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Thread: Game gradually dying in the Hunter Valley

  1. #11
    Senior Member 2YO HISGEN65 will become famous soon enough HISGEN65's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    I am not overly familiar with racing in regional NSW & I haven't really got the time to do too much detailed research into this subject so I will make a general comment.
    I for one will never begrudge any trainer for working hard & getting huge results but obviously this does cause some problems for the sport in certain areas.
    But I am of the opinion that careful programming can go along way to helping this sort of situation.So maybe this is an area that can be looked at instead of throwing daggers at trainers..
    Yes I know most big stables have their "second stringers" but in general,smart programming/conditions can help...this also overflows to trainers placing their horses a bit smarter.
    As a hobby trainer,who works a full time job,with a small team of giveaways I have to do this..granted some areas have alot more options than others..
    Tough situation in the Hunter by the looks,agreed.

  2. #12
    Junior Member Foal Shane tritton will become famous soon enough
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    Since rob raised the issue about the clash in race dates I think is a massive concern for the area !!!!!

    Currently I race on average 10-14 starts every time I race at Newcastle teir 1 meeting or Menangle metro meeting .. Now these meeting have been allocated the same night which posses the question what do I do with my 20-28 horse when these meeting clash ... 14 horses is the maximum I can transport and race with my staff and vehicles occupied in my business ... Not to mention my stable driver who my owners request now can only attend one of these meetings.. So when it all comes down to it one of these meetings will lose my stable on any given night .. Now I'm sure the powers to be will assume I will just transport my horses to Sydney and forget about Newcastle .. But Newcastle is my home club and I would rather nominate 28 horses for Newcastle then neglect them all together .. Hence the very topic of this forum will occur as now I will be forced to have even more runners at Newcastle ... This does not only effect me ... Trainers like M Formosa and D elder both have a well talented metro horse who they load up and take to Menangle every week .. Now these stables will be forced to choose between their best horse and the rest .. Not to mention any driver at Newcastle (aka young aspiring drivers) will now never get the opportunity to become metro drivers as they will never be able to give up the drives they have at Newcastle to give it a go ....

    Please tell me if anyone else sees a problem with this ...

    And also tell me what would happen to Newcastle if myself , mick , Darren .. Choose to go to Menangle and not race at Newcastle .. And don't forget no trainers coming up from Sydney as metro is on ...

    Where will the horses come from as meetings struggle now .. They could potential lose 40% of the horses they currently have

  3. #13
    Junior Member Yearling lasse will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    Lasse did you find a Newcastle premiership table somewhere or spreadsheet it like I did? The reason I ask is that although I only recorded Shane's, it seemed to me that a small number of trainers won a lot of Newcastle races and would like to see the premiership table (I am not going back and counting everybody's wins!)
    No current premiership details on www.newcastletrots.com site.I went through the seasons results same as you.Off the top of my head I would think Kevin Pizzutto might have a better strike rate at Newcastle.The club would have the figures.

  4. #14
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasse View Post
    No current premiership details on www.newcastletrots.com site.I went through the seasons results same as you.Off the top of my head I would think Kevin Pizzutto might have a better strike rate at Newcastle.The club would have the figures.
    I doubt anyone could have a better strike rate per race contested (51%) but maybe per starter. I was only scanning for Shane but it seemed to me that you saw other names winning quite a lot too: Pizzuto, Formosa, Harmey, Roots
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  5. #15
    Member Yearling Rob Nalder will become famous soon enough
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    Shane,

    You probably need to talk to HRNSW as to the exact reasons behind more Saturday night dates for Newcastle. All I know is what I read in the Trotguide this week. As to the why I can only suggest it was at the request of the Newcastle Club as I know they have done it tough after they lost all the Saturday nights, Ros Gigg was always On my case big time hounding for the dates back when ever we got together.

    As to what they race on Sky 1 or 2 will be interesting as going from a Friday Sky 1 night to posably Saturday on Sky 2.

    I do understand your concerns in trying to be in two places on the same night is going to be extremely difficult to say the least.

    Hopefully you can continue with what you do best for the sport by finding a way around it all. If anyone can find a way you will.

    All the best,

    Rob Nalder

  6. #16
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    I am beginning to think it was a bad idea starting this thread, firstly some people seem to think I was having a dig at Shane, which is 100% incorrect, the point was ENTIRELY to highlight that current circumstances are making it difficult for many smaller participants to continue and I know ( from the number of private messages/texts and phone calls) the vast majority of our learned forum posters have interpreted the points of the thread as such.


    The overall good of the game has always and will always be my personal objective, I have only ever been a hobbyist but have always been a passionate one who , anyone who actually knows me, also knows I'm someone who loves heroes and despises pretenders in EVERY AVENUE of life.


    So I would ask those who think I'm having a dig at Shane to think again......the thread was and is about the game, not the players. I thought I made that clear in the opening post but apparently not sufficiently so.


    With regards to the allocation of more Saturday meetings to Newcastle, about all I can add to that is about bloody time, the club at Newcastle, (of which I am a member and also a director in it's formative years in it's current form back in the early 80's) was forced to race TAB meetings on Saturdays a very long time ago because Moonee Valley wanted to race Friday nights in concert with Harold Park in order to increase their own TAB turnover and hence returns ( at the time Club/ TAB payments were a defined percentage of turnover). So Newcastle, who at the time were racing most Friday nights and getting very good turnover and hence TAB funding partly because they were racing "in concert" with Harold Park, got SHAFTED and given the less lucrative Saturday night meetings.


