Jereme's Jet

[mango]

Would anyone know how many mare's Jereme's Jet served in 2010

[newschool]

For this season I believe he was restricted to 100 mares because of problems arising from his shipment back to Canada. My understanding is that the 100 mare quota was attained and access for additional mares was then restricted. We bred 3 mares to him and found the semen quality to be just fine, so I'm not sure whether the restricted use was necessary.

[mango]

Hi newschool
Thanks and i found out Jereme served 117 and he wasn't restricted due to his semen it was due to him getting a bit crook due to an infected tooth.

[Thomas Johnson]

I would say he will get a lot more mares this coming season in Canada as a result of the Harisburg Sale. They sold for unreal money. The Canadians have got just so much money at the moment and they were thwe big buyers. I am still not sure if he will make it at stud as he is a Western Hanover but he certainly has been given a huge chance.

[mango]

Thomas
Not to be rude but it seems that you don't like the Western Hanover line, could you please explain and give me some insight as in Aus we don't see or hear everything about the stallions over there and also what stallion line do you like.

[newschool]

By my count, there have been at least 29 sons and 12 grandsons of Western Hanover that have been active breeding stallions. Two of his sons, Western Ideal and The Panderosa, have in total at least 12 sons that are also active stallions. In my opinion, Jeremes Jet is probably an upgrade on Western Ideal

[mango]

Hi Newschool
So you would rank Jereme's Jet an upgrade on Western Ideal, Western Ideal has done a great job at stud why would you consider Jereme an upgrade?

[Thomas Johnson]

Thomas
Not to be rude but it seems that you don't like the Western Hanover line, could you please explain and give me some insight as in Aus we don't see or hear everything about the stallions over there and also what stallion line do you like.

Mango
Yes I am not a fan of Western Hanover as they are well known to be moody bad tempered horses. That whole line is the same.
You have to like Western Ideal though and he might be the one that carries a good line on through Rocknroll Hanover, maybe, but the jury is still out yet on him as well. As for other sons of Western Hanover like I said earlier they all leave good lookers but overall are not appealing horses for the trainers. I really believe history will tell you long term that the Western Hanover line will not do as well as many people think. They have been dissapointing to date except for Western Ideal.

[mango]

Hi Thomas
Thats good to hear as my Mach3 mare had a Western Ideal filly, so which line do you prefer example Artsplace/Art Major. Would like to know your thoughts and why.

[Termite]

Certainly in Australia and New Zealand sons of western hanover have yet to achieve as expected at stud. I will be surprised if JJ changes this pattern. I do however, think that sons of Western Ideal could have the genetic capacity to produce in this part of the world. Dawn ofa new day left a couple of real nice horses from limited opportunities and he was only just a racehorse himself. I will be watching very closely to see what the progeny of American Ideal throw up in this forthcoming 2YO season down under.

[Joe Fitz]

Mango
Yes I am not a fan of Western Hanover as they are well known to be moody bad tempered horses. That whole line is the same.
You have to like Western Ideal though and he might be the one that carries a good line on through Rocknroll Hanover, maybe, but the jury is still out yet on him as well. As for other sons of Western Hanover like I said earlier they all leave good lookers but overall are not appealing horses for the trainers. I really believe history will tell you long term that the Western Hanover line will not do as well as many people think. They have been dissapointing to date except for Western Ideal.

Rocknroll via Western Ideal may be all he needs. I recall watching Dancer drive Silent Majority, a quick little guy who was very handy on the track but never really set himself apart from the rest in any way--with the exception of producing Abercrombie. When he did that, he rose above all others in the Adios line and made his mark forever.

Wishing Stone, the quick and handy little trotting colt out of Conway Hall, who is distinguishing himself of late, may be a candidate for the same sort of success when he retires from racing.

[newschool]

Hi Newschool
So you would rank Jereme's Jet an upgrade on Western Ideal, Western Ideal has done a great job at stud why would you consider Jereme an upgrade?


Of course Western Ideal has proven himself and Jeremes Jet is still an unproven stallion. My projection that Jeremes Jet will likely evolve into a better stallion than Western Ideal is based on the following:

1)They both have very strong dams born 10 years apart and raced almost the same number of times, but I give the nod to Ohyouprettything. I don't have the year-by-year data for Leah Almahurst, but I suspect Ohyouprettything had better 2-year old results and her 3-year old time was almost 2 seconds faster.
2)My analysis indicates that Western Hanover's pedigree matches up better with Ohyouprettything than with Leah Almahurst in 3 ways:
- a stronger Meadow Skipper presence,
- a beneficial Good Time match, and
- a double Volomite match further back in her pedigree
3)Western Ideal had his best year at age 5 with earnings that year of $1,220,000 and a time of 1:48m; Jeremes Jet had his best year at age 2 with earnings that year of $1,176,542 and a time of 1:50.4s, then lowered his time to 1:48.1m at 3 and to 1:47m in a time trial at age 4. (Apparently, JJ's earnings at age 3 would have been higher had he not been sick most of that year.)

If appearance counts for anything, the Jeremes Jet colts and fillies certainly look the part. It won't be long until we find out whether the first crop can live up to the lofty expectations.

[mango]

Hi Newschool
Which line do you like Artsplace/Western Hanover or any other line, which has done the best job in the u.s over the last 10yrs and which one do you think will leave a bigger mark on the industry?

[Jimmy]

I have seen a couple of JJ foals, and there is a lot to like about then, will be very interesting to see how the go on the track and what type of money they bring at the sales.

[nat]

For what it is worth and from what I can gist from the situation and other forums and what I have heard is that when it comes to Western Hanover you either get a good one or nothing,whether that be a race horse or stallion don't hang me on that as with breeding I hope that what we southern hemisphere people can learn from this forum

[mango]

Jeremes Jets sold well in the U.S, i've just recieved an e-mail from a gentlemen over there and he said it was a big suprise they sold so well. He said the talk was he was a great 2yr old but very disapointing as a 3 and 4yr old. So it will be interesting to see how they go and sell over here, the ones i have seen have been outstanding types so maybe that was the big selling point.

[mango]

Hi Newschool
I was just reading over your post again and yes you can take all those things into calculation but i would also look at the family close up, i think by far Western Ideal has the stronger family overall and if you were to take Jeremes Jet and Ohyouprettything out there is nothing of any importance in the first 4 dams. Just an interesting note for some people Western Ideals half sister is Best Of Memories who is the dam of Mr Feelgood who will be racing next wk in the Miracle Mile.

[Joe Fitz]

A great deal of Canadian money was spent at Harrisburg, particularly from Ontario, where Jereme's Jet stands. As a result, Ontario based stallions did better than actual performance would dictate they should. On the other hand, with all the upheaval in New Jersey, stallions like Rocknroll Hanover and Muscles Yankee had lower averages and top end sales than one might expect. Geography played a major role in this year's results. Studs like Credit Winner and Donato Hanover were privileged over some others, not only because of performance, in the case of CW, and expectations, with DH, but because of where they reside.

[mango]

Joe
Thanks for your insight and a different way of looking at things, are certain states over there struggling and why are they is it due to some states having slots/racino's to support tracks or are there other reasons that should be taken into account. I see the Meadowlands is in trouble from an Aussie's point of view i look at the Meadowlands as the Mecca of the sport.

[newschool]

Hi Newschool
I was just reading over your post again and yes you can take all those things into calculation but i would also look at the family close up, i think by far Western Ideal has the stronger family overall and if you were to take Jeremes Jet and Ohyouprettything out there is nothing of any importance in the first 4 dams. Just an interesting note for some people Western Ideals half sister is Best Of Memories who is the dam of Mr Feelgood who will be racing next wk in the Miracle Mile.

I agree with your assessment of the depth of quality in Western Ideal's pedigree. I guess that's a choice each of us need to make: the certainty of the proven production from Western Ideal vs. the upside potential offered by Jeremes Jet.

I have one colt from each of these stallions and they are both very nice, however at present I am more excited by the Jeremes Jet yearling now in this early stage of his training.

[mango]

Hi Newschool
When they say Jeremes earnings would of been far greater at 3 if he had not been sick, what was his sickness or was that used as an excuse to cover him for breeding due to the lack of money he won that year. I do hope he goes great at stud and i had him on my radar but decided to play it safe this year and went to a proven sire in Art Major instead. I wish you all the best with your 2 yearlings and keep us up dated to how there comming along.

