Penrith's off...again.

[triplev123]

Pound for pound THE worst wet weather track in NSW.
Someone spilling a beer is a chance to put a meeting in jeopardy.
It's high time they got with the HRNSW proposal, sold up & moved lock, stock and barrel to a new track at Eastern Creek...one that, amongst other things, drains better.

[triplev123]

+ the last 4 at Newcastle. How about a few tracks that drain fellas???????????? They'd still have raced at Menangle.

[smithy]

why can't they move the meeting to menangle? must have known the meeting was off this morning with the amount of rain about

[Greg Hando]

Pound for pound THE worst wet weather track in NSW.
Someone spilling a beer is a chance to put a meeting in jeopardy.
It's high time they got with the HRNSW proposal, sold up & moved lock, stock and barrel to a new track at Eastern Creek...one that, amongst other things, drains better.
No it's not the Parkes track is worseinch of rain on sat and they cant trial sunday

[triplev123]

Fair dinkum? That's a shocker. Some of these tracks shed water like a bath with a plug in it.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Without intimate knowledge, are HRNSW injecting any of thier new found wealth into grass roots tracks and infastructure throughout NSW? Or is it just going to Menangle?

[smithy]

http://harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16397

[triplev123]

Nah, they're spreading it around as far as I'm aware Smithy. I'll have to ask a few people to get some more nitty gritty info but I believe they're going to build new tracks in Wagga and Tamworth and the intention is to move the track at Bathurst to another spot & make it 1000m. Penrith is also on the radar to combine with Bankstown & Fairfield & all move to Eastern Creek with a 1000m track. I believe that Don Clough is strongly in favour of such a change taking place. :p

[mango]

Hey Triple

I read somewhere that Penrith have rejected that offer to move to Eastern Creek.

[aussiebreno]

+ the last 4 at Newcastle. How about a few tracks that drain fellas???????????? They'd still have raced at Menangle.
Menangle is newer (is that a word) and improved.

[aussiebreno]

Nah, they're spreading it around as far as I'm aware Smithy. I'll have to ask a few people to get some more nitty gritty info but I believe they're going to build new tracks in Wagga and Tamworth and the intention is to move the track at Bathurst to another spot & make it 1000m. Penrith is also on the radar to combine with Bankstown & Fairfield & all move to Eastern Creek with a 1000m track. I believe that Don Clough is strongly in favour of such a change taking place. :p

Going to take a big crane!

[smithy]

i didnt think they could move penrtih, i understood they are the only track in nsw to actually make money through the club they have there

[mango]

And that smithy is the main reason for not moving, i like big tracks and seeing time run but i also think there is a place for 800m tracks and whilst Penrith has a strong club that is finacial they should stay where they are. Maybe they should look at what they can do to fix the Penrith track especially the turns.

[aussiebreno]

i didnt think they could move penrtih, i understood they are the only track in nsw to actually make money through the club they have there

I believe at lease Newcastle and Ballarat also do.

[smithy]

And that smithy is the main reason for not moving, i like big tracks and seeing time run but i also think there is a place for 800m tracks and whilst Penrith has a strong club that is finacial they should stay where they are. Maybe they should look at what they can do to fix the Penrith track especially the turns.

i'd like to see it at least 900m like moonee valley... but short of that a re cambering of the track wouldnt go astray plus new stabling etc

[mango]

Yeah i'd agree with that, do they have room to turn it into a 900m track.

[triplev123]

And that smithy is the main reason for not moving, i like big tracks and seeing time run but i also think there is a place for 800m tracks and whilst Penrith has a strong club that is finacial they should stay where they are. Maybe they should look at what they can do to fix the Penrith track especially the turns.

G'day Mango,

The reason for the proposed combining of the 3 clubs (Penrith, Bankstown & Fairfield) and a subsequent move to a single 1000m facility at Eastern Creek is that the respective site constraints are such that each of the tracks are unable to be meaningfully extended and nor can their respective turns be fixed. On the subject of Penrith making money, a cursory reading of the most recent annual report and with particular attention to Poker Machine revenue, that which augments the prizemoney there, might lead some to reconsider that view. Panthers is just over the road don't forget and they're having a fair impact. There more Pokies over there than there are Pine Trees in the State Forests around Meadow Flat on the way out to Bathurst.

[mango]

Panther's has been over the road for a long time and have alway's had a shit load of poker machine's, Paul Fitzpatrick who as we all know is a leading trainer has stated he would like to see Penrith remain as there is still a place for 800m tracks. Didn't one of John Tapps horses struggle the last 2 time's at Menangle and has to requalify again on the track if it is to race there, but he is suited and has know problem's racing at Penrith. If Penrith don't relocate as a guess Harness Racing n.s.w won't have the money to open a track at Eastern Creek i think they were banking on the sale of the Penrith track as the land would be worth some serious $$$$$, correct me if i'm wrong on this last bit as it was a msg relayed down the line.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

Read their most recent annual report and then compare it to editions from the previous years especially where $ earned from the Pokies is concerned. You will note a dramatic decline in that revenue stream.
So then...you think it's better for things to remain at Penrith and to leave all that money tied up in the value of the land there instead of selling it off ala HP, moving them as well as both Bankstown & Fairfield, to new premises at Eastern Creek, freeing up the $$$ for investment and injecting into the available prizemoney at the new venue both the interest earned on the principle plus the savings made on the economies of scale which will result?
The Steaks Sandwiches are good...but they're not that good.

