Is there a place for Standing Start races if we are looking to maximize market share

[Richard prior]

I think we are all smarting after last nights Hunter Cup upset but I've been going through some stats this morning that might make some sense, The Kiwi's have far more stand starts races over there than what we do here in Oz, Now our racing here has become very much focused on sprint to 2200m racing apart from a few Country Cups and the Interdom, Hunter Cup etc, I've got together some figures for races above 2400m and I'll start with the Kiwi's,
Arden Rooney 16
Franco Ledger 44
Easy On The Eye 20
Adore Me 12
Christen Me 16
Terror To Love 34
Aussie Horses
Restrepo 9
Guaranteed 3
Philadelphia Man 3
Beautide 16(13 of these in Tamania)
The figures are quite staggering and the Kiwi's definitley have a big advantage with their experience in standing starts and are far more experienced over the longer distance races.

[Race For Fun]

Honesty up front I think standing start races are great. It may have something to do with my age but I absolutely think that there is and should be a place for stands in harness racing today and tomorrow. The thing to keep in mind is that it's not only the horses that need standing start education and practice, drivers need the same education and practice. Don't get me wrong I don't for one minute think that the reason any of the horses who galloped away last night was the fault of any driver. There was a time when anyone going for their licence had to complete in a certain number of stand trials and to get a signature you had to get the horse away not just be in the trial. There is none of that today. This not only educated the driver but horses also got more education. Not all horses are suited to stands and just because a horse steps away once it doesn't mean that the horse is ready or fit to start in a race. I think the game needs variety not boring mobile mile racing. Nothing gets up my nose more than hearing young drivers bleating on that a horse didn't go away. Nine times out of ten it's because the driver doesn't know how to get the horse away due to lack of education of the driver. The poor old stand gets the blame.
It's a skill knowing how to get a horse away from a stand. Rant over.

[Messenger]

I am not really a punter nowadays Toni and therefore like you I like the variety (You have to hate nothing but mobile miles) - I suppose I asked the question in regards to whether they can cost the industry but turnover analysts should be able to calculate that.
I think your point about driver education is a very valid one. I suspect the trainer driver who has has ample opportunity to practise when working his charges at home may get more practice than many nowadays

[Danno]

Just want correct some misconceptions,

1) Adore Me has NEVER been a safe bet away from the stand in her life,.quite the opposite in fact.

2) "punters losing their dough on stands start races....they do their dough on horses that miss the start in mobiles also, just like gallopers have issues with the contraptions they make them go into in the name of a "fair start" and the dogs have similar issues and then wipe themselves and half the field out on the first corner in approximately 40% of races.

3) Standing start races hold less turnover than mobiles.... there is NO evidence to support that theory, in fact there is more evidence to support that more turnover is bet on stands...quite likely because there are fewer super short fav's in stands that stifle the betting.

Is there a problem with the quality of standing start races today??? OF COURSE there is and you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why.

Standing starts were phased out during an era when the commercial breeders were having more influence on our game than they were entitled and why??? because they were chasing fast times against horses names to falsely raise the value of the stock they were marketing, which in turn had a negative effect on our game because it made purchasing a horse just that little bit harder and when you make it harder for people to participate they will find something else to do......and they DID!!!

Standing starts were the most effective way of handicapping standardbred racing when we were running sufficient of them for not only the horses to get educated, but much more importantly the trainers and drivers, fair dinkum you see MANY people driving today that have F___ing no idea ( blind elk mating) how to get a horse back in it's gear if it makes a break....when we had standing start races those people wouldn't get a drive! Not that it is rocket science, you just need to have the opportunity to learn.

Our game has many problems and one of them is too many short priced favourites and another is boring, boring, predictable racing, partly brought about by all mobile racing and the predictability of certain barrier draws.

If our game should EVER reintroduce more standing start racing it would not be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but would absolutely assist with handicapping given the smaller and smaller pool of horses we have for handicappers to work with. Provided the reintroduction was done very gradually and consisted of training trials not just for horses, but also for trainers and drivers.

Thats my rant over with...it is VERY easy to bag something if you don't understand it and I see most of the negative comments on here come from those that have not had the opportunity to do so.

cheers,
Dan

[Maorisidol]

Just want correct some misconceptions,

1) Adore Me has NEVER been a safe bet away from the stand in her life,.quite the opposite in fact.

