Is there a place for Standing Start races if we are looking to maximize market share

[Danno]

So many of the books on past champions frequently refer to ...yd handicaps that they made up and it must have been exciting stuff and just like pro running - a perfect form of handicapping.
I don't remember such exciting handicaps from my visits to the Showgrounds in the early 70's but that could just as easily be my memory.
My main memory of handicap racing is the trotters and even recently at Ararat, I still found that exciting.
There have of course been the odd tough handicap in the pacers in 'fairly recent' days like Master Musician off 40m in the Hunter Cup, a couple of notable ones off 30m in the Kilmore Cup, etc and of of course NZ

Kev,

we went to metric in racing in the early seventies, about 1973 I think, we changed to mostly mobile racing in the early eighties so there is not a big load of material on 10/15/20 metre handicaps in total. The inters in the late 70's early 80's had loads of these marks reserved for the likes of Pure Steel, Paleface ( I think he is entitled to a one word name) Hondo Grattan etc before we moved to mostly mobiles.

I think the really big handicaps that people saw years before that was probably brought about by factors such as distance...transport these days is quicker and safer ( I know my Dad's old mentor Perc Warby used to tell us stories about jogging his horses from Newcastle to Maitland and Cessnock for big events in the 20's and 30's.) roads are better etc and so the better horse were racing against locals and therefore needed to be heavily handicapped to ensure the races was not a farce.

A very good trotter Albey Logan, trained at Maitland by Noellene Kirkwood and driven by her husband Grahame who ran second in the 1979 Trotters Interdominion Grand Final at Addington used to race and win off marks of up to 100 metres locally in the Hunter Valley because he was just head and shoulders above any other Trotters here, the Kirkwoods took him away to race from time to time ( I think he won a Dullard cup at one stage) but like most people they had jobs to attend to so a life on the road tangling with the best week in week out was out of the question.

Cheers,
Dan

[niloc]

lets take tradition out of everything!!I don't think so!saturday nights race had every thing drama, excitement the lot.it fulfilled that any thing is possible in racing,i love stand start racing,they should bring the hunter cup back to a handicap,why do these generations want to change every thing? perhaps they would like our greatest horse race to be wfa?

[teecee]

I don't know whether anybody has noticed if ever you look up NZ race fields. You may notice Ur in the barrier position for many horses. This means the horse is classified unruly and is similar to ODS or ODM.
It may interest you to know that these classifications are 95% at the request of the trainer, mostly for the purposes of educating the horse in barrier manners.
Only 5% are banished there by the stewards.

As a side point, for me, teaching the horse to stand is part and parcel of the long reining process at breaking in. All work in the cart starts from pacing/trotting successfully away from a stand. A workout doesn't start from a gallop. (go back and start again.) You may say have the time for this but I learned it working in one of our biggest stables and see it at the more successful ones too. Getting this right early has paid dividends for me with my horses.


re the NZ horses in Saturday's Hunter Cup, all three of the big guns are prone to breaking stride at the start. TTL , never a real fast beginner at the best of times, made a real hash of the start to his third NZ Cup win which is what made it all the more meritorious, Franco Ledger has a penchant for bobbling away and both Adore Me and Christen Me have at best only 50% records at the stand which made me nervous as both have not seen a barrier strand on raceday since NZ Cup day and surrounded by Aussie horses who may see it only once a year. In hindsight Arden Rooney which can fairly be claimed an Aussie now as he has been granted "permanent residence" (so we can share the victory can't we?...LOL) has always been the best of them at the barrier.


As such, while practice should make perfect as they say, we are dealing with the unpredictable animal.

[arlington]

In Victoria, at least, a trainer used to be able to request ODM/S at the start of a horse's career, but not for a long while. Having been made OD you can choose to either requalify or race. A driver might be able to ease away from the start without breaching rules but if still tardy remain OD. Would need to check the rules if once made OD by the stewards you can request to remain OD.
As a theoretical, would any of the Kiwi trainers requested ODS Saturday night if they could?

[allanjg]

only read the first to paragraphs of carhills post....i never thought i would ever agree with him on anything,but on this one i do....my father broke young harness horses in in the buisy streets in the middle of warrnambool...cars,bike riders,trucks and cheeky kids...he rolled his own smokes,cigarette holder and all,when he felt the need he would stop the youngster,put the riegns over his forearm pullout the havelock and roll his smoke....no mobile starts in those days...he was renowned for having horses with good barrier manners and getting 10yds on the rest...no matter what his horse could do,he always won the first half mile.

[the_racing_wiz]

Longtime reader, first time poster.

I agree with the majority of what has been said here - horses not educated enough, same for the drivers, the differing methods of starting in each state, that it is the best method for handicapping etc.

However, the post asks whether there is a place for them with regards turnover. And I would say no to that question, unfortunately.

