The ASBP Report: How can they be serious? Bad news for harness owners

[triplev123]

I'll say it once again and I'll KEEP ON SAYING IT until those in the driver's seat tune in and understand.
In 2009/2010 season we produced just under 5,200 live foals here in Australia. Approximately 2,600 of those were fillies who will duly get a shot at 6.6% of the total races carded, all but ensuring that they're either not going to be tried or if they are then they'll be pushing shit up hill to be viable racing propositions.
Until such time as we make BETTER USE OF HALF OF THE FOALS WERE ARE ALREADY PRODUCING instead of trying to breed another 500-1000-1500 more foals than we are at present...and then NEGLECTING 250-500-750 OF THOSE IN THE VERY SAME FASHION AS WE CURRENTLY NEGLECT HALF OF THE FOALS WE PRODUCE...then any efforts to increase foal numbers is seemingly just for the sake of doing so. All we will effectively do is INCREASE THE APPALLING LEVEL OF WASTAGE/LACK OF RACING OPPORTUNITIES that we currently preside over.

As I said before...LET THE FILLIES THAT WE BREED NOW FILL THE FIELDS.
WRITE THE GOD DAMNED RACES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mightymo]

I share similar views Triple v, yet when this was brought up with various state programmers they suggest that on many occasions when they do program fillies/mares only races, they dont receive enough noms. my response was that they should simply program them and race them anyway, and eventually trainers will see them and put their fillies and mares in

[aussiebreno]

Breno - stop complaining and actually add something constructive. you are in charge. What are you going to do to improve the situation....give us something useful
It is constructive. If there was no opposition to this idea it would go ahead plain sailing the sport would be poorer for it.
I've said I have no problem with the other 34.5 pages of the panels report.

I've said breeders have got to want to do it. At the moment the sport is on its market equilbrium. There is no 'problem' with not enough foals. Yes it would be great if there was more; but that means more races and thus prizemoney comes to a halt; even decreases. If there comes a point fields aren't being met then that means there is more oppurtunities to win races and thus breeding will increase. There is no problem with dwindling foal numbers. Increasing foal numbers will just add to losses.

Another thing I just put forward. Retention of horses. There are enough foals to starters to fill fields. In fact we should have a surplus. Add in all the Imports and we'd have many more meetings. But why aren't the foals to starters continually racing? Where are they going? I'm not going to be like the breeders panel and come up with an answer without actually knowing. My theories are in the above post with question marks next to them.

Also by me not offering something up that suits you. It's like me coming up with an idea "I don't think I should have to pay for hot dogs and beer when I go to the trots" I know I'll stand at the gate and collect $2 off everybody that comes in. That is a ridiculous idea on my behalf. But I don't care that its riduculous; I am going to go ahead with it anyway until someones offers up a better idea. That is exactly what you are doing.

Have you not seen the ideas put forward by mango, VVV and others?

Do a deal. I'll admit I can't come with a better idea. And you admit the current idea is ridiculous?

[aussiebreno]

I see tripleVs idea with fillies/mares racing can help my horse retention theory.

[mightymo]

"There is no 'problem' with not enough foals. Yes it would be great if there was more; but that means more races and thus prizemoney comes to a halt; even decreases. If there comes a point fields aren't being met then that means there is more oppurtunities to win races and thus breeding will increase. There is no problem with dwindling foal numbers. Increasing foal numbers will just add to losses. "

What a load of absolute nonsense - you clearly have absolutely no understanding of how the industry is funded. i am speechless.

The same prizemoney gets paid out in a field of 8 starters as it does in a field of 12 starters, however, the turnover is siginificantly greater and so the returns to the industry is significantly greater and this leads to increased prizemoney.

This has nothing to do with any panel. this is just basic FACTS

[aussiebreno]

Ummmmm, if 8 races becomes 9 races that is 1 more race for prizemoney. Common sense mightymo.

EDIT: In the 5 years that fields drops before the increasing foals come in yeah TAB funding may drop by say 20%. If the sport can't cover that then we are in more trouble then the Bali 9

A whole new race is going to do more for turnover than 2 more horses being in a race.

[aussiebreno]

By the way, a long time internet 'truth' has just been found out as fallacy.
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/6/14/129210442730823291.jpg

If you are mightymo you can unsee things. You have done a great job of seemingly ignoring things from the start of the thread simply because they don't agree with your side of the discussion.