2) "punters losing their dough on stands start races....they do their dough on horses that miss the start in mobiles also, just like gallopers have issues with the contraptions they make them go into in the name of a "fair start" and the dogs have similar issues and then wipe themselves and half the field out on the first corner in approximately 40% of races.

3) Standing start races hold less turnover than mobiles.... there is NO evidence to support that theory, in fact there is more evidence to support that more turnover is bet on stands...quite likely because there are fewer super short fav's in stands that stifle the betting.

Is there a problem with the quality of standing start races today??? OF COURSE there is and you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why.

Standing starts were phased out during an era when the commercial breeders were having more influence on our game than they were entitled and why??? because they were chasing fast times against horses names to falsely raise the value of the stock they were marketing, which in turn had a negative effect on our game because it made purchasing a horse just that little bit harder and when you make it harder for people to participate they will find something else to do......and they DID!!!

Standing starts were the most effective way of handicapping standardbred racing when we were running sufficient of them for not only the horses to get educated, but much more importantly the trainers and drivers, fair dinkum you see MANY people driving today that have F___ing no idea ( blind elk mating) how to get a horse back in it's gear if it makes a break....when we had standing start races those people wouldn't get a drive! Not that it is rocket science, you just need to have the opportunity to learn.

Our game has many problems and one of them is too many short priced favourites and another is boring, boring, predictable racing, partly brought about by all mobile racing and the predictability of certain barrier draws.

If our game should EVER reintroduce more standing start racing it would not be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but would absolutely assist with handicapping given the smaller and smaller pool of horses we have for handicappers to work with. Provided the reintroduction was done very gradually and consisted of training trials not just for horses, but also for trainers and drivers.

Thats my rant over with...it is VERY easy to bag something if you don't understand it and I see most of the negative comments on here come from those that have not had the opportunity to do so.

cheers,
Dan

Good call Dan!

And i agree with the significant stats of the NZ horses SS races and even more alarming lack of 2700m type distances for FFA horses or any grade horses in Australia.

[Njcstables]

Just want correct some misconceptions,

1) Adore Me has NEVER been a safe bet away from the stand in her life,.quite the opposite in fact.

2) "punters losing their dough on stands start races....they do their dough on horses that miss the start in mobiles also, just like gallopers have issues with the contraptions they make them go into in the name of a "fair start" and the dogs have similar issues and then wipe themselves and half the field out on the first corner in approximately 40% of races.

3) Standing start races hold less turnover than mobiles.... there is NO evidence to support that theory, in fact there is more evidence to support that more turnover is bet on stands...quite likely because there are fewer super short fav's in stands that stifle the betting.

Is there a problem with the quality of standing start races today??? OF COURSE there is and you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why.

Standing starts were phased out during an era when the commercial breeders were having more influence on our game than they were entitled and why??? because they were chasing fast times against horses names to falsely raise the value of the stock they were marketing, which in turn had a negative effect on our game because it made purchasing a horse just that little bit harder and when you make it harder for people to participate they will find something else to do......and they DID!!!

Standing starts were the most effective way of handicapping standardbred racing when we were running sufficient of them for not only the horses to get educated, but much more importantly the trainers and drivers, fair dinkum you see MANY people driving today that have F___ing no idea ( blind elk mating) how to get a horse back in it's gear if it makes a break....when we had standing start races those people wouldn't get a drive! Not that it is rocket science, you just need to have the opportunity to learn.

Our game has many problems and one of them is too many short priced favourites and another is boring, boring, predictable racing, partly brought about by all mobile racing and the predictability of certain barrier draws.

If our game should EVER reintroduce more standing start racing it would not be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but would absolutely assist with handicapping given the smaller and smaller pool of horses we have for handicappers to work with. Provided the reintroduction was done very gradually and consisted of training trials not just for horses, but also for trainers and drivers.

Thats my rant over with...it is VERY easy to bag something if you don't understand it and I see most of the negative comments on here come from those that have not had the opportunity to do so.

cheers,
Dan

+1

[Messenger]

So many of the books on past champions frequently refer to ...yd handicaps that they made up and it must have been exciting stuff and just like pro running - a perfect form of handicapping.
I don't remember such exciting handicaps from my visits to the Showgrounds in the early 70's but that could just as easily be my memory.
My main memory of handicap racing is the trotters and even recently at Ararat, I still found that exciting.
There have of course been the odd tough handicap in the pacers in 'fairly recent' days like Master Musician off 40m in the Hunter Cup, a couple of notable ones off 30m in the Kilmore Cup, etc and of of course NZ

[djgood]

Just want correct some misconceptions,

1) Adore Me has NEVER been a safe bet away from the stand in her life,.quite the opposite in fact.

2) "punters losing their dough on stands start races....they do their dough on horses that miss the start in mobiles also, just like gallopers have issues with the contraptions they make them go into in the name of a "fair start" and the dogs have similar issues and then wipe themselves and half the field out on the first corner in approximately 40% of races.

3) Standing start races hold less turnover than mobiles.... there is NO evidence to support that theory, in fact there is more evidence to support that more turnover is bet on stands...quite likely because there are fewer super short fav's in stands that stifle the betting.

Is there a problem with the quality of standing start races today??? OF COURSE there is and you don't have to be a Rhodes Scholar to work out why.

Standing starts were phased out during an era when the commercial breeders were having more influence on our game than they were entitled and why??? because they were chasing fast times against horses names to falsely raise the value of the stock they were marketing, which in turn had a negative effect on our game because it made purchasing a horse just that little bit harder and when you make it harder for people to participate they will find something else to do......and they DID!!!

Standing starts were the most effective way of handicapping standardbred racing when we were running sufficient of them for not only the horses to get educated, but much more importantly the trainers and drivers, fair dinkum you see MANY people driving today that have F___ing no idea ( blind elk mating) how to get a horse back in it's gear if it makes a break....when we had standing start races those people wouldn't get a drive! Not that it is rocket science, you just need to have the opportunity to learn.

Our game has many problems and one of them is too many short priced favourites and another is boring, boring, predictable racing, partly brought about by all mobile racing and the predictability of certain barrier draws.

If our game should EVER reintroduce more standing start racing it would not be the silver bullet that fixes everything, but would absolutely assist with handicapping given the smaller and smaller pool of horses we have for handicappers to work with. Provided the reintroduction was done very gradually and consisted of training trials not just for horses, but also for trainers and drivers.

Thats my rant over with...it is VERY easy to bag something if you don't understand it and I see most of the negative comments on here come from those that have not had the opportunity to do so.

cheers,
Dan

Great points Dan
I also believe it's all factory training here in Australia at the moment -get them in get them going if they don't go get rid of them get the next one ,and the trainers don't put the effort into getting them ready for the stands
Ones I break in are perfect stand horses rarely gallop away couple of recent 2yo I've gotten look like they haven't had much standing so everything I do is a stand ,when I jog it's a standing start ,when I fast work it's a standing start , doesn't take them long to realise what you expect

[Danno]

Great points Dan
I also believe it's all factory training here in Australia at the moment -get them in get them going if they don't go get rid of them get the next one ,and the trainers don't put the effort into getting them ready for the stands
Ones I break in are perfect stand horses rarely gallop away couple of recent 2yo I've gotten look like they haven't had much standing so everything I do is a stand ,when I jog it's a standing start ,when I fast work it's a standing start , doesn't take them long to realise what you expect

Dead right Dave, and in my humble opinion this is being driven PARTLY by an over emphasis on 2YO racing where IMO there is just too much money and people are trying to get a piece of the action but in doing so the horses overall education is a little underdone. You can see why educating a young horse to stand gets neglected these days....their not asked to do it at the races so why bother??Next thing you know they get up in grade and your trying to teach an old horse new tricks!

Personally, I like mine to stand when I want them to just because they are easier to manage when they get a bit fired up, they know the command and they respond....and its not hard...takes about 2 minutes longer each day for each horse when they are worked in the cart, which for mine isn't every day as they often get slow days behind the jogger, which is also a great educational tool for mobiles.

[arlington]

Just adding my thoughts to what Richard said in #8, does seem contentious the Cup isn't a handicap, being a stand. I know, no point in what ifs but what if the mare was of a handicap, or if of the front with less horses (less pressure) and her being known to be iffy (Danno #14)...was she too short priced anyway?


I realise the title of the thread isn't specific to Saturday night but in regards to the Cup, possibly the two best credentialed stand horses did run one two although ironically Kez's horse missed the start a bit. Numerous other fancies failing to fire, even though getting away ok, has put the spotlight on stands via Adore Me?
Side note, I see Arden Rooney is now ODS. Seemed a bit harsh for a few hops and skips.
Edit: I don't think Kerryn or the Butterworth's will be too worried about AR's barrier moves...I'd be naming a dance move after it!