For those of us that grew up with them being commonplace, we are used to 'fallables'. But the modern gambling landscape has changed. And the product isnt as digestable for them. They are forever run late which makes them less palatable for Sky also. When I watch old replays, horses always missed away and always will so the education issue may well be moot.

I would take it a step further, and say that Im not certain that mobile racing(with 2 lines) even appeals to the 'rank and file', and its all to do with perception - rightly or wrongly.
In horse racing they all start in-line. Every horse has his chance to lead or take up a position that THEY WANT. Greyhound racing they all start in-line and each dog has its chance to lead should it be fast enough. But in Harness racing, if you draw the backline you are condemmed to a fate thats decided generally by the horses drawn in front of you. Its perception, and to the unitiated Harness racing form is complicated. Its is no where near as 'user friendly' as the dogs are - either as a punting medium or to broadcast.

They think if I have a bet at the footy, they start nil all and they wont break gate or gear after 2mins and the game will end.

My own thoughts are the harness racing will continue to struggle for relevence in the moden gambling landscape - the other modern day gambling options are just better as a product. Its a dinosaur from another time to most. I dont think sliding mobiles is the answer, and maybe if money was no object an infa-red beam or similar might be thw answer, but the game is struggling to pay for its self as it is.

The answer has to be in the handicapping. A ratings based system was mooted here in WA but like most modern ideas in Harness, its was killed by those that cant think outside the square. If we could at least start with a system that doesnt allow classic winners into C0's.....do you know how ridiculous this looks to 'joe blow in Tabland'.

[Amlin]

Welcome aboard Jason!

[Rob Nalder]

Great post by Jason, this very much sums it all up. Having all Horses coming of the gate as one is what the younger person likes to see. Not having your investment controlled by what another horse you are following out decides to do. We need to find a much better form / method of how we handicap our horses. This is what HRNSW are trying to develop in NSW. We all have our feelings / thoughts on what is taking place in NSW. I do feel what we have today can and will develop into what is needed to take our sport into the future. Having said that we need to find answers to the issues we don't agree with and at the same time continue to be progressive and constructive in our thoughts and ideas, as it is a massive issue in taking our sport in the right direction for others to be drawn into our great sport.

[Messenger]

"I would take it a step further, and say that Im not certain that mobile racing(with 2 lines) even appeals to the 'rank and file', and its all to do with perception - rightly or wrongly.
In horse racing they all start in-line. Every horse has his chance to lead or take up a position that THEY WANT. Greyhound racing they all start in-line and each dog has its chance to lead should it be fast enough. But in Harness racing, if you draw the backline you are condemmed to a fate thats decided generally by the horses drawn in front of you. Its perception, and to the unitiated Harness racing form is complicated. Its is no where near as 'user friendly' as the dogs are - either as a punting medium or to broadcast"

Top post Jason. The above is a real crunch point

[Danno]

Jason makes some great points, in particular the last one.... If we could at least start with a system that doesnt allow classic winners into C0's.....do you know how ridiculous this looks to 'joe blow in Tabland'.

I would like to also say that if all horses coming off the gate together was what people are keen to see, then why does the turnover at tracks like Menangle and Newcastle not display this preference? It clearly doesn't I'm not defending two tier starts, just making the point that needs to be made if the debate is going to be fair dinkum.

Certainly in NSW our handicapping is struggling to create open contests which maximise turnover and NSW is not on it's own in that department. The latest initiative to compile fields from a bank of nominations does not seem to be working unfortunately, I was/am one of the people who was keen to see it make the right sort of difference but I am beginning to change my stance as i can't see a significant reduction in the number of odds on pops.

I would like to make one very strong point....we need to engage younger people in order for the game to remain relevant into the future and we need to take into account what younger people see, say and do......what we also need to take into account is to remember our own attitudes when we were the same age...I know I was inclined to form my opinions much more quickly than I do now and I see the same in my kids...it's a part of growing up and should NOT be ignored but taken into the balance of things.

I know I am beating on an old drum of mine about standing starts and make no apology about that as I believe there is a place for a greater number of stands in the game, it was run out of town by people who thought they had something to gain...but in fact getting rid of stands was just one many bullets to the foot our game has hit itself with.

I know I am asking people to accept some thinking that is contrary to everything they have heard in the last twenty five years, but we need open minds if we are going to resurrect/save our game.

As I said in my earliest post on this subject, look at the starting methods of the dogs and gallopers, they are flawed as well so the argument that the starting method is the silver bullet for our games woes does not hold water in my humble opinion, we have issues on a number of fronts and the current biggest problem is too many short priced favourites stiffling betting, partly because our racing is TOO PREDICTABLE.

I think our administrators need to start focussing on this factor more than they ever have.

cheers,
Dan.