New sires

[KTQ]

What do you all think of the new sires that are going to stand in Australia this season; Betting Line, Always B Miki, Fly Like An Eagle, Creatine etc

I personally look for a stallion that not only has an impeccable race record but a good maternal line as well, with brilliant siblings and winners right the way through.
Rocknroll Heaven ticked that box a couple years ago and as such, is doing a pretty good job here. How will the aforementioned (and I'm sure I've missed a tonne) compare?

[Messenger]

That is a big project Katie, I will begin with Betting Line tonight who is a huge project in himself. We all know about Bettors Delight so like you I am interested in his maternal line

I have not paid for any info from the USTA so although long this post is not comprehensive.
Not being a big follower of US harness racing there are probably big names other than those I have listed which more ardent followers would know (and possibly add for us)

Of course you will find his pedigree everywhere but I have attached a pdf screenshot at the bottom of the post which will give you 5gens using Pedigree Partner just for those who like Colour Crosses (I hope it is clear enough)

Here is a link to his pretty impressive credentials/race history which includes the Little Brown Jug and fastest 3yo of his year

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/History.aspx?HorseID=10174718&SE=TimeAmountClass&AD=ASC

Here is the USTA link for his dam and 2nd dam (which has his basic stats up the top too)

http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=812

Both producers and racemares themselves with 1st dam Heather's Western having won a Gp3 as a 2yo and 3yo (see link below) Betting Line is the standout of their progeny (only Millionaire)

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/History.aspx?HorseID=10057991

I then used the fantastic classicfamilies again to open all the little boxes (100's ?) which lists all the notable descendants of his 6th dam Laura Hanover which is probably going back a bit far considering this is the prolific U1 Family but I thought it interesting that her 3 serious producing progeny are all full sisters by Nibble Hanover thus making the sisters of his 5th dam Miss Laura more interesting in my eyes (and the reason why I went back to his 6th dam)

You can too by using the following link, or just keep reading

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10010734

The strongest arm of the family is the Beryl Hanover arm (full sis to BL's 5th dam) where we find standouts:
$3.5m winning mare Anndrovette
$2.3m winner and sire Dragon Again
Super sire Bret Hanover

Next strongest arm is the Odella Hanover arm (full sis to BL's 5th dam)
sire Western Terror
and his near on 2M winning full bro If I Can Dream
NZ sire Sir Dalrae
plus a few other millionaires

Betting Line's 5th dam Miss Bullet is the other strong line of the family and although he is the real standout, without going to the lengths I have, if you open this link for his 3rd dam Marfa Newton and open the four + boxes you will see that this arm could prove very strong

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10038113

I might have preferred him to belong to the Beryl Hanover arm but nobody would be surprised to see him cut it as a stallion and everybody wants Bettors!

One more classicfamilies link - just look at who the U1 family have produced

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/FamilyWinners.aspx?FamilyNumber=U1&SE=qTimeGroup&AD=ASC

and here is the pdf for Betting Line's ped in colour (I hope)

[Fan of Jate]

Beautifully done Kev. I know Alabar are totally chuffed they got Always B Miki especially as he is regarded as the fastest horse ever. Getting some good new stallions in as some of the old stagers unfortunately have passed away recently.

[KTQ]

Thanks Kev! How much importance do you place on 5th/6th dams vs 1st/2nd/3rd? I've always looked at more recent activity as I feel it's more influential and recent

[aussiebreno]

Come across this article a few weeks ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/jun/22/horse-breeding-genetics-thoroughbreds-racing-dna

[Messenger]

A good read Brendan although I must say that it wandered away from the topic a few times.
I found Dublin's Dr Hill more interesting/specific than Brown's Dr Harrison.
Overall it seems most relevant to those who only want to breed a sprinter or stayer - because if you're happy with either, it will not take your trainer too long to work out which they are

As they say, a single animal in the 5th generation only contributes 3% of a horse's DNA and despite all my research for BL, I wonder whether Frank Mitchell's claim has been be disproven nowadays:

