Majestic Mach

[Triple V]

HYPP is Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis. There is actually a human version of this.

HERDA is Heriditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia.

So yes VVV SERIOUSLY, you need to get out more.

[VVV] Ahuh. Dot...please if you would now cite so much a single case of either of those diseases ever occurring in the Standardbred?
While you're at it could you please also cite even a single case of any other genetically inherited disease...anything at all which can be directly & conclusively attributable to the Breeding Industry line breeding to a specific sire and/or group of sires.

[2minuteman]

I know that I am treading on very,very shaky ground entering this discussion as I am so totally not with the breeding industry,but I am sure that my recollection of an interview with the owner of Christian Cullen, about why they were going to the States, was because the industry there had become so inbred that they were actually breeding Mongoloid horses.This statement was not challenged at the time.I am not saying it was a correct statement,but I am sure someone will know one way or the other.

[Triple V]

WOW! I've heard some absolute rippers from the genetic alarmists along the old chestnut line of 'the sky is falling...the gene pool is shrinking' & at the time I thought Ken Jackson & his hired gun genetics talkin' guy were already on scientifically shakey ground and I said the same to anyone who'd listen...but geeze, you reckon that Dobby said they were breeding Mongoloid horses in the USA? . That should have been accompanied by the music from the opening credits of 'The Twilight Zone' and the dulcet tones of the late, great Rod Serling.

[dizzy]

[VVV] Ahuh. Dot...please if you would now cite so much a single case of either of those diseases ever occurring in the Standardbred?
While you're at it could you please also cite even a single case of any other genetically inherited disease...anything at all which can be directly & conclusively attributable to the Breeding Industry line breeding to a specific sire and/or group of sires.

It would appear VVV that you are afflicted with your own genetic mutation as possibly the result of indiscriminate breeding in your own heritage, or as the result of a spontaneous mutation that interfers with your ability to read and comprehend as the questions you ask have already been answered in a previous post.

[dizzy]

I know that I am treading on very,very shaky ground entering this discussion as I am so totally not with the breeding industry,but I am sure that my recollection of an interview with the owner of Christian Cullen, about why they were going to the States, was because the industry there had become so inbred that they were actually breeding Mongoloid horses.This statement was not challenged at the time.I am not saying it was a correct statement,but I am sure someone will know one way or the other.

Ron I don't know what Ian said but it would not surprise me if a lay person such as Ian interpreted what the experts said and articulated it in the fashion that you describe.It's a somewhat course way of stating it but in essence is on the money.

Despite what VVV claims the gene pool in the US, and Australia is shrinking. 10 years after John Wallace started the trotting register in 1870 odd there were over 16000 stallions and 30000 mares in it recorded as standard. In North America there are around 900 stallions today and in Australia around 300 being used for breeding. Each stallion does not serve equal numbers of mares with a large number of stallions serving as little as one mare. The mare population numbers around 30000 in total I believe. Proffesor Groves in his book classic families identified around 3000 foundation mare families in the USA, there are only around 300 active today with the remainder being extinct. I don't know if some one has done the numbers for the southern hemisphere but a similar trend could be expected.


In todays North American standardbred due to popularity of certain lines and the loss/culling of others the herd is very heavily populated with the descendants of the most popular stallions, Abercrombie largely through his sons Artsplace and to a lessor degree Life Sign and Albert Albert and of course there are others. As VVV points out the Meadow Skipper lines is very hidely spread through out the population but most of it through the descendents of his most successful sire son Most Happy Fella and then through his son Cam Fella and grandson No Nukes and their very successful sire sons. In other words the breed is becoming very heavy infused with the blood of relatively few horses.

Despite what VVV thinks inbreeding depression is real and encroaching on our herd. The most common characteristics of inbreeding depression are a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system. For those that don't believe me or believe that these things result from inbreeding/intense line breeding go and ask a cattle or sheep farmer who breeds for the meat market. They are very aware of it as size is a critical function of the profitability of their industry, unlike ours.