[gutwagon]

@aussiebreno you think we dont need to breed more foals. If the numbers keep droping it will no longer be viable for the better quality US stallions to come down under( Aus & NZ ) and that would be a disaster for our breed.
Does anyone know if nz foal numbers are also droping ?
aussiebreno you have said you don't breed or own horses, could you tell us what your involvement in the sport is ? I'm not having a go at you , I just want to better understand your position and views.
Maybe the pannel could have looked into why so many foals don't make it to the track ? It cant just be because they are fillies or not good enough. I have known many people who never try horses, just leave them in the padock, mostly due to training costs ect.

[Termite]

Hello Gutwagon, I see your point about dwindling foal numbers, however, with the present exchange rate and unlimited books in Oz/NZ, I would suspect that the Southern Hemisphere provides income shuttle stallion owners could ill afford to lose. I feel we are a long way off reversing the present trend that sees almost all of the top US studs available down under.

I would also like to express some sympathy for Mighty Mo through this forum. I feel that he is perhaps being criticized a bit unnecessarily for making an effort to improve the industry. The fact that he is present on this forum should be acknowledged, as I'm sure other members of the panel are not as accessible as he has made himself and his views. I hope he has a thick skin and can take some of the valid points that have been made by many contributers to the thread. Personally, I don't like the idea of the credits scheme. I think any benefits would be insignificant, could sustain inefficient areas of the industry and not justify the poor PR and potential loss of owners that would come with the import tax hike. However, it is an idea and ideas in this industry should be welcomed and considered. Through reading several posts I have been convinced of the importance of programming more fillies and mares races. I would start by challenging HRV on this point... If they say it can't be justified due to insufficient field nom's I would challenge them on their recent trotting enhancements which will subsidize a sector of the industry in the interests of reaping a long term benefit - Same principle surely!

[Greg Hando]

All State bodies need to programme more fillies and mares races regardless of field size's to promote to everyone that their is races for the mare's so people will buy and race on the female's longer
it's no good saying we programmed them and no-one turned up it takes time you just can't go and get them out of the paddock and race them we have to change people's thought's on fillies and mares racing.

[mango]

@aussiebreno you think we dont need to breed more foals. If the numbers keep droping it will no longer be viable for the better quality US stallions to come down under( Aus & NZ ) and that would be a disaster for our breed.
Does anyone know if nz foal numbers are also droping ?
aussiebreno you have said you don't breed or own horses, could you tell us what your involvement in the sport is ? I'm not having a go at you , I just want to better understand your position and views.
Maybe the pannel could have looked into why so many foals don't make it to the track ? It cant just be because they are fillies or not good enough. I have known many people who never try horses, just leave them in the padock, mostly due to training costs ect.

Hi Gutwagon

Mare's served in N.Z over the last 10 yrs have averaged around 4200 with last year being there lowest out of the 10 yrs at 3500.

[eliteblood]

I share similar views Triple v, yet when this was brought up with various state programmers they suggest that on many occasions when they do program fillies/mares only races, they dont receive enough noms. my response was that they should simply program them and race them anyway, and eventually trainers will see them and put their fillies and mares in

Mightymo,

That is the answer you always get, we tried it and the races didn't stand up. I'm sure that is true.
I think that can be overcome if a long term approach is adopted. It is no good leaving individual clubs to program these races in isolation other wise you get the situation where Menangle may program a C0 mares on Tuesday and Penrith program the same on Thursday. Neither race stands up.
IMO, there needs to be certainty so that owners and trainers know with certainty that there will be a C0/C1 mares at Menangle every 2nd Tuesday and a C2/C3 on every other week. On the weeks that Menangle has a C0/C1, Penrith has a C2/C3 and vice versa. These races need to be guaranteed. This is only an example, but the philosophy needs to be developed in each state - more than that, in each region of each state. It needs to be widely publicised so that everyone is aware of it.
Mightymo, as you will have read here, I have doubts about the degree of benefit that the mares breeding credt scheme will deliver and I think the greatest opportunity, at little or no cost, is to fix this situation whereby mares have limited racing careers. Your proposal makes reference to it but I would like to see some more specific recommendations.