"Genes are passed on randomly from all parts of the pedigree"

Having a foot in this corner leads me to like strong families

Overall I tend to believe in Joe Estes' statement that

"the racing class of the parents is the only dependable index I have ever found to indicate the probable racing class of the offspring. That index is, of course, reliable only to a limited degree. But it is far more reliable than any other"

No doubt Katie, one wants the recent family to be performing and for that reason Betting Line's arm of U1 is very strong

(Estes day was long ago and Mitchell's book is now more than 10yo - but I am an old timer myself now LOL. And a huge amateur)

[Messenger]

Here are 2 links for Always B Miki's credentials, as I wanted to highlight (link 1) that more than half his $2.7m in stakes was won as a 5yo, unlike Betting Line who has been sent to stud after his 3yo season

http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion.cfm?stallion_id=808

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/History.aspx?HorseID=10168278&SE=TimeAmountClass&AD=ASC

Here is the USTA link for his dam and 2nd dam:

http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=808

Just as Betting Line had, they are both producers and racemares themselves. The 1st dam Artstopper won US Broodmare of the Yr producing a second millionaire whom like Miki performed better later, after leaving filly ranks.
The 2nd dam Aint No Stopn Me was the better racehorse winning a Gp3 as a 2yo and a Gp2 as a 3yo:

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/History.aspx?HorseID=10035207

I then went back as far as ABM's 5th dam but this arm of the family only gains any prominence on classicfamilies from the 4th dam Savilla Song who has 8 progeny that classicfamilies expands upon so there were a few boxes to open but I only found 3 millionaires other than ABM and his sister and 2 of these were Jeremy's Gambit and his brother Sapphire City

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10017574

Jeremy's Gambit went to stud including NZ but never made it as a sire

The U14 family is not a particularly strong family, I don't think they have ever produced a superstar sire.

http://classicfamilies.net/cf/FamilyWinners.aspx?FamilyNumber=u14&SE=qTimeGroup&AD=ASC

From the broader family, we saw Forrest Skipper out here but he never made it and his bloodlines only intersect with ABM over 100yrs ago! Incredible Crafts and Alf Palema would seem to have won some distinction as sires in Europe but they too only intersect a century ago
CR Kay Suzie was a champion but he never made it at stud and once again has a negligible link to ABM

This is his coloured 5gen ped thanks to Pedigree Partner
It is a very pretty looking pedigree but not one that PP rated highly so the duplications must not be where they like them
Overall he is Always A Virgin's only standout and on breeding you cannot fault his dam but there is not much else to enthuse you from my research
Of course one has to watch replays of these potential sires races and see if you are impressed by the type of racehorse they were

[Fan of Jate]

Love your work Kev, and that probably explains why Betting line is $10k and Always b Micki is $7k.

Racing Hill is $5k and was pretty handy as a 2/3 year old and a son of Roll with Joe from the u4 family which is very strong as well.

None of the above have any winning progeny from the US compared to RRHeaven and Roll with Joe when they started stud duties here

Art Major and a RNR dance did do very well as 4 y/os. Not sure if to many have gone on to be top stallions after racing til the age of 5

[Messenger]

Creatine, one of Andover Hall's best trotting sons, is from the same U14 family as Always B Miki (see above) but totally different arms
If anybody wants to do him in detail go for it (maybe Richard who likes the European forum)

His dam line is not that exciting but his pedigree bares comparison to Donato Hanover whom I think is probably Andover Hall's greatest advertisiement (even I have heard of him)
You will see that while Donato H was out of a Donerail mare, Creatine's 2nd dam is by Donerail
Donato H is however from the infinitely stronger U3 family, not that his immediate dams were anything special at all
I notice that Donato H only bred to 6 mares last year (anybody know the story?)

