Smoken up returns a positive

[tyson]

Aussiebreno, Im an owner and i know a bit about the day in / day out of a stable and horses. I guess i did work in one from when i was 12, so i should know a little. I think all owners should take the time to head down to the stable and have a look at the day to day runnning of it, Get an understanding of the terminology that trainers use. I ring my trainers all the time and even flown over to nsw for a couple of days to see the horses work/trial. I would hate to pay a bill and not understand if i was getting ripped.

But with all this talk on performance enhancing drugs. I don't like seeing them buzzed off their brain. But can anyone really say they are using performance enhancing drugs if it hasn't returned a positive. We all know what they test for and there is always new stuff out there. What about Cobra venom ? Maybe that snake just happen to give a little bite mixed with a little bit of water accidently in america ? Do you think thats made its way to Aus yet ? Most likely.......

Lance is just going to have to deal with what ever comes his way!!!!!

[Iraklis]

Mango Mango Mango or should I say Yulestar Yulestar Yulestar...........More than finished school pal, obviously you haven't! the tah dah (I could've used another form but it wouldn't be tolerated in here) was just a form of punctuation, but I would have thought someone of intelligence would have known that!!! now to the rest of you who also cannot read and or are unable to understand what is written.......at no stage have I assumed his guilt 'I SAID IF PROVEN' and neither did I say anyone's views are more or less important then anyone else's, and neither did I say anywhere that it is okay to give any horse a drug to make it do whatever! far from it! if anyone has anything twisted in here you lot have! strikes me my post has hit a real big nerve, what is that I ask could it be alot of guilty consciences..........suggestion 'READ MY ORIGINAL POST PROPERLY!' (include the 2nd one to).........okay, now the lot of you are jumpin up and down about what exactly???? from a group of comments made to me Finals night to which I might add I was skeptical about, to now when the news broke at no stage have I assumed the mans guilt, what has me incredulous is that the test returned an irregularity the people I was with picked it, THE POINT! if it has always been so obvious and I'm not ONLY talking about Justice HOW COME NOTHING MORE IS BEING DONE TO CUT IT OUT OVERALL!

Cheers Iraklis

PS. breno: only mentioned the people I was sitting with to show these were people who would know about such matters, over the years there have been others, stewards, racecourse inspectors etc etc the POINT WAS those comments have been consistent over the years, and everybody knows about it, so why all the bluster.............or is it I'm not supposed to say it! yeah right..........

[aussiebreno]

Aussiebreno, Im an owner and i know a bit about the day in / day out of a stable and horses. I guess i did work in one from when i was 12, so i should know a little. I think all owners should take the time to head down to the stable and have a look at the day to day runnning of it, Get an understanding of the terminology that trainers use. I ring my trainers all the time and even flown over to nsw for a couple of days to see the horses work/trial. I would hate to pay a bill and not understand if i was getting ripped.

But with all this talk on performance enhancing drugs. I don't like seeing them buzzed off their brain. But can anyone really say they are using performance enhancing drugs if it hasn't returned a positive. We all know what they test for and there is always new stuff out there. What about Cobra venom ? Maybe that snake just happen to give a little bite mixed with a little bit of water accidently in america ? Do you think thats made its way to Aus yet ? Most likely.......

Lance is just going to have to deal with what ever comes his way!!!!!

Thats great Tyson. I wasnt saying owners can't / don't know about horses I was just saying it isn't a pre-requisite.

You then go on to say you can't say performance enhancing drugs are being used if it hasn't returned a positive....then say its most likely snake venom is in Aus. There has been no positives to snake venom so you contradict yourself.

[mango]

Hi Iraklis

I've read your post as others have on this Forum and for the life of me i still can't understand your taking of at the 600/400 so come explain it better because as i and other's understand it your saying no horse can do this without help. Now lets just use Smoken Up for example this horse has been racing the same way for the past 3 yrs and in his 2 heats before the final and has never recieved a positive but as you say and the experts you were associated with you can't do this without help. I could name a few more horses who have done the same over years and never got a positive but i don't want to waste my time. And by all means don't be afraid to say what you really think instead of beating around the bush i can handle being called name's . I'm glad that you have finished school but maybe that was a long time ago and your out of touch with what horses are capable of dong in today's world. The only thing i will agree with you is that the sport does not need people who use drugs.

[aussiebreno]

Mango Mango Mango or should I say Yulestar Yulestar Yulestar...........More than finished school pal, obviously you haven't! the tah dah (I could've used another form but it wouldn't be tolerated in here) was just a form of punctuation, but I would have thought someone of intelligence would have known that!!! now to the rest of you who also cannot read and or are unable to understand what is written.......at no stage have I assumed his guilt 'I SAID IF PROVEN' and neither did I say anyone's views are more or less important then anyone else's, and neither did I say anywhere that it is okay to give any horse a drug to make it do whatever! far from it! if anyone has anything twisted in here you lot have! strikes me my post has hit a real big nerve, what is that I ask could it be alot of guilty consciences..........suggestion 'READ MY ORIGINAL POST PROPERLY!' (include the 2nd one to).........okay, now the lot of you are jumpin up and down about what exactly???? from a group of comments made to me Finals night to which I might add I was skeptical about, to now when the news broke at no stage have I assumed the mans guilt, what has me incredulous is that the test returned an irregularity the people I was with picked it, THE POINT! if it has always been so obvious and I'm not ONLY talking about Justice HOW COME NOTHING MORE IS BEING DONE TO CUT IT OUT OVERALL!

