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Thread: Frozen Semen v Fresh Semen

  1. #11
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteblood View Post
    In Australia,

    Muscles Yankee is sire of 32 foals of racing age, total earnings is $1.38 million, average earnings is $43k, winners include Let Me Thru $453k, Lord of The Gym $262k, Down Under Muscles $217k, Magic Interest $142k
    SJ's Photo is sire of 65 foals of racing age, total earnings is $3.05 million, average earnings is $47k, winners include A Touch of Flair $569k, Bad Boy Paparazzi $419k, Elegant Image $223k, Marong $220k, Just Glorious $191k, Flase Gem $178k, Zesta $143k, Calder Sensation $143k
    Pine Chip is sire of 4 foals, total earnings is $502k, average earnings is $125k, winners include Sumthingaboutmaori $461k
    Artsplace is sire of 51 foals of racing age, total ewarnings of $1.78 million, average earnings of $37k, winners include Flightpath $290k, Guaranteed $243k, Veranjee $211k, Governor Art $188k, Dougs Place $162k
    Western Hanover is sre of 17 foals, total earnings of $1.00 million, average earnings of $59k, winners include Camlach $367k, Petousa $180k, Wild Wild West $136k
    Grinfromeartoear is sire of 26 foals by frozen semen, winners include Make Me Smile $517k, Kyalla Dreamtime $136k, Karloo Titian $104k


    Bettors Delight frozen semen progeny include HIghview Tommy $1006k, Bettor's Strike $890kl, Emjayem Grand $389k, Percy The Punter $332k, Vegas Bound $274k
    Life Sign frozen semen progeny include For Dear Life $322k, Real Life $308k, Money Twitch $345k, Akido Whitby $270k, Life In The Fast Lane $264k, Way of Life $238k, Mister Anthony $231k

    Who thinks these stallions would have done better with fresh semen ? Not me.
    Trevor, those same stallions just havnt cut it in Nz

    Western Hanover-----21 foals ----No $100,000 earners

    Life Sign----232 foals---- 2 $100,000 earners

    Pine Chip----14 foals----No $100,000 earners

    SJs Photo----33 foals--- 1 $100,000 earners

    Artsplace----154foals----6$100,000 earners

    Muscles Yankee--86---- 2 $100,000 earners

    Every stallion listed above has underperformed in Nz compared to North America. And the difference is huge.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year mightymo will become famous soon enough
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    I dont know how to explain the reason for it, but that doesnt mean frozen semen hasnt been as good, it just hasnt been any good in NZ.

    Clearly in Aust frozen semen has been every bit as successful as fresh semen

  3. #13
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Agree Harvey. There seems to be major differences between the two countries. Very difficult to explain how that could be.

  4. #14
    Senior Member 4YO eliteblood has a spectacular aura about eliteblood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viv Strangman View Post
    Agree Harvey. There seems to be major differences between the two countries. Very difficult to explain how that could be.
    I think there are a couple of things to note :

    When you are looking at NZ results and suggesting that Muscles Yankee for example has only one horse of note, you are missing horses exported to Australia, including another top class trotter in Skyvalley. Besides Twist and Twirl, Artsplace has sired in NZ horses like Strike Up The Band $204k, Flles Like Magic $169k, Sir Artsplace $166k, Jacka Twain $161k.

    When evaluating the performance of Artsplace and his 154 NZ bred foals, keep in mind that they are racing against large crops of foals by Christian Cullen, Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Art Major. Don't underestimate how good these stallions are. These horses are world class with BD, MT and AM currently 1st, 4th and 6th in the current season all aged standings. Note also, it is a long time since Artsplace dominated the northern hemisphere breeding scene.
    Last edited by eliteblood; 05-16-2013 at 09:45 PM.

  5. #15
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Trevor, they didnt race against the large crops of BD--MT or AM. They raced against the ITP, CC, FS. And not very well im afraid. The four horses you mentioned were not classic horses. The term we use in Nz is intermediate grade which pretty much sums up his record in Nz. At the time he was widely used in Nz , he was the leading sire in North America for several years. He just didnt reproduce anything like that in Nz.