Here are the pedigrees and Creatin's USTA links

http://classicfamilies.net/HorseDetails.aspx?HorseID=10151350

http://classicfamilies.net/horsedetails.aspx?HorseID=10056350

http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion.cfm?stallion_id=806

http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=806

[KTQ]

A couple winners there..

[Richard prior]

Bit late for this season but Betting Line looks a hell of a prospect

[papagayo]

If the maternal family is what matters, Speedy Crown wouldn't be an average stallion even... There rest consists of Lindy's Crown + a handful of good European trotters and that's it, the maternal family is then relatively weak. And Ready Cash' maternal family ... you can count the number of great horses in that family with one hand with three fingers missing (Ready Cash, Podosis and thank you, good night. That is it from that family.)

[Richard prior]

The same applies to Bettor’s Delights maternal family also, Was looked upon as being very disappointing for years but it exploded with the emergence of Bettor’s and now his younger full brother RWJ is doing the job, If you look closely at the family, You’ll notice that Matt’s Scooter also comes from the same tribe, I wonder if the family is looked upon differently these days, Bettor’s and Matt’s were absolutely outstanding on the track, RWJ was no slouch and I believe No Pan Intended won the Triple Crown in the USA but I’ll have to confirm that

[Messenger]

I don't follow Papa's belief that the maternal family does not matter - it is no guarantee but how can you say it does not matter?
I think you can say it 'might not matter' as there will be champions produced when good sires are bred to donkeys just as there can be champions produced when good mares are covered by ordinary sires (or even fence jumpers) and let's not forget the freaks = where are champion is produced by a couple of donkeys

I cannot help but wonder whether the old theory that

"Genes are passed on randomly from all parts of the pedigree"

could be the explanation for unexplainable good horses

To use Richard's example of Bettors - whose family was weak until his dam Classic Wish lit it up
If the dam did not matter (was not a factor) - that it was all thanks to Cams Card Shark
how is it that Classic Wish was such a good vehicle for not only CCS but also sires Pacific Fella (No Pan Intended) and Rocknroll Hanover (Classic Rock NRoll)

It would seem pretty fluky that she hit with 3 sires and contributed nothing

http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descendants.aspx?HorseID=10029345

[Richard prior]

I’m going with the Randomly theory Kev but I must say that Classic Wish was freakish, Have a look at what her daughters are leaving now, Gee she has been influential

[papagayo]

To rephrase: there is no evidence to suggest it matters :)

Also don't overlook the random distribution. If the odds of producing a good horse from a mating between "poor sire" and "poor mare" (loosely defined) is 1 in 500 (I am just randomly picking a number to illustrate the point so don't get hung up on it), then 1 in every 500 will be good and the reason is just the variation involved, i.e. produce enough foals and *at some point* there will be good ones just by virtue of the number of foals. There is no further explanation to it and no more logic or explanation to be read from it :)

[alphastud]

This study was interesting. ..

http://www.publish.csiro.au/RD/RD15063

Abstract
Many studies have focused on identifying the genes or single nucleotide polymorphisms associated with the athletic ability of thoroughbreds, but few have considered differences in maternal and paternal heritability of athletic ability. Herein, we report on our association study of career race performances of 675 Australian thoroughbreds with their pedigrees. Racing performance data (prize money per start) were collected from the Bloodhound database. The performance of all horses was categorised as either poor or elite athletic achievement. Then, 675 foals were divided by their parents’ performance (elite or poor) into four groups: (1) elite dams and elite sires; (2) elite dams and poor sires; (3) poor dams and elite sires; and (4) poor dams and poor sires. The performance of foals was then compared between the four groups. The results show that the heritability of race performance between dams and foals (r = 0.141, P < 0.001) is much higher than that between sires and foals (r = 0.035, P = 0.366), and that this difference is statistically significant (P < 0.05). We also examined the effect of the child-bearing age of dams and sires on the ratio of elite foals. We found a strong correlation between the number of elite foals and dams’ child-bearing age (r = –0.105, P < 0.001), with the ratio of elite offspring reaching a high level between a child-bearing age of 8 and 11 years (χ2 = 14.31, d.f. = 1, P < 0.001). These findings suggest that the maternal line may play an important role in the selective breeding of athletic performance in thoroughbreds.

