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Thread: Sires 13/14

  1. #21
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    I have found it interesting (and will continue to) watching the fortunes of sires like Artistic Fella, Four Starzz and Mr Big who made there names as monster free for allers. So often you here their siring credentials potted as being a free for aller. I really think this current group will go a long way to dispelling any of these concerns. I loved watching Mr Big and Artistic Fella race. We are going to get a lot more free for allers as the sires out here now. We will see comes to mind as one that looks like venturing out this year.

  2. #22
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple V View Post
    [VVV] G'day Tony. I'd be very surpised if he served many mares here & by that I mean that if he exceeds 20 for mine he's doing well.
    The reasons why the horse got his arse handed to him during the QLD ID and then got it handed to him again when he went to the US aside....I think it all comes down to the fact that if his connections had instead left Mark Purdon alone and allowed him to manage the horse's career...they'd have ended up with a much better result over the longer term.
    Added to that....for crying out loud...the excuse machine that followed his every step, breath & crap. JESUS WEPT! If anyone set out to get the people to start shouting BULLSHIT! from the grandstands no better road map for achieving that could've possibly been produced.

    Grant makes a very good point above.
    Artistic Fella has made an excellent debut here and they give every indication to me that they will go on as 3yos & beyond.
    Racehorse wise, no contest. Artistic Fella was the real deal, a 3-headed Gorilla. Auckland Reactor wouldn't have known which way he went. No contest there.
    One thing though. Although all we have to judge a potential sire on when he heads to stud is of course his racetrack career, in the end they all become Non-Winners again in the Breeding Barn.
    A truly great sire will overcome all, small books of mixed quality mares, a lack of opportunity for their progeny, the lot.
    Consider Christian Cullen & Elsu as examples. Both terrific racehorses. Christian Cullen's initial opportunities were by no means luxurious but he overcame. Elsu's initial opportunities were far better in terms of overall mare quality and numbers but he did little or one nothing. They've either got it or they haven't.
    . Artistic Fella a 3-headed gorilla- you are joking. Can't be the same Artistic Fella I saw in the flesh in the Breeders Crown elim and final. Beaten and well beaten both times. A lovely racehorse but having seen both in the flesh I don't know how you can honestly say he was that much better than Auckland Reactor. And at best he has made a promising start to his siring career. From 80+ foals, he has 2 really nice fillies and bugger all else. In Nz he was that highly regarded he served 9 mares. There is a prevailing mood these days in both Nz +Aust to judge horses on how they perform in your own back yard. I am as guilty of it as any one else. My opinion of Artistic Fella was based on what I saw in the flesh. Mr Feelgood is another who suffers from not performing to the same level everywhere he raced. Outstanding in both the Usa+Aust but an 11 start non winner in Nz. For what ever reason Mr Feelgood just didnt race anywhere near his true ability in Nz. Do you write him off as a sire prospect in Nz?. No but it does play a part when assessing potential sires for the coming season. Auckland Reactor draws exactly the same reaction from Australians as Mr Feelgood does from Kiwis. What they saw in their backyard was not at the same level as he performed in Nz or to the level they expected. So they rate him accordingly. I saw him race in Nz numerous times and have no doubt that Auckland Reactor during his 3+4yr old campaigns in Nz was very very special. As good as anything to race here in my lifetime. And that will be reflected in the number of mares he serves this year in Nz. I have no doubt he will serve a 200+ book in Nz. Pricing him at $3000 was an invitation most Nz breeders will struggle to refuse. And in Aust - At that price he will serve more than 20 but no where near what he will serve on this side of the Tasman. The one thing I had a query about was his fertility but when I spoke to Alabar they assured me that a part of the reason for pricing him at $3000 was they were very confident that he would handle a large book with ease. The one thing i would completely agree with Jamie is that stallions have either got it or they havn't.
    Last edited by teecee; 06-20-2013 at 08:34 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Viv I'm pretty sure Artistic Fella is still at Empire... Also, AR failed sensationally at two out of three places he went to. Mr FG failed at one out of three, and hardly as disgustingly as AR did he when he had heat applied. These things stick in Aussies minds. I thought 20 mares at best in Aus and NZ!