On this very subject, in a private e-mail from back in early May when all this was originally raised and Penrith immediately rejected it, a friend of mine said as follows...

I note the Media report and accept it for what it is.

It doesn’t surprise me at all – Getting Sydney clubs to work together is almost impossible – none can see the forest for the trees.

Sydney only needs two tracks – If the provincial clubs could get together and put aside parochial issues then you could end up with a really viable operation – Add the greyhounds there (similar parochial issues) and you would have a venue probably working 4-5 times per week – lower fixed costs and increased usage adds up to better prizemoney and a vibrant operation – probably won’t happen in my time however, that is unless the HRNSW board (who control dates) put pressure on the Sydney provincial clubs (and that has not happened to date).

[triplev123]

I meant to add that personally, I have only one problem with the piece in blue...I think the last thing on Earth we need is to have a venue tied up with the Greyhounds...they've made absolute knobs of themselves in QLD for as long as anyone can remember and as far as NSW Harness Racing getting tied up with them is concerned...they can go to Hell in a Hand Cart for mine...however, the rest of it is right on the money, IMO.

[mango]

Hey Triple

So i take it each of the clubs Penrith, Bankstown and fairfield own the land which the tracks are situated on and if they do that would be some serious coin. The cost of land and setting up at Eatern Creek wouldn't be cheap.

[smithy]

blow up all the tracks in sydney and make them race at menangle

why do we need to look after the weak, high gatespeed horses (same goes for not having a sprintlane)? would advance our breed 100x racing at menangle, no place to hide in that long straight

[mango]

I think you have to accomodate all classes of horses, at the present time the better class of horses are racing at Menangle and the less class of horses are placed where there best suited so i don't see how it would advance our breed anymore all you would have is a B class horse up against an A+ horse and we know the result.

[smithy]

mango, the way i see it, would a mares progeny be more valuable if its mother won 5 races at harold park leading or had won 5 at menangle leading and every horse having a decent shot at beating it?

maybe not everyone looks into the mares performance as i do... a bit of an olds wives tale but that is why i believe the kiwis have usually dominated the classic races, there horses are exposed to tough racing either through big fields, long races or racing older horses..or a combination of them... maybe thats not 100% the breeding but it has to have some positive result

[mango]

Hi Smithy

I see where your comming from but not everyone breeds to sell, so whether they win 10 at Menengle or 10 at Redcliffe it doesn't matter to a majority of people. I don't know the percentage but as a guess i'd say 60% of people breed to race as i said i don't know the percentage and correct me if i'm wrong.

[mango]

Smithy

I was just thinking a bit more about your post and yes people will think a mare's progeny is more valuable winning 5 at Menangle in say 1:55 but i see know difference between that and a mare winning 5 at Bathurst in 2min's. Yes it does all depend where the horse was in running but then you have to consider track size and so on.

[mightymo]

Hi Smithy

I see where your comming from but not everyone breeds to sell, so whether they win 10 at Menengle or 10 at Redcliffe it doesn't matter to a majority of people. I don't know the percentage but as a guess i'd say 60% of people breed to race as i said i don't know the percentage and correct me if i'm wrong.

Actually Mango, from the statistics we gathered recently as part of the Breeders Panel, it was found that 90%(yes NINETY%) of people who breed, breed to race the resultant foal!

[mango]

Hi Mightymo

Wow that is a lot more than i thought i was actually going to put down 75% but i didn't want to put my foot in my mouth and either way i was way off. So in saying that i guess those who breed to race would be happy to win 5 race's whether it be at Menangle or Bathurst and to those people it doesn't effect them what time there mare's go as they breed to race.

[David Summers]

Thanks Mo for that statistic. I did not realise either that the percentage would be generally so high. However , I will say that amongst my close breeding acquaintances , that your "breed to race" percentage is pretty accurate.

[nat]

Has there been any move to upgrade the country track in NSW maybe standardize them to 1000m where possible even through in another 1400m I know where smithy is coming from those numbers look good in the sales catalogues. I don't think you can just race at Menangle the reality is once the prize money goes' up most of the horses racing there now will be forced out to the country tracks to make a living and IMO a few of the horses and driver have been caught out try to race Menangle trip on the smaller tracks

Defiantly with you there Mango I would have guessed around 75% its a wonder how so many good horses come out of the sales

[mango]

Has there been any move to upgrade the country track in NSW maybe standardize them to 1000m where possible even through in another 1400m I know where smithy is coming from those numbers look good in the sales catalogues. I don't think you can just race at Menangle the reality is once the prize money goes' up most of the horses racing there now will be forced out to the country tracks to make a living and IMO a few of the horses and driver have been caught out try to race Menangle trip on the smaller tracks

Defiantly with you there Mango I would have guessed around 75% its a wonder how so many good horses come out of the sales

Bathurst, Wagga and Tamworth look like getting 1000m tracks, Newcastle and Goulburn are already 1000m.