As to Christian Cullen he has no Abercrombie blood, no Cam Fella blood and no No Nukes blood thus his importance in opening up the gene pool some in North America. Unfortunately he wasn't extensively used. Now despite what VVV thinks inbreeding does increase the risk of a genetic mutation happening, or it can just happen spontaneously. The end result is if it was a mutation that caused a very negative outcome in the herd such as the diseases I mentioned previously, and there are a least 4 more in Quarter horses, 6 in Arabians and another bunch in coloured horses. Just because it hasn't happened to us yet doesn't mean it cant. Perhaps it already has, many of the genetic diseases in the other breeds cause late term abortions and early death in foals. The quarter horses and arabians know because both breed registries contribute large sums to genetic research. To the best of my knowledge we don't contribute any money to genetic research, we just have people like VVV lamenting the low live foal percentages each year. Heres where VVV says but its still simalar to years ago, it is but how much has neo natal foal nursing improved?

Not all genetic mutations are unfavourable to the breed though. Just to prove to the likes of VVV that it can happen, remember Art Majors white colt in North America early last year and Courage under Fires near white colt this season. Both of those are the result of a spontaneous gene mutation, which in this case just makes them a pretty colour. If either were to stand at stud then we could expect a number of their foals to also have the mutation and be white or near white in colour.

And of course if it wern't for the DMRT3 mutation we wouldn't have a breed or an industry.

VVV just because there hasn't been a horrendous disease show up yet does not mean that it cant, I am sorry that there isn't a 101 version for dummies written yet on this stuff because then perhaps you would better understand.

[Triple V]

It would appear VVV that you are afflicted with your own genetic mutation as possibly the result of indiscriminate breeding in your own heritage, or as the result of a spontaneous mutation that interfers with your ability to read and comprehend as the questions you ask have already been answered in a previous post.

[VVV] Those Mens Jeans are riding up again eh?

[Triple V]

Ron I don't know what Ian said but it would not surprise me if a lay person such as Ian interpreted what the experts said and articulated it in the fashion that you describe.It's a somewhat course way of stating it but in essence is on the money.

Despite what VVV claims the gene pool in the US, and Australia is shrinking. 10 years after John Wallace started the trotting register in 1870 odd there were over 16000 stallions and 30000 mares in it recorded as standard. In North America there are around 900 stallions today and in Australia around 300 being used for breeding. Each stallion does not serve equal numbers of mares with a large number of stallions serving as little as one mare. The mare population numbers around 30000 in total I believe. Proffesor Goves in his book classic families identified around 3000 foundation mare families in the USA, there are only around 300 active today with the remainder being extinct. I don't know if some one has done the numbers for the southern hemisphere but a similar trend could be expected.


In todays North American standardbred due to popularity of certain lines and the loss/culling of others the herd is very heavily populated with the descendants of the most popular stallions, Abercrombie largely through his sons Artsplace and to a lessor degree Life Sign and Albert Albert and of course there are others. As VVV points out the Meadow Skipper lines is very hidely spread through out the population but most of it through the descendents of his most successful sire son Most Happy Fella and then through his son Cam Fella and grandson No Nukes and their very successful sire sons. In other words the breed is becoming very heavy infused with the blood of relatively few horses.

Despite what VVV thinks inbreeding depression is real and encroaching on our herd. The most common characteristics of inbreeding depression are a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system. For those that don't believe me or believe that these things result from inbreeding/intense line breeding go and ask a cattle or sheep farmer who breeds for the meat market. They are very aware of it as size is a critical function of the profitability of their industry, unlike ours.