[newschool]

Hi Newschool
Which line do you like Artsplace/Western Hanover or any other line, which has done the best job in the u.s over the last 10yrs and which one do you think will leave a bigger mark on the industry?


Much the same as the last decade, the Western Hanover line should continue to excel producing racehorses and the Artsplace line producing broodmares. It will be interesting to see if RNR Hanover females also become strong broodmares and if there will be horsepower from the Artsplace line to follow Art Major in producing stong racehorses.

[newschool]

I got that information from a well-connected horseman who had nothing to gain or lose by making the comment. He is kind of my mentor as I am very new at this, so I believe he was helping by giving me info to help in my decision making. He wasn't specific, but from his comments I believe it was a virus or similar problem and not a physical problem. Of interest, the buyer of the top seller for $120k on the (I believe) 3rd day at Harrisburg was the regular driver for Jeremes Jet during his racing career.

The people at Tara Hills stud which handles quite a few stallions including Jeremes Jet and Mach Three didn't see the lack of 3-year old racing success a problem. In 2008 they bred more of their mares to him than any of their other sires - and they were very handsomely rewarded for that commitment.

[mango]

Hi Newschool
I've watched his dvd a couple of times and he was an easy going horse and probably the first horse i've seen on a dvd not to wear a pole, i went back through the Black Book and then to the farms who had J-J yearlings and watched the downloads of the yearlings running around they all looked very strong with good size but the thing i noticed the most was how wide they were in front. It will be interesting to see how they sell at the sales over here in Feb i will keep you posted on how they go.

[jammsb]

I don't know this Thomas Johnson. But I am rather shocked by what he says about Western Hanover and his line. Does he not realize that WH is THE ALL TIME LEADING MONEY PRODUCING SIRE!! He has sired the winners of more money than any stallion in the history of any breed. Furthermore, he didn't start out on top. He started at an extremely modest stud fee of $4,000. In his first few books, there were very few if any, quality mares. Actually in retrospect, the only mare of any quality in his first book was Rich N Elegant, before she was "Rich N Elegant". At the time she was a maiden mare who finished her racing career racing in modest claiming events. I wonder how many great horses Mr Johnson has bred and owned.

[Joe Fitz]

I don't know this Thomas Johnson. But I am rather shocked by what he says about Western Hanover and his line. Does he not realize that WH is THE ALL TIME LEADING MONEY PRODUCING SIRE!! He has sired the winners of more money than any stallion in the history of any breed. Furthermore, he didn't start out on top. He started at an extremely modest stud fee of $4,000. In his first few books, there were very few if any, quality mares. Actually in retrospect, the only mare of any quality in his first book was Rich N Elegant, before she was "Rich N Elegant". At the time she was a maiden mare who finished her racing career racing in modest claiming events. I wonder how many great horses Mr Johnson has bred and owned.

Artsplace was certainly privileged over Western Hanover by those in the business of breeding horses, and the latter deserves much admiration for overcoming his comparatively modest opportunities and becoming the great stallion he turned into.

[mango]

Hi Joe
I was just wondering where Artsplace and Western Hanover stood there first seasons at stud, as i do understand a stud farm with great mare's can make a stallion. And did they stand at the same farm through out there stud time.

[jammsb]

Artsplace stood at Southwind Farms where he was managed by Brittany Stallion Management. Western Hanover stood at and was managed by Hanover Shoe Farms.

[newschool]

Hi Newschool
I've watched his dvd a couple of times and he was an easy going horse and probably the first horse i've seen on a dvd not to wear a pole, i went back through the Black Book and then to the farms who had J-J yearlings and watched the downloads of the yearlings running around they all looked very strong with good size but the thing i noticed the most was how wide they were in front. It will be interesting to see how they sell at the sales over here in Feb i will keep you posted on how they go.

The first time I saw the Jeremes Jets was 2 weanling pens at Tara Hills stud, and the first observation was how uniformly he had "stamped" his offspring, and this view held when I saw them again as yearlings. My second observation was that the fillies looked better than the colts, a view that was shared by others I spoke with. By the time the sales rolled around this fall, the fillies looked very good, but the colts had passed them and looked outstanding. As I said in in a previous posting: "if appearance counts for anything, the Jeremes Jet colts and fillies look the part".

The feedback I have had on my Jeremes Jet yearling now in training has been: he is a machine, he is easy on himself, he is a big stong colt that is light on his feet,etc......I haven't talked with anyone else with one in training, so I would be curious if others are having the same kind of experience with their yearlings in training.

[mango]

Hi Joe
You say Artsplace was privileged with better mare's than Western Hanover, Hanover Shoe farms had Western Hanover didn't they support him with there broodmare band or has the broodmare band only picked up over the last 15yrs. Because when going through the mare's they currently own there is some quality there or were the good mare's going to another Hanover Shoe farm stallion at that time.

[jammsb]

At the time, most people, probably including the folks at Hanover and certainly the folks at Brittany who owned most of Western would not in their wildest dreams have envisioned the great sire that he was destined to become. Artsplace was considered the super horse. Western Hanover was considered a steady warrior at best. I recall one of the so called experts of the business disdainfully referring to him as "Little Ralph" in mockingly comparing him to Ralph Hanover who became an abject failure in the breeding shed. He stood for a fee of $4,000. At best, his first three or four books consisted of "mom and pop" mares with a dearth of superstars. Artsplace, on the other hand was blessed with a collection of many of the great mares of the era.

[mango]

Hi Jammsb
Thanks i would not of guessed that i was of the thought that they both got great mares, so in hindsight Western Hanover has done a super job to get where he has.

[BenScadden]

Obviously I'm biased ... but our Jeremes Jet yearling colt is one of the best-looking horses we've bred. He has great depth, an attractive head and is a beautiful, smooth mover. That doesn't mean he'll be able to run but I reckon it's a pretty good starting point. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make some kind of racehorse.
Mango, there was a good article in Hoof Beats a month or two back on Artsplace and Western Hanover and their impact on standardbred breeding.
I was lucky enough to see Artsplace race - and he really was the horse of a generation. Amazingly tough, great speed and great gait - something he has passed on to many of his progeny.
Western Hanover had great top-end speed and was a great horse in his own right ... but, in my opinion, there have been few better pacers than Artsplace. I think people forget just how good he was. Haven't said that, I believe any criticism of Western Hanover is totally unfounded. Maybe some of his progeny have been a touch too 'fragile' and 'hot' ... but it seems Western Ideal, who I also was lucky enough to see race, has added that bit of stoutness and positive attitude, quite possibly through his dam's sire, Abercrombie. And iit looks like those traits have been passed on to Rocknroll Hanover and some other of his sons.
It's going to be an interesting few years to see how these new kids on the block shape up.

[mango]

Hey Ben
Mare went good last night, and which Melbourne sale did you enter your colt in. Just wondering why Western Ideal did not race as a 3yr old.

[BenScadden]

Hi Mango,
yes, happy to see Sapphire Lil back on track. Our colt is in the Premium Sale in Melbourne.
Not too sure about Western Ideal ... I saw him in his last race at the Red Mile as a four-year-old ... went about 1:48. Big, powerful type of horse.

[mango]

Hi Ben
I've got one in the premium sale as well so i'll see you there. If anyone out there knows the reason why Western Ideal never raced as a 3yr old i'd love to know.

Just read the Artsplace v's Western Hanover in october's issue of Hoof Beats and found that the reason Western Ideal didn't race as a 3yr old is due to severing his tendon at the Red Mile.

[jsday]

By my count, there have been at least 29 sons and 12 grandsons of Western Hanover that have been active breeding stallions. Two of his sons, Western Ideal and The Panderosa, have in total at least 12 sons that are also active stallions. In my opinion, Jeremes Jet is probably an upgrade on Western Ideal

That Opinion of years isnt a good one for 4yrs min

[jsday]

Jeremes jet was really only good at 2. He won the breeders crown on 3 legs.....his 3 yr old year excuse after excuse. His 4 yr old yr nothing...