[aussiebreno]

Without invading on what should/shouldn't happen to Penrith/Fairfield/Bankstown/Eastern Creek one part of the argument being used is wrong imo. Two users have mentioned that lesser class horses will have less oppurtunites when prizemoney increases/tracks close. My solution and what should be the solution of HRNSW is that Menangle will race more often if that need arises. As somebody said about the Eastern Creek club; racing 4 or 5 days a week has more benefits than just the increased racing.
And VVV I see you mentioned economies of scale. Microeconomics first intoduced me to that term in uni just a few months ago...my exams are over and never again did I want to hear anything about it!

[nat]

You need a good speard of track so you dont have to come to town to make some money 2 or 3 in an area within a 100-200km to make a curcuit you need about 10 - 13 good track dosent matter what size (800m and 1000m would be better) as long its a good track with turns, camber surface and drainage for consistant even racing. Down here in Vic you can say what you want but all the track are good from Mildura to Melton theres not one track I wouldnt race on

[aussiebreno]

Yes but money doesn't grow on trees, NSW has as many tracks as Vic but over the last 10 years while Victoria seemed to be doing a different track upgrade every 6 months a lot of NSW tracks were having trouble stopping the weeds growing on them!

[nat]

To true Aussie just wondering what there major plane is you cannot beat improving your infrastructure whether it you farm of business Its a shame it was let go that way when I was young many moons ago NSW was the cream of racing.

[mango]

Hi Breno

Not all horses are suited to big tracks so if Penrith,Bankstown and Fairfield were to set up at Eastern Creek where would the closest 800m track be for horses from Sydney. As one of the people who mention the lower class horses i look at it this way and how it was explained to me some horses can go 2.02 at Penrith but then go to Menangle and are lucky to run 1:59 where as the winner goes 56 and change so in looking at this that horse will have more of a chance winning at Penrith and hardly a chance winning at Menangle.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Breno

Not all horses are suited to big tracks so if Penrith,Bankstown and Fairfield were to set up at Eastern Creek where would the closest 800m track be for horses from Sydney. As one of the people who mention the lower class horses i look at it this way and how it was explained to me some horses can go 2.02 at Penrith but then go to Menangle and are lucky to run 1:59 where as the winner goes 56 and change so in looking at this that horse will have more of a chance winning at Penrith and hardly a chance winning at Menangle.
If Eastern Creek is 1000m it negates knee knockers and the saucer track effect; to me that is of greater benefit for more horses than the benefit of 800m tracks are for some horses.
Does a horse that goes 1.59 around Menangle really deserve to be winning races anyway? Yeah in the past they may have found the front and ran 64 and 58 around Penrith but that has long been of angst to harness fans.
Plus if these tracks did shut down that would mean there is more racing at Eastern Creek and Menangle; meaning that not every race will go in the 1.56/57 vicinity. There will still be weaker races. And if they still can't compete...Globe Derby it is!

[mango]

Hey Breno

Your also correct in what your saying and we could keep bouncing this back for another month of sunday's in posts so i'll leave it at this, my opinion is that there is still a place for a 800m track in Sydney and i believe that is Penrith.

[Greg Hando]

If Eastern Creek is 1000m it negates knee knockers and the saucer track effect; to me that is of greater benefit for more horses than the benefit of 800m tracks are for some horses.
Does a horse that goes 1.59 around Menangle really deserve to be winning races anyway? Yeah in the past they may have found the front and ran 64 and 58 around Penrith but that has long been of angst to harness fans.
Plus if these tracks did shut down that would mean there is more racing at Eastern Creek and Menangle; meaning that not every race will go in the 1.56/57 vicinity. There will still be weaker races. And if they still can't compete...Globe Derby it is!
Any race a horse wins deserves it regardless of the time run on any track everyone is eligible to compete

[aussiebreno]

Hey Breno

Your also correct in what your saying and we could keep bouncing this back for another month of sunday's in posts so i'll leave it at this, my opinion is that there is still a place for a 800m track in Sydney and i believe that is Penrith.
Yeah exactly, if they can three, even four tracks and still be financially viable then that would be excellent.

[nat]

There has to be given every chance for owners to race those not so good horse that get bred every year to make some money NSW best horse over the past few years Karloo Mick built his rep on being able to go two and three wide trip on the 1000m and 800m tracks and Vertigal nearly unbeatable at Menangal finds it hard anywhere else

[aussiebreno]

There has to be given every chance for owners to race those not so good horse that get bred every year to make some money NSW best horse over the past few years Karloo Mick built his rep on being able to go two and three wide trip on the 1000m and 800m tracks and Vertigal nearly unbeatable at Menangal finds it hard anywhere else
There is no rule saying lesser class horses can't race at Menangle/Eastern Creek. They aren't going to drop the number of races there will still be as many races. If it was one or the other between 800m and 1000m imagine how many more horses would actually get to the races!

