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Thread: Sires 13/14

  1. #91
    Member Yearling hillbillydeluxe will become famous soon enough
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    That's rather critical of a horse that only had 8 starts before injury and when he won it was in the snow. like a lot of horses we never get to see them extend any ability as there careers are short lived.

  2. #92
    Member Yearling hillbillydeluxe will become famous soon enough
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    I kind of liken him to Dane Shadow in the thoroughbreds who took the siring caper well yet himself a reasonable horse but bred by Danehill/Slight Chance it seems as though the mare really came through on that pedigree.

  3. #93
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    You cannot compare thoroughbreds stallions with standardbred stallions for god's sake. They have no AI, no frozen semen and don't shuttle half their top stallions with a result that a lot of thoroughbred breeders breed to poorly performed half brothers to champions in the Southern Hemisphere with less than adequate results. Standardbred breeders have access to the very best stallions in the world. Why on earth would you want to breed to a poorly performed half brother to a champion when you can breed to the real thing. As I said earlier the days of breeding to horses such as the one you mentioned ended the day we started shuttling horses such as Mach Three and Art Major. You can't turn the clock back now.

  4. #94
    Super Moderator Stallion Richard prior will become famous soon enough Richard prior's Avatar
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    Sorry Michael but I totally agree with Viv on this one, That would be turning back the clock for standardbred breeders, We have a choice of the very best stallions, Art Major, Mach Three, Bettor's Delight etc and performance on the track and in the barn makes a huge difference these days, In the past we would have had a choice of going to a lesser performed and well related stallion but mostly this turned into a disaster for a lot of breeders. I'm all for personal preference with stallion choices but when you have access to the very best, You increase the odds of breeding a very good horse.

  5. #95
    Member Gelding broco will become famous soon enough
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    Have to agree with viv there you cant compare TB stallions to SB stallions in just doesnt work.
    I think my all time favourite stallion christian cullen is a good example, he has 2 lesser performed full brothers in tiger woods and julius caesar, neither top sires like their brother although julius caesar has done a good job, the brother that won a race in tiger woods never got hot, there is also a half brother racing round bathurst hes by artsplace and gelded, just goes to show that even though your brother is a super star doesnt mean you deserve a shot as a sire.
    I myself will stand a cullen son this season but im under no illusion that he may attract a single outside mare but he is perfect for my own mares, rather well performed, nz group winner, his sister is the dam of the all time great trotter in Lyell Creek, but his stand out qualities to me is a temperament to die for and the sensational good looks of his sire just in a bigger package, standing stallions is a very tough game and unless you have one of the top liners ready yourself for disappointment or breed for yourself and the outside mares are a bonus.

    When the likes of sportswriter has done what he has with his 2yos and stands at a reasonable fee its gotta be good to compete

  6. #96
    Member Yearling hillbillydeluxe will become famous soon enough
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    that doesn't make any sense- if they are genetically full brothers they have identical chromosomes etc the difference is the type of mares that book to them. in science any animal that shares identic blood would breed the same but horses are different as the same mare for example has not been to Christian Cullen and the Julius Caesar and the big difference is say Christian Cullen serves 100 mares and his fertility is 85% then 85 are foaled on the other hand Julius Caesar has much lower fertility at 65% and serves 100 mares he has 65 foaled approx. so numbers are different due to fertility.
    The fact remains that the stallions that are full brothers are genetically the same have not served the same mares so you cannot compare results with progeny.
    I am guessing Monique that you are standing Christian Fire? if so he just does not get sent mares of any quality which will reflect in progeny. As for saying breeding with better stallions you pay $9k for a good stallion or say $6k but its hypothetical on your belief as if a sire has never served any mares how can you predict his progeny.
    The only relevance is what opportunity does he receive? any sire must get his chance with decent or quality mares to measure his worth.