[Messenger]

To rephrase: there is no evidence to suggest it matters :)

Also don't overlook the random distribution. If the odds of producing a good horse from a mating between "poor sire" and "poor mare" (loosely defined) is 1 in 500 (I am just randomly picking a number to illustrate the point so don't get hung up on it), then 1 in every 500 will be good and the reason is just the variation involved, i.e. produce enough foals and *at some point* there will be good ones just by virtue of the number of foals. There is no further explanation to it and no more logic or explanation to be read from it :)

There seems to be evidence in the post above this one Sturla

I am not sure what your random distribution paragraph is attempting to say other than

A poor sire x A poor mare = will produce a good horse 1/?00 (say 1/500)

Are you suggesting the odds are no different for :

A good sire x A good mare = A good sire x A poor mare?

I can understand that it is not essential but not irrelevant

ps From a personal/human perspective - I looked and ran like my mother ('s brothers)

[papagayo]

I may misunderstood but in my eyes you are mixing apples and oranges.

The study mentioned above proves a clear correlation between the dam's on-track performance and the on-track performance of her production. This is not in doubt and has been proven by many studies in the harness world as well. I have done two such analyses on European trotters which have proven the same correlation (one of which was on the Scandinavian coldblood trotters which showed the correlation to be borderline extreme actually but that's beside the point). My original comment was that the maternal family of a stallion is insignifant to the stallion's performance at stud. I hope it is clear that those are two very different things.

There is also nothing in the quoted analysis which shows anything about performance at stud of the foals. Clearly those are not the same thing, hence my apples and oranges reference. (The analysis also looks at the dam-foal relation which naturally is much stronger than the relation with the maternal family (or tail female) as a whole.)

So when you say "There seems to be evidence in the post above this one Sturla" I would say "though the above is correct there is absolutely nothing in it contracting what I said."

...

"I am not sure what your random distribution paragraph is attempting to say other than" ...

"Are you suggesting the odds are no different for :

A good sire x A good mare = A good sire x A poor mare?"

I am sorry but who can you possibly extract that from what I wrote? I am puzzled you make that inference because I didn't say that nor do I even see how that can be read into it.

[Messenger]

OK, I looked at your "there will be good ones just by virtue of the number of foals. There is no further explanation to it and no more logic or explanation to be read from it"
and I think I took your 'no more logic' too literally :D

[alphastud]

I may misunderstood but in my eyes you are mixing apples and oranges.

My original comment was that the maternal family of a stallion is insignifant to the stallion's performance at stud.

Hi Sturla, this theory is probably against what most believe. Do you have an analysis or review that you can share that supports your theory?

Thanks

[papagayo]

Hi Sturla, this theory is probably against what most believe. Do you have an analysis or review that you can share that supports your theory?

Thanks

My "theory" is based on the fact that there isn't a single thing to support the opposite. It is my (and I am not the only one) view based on the simple fact that nobody has provided anything to support anything else. ("What most believe" doesn't appeal to me :) )

There is nothing concrete (in science itself or any studies/analysis etc) which has proven - or even indicated - that the maternal family of a stallion plays a significant role (by "significant" I mean "statistically significant", i.e. measureably significant).

The strongest maternal family on the trotting side (which I refer to as it is what I am most familiar with) is undoubtedly the maternal family tracing back to Medio (which is the maternal family of horses such as Mack Lobell, the Hall brothers, Artsplace, Bret Hanover, Speedy Somolli, American Winner, Cambest, Victory Tilly, Wiggle It Jiggleit, Hannelore Hanover etc etc). There is nothing to suggest that stallions from this family produce better than stallions from other family. Some stallions from this family are great, some are good, some are average and some are weak. But there is nothing to suggest that if you have two relatively similar stallions, one from Medio's family and one from another family, the one from Medio's family on average will perform better at stud.