[smithy]

Has there been any move to upgrade the country track in NSW maybe standardize them to 1000m where possible even through in another 1400m I know where smithy is coming from those numbers look good in the sales catalogues. I don't think you can just race at Menangle the reality is once the prize money goes' up most of the horses racing there now will be forced out to the country tracks to make a living and IMO a few of the horses and driver have been caught out try to race Menangle trip on the smaller tracks

Defiantly with you there Mango I would have guessed around 75% its a wonder how so many good horses come out of the sales

because its a percentage of owners, not horses... that 10% of owners probably breed 30-40% of foals and spend twice as much on good stallions and good mares

[smithy]

if a horse can't win at menangle then they shouldnt be in the soon to be premier racing in Australasia... what happens when all the good kiwis get here? build a 600m track because horses that used to win on an 800 m track can't win anymore? no - if they cant make it in sydney then they should be in south australia or queensland where they are competitive

[mango]

If they can't win at Menangle that's why you keep a track like Penrith, so what your saying Smithy is that the people who pay big money to buy yearling's or spend money on good mare's and go to good stallion's and them horses don't make the grade send them to S.A or QLD that's very short sighted as a lot of owner's like to go to the track and watch there horses race so are you suggesting they jump on a plane everytime there horse race's in another state lmao.

[triplev123]

Hi Breno

Not all horses are suited to big tracks so if Penrith,Bankstown and Fairfield were to set up at Eastern Creek where would the closest 800m track be for horses from Sydney. As one of the people who mention the lower class horses i look at it this way and how it was explained to me some horses can go 2.02 at Penrith but then go to Menangle and are lucky to run 1:59 where as the winner goes 56 and change so in looking at this that horse will have more of a chance winning at Penrith and hardly a chance winning at Menangle.


G'day Mango,

Not all horses are suited to bigger tracks but at a bare bones level it's not the size of the track that dictates if a given horse can be competitive or not. Instead, it's the class of the horse that they're in against. Glaring examples are starting to arise at Menangle where the $ is the best so the best horses head there to race and the lesser lights get spanked. If you had 10 of those lesser lights on Menangle in the one race then all they do is go slower but one of them still wins and others still finish in the placings. It would be no different if they moved Penrith, Fairfield & Bankstwon to Easter Creek.
In fact, you can produce extremely even racing on a Mile track for a bunch of horses that would struggle to break an R0 if the correct handicapping aspects are in place, not the least of which is tiered/differential/staggered prizemoney.
On half milers as they stand here in Oz, by way of their basic geometry, they do not allow for fairer racing for lesser lights. Instead they serve to excentuate minute differences by way of ever so slight ability edges combined with an advantageous draw and the driver's skillful use of tight turns & short straights.

[triplev123]

If they can't win at Menangle that's why you keep a track like Penrith, so what your saying Smithy is that the people who pay big money to buy yearling's or spend money on good mare's and go to good stallion's and them horses don't make the grade send them to S.A or QLD that's very short sighted as a lot of owner's like to go to the track and watch there horses race so are you suggesting they jump on a plane everytime there horse race's in another state lmao.

That's exactly what should happen. It happens now in a basic way. That's the beauty of the US/CAN system. They all aspire to the big-time tracks and the best prizemoney but if they can't cut it then they drop to the next level and if not there then the next level and they keep dropping back in prizemoney until they reach a level where they're competitive.

[smithy]

yes tripl v but can you see that ever happening here? i know they tried to have it brought in and fitzy blocked it...and now hes the main one behind a sprintlane and supporting small tracks for weak horses...go figure

[smithy]

If they can't win at Menangle that's why you keep a track like Penrith, so what your saying Smithy is that the people who pay big money to buy yearling's or spend money on good mare's and go to good stallion's and them horses don't make the grade send them to S.A or QLD that's very short sighted as a lot of owner's like to go to the track and watch there horses race so are you suggesting they jump on a plane everytime there horse race's in another state lmao.

yes they can go and watch them..but they will have to watch them run last... there is no way sydney should be trying to keep weak horses around, it should be promoting a state of the art track and amazing prizemoney... just remember when they race at those small tracks your only looking after the owners who have drawn 1,2,8 or have amazing gatespeed, the rest of the horses might as well stay at home

[Greg Hando]

if a horse can't win at menangle then they shouldnt be in the soon to be premier racing in Australasia... what happens when all the good kiwis get here? build a 600m track because horses that used to win on an 800 m track can't win anymore? no - if they cant make it in sydney then they should be in south australia or queensland where they are competitive

Smithy i don't know who you are and don't really care but you are way off the mark with this comment their is no rule to say where and who can race a horse at Menangle if you had your way Harness Racing in NSW
would die it is the little battler who keep's the game viable as it is. He doesn't care if they win or lose they just like to see their horse's race and why shouldn't they be able to race at the best track in their own class.
Rules prevent me from saying what i really think about your comment
Regards Greg Hando aka winston i will no longer hide behind a user name i shall sign all my post's from here onas long as i remember why doesn't everyone else then it will promote honesty among everyone.

