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Thread: hype and delusion

  1. #21
    Super Moderator Horse Of The Year teecee has a spectacular aura about teecee's Avatar
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    Champions are purely created in the eyes of the beholder. the start of this thread is critical of the views of the current day champion claims yet then goes on to basically in #19 to label one horse from a bygone era as such and then commit the cardinal sin of comparing horses of different eras.
    IMO each era has its champions but each is only a champion when the meet the individual criteria of the person claiming them to be such...i.e.
    Horses that I may consider to be champions will often be not in the eyes of many here and elsewhere. Also horses of different eras will be champions in their era but often are not considered so by others who no little of their exploits.
    I believe that what makes a champion is based on beating the very best opposition over varied distances at any circuit. that doesn't mean they are unbeaten. Often the best performance in a race is not by the winner.
    I also firmly believe that champions come on age group racing. Courage Under Fire when unbeaten in first 24 starts at 2, 3 and 4 winning the races he did against the opposition against himon both sides of the ditch qualifies him for champ status.


    Horses I have seen and consider to be of champion status....
    Cardigan Bay, Bret Hanover, Artsplace, Niatross, Robin Dundee, Popular Alm, Delightful Lady, Blossom Lady, Paleface Adios, Pure Steel, Courage Under Fire, Christian Cullen and never forget Blackie, ITMQ and Trigger. Along with trotters Varenne, Lyall Creek, Merinai, Maori's Idol, Waggon Apollo, True Roman, Muscles Yankee, Muscle Hill along with some others. They are all horses from different countries winning in different eras against the highest level of opposition fielded against them.


    As for horses racing today....
    Terror to Love. Although he has not shown Australian his best in the flesh he has met and beaten what we have put up against him in new Zealand along with the odd Aussie visitor to NZ. It should be noted that horses he has beaten here have gone to Oz and beaten the best Australia has put up. That his greatest triumphs of 3 victories in Austalasia's toughest test puts him in champions status.
    Christen Me. His record in a relatively short career speaks for itself, as listed previously, clearly puts him in champion status. Basically the only GC race he has competed in and is yet to win are NZ Cup.
    He has beaten the best and done so often with relative ease. Last nights Victoria Cup was rightfully claimed by many to be the gathering of the very cream of Austalasian pacing talent with IMO 2 exceptions. Whilst I accept 2 were missing, IMO they may not have been able to prevent the prevailing result and how it was achieved.
    Adore Me is, IMO absolutely a champion. She may not have raced against the males often but when she has, hers is usually the run of the race bringing 2 GROUP 1 wins and several placings against our best male pacers. She is nigh well unbeatable against her own sex and racing against them is not a barrier to stardom as per age racing. Her connections have made the choice to not race in the Interdominions but rather the ladyship Mile on Finals day. That will afford those there to witness possibly two undisputable champions crowned on that star day.
    As far as the aussies go Beautide is the next closest thing to a champ there. I can't really offer an opinion outright as I have seen little of him other than his MM and Interdom victories. and those two alone put him right up there.


    As I say a champion is in the eyes of the beholder and your champ may not be mine and vice versa.
    This is a sturdy debate thread which belies the title IMO. Keep it up.
    Last edited by teecee; 02-01-2015 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Stallion Richard prior will become famous soon enough Richard prior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoken View Post
    Ye, that's what I thought Brent. Curious to see how TTL goes on Hunter Cup night.
    Hi Ev, Different kettle of fish in the Hunter Cup compared to last nights Victoria Cup, TTL will or should really appreciate the extra distance and all things being equal, He'll be in the hunt.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Maorisidol has a spectacular aura about Maorisidol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard prior View Post
    Hi Ev, Different kettle of fish in the Hunter Cup compared to last nights Victoria Cup, TTL will or should really appreciate the extra distance and all things being equal, He'll be in the hunt.
    If i may Rich and Smoken, now theres 2 posts about the Hunter Cup, can i take this across to the Hunter Cup thread i created and carry on from there???

  4. #24
    Senior Member Colt The Escape Club will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by niloc View Post
    why do the media in this country continually bombard us with bull---- about so called champions?last week we heard about the latest in a long line of these pretenders namely philidelphia man,all week we heard and read about what he was going to do to a country cup field at shepparton,he started at false and prohibitive odds and was a major disappointment to all that been sucked into the hype.a hype created by certain members of the media who are irresponsible and dumb.think about what real champions have done,think about the likes of cardigan bay,halwes,hondo grattan, pure steel,paleface adios,gammalite, popular alm,village kid,preaux chevalier,blacks a fake etc.i am sure if the people who write or broadcast this crap have no idea what a criteria entails to qualify horses to such lofty heights.there is only one horse in the vic cup tonight who has any claim to such a moniker and it is not philly man.

    From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator Stallion Richard prior will become famous soon enough Richard prior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maorisidol View Post
    If i may Rich and Smoken, now theres 2 posts about the Hunter Cup, can i take this across to the Hunter Cup thread i created and carry on from there???
    Yes, No problems here Ash.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Maorisidol has a spectacular aura about Maorisidol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Escape Club View Post
    From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up.
    Before anyone answers your question Robert, are you saying Poppy was not or does not deserve to be called a Champion or mentioned in the same category as who you regard as Champions?

  7. #27
    Senior Member 4YO Smoken will become famous soon enough Smoken's Avatar
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    Sounds good Ash. I always thought Iraklis was a Champ, others have disagreed and still do, but that's what makes it fun.
    As TeeCee said, it's in the eye of the beholder for many varying reasons.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Colt The Escape Club will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maorisidol View Post
    Before anyone answers your question Robert, are you saying Poppy was not or does not deserve to be called a Champion or mentioned in the same category as who you regard as Champions?

    Best horse I've seen, missed out on the top 3 only 3 times in his career, was an electrifying horse who had a lot of issues at inopportune times.


    He won from 1609m out to 3300m and everywhere in between, he won from the mobile and the stand, winning off handicaps out to 50m. He was smashing the clock while he was doing it.


    Just like ITMQ he would pull them through the gates in their thousands.


    IMO, there's a much greater depth of quality compared to when Poppy was going around, he made up for it with margins and times. He was tough too, you only have to watch his 2nd Kilmore Cup win when he came off 35m and was almost knocked over twice by Bret Eden.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Maorisidol has a spectacular aura about Maorisidol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Escape Club View Post
    Best horse I've seen, missed out on the top 3 only 3 times in his career, was an electrifying horse who had a lot of issues at inopportune times.


    He won from 1609m out to 3300m and everywhere in between, he won from the mobile and the stand, winning off handicaps out to 50m. He was smashing the clock while he was doing it.


    Just like ITMQ he would pull them through the gates in their thousands.


    IMO, there's a much greater depth of quality compared to when Poppy was going around, he made up for it with margins and times. He was tough too, you only have to watch his 2nd Kilmore Cup win when he came off 35m and was almost knocked over twice by Bret Eden.
    Now i'm confused.
    Earlier you were asking Colin "From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up."
    That question seems to infer you didnt think he should be classified a Champion...???
    But your response to me says he was the best horse you've seen...

  10. #30
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maorisidol View Post
    Now i'm confused.
    Earlier you were asking Colin "From your list, why was Poppy a champion? He won a MM, Hunter Cup and QPC. A much inferior CV the others that you've thrown up."
    That question seems to infer you didnt think he should be classified a Champion...???
    But your response to me says he was the best horse you've seen...
    You did not really think that, did you Ash?
    It was a variation on a rhetorical question
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