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Thread: Colts v Fillies

  1. #1
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Grant Train
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    Colts v Fillies

    The obvious disdain of Aussie buyers for fillies is well known and solutions to this are constantly debated everywhere. When you look at it realistically though it's a hard sell. No mare has been truly dominant in harness racing practically ever like they can be in the thoroughbreds. Now I understand weight pull however look at Saturdays racing at Rosehill. The first seven in the golden slipper are fillies. Now that can't just be 2kgs. BMW winner is a mare.
    I am getting to my question and keen to here answers from those breeders who know the ins and outs of the standardbred but why do thoroughbred mares/fillies seem to be able to compete with colts, particularly at the elite level, where Standardbreds clearly cannot? Is there some genetic disposition of standardbred mares that sets them at a disadvantage?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Don't pretend to have the answer Grant, but I have done a bit research on heart score in Standardbreds over the years and there is an indication that standardbred mares are generally 2 to 4 points lower than their male counterparts, obviously there are exceptions to the rule and heartscore is not the be all and end all measure of whether a horse is up to it or not, but there is sufficient information out there to give this some credibility in my opinion.

    I have no idea how thoroughbreds go in the HS department and if there is any gender factor at work.

    Gait is a consideration also, for instance I believe we have seen more trotting mares competitive at the top level than pacing mares.

    Another thing that has just entered my thoughts is the tying up problem that we see in many mares but fewer males, I've had to deal with many a mare tying up over the years, but have never really done much work on why it is the mares more so than colts and geldings?? If a larger percentage of mares never reach their full potential due to this problem then what impact does that have?

    Temperament is a consideration but I would not think our standardbred mares are any more whimsical than their thoroughbred counterparts.

    It's a great question and I look forward to hearing other people's views.

    cheers,
    Dan

  3. #3
    Senior Member 2YO Pena will become famous soon enough
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    I think the programming in general says that fillies/mares just don't race against each other as 2 and 3 year olds and even as 4 years (with Breeders Crowns etc.) like they do in the gallops so I think it is almost impossible to assess.
    Also with the weight relief that mare/fillies get the only penalty that you could give mares in harness racing is PBD on sex. I am pretty sure there are no Group 1 races that offer this concession.
    Truth is if you owned a mare like Frith why would you not in you restrict her to fillies/mares racing. I think there is $625k reasons to stick to racing their own sex.

  4. #4
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pena View Post
    I think the programming in general says that fillies/mares just don't race against each other as 2 and 3 year olds and even as 4 years (with Breeders Crowns etc.) like they do in the gallops so I think it is almost impossible to assess.
    Also with the weight relief that mare/fillies get the only penalty that you could give mares in harness racing is PBD on sex. I am pretty sure there are no Group 1 races that offer this concession.
    Truth is if you owned a mare like Frith why would you not in you restrict her to fillies/mares racing. I think there is $625k reasons to stick to racing their own sex.
    Hey Jack,
    Im not denying the option of racing against your own sex makes absolute sense however it is a NECESSITY in the trots more so than the gallops because the fillies and mares CANNOT compete regularly. The odd one in a generation can. Frith, while she is a great mare, would get donkey licked by guaranteed, chilli palmer etc. It just seems a real anomaly in the trots to have a mare that could keep up with colts. We have a miracle mile where you will only ever see 1 mare take its place in the race, rarely win it, and its position in the field is often debated.

    Black Cav dominated in the gallops at wfa and handicap at G1 level. As did Diva. Look back through history ad it is very very hard to find a mare that has DOMINATED like a colt or gelding can. They have won odd races here and there but never regularly. Surely there has to be something to this.

  5. #5
    aussiebreno
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    Is the question why are fillies in Standardbreds unable to compete, or is the question why are fillies in Thoroughbred racing able to compete? I reckon the more pertinent question is why are Thoroughbred fillies able to compete with their male counterparts.
    In humans, we know men eclipse the girls in running, swimming etc.
    We know in the animal kingdom that the boys usually do the hunting because they are quicker and stronger.
    We see Testosterone (in both humans and horses) being used as a performance enhancer regularly. We don't see estrogen.
    I reckon whatever usually makes males better at running is exactly why standard bred males are better performed than fillies. But why can thoroughbred fillies compete? As you sort of mentioned, WFA scale would be one key reason. That said, that can't be only reason for the result in the Slipper as the fillies ran top 7 and I reckon would have trifectaed it at level weights. But generally speaking I reckon main reason is the WFA scale.
    As for giving a similar advantage in harness, we do have PBD/S and I doubt there is a fairer system, but we limited by the nature of how we race.

  6. #6
    Senior Member 2YO Pena will become famous soon enough
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    I know sometimes the facts are sometimes hidden by the facts.
    I heard this morning that it was the second time in history that fillies ran 1-2-3, so it is not as if it happens all that often but it did happen last Saturday.
    Despite getting a massive weight advantage and many of the best generation I think the last 3yo filly to win the Cox Plate was Surround and I will be surprised if a 3yo filly wins again in the next 20 years.
    Truth is it is very difficult for mares/fillies to compete against colts geldings notwithstanding 2yo thoroughbred racing. Even if you look at races like the Coolmore (Sprint) , Cox Plate and 3yo Autumn races you get very different statistics. Mares like Sunline, Makybe Diva and Black Caviar are the exception not the rule. Look at a last seasons star fillies, Guelph and Overreach likely to be retired and in the breeding barn this season.
    The point I am making is particularly as 2yo the fillies and colts really never compete so the comparison is not relevant.

  7. #7
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    I definitely see your point Jack. But we have seen mares like Sunline, Cav, Diva, Allinghi, Private Steer, More Joyous, Miss Andretti, Miss Finland etc. we have no real bona fide pin up girl of harness racing, no freak story of a mare beating up on the boys.
    I certainly wish your stat about fillies in the cox was wrong. Samantha Miss would have been a great result for my wallet. She was competitive and maybe even unlucky, imagine putting a 3yo filly in against Smoken up? I know I have neglected the weight pull in that example but are thoroughbred mares just 'up to it' more physically?

  8. #8
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    Blossom Lady says hi!

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Stallion Richard prior will become famous soon enough Richard prior's Avatar
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    Not as often as the TB's but we've seen some pretty good race mares, Totally agree with Blossum Lady and then you have the likes of Scotch Notch, Pride of Petite, Robin Dundee, Armalight, Delightful Lady and more recently Lombo Rapida was very handy. Norms Daughter and Baby Bling were also good enough to win the Miracle Mile.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Yeh Leigh so does Norms Daughter, Tailamade Lombo,Delightful lady,Roma Hanover, Sabilize, Teeny Rena, Stella Frost and Robin Dundee, and please forgive me if I've left someone out, but thats my memory of mares that could be regularly competitive at the highest level.....not many in 45 years is it?

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