The plight of one young trainer

[gumnut]

Thanks Wayne however the bird has flown. Leroy is walking away from the sport for the time being. In his words "its just too hard". Maybe why I am a little emotional about the industry and the way it is heading. I gave my license up for the same reason, however will need to look at getting it back to sort the paddock full of horses out before retiring altogether. Leroy has had a good introduction into the sport working with leading stables. Due to not being a big name in the industry he was not given the driving opportunities he thoroughly deserved in my biased opinion. This led to him not believing in himself as a driver and employing others to complete this chore on many occassions. As for training he trained 13 individual winners last year including the Ararat trotters cup, the home bred Vicbred final for 2 year old fillies and the ladyship in Adelaide. The stable earned over $100000 last year in stakemoney,with bonuse's included. He was over the moon to train his first metropolitan winner, which he also drove, only to have his winners interview cut short by the commentator announcing a protest. One of the stables who like winning everything, (including trials if the recent report regarding Josh Aitken is correct) protested. Thats his right to protest and the stewards right to give Aitken a warning for wasting their time. Little things like this get to me. The stable was not getting a fair go as far as i was concerned so I wrote to the minister of sport, the chairman of stewards and the CEO. In hindsight a silly idea. As far as exposure, we work horse for a little more then what it costs us. All the horses given to the stable to train have had their issues or are poorly bred. We introduce many owners to this sport. The owners are then poached by leading stables and the owners drift away. We purchased a horse at the Shepparton sale intending to sell shares. We avertised the horses shares on facebook only to receive a phone call from a HRV representative telling Leroy to take down the post as he does not have a license to syndicate horses. We were not syndicating as such, just looking for partners. As I said; "its just too hard". - anyone want to buy a horse.

[Danno]

Thanks Wayne however the bird has flown. Leroy is walking away from the sport for the time being. In his words "its just too hard". Maybe why I am a little emotional about the industry and the way it is heading. I gave my license up for the same reason, however will need to look at getting it back to sort the paddock full of horses out before retiring altogether. Leroy has had a good introduction into the sport working with leading stables. Due to not being a big name in the industry he was not given the driving opportunities he thoroughly deserved in my biased opinion. This led to him not believing in himself as a driver and employing others to complete this chore on many occassions. As for training he trained 13 individual winners last year including the Ararat trotters cup, the home bred Vicbred final for 2 year old fillies and the ladyship in Adelaide. The stable earned over $100000 last year in stakemoney,with bonuse's included. He was over the moon to train his first metropolitan winner, which he also drove, only to have his winners interview cut short by the commentator announcing a protest. One of the stables who like winning everything, (including trials if the recent report regarding Josh Aitken is correct) protested. Thats his right to protest and the stewards right to give Aitken a warning for wasting their time. Little things like this get to me. The stable was not getting a fair go as far as i was concerned so I wrote to the minister of sport, the chairman of stewards and the CEO. In hindsight a silly idea. As far as exposure, we work horse for a little more then what it costs us. All the horses given to the stable to train have had their issues or are poorly bred. We introduce many owners to this sport. The owners are then poached by leading stables and the owners drift away. We purchased a horse at the Shepparton sale intending to sell shares. We avertised the horses shares on facebook only to receive a phone call from a HRV representative telling Leroy to take down the post as he does not have a license to syndicate horses. We were not syndicating as such, just looking for partners. As I said; "its just too hard". - anyone want to buy a horse.

Unfortunately an all too familiar story, administrators the nation over are, whether willfully or unwittingly running the game for the few rather than for the many and it MUST cease before there are only a handful of stables in each area catering to an ever decreasing pool of owners.

This sport ( and I personally prefer that term over Industry, as it is an industry to fewer participants than it is a sport) should NOT be trying to be a "me too" to the thoroughbreds, it is an entirely different game and was founded by entirely different people trying to do things in an entirely different way catering to an entirely different audience.