[jsday]

Obviously I'm biased ... but our Jeremes Jet yearling colt is one of the best-looking horses we've bred. He has great depth, an attractive head and is a beautiful, smooth mover. That doesn't mean he'll be able to run but I reckon it's a pretty good starting point. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't make some kind of racehorse.
Mango, there was a good article in Hoof Beats a month or two back on Artsplace and Western Hanover and their impact on standardbred breeding.
I was lucky enough to see Artsplace race - and he really was the horse of a generation. Amazingly tough, great speed and great gait - something he has passed on to many of his progeny.
Western Hanover had great top-end speed and was a great horse in his own right ... but, in my opinion, there have been few better pacers than Artsplace. I think people forget just how good he was. Haven't said that, I believe any criticism of Western Hanover is totally unfounded. Maybe some of his progeny have been a touch too 'fragile' and 'hot' ... but it seems Western Ideal, who I also was lucky enough to see race, has added that bit of stoutness and positive attitude, quite possibly through his dam's sire, Abercrombie. And iit looks like those traits have been passed on to Rocknroll Hanover and some other of his sons.
It's going to be an interesting few years to see how these new kids on the block shape up.
The Greatest Pacer of All Time within the last 25 yrs the great artsplace.....They say the jump from 3 yr olds to free for allers at 4 for a horse is the toughest.......Well how about 16 for 16....

[justdoit]

Jeremys Jet is still being advertised, at this time of the season is it the stallions that are perhaps lacking mares that
are still being advertised? just a thought.
Who would be breeding after Xmas, old mares, people who do not care when the foal is born,
breeding to sell no way.

[nat]

Possible breeder breeding on northern hemisphere times, but I know in my own situation when you have missed a few year with no result you will try your hardest to get a mare in foal even look at other stallions, a year without a foal and your 3 years behind miss 2 or 3 years your 4 and 5 years behind

[justdoit]

Hi Nat,
Change your Vet before you change your stallion:)

[nat]

Nothing to do with the vet, was trying to get in foal to very commercial stallion with a no result I gave up and had a no result for the year a bit of the mare and stallions fault I feel, some times just wonder how much they water the semen down to make the quoters and how that affects conception rates with difficult mares.

[newschool]

Not sure why Jeremes Jet wouldn't be popular on your side of the world. He was definitely sought after in our fall sales over here. Canadians were the strongest buyers, but many were purchased by Americans (presumably to race in the Ontario Sires Stakes). Paul Macdonell drove him during his racing career and obviously liked him well enough to spend $120k on day 3 at Harrisburg.

I have a Jeremes Jet colt in training which my trainer really likes - and we have heard of similar feedback from other owners.

It won't be long now until we get to see his first 2-year olds start racing in about 6 months. By next breeding season you will have more information on which to form your decisions and decide how good he might be.

[Thomas Johnson]

I don't know this Thomas Johnson. But I am rather shocked by what he says about Western Hanover and his line. Does he not realize that WH is THE ALL TIME LEADING MONEY PRODUCING SIRE!! He has sired the winners of more money than any stallion in the history of any breed. Furthermore, he didn't start out on top. He started at an extremely modest stud fee of $4,000. In his first few books, there were very few if any, quality mares. Actually in retrospect, the only mare of any quality in his first book was Rich N Elegant, before she was "Rich N Elegant". At the time she was a maiden mare who finished her racing career racing in modest claiming events. I wonder how many great horses Mr Johnson has bred and owned.

I never said that Western Hanover is not a great producing sire. I am fully aware of his unreal ability to produce racehorses. What I said was that I am not a fan of Western Hanover and that I was trying to say that "I do not know if he will make it as a sire of sires" to date he has got a lot to prove as a sirer of sires and I that the only chance that I can see him doing that is with Western Ideal and now maybe Jeremes Jet. I too like the fact that Jereme mother is by a Abercrombie lined stallion in Sportsmaster and that may give him an edge that the whole Western Hanover line needs to be a real sire of sires. Good luck to all breeders that have bred a Jereme Jets. Having an opinion is what this forum is about as every person is entitled to there own view.

[justdoit]

The sons of Western Hanover have for the most part been dissapointing in AU & NZ with Barnett Hanover, Righteous Hanover, Red River Hanover, all flops. Badlands Hanover has been the best of them, I think all sires are compared to Artsplace and his sons. In NA Western Ideal , Western Terror to some extent are successful and The Panderosa looked to
be good early in his career but has fadded... would that be correct of the NA view on these stallions?

Hi Newschool, what is the breeding of the mare that your JJet is out of ?

[Thomas Johnson]

It has been the same here in the US justdoit as I said there is still a good chance with Western Ideal (out of a Abercrombie mare out of a Meadow Skipper mare) Jeremes Jet (out of a Sportsmaster mare out of a Race Time mare) and then there are the two recent additions to the stallion ranks that I forgot to mention Well Said (out of a Artsplace mare out of a Matt Scooter mare) and If I Can Dream (a full brother to Western Terror, out of a Artsplace mare out of a On The Road Again mare).

Thats it folks if they do not make the grade big time it maybe one of the grandsons of Western Hanover that will take the breed to another level. That is a big maybe in my thoughts for what it is worth. Just my opinion thats all.

Here is a list of all the other sons of Western Hanover that are at stud and producing winners but not setting the world on fire.

The Panderosa
Red River Hanover
Mantacular
Allamerican Ingot
Rambaram
Rustler Hanover
Badlands Hanover
Totally Western
Richess Hanover
Union Guy
Kilowatt
Barnett Hanover

There are no other sons of Western Hanover that have earn't more than $300,000 in stakes that are at stud to my knowledge.

[newschool]

The sons of Western Hanover have for the most part been dissapointing in AU & NZ with Barnett Hanover, Righteous Hanover, Red River Hanover, all flops. Badlands Hanover has been the best of them, I think all sires are compared to Artsplace and his sons. In NA Western Ideal , Western Terror to some extent are successful and The Panderosa looked to
be good early in his career but has fadded... would that be correct of the NA view on these stallions?

Hi Newschool, what is the breeding of the mare that your JJet is out of ?


Justdoit, in response to your question about the dam of my Jeremes Jet colt:
First of all, the mare is a full sister to a mare that made over $550k lifetime. These sisters are linebred to Bret Hanover - their sire is by a son of Storm Damage and dam by a son of Strike Out. The dam of their sire is Albatross-Tar Heel- Good Time; and their dam's dam is Most Happy Fella-Gene Abbe-(Volomite line sire).

[jammsb]

Before I go any further, I need to say that the more assets a potential sire has, the better he will be liked and perceived. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will make him a great stallion. Its great if he has a wonderful and substantial pedigree. However there have been far more stallions who were good horses with great pedigrees who were dismal failures than those who were successful. I absolutely believe that great sires are great sires just because they have the genetic makeup(whatever that might be) to become great sires. Western Ideal isn't a great sire because he is out of Leah Almahurst. If that were the case then why isn't his full brother Western Hero who was a failure? Nor will Jeremes Jet be good or bad because he is out of Ohyouprettything. Great sires are great sires, just because they are.
In the history of our breed there have been several horses who were unfashionably bred that succeeded beyond expectations. Just as there have been numerous extremely well bred horses who were given all sorts of opportunities and failed. The most prominent example(but not the only one) of a horse with nondescript credentials who appears in the pedigree of every pacer in North America and the vast majority of pacers throughout the world is Hal Dale. Hal Dale was a small horse with anything but a notable pedigree. HeHe didn't breaki his maiden until he was a six year old and earned less than a thousand dollars in his racing career. Yet, he is arguably the most influential pacing stallion in the history of the breed.
Obviously when choosing I stallion I would prefer one with all the credentials including but not limited to pedigree, performance, conformation and courage. But does that guarantee success? Absolutely not. Like a great horseman once told me when it comes to choosing top stallions "Many are called, but few are chosen".

[justdoit]

Great sires are great sires, just because they are. NO
I disagree, they all have something in common its just that it has not
been found yet.

[jammsb]

The one thing MOST of them have in common is ability is ability on the racetrack. Even there, two notable exceptions come to mind are Hal Dale and Vance Hanover. Jusdoit, I challenge you - Give me a rule and I'll show you one or more exceptions to it.

[justdoit]

Hi jammsb, I was refering to their genetic make up/DNA.
Ok the challenge.
Rule Number One- Black men run faster than white men over 100 metres.

[jammsb]

Huh? What does that have to do with the predictability of furue Standardbred sires?

[jammsb]

Huh? What, pray tell does that have to do with the predictability of future success by Standardbred sires?

[justdoit]

Rule number one-
The answer is in the answer and its not just because.

