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Thread: How do we get people to breed more horses?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Adaptor will become famous soon enough
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    The costs associated with breeding...not just the service fee
    One intersting point raised at Bendigo during the recent HRV consultation process was the cost of breeding.....not just the service fee.
    It's the veterinary fees that go along with AI breeding and using the transported chilled and frozen semen, as compared to the natural service that was once the norm that may be preventing and reducing breeding.
    One active participant (long time owner, trainer, driver) has 6 mares that could be bred from, but is probably going to breed from the best one or possibly two, due to the associated costs.
    That's just to get the mare in foal !
    I haven't been involved in the breeding of horses for a long time, so have no accurate costing.
    What does it cost on top of the service fee?
    Last edited by Adaptor; 10-11-2015 at 04:01 PM.

  2. #22
    Member Yearling Jimbob will become famous soon enough
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    David Wyborn
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    We are putting 3 mares (hopefully) in foal this year. Vet bill $600-$1000 per foal. Semen transport(inc delivery and pick up) up to $180 per foal. Agistment for the mares. $60-$70 per week depending on amount of grass. We use these services as the mare is looked after in the best possible way giving the future foal the best chance. Once the horse is off the mother, you then have breaking in costs (I am very lucky to have my brother do a fantastic job of this). Not to mention food for the horse. I have a cost of $5000 - $6500 per horse to get them from semen to 2 year old (ready to win races) lol plus the cost of the semen (this year for the three horses will be $12500). I spend a year trying my best to match up my Broodmares to the best stallions i can afford, as it is a big loss if you get it wrong. I know people can do it cheaper with their own properties etc, but this is how much it costs if you don't.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Colt Mark Croatto will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaptor View Post
    The costs associated with breeding...not just the service fee
    One intersting point raised at Bendigo during the recent HRV consultation process was the cost of breeding.....not just the service fee.
    It's the veterinary fees that go along with AI breeding and using the transported chilled and frozen semen, as compared to the natural service that was once the norm that may be preventing and reducing breeding.
    One active participant (long time owner, trainer, driver) has 6 mares that could be bred from, but is probably going to breed from the best one or possibly two, due to the associated costs.
    That's just to get the mare in foal !
    I haven't been involved in the breeding of horses for a long time, so have no accurate costing.
    What does it cost on top of the service fee?
    Hi Noel

    That's a very relevant angle to consider this discussion from. There is no doubt that it is far more expensive today to breed a foal; those breeders that used to stand a stallion or two, and had their own band of mares which they bred every season, no longer exist. If they do they are in a very small minority, but many of them had their 20 to 30 mares and I suppose, as a group they were responsible for a significant proportion of the foal population each season. Their costs were well down on today as most of these services were natural rather than AI.

    I suppose this approach to breeding was good for numbers as their foals were broken in on mass, those that showed natural ability and were quick to learn were kept, the others were sold off cheaply. However, I'm not so sure it was good for the improvement of the breed. It's certainly a factor, at least in NSW when considering the quality of horses today compared to the past, and the degree of involvement by breeders.

    Regards

  4. #24
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Watching the gallops yesterday reminded me of how we need to grow umpteenfold to get our prizemoney up to a level that makes ownership something more than a charitable donation for all but a few (I know I am ignoring the pleasure side)
    You see lots of shots of the crowd and everybody is wearing a suit or a dress - we need the 'high value' followers too
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  5. #25
    Senior Member Colt Mark Croatto will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    Watching the gallops yesterday reminded me of how we need to grow umpteenfold to get our prizemoney up to a level that makes ownership something more than a charitable donation for all but a few (I know I am ignoring the pleasure side)
    You see lots of shots of the crowd and everybody is wearing a suit or a dress - we need the 'high value' followers too
    Hi Kev

    I know what you are getting at, but I really don't see that ever happening. It's a bit like Country Music and Opera, both have their following and exist independent of each other. The people we have in harness is why I'm involved; mostly down to earth country folk. Yes, we need more money but the gallops bang on the same drum as well

  6. #26
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    I think the absolute first thing our game needs is a greater level of participation across the board...(wouldn't worry too much lads about the suits and skirts, the people in those shots are having a day out and dressing up, more often than not beyond their pay grade)


    The question in Harvey's thread is how do we get more people breeding horses.....I hate to over simplify things ( which is a chronic problem of mine) but.........the number of horses being bred is but a symptom of our problem, the real issue is of course demand, not supply.