As to Christian Cullen he has no Abercrombie blood, no Cam Fella blood and no No Nukes blood thus his importance in opening up the gene pool some in North America. Unfortunately he wasn't extensively used. Now despite what VVV thinks inbreeding does increase the risk of a genetic mutation happening, or it can just happen spontaneously. The end result is if it was a mutation that caused a very negative outcome in the herd such as the diseases I mentioned previously, and there are a least 4 more in Quarter horses, 6 in Arabians and another bunch in coloured horses. Just because it hasn't happened to us yet doesn't mean it cant. Perhaps it already has, many of the genetic diseases in the other breeds cause late term abortions and early death in foals. The quarter horses and arabians know because both breed registries contribute large sums to genetic research. To the best of my knowledge we don't contribute any money to genetic research, we just have people like VVV lamenting the low live foal percentages each year. Heres where VVV says but its still simalar to years ago, it is but how much has neo natal foal nursing improved?

Not all genetic mutations are unfavourable to the breed though. Just to prove to the likes of VVV that it can happen, remember Art Majors white colt in North America earlier in the year and Courage under Fires near white colt this season. Both of those are the result of a spontaneous gene mutation, which in this case just makes them a pretty colour. If either were to stand at stud then we could expect a number of their foals to also have the mutation and be white or near white in colour.

And of course if it wern't for the DMRT3 mutation we wouldn't have a breed or an industry.

VVV just because there hasn't been a horrendous disease show up yet does not mean that it cant, I am sorry that there isn't a 101 version for dummies written yet on this stuff because then perhaps you would better understand.

[VVV] Dot, the above amounts to 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.
You've made an excuse for Dobby apparently saying the Americans were breeding Mongoloid horses and that was one of the reasons why Christian Cullen had to go up there...the inference being to save the breed.
You've then inexplicably bemoaned the fact that over the years unsuccessful families and sirelines have been let go in favour of successful families and sirelines...fancy that eh?
You've then highlighted three aspects that you see as encroaching on our breed [a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system.] without so much as offering up scientifically indisputable examples of same in the Standardbred and then proceeded to Chicken Little about that which has to date never happened and is most unlikely to happen, if it ever happens at all.
Following on from that you've then seen fit to twist out of all recognition my long held position on the terrible Live Foals to Mares PTIF % we have here in Australia (from memory, it is some 75% of mares PTIF, resulting in some 61-62% Live Reigstered Foals), and one where the fault lies to a very large degree with Animal Husbandry and NOT genetic issues.
Speak to the Studs, they'll tell you how bad that aspect is...and in a private moment many of those involved with the various State based Breeders Associations tell you the same.
Undaunted by reality and facts you then turned that Straw Man into a Dot powered rail against that which is not in fact happening.????
Go check the HRA Sires Fertility Stats for yourself if you don't believe me. You'll find the page format & the information displayed there is that which I pushed hard for years and went out of my way to have redesigned & with the Breeders Panel support ultimately succeeded in doing so...so that it actually clearly reflected BOTH a Sire's ability to get Mares in foal and then properly attributed subsequent losses to the Mares side of the equation, aka the aforementioned Animal Husbandry issues.
Incidentally, you totally failed to take into account the advent and widespread adoption of Semen Transport having somewhat of a negative effect on overall fertility...i.e. more mares will go on foal more often when they're served on farm as opposed to being spread across the length and breadth of the Sthn Hemisphere.

If your Mens Jeans keep riding up and chaffing you Dot, no need to get all bent out of shape and aim up at me. I don't work for Levi's.

[dizzy]

[VVV] The really hilarious aspect to the above statement Dot is that of the half dozen or so yearlings bred 2x3, 2x4, 3x2 etc to Artsplace that are set to sell in the upcoming APG Sales, 4 or 5 are being offered by 3 of Australia's leading/most successful Breeders. Imagine that?

That would be the same breeders who offered up the majority of lots in the 2009 APG premium sale in Melbourne would it VVV? You know the premium sale where the best bred lots were sold right? You know, the sale where only 20% of yearlings had managed to win back their purchase price by the end of their 3yo season.

[dizzy]

VVV what makes the standardbred immune from the problems that can beset other breeds and infact other species? Next you'll be calling for the laws on incest and marrying first cousins be repealed.

[Triple V]

Next you'll be calling for the laws on incest and marrying first cousins be repealed.

[VVV] It was obviously legal back when your folks got together.