Cheers Iraklis

PS. breno: only mentioned the people I was sitting with to show these were people who would know about such matters, over the years there have been others, stewards, racecourse inspectors etc etc the POINT WAS those comments have been consistent over the years, and everybody knows about it, so why all the bluster.............or is it I'm not supposed to say it! yeah right..........

To the first part of your post aimed at Mango; this isnt just about Smoken Up; but any other horse that has cleared out and won (even though Smoken Up didnt really clear out). Not every horse who clears out and wins is on juice. How you can say that; not even as a generalisation (which would be ridiculous in itself) but as a 100% fact every time it happens. Its a ridiculous accusation. I know of another horse who if he does much work will die in the arse. But give him a sit and let him go for a final sprint and if he is at his best I would back him to run down any 3yo; Sushi Sushi being a possible exception. So with his style of racing when he goes bang and clears out late you are saying he is on drugs when I know 110% its TLC. In fact imo if he was on drugs he would be a star because he would sustain his sprint for longer.

So tell me HOW exactly these people know what a performance enhancing drug does to a horse?
Trainers: Shouldnt be experimenting with performance enhancing drugs so shouldnt know
Owners: Have no need; they dont handle the horse daily and as I said all they need to do is write a cheque out.
Breeders: Since when did broodmares, foals and yearlings race or need performance enhancing drugs? How would breeders know?
Vets: Vets give drugs to fix problems; the majority wouldn't experiment to see what certain substances do and those that do would only know (these figures are made up) that drug A expands the lung capacity by 15% or relieves the joint pain by 10%....they wouldnt know how that correlates to the racetrack as that shouldnt be the reason they are experimenting. If they are they are f***ing dodgy people who you are hanging out with
Stewards: Fair dinkum I dont know if you are from Australia or NZ but the Australian stewards wouldnt know shit from clay....and judging by the whole Geoff Small saga I'm guessing its actually worse in NZ.
Racecourse inspectors: What are these; club volunteers given a special role?
Those comments have not been consistent over the years. Hardly ever have I seen a horse do no work early then sprint home late and then people call for its head that its on drugs. Its when horses do work early/middle (as opposed to sprinting at the 400/600) and still grind on is when the drug accusations occur.
If you look back through my posts you will see I am dead against drugs. Your argument is like this; if a McDonalds worker says their quarter pounders and fries are good for you then they must be.

[buster]

Still can't work out what iraklis is talking about

Seems clear cut to me, the horse try's his guts out every week and lance hardly stops him, so obviously the horse will be in pain after the race and is treated with whatever, lance fuc$ed up and gave it to hI'm too close to the race

But we still need the second swab to he done

trainers need vets and the kiwis use them nearly as much as the yanks do

[Mighty Atom]

Over the years I have seen performances from horses that defy logic and have returned a negative result. Most of them have been trained by the top echelon of trainers and many of them over their careers have returned irregular or positive swabs.I've seen one of our top trainers over here in the west with absolutely no concern about positioning the horse for an advantage, he would just circle the field and sit in the death and win most of the time, not with just one or two horses but with most. I've seen a champion horse come out on the track for his prelim, heavily bandaged, bobbing his head around like he's walking through hot coals and wins with a leg in the air, blind Freddy can see something ain't right. Just because a horse returns a negetive does not mean they're not on something. Another of our top trainers was caught drenching his horse in the float just after he had won a major race, it was a sweltering night and the horse would have obviously lost a lot of fluid. This could have been perceived as a therapeutic treatment however the stewards didn't think so and he got time. While I grant you that it's a lot more difficult to get away with anything these days because of the high tech testing, its not stopping trainers from trying to gain an advantage. You would have to be very naive to think otherwise.

[tyson]

Thats great Tyson. I wasnt saying owners can't / don't know about horses I was just saying it isn't a pre-requisite.

You then go on to say you can't say performance enhancing drugs are being used if it hasn't returned a positive....then say its most likely snake venom is in Aus. There has been no positives to snake venom so you contradict yourself.

The reason why they are classed as performance enhancing drugs, Because if its aministrated within that timeline and show up on race day then it is performance enhancing. If your swab comes back clear then i guess your within the guidelines and it doesn't counr as being drugged.

Also on the snake venom. I did have America at the end of the quote. Also the first case registered of the stuff being found in the fridge of a stable in the states was from an Australian vet. So yeh i wonder if it has made its way here ?

[Flashing Red]

The reason why they are classed as performance enhancing drugs, Because if its aministrated within that timeline and show up on race day then it is performance enhancing. If your swab comes back clear then i guess your within the guidelines and it doesn't counr as being drugged.

That isn't strictly true. For example Bute stops actively working on a horse's system approx. 12 hours after the initial dose. However, it can be detected (even though it does jack all) for a further 6 days. After 24 hours however, there wouldn't be a remote chance that it had any affect on a horse whatsoever.

[DAZZA]

Iraklis ... give it up mate! Any horse that takes off at the 600 and wins is on something? Well Holy Camp Boy should have returned 20 odd positives than, any horse that takes off 3 wide solo at the bell and wins must be returning positives all day. What about a horse that takes off 3 wide at the 800, makes ground and ends up running a faster last half than the winner because hes wide? Is he also on something? If the sport is so rigged that every horse that wins taking off at the 600 is on something, than I suggest that you are the idiot. Because why would someone who is so convinced that 1 out of every 3 races is won by a drugged up horse continues to follow the sport and I'd dare say bet on it, would have to be the biggest idiot out of everyone, even more than the trainer treating the so called horses taking off at the 600 !

And I also dare say that the trainers and owners you were standing are the types of ones who couldnt train a pig to roll in sh*t and label anyone who can train a horse a cheat simply because they are jealous!