[gutwagon]

Thanks for that info mango.
It seems clear that we need to encourage breeders/owners to race and keep racing their fillies/mares. I know that adding more mares races to the program wont fix the problem overnight but we must start increasing them now.
I own a 4yo mare, it was fine as a 2 and 3yo she could just race mostly against fillies, now at 4 she has to race the boys. In Vic mares can race in open sex races and drop 1 class (eg c3 mare can go in c2 mixed sex race) this helps but as you move up classes it gets much harder. What incentive is there for me to keep racing her ?
How about a bonus for a mare if she beats the males, what about discounts for fillies in the vicbred and breeders crown series ? Discounts on foal registration for fillies ?
All the big money series are for 2 & 3yo horses. What about the 4 to 8yo ones. We need more for them, like the Tontine series. Plenty of horses retire not because of bad form but lack of opportunity. The longer an owner can keep racing and getting a return from their horses the better for the industry.

[dizzy]

Using the underutilized compoment of the existing population would make the most sence to me to boost the racing population, which is the critical conpoment of the equation not foal numbers actually.

Will take a little time, but not much time in comparison to reaping the benefits of a boosted foal population. Why not program more mares races but with a different prizemoney split then exists now, ie less to the winner, more money down the line? More opportunities for more individual mares to pay their way should lead to more racing and then finding their way to stud.

[eliteblood]

Using the underutilized compoment of the existing population would make the most sence to me to boost the racing population, which is the critical conpoment of the equation not foal numbers actually.

Will take a little time, but not much time in comparison to reaping the benefits of a boosted foal population. Why not program more mares races but with a different prizemoney split then exists now, ie less to the winner, more money down the line? More opportunities for more individual mares to pay their way should lead to more racing and then finding their way to stud.

What about $1000 say to the highest placed filly/mare

[dizzy]

A bonus proportional to the value of the race to highest placed filly or mare in mixed races if they finish better then mid field would have merit. We would want to reward those performances that have merit, not reward a last place finish by the only female in the field type performance, in ordinary races at least..

The question would be though where does the money come from?

[Termite]

I don't see any need to complicate the issue. Authorities need to be able to plan and budget for any reform and convoluted stake payment scenarios are a nightmare. We currently have races for fillies and mares. Just program more of them!

[nat]

Well put Termite

How do we get you on the panel, all this talk about bonuses and conditions are complicated nonsense, program more fillies and mares races from 2-4 yld make racing a 2-4 a priority for both sex's (50% of owners have a filly or mare so there shouldn't be much of an argument about it) If there is more juvenile racing it would make them more valuable commodity at the sales if you wanted to race and it wouldn't matter so much if it was a colt or filly if they get a fare suck of the lollypop.

[aussiebreno]

@aussiebreno you think we dont need to breed more foals. If the numbers keep droping it will no longer be viable for the better quality US stallions to come down under( Aus & NZ ) and that would be a disaster for our breed. A shop doesn't stock 1000 cartons of milk if only 300 of them will get sold. Foals are getting bred at the demand; in fact at a surplus to the demand (see my numbers above where each horse who gets to the races need 13 starts a year). The problem isn't foal numbers but rather horse retention. Of course we would love the game to be bigger; but the simple fact of life is it isn't a mainstream sport; we are never (in the current popularity etc) going to get turnover in the billions; prizemoney in the billions and foals bred in the tens of thousands etc. If there was more horse retention then the racing fields and no of meetings could increase. Then the next problem would foal numbers (if they were to still stay low but they would likely increase as demand for foals would increase). But at the moment the problem isn't foal numbers.
Does anyone know if nz foal numbers are also droping ? per mango :)
aussiebreno you have said you don't breed or own horses, could you tell us what your involvement in the sport is ? I'm not having a go at you , I just want to better understand your position and views. No involvment personally. Relatives both side of the family train/own but ironically my mother and father have zilch involvement. I have no bias towards anything; just doing what is right.
Maybe the pannel could have looked into why so many foals don't make it to the track ? It cant just be because they are fillies or not good enough. I have known many people who never try horses, just leave them in the padock, mostly due to training costs ect.Yep 51% seems high. But of the 49% that do make it to the races they should easily fill the fields out. All about horse retention; not the foal no being born imo. Of which VVV and others have came up with good ideas.
Cheers Gutwagon.

