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Thread: cobalt

  1. #671
    Senior Member Colt Chariots will become famous soon enough
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    Ray Coote
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    Jack, still waiting for you to explain why other jurisdictions have also taken a stance against Cobalt when you apparently think they do not have the supporting evidence to do so.

    Full credit to Reid Sanders for being proactive and taking the lead in Australia on this issue.

  2. #672
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link Kevin , that was actually a decent article. Weather Cobalt is performance enhancing or not is irrelevant. It's a banned substance , Hrv and all racing bodies have the right to ban any substance they like. They don't have to prove its effects . We all agree to abide by their rules when we join the sport.
    If Cobalt didn't improve performance people wouldn't be using it !
    Don't die wondering !

  3. #673
    Senior Member 2YO Pena will become famous soon enough
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    Kevin, you obviously totally miss the point I am trying to make with regards treatment of horses. The facts are one of HRNSW platforms for introducing a limit is animal welfare. The facts are, and HRNSW own research shows it that a horse treated with an approved supplement if tested close to treatment will get over 200 so the animal welfare line added to examples like Luda, the animal welfare angle is just a big furfee, used to justify ones argument.
    Quite frankly I have no time for any of Patrick Bartley's articles. I personally do not think he even likes racing. To start with why would Racing NSW appoint a judge to the hearing. I will give you the tip, its because of the current Supreme Court case with McDowell and Day, not as he states the seriousness of the charges. Who would have thought that Racing NSW would want to make sure their decisions were legally binding.
    Rick I am not sure how you maintain that performance is not relevant?? I suggest you read HRNSW penalty guidelines.
    http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=18370
    Their penalty guidelines even state that it is relevant!!
    I think it is important that the stewards understand their role. Their job is to enforce the rules as they stand. When stewards step outside and there have been plenty of cases in the past of stewards doing this, normally for the wrong reason but they are also responsible to enforce the rules for the perceived reason. If one innocent person is punished because of the lack of research and evidence I am sorry that is too much for me.
    Notwithstanding the issue of improved performance etc. the penalty simply doesn't fit the crime. US trainer got a number of days, Kevin Moses pleaded not guilty - 12 months, Harness Racing in NSW, plead guilty and get 2.5 to 3 years, why the big difference?? If you read the penalty guidelines and tell me how Cobalt given as a vitamin supplement is a Class 1 then, ask yourself why??

  4. #674
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    That list is 3 years old Jack and it states potential to affect performance. Cobalt does have a potential to affect performance. They don't have to prove it. If you can't play by the rules get out of the game. Stewards have not stepped outside the rules in the Cobalt cases. They have set a limit and are enforcing it .
    Why are you so keen to use Cobalt ?
    Don't die wondering !

  5. #675
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pena View Post
    Kevin, you obviously totally miss the point I am trying to make with regards treatment of horses. The facts are one of HRNSW platforms for introducing a limit is animal welfare. The facts are, and HRNSW own research shows it that a horse treated with an approved supplement if tested close to treatment will get over 200 so the animal welfare line added to examples like Luda, the animal welfare angle is just a big furfee, used to justify ones argument.
    Quite frankly I have no time for any of Patrick Bartley's articles. I personally do not think he even likes racing. To start with why would Racing NSW appoint a judge to the hearing. I will give you the tip, its because of the current Supreme Court case with McDowell and Day, not as he states the seriousness of the charges. Who would have thought that Racing NSW would want to make sure their decisions were legally binding.
    Rick I am not sure how you maintain that performance is not relevant?? I suggest you read HRNSW penalty guidelines.
    http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=18370
    Their penalty guidelines even state that it is relevant!!
    I think it is important that the stewards understand their role. Their job is to enforce the rules as they stand. When stewards step outside and there have been plenty of cases in the past of stewards doing this, normally for the wrong reason but they are also responsible to enforce the rules for the perceived reason. If one innocent person is punished because of the lack of research and evidence I am sorry that is too much for me.
    Notwithstanding the issue of improved performance etc. the penalty simply doesn't fit the crime. US trainer got a number of days, Kevin Moses pleaded not guilty - 12 months, Harness Racing in NSW, plead guilty and get 2.5 to 3 years, why the big difference?? If you read the penalty guidelines and tell me how Cobalt given as a vitamin supplement is a Class 1 then, ask yourself why??
    Jack can you provide me with the link to where it says that you can get a cobalt reading of 200 using an approved supplement.
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  6. #676
    Senior Member 2YO Pena will become famous soon enough
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    Jack Peters
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    Kevin, this is the ridiculous thing about cobalt and its testing, HRNSW did testing at Pepper Tree Stud on brood mares over 12 months ago but have never formally released the results. I have seen the results through a friends ring so I would be more than happy to email them to you if you send me a message with your address. Rick I am sorry if you think I am for the use of cobalt. Surely however any decision that is made should be faced on facts. Any person I have ever known that has had anything to do with horses says the reduction of pain is the best way to make a horse go faster is to reduce pain. At present you could give a horse a registered painkiller and in NSW be classed as a Class 2 as opposed to give a Class 1 such as cobalt that is totally unproven and get 6 times the penalty, sorry but this does not make sense to me.

  7. #677
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I would then be summarizing them and posting it on here Jack so couldn't you just tell us what approved products they administered for the tests, whether it was administered in accordance with product instructions and what the results showed?
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  8. #678
    Senior Member 3YO strong persuader has a spectacular aura about strong persuader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I would then be summarizing them and posting it on here Jack so couldn't you just tell us what approved products they administered for the tests, whether it was administered in accordance with product instructions and what the results showed?
    The study involved administering a product known as ‘Hemo-15’, supplied by Virbac, which is an injectable vitamin supplement that contained the highest level of Cobalt of any registered veterinary product in Australia (0.7 µg/L of Cobalt gluconate and 150 µg/L of vitamin B12).

    In what Dr Wainscott stated was an ‘unusually intensive’ regime, the horses were injected with Hemo-15 between 8am and 8.30am for the first three days of the trial. Dr Wainscott stated that ‘this was a practise that trainers and veterinarians would almost never have good cause to administer registered products containing cobalt on consecutive days and that such administration would commonly be outside of manufacturer’s recommendations.” http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-1...balt-threshold

    And here is another interesting article, http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-14/what-is-cobalt

    For mine, I'll accept the word of these far more educated people and go with the idea that overloading horses with cobalt may have disastrous effects on them!
    Warning: Horses are expensive, addictive, and may impair the ability to use common sense.

  9. #679
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    That is so comprehensive, thanks Phil
    Make sure you read that first link Jack - pretty hard to argue with

    - Within 24 hours after a third administration the urinary Cobalt concentrations of all five horses had returned almost to pre-treatment baseline levels.

    http://www.racing.com/news/2015-01-1...balt-threshold
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  10. #680
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Dan Gibson
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    Makes me really laugh when I see the defence statements being made by some people who have been caught out with this....( I have to say, many have been busted for other substances) , but try the "my horse must have abnormally high existing levels" bullshit that has been put forward by someone for every new substance found to be administered for the effect of performance enhancement since Ben Hurr raced in the Roman Colluseum!

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