[smithy]

i never said i would bar the horses, just that races shouldnt be put on for these 'battlers'... if they want to play for the big money then they shoul be prepared to be distanced on the big track rather than hiding on a little one... harness racing has been dieing a slow death in nsw with small tracks and terrible horses in tab timeslots, this is now a good chance to have top line horses racing day in day out

[Greg Hando]

What class of races do they run on Monday and Tuesday's at Menangle battler races for the most part if they were only going to run races for the better class horses you might get a meeting once a week
for these horses at present as i said the battler's keep the sport going and in saying that you also have to place your horse properly where it is most suited to perform

[triplev123]

Hey Triple

So i take it each of the clubs Penrith, Bankstown and fairfield own the land which the tracks are situated on and if they do that would be some serious coin. The cost of land and setting up at Eatern Creek wouldn't be cheap.

Nah, only Penrith. I understand that Fairfield and Bankstown pay rent to the assembled Vultures at their respective local 'Show Societies'.
The land at Eastern Creek is in the bag for nicks if they could all manage to get their heads out of the backsides and see the bigger picture.

[triplev123]

blow up all the tracks in sydney and make them race at menangle

why do we need to look after the weak, high gatespeed horses (same goes for not having a sprintlane)? Would advance our breed 100x racing at menangle, no place to hide in that long straight

testify brother smithy! Amen.

[Greg Hando]

I think Fairfield is owned by the council weren't they going to build a bigger track or put money toward's it about the time Fairfield was being shutdown ?

[Greg Hando]

Nah, only Penrith. I understand that Fairfield and Bankstown pay rent to the assembled Vultures at their respective local 'Show Societies'.
The land at Eastern Creek is in the bag for nicks if they could all manage to get their heads out of the backsides and see the bigger picture.

They can't see the bigger picture with Blockeyes on i think it would be a good move

[triplev123]

Actually Mango, from the statistics we gathered recently as part of the Breeders Panel, it was found that 90%(yes NINETY%) of people who breed, breed to race the resultant foal!

Well & truly beat me to the punch there Mightymo. I thought THAT was THE most interesting statistic which arose from the survey. For years and years various State administrative bodies & Breeders Associations have repeatedly disappeared up their own respective clacks on that score. They saw fit to quite erroneously treat Breeders & Racing Owners as entirely seperate entities...as though somehow it was a case of never the twain shall meet save on Sale day...when all along they (Breeders & Racing Owners) were, for the well & truly overwhelming majority, one & the same.

[triplev123]

And VVV I see you mentioned economies of scale. Microeconomics first intoduced me to that term in uni just a few months ago...my exams are over and never again did I want to hear anything about it!


Sorry Breno,
Of all the mind numbing, brain desiccating crap that I had to listen to in Economics...that was the sole thing that stuck with me, the one grass roots & able to be practically applied notion that managed to cut through all the fog & make absolutely perfect sense.

[triplev123]

yes tripl v but can you see that ever happening here? i know they tried to have it brought in and fitzy blocked it...and now hes the main one behind a sprintlane and supporting small tracks for weak horses...go figure

Couldn't agree more Smithy. IMO there is ABSOLUTELY no need for a passing lane at Menangle. None whatsoever.
This viewpoint will become even more apparent as the grade of horse continues to improve in direct response to the excellent prizemoney available.
When C0's are going around for 10k-12k and 1:52-1:53's are par for the course in those grades you'll not see traffic problems late in the Mile. They are, after all, not a function of the track. They are ALL about the class of horse involved and so the tempo of the racing. Better class horses and so up tempo miles will rarely result in traffic problems inside of the final 1/4, 1/8th, 1/16th. In fact, even now, those who may feel so inclinded only need look at the number of NCR's & NCRVS's that're tagged on each grade for evidence of the above. I don't understand Paul's stance on this one. For mine, small tracks and sprint lanes do exactly what the now defunct NSW Sires Stakes did...they promote mediocrity. Menangle should be about THE BEST OF THE BEST doing battle every week over the wide open spaces of the big track...not pocket sitting speedy skunks that'll suck the blood of horses cutting the mile and then zip up the inside for a 16th to edge them out in shadows of the post.

[triplev123]

I think Fairfield is owned by the council weren't they going to build a bigger track or put money toward's it about the time Fairfield was being shutdown ?

That was a bit of a furphy Greg. There was all sorts of Sabre rattling going on at the time but I know a few fellas who were on and one that is still on the Fairfield Council and it had no hope of ever being funded. In a Shire that has long been so desperately in need of so many other resident facilities their ratepayers would have burned the Chambers down if they'd flicked $$$ to help on the upgrade of a racetrack & they all knew it.

[mango]

Nah, only Penrith. I understand that Fairfield and Bankstown pay rent to the assembled Vultures at their respective local 'Show Societies'.
The land at Eastern Creek is in the bag for nicks if they could all manage to get their heads out of the backsides and see the bigger picture.