    There have been many ill founded demand "fixes" over the last few decades, the most damaging to our game in the longer term has been the ridiculous money on offer for 2YO racing......but wait Harvey would have us believe an article written telling us there is not enough money being paid for 2YO's across the other side of the world might make more people want to breed horses here?


    Sorry Harvey I have seen some lame arguments in my time, but that article is probably the most baseless attempt to show a way forward in our games challenges through my personal involvement of almost 50 years.


    We need to face the real challenges our game is facing not simply come up with short term "prop ups"...people need to be breeding more horses because other people are wanting to buy them.....not ANOTHER pathetic short term "fix" that actually chases away 95% of the new people in the hope of retaining 5%......and those are the numbers of success in 2YO racing.
    Last edited by Messenger; 10-11-2015 at 10:26 PM.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I hear you too Mark and it does seem a huge gap but I fear that if we do not try to bridge it we could eventually become not much more than a Melton club here in Vic. 99% of people I see at Stawell RACES tomorrow will be your down to earth country folk but the gallops know how to put on a big Metro show and attract the $ too
    Thinking we must always be inferior is part of what makes us inferior IMO. If we start tomorrow it will take decades but if we don't it will NEVER happen. Call me a dreamer. The way things stand now, I think I can see why people would buy into a galloper rather than a standardbred - even if they would be getting a smaller share
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  8. #28
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    I think the absolute first thing our game needs is a greater level of participation across the board...(wouldn't worry too much lads about the suits and skirts, the people in those shots are having a day out and dressing up, more often than not beyond their pay grade)


    The question in Harvey's thread is how do we get more people breeding horses.....I hate to over simplify things ( which is a chronic problem of mine) but.........the number of horses being bred is but a symptom of our problem, the real issue is of course demand, not supply.


    There have been many ill founded demand "fixes" over the last few decades, the most damaging to our game in the longer term has been the ridiculous money on offer for 2YO racing......but wait Harvey would have us believe an article written telling us there is not enough money being paid for 2YO's across the other side of the world might make more people want to breed horses here?


    Sorry Harvey I have seen some lame arguments in my time, but that article is probably the most baseless attempt to show a way forward in our games challenges through my personal involvement of almost 50 years.


    We need to face the real challenges our game is facing not simply come up with short term "prop ups"...people need to be breeding more horses because other people are wanting to buy them.....not ANOTHER pathetic short term "fix" that actually chases away 95% of the new people in the hope of retaining 5%......and those are the numbers of success in 2YO racing.
    Dan, I think the first 2 replies to Harvey's OP established that the question is how do we get more people to buy yearlings and a question of demand

    ps I think you will find an incredible number of those suits at the gallops are young people willing to spend money - we need them
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  9. #29
    Member Filly codywinnell will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackthepunter View Post
    A massive amount of money has to be put in to country racing, thats were 99% of the sport compete and are trying to make enough to survive, and the country prize money is disgraceful and a slap in the face for all involved. Only one horse can win a big 2-3 year old race or open class race and only 12 horses can get in the fields. The reality is most horses are lucky if they can make it to the races and even luckier if they can win one race. A classic example of this down here in vic, is the latest prize money increases nearly all of it went into big races. You cant honesty think people long term are going to keep buying yearling or breeding horses when in 99% times their going to be racing in the country for on average $3,848 for a win, I mean really that doesn't even cover the cost of that preparation to get the horse to the races.
    Hi Jack,
    I'd be interested in knowing how you come up with your figures.
    The stakes increases you have referenced by saying "a classic example of this down here in vic, is the latest prize money increases nearly all of it went into big races". are quite interesting.
    The following is the full list of stakes increases that were announced by Victoria. Can you please define what you mean by "nearly all" in the above statement? I'll bold the bits where I think you've erred.