[Messenger]

Sturla, I don't know about empirical evidence but purely on observation - If I have one stallion from the Medio family and one from a less credentialed family, I am going to say there is a greater chance that the Medio one will be successful. I would almost consider it like 'form' - the family has the record on the board. I understand that one off, potential stallion A v B, you might consider it a coin toss but if I am taking a gamble on which family will produce the next big stallion I might go for the Medio family over the other

If better stallions are mostly from better horses (some exceptions of course and many who are probably never given a chance for commercial reasons) and better horses are mostly from better families - isn't that a correlation of a sort?

[papagayo]

If better stallions are mostly from better horses (some exceptions of course and many who are probably never given a chance for commercial reasons) and better horses are mostly from better families - isn't that a correlation of a sort? Sorta. But if the maternal family has significance, then stallions from these families must do better than otherwise comparable stallions and that is on paper a different correlation.

Btw, if maternal family matter, one could also expect stallions to perform better with mares from certain families. Such statistics are available and show clearly that there is no such relation in general.

[Richard prior]

Extremely interesting conversation or topic, I’ll have to read it a few times so it sinks in, Hi Sturla, With so many breeding theory’s and choices these days, What are you thoughts on breeding back into the herd?? Just going to comment on some of the above now, Some stallions do click with particular families, I think there’s more than enough evidence to prove that when you have a close look at Classic Families.

[papagayo]

Extremely interesting conversation or topic, I’ll have to read it a few times so it sinks in, Hi Sturla, With so many breeding theory’s and choices these days, What are you thoughts on breeding back into the herd??

To avoid misunderstandings or confusion, what exactly is meant by this?


Just going to comment on some of the above now, Some stallions do click with particular families, I think there’s more than enough evidence to prove that when you have a close look at Classic Families.

Maybe but what do you have in mind? The two hottest trotting stallions in Europe and NA, Muscle Hill and Ready Cash, have both displayed some extremely clear preferences in terms of damsires but not necessarily in terms of maternal families.

Muscle Hill have produced well with many kind of mares but none better than daughters of Cantab Hall and Credit Winner:

Southwind Frank (matfam Molly J)
Ariana G
All The Time (full sisters, matfam Minnehaha)
Manchego (matfam Topsey)

Resolve (matfam Midnight)
Bar Hopping (matfam Mambrino Beauty)
You Know You Do (matfam Lizzie Witherspoon)
Fly On (matfam Esther)

and if you look at maternal families as a whole, requiring a minimum of 20 foals to avoid those small groups where the career numbers of one horse makes the group averages representative, the maternal family that has clicked best with Muscle Hill is the Maggie H family (Marion Marauder, Lookslikeachpndale, Odds On Amethyst, Tobin Kronos etc).
This is not meant to be a comprehensive analysis but rather to illustrate that either damsire or maternal bloodlines are not the same as maternal families.

So "some stallions do click with particular families" - yes, if you mean certain damsires or certain bloodlines but no if you mean mares from specific maternal families if you ask me :)

[Greg Hando]

One sire that could be the next good thing that everyone has forgotten about is For A Reason 33 foals for 15 winners 45% w/f from not the topline mares one to watch

[Messenger]

and as you know Greg, we will have a bit of a wait and see as next season he will have nine 2yo's at most while 2019-20 he could have over 50 (with 91 foals)

[Richard prior]

Changeover doing a nice job as well
59 to the Races
37 winners @ 18k per starter
Tintin in America
20 to the Races
13 winners @ 24k per starter

[Richard prior]

Must say I had some concerns with Changeover and Tintin’s prospects at stud but they seem to be going well and with For A Reason doing a good job, It’s very encouraging for the local industry, All 3 were high class performers on the track

[Greg Hando]

Captaintreachorous doing a good job in the baby races at the Meadowlands on the weekend see US page for details

[Bonnie]

It's good to see Greg. We certainly need some new and exciting blood coming through. He certainly has breeding and performance on his side and I am looking forward to his babies racing. I have a weanling filly by him and she is a good type and 2 mares in foal to him.