  6. #16
    Senior Member 4YO eliteblood has a spectacular aura about eliteblood's Avatar
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    Artsplace live foal numbers in NZ were 2004 (16), 2005 (29), 2006 (20), 2007 (23), 2008 (44).
    Although he was leading sire in NA in 97, 98, 99, 00, 02 and 03, at the time he was being used down here and falling short of expectations, he had also curiously stopped producing top horses in USA.
    If you think Artsplace was disappointing, have a look at Abercrombie's results in Australia, also a leading NA sire on several occasions, bred to the best of the best broodmares in Australia.
    I've bred quiet a number of frozen semen foals (Abercrombie, Artsplace, Jenna's Beach Boy, Western Hanover, Somebeachsomewhere, Life Sign, Bettors Delight, Grinfromeartoear, Artiscape, Arturo) and my personal results have been very poor so I understand where you are coming from. I don't however hold "frozen semen" responsible. There are plenty of good results achieved by other stallions to indicate to me that frozen semen works as well as fresh semen and that the disappointing results of Artsplace and Abercrombie in particular were just two of breeding mysteries. You don't know that they would have done any better in the flesh, none of the ones who have subsequently come out have performed any differently to what they did as frozen semen sires.
    Incidentally, the same knock used to exist in the early days of artificial insemination with the old school arguing that the offspring were somehow inferior to those conceived by natural breeding.

  7. #17
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Its just that the record here in Nz is so poor. Their will always be sires who dont cross here for some unknown reason. But the difference between the results achieved in Australia and that achieved in Nz with frozen semen are poles apart. Why i have no idea at all. But the facts here dont lie. Anything new in this industry will always attract its share of knockers but frozen semen has been around for ages now but in Nz the knock hasnt gone away

  8. #18
    Junior Member Foal Simple One will become famous soon enough
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    Another Artspalce

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteblood View Post
    I think there are a couple of things to note :

    When you are looking at NZ results and suggesting that Muscles Yankee for example has only one horse of note, you are missing horses exported to Australia, including another top class trotter in Skyvalley. Besides Twist and Twirl, Artsplace has sired in NZ horses like Strike Up The Band $204k, Flles Like Magic $169k, Sir Artsplace $166k, Jacka Twain $161k.

    When evaluating the performance of Artsplace and his 154 NZ bred foals, keep in mind that they are racing against large crops of foals by Christian Cullen, Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Art Major. Don't underestimate how good these stallions are. These horses are world class with BD, MT and AM currently 1st, 4th and 6th in the current season all aged standings. Note also, it is a long time since Artsplace dominated the northern hemisphere breeding scene.
    Another Artsplace is Carpenters Daughter $168k

  9. #19
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple One View Post
    Another Artsplace is Carpenters Daughter $168k
    She is one of the six $100,000 winners to have been bred and raced in Nz from his 154 live foals.I am sure the breeders of those 154 foals were hoping Artsplace would leave a colt like Art Major 2.7m--Grinfromeartoear1.7m--Sportswriter1.5m--Artiscape1.4m-- Dreamaway1.3m or a filly like Worldly Beauty1.9m--Glowing Report1.9m-- Galliera1.8m--Steinams Place1.4m--Armbro Amoretto1.2m. For a stallion that left 44 in 1:50 and 17 millionaires in North America, his record of 6 $100,000 winners in Nz is not an indication of what a sensational sire he was.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viv Strangman View Post
    She is one of the six $100,000 winners to have been bred and raced in Nz from his 154 live foals.I am sure the breeders of those 154 foals were hoping Artsplace would leave a colt like Art Major 2.7m--Grinfromeartoear1.7m--Sportswriter1.5m--Artiscape1.4m-- Dreamaway1.3m or a filly like Worldly Beauty1.9m--Glowing Report1.9m-- Galliera1.8m--Steinams Place1.4m--Armbro Amoretto1.2m. For a stallion that left 44 in 1:50 and 17 millionaires in North America, his record of 6 $100,000 winners in Nz is not an indication of what a sensational sire he was.
    [VVV] Adios/Abercrombie/Artsplace blood has never really taken hold in NZ...certainly to nowhere near the extent that it has fired here in AUS. You could level the same critique in reverse insofar as Direct Scooter blood is concerned. That has invariably fired in NZ whilst to date it has largely not done so here in Australia. So great has been the relative disparity in siring performance of that sireline that it's very possible the great Somebeachsomewhere will end up producing his best of his Southern Hemisphere bred offspring as a result of fresh chilled semen exported from AUS to NZ.

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