When will the revolving door of administrators to our game get this?? when we the participants have a greater say in those appointments,I believe. There have been scant few who know what goes on at the grassroots level, and those that have more often than not have carried out their duties with sufficient diligence to adequately represent the majority of participants who call this game a "sport"

The game needs every single active participant to continue, but we are chasing good people away in the droves, whilst pandering to the few, as we have done for decades in the breeding side of the game, and where has that got everyone? The game has shrunk and the costs of breeding mean only a few will survive, giving rise to another important aspect of the game being available to the few rather than the many.

Rant over,

Merry Christmas to everyone, hope you and your families have a bonza day tomorrow!!!

[Messenger]

Danny and Dan, your posts are not only interesting but a cause of real concern.
A young man with 13 winners from 40 starters in 16-17 pulls the pin because he is smart enough to see that it is too hard/not profitable

You look at the Vic premiership table (5 months in) and right now anyone out of the top 10 is probably not making enough to warrant a full time commitment
Geoff Webster happens to be 10th and he has collected $131k in stakes (more than 9th placed Peter Manning)

Emma Stewart totally dominates the table with $514k in stakes after 5 months

http://www.harness.org.au/vic-premierships.cfm

[Hermione]

I found gumnut's post incredibly sad, the sport can ill-afford to lose any participants no matter where they are on the ladder, from breeders who provide the product, up to the punter who I am told is just as critical? Gumnut's story could easily have been penned in New Zealand so the problems seem widespread, maybe in 2018 someone will find a way to turn everything around. I have just been reading an article re Trump's holiday/Christmas about-turns over the years, he appears to brazen his way through it all, maybe we should take a leaf out of his book? Keep repeating loudly 'the industry is doing great', drown out the naysayers, people will flock/trickle to events, slowly become involved and then we'll be back on track? Oh well, it was a pleasant thought,

[KTQ]

I agree Jan. Industry participants being negative cause industry outsiders to be negative.

The industry needs to keep up with the youth by giving them what they want. Just saw a pic of my local Busselton trots on opening night and the crowd is literally half what it normally is. I bet the club has been complacent in driving interest, relying on historical hype to drive numbers. You can't do that. Get the youth interested with live bands, food trucks, warm facilities and seating, and education. Too many old people on the committee stuck in their ways. Don't talk about how it's dying, talk about how we're improving things and do just that

[Messenger]

We understand your point Katie (and it follows on from Jan's) and I know you did not mean this but let's be clear - telling Leroy's story is not being negative. It is an attempt to seek answers - the first step to improving things

[arlington]

Jan and Katie, no criticism intended at all, but considering the intent of the original, Eastman thread, that is, the exposé of those who damage the image of the sport - wouldn't we, in the sport, be supportive of drowning them out of the sport quicker than we have previously?
However, what strikes me with the news articles regarding the Court case is none of the horses returned positive swabs and just as alarming is this from the Herald Sun 21 December 2017, On December 8, 2014, Eastman is alleged to “corrupted the betting outcome” of a race at Charlton when he drenched Waterslide on race day “knowing the conduct would corrupt the betting outcome of the event.”
Two things just from that small segment of the reporting of the case, one being - considering the number of positive TCO2's we get it's not hard to wonder the magnitude of those that go undetected. That's if we're talking about drenching/ tubing with alkalising agents, the article doesn't specify. And the second thing being the police are of the opinion stomach tubing outside the rules is a corrupt act, warranting a police charge.

Am I a doomsayer, more so glass half empty thinker at the moment, to think stomach tubing to corrupt the result of a race would probably be linked to TCO2 in most cases but our TCO2 penalties are insufficient...at least certainly not inline with the police's thoughts (community expectations?) on it?

Once again, it's not clear if the tubing/drenching involves non detection of TCO2 breaches but, irrespective, wouldn't a follower of the sport, a news paper reader, a $1 punter be concerned police charges, a conviction, could result in jail time (up to 10 years?) but harness racing penalties, some might think, are very lenient in comparison?