    The Newcastle club, lead exceptionally well for a long time by Ross had done a superb job of making Saturday Night racing a real success story and the club developed a business model which has been /was very successful for close to twenty years.


    As such I'm not real keen to hear anyone having a whinge about Newcastle racing on a Saturday.

  7. #17
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Danno, I do not know of any feedback you may have received about this thread other than the posts on it. For my part, I decided to investigate the dominance of one trainer, which you suggested was leaving too little for many others to survive. Mine and Lasse's sums showed that Shane Tritton is taking 27% of the pie.

    I do not think you were having a dig at Shane but questioning whether his dominance was harmful. I am guessing the reason you did not name Shane was because, as you say, the issue you wished to raise was the possible effect of one trainer dominating a region. Your reference to how some of their runners improve suddenly possibly confused the issue and I think may have been better omitted as it had no real relevance to your topic of discussion.

    As it turned out Shane's dominance is greater than what he thought it was but less than what you thought it was.
    In doing my sums I did notice, although Shane's was the dominant name, there were other trainers also winning what seemed like a large percentage of races. I wonder whether these few as a collective have the potential to see others give away the game? If I have another day where I am rained in, I may extend my spreadsheet to examine how few trainers are indeed reaping 50% of the spoils at Newcastle.

    I do not see anything wrong with your thread. It is not unlike the past debates we have had on this forum regarding the Halls or the Purdon/Rasmussen dominance
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  8. #18
    Member Gelding Sofoulis will become famous soon enough
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    I'm going to add my two-cents on this debate re: Hunter Valley racing.


    Despite the issues it causes for Shane, I agree with the others posting here that it could be a good thing Newcastle is racing on Saturday nights again, but I believe the programming leaves plenty to be desired. Rather than complain, I offer the following solution to HRNSW: have Newcastle race on Saturdays throughout the year (rather than just chucking 7 consecutive Saturdays at them during the winter months) but swap some of them with the restricted meetings held mid-week. I think the benefits of this proposal are:


    1. hobby/smaller trainers will be more confident that when there is a restricted meeting on a Saturday, professional trainers with metro teams such as Tritton, Formosa etc. are less likely to have full teams attending Newcastle and therefore the hobby trainers are more likely to run and have success;


    2. hobby/smaller trainers are more likely to attend a Saturday meeting relative to a mid-week meeting when they may have other work commitments;


    3. Menangle and Newcastle won't always be competing for nominations from the same pool of horses; and


    4. A consistent Saturday meeting is more likely to see attendances lift as people will know that Saturday is the home of racing at Newcastle.


    In relation to Shane's success hurting the game in the Hunter Valley, consider the following key points:


    1. I have gone from having a just few horses in WA to having ~20 horses in the Hunter (not just with Shane) and none here in WA (acknowledging I have three in QLD that were previously in the Hunter). The only reason I even have horses in the Hunter Valley is because of Shane and I know this is the case for other owners associated with Shane; and


    2. Hunter Valley racing is bigger than just one trainer... I won't say "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" but I will say that a number of years ago in tennis, the powers that be were under pressure to address the dominance of the players with the big serve. There was talk of them limiting racquet technology, using bigger or softer tennis balls, or even only allowing one serve rather than two.............. What did happen was that the players and coaches adapted. The returners and counter-punchers became a force, like Agassi, Hewitt etc. What did happen in the Hunter was that some trainers felt they were entitled to break the rules to deal with the dominance of the big server - and no doubt this has contributed to a decline in numbers.


    Lastly, in relation to the comment made that Shane is a super trainer that turns horses around "virtually overnight", whilst I am the first to sing the praises of Shane and Lauren as a trainer/driver combination (along with their team of stablehands and support drivers), there have been plenty of horses that have come past his stable (including those I bought) that have failed. In my view, the key reason for Shane appearing to turn so many horses around is that he will tell the connections pretty bluntly if he thinks a horse is not suited to his training style... and move them on... (I have moved many on that have subsequently won multiple races with other trainers).


    P.s. Shane: get off this notice board and get back to looking after Lauren!


  9. #19
    Senior Member 3YO barney will become famous soon enough
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    I am a small punter who for awhile had success at Newcastle but have now made it a no bet venue, mainly because of Shanes dominance the same reason i gave away betting on Mildura when the Crumps were dominating.The reason behind my decision is simply there horses are always short priced and dont let the average punter get a return for effort.I also dont bet on races where Emma Stewart is involved for the same reason.
    Good luck to Shane as he seems to be an honest trainer that is having great success but it is not good for the sport in general for any stable to be so dominant.

  10. #20
    Senior Member 2YO HISGEN65 will become famous soon enough HISGEN65's Avatar
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    Hi Danno,
    I think it is a good thread mate & very relevant.
    It is crucial for the continued survival of the sport that the lower levels of the racing fraternity are catered for,as it plays just as an
    important role as the upper echelon.
    Up here in QLD the top few stables dominate the scene but to the authorities credit they have provided us with a broad range of programmed racing & conditioned racing that allows us Neville Nobodys to be competitive & enjoy our chosen sport at our selected meetings.
    They have obviously looked at the whole region,the pool of licensed participants,the horse pool & have attempted to program races strategically to keep everyone in the game
    which I think they have succeeded in doing in recent times.
    Yes I have to take time off work & do some travelling but it is either that or give it away.We would all love to race where we want to but we have to be realistic.

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