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id say for the most part, those foals were lost for factors outside of control of the owner, old mares obviously hard to get to hold the foal, mares could pick up a cold for 48 hours and lose it, plus the fetus' that are aborted due to genetic incompatibilities / issues
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Last edited by Ziggy; 12-23-2011 at 02:34 PM.
G'day Buster,Originally Posted by buster
I can't agree with you there.
Save a Lightning Strike, Meteorite or an Alien Abduction, the vast majority of factors that cause the loss of pregnancies, of mares during gestation and the loss of foals at or very soon after birth most definately lie within the scope of influence of Owners.
In terms of mare and foal loss at the point of birth in particular, you would be absolutely amazed by the number of mares that are run like cattle, left to their own devices to foal all alone in a paddock some place & so on and you'd be further amazed by who does it.
As for the older mares, there's nothing obvious about it at all.
There is in fact no physical reason why they cannot keep on producing successfully well into their 20's. Generally speaking it is only hard to get them in foal and to hold on to a pregnancy if you don't look after them properly throughout their entire reproductive life and especially so prior to & after they're bred. I'd even go so far as to suggest that the vast majority of those difficult to get in foal older mares are in fact man made.
For example...we've got a well into her 20's mare that as of this season has had 14 foals in a row and is carrying her 15th. She has never once missed & in the last two seasons as a 22yo & 23 yo has gone PTIF with just one service on her foal heat.
The trick with her is to pay attention to her teeth, to her feet and above all else, to rug her during the winter time so she doesn't drop any condition. Easy as pie.
Genetic incompatibilities most certainly do exist in horses as they do in so many other creatures including human beings... but looking at it logically they'd account for a mere fraction of the overall 13.7% annual loss.
It's all about Husbandry.
Given the widespread use of semen transport here in Australia, if almost 75% of all mares served annually end up going in foal then I think that is a damned good result & if we got up closer to 80% then it would be outstanding.
I honestly don't think we could ever get up much beyond that save us going back to all mares being served on farm which will never happen obviously.
Something additional to the above and the previous has just occurred to me as I write this. If almost 75% of all mares served go in foal (in 2009/2010 it was 6299) and from those only 5,197 live foals resulted, that means the loss is in fact even larger that the 13.7% discrepancy between almost 75% and 61.7% that I've been banging on about.
The loss is not 13.7% at all. It is in fact 17.5% i.e. 6299 mares that were PTIF for final result of 5,197 Live Foals. Think about it. That's fast closing in on 1 in 5 mares to go in foal don't produce a Live Foal. That's way too high to be explained away by factors that are beyond the infleunce/control of Breeders.
Good morning or Good evening? TripleV123,
At what stage of pregnancy did the mares absorb, slip or abort is very important information when looking at the now17.5%,
these factors are less likely IMO to be caused by the owner. generallyFoals deaths at the time of birth, hours after or days after the breeders and or caretakers in most cases have to take the blame.
All factors have to be taken into account when finding out the reason for the 17.5% loss.
Last edited by justdoit; 03-09-2011 at 09:57 PM.
G'day justdoit,
That's fair comment. I don't think the entire 17.5% is as a result of lax Husbandry practices, it would be absurd to suggest such a thing, but I am certain that a very large slab of it is.
I think yours is a great idea but a huge problem arises in working out at what stage the mares lost their pregnancies after they're pronounced In Foal because quite often they're speared off into a paddock and there they remain and unless they start to swell at the appropriate time nobdoy realises they have slipped. That aside, there is no escaping the fact that once a mare goes in foal that is the Sire's job done. Everything beyond that is under the influence of the Mare/Breeder.
Last edited by triplev123; 03-10-2011 at 06:05 PM. Reason: forgot an 'at'
Hi TripleV123,
I agree with you.
Also it would be good to see a sires list with the number of runners from each crop 1st/2yrolds, 2nd/3yrolds etc with the number of live foals produced included in the list
Did you ask someone else on this forum to contribute to this discussion?
Good point. I would like to see that information displayed as well but that would be elsewhere on a Sires Earnings List. Interestingly it is shown on the NZ Sires Earnings Lists but not the Australian version. Buggered if I know why. Of course, the stuff I'm banging on about above and previous is entirely Sire's Fertility List applicable.Two seperate areas but BOTH in need of some serious overhauling.
In answer to your question, yeh...I asked the one and only Mightymo...but to be fair, work wise he has been loaded up like a Greek Donkey of late. Perhaps he will favour us with his thoughts once he stops long enough to be able to sit down.
C'mon Mightymo, you're not getting out of it that easily.
Do you agree that the current Sires Fertility List requires a complete overhaul...or not?
Hi Justdoit
Just reading your post from a week ago regarding the sire's list and number of runners from each crop 2/3yr old's and number of live foals produced that year. That would be great it would give people more of an idea on actually how good these stallion's are and how many starters they are getting early on. Bettor's is a great sire and has 2/3yr old's flying but some people don't know he served 540 mare's in his 1st season, 273 2nd season and 449 his 3rd season off hand i'm not to sure how many live foals there are. Live foals/starters/winner's would give breeder's more of an idea when selecting stallion's.
G'day Mango,
Unlike NZ, the fact that the current Australian 2yo & 3yo Sires Earnings List & the 2yo & 3yo Individual Winners List do not make note of the number of foals each sire has in the given season's crop is nothing short of deplorable.
For example, here in Australia last season Art Major & Bettor's Delight were virtually line ball on the size of their respective 2yo crops. This season here in Australia you'll find Art Major has the best part of 3 times as many 2yos as does Bettor's Delight...I think the numbers are something in the vicinity of 220 vs 80. Now because that information is not freely available anywhere who amongst observers could possibly be expected to know that last season's picture and this season's picture on the 2yo Sires Lists here in Australia are vastly different by way of a simple function of numbers? Foal crop figures should be clearly noted on all such lists. The Kiwis do so...and we should do likewise.
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