[David Martin]

Hi everyone,


I'm also reading this trail with sadness, as we want to encourage young people to our sport. In regards to syndications, effective 1 July 2018, ASIC increased their requirements for all states for syndications. That has meant that HRV (as the lead regulator) has had to raise requirements for anyone advertising for people to join a syndicate. There are alternative approaches and I would suggest that anyone considering a syndicate to talk to HRV (Tori Glenister or John Briffa).


Hi Danny O'Brien, I would like to understand the sentence, 'The stable was not getting a fair go as far as i was concerned so I wrote to the minister of sport, the chairman of stewards and the CEO. In hindsight a silly idea.' I have no recollection of that correspondence, so can only assume that it occurred prior to Jan 2017? In any case, I'm happy for you to contact me directly if there are any ongoing concerns. In regards to the syndication, can I suggest that you/Leroy give John Briffa a call? If there are other factors influencing Leroy's decision, then I would be pleased to hear them because as I said, we want to lower the barriers to entry for young people.


Cheers, David

[Mighty Atom]

I agree Jan. Industry participants being negative cause industry outsiders to be negative.

The industry needs to keep up with the youth by giving them what they want. Just saw a pic of my local Busselton trots on opening night and the crowd is literally half what it normally is. I bet the club has been complacent in driving interest, relying on historical hype to drive numbers. You can't do that. Get the youth interested with live bands, food trucks, warm facilities and seating, and education. Too many old people on the committee stuck in their ways. Don't talk about how it's dying, talk about how we're improving things and do just that


Katie, this has all been tried before at GP, live bands; entertainment areas for kids; any excuse for a fireworks display. The problem is that the young people will show far more interest in the live bands than horses in carts running around the track. Years ago, when I was a teen attending GP the crowds were enormous, understandable, as there was little night time entertainment available but I think it was more than that I believe the patrons were genuinely interested in harness racing. If we really have to rely on other forms of entertainment to get people to the track then the sport is in big trouble.

Harness racing is thriving in one state only - WA and that's despite the downturn in attendance. New South Wales and Victoria appear to be okay the other states are on a slippery slide to oblivion.

[gumnut]

Hi David. The letter was written prior to your appointment. The letter was written to the integrity dept and not the Chairman of Stewards. As I mentioned earlier, minister of sport and the then CEO was given a copy. Mr Anderson was the only party who did not reply
The letter was written due to a 2 yr old trotter, Crown Dream continually being banned, either stood down or disqualified. I would email you a copy but I can’t find it.
We as a stable continued to suffer undue treatment. Leroy tried time and time again to get his A grade trainers license only to be continually denied. Leroy bought this up with David Martin when David took the time out to come up and introduce himself after Cown Dream won the Ararat trotted cup. With David ‘s support he was granted the license upgrade the following week.
This last month has been difficult. He gained a drive for the Kerryn Manning stable, only to face the banter of a HRV employee telling him he does not belong in those colors.
Take the Bendigo race that Imprincessgemma won recently. Maybe she was not meant to win but we are not in the loop and rarely bet. Clearly the best horse in the race. Wins and pays over $8.00. We had 2 in the race. Imprincessgemma flies the gate and we knew she would lead. Our other horse drew 1. Made sense to get the sit behind the good horse but the stewards wanted to know why. The driver who also wanted the sit was not questioned into why he drove his horse so vigorously. Could not prove what they thought but told Leroy the horse will be swabbed again in 2 hours. One week later Imprincessgemma is leading again, pressure applied by a leading driver at the bell, his horse drops out, nothing said.
David, little things like this do get to people. All anyone can ask for is a level playing field.
Just a story regarding HRV promoting their favourites, mainly Melton or Shepparton trainers and drivers. Leroy coached the Western Division of the Charity football day. He was on apprentice wages. He hired a bus, drove however he could get to the footy and in some cases owed these people a favor. Every year the same junior drivers were seen promoting the day. Leroy got nothing out of the day except pride in being able to help the kids the charity was for.
For those interested, Leroy is off to Katherine plumbing. He will return to harness racing as he has an unremitting love for horses. Also it seems we have a CEO who listens and may well understand that the raceapacer program should be supporting young trainers who are struggling to get a break. For the record Crown Dream will race in Zac Steenhouse, (wrong spelling), colors along with a nice CUF gelding.