[aussiebreno]

Well put Termite

How do we get you on the panel, all this talk about bonuses and conditions are complicated nonsense, program more fillies and mares races from 2-4 yld make racing a 2-4 a priority for both sex's (50% of owners have a filly or mare so there shouldn't be much of an argument about it) If there is more juvenile racing it would make them more valuable commodity at the sales if you wanted to race and it wouldn't matter so much if it was a colt or filly if they get a fare suck of the lollypop.
Well there you go; had not heard the term fare suck before today. Now heard it twice. Although the other time I heard it it was said fair suck of the dim sim

[nat]

LOL Aussie bit of a typo error

[mango]

Hi Aussiebreno

Mare's served in n.z are correct in my former post as i was e-mailed the list of mare's served over the last 10yrs by a respected breeder who is high up in the breeding industry in n.z, i was over there in early april and was discussing this topic with them and then a month later i recieved the service chart.

[mango]

Hi Aussiebreno

I just found the e-mail i was sent, as per certificate's lodged with HRNZ.

00/01 - 4296

01/02 - 4879

02/03 - 4856

03/04 - 4676

04/05 - 4226

05/06 - 4071

06/07 - 4057

07/08 - 4266

08/09 - 3867

09/10 - 4015

10/11 - 3500

There's been 46709 mare's served in 11yrs giving an average of 4246 mare's served per year.

[aussiebreno]

Yeah mango, wasnt disputing. Is there a standout reason for just 3500 last season? That is a big drop.

[roosters]

Yeah mango, wasnt disputing. Is there a standout reason for just 3500 last season? That is a big drop.


WOW!!!

That is a very astute observation on your part Breno :):)

Do you still think declining foals isnt a problem????

[triplev123]

I share similar views Triple v, yet when this was brought up with various state programmers they suggest that on many occasions when they do program fillies/mares only races, they dont receive enough noms. my response was that they should simply program them and race them anyway, and eventually trainers will see them and put their fillies and mares in

[VVV] G'day Mightymo. Mate, I am so sick to death of that attitude...we program them but the races don't stand up so we don't program them. I am sick to death of these Bozos envoking the Chicken & Egg defence. I suggested the very same thing at the Panel meeting held at Menangle and I got the well worn, totally expected response from a couple of people I thought would be on side but were apparently not..."the TAB agreement prevents us from going with less than full fields".
Well, my view is not pretty, it is not particularly palatable but the time is nigh that we take a more militant attitude.
I say $%&@ the TAB's. $%&@ them all right down to their potted Ficus & Happy Plants. $%&@ their views on full fields. The States need to grow some Cojones right here, right now and they need to stand up and do what we all know is the right thing to do...rather than allowing the Industry to remain little more than a Puppet of the short-sighted bean counting SOB's in offices somewhere in Ultimo. Card the God damned races people and then run them with whomever fronts up and drops their names into the box, regardless if they have full fields or not, and persist in doing so beyond a few weeks or a month or two. They'll get the noms & the full fields and they'll get them in very short order.

[triplev123]

Was just talking to a mate of mine and he raised the point that it is mandated that Breeders Crown Heats throughout Australia are run with whomever noms, regardless of numbers.
Now why is it that, at least in the short term, something of a similar program could not be instituted so as to foster more fillies & mares only races? Surely it can't be that God damned difficult?

[aussiebreno]

WOW!!!

That is a very astute observation on your part Breno :):)

Do you still think declining foals isnt a problem????
Its NZ and the drop in the last season is exaggerated to the prior 10 seasons. Hence my query to Mango; hope he has an answer. It probably has to be a dramatic change. Which now Lance has said below Govt stopped funding.
That has nothing to do with declining foals in Aust over a period of time. You may as well say the increase in pig numbers in Mozambique will result in an increase in chicken numbers in Antartica.
My figures show it isn't declining foal numbers rather horse retention.
VVV and others have put up great ideas to retain horses.
////thread

[roosters]

Its NZ and the drop in the last season is exaggerated to the prior 10 seasons. Hence my query to Mango; hope he has an answer. It probably has to be a dramatic change. Which now Lance has said below Govt stopped funding.
That has nothing to do with declining foals in Aust over a period of time. You may as well say the increase in pig numbers in Mozambique will result in an increase in chicken numbers in Antartica.
My figures show it isn't declining foal numbers rather horse retention.
VVV and others have put up great ideas to retain horses.
////thread

LOL - it must be play time at kinder. Do they let you you use the computers instead of playing in the sandpit??