    • Graduation races from $3000 to $3500 (42 meetings a year)
    • Metropolitan front M1 and TM1 or better class events by $1000 a race
    • Country fillies and mares races by $1000 a race (excluding Futurity races)
    • Country penalty races at Tabcorp Park Melton metropolitan meetings by $1000 a race
    • Payments for horses that finish sixth to last increase by $10.
    • Listed metropolitan feature races from $25,000 to $30,000 (and become Group 3 events)
    • Hunter Cup from $400,000 to $500,000
    • 4YO & 5YO Championship from $50,000 to $75,000
    • 4YO Bonanza from $30,000 to $100,000 (becomes Victoria’s first non-Futurity Group 1 for four-year-olds)
    • Vicbred First Win bonus for 4YOs increases from $5000 to $7000 in line with 2YO and 3YO bonuses (estimated increase of $430,000)
    • Country Pacing Cups prize money increases by $154,000
    • Country Trotting Cups prize money increases by $57,000
    • Maori Mile at Bendigo from $30,000 to $50,000 (becomes a Group 1)

    When you consider Vicbred First Win Bonus changing to include 4yos alone is estimated at an increase of $430,000, and the increases in stakes opportunities for graduation races, of which there are 42 meetings annually, country fillies and mares races, country penalty races at Melton and increased earnings for horses that finish 6th to last, I'd challenge your expressed views as being rather flawed.

    We all know country trots folk need to be able to race for enough prizemoney to earn a proper crust, which is why I think the most recent stakes announcement here in Victoria was so encouraging and a step in the right direction.

  10. #30
    Senior Member 2YO jackthepunter will become famous soon enough
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    Jack Dixon
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    Quote Originally Posted by codywinnell View Post
    Hi Jack,
    I'd be interested in knowing how you come up with your figures.
    The stakes increases you have referenced by saying "a classic example of this down here in vic, is the latest prize money increases nearly all of it went into big races". are quite interesting.
    The following is the full list of stakes increases that were announced by Victoria. Can you please define what you mean by "nearly all" in the above statement? I'll bold the bits where I think you've erred.

    Graduation races from $3000 to $3500 (42 meetings a year)
    • Metropolitan front M1 and TM1 or better class events by $1000 a race
    Country fillies and mares races by $1000 a race (excluding Futurity races)
    Country penalty races at Tabcorp Park Melton metropolitan meetings by $1000 a race
    Payments for horses that finish sixth to last increase by $10.
    • Listed metropolitan feature races from $25,000 to $30,000 (and become Group 3 events)
    • Hunter Cup from $400,000 to $500,000
    • 4YO & 5YO Championship from $50,000 to $75,000
    • 4YO Bonanza from $30,000 to $100,000 (becomes Victoria’s first non-Futurity Group 1 for four-year-olds)
    Vicbred First Win bonus for 4YOs increases from $5000 to $7000 in line with 2YO and 3YO bonuses (estimated increase of $430,000)
    • Country Pacing Cups prize money increases by $154,000
    • Country Trotting Cups prize money increases by $57,000
    • Maori Mile at Bendigo from $30,000 to $50,000 (becomes a Group 1)

    When you consider Vicbred First Win Bonus changing to include 4yos alone is estimated at an increase of $430,000, and the increases in stakes opportunities for graduation races, of which there are 42 meetings annually, country fillies and mares races, country penalty races at Melton and increased earnings for horses that finish 6th to last, I'd challenge your expressed views as being rather flawed.

    We all know country trots folk need to be able to race for enough prizemoney to earn a proper crust, which is why I think the most recent stakes announcement here in Victoria was so encouraging and a step in the right direction.
    IMO all that money and any future stake increases should go into country prize money, because country races is where the heart of the sport is, and the prize money is know where near good enough or sustainable for the future. Metro prize money while not great didn't need to be increase nor did these other race your listed, because their all ready had enough money and the same horses would have run in them anyway. I do find increasing races like the 4yo bonanza by $70,000 beyond ridiculous, the same with those other races because imo their didn't need urget help or an increase. The Graduation race system doesn't work the way it should anyway, its supposed to give horses with not much ability the chance to earn money but alot of the time it doesn't because you at hrv, run to many heat and final races which allow good horses to run in them and use them as trails, or u get alot of noms for one class and none for another so you split the two races same problem again. A good example is last nite at shepparton, what is a horse like iceobar doing running at this meeting?? All these races should be ran as restricted class races eg, ro,r1 races so the horses their supposed to help are the ones getting a chance to earn in them, get rid of the heat and finals and give people a chance.

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