[jammsb]

I don't understand riddles.

[BenScadden]

I reckon there are some general 'guidelines' when it comes to stallion success ... but, yes, there are unquestionably exceptions.

The full-relation example is an ideal case in point. Brothers with identical genetic makeup do not have identical siring ability.

It would be a whole lot easier if there were some very solid parameters that resulted in breeding success. It'd also be a lot more boring.

I like the unpreditability of the game - and the constant pursuit of breeing a top horse based on your own judgement, knowledge and experience.

We have bred some pretty good horses over the years - and some pretty average ones, too. And the best horse we bred was the least fashionable one, too.

It's a funny game - and I believe anyone who reckons they have a formula for success will inevitably be disappointed more often than not.

[justdoit]

Full brothers don't count, they are not a clone of one another.
If limited books were introduced an easier comparison between sires could be made.
The mare you are breeding is more important than the sire. What do you think Ben.

[triplev123]

I agree Ben. Pretty much the only rule is that the rules are actually generalisations and that they have numerous exceptions.
If it were all about bits of paper and computer screens showing this cross or that cross as being irrefutable predictors of racetrack success, those with the most cash would own all the good racehorses and broodmares and a small syndicate from Truro, NS would never have ended up with arguably the greatest colt to have ever set foot on a racetrack.
A well known & very successful breeder here in Oz once told me that over the years he'd considered and at one time or another had put into practice pretty much every breeding theory that there was going. He went on to say he experienced his greatest breeding successes in relatively recent times by forgetting about all the theories & instead focussing solely on type. That is the only approach I have ever come across that makes any sense to me as it deals with the tangible...the phenotype, the visual appearance of the indivividuals involved, the sire & dam. Identical bloodlines are not the same as identical genes btw, save of course the profile of identical twins. Full brothers Most Happy Fella & Good Humour Man, Nero and The Shrimp Man/Jun Jun Ni or more recently, Camluck & Lucky Cam, Artsplace & Chill Factor etc. etc are examples. Reading back through all the old stud books it's actually quite shocking to see how many full brothers or full brothers in blood to various well known/well performed sires were imported to AUS & NZ in the bad old days. Dreadful stuff.

[Neil]

fascinating reading guys

I'm going to dig out some of those old magazines because I remember the Good Humour Man advertisements.

I've got a poor mans Mach Three :)

[justdoit]

Gold wood stud?? something like that, they purchased Chill fatctor for $30,000. Canadian and the horse bred 300 mares.
Even if the exchange rate was 60-70cents they still made heaps in just the first season.
Was told the guy is in jail. ...... what was his name?

[BenScadden]

I agree that type of an individual is becoming more and more important as the bloodlines are becoming more refined.
A lot of yearlings on offer today that are now considered 'just OK' would have been standouts in a catalogue 10-15 years ago.
The quality has risen dramatically.
When buying a yearling, the weight I put on type is significantly greater than it was when I started off buying yearlings. That doesn't mean it'll work but I find there are more and more horses with pedigrees I'd consider 'acceptable'.
The truth is I don't have the answers - not even close. I just trust my instincts and some experience (not that I have a huge amount) when it comes to the selection process. Sometimes it has worked well, other times not so well.
And when I've managed to snare a yearling that has developed into a good horse, I reckon I've been blessed with a very healthy dose of luck, too.
There are certain aspects of a pedigree that I find important ... but a lot of the time it just comes down to some commonsense and not being swept up in the latest 'fad'.
I know I've written somewhere before how I've been amazed to see some fairly experienced people spend big bucks on a yearling based purely on pedigree, though a quick inspection of that horse would suggest its conformation is going to be a major hindrance in its chances of making a good racehorse.
How many times do you see a close relation to a horse that's racing really well at the time of a sale sell for top dollar? And if the sale had been a month earlier, that yearling quite probably would have brought half the price.
Anyway, I'm far from an expert ... but I think it's great we all have opinions and are happy to voice them.
I love sales time every year - and the chance to compare my assessment of a horse with someone else. It's an exciting time for me.

[justdoit]

Scary at times to see someone bidding on a horse that I would not have and I get a laugh when it turns out
a handy race horse, Never stop learning from the sales.

[triplev123]

The timing is PERFECT. I absolutely LOVE getting all the Sales Catalogues over the X-mas /New Year period at a time when I can actually sit for a few hours and read through them. Really enjoy going to the sales. Good fun catching up with people you don't get a chance to see very much.
As to how and why people buy what they do, I gave up trying to work it out years ago because it will drive you nuts. I've seen blokes with more money than the US Mint spend rafts of cash for no result, I've seen seriously dedicated people put in months & months of research & yearling inspection only to come up empty handed...and I've seen people buy top performers from 60 feet away whilst standing in the bar at Newmarket, never previously having set eyes on nor gotten any closer than that to their purchase.
We pretty much only sell now but as a buyer I've been guilty of it in the past. TWICE in fact and both times it cost me dearly.
1st time in Sydney I went along to buy a filly. Same deal, liked what I saw, thought I had it in the bag. Bidding was not sparkling and then it kinda stalled, money was pretty solid but not huge. I stopped thinking that I was getting tickled and that we'd negotiate later, a bloke by the surname of Richards (if I remember correctly?) held the bid and they knocked her down. He went home with Newbold Penny. I realised she had been sold so I bought one to heal my wounds and against all my self imposed rules I went home with a colt!!!, Riotous Assembly. Penny went on to win 14 from 21 and 175k. Norm won 3 races including a $500 stake at Mt.Gambier, 3 years later banking a total of 5.5k, I think $500 less than I paid for him. I managed to maintain my composure on the basis that I could only improve. :-P
2nd time was 7 or 8 years later and it proved I had not learnt anything from my experience earlier that decade.
I went off to Bathurst to buy just the one filly. Got the heads up and all. Spoon fed. The previous owner of her dam is a friend of mine and he told me the filly on her was pretty special. He was right. She was exactly what I expected her to be and even a bit better. The bidding was kinda slow and I was convinced the Vendor was pushing me along. He wasn't. Thinking I was super smart & he'd get stuck with her and come to me afterwards I stopped bidding. A small advance that was much worked for by the auctioneers saw her sell & Bathurst local Tony Higgs took Hannah McKenzie home. To my horror, having realised that I missed out...I brainlessly snapped off on something else and went home with a filly that couldn't beat time with a stick. Hopeless she was. Never raced, we never even bothered to name her. Woudln't have gone 2:10 if you dropped her down a mine shaft whilst attached to an Anvil. On the other hand Tony and Hannah won 150k or thereabouts. Ouch.

[BenScadden]

Yeah, I've watched plenty of superstars go through the ring and pass them by.
That's what I love about it so much ... the uncertainty of it all.
I'll be at the sales in Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney plus both islands of NZ again this year. Can't wait.

[triplev123]

I figure by the time I'm 80 or 90 I'll have it all worked out. :-P

[justdoit]

80 or 90 years old, you will still have time.
There will be no more spending money on slow horses and time to load up on fast-hot chics,cars, motor bikes and boats, drink more(water) and most importantly tell people what you really think.

[triplev123]

Ah yes. These days those things are already but a distant & somewhat blurred memory justdoit. All that I've got left to yearn for are successive drafts of very fast horses, extended periods of totally uninterrupted sleep and, upon waking up and walking into the kitchen, to be greeted by the pleasant sounds emanating from my own commercial espresso machine. Henceforth I could go to meet my maker, a life lived fulfilled. :-P

[justdoit]

Yes, the coffee and the kids make life good.

[Don Corleone]

I once went to the sales with all my homework done and sorted 3 out after seeing them at their respective farms etc. Soon as I got to the sales the first morning I saw a colt being led by its handler and it looked outstanding. Upon checking it in the catalogue I saw it was a Cam's Trickster colt out of a unraced trotting mare. However, the more I looked at it the more it ticked all my boxes. I ended up buying him for NZ$1,250. He won his first 2 starts for me before I sold him to Aust where he won 14 from 16 starts including a group race, before going to NA and winning several more.
Since then I only buy on type and three times out of the last 10 years I haven't brought anything because nothing fell into "my" criterion. I have been lucky, winning with everyone and then selling them where they have all gone on to do better things by far better trainers than me. As I said, I have been lucky but have loved the journey - still do. Bring on the sales!!