[aussiebreno]

Yeah, so I take it you have nothing constructive to add?

[nat]

VVV & Mightymo

I agree to run races for fillies and mares no matter how many starters at full prize money maybe run it as a non TAB race like they do for the trotters and to keep the TAB happy run a full field at half prize money people will soon hook into line.

[triplev123]

G'day Nat,

Having somewhat but by no means fully expunged my extreme levels of frustrations over this subject in post #283, I'm growing increasingly confident that things will soon begin to improve dramatically, at least as far as fillies & mares racing opportunities in NSW are concerned anyway. Hopefully other States will then follow suit with a similar focus.
Now, one more time just in case anyone missed it.
WE DON'T NEED TO BREED MORE FOALS, WE NEED TO MAKE BETTER USE OF THE FORGOTTEN 50% OF THE ONES THAT WE ARE ALREADY PRODUCING, THE FILLIES & MARES.

[nat]

Hi VVV

You have me believing you I have 5 fillies and mares of different ages to race, 2 are over age racing and the other 3 are weanling, yearling and 2yld now the sad part is once they are over aged racing unless they are extremely good they will sit in the paddock till they are bred or moved on. So how many owner breeders are out there like me that have these horses in the paddocks I see so many good mares always running a good race that just cannot crack it against the stallions & geldings

[gutwagon]

agree with nat. under the current system we do need more foals, but only colts.
It's clear from the report that they don't have any major plans to increase racing chances for females so we need to keep breeding big numbers.

[aussiebreno]

agree with nat. under the current system we do need more foals, but only colts.
It's clear from the report that they don't have any major plans to increase racing chances for females so we need to keep breeding big numbers.
Firstly, much love to VVV.

Now Gutwagon...why would a breeders report focus on race programming? :s

[nat]

Maybe we could sex breed them like dairy cattle but in a role reversal just for colts and just have a 30-50 good mares that we embryo flush and do embryo transfers to the top stallions every year for our foal numbers

PS. I'm only taking the piss before anyone takes my comment seriously

[triplev123]

Firstly, much love to VVV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ua-7YpUtPA

[mango]

Its NZ and the drop in the last season is exaggerated to the prior 10 seasons. Hence my query to Mango; hope he has an answer. It probably has to be a dramatic change. Which now Lance has said below Govt stopped funding.
That has nothing to do with declining foals in Aust over a period of time. You may as well say the increase in pig numbers in Mozambique will result in an increase in chicken numbers in Antartica.
My figures show it isn't declining foal numbers rather horse retention.
VVV and others have put up great ideas to retain horses.
////thread

Hey Breno

I couldn't honestly tell you the reason for the big drop in mare's being served in n.z the reason it was sent to me is we were discussing the drop in mare's being served in Aus whilst i was in n.z and he said n.z just hit an all time low so he sent it through to highlight how big of a drop it was compared to other years.

[gutwagon]

Firstly, much love to VVV.

Now Gutwagon...why would a breeders report focus on race programming? :s

Well maybe they could see that half the horses we breed are being wasted just because of their sex !
They also should be looking at the industry as a whole , not dividing it up and only trying to help one section that they have financial interests in .

[Midfrew]

Lance Justice: the drop in foal numbers would correspond perfectly with the withdrawal of the nz governments support that was boosting prizemoney, ie the 600k nz great northern derby


I doubt that there is any linkage here. A former minister put up $3 million per annum initially to have a few elite $1 million races provided the clubs and codes matched the funding. Hence the $2 million NZ Derby for t'breds. It was a very poisonous chalice. Harness NZ negotiated a better deal that spread the money over about ten Group 1 races. The funding ended last season.

The reasons for the drop in numbers according to our NZSBA survey of 500 breeders were (a) drop in stakes primarily due to a significant drop in wagering in NZ over the last two years due to GFC, (b) rises in costs associated with breeding (vets, working fees etc), (c) stallion fees, (d) people being cautious with money after GFC and Christchurch earthquakes (50% breeders in Greater Canterbury) (e) the loss of over $7 million in funding from the community trust disributing pokie profits, and (f) a general negative feeling towards racing.

The prime boost to stakes four years ago came when the then government reduce industry taxation to match that of the pokies.