[Dot]

Certainly seems the Captain T colts were impressive but perhaps shaded on the day by a smart filly by Heston Blue Chip

[Greg Hando]

STRS are trials
Captain T 113 foals 23 strs 7 in 2.00 3 in 1.55
Sweet Lou 97 foals 25 strs 4 in 2.00 2 in 1.55
Heston Bluechip 27 foals 12 strs 1 in 2.00 1 in 1.55
Sunshine Beach 101 foals 8 strs only
As an add on that maybe of interest to some A Rocknroll Dance 69 foals for 40 wnrs 58% w/f and Pet Rock 99 foals 54 wnrs 55% w/f early in the 3yo season so far

[Greg Hando]

Huntsville another good young horse coming down under.

Sensational USA two-year-old Pacer of the Year and World Champion Huntsville (p,2,1:49; 3,1:47.4 ($1,704,242)) has been issued an international passport and is headed to Empire Stallions in Victoria to stand the upcoming 2018-19 breeding season.

In one of the deepest crops in recent history, Huntsville defeated the best of his generation on his way to accumulating 15 wins and nine placings from 25 lifetime starts at two and three while banking over $1.7 million in earnings.

From the minute Huntsville first set his hooves on a racetrack it was evident he was destined for greatness. In his very first 2YO trial at The Meadowlands, Huntsville blew by his competitors with a 27.1 final quarter to win in 1:54.2.

During his two-year-old season, Huntsville was never worse than second in 11 starts with seven victories and earnings of $689,814. In a six-race win streak that culminated with his dominant win in the $600,000 Breeders Crown Final, Huntsville captured the Tyler B Pennsylvania Sire Stake, the $252,000 Pennsylvania Sire Stakes Championship, the $66,000 Bluegrass Stake, the $65,000 International Stallion Stake and the Breeders Crown elimination.

Huntsville provided many great moments during his two-year-old campaign, but his exciting win in the Bluegrass Stake with a 26.3 last quarter in the mud at The Red Mile was an eye-opener. And, he came right back the following week with yet another extraordinary performance pacing 26.4 in both his last two quarters to win the International Stallion Stake in a 2YO World Record of 1:49. Despite a 54.1 first half-mile in the Breeders Crown Final, Huntsville used a bold middle move to secure command of the lead and went on to capture the Crown by two lengths in 1:49.1 – setting a Meadowlands track record and missing the stakes record by only a fifth of second.


Huntsville completed this Championship season as the both the richest and fastest 2YO of the year and was voted the USA 2YO Pacing Colt of 2016.

Huntsville returned at three to high expectations and he did not disappoint. In 14 starts, he was only out of the money once winning eight races and placing five times earning a further $1,014,428. He lowered his lifetime record to 1:47.4 making him the fastest three-year-old of 2017.

He won eliminations for the Adios Stake in a brilliant 1:49.3 over the Meadows 5/8ths mile oval, the North America Cup at Mohawk Raceway in 1:49.1 and The Meadowlands Pace in 1:48.4 with a sizzling 26.2 last quarter. Huntsville was also victorious in the $160,000 Jenna’s Beach Boy Stake at Hoosier Park with an impressive gate to wire win in 1:49.1.

In the $334,000 Cane Pace, Huntsville proved he could be just as effective at a distance as he was over a mile. He turned in another stellar performance leading every step of the way winning the 1 1/8 mile contest (1,800 metres) in 2:03 at The Meadowlands.