[justdoit]

Good one Don, what was the horses name?
A bit of both in my selection process, and stay away from alcohol.

[peacheymagic]

Interested to know how people narrow down their selections for sales? Do people go through the catalogue and mark horses whose pedigree they like and then go look at these horses or do it the other way round and go to yearling parades and look at the phenotypes of individuals before evaluating their pedigree? Im guessing it would be easier to find "types" they like first. By the way this forum is very insightful and interesting!

[justdoit]

Would have to think that the majority of buyers, as I do have looked through the catalogue before going to the sale , then look at the horses they have selected and any others that catch their eye on the day.

[justdoit]

I admit to being a bad judge of yearlings.
Good judge of people though(&$"·$%·$%!" wish I could change this for just a couple of days a year.

[mango]

For me the catalogue is first that way i can narrow the yearlings down on pedigree as i dont want to be looking at every yearling on sale day. But i will also take a look at whats parading around and if its a nice type i will look in the book and if it's not one marked i might take a closer inspection.

[jammsb]

Mango, your major error is waiting until sale day to look at the yearlings being offered. In my opinion, the very worst time and place to evaluate a yearling is at a sale on sale day. The yearling is in a new and strange environment. The astute yearling buyer does his homework before the sale by going to the various farms and inspecting them in their home environment. By doing this, not only does he narrow down his choices and avoid last minute, unresearched decisions, but he utilizes sale day to reinforce his previously researched opinions.

[Don Corleone]

For what its worth I go through the catalogue and firstly delete the ones I can't get (too pricey etc) then check out the ones that come in my price range. However, never forget the ones you may think are too pricey may fall into your range on sale day so always keep them in mind. Then I call the preparer or vendor and set up a time to look at the yearling. Preferably in a paddock where it is being a horse. Throw out the window the breeding side of things here and just look at the horse as a individual. Then its a matter of picking the ones you like on type. I then put a price on it and stick to it (sometimes!) On sale day there will always be one or two that you 'find' so keep them in mind too. Then get in the ring and bid your heart out. It's great stuff. Highlight of my year.

[peacheymagic]

I really like that approach jammsb, personally I believe by sale day all the research should be completed and a max price for particular yearlings written down etc. I would love to be able to go through a whole catalogue but I find a sale such as the sale of the stars with in excess of 300 yearlings too time consuming, so try to narrow it down by crossing off the progeny of certain sires I wouldn't breed too.

[Flashing Red]

Eliminate 3/4 of them on pedigree alone, then eliminate any from sires I don't like, then eliminate them from mares that haven't produced much or recently. You aren't left with too many to see on sale day then :)

Tis a very exciting time of year :)

[Don Corleone]

Tomorrow I am heading to see my first Jereme's Jet colt. Looking forward to it and will post my opinion.

[mango]

Hi Jammsb
I don't think it is a major error by not going to the farm to inspect yearlings, by going through the catalogue and doing my research on the computer i can narrow it down to what i'm looking for and that could leave me half a dozen to look at sale day. If i was to pick out half a dozen and drive all over the country side to inspect them i might have to take a week of work. If you inspect them at the sale's you see them walk, stand and it is good to see how they behave outside there enviroment. And for unresearched decisions if i get to the sale and the 6 i've picked out by studying the catalogue and studying updates on the computer don't tick the box i don't buy and go home. I always have someone else with me for a second opinion so why drive over the country side when you can make a decision in 20 mins sale day.

[jammsb]

That's fine with me if its fine with you. Through life's journey, I've found that the people I've known who work the hardest have generally been the most successful. Probably just a coincidence.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

I realise there's not always the time available to us but nevertheless I think Jammsb is right on the money there.
The most repeatedly successful buyers I've seen have often initially looked over their quarry (sometimes as early as foals, but more often) as weanlings & they'll go back again a couple of times to observe any changes and then again once or twice more as the yearlings are being prepped for sale...all the time seeing them in their 'home' or at the very least in a non-sale environment. Then, come Sale Day they effectively just check on them and make sure they haven't injured themselves and that no dramatic changes have occurred. I realise that sort of approach might not be possible for many people however it is what it is and it most definitely works. There are two things that as an Industry I believe we do not pay near enough attention to here in the Southern Hemisphere. One is of course the above...taking the time out for an extensive yearling inspection/selection process. The other is shoeing, but that's for another day and another thread. The practical reasons why you'd do so aside for a moment...my wife thinks I'm nuts but I couldn't think of anything more interesting and more pleasurable than driving around looking at yearlings heading salewards. No doubt you'd see plenty of Turkeys but the Swans would more than make up for it.

[mango]

Hi Triplev123
I love going out to the studs and looking at the horses, i go out and see my mare's and foals as much as possible and you are probably right you should go look at them but i don't see it as a major error it might make it a little harder thats all. Mark Purdon recently raced a M3 colt he purchased at the premium yearling sale last year and it won first up in 1.58.1 and i doubt he would of looked at that yearling untill the day before the sale. And it's lucky i'm not married otherwise i could be in the nut's department aswell, i read over the sale books night after night and i'm booked in for an ankle op tommorrow and the sale books will be comming with me.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,
Beautiful things those mares and foals. I could sit out in the paddock all day watching the newbies running about As luck would have it I've just returned from an arvo's handling of the most recent foal. A bit of initial push and shove with the mare but in the end she was fine with it and so was the foal. Really happy with the foal, it's a ripper.
That M3 colt M.Purdon picked up in Melbourne....MP is good, he's very,very good but nobody is that good. I'm pretty certain he didn't see it until sale day but I believe he had someone on this side of the Tasman doing the initial leg work for him. Alas, I must leave you now. Mrs Triple is away overseas on business, the kids are exhausted and headed off to bed after a long and hectic day (I ran their legs off) & I have rung my trusty local Pizza guy who will knock upon my door and regale me with his product in short order. I have Foxtel & the APG Sales Catalogue for company. Life is good. :-) Good evening my dear.

[Flashing Red]

(Apparently, JJ's earnings at age 3 would have been higher had he not been sick most of that year.)

People will say anything for an excuse, especially for a stallion. And if it was the case, why would you breed to a stallion with a weak immune system?

While outstanding at 2, that isn't questionable, the fact of the matter is his race record shows he wasn't the same horse at 3 and 4. IMHO, it is very risky to breed to a horse that was his best at 2. Say he throws 2yos - if they have a paddock accident, whatever, something happens, you have missed the boat and will not be one of the top colts the next season. Its bad enough with sires knowing for ONLY siring 2 and 3yos. But to only sire 2yos? (which may be the case here) Not for me... I will take a wait and see approach :)

[Flashing Red]

Much the same as the last decade, the Western Hanover line should continue to excel producing racehorses and the Artsplace line producing broodmares. It will be interesting to see if RNR Hanover females also become strong broodmares and if there will be horsepower from the Artsplace line to follow Art Major in producing stong racehorses.

And thus the golden cross: Western Hanover (or sons) to Artsplace broodmares. The Meadow Skipper line with the Abercrombie. Most famous cross in standardbreds.

[Flashing Red]

There is no magic formula for breeding or picking out champions, but I do believe you can help your chances with pedigree, conformation, family, sire etc. I believe you would be more successful than picking one out of a hat. I honestly don't believe it is completely random, I think there are things one can do to improve their chances... does anyone else agree?

[triplev123]

G'day Flashing,

I used to think that way but no longer.
Sires that produced the complete opposite to that which their race careers indicated changed my views entirely.

Here's part of an article (part for the sake of size & relevance I clipped off some bits on TB breeders & the TB Breeders Cup politics of the time)

Written in The Bloodhorse Magazine from back in Feb. 2005, it is compelling reading.


John Gaines: In His Own Words


By Dan Liebman (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/author/dan-liebman)
Posted: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:04AM


After taking over a highly successful Standardbred operation begun by his grandfather in 1925, and moving it to even greater heights, John Ryan Gaines established a Thoroughbred division of Gainesway Farm in 1962. He wasted little time in becoming one of the industry's most important and forward-thinking figures. Gainesway Farm became a true "stallion station," with Gaines never owning more than 15 broodmares, but instead concentrating on the stallion end of the business. He acquired, syndicated, stood, and managed such well-known stallions as Lyphard, Riverman, Blushing Groom, Vaguely Noble, Bold Bidder, and Broad Brush.