[allanjg]

and 2....sorry danny,but your initials ar`nt e.m. or c.a. and a few more.i would like to add but you have covered it all.

[Amlin]

Of course there are other issues affecting young people becoming involved in the sport.

Out here we put numerous young people through trainer, driver and stablehand courses each year. Some will never become trainers, but those who might like to face what I see as a challenge once they leave the college.

Property prices are prohibitive, and the lack of dedicated training facilities is a real issue. While there might be a box or two on course, there is no jog track and the main track has limited availability due to regular greyhound activity.

It might not be a big issue in the overall industry in Victoria but I have evidence it has cost us people from continuing on down the path of becoming a hobby trainer. This is before we even raise the subject of less and less local racing product year on year. People with work committments are not interested in basing at Cranbourne, but a community stable at Warragul or further east would increase horse numbers in the region.

If this scenario affected a dozen people here, and was repeated three or four times across the state, it starts to make a big impact on the base of the pyramid.

PS there are over 60 individual Gippsland based greyhound trainers competing at the Traralgon meeting tomorrow night!

[Messenger]

I am really embarrassed now as I have just read the article on Leroy and the team's greatest success

http://www.harnesslink.com/News/A-1-000-purchase-wins-50-000-race?highlight=Leroy%20O%27Brien

and realized I had read it before - the references to mum sort of stick in one's mind LOL

That was less than 7 months ago so just call me Alzheimers Kev

[David Martin]

Thanks for posting that story Kevin. It rings a bell with me too now, and it's pleasing that HRV's Cody wrote the story about Leroy's success in May 2017 that was picked up by Harness Link. A quick search also identified a RSN 'Gait Speed' interview with HRV personnel and Leroy on 25 Oct 2016 in which he discusses Crown Dream's win at Melton. I hope that once he's finishing plumbing work in Katherine that Leroy will come back to harness racing in Vic.


I'd also like to comment on the view that HRV apply favourable treatment to certain people (e.g 'c.a.'). I can't speak for what may or may not have happened prior to 2017, but I do know that in the last 12 months we have sought to apply the level playing field approach that we all want. At times we are also criticised for not cutting through to mainstream media, and that's one way where we will work with more well known names such as Chris Alford (e.g. his 6000 winners, etc.). Unfortunately, some may see that as favourable treatment, when in reality it's all about getting mainstream coverage and recognition for our sport.


The other aspect worth sharing is the fact that HRV's Marketing and Communications team is quite small, particularly when compared to other codes in Victoria. That means they are not always going to identify or be able to cover every story that the industry would like us to report on. Can I request that if people have a story that they feel should be told about someone they know, then please work with HRV by making contact with Cody or Michael.


Thanks, David

[Hermione]

HRV would seem to be very lucky in procuring your services, I like the fact that you appear ready and able to engage with the rank and file within the industry. My very wise mother-in-law used to say 'paper never refused ink yet' so will watch with interest any developments in Victoria and then perhaps start a petition to get you to swim across the ditch and stem the slide here?

[Messenger]

HRV would seem to be very lucky in procuring your services, I like the fact that you appear ready and able to engage with the rank and file within the industry. My very wise mother-in-law used to say 'paper never refused ink yet' so will watch with interest any developments in Victoria and then perhaps start a petition to get you to swim across the ditch and stem the slide here?

I totally agree Jan. It makes sense to engage with the rank and file and a forum such as this is a fairly easy way to do so and yet few have.