  7. #97
    Member Yearling hillbillydeluxe will become famous soon enough
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    Also in saying that Sportswriter has done what he has that is fantastic but how do we not know that a son of or a brother can not replicate. its just too hard to say that but as the better stallions also get the better quality mares yes it solidifies that they remain in the top bracket but you cannot judge any sire until he has served a book of mares as how can one predict what there progeny will do, no one has a crystal ball and if the industry won't support hobby breeders the commercial studs keep rolling on, everyone has to have individual choice.
    You have an opinion and I have mine I am happy to breed my horses to whatever and you breed yours to your choice thats the simplicity in it,Yes its hard to stand a stallion but hey at least I will have a go and worst case scenario my mares will be served by my stallion which is not a bad thing as "I sing, I did it my way" good luck to whatever you choose.

  8. #98
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillbillydeluxe View Post
    that doesn't make any sense- if they are genetically full brothers they have identical chromosomes etc the difference is the type of mares that book to them. in science any animal that shares identic blood would breed the same but horses are different as the same mare for example has not been to Christian Cullen and the Julius Caesar and the big difference is say Christian Cullen serves 100 mares and his fertility is 85% then 85 are foaled on the other hand Julius Caesar has much lower fertility at 65% and serves 100 mares he has 65 foaled approx. so numbers are different due to fertility.
    The fact remains that the stallions that are full brothers are genetically the same have not served the same mares so you cannot compare results with progeny.
    I am guessing Monique that you are standing Christian Fire? if so he just does not get sent mares of any quality which will reflect in progeny. As for saying breeding with better stallions you pay $9k for a good stallion or say $6k but its hypothetical on your belief as if a sire has never served any mares how can you predict his progeny.
    The only relevance is what opportunity does he receive? any sire must get his chance with decent or quality mares to measure his worth.
    I am sorry Michael that is just not the way it works in the real world. The great stallions leave quality horses regardless of the quality of the mares. When Christian Cullen went to stud their was a real antipathy towards colonial bred stallions.His numbers and the quality of those mares was low initially but he left outstanding horses anyway. When he received bigger numbers and better quality, the resultant stock weren't any better than his initial stock.

  9. #99
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillbillydeluxe View Post
    Also in saying that Sportswriter has done what he has that is fantastic but how do we not know that a son of or a brother can not replicate. its just too hard to say that but as the better stallions also get the better quality mares yes it solidifies that they remain in the top bracket but you cannot judge any sire until he has served a book of mares as how can one predict what there progeny will do, no one has a crystal ball and if the industry won't support hobby breeders the commercial studs keep rolling on, everyone has to have individual choice.
    You have an opinion and I have mine I am happy to breed my horses to whatever and you breed yours to your choice thats the simplicity in it,Yes its hard to stand a stallion but hey at least I will have a go and worst case scenario my mares will be served by my stallion which is not a bad thing as "I sing, I did it my way" good luck to whatever you choose.
    I don't how long you have been in this industry Michael but the advice offered here is given with the best of intentions from a lot of people who have been there ,done that.
    I have done something similar to what you are proposing.
    In 1997 I managed a stallion in New Zealand called Make A Deal. He was a lovely looking individual and bred in the purple being by No Nukes from the brilliant mare Leah Almahurst $1,000,000+. He had run 1;50.2 and won $610,000 on the track. I worked my arse off and got him 100+ mares in his first year but got out after that as I didnt like the type of horse he was leaving. He stood four years in New Zealand and was a huge failure. He had one $100,000 winner from 293 live foals and his stock in general couldn't stay a yard. That caused me to have a real negative view when Make A Deals half brother went to stud in North America. I told everyone who would listen that there was no way he could succeed. Unfortunately for me, at last count his half brother Western Ideal had $92,000,000 on his card and counting.
    There are no certainties in this industry but the old saying breed the best to the best and hope for the best has a lot going for it.

  10. #100
    Member Gelding broco will become famous soon enough
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    How can you get christian fire from lyell creeks direct family?
    As for he wont see quality my small band of mares are some that many big breeders envy so im sure even if he does only see my own mares if hes got it in him he'll have every chance to prove himself.
    And as for the they are full brothers so given the same book they would have the same results thats been proven wrong so many times, as you like to compare to the thoroughbreds here is a great example lonhro and niello both given great starts to stud careers 1 succeeded and the other was very disappointing, so just because they are brothers does not give a horse a guarantee of being a good sire

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