Gaines became a leading consignor at major Thoroughbred auctions and adviser and partner to some of the sport's leading owners and breeders. Though owner of a relatively small broodmare band, he has owned the dams of champions and twice had mares he owned-Cosmah and Glowing Tribute-named Kentucky Broodmare of the Year.
In 1989, Gaines sold his Gainesway Farm to Graham Beck, but just a few years later, missing the business he loved so much, re-entered the game, though on a totally different level. Gaines now operates John R. Gaines Thoroughbreds and owns more than 100 mares. His son and daughter are partners in the operation, which is managed by Olin Gentry. While most young horses are sold as yearlings, John R. Gaines Thoroughbreds has been selling its foals as weanlings.
It was Gaines who had the idea which became the Breeders' Cup, and he was a founder of the National Thoroughbred Association, from which spawned the National Thoroughbred Racing Association (NTRA). He also was instrumental in the founding of the Kentucky Horse Park and Maxwell H. Gluck Center for Equine Research at the University of Kentucky. Gaines has been bestowed nearly every honor and award in the Thoroughbred industry, including a Special Eclipse Award, Thoroughbred Club Honor Guest, and the lone recipient of the Breeders' Cup Special Award.
Gaines, 70, was provided questions in advance of a Sept. 17, 1999 interview with Dan Liebman, executive editor of The Blood-Horse. He supplied written responses to those questions, then was asked additional questions during the interview.


The Blood-Horse: Is the breed as sound today as it was 30 years ago?
John Gaines: Conventional wisdom will tell you that the breed is not as sound today as it was 30 years ago, 50 years ago, and 75 years ago. Conventional wisdom is almost never right. A study from 1969-1999 reveals a surprisingly marginal increase of only 3% in the number of horses starting in races over a 30-year period. The more horses competing on the racetrack would appear to translate into more unsoundness in the breed as a whole;; however, this does not appear to be the case.
It is the condition of racing that determines the soundness of the breed. There is no such thing as an index of soundness and there is no agreed upon definition of what soundness means. The tracks are not much different and the methods of training are not much different compared to 30 years ago, although I think veterinary science is much more sophisticated than it was 30 years ago. Since the Thoroughbred does not reach his full physical maturity until 4 1/2 years of age, soundness is always going to be a major problem. The unreasonable physical demands that are placed upon young, immature, undeveloped horses are going to cause all kinds of breakdowns, injuries, physical trauma, and mental problems.
Conventional wisdom will tell you horses stay sounder if they run on the turf instead of the dirt. Although it is almost automatically assumed horses stay sounder in Europe than they do in America, I wonder if this is really true. When the Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing company developed artificial surfaces for both trotters and runners, the change in surface only created new unsoundness problems in different loci of the horses' anatomy. The question of soundness is primarily an immaturity and condition of racing issue rather than a genetical and inheritance issue. The overemphasis on the perform-ance of the 2- and 3-year-olds in a Darwinian sense purifies the breed, because only the fittest animals can survive the conditions of racing.


Are commercial breeders forced into standing stallions oriented to speed and precocity over stamina and soundness, whether they want to or not?
No one is forced to stand any stallions they do not want to stand. Speed, precocity, stamina, and soundness are convenient buzzwords, but they are not mutually exclusive concepts. A horse can have soundness and precocity as well as speed and stamina. The conditions of racing determine the shape of the breed.




Should this (breeding for precocity) be a source of serious concern to the industry?
Absolutely not. If for some bizarre reason the breed stopped producing these supreme examples of the Thoroughbred-the very best of hundreds of thousands of foals-that would be a serious concern.


Can and should anything be done about it?
Yes. Just keep breeding the best to the best and hope for the best.


So, that theory worked in the past and should work in the future?
Well, people try to make it so complicated, and it is complicated in the dynamics of how animals inherit. That is incredibly complicated. But, the principles are incredibly simple. And, it's all a question of getting as many probabilities on your side as you can. And, environmental probabilities are just as important as genetical probabilities. I once asked Bull Hancock the question, "If your fairy godmother came out of the sky and said, 'Bull, I'll grant you one of three wishes. Would you rather have Bull Lea, the 20 best mares at Calumet, or Ben Jones?' Which would you take?" He said, "That would be easy; I'll take Bull Lea." And, he said, "What would you take?" I said I would take Ben Jones. Because there are just a few transcendent trainers. And, they are so important, breeders only want to think in terms of genetics, but the transcendent trainer like Ben Jones, Hirsch Jacobs, Woody Stephens, and now (Bob) Baffert, Wayne Lukas, are worth as much as a great stallion or a great broodmare.


Does the commercial market and its characteristics (corrective surgeries and shoeing techniques, use of treadmills, steroids) have too much influence on the breed?
Corrective surgeries, shoeing techniques, and treadmills are a positive influence; steroids given for the wrong reasons are a negative influence. Taking the breed as a whole, these procedures are almost meaningless. Steroids administered to highly important racehorses and future sire prospects have been known to compromise fertility, particularly in the first year at stud.


You brought stallions from Europe to stand here. Why are so few breeders today importing new bloodlines?
Home is where the heart is. The breeders and owners of the great European stallion prospects prefer to keep their horses at home. Their breeding rights are worth as much in Europe as they are in North America. When I imported Vaguely Noble, Blushing Groom, Riverman, Sharpen Up, Irish River, and Lyphard, this was not the case. The market was here. At that time, when a prominent European racehorse or stallion was imported to Kentucky, he immediately doubled in value. This arbitrage no longer exists. With the exception of Japan, any breeder has access to almost any stallion standing anywhere in the world, if he wants to ship his mare and pay the stud fee.


Is the gene pool getting too narrow with Northern Dancer and Raise a Native (Mr. Prospector) line stallions?
Taking the Thoroughbred breed as a whole, the coefficient of inbreeding is at a very low percentage compared to that of other breeds of animals. The coefficient of inbreeding in Standardbreds is only marginally higher and is still considered to be a low percentage of the breed as a whole. There is no such thing as having too narrow a gene pool. Stallions only provide 50% of the genes to any individual animal and the broodmare, of course, provides the other 50%. Geneticists call this Galton's Law and it is one of the fundamental, indeed immutable principles of how animals inherit. Any permutation of Galton's Law is without merit and is errant romantic nonsense.


Why is the syndication of stallions less popular now than 20 years ago?
This is an economic decision. The stronger the economy, the less adverse stallion owners are to the risk of failure.
For the short term, the stallion owners can maximize the revenues, for long-term, if the stallion is a failure or mediocre, then the revenue stream will be compromised. It is somewhat like tiptoeing on the high wire without a safety net.


What will be the long-term effect on the breed of large stallion books?
Biologically a normal stallion can easily handle books of 100 mares or more. The way to manage a stallion is to manage the mares booked to him. Breeding techniques for mares have reached a high level of sophistication. Since there are more than 600,000 Thoroughbred horses in North America alone, large stallion books will have no effect on the breed as a whole. In the Standardbred industry, artificial insemination is allowed which greatly favors the proven progenitors who are frequently bred to 250 mares or more. This discriminates against the young, unproven stallions because they are not getting the best producing broodmares and their books are small by comparison. Looking at the top 1% of the breed, a large book of mares probably enhances the gene pool, but only marginally.


You mention artificial insemination in Standardbreds. Of course, you were formerly involved with Standardbreds. Do you think artificial insemination would work in Thoroughbreds?
First, it would be an economic disaster. Secondly, from a standpoint of hygiene, it would be a definite plus. But, it would destroy the entire economic paradigm of the industry. That is one reason I got out of the Standardbreds, because the art of breeding horses and the fun of breeding horses were being lost.


If you were getting into the stallion business today, what attributes would you look for in a stallion prospect? How would that strategy be different from 20-30 years ago?
The attributes a responsible stallion manager is looking for are the same today as yesterday. All of the criteria are probably weighted differently by different stallion managers, however the categories are the same: racing class, pedigree, soundness, conformation, temperament, precocity, stamina, speed, way of going, and durability pretty much cover the waterfront. In absence of the progeny test, all of these criteria become irrelevant.