Hey Triple

If that is the case and Penrith decided to sell and relocate wouldn't they be better off going it alone as they will be the one's with the money.

[triplev123]

What class of races do they run on Monday and Tuesday's at Menangle battler races for the most part if they were only going to run races for the better class horses you might get a meeting once a week for these horses at present as i said the battler's keep the sport going and in saying that you also have to place your horse properly where it is most suited to perform

Good point Greg. It's all about the handicapping & prizemoney. It's the be all & end all.
Credit where it is due...the programming at Menangle is getting better all the time IMO. The Monday meetings at Menangle have slightly less prizemoney and race conditions written obviously with the lesser performed/lesser lights in mind.
This week there's a 2 x 2C0's, there's a C0 4yo+ mares, a 3C0 PDLTW, 2 x C1-C2-4yo+ winners of no more than $4,000 last 5 and there's a C3-C4 4yo+ winners of no more than $4,000 last 5. Very simply but astutely written conditions.
The Tuesday prizemoney is better than Monday and the conditions are aimed at the next step up, better horses/more in form horses than those of Monday so in some respects they're little more open and the Saturday prizemoney and conditions are of course, the best/the Metro's etc.
This system, though it should be noted that it is by no means perfect, allows horses to basically find their own level of competitiveness and that's why I disagree with Paul's ideas (as they have been explained to me 2nd hand) about Penrith and a passing lane for Menangle. I'll make a point of asking him about them next time I see him. Always better to hear it from 1st hand. There's got to be a bit more to it than is being portrayed at the present time.

[triplev123]

Hey Triple

If that is the case and Penrith decided to sell and relocate wouldn't they be better off going it alone as they will be the one's with the money.

It doesn't quite work that way. I'm only reading the tea leaves here but knowing the way State Governments & Local Councils do business I would say that any existing land holdings only get rezoned and any suitable sites for relocation only become available under some circumstances and not others.

[Greg Hando]

Thanks triple about the furphy wasn't sure as we don't hear much west of Penrith

[triplev123]

Thanks triple about the furphy wasn't sure as we don't hear much west of Penrith

You're welcome.
Not hearing about things just because over the mountains is something that needs to change for starters. The basic disconnect between Harness Racing in the city & the country has been allowed to continue for far too long. Hey Greg, on that score, what do you fellas think of the NSWHRC's Regional Heats culminating in Menangle Finals concept?

[Greg Hando]

I think it is a good idea if you've got the right horse to run at Menangle the only thing is i think if your going to go in a race for a final at Menangle i reckon you should give your horse a run there first to see how it goes before nominating for a heat. The heat and final is a good idea as will help spread a bit more money around in the bush it will help if you don't have a Metropolitan raceable horse to race for some good money other than hoping your horse stacks up to metro class to race for nice money

[smithy]

i think they are very very lucky to have been given those heats personally... menangle/harold park could have gone the usual way and said you suffer and we'll help ourselves... and i think it can only lead to more similar programs to spread some money around

[triplev123]

What I like about it the most is that the Central West, the Riverina, the Hunter Valley & the Southern Highlands/Goulburn have traditionally been Harness Racing strongholds and so by restricting these races to horses trained in those & other country areas they're making sure that nobody is going to be left out.
The other thing is that it doesn't neccessarily require a horse that is a Metro grader...as I believe that these Heat & Final races will be conducted across all grades, C0's & upwards. I believe the Heats will be penalty free and the Final will only attract a 'C' mark. In theory a non-winning 4yo+ could win a C0 Series Heat (8k) & Final (20k) and become a C1 but with $17,250 or thereabouts banked for its time & efforts. That's set to make a huge difference to the pockets of quite a few owners.

[David Summers]

That's set to make a huge difference to the pockets of quite a few owners.

Yay!!! I'm already counting the dollars :-)

[triplev123]

...and I neglected to mention that it will significantly improve the lot of many Country based trainers & drivers.
Incidentally, I think I might have gotten that Penalty Free aspect a bit arse about. I just got a call from a mate and he told me his understanding of it was that the Heats will carry a 'C' Penalty as will the Final...even though the Final is for Metro $ (2.5x the money of the Heats.) Buggered if I can find the original release from Rex. Maybe someone else can confirm?

[aussiebreno]

One thing though...the $20K victory may count as an M penalty across the borders. Upward Ever Upward won about 5 Restricted races at Wagga during the EI period...turned out Victoria made him a C7 or something when he was still a C2 in NSW. Forgot how it all panned out in regards to if Victoria ended up counting them as Restricted.
And I sure wouldn't complain about copping a penalty for the heat win.