  4. #24
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Well Grant , i love to have a gamble. You name the amount and i'm in. How many mares will Auckland Reactor serve in NZ+Aust. I'm picking 250+ and your picking 40. Closest to the right figure takes the money. And Grant , Mr Feelgood was an 11 start maiden in Nz. Auckland Reactor had 11 starts in Aust. Difference is he won 5 of his 11 starts. So if winning 5 of 11 is a "sensational failure" what does that make Mr Feelgood.

  5. #25
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Viv my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek with that statement. I am well aware of the blind faith of kiwis!! That alone should see him serve 20. But here in Aus we tend to remember the horrific fails in all group 1s he contested on this side of he ditch and the lowly graded races he got licked in the us. Auckland Reactor is individually responsible for setting back the general consensus of the quality of Australian racing in the US around 50years. Him solely costing Blackie no 5 will see an entire state of Queensland avoid him like the Black Plague. I've labelled kiwis blindly faithful, queenslanders are worse! The timing of his fails leads one to believe he was a horse with not the best of constitutions. His interdom efforts were appalling.
    Feelgood may be a sensational failure in nz but he has been more than a sensational success in two other countries rather than dominating age class racing and some ffas as a 4yo in the north island of nz. Needless to say, my mares won't meet him!

  6. #26
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    Come on Grant . Put your money up. I know no Australian rates a kiwi horse. If you listen to any Australian , our racing is weak, our horses overated, ect, ect. Maybe it was a poor lot AR was beating. Depends how you rate ITMQ, Changeover, Monkey King. All the same our poor kiwi breds will just keep winning those Australian classics every week. There is an old saying in Nz with regards to Australians and racing horses there; You never win their respect ,just their money.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Hey Viv,

    Mate, if you're going to take a swing...at least try to keep your eye on the ball eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viv Strangman View Post
    Jamie, you are sarting to sound like a PR spokesperson for Pepper Tree. Artistic Fella a 3-headed gorilla- you are joking.
    [VVV] He stands at Empire.... and no Viv, I'm not joking. 1:49 & a piece over 1 & 1/4miles is not for mine the effort of a single-headed gorilla.

    Can't be the same Artistic Fella I saw in the flesh in the Breeders Crown elim and final. Beaten and well beaten both times.
    [VVV] Bzzzzzz. He won the Breeders Crown Final in 1:49.4.

    A lovely racehorse but having seen both in the flesh I don't know how you can honestly say he was that much better than Auckland Reactor.

    If you lined them up side by side, physically there is also no comparison. Artistic Fella is a very imposing individual. Auckland Reactor is not.

    And at best he has made a promising start to his siring career. From 80+ foals, he has 2 really nice fillies and bugger all else.
    [VVV] In terms of numbers & mare quality, from relatively limited opportunities as compared to his contemporaries he has 80 current 2yo foals, 9 individual 2yo winners, 5 of them in 2:00.7 or faster & a season's leading $$$ earning & fastest (1:55.4) 2yo filly in AUS. Incidentally that's the 4th fastest mile paced by a 2yo thus far this season & it's easily the fastest paced by a 2yo filly this season. Not bad.

    In Nz he was that highly regarded he served 9 mares.
    [VVV] Ahuh. Well Viv, getting down to tin tacks here....
    I'd have to seriously question NZ breeding decisions at any time as being anything even remotely approaching that which could be termed as being a reliable indicator of subsequent siring success let alone being anything that any AUS breeder should seek to hang their hats upon.
    Not so long ago NZ breeders lined up in their droves & they sent a swag of good mares & some very good mares to Elsu and ended up with nothing to show for it whatsoever.