Without a doubt, the highlight of Huntsville’s three-year-old season was his thrilling win in the $738,000 Meadowlands Pace. Huntsville got away fourth and issued a backstretch charge to grab the lead flashing past the three-quarter pole in a torrid 1:20.3. In an epic display of guts and determination, Huntsville dug down deep in the stretch to hold off his challengers while achieving a new career best of 1:47.4.

Huntsville retired at three to begin stallion duty at Cameo Hills Farm in the very competitive state of New York where he has served a full book of quality mares in 2018.

It’s no wonder Huntsville excelled on the racetrack – his pedigree is nothing short of royalty. His sire, the late Somebeachsomewhere needs no introduction. From only six North American crops to race, he is the sire of 560 winners from 618 foals, 456 in 1:55, 60 in 1:50 or faster and the winners of over $91 million. Last year, he became the only sire in history whose progeny earned over $20 million in a single season. In Australia, Beach has sired 185 winners from 219 starters who have earned nearly $10 million including the standout Group 1 Champions Our Waikiki Beach p,1:50.4 ($912,294), Menin Gate p,1:54.3 ($557,259), Petacular p,1:55.6 ($378,1990) and Poster Boy p,3,1:54.1 ($378,190) – just to name a few.

Huntsville dam Wild West Show p,4,1:42.4 ($217,714) is by Western Hanover out of the Artsplace mare Sweet On Art combining two of the most influential sire lines in modern history. To date, she is the dam of five foals of racing age for five winners with two in 1:50 and four in 1:55 or faster. In 2017, she received the prestigious honour of USA Broodmare of the Year. She is currently in foal to another Empire stallion – Betting Line.

Huntsville is a magnificent dark bay stallion standing 16 hands who was a fierce competitor with tremendous heart and a strong will to win, outstanding conformation and excellent fertility.

“We are very excited with the addition of Huntsville to our line-up this season,” Empire principal David James said.

“Huntsville is one of Somebeachsomewhere’s best sons and his credentials speak for themselves. We believe Huntsville will continue to carry on the legacy of his esteemed sire and play a significant role in the future Australian racing scene.”

Huntsville will stand for a very attractive fee of $6,000 including GST and discounts will apply. His progeny will be Vicbred, Breeders Crown, NSW Breeders Challenge, Bathurst Gold Crown and SA Southern Cross eligible – conditions apply.



Peter Wharton

[Messenger]

Gotta love how they call 1800m a distance

[alphastud]

Huntsville looks like a very exciting stallion. .. only ever missed a placing once from 25 starts.

Does anyone know how he makes progeny NSW Breeders Challenge eligible or is this a typo?

What mares do you think might work with him?

[Dot]

It's in the conditions apply Richard. He doesn't but if the mare is inseminated and foals down in NSW the foal will be NSW Breeders Challenge eligible

[KTQ]

I'm always a little tentative with stallions who only raced at 2 and 3. So many 2/3 yo champs in Australia never go on to win more races as older horses. Sure a lot get injuries but the playing field also evens out and they reach their mark. You wonder how these 'champion' US horses would have performed in all age races.

[Messenger]

The other way of looking at Katie is to consider whether 2yo performances might be more natural ability and less chemistry :eek:

[Dot]

During the 2yo season results can be dominated by horses that come to hand more quickly then others and results during the 3yo season as the crop matures should hold more sway. The business model in the U.S. doesn't favour older horses going to stud and most potential stud colts have pretty much left it all on the track as 3yos in pursuit of success in stakes races to ensure a place in the breeding barn. Those that return at 4 are pretty much racing free for all class and doing so after a tough 3 yo year and often struggle with the transition to open class.

If the business model was different and the horses managed for a lengthy career on the track then it's likely a number of them would have good results. One swallow doesn't make a summer, but Mr Feelgood was a stakes level ( won the jug) colt at 3, went to stud but had fertility problems and returned to racing. His downunder record as an older horse was pretty good.