[smithy]

absolutely aussiebreno... it will take awhile but owners will lose out, horses that win these races in nsw will have penalties in other states and take big penalties in sale prices, esp. qld which is the strongest market for out handicapped nsw horses

[Greg Hando]

One thing though...the $20K victory may count as an M penalty across the borders. Upward Ever Upward won about 5 Restricted races at Wagga during the EI period...turned out Victoria made him a C7 or something when he was still a C2 in NSW. Forgot how it all panned out in regards to if Victoria ended up counting them as Restricted.
And I sure wouldn't complain about copping a penalty for the heat win.
I think the races at wagga he won were classed as c races as the prizemoney was above $3000 perhap's that is why i think when he raced in VIC after the EI he started as a c6 or 7

[Greg Hando]

absolutely aussiebreno... it will take awhile but owners will lose out, horses that win these races in nsw will have penalties in other states and take big penalties in sale prices, esp. qld which is the strongest market for out handicapped nsw horses

What do you mean by owner's will lose out your racing for just about double a normal race for a heat and $20,000 final if your racing in NSW what does it matter how the other states handicap you i don't understand what you mean

[smithy]

because its 1 race...your not racing for that money every week...so you win the heat and final and get your 15k or whatever it works out, in nsw you are now a c2 but you are on your mark as a c2...owners wants to make a profit and sell...in qld, sa hes a c4 m1, so your copping the penalty there, so the extra money you won becomes evened out by not being able to sell the horse for reasonable money

[Greg Hando]

That is if you breed to race then sell you are winning 2 races not 1 and as you said come out a c2 here this is where claiming races could come in and take over these horses i'm only talking about NSW i'm not worried what other states do

[triplev123]

absolutely aussiebreno... it will take awhile but owners will lose out, horses that win these races in nsw will have penalties in other states and take big penalties in sale prices, esp. qld which is the strongest market for out handicapped nsw horses

It is a National Handicapping System fellas. If a horse leaves NSW graded as a C1 it does not get re-assessed after crossing the QLD or VIC border. A C1 is a C1 is a C1 is a C1. The only way that I can see one of these races might impinge on subsequent racing opportunities would be in the short term via a W$L5 or Winners of less than $X or some such condition...and even then it would be no great issue.

[triplev123]

because its 1 race...your not racing for that money every week...so you win the heat and final and get your 15k or whatever it works out, in nsw you are now a c2 but you are on your mark as a c2...owners wants to make a profit and sell...in qld, sa hes a c4 m1, so your copping the penalty there, so the extra money you won becomes evened out by not being able to sell the horse for reasonable money

Not so Smithy. Individual States are completely free to deem races as Penalty Free whenever they so wish..... and the horses that win them cannot subsequently be subjected to retrospective re-handicapping upon sale Interstate. Smithy, I think you're confusing NZ imports with Australian bred & performed horses that move from 1 State to another.

[triplev123]

One thing though...the $20K victory may count as an M penalty across the borders. Upward Ever Upward won about 5 Restricted races at Wagga during the EI period...turned out Victoria made him a C7 or something when he was still a C2 in NSW. Forgot how it all panned out in regards to if Victoria ended up counting them as Restricted.
And I sure wouldn't complain about copping a penalty for the heat win.

It doesn't Breno. There may well be re-handicapping of NZ/US/CAN imports but as far as Australian bred & performed horses being sold Interstate it does not happen.

[triplev123]

absolutely aussiebreno... it will take awhile but owners will lose out, horses that win these races in nsw will have penalties in other states and take big penalties in sale prices, esp. qld which is the strongest market for out handicapped nsw horses

Hey Smithy,

You're making my head spin here. How in blue blazes does the owner of a C0 that wins an 8k Heat & 20k Final, nets $17,250 and is still only a C2, lose out???????? Seems to me that it's raining Gold and you're complaining about the weather.

[aussiebreno]

It doesn't Breno. There may well be re-handicapping of NZ/US/CAN imports but as far as Australian bred & performed horses being sold Interstate it does not happen.

Yeah but, how did Upward Ever Upward end up being (not exact figures here) a C2 in NSW and then a C7 when crossing the border south? Again, Victoria may have backflipped I don't know but to get that situation in the first place tells me Victoria/Individual states keep their own records.
Also, QLD horses were racing for $10'000 and Perth upped the Metro penalty to $13K or something. There was a mass exodus of horses from QLD to WA because nice M2 horses were suddenly M0s.

[triplev123]

Not familiar with that one Breno. My understanding is that Australian performed horses that cross State boarders are not re-handicapped. Perhaps there are anomalies where they may fall into easier or harder grades by way of 'local rules' ?

[Greg Hando]

Yeah but, how did Upward Ever Upward end up being (not exact figures here) a C2 in NSW and then a C7 when crossing the border south? Again, Victoria may have backflipped I don't know but to get that situation in the first place tells me Victoria/Individual states keep their own records.
Also, QLD horses were racing for $10'000 and Perth upped the Metro penalty to $13K or something. There was a mass exodus of horses from QLD to WA because nice M2 horses were suddenly M0s.
Breno look up the horse on the HRA website and you will see the races he won were c class races here in NSW not all R races he was i think a C6 when he went to VIC

[aussiebreno]

