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Thread: Odds On Favourites under the VIC tiered system 2016-17

  1. #131
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    You're right Anne LOL - pillage is a bit strong. I noticed on that same day there were three 3C0 races but no alternatives for the better 3yo's. David or programmers, if you are reading - how about more open 3yo races
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  2. #132
    Member Filly Bonnie will become famous soon enough
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    Thanks Kev.

  3. #133
    Senior Member 2YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    " From my interactions with many people, there is a strong desire to retain the no penalty 3500 races. Most attention focuses on the $5000 races where a penalty is incurred, so as we prepare plans for 2018/19, that will be an area to review."

    Above is an extract from a post from David Martin, and below a link to a press release announcing an increase in prizemoney from $3500 to $4000 for restricted races, and an increase in the number of restricted $4000 races. Perhaps David could drop in and advise what is happening with C class races, particularly $5000 races, now only $1000 more then a restricted race and at the cost of a country penalty.

    https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/med...es-in-2018-19/

  4. #134
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    Totally agree Dot. $5000 races should be abolished and Country Penalty Races a minimum of $7000. Losing a Country penalty for a $1000 difference is ridiculous.

  5. #135
    Senior Member 2YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    I agree Ann, and have to say that from my interpretation of David's previous comments this press release raising prizemoney for restricted events ahead of addressing the inequity of losing a restricted penalty for wining a $3500 race ( non penalty race is a common misnomer used when describing restricted races, they aren't penalty free but don't incur a country penalty) and losing a country penalty and a restricted penalty for winning a $5000 race took me by complete surprise.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Can see where you're coming from Dot, address the 5K before the bottom up races. But I don't think it was cart before the horse. The increase to R has been on the cards for a while, just waiting for HRA to accept/allow an increase. It may well be addressing the 5K may/would depend on how the 4k, more so the increase in number, will fund the increase to 5K races.
    I guess you could wait and announce simultaneously.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Thoughts on just R $4000 and C $8000, or whatever the maximum the budget allows, across the board?

  8. #138
    Senior Member 2YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    May have been on the cards for sometime Wayne but to me it is putting the cart before the horse. All participants, call them what you may are effected by $5000 C class races, and the penalties incurred for winning one, R races are often restricted entry forcing grassroots participants to nominate for C class. I am for supporting the grassroots but I don't see how this is doing it. Surely higher prizemoney in restricted grade and only a restricted penalty incentivises participants considered higher then grass roots to nominate for restricted grade, and in my twenty years as a grassroots trainer the calibre of the opposition in R races and the probability of winning one has been of greater concern to grass roots trainers then the actual prizemoney.

    In this day and age there can be little doubt that new owners are difficult to come by, I fear that this focus on increasing restricted prizemoney will back fire and drive them further away rather then incentivise new owners to become involved. In my view country front prizemoney should have been increased to a higher minimum first, say $7000, even if that meant reducing the number of $10,000 C races, and clearly differentiated from restricted race prizemoney.

    I doubt we can attract new owners focussing on restricted grade races and it should be country front racing with a minimum level of $7000 that we market as the "normal" entry level for new owners or participants entering the industry. From this position there are two ways to go, up to Metro and feature level racing, and a fallback position of participation at restricted level.

    In time as hopefully our financial position improves then increase prizemoney for both, even if it is just a $100 at a time but maintain a clear distinction between the two.
    Last edited by Dot; 07-10-2018 at 02:05 PM.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    I agree with a lot of your thoughts Dot, hence my post, Thoughts on just R $4000 and C $8000, or whatever the maximum the budget allows, across the board? In posting that, and as a hobbyist, I'd have no qualms at all if R remained at $3500 and max the $C. C$5000 doesn't incentivise anyone, new or existing.

    I'd be surprised if the focus was on R racing, but point taken in announcing this increase first. I wonder if the trainers and drivers association welcoming the R increase might be conditional to an increase to C5K? Whilst the VTDA doesn't represent owners it/they do realise who butter's their bread? Or was it the association/club that represents owners having the push behind the increase to R?

    Quoting you,
    I doubt we can attract new owners focussing on restricted grade races and it should be country front racing with a minimum level of $7000 that we market as the "normal" entry level for new owners or participants entering the industry. From this position there are two ways to go, up to Metro and feature level racing, and a fallback position of participation at restricted level.
    100% agree, echoed my thoughts as a current owner and has more influence on me looking at a sales or stallion catalogue in the future.

    Having said that, HRV's number crunching that led to the R increase would have also included keeping current horse numbers on the track, hence the new distribution of the 4K. Short sighted or reactive to the health status of the sport?

  10. #140
    Senior Member 2YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Id be happy with 4 and 8k are the end goal Wayne but the $5k C front needs to be done away with, no one should lose a country penalty for only a few hundred dollars more then they would receive winning in R class, and yes if R class needs to remain at $3500 for a while more to do it then so be it.

    If the focus hasn't switched to a greater volume of R racing at slightly higher stakes at the expense of C racing then this is a poorly worded press release and should not have been published in isolation. I don't know what organisation were consulted, and this press release appears to fly in the face of David Martins earlier comments on this forum. At the risk of offending someone the VDTA response reads as organisational head nodding at something is better then nothing type stuff.

    I am a breeder as well Wayne and a country harness racing economy based on $4000 restricted races will certainly have me rethinking joining mares in spring. Simply cannot justify the costs involved to produce to sell or pay training fees in a $4000 race economy.

    No doubt the increase in restricted races has bought horses that were in the paddock back to the track, but how many more of these are there out there? How will $4000 races bring back more then $3500 races did, there are only so many of these horses that can be mobilised before the supply is exhausted. To offset or prevent a continuing fall in racing numbers then more horses need to be bred, there is a three year lag minimum in getting them to the track, addressing this has to start now, and for mine a guaranteed minimum country front goal of $7000 is the starting point to doing so.

    The press release was big on stating this was about getting the money to the people that need it most, but is this really the way to do it, and who are the people who need it most. Seems as if only the raw total for R races have been taken into account and not the distribution to participants.

    I'm happy to be proven wrong but all races have prizemoney to 5th and then the starters subsidy to each additional starter, so races with the most number of starters provide the poorest level of return to the greatest number of participants. From my observations R races often have less starters then C races, so in fact many R race level participants may be receiving a higher level of return ( not necessarily easier to win but easier to be in the places and earn prizemoney in a small field rather then the subsidy) then many C class participants racing in larger fields are. Those racing trotters appear to be most hard done by as these are often the largest fields. After $5000 C fronts are gone, maybe the next thing to do is to link the number of places paid out in a race to the number of starters and share the spoils around more evenly then occurs now.

    HRNSW is building a new track in Wagga and they have stepped ahead of the rest of us with the introduction of prizemoney handicapping in Metro racing at Menangle and now mares racing. If the expansion of this format continues it is easy to see our C class horses at least in Northern Victoria after they have won their bonus racing at Wagga where the prizemoney handicapping format will see them "recycled" and their earning opportunities improved, unless we have a strong C class racing format that entices them to stay and that funnels them through the to Metro class at Melton.

    I appreciate that the new board and David Martin took over at a difficult time and first priority had to be to plug the holes to stop the ship from sinking. But there comes a time where the ship must get back underway even if it is not entirely pristine and water tight yet, for it will take considerable time to build back up to full steam ahead.

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