We have had input from Vic's Cody Winnell for 3 years while NSW's Adam Fairly was a good contributor between 2011-14 but then not only stopped dead but strangely deleted virtually all his posts
The (ex) NSW Chairman of Stewards is/was a reader as he sometimes clarified things via email to me

Issues discussed can sometimes be controversial but our aim is to make the forum an enjoyable place for people who love harness racing

[David Martin]

Thanks Jan,


Nice to hear from you in NZ. I always enjoy visiting there, having seen Christchurch for the NZ Cup recently, and prior work visits to Wellington and even a 3 month stint based in Auckland. Lovely part of the world.


To this role and others before it, I take the view that everyone I interact with has skills and knowledge that I don't have, and I hopefully bring some complimentary skills/knowlege that will be of value to the organisation/industry. That makes it easy to be genuine when I say, 'we're all in this together'. Most of the improvements we've made in the last year have occurred as a result of listening to the industry, then quickly testing and implementing ideas. Some haven't worked, but many more have and that's contributed to an improved performance in recent months. I summarised this in the recent Notice to Industry: http://www.hrv.org.au/general/from-the-ceos-desk/


Happy to hear your views too!


Cheers, David

[gumnut]

Thanks David for your reply.
Even though you addressed little that has been raised at least you tried. What you added is well and good but what is your board going to do about the mounting concerns from the people that have been crying out for a level playing field. I understand that you are having a red hot go but the arsenic shambles, the reduced stakemoney, the continued HRV support for the limited few, professional drivers driving totally poorly and seemingly continued boat races have been occurring under your watch. I know it is easy to jump on the high moral ground but if you systematically addressed each and every of the concerns I raised on this forum the confidence in HRV would be immeasurably, why, because for once in my lifetime HRV would be displaying a value they promote, transparency. I am on holidays at present and I will phone you when I get home but please inform this forum of any progress.
Thank you

[Fan of Jate]

I am also one who does not like issues being "glossed over" with waffle. These issues don't get fixed because authorities wont act with any certitude because it takes courage, They are great at quoting betting figures and how may races at certain prizemoney are scheduled for which meetings but that is about it from where I sit. I am not sure they truly understand the issues that are being mentioned either.

Accountancy/bookkeeping is just looking at spreadsheets, blind Freddy can do that. It solves none of the issues that are generally being raised by participants. I have hardly seen a post in any forum or any discussion I have had at the races where a trainer/owner or driver brings up online betting or any other statistical data relating to that as an issue that concerns them or their capacity to race, but betting seems to be the be all and end all of any administrators input. Part of this post can also be applied to another thread regarding tiered racing.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

[David Martin]

Hi Danny,


Not sure if you attended any of the public forums earlier this year, but if you had, I think you will have seen a level of transparency not previously displayed. From day one, I have made myself available at tracks across the state, and on forums such as this to respond to issues, criticism, etc., in order to provide transparency and engage industry participants. In regards to stakemoney, the fact is that HRV has increased stakemoney to exceed $40m in 2017/18, and at the end of October, HRV had paid out $700k more than at the same time last year. In Sept/Oct, HRV introduced a $750 winners bonus only applicable for $3500 and $5000 races, which are more heavily won by non-professional trainers/drivers compared to higher stakes races. We have programmed races purely for trainers with 2 or less wins in the prior season, and 2.02 mile rate races for slower/older horses to give them and their connections a chance to win. All initiatives aimed to level the playing field.


In regards to your points about integrity matters, we sought and obtained government support for a $3.1m injection of funding over two years so that we could increase post race swabs, veterinarians, stewards, invetigative officers, etc. Prior to my arrival, the Board had already commenced this journey and various matters before the courts are reflective of this increased focus. If you or others have specific information, then I would encourage you to report that via methods available as state on this weblink: http://www.hrv.org.au/integrity/report-suspicious-activity/


Happy to hear from you when you're back from holidays to address any matters