How has the shuttle stallion trend influenced the business?
Biologically, it is a good thing for stallions to be bred year-round. It is closer to nature as opposed to an arbitrary, artificially imposed breeding season. The idea that a horse only has so many covers in his genetic bank is scientifically absurd. This concept is one of the many tongue-in-cheek myths originating from the diabolically fertile mind of Federico Tesio, one of the greatest horsemen of all time (he was greatly amused by the gullibility of his fellow breeders and the more outlandish Tesio could make things, the happier he was). The breeder of Nearco and Ribot was interested in creating a persona that would make him more mysterious and profound.
Under competent management, the health risk has proven to be minimal. I think it will be fascinating to see how all of this shuttle business will work out from a performance point of view. It is pretty predictable-the best stallions here will be the best stallions down there. The biggest problem with the shuttle stallions is the quality of mares being bred to these horses is vastly inferior to their Northern Hemisphere books. Over time, the shuttle stallions should improve the breed in Australia, New Zealand, and South America.
It is essentially an economic decision. Obviously the older and more proven the stallion, the less incentive there is for the Southern Hemisphere shuttle. After the horse becomes a certain age, the health factor of moving the horse back and forth becomes a significant problem.


As a student of genetics, how did you apply that to your breeding philosophy in the Thoroughbred business?
As a young man growing up, I had the unequaled opportunity of being associated for many years with Lao J. Brosemer, who worked for my father. Without question, Brosemer knew more about every breed of domesticated animal than anyone else in the world. At one time he was head geneticist for the U.S. Department of Agriculture and was unsurpassed in the entire field of animal husbandry. My father, and his father before him, had a profound understanding of horses and both were great teachers. From a more theoretical standpoint, I worked closely with professor of genetics Dr. Dewey Steele of the University of Kentucky and the highly intelligent and longtime editor of The Blood-Horse magazine, Joseph A. Estes.
Estes was the devastating critic and debunker of breeding myths. He was the most scientific journalist that ever wrote about the breeding of Thoroughbreds. I was taught when all was said and done the progeny test was the only thing that mattered. That is why my program is to acquire older proven mares after the fact rather than unproven young mares, despite their credentials before the fact. In lieu of the progeny test, the most important thing is racing class in both the sire and the dam.
I also learned from these influential mentors and from my own lived experience that scientific truth is not always economic truth. There is only a handful of people in racing that have an elementary understanding of genetics, how animals inherit, and scientific probabilities. The mythology surrounding the breeding of Thoroughbreds is pervasive. A few of these myths are the astonishing stupidity of the dosage system, the absurd overemphasis on the female family, and the irrational belief in the validity of nicks.


When you say overemphasis on the female family, do you mean the first dam or the whole female family?
The way we present our pedigrees is genetically irresponsible. The third dam in the female family is genetically no more important than any other horse in the third generation of that family. But that has become economic truth, though it is not genetic truth. I never look beyond the sire and the dam, because that is where the genetic material is coming from. The big issue is, that while there are all of these statistics, these pedigree nerds, the people that are promulgating all of this scientific nonsense, there is never any control group. It is all selective, self-serving, worked-over information. I did a study one time with Dewey Steele about nicks, and we found the worst horses, those finishing last at Thistledown and Charles Town, had the same nicks as the horses that were winning the classics. One of the dumbest things that's done is that they take an infinitesimal sample of maybe three or four or five horses and pompously say that is a nick. From my scientific point of view, a sample that is that minuscule is worthless.
Millions and millions of dollars are spent every year (on horses), yet a high school freshman that is taking an elementary genetics course has a better understanding than someone who is spending a hundred million dollars a year and is listening to all these charlatans who are promoting genetical lies.


Do you think geneticists will ever be able to identify the genetic markers that constitute a faster horse, or conversely the genes or markers that identify negative traits?
The universe of scientific research and accomplishment ebbs and flows, and does not fit into the time and space of conventions that we are so fond of using to categorize our thoughts. I think it is fair to say the first 75 years of the last century, science was overwhelmingly preoccupied with the mathematics of time and space and the origins and operations of the universe. In the last 25 years of the century science has provided the preliminary research and indeed the launching pad for the exciting keystone technologies of computing and biotechnology. As more of the arcane secrets of genetics and molecular biology are revealed to the modern public, we will be able to have insights into the common mutations of our own genetic makeup. We will be able to spell out the precise sequences of the billions of letters in the equine genetic code. In fact, the new genetics will go far beyond the usual gene sequence analysis. As we crawl further up the value chain to include the chemical side and pharmacological and toxicology data, we can then search for continuous sequences that might lead to a full-length gene. The possible discoveries, compelling though they may be, do not necessarily mean we will in effect see a change. There is little question we will make quantum jumps in theory, but it does not mean we will be able to apply this theory in practical concrete terms. As we all know, the horse is not the most congenial of host animals.


What are the most important factors to breeding success?
Everything in breeding and racing is a matter of understanding the probabilities and getting the probabilities working for you instead of against you. In genetics it is the progeny test and in the environment it is the transcendent trainer.

END

[Don Corleone]

Hey triplev123,
Interesting article and I enjoyed reading it. Thank you.
Yesterday I saw my first JJ and I must say I was very impressed. Lovely size and put together well and definatelty looks like a runner. I would tell you the lot number but I wont as you all might outbid me !!!!

[triplev123]

Only if I manage to knock over an Armoured Car between now and then Don. :D
I'm looking to sell, not buy. Glad you found one you really like. They're very nice types. Looking forward to seeing our foals next year already.

[Flashing Red]

"The big issue is, that while there are all of these statistics, these pedigree nerds, the people that are promulgating all of this scientific nonsense, there is never any control grouip."

I am one of these statistic nerds (proudly), and each to their own, this is one person's (albeit a very respected) person's opinion. And the control group? Whether regarded so or not, I look at the averages of a sire and then, whatever the statistic is that js being looked at, whether it has performed above or below the average.

It's funny, I kinda thought that breed the best to the best and hope for the best "theory" had been debunked. Otherwise the million (or billion, hehehe!) aires would have a monopoly on breeding all the champion horses (and you know what? They don't!!).

But it really was an interesting article, thankyou. Estes I have a lot of time for, as although we go about things in a different way I love his no-nonsense "proof wanting" outlook :)

[triplev123]

G'day Flashing,

You know, that's my all-time favourite horse person interview. He comes across as a bit of an irascible old turnout huh?
John R. Gaines passed away at, for these days, the relatively young age of 76, in fact I think it was not long after that interview was published.
You might have read it a bit the wrong way there Flashing. The reason I say that is because I took it that way too initially but having since read some other things he had to say over the years I don't think that is what he meant. What you do and so many of us do is one thing but what he was getting at there I think was quite another.
I think he was taking a shot at those people you will encounter from time to time who will look at bits of paper or pedigrees represented on a PC screen, will see this bloodline or that bloodline or this X or that X represented thereupon in the sire & the dam & then by way of referencing one or two good horses similarly bred will unequivocally state that it will work or conversely by referencing one or two poor horses similarly bred...that it will not, never having laid eyes on any of the individuals involved etc etc etc.
Along those lines his assessment of the mischievous motives behind some of the ideas Federico Tesio publicly espoused was pretty funny too I thought.

[Flashing Red]

Perhaps I did misunderstand, but I haven't read much of his work.

Hehehe I was a very sad little child at school, while everyone else was catching up on the goss or playing on the oval I was creating pedigrees for what I thought would be the perfect thoroughbred. lol. Always been facinated with pedigrees :) Obviously over time I began to appreciate type and other aspects too. In fact, just love everything about it. Helped with a mare who was having her folicle checked today, I just get so excited to be there from that stage to taking them to the races at 2!!

[jammsb]

Some of the greatest breeders in the history of horse racing subscribed to the "breed the best to the best and hope for the best theory". Among them were the aforementioned John R Gaines, his father Clarence F Gaines, Lawrence Sheppard, the founder of Hanover Shoe Farms, Harness Racing's all time leading breeder and Edward P Taylor the founder of Windfields Farm and the breeder and owner of among others Northern Dancer. Most of the "pedigree nerds" haven't accomplished a whole lot themselves, but excel at telling others what to do. I guess the bottom line is the old maxim "those who can do, those who can't teach".

[triplev123]

G'day Flashing,

Fear not, for I think I can beat you for sad.
Would you believe that I took the Stud Books and some other Harness Racing reading material with me on our Honeymoon, much to Mrs Triple's eternal disgust. Whenever I happen to fall from grace in her eyes, amongst my many and varied indiscretions over the years I am reminded of that particular one. :(:(:(:(:(

[jammsb]

You can add the leading breeder and greatest horseman of the twenty first century Jean Pierre DuBois to that list of breeders who do not operate from any proscribed theories. They simply breed the best to the best with an important side serving of intuition to what they do.