Breno look up the horse on the HRA website and you will see the races he won were c class races here in NSW not all R races he was i think a C6 when he went to VIC
The race conditions were put up with Country fronts and prizemoney was over $3000 but using discretion due to the circumastances of EI HRNSW made them Restricted penalty.
I went and looked it up, he won 4 of these such C front races with >$3000 prizemoney; which would have made him a C4. But; when EI restrictions were loosened he went off and ended up winning his C0 at Young which proves that during the EI period HRNSW made them Restricted penalty.
Thing is; Victoria made him a C4 when in NSW he was adjudged as a C0; and you will find Brett Woodhouse did not take him down to Victoria until such time he was C6+.
http://www.harness.org.au/rules/AUSTHCPR.PDF
Scroll to bottom and read rule 19. It says to me races programmed like the EI races being R only impact on that local state governing body (being HRNSW in this instance) and that HRA (and therefore other states) must comply with the normal rules; therefore the other states must apply a C penalty as that is the normal rule.

[aussiebreno]

Which in the context of these races now, despite HRNSW, the local governing body, counting the $20K finals as Country penalty under the HRA rules it is Metro penalty (going by $20K prizemoney but race conditions may allow such that the race can be C penalty Australia wide I am not too sure) and the other states are bound by these rules. I doubt this will impact much anyway as the NSW horses will race at Menangle for their Metro racing anyway if they reach that level (although a few in the Riverina do sneak down to Melton and with the increasing competitiveness at Menangle due to larger prizemoney this may happen more frequently).

[Greg Hando]

The race conditions were put up with Country fronts and prizemoney was over $3000 but using discretion due to the circumastances of EI HRNSW made them Restricted penalty.
I went and looked it up, he won 4 of these such C front races with >$3000 prizemoney; which would have made him a C4. But; when EI restrictions were loosened he went off and ended up winning his C0 at Young which proves that during the EI period HRNSW made them Restricted penalty.
Thing is; Victoria made him a C4 when in NSW he was adjudged as a C0; and you will find Brett Woodhouse did not take him down to Victoria until such time he was C6+.
http://www.harness.org.au/rules/AUSTHCPR.PDF
Scroll to bottom and read rule 19. It says to me races programmed like the EI races being R only impact on that local state governing body (being HRNSW in this instance) and that HRA (and therefore other states) must comply with the normal rules; therefore the other states must apply a C penalty as that is the normal rule.
Thank's for that only going on what i read on the result's sheet as far as c races we weren't aloud to race up here for 4 - 5 months so didn't know what condition's were placed on these races

[smithy]

aussie is 100% correct about what hes said, i remember it clearly - the connections of horses that won those races were going off when they nominated in victoria only to be told they would be taking a penalty against what they were told by hrnsw

[Greg Hando]

aussie is 100% correct about what hes said, i remember it clearly - the connections of horses that won those races were going off when they nominated in victoria only to be told they would be taking a penalty against what they were told by hrnsw

States not working together for the betterment of the sport to many ego's to feed perhaps

[aussiebreno]

States not working together for the betterment of the sport to many ego's to feed perhaps
Moreso think it was rule 19 from my link; well that is my theory anyway.

[triplev123]

Some interesting news to hand today.
A fella I know who's close to and so well versed in the machinations of the State Government here in NSW was filling me in on the various proposed development areas in & around where I live and we got to talking about Eastern Creek & surrounds. I mentioned to him that there was land available out there where it was recently proposed two or three race clubs might relocate to. To my surprise he was well aware of it all & added the concerning comment that 'they'd better not wait too long to make up their minds, they'll only get one shot at it'. Apparently there are a fair number of ideas lined up for consideration & only so much suitable land to go around. This conversation bothered me greatly because eventually those who currently oppose any sale & move will either fall by the wayside or see the light and change their minds...but chances are that it will be all too late by then.

[aussiebreno]

Some interesting news to hand today.
A fella I know who's close to and so well versed in the machinations of the State Government here in NSW was filling me in on the various proposed development areas in & around where I live and we got to talking about Eastern Creek & surrounds. I mentioned to him that there was land available out there where it was recently proposed two or three race clubs might relocate to. To my surprise he was well aware of it all & added the concerning comment that 'they'd better not wait too long to make up their minds, they'll only get one shot at it'. Apparently there are a fair number of ideas lined up for consideration & only so much suitable land to go around. This conversation bothered me greatly because eventually those who currently oppose any sale & move will either fall by the wayside or see the light and change their minds...but chances are that it will be all too late by then.
Anything that needs to be done in a hurry is concerning

[triplev123]

G'day Breno,

Under normal circumstances I'd concur however, having been daily witness to the way in which the land to the South-West, West and North-West of Sydney has been and is being opened up and eaten up by various developments, I can completely understand where he is coming from. This bloke's information is rock solid & he does not have a dog in the fight, not even a hair on the dog. Wouldn't know one end of a horse from the other & couldn't care less. In fact, he's a God damned bike rider. Has not yet become one of those skin tight lycra panted strokers with the Bolle's, backpacks and water bottles that goes out of their way to interfere daily with the flow of rush hour traffic just because they think it is their right to do so...but he is definitely verging on it.