    There is a prevailing mood these days in both Nz +Aust to judge horses on how they perform in your own back yard. I am as guilty of it as any one else. My opinion of Artistic Fella was based on what I saw in the flesh.
    [VVV] I'm a bit confused here Viv.
    In your own back yard? I think maybe you're confusing the horse with another.
    Artistic Fella won 7 or 8 straight, maybe more, in deep & against the best around as a 3yo at The Meadowlands. Do you live in New Jersey?
    As I recall The Meadowlands thought so much of the horse when he retired they gave him an official send off.
    To my knowledge Artistic Fella has never once set foot in anger on any racetrack anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere, NZ or AUS....although I recall he may have been taken to Shepparton & paraded one night soon after his arrival in Australia.

    Mr Feelgood is another who suffers from not performing to the same level everywhere he raced. Outstanding in both the Usa+Aust but an 11 start non winner in Nz.
    For what ever reason Mr Feelgood just didnt race anywhere near his true ability in Nz.
    [VVV] Wasn't discussing him...although I recall that when he arrived here in Australia from NZ for the first time, physically he looked terrible and his feet were a disgrace. The horse raced infinitely better & more successfully when he went back under Luke's care, recording close-up 2nds to ITMQ, Smoken Up etc. in big $$$ races.

    Do you write him off as a sire prospect in Nz?.
    [VVV] No, however...to be frank, who really cares what happens/will happen in NZ these days? It is irrelevant & increasingly so.
    It has been quite a while now since a NZ Stud has put their hand in their pocket and secured a genuine top shelf, high profile straight off the race track horse. Think about it.
    In the general time frame as the likes of Rock N Roll Heaven, Sportswriter, Shadow Play, Somebeachsomewhere, Rocknroll Hanover, Artistic Fella etc. have come to stand stud here AUS...Big Jim was the single notable import to NZ.


    No but it does play a part when assessing potential sires for the coming season.
    [VVV] Mr Feelgood has been available for a while now & winners wise he already has a few runs on the board. I would have thought you'd assess him on that?

    Auckland Reactor draws exactly the same reaction from Australians as Mr Feelgood does from Kiwis. What they saw in their backyard was not at the same level as he performed in Nz or to the level they expected. So they rate him accordingly.
    [VVV] For a horse of his calibre & ownership Mr Feelgood was not in particularly good shape when he arrived here for the first time from NZ, moving from his NZ trainer to Luke MCarthy. The apparent level of care that had been lavished upon him over there appeared to leave much to be desired. He raced infinitely better here in Australia and went back over to NZ under the care of an Australian Trainer and raced infinitely better than he had raced when first in NZ under the care of an NZ trainer. Imagine that eh?

    I saw him race in Nz numerous times and have no doubt that Auckland Reactor during his 3+4yr old campaigns in Nz was very very special. As good as anything to race here in my lifetime. And that will be reflected in the number of mares he serves this year in Nz.
    [VVV] The question initially asked was how many mares he might serve in AUS. As I said above, who cares what he does or does not do in NZ. You guys jumped on the Elsu bandwagon too & got left holding steaming bags of the brown stuff.


    I have no doubt he will serve a 200+ book in Nz. Pricing him at $3000 was an invitation most Nz breeders will struggle to refuse.
    [VVV] Viv, for someone given to reading between the lines such as myself, that means things are a bit tight $$ wise, the NZ Studs have set the standard by looking inwards to fill their Rosters and the Scottish Presbyterian heritage of so many of our breeders will take the tip/similarly come to the fore.

    And in Aust - At that price he will serve more than 20 but no where near what he will serve on this side of the Tasman.
    [VVV] Rightly or wrongly... and largely through no fault of his own, the horse a potential sire profile that's on par with a Bondi Cigar. If he serves more than 20 mares here I'd be stunned.

    The one thing I had a query about was his fertility but when I spoke to Alabar they assured me that a part of the reason for pricing him at $3000 was they were very confident that he would handle a large book with ease.
    [VVV] Good luck to them. They did the same with Elsu and with Gotta Go Cullect now that I think of it. If the horse has it he will do it. Glad it's not my money just the same.