[mango]

Hi Triplev123
I thought i had problems by taking my sale books to hospital on friday but you get me hands down on taking them on your honeymoon, Mrs Tripple must be one champion and understanding lady otherwise it would of been a short marriage.

[Flashing Red]

Most of the "pedigree nerds" haven't accomplished a whole lot themselves, but excel at telling others what to do. I guess the bottom line is the old maxim "those who can do, those who can't teach".

No discredit to those (very accomplished) people you have mentioned, but anyone can breed two great horses together and get a great horse. IMHHHHHHHHO, the best breeders can breed or pick out great horses from would otherwise be a less than stellar background. I've been very fortunate in my life to be mentored by such people :) I'm obviously a tadpole in a very big pond, but I am learning so much and love all forms of pedigree theories, I'm trying not to be closed-minded and limit myself to "best of the best". Not everyone has those sort of funds to embark on a program like that! :)

Focusing on a pedigree has not been as prominant in North America as Australasia, however I think you will find that more thought in being put into it now in North America than would have been given by those great breeders of the past.

[Flashing Red]

G'day Flashing,

Fear not, for I think I can beat you for sad.
Would you believe that I took the Stud Books and some other Harness Racing reading material with me on our Honeymoon, much to Mrs Triple's eternal disgust. Whenever I happen to fall from grace in her eyes, amongst my many and varied indiscretions over the years I am reminded of that particular one. :(:(:(:(:(

LMFAO, had me in stitches! Yes, you win in the sadness factor. lol.
And I must admit that I too bring up things from the past in arguments. Must be a woman thing. lol.

[triplev123]

I think the best individual Standardbred Breeder of the modern era would be Bill Shehan.
This piece is a bit dated with the horses it mentions, many more have been added since, but the foundation mares/familes that Shehan bred have been a massive influence on the Standardbred breed.

WILLIAM R. SHEHAN - (1929-1991)
William Shehan, a native of Ann Arbor, Mich., was born October 1, 1929.
He was a graduate of the University of Michigan, and for almost 20 years maintained a corporate law practice in New York City, and specialised in international finance.
While in college, Shehan rubbed horses for fellow Immortal Sanders Russell. A quick learner, Shehan developed his own ideas on the kind of gait it took to go fast and he tried to develop that gait within his own band of broodmares.
He was first listed as a breeder by the United States Trotting Association in 1955, and bred Fleeting Star. Adora, Golden Miss, K Nora, and Lover’s Walk, all very important foundation mares in Shehan’s band.
Initially breeding and selling yearlings under this own name, in 1977 Shehan developed Clermont Farm, a 560 acre Standardbred nursery in the Bluegrass State.
Bill Shehan bred expressly for the traits of good gait and physical type. His object was to breed away from any faults. He was also successful in bringing to life several branches of maternal families who have produced top performers -- generation after generation.
Adora was the dam of Adora’s Dream and K Nora. K Nora is the grandam of Three Diamonds, the dam of Life Sign. K Nora is also the dam of Angel Hair, who is the dam of Naughty But Nice and the grandam of Leah Almahurst, the dam of Western Ideal. The family of Golden Miss lists Real Desire, Grinfromeartoear Royalflush Hanover, all winners of over $1 million, and Rustler Hanover, a winner of $971,638.
Lovester was the result of breeding Lover’s Walk to Speedster. This Grand Circuit stakeswinning filly is the dam of Rosemary, voted the 3-Year-Old Filly Trotter of 1978, and who is the grandam of Royal Prestige. Shehan’s skills also link him to Self Possessed, Continentalvictory, and Act of Grace.
In total, Sheehan was the breeder of 300 Standardbreds, including the Little Brown Jug winner Strike Out, the Yonkers Trot victor Tamerlane, the world champion Lightning Strikes, the multiple stakeswinner Cavalcade, and Shifting Scene, Diamond Exchange, Hilarion, Justin Passing, and Short Stop.
The formation of the Kentucky Standardbred Sales Company in 1980 was the brainchild of Shehan, Tom Crouch of Kentuckiana Farms, and several other yearling consignors.
This Standardbred sales company produces one of the highest sale averages in North America, and boasts of having sold the highest priced yearling ever offered at public auction, Experience Victory, who sold for $650,000 in 1999.
Experience Victory’s grandam, Katie Almahurst, was owned as a yearling by Shehan.
Many of the fillies bred and sold by Shehan went on to exceptional broodmare careers at major farms, and their offspring continued to produce superior yearlings each year for the major sales.
Shehan passed away in 1991, having left his mark on the Standardbred industry as one of the great modern-day breeders.

[mango]

Any new's on how the Jereme's Jet's are comming along.

[jammsb]

For the record, as great a breeder as Bill Shehan was, he did not breed Adora, K Nora, Lover's Walk or Golden Miss. He was the breeder of Fleeting Star. He did recognize the potential of all of those mares which he utilized after buying them and inserting them in his broodmare band. There are many reasons to not believe what you read. The above are only some of them.

[triplev123]

Of course...however the piece above doesn't claim that Sheehan bred those mares.
It says [He was first listed as a breeder by the United States Trotting Association in 1955, and bred Fleeting Star. Adora, Golden Miss, K Nora, and Lover’s Walk, all very important foundation mares in Shehan’s band.]

Note the full stop between 'Fleeting Star' and 'Adora'.

[jammsb]

It most certainly does say or at least imply that. If it doesn't, what is the verb in that sentence?

[triplev123]

I think it was just a bit sloppy in the writing, a typo. The words 'were also' would have made the world of difference..as in [He was first listed as a breeder by the United States Trotting Association in 1955, and bred Fleeting Star. Adora, Golden Miss, K Nora, and Lover’s Walk were also very important foundation mares in Shehan’s band.

[trotpace]

I don't know this Thomas Johnson. But I am rather shocked by what he says about Western Hanover and his line. Does he not realize that WH is THE ALL TIME LEADING MONEY PRODUCING SIRE!! He has sired the winners of more money than any stallion in the history of any breed. Furthermore, he didn't start out on top. He started at an extremely modest stud fee of $4,000. In his first few books, there were very few if any, quality mares. Actually in retrospect, the only mare of any quality in his first book was Rich N Elegant, before she was "Rich N Elegant". At the time she was a maiden mare who finished her racing career racing in modest claiming events. I wonder how many great horses Mr Johnson has bred and owned.

I agree and find his statements amusing.

[mango]

Is Western Hanover still the leading sire of all time or has Camluck passed him and if not it's only time untill he does.

[trotpace]

January 08, 2010 [/URL]
The late Western Hanover, who stood his entire career at stud at Hanover Shoe Farms in Pennsylvania, is now the all time money-producing sire of all equine breeds, having eclipsed Abercrombie thanks to the earnings of progeny which raced in 2009. Abercrombie had led the list for more than the last decade. Western Hanover is now the sire of the winners of $156,543,228.

[URL]http://www.harnessracing.com/news/westernhanovernowalltimemoney-producingsire.html (http://www.harnessracing.com/send_to_friend.php?id=13736&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harnessracing.com%2Fnews%2Fwe sternhanovernowalltimemoney-producingsire.html)

[trotpace]

Right off the Seelster Farm site,

Camluck moves into #2

http://www.seelsterfarms.com/Camluck-Moves-Into-No2.pdf

[mango]

Hi Trotpace

Thanks for the info, it's only a matter of time before Camluck takes over.

[triplev123]

G'day fellas,
Interestingly, looking at it all purely from a Southern Hemisphere perspective, neither of those sires has left a son that has been able to make a real impact down here.
Easily the best siring effort recorded by a son of Western Hanover to stand stud down here has been Badlands Hanover & I think it's fair to say that overall he has done a tradesman-like job only and that he did so most notably with initially subtantial Nevele R client/broodmare support so how much of all that was him and how much of it was as a result of the quality and number of mares he covered in his initial seasons is wide open to conjecture.
As far as sons of Camluck are concerned, they've been an across-the-board washout and on both sides of the Pacific to boot. For the sheer number of foals that he has produced over the years it is quite surprising to me that he has thus far proven incapable of extending his line in any meaningful way.