[alphastud]

It's in the conditions apply Richard. He doesn't but if the mare is inseminated and foals down in NSW the foal will be NSW Breeders Challenge eligible

Thanks Dot. So this means that Huntsville has NO influence on making any mare NSW BREEDERS CHALLENGE ELIGIBLE as he is a VIC based stallion. He can however make any mares progeny VICBRED which is a bonus. Peter could correct that press release as it can get confusing.

[Dot]

Thanks Dot. So this means that Huntsville has NO influence on making any mare NSW BREEDERS CHALLENGE ELIGIBLE as he is a VIC based stallion. He can however make any mares progeny VICBRED which is a bonus. Peter could correct that press release as it can get confusing.

Yes he could correct it to add WESTBRED and QBRED as well! There are conditions for Huntsvilles Vicbred eligibility as well. Your conceived and foaled in NSW Breeders Challenge eligble foal would only be Vicbred eligible if you return the coupon on the service certificate and appropriate fee to HRV when you notify the foal to HRNSW. However as the two premier breeders scheme series in VIC and NSW run almost in parallel it is virtually impossible now to compete in the entire series for both.

Each state has one or more series based on a number of eligibility criteria related to their breeders schemes. It is well worth breeders doing their homework not just on their preferred stallion but also their prefered eligibility for the various breeders schemes. If they are having trouble figuring it out they would be well advised to seek further advice from their governing body before confirming their bookings.

[Messenger]

I know breeders are looking for the Somebeachsomewhere in Huntsville's pedigree but it is interesting to note that his dam Wild West Show is a ¾ sister to Tiz a Masterpiece (and Big Bad John)

http://classicfamilies.net/horsedetails.aspx?HorseID=10183813

http://classicfamilies.net/HorseDetails.aspx?HorseID=10101605

[Greg Hando]

Huntsville looks like a very exciting stallion. .. only ever missed a placing once from 25 starts.

Does anyone know how he makes progeny NSW Breeders Challenge eligible or is this a typo?

What mares do you think might work with him?

Born and registered in NSW as i understand it Richard

[Dot]

Southwind Frank joining the frozen semen trotting sires available

[alphastud]

Born and registered in NSW as i understand it Richard

Ok. Thanks Greg, however any mares progeny that is born and registered in NSW is NSW Breeders Challenge eligible by default.

Huntsville is NOT making any progeny NSW Breeders Challenge eligible. He's NOT having any influence over NSW Breeders Challenge eligibility. It's purely the mare and foals birthplace.

[Dot]

No he isn't Richard but the press release isn't wrong, his progeny will be eligible for those schemes if the "conditions apply" criteria are met. It's no different for other stallions standing outside NSW and similar is frequently written in their press releases too.

Breeders challenge is a mare based scheme that replaced the sires stakes some years ago. HRNSW has in part reintroduced the sires stakes in a fashion with the breeders challenge blue series and if you/they want more support for sires standing in NSW then this is the series that needs further support and funding.

Remove the colonial stallion rebate which to me appears to support the colonial stallion owners seting higher fees, encourage them to lower their service fee accordingly, and put the $500 rebate for each foal by a colonial sire into prizemoney for the breeders challenge blue series would be my suggestion.

[alphastud]

The press release can be misleading Dot.

If it’s not a mistake, then this style of marketing can be misleading whether it be commonplace or not.

No condition can apply for a stallion to make progeny NSW bred unless they are a NSW stallion.

NSW stallions such as TINTIN IN AMERICA, SMILING SHARD, LIVE OR DIE etc. make any progeny NSW bred. No conditions need to apply for this to happen. There is a real difference. NSW stallions can influence whether a foal is NSW bred or not. Huntsville and other interstate stallions can’t.

And so that stating that “his progeny will be …. NSW Breeders Challenge , … eligible – conditions apply” can be misleading.

He cannot make Vic based, Qld based etc. progeny NSW bred whereas the NSW Stallions can.

I find the various schemes and rules confusing and think that it’s important to be clearer where we can be.

[Dot]

moved to new thread