John Mooney

[Midfrew]

Lance, agree regarding losses to overseas corporate bookmakers and the like, about $50 - $70 million missing from stakes to all three codes on some estimates. Not just TAB down though, spend on pokies down also. And yes there are NZ TAB issues that need to be resolved, big ones. Cheers John

[The Big Mile]

Given all the shit that has emerged in NSW in the last 2 days makes you wonder why anyone wants to race harness horses at all, doesn't matter where they come from.

[roosters]

It looks like horse numbers is even a bigger problem in NZ. They are so worried about whats happening in Aust, they fail to see the problem in their own back yard.

A second MEETING(in just the last few weeks) has been cancelled next week due to insufficient nominations. Not to mention all the trials that have been cancelled recently as well.

it appears that so many horses are being exported, they cant even fill fields.

Midfrew - whats going on?

[Midfrew]

Roosters, not sure. Trying to work it out by getting the numbers together from vaious sources. In addition to the above Forbury could only muster seven races and this Sunday at Rangiora was not overly full on the noms. Hopefully just seasonal. But I fear given the drop in foal numbers and almost 800 exports to Australia we may have a problem. Perhaps we need an Export Fee! Going to be hard to fill 12-race programs from mid March next year when harness becomes a Thursday to Sunday sport.

John

[The Big Mile]

Midfrew the other way to look at it - does NZ really need these 14/15/16/17 horse fields?

It appears that all horse codes in many countries around the world are experiencing a similar decline. Not all places, but many. Maybe it quite simply is a sign of the times and the huge foal numbers from years gone by are simply an abherration in the modern day.

It goes without saying that racing isn't as popular as it once was. I had a lunch this week with a bloke who was 74. He owned gallopers and he said his dad (whom would be say +/- 100 now) and all his mates were all into racing. All of them. So through sheer wieght of numbers, we have to expect some sort of decline because there are so many challenges to it as a relaxation / hobby medium.

In this day and age you can get a stack of entertainment for very, very little outlay. Look at what SKY channel provides in terms of sport coverage. The kids of today are growing up with sports betting and a bucketload of sports, while up to 30/40 years ago it was all about racing.

Maybe we have to realise that our position on the sporting landscape is smaller than what it currently is.

[doubled123]

exactly BM, everyone i know that punts, punts on sports or pokies, sports through multi\\\'s and pokies when there pissed

never on the trots, a very small number on the greyhounds - they love the lottery factor

[aussiebreno]

Post #304 and #305 exacty. I yearn for the day every track has a restaurant / bar on premises just to get people near the track.

[trigger]

perth last night 109 starters 56 from new zealand 50 percent imported

[Greg Hando]

perth last night 109 starters 56 from new zealand 50 percent imported

All good for the Australian Breeding Industry must make breeder's in the west feel rosey seeing this and some people wonder why this report was done to try and assist breeder's

[Midfrew]

TBM, do not disagree about the big fields. What the wagering turnover figures do prove conclusively is that you need 12+ equally rated horses in a field to maximise turnover. Drop even one or two below 12 and the wagering drops by a greater proportion.

Your second point is on the money. My personal biggest concern is not the lack of foal numbers but the diminishing number of owners. This is one reason why I think HRA is crazy to deter cheap purchases of going horses from NZ with the Import Fee because access to NZ enables current and new owners to get into and/or stay in the industry relatively cheaply, and have a chance of a win!

One figure I would like to see published is total number of NZ imports that had at least one start in a race v. total number that recorded a win for the last five years. I suspect that the percentage is very high. We all know, as you pointed out in an earlier post, that the sport/industry is for enthusiasts who like to win races. An NZ import increases your chances of winning.

[The Big Mile]

TBM, do not disagree about the big fields. What the wagering turnover figures do prove conclusively is that you need 12+ equally rated horses in a field to maximise turnover. Drop even one or two below 12 and the wagering drops by a greater proportion.

Your second point is on the money. My personal biggest concern is not the lack of foal numbers but the diminishing number of owners. This is one reason why I think HRA is crazy to deter cheap purchases of going horses from NZ with the Import Fee because access to NZ enables current and new owners to get into and/or stay in the industry relatively cheaply, and have a chance of a win!