    The one thing i would completely agree with Jamie is that stallions have either got it or they havn't.
    [VVV] Common ground at last.
    VVV
    Last edited by teecee; 06-20-2013 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Stick to the topic please. No personals here

  8. #28
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    You guys are getting a bit precious Tony. I thought the Macular Degeneration and Glaucoma aspects where pretty funny and introduced to underline a point. As I said to you in the PM, anyone who thinks that Artistic Fella and Auckland Reactor are comparable physically/type wise needs their eyes examined. It's like standing Hulk Hogan next to a Pipe Cleaner.

  9. #29
    Member Yearling Shannon will become famous soon enough
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    Auckland Reactor is and was a machine. He'll make it. Well priced at 3k

  10. #30
    Senior Member 2YO Viv Strangman will become famous soon enough
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    [QUOTE=Triple V;27350]Hey Viv,

    Mate, if you're going to take a swing...at least try to keep your eye on the ball eh?

    Hey Jamie,
    Just need to correct some of less than accurate comments in your last post. Lets start with Artistic Fella

    Artistic Fella -- I saw him race in North America but not at his base in New Jersey but at the Breeders Crown at Woodbine as a 3yr old. He had his three headed gorilla suit on finishing a great 5th in his heat and an outstanding 6th in the final. In fact he only raced outside New Jersey 3 times as a 3yr old and missed the winners circle 3 times. One thing that has always intrigued me about Artistic Fella is why in his whole 52 start career he never started on a 1/2 mile track. Sure there was a good reason. I have seen both Artistic Fella and Auckland Reactor in the flesh up close and struggle bigtime to see the enormous difference you profess to see. I am just tracking down a recent photo I saw of Auckland Reactor and will post it alongside one of Artistic Fella so the readers can make their own mind up. As for his stud record, to produce one quality filly from 80 foals with the 2yr old racing structure you have in Australia is way short of "Not Bad".

    Mr Feelgood--I read in your post that when he first arrived in Australia from Nz he looked terrible and his feet were a disgrace. His feet must have just hung together long enough and his condition improved just enough on that first trip because in those 7 starts he won a Hunter Cup and an Inter- Dominion for the Butt brothers. Twice in your post you mention Mr Feelgood was in terrible condition when moved to Luke MCarthy. Why you felt it necessary to blacken the name of two of the most respected and professional horsemen in the world is beyond me but I think it is a sad relection on the writer rather than Tim or Ants. And the fact still remains that even under Luke MCarthy, Mr Feelgood is still a non winner in Nz.

    Sires-- I see that you have decided that Nz is becoming irrelevant because we haven't brought any new stallions straight off the track recently. I presume you mean Southern Hemisphere breeding rights as all the horses you mention are shuttles. It is simply a matter of the size of the market. We will be lucky to serve 3000 mares in Nz this season and you could not make an economic case for bringing sires such as Artistic Fella, Sportswriter or Shadow Play to Nz. They just wouldn't get the mares to make it worth while. As an example Shadow Play has been available to Nz breeders for the last 3 years but has served just over 60 mares in total in that time. Now I think he is a real chance of making it as a sire but until he has serious runs on the board he won't get large numbers in Nz. Sires such as SBSW and RNRH will always attract breeders regardless of where they stand. 75Nz breeders used SBSW last year. What makes it tough for new sires in Nz is we have Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Christian Cullen already established . Not only do they dominate the Nz sire scene but they hold 3 of the top 4 positions on the Australian sires list. Throw in up and comers such as American Ideal and Jeremes Jet and newcomers such as Big Jim, Changeover and Auckland Reactor and we are travelling just fine on this side of the Tasman. If I was an Australian breeder I would be really concerned that Nz based sires dominate your sires list and that 13 of the top 20 stake earners in Australia have that irrelevant tag of Nz beside their name.

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