One figure I would like to see published is total number of NZ imports that had at least one start in a race v. total number that recorded a win for the last five years. I suspect that the percentage is very high. We all know, as you pointed out in an earlier post, that the sport/industry is for enthusiasts who like to win races. An NZ import increases your chances of winning.

Firstly Midfrew I find your insights to the NZ side of things really interesting so thanks for posting them.

From what I understand here in Australia 12 is roughly considered the near optimal level of runners in a race. Personally I think 12 is too many, 10 for mine but if the general punting public vote with their dollars it must be closer to 12. I just don't get these 14-15-16-17 horse fields. I really don't. Where's the good for the sport in the eyes of the punter if your horse is buried 8 fence?

I have said it so many times before over the years but the biggest failings of harness racing has been the simple neglect of keeping owners in the sport or enticing new ones.
The only time people hear about harness racing is when there is scandal like whats going on in NSW. Its the only time people hear about it. The problem with promotion is that the local papers now seem to demand payment for carrying printed material related to racing. A massive change from the olden days where if your paper didn't carry a form guide, then its popularity would diminish. Apparently TABcorp pay for the racing supplements and so forth to appear in the major papers. Thats why harness racing gets so little coverage, it is a backwater and the TAB seem to revel in promoting it as that (because they love the churn and burn of greyhound races at every available second).

Harness racing has failed to play to its great strengths - affordability and proximity to the races. The fact that the horses go slower due to their gate means you can actually catch the last 400m and revel in it against the gallops that start as blips on the horizon and go past you so fast you barely know whom has won (live on track that is).

Harness racing as part of the sporting and social landscape has diminshed so so quickly. We have to realise that. I think foal numbers reflect that, the massive drops in registered people (about to get bigger in NSW :eek:) and drop in the numbers of owners is simply a sign of the times. Problem is - as the report suggests with the foal drops - is that it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy if things are not arrested on all fronts.

The brilliant increases in prizemoney at Menangle only paper over the cracks in the greater harness racing fabric. If the sport did not own Harold Park, it would be dead and buried in NSW within 30 years.

I think we all have to wake up and realise thar harness racing simply isn't as popular as it was, it is clearly and ageing sport with no overtures to entice younger people into the game and with the competition for the entertainment dollar the ability to entice new people into it is rapidly diminishing.

This is why anything that potentially decreases the possiblity of ownership has to be opposed. I sympathise with the breeders plight, I have made that known on more than one occassion. But when you have an avenue - that I will stake my life on has brought more people into the sport than the purchase of yearlings, being partially shut off, it quite simply cannot be good for the sport.

I was not born into the sport. I fell into it by accident. The amount of people that happens to these days is rarer than an iceberg in the Sahara. The greatest shame is, when you showcase it to people whom haven't experienced it before, greater than 90% say how much they love it. Biggest problem - and I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the sports administrators - is the failure to capitalise on those initial impressions. Its left to current owners themselves to do all the work if they can be bothered.

This very subject grates me badly......

[triplev123]

TBM, do not disagree about the big fields. What the wagering turnover figures do prove conclusively is that you need 12+ equally rated horses in a field to maximise turnover. Drop even one or two below 12 and the wagering drops by a greater proportion.

Your second point is on the money. My personal biggest concern is not the lack of foal numbers but the diminishing number of owners. This is one reason why I think HRA is crazy to deter cheap purchases of going horses from NZ with the Import Fee because access to NZ enables current and new owners to get into and/or stay in the industry relatively cheaply, and have a chance of a win!

One figure I would like to see published is total number of NZ imports that had at least one start in a race v. total number that recorded a win for the last five years. I suspect that the percentage is very high. We all know, as you pointed out in an earlier post, that the sport/industry is for enthusiasts who like to win races. An NZ import increases your chances of winning.

Call me a Heretic however the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me that HRA should flip the import charges on their head. Put 5k on the hit-runners /short term stays and charge the permanents $250 or whatever it is.

[Mark Croatto]

Call me a Heretic however the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me that HRA should flip the import charges on their head. Put 5k on the hit-runners /short term stays and charge the permanents $250 or whatever it is.

Well done big fella, there's hope for you yet!

Nearly 2 years ago I convinced 3 new people to get involved in a horse, he was a yearling that had broken in nicely so a few hurdles were jumped. Needless to say he then developed breathing problems and after a couple of enforced lay offs he has finally got to the point of trialing, 1 month short of turning 4.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that when getting new folk involved you want an up and ready to run horse, preferably at the races. I took a chance, not that we're not out of the woods yet, but had he not shown us what he can do in his latest trials I would have lost all three them. Thankfully it seems to be turning out OK and one of them has already brought along his in-laws and interest is being shown. I know for certain if they want to buy one it will have NZ next to his name!

Regards

Mark

[Greg Hando]

Here's a thought

Import fee $1200 x 700 = $840,000 ( $2500 for short stay horses not included in import no )
Foals Born 7000 x $50 = $350,000
Fillies Born 3500 x $25 = $87,500 (extra on top of foal payment )
Fillies Raced 3500 x $50 = $175,000 (to be paid by whoever races the horse must be paid for filly to be eligible for bonus )
= $1,452,000
Shortfall to be made up from industry fund's from each state
This was just a thought as a breeder and owner who races i would be happy to pay the above fees to support mare's and fillies first win bonus races on 2,3,4yo races for horses bred in Aus
these are only guesstimates on the number of fillies raced as being half of the foal's born and yes people who breed and race fillie's will pay more than other's

[doubled123]

i think breeders crown would fight you on the import fee that way greg, they'd lose every single nz horse from nominations

a VERY simple solution, allow breeders to use sperm sorting to breed the sex of horse they want - if you race your horses and like colts surely you will breed more if you are 90% sure of getting a colt and vice a versa for fulltime filly breeders/retainers... some drawbacks obviously with increase cost and not everyone has the technology that was designed for dairy cows and would also be a concentration of families

maybe its better having less fillies bred over all ; if a higher % of those fillies race for 5 years and then have 10 foals??/ thoughts people

[Greg Hando]

It was just a thought as i haven't seen any other suggestion's and was just putting it out there to see if their was any other possibilities to raise fund's.
These were just number's to see where it was possible to raise the fund's from to support the mares bonus scheme if something isn't done to try and help promote our breeding industry we will be in trouble in a few year's timePeople seemed to think that the short stay horse's were the one's taking all the money any that come for the Breeder's Crown would be able afford the fee at whatever price.
Their has been a steady decline in number's bred for the last 20 year's i know of probably up to 25 people who no longer breed and that is just in my area because of poor return's not only from selling horse's but also from prizemoney we won a race in 1989 and got $1400 first money and still don't get that at graduation meeting's and just a touch more at restricted meeting's if you win. I know just in my immediate family their is at least 15 foal's not being bred due to the return's versus outlay.

[mango]

Hi Greg

Return's versus outlay's that can be a worry, but i also think people's selection in stallion's play a big part in this problem. To many people want A- Major, Bettor's and M 3's and there expensive they should be looking at tried and proven or up comming stallion's at the $3k-$4k mark where it's not a huge outlay and they still have a great chance of a return, there is some value there with horses as Armbro Operative, Village Jasper, Aces, Live or Die, Changeover, Santanna Blue Chip, Art Official, Alway's A Virgin and the list goes on. Some time's you just have to go to the one you can afford and not the one you want.

[Greg Hando]

Mainly talking about prizemoney return's

[triplev123]

i think breeders crown would fight you on the import fee that way greg, they'd lose every single nz horse from nominations


[VVV] Who gives a bugger? At the same time the Kiwis have steadfastly made it virtually impossible for an Oz owned/performed horse to get into the Jewels...and they continue to block the use of Oz made racebikes. Nice. It's a two way street Trooper. At the moment it is ALL one way Traffic.

[triplev123]

Hi Greg

Return's versus outlay's that can be a worry, but i also think people's selection in stallion's play a big part in this problem. To many people want A- Major, Bettor's and M 3's and there expensive they should be looking at tried and proven or up comming stallion's at the $3k-$4k mark where it's not a huge outlay and they still have a great chance of a return, there is some value there with horses as Armbro Operative, Village Jasper, Aces, Live or Die, Changeover, Santanna Blue Chip, Art Official, Alway's A Virgin and the list goes on. Some time's you just have to go to the one you can afford and not the one you want.


[VVV] Right now I reckon that Artistic Fella is by far & away the most BANG you can get for your $. You get a Hell of a lot of horse for not a whole lot of $. This time around he's only $4,000 less multiples...and his weanlings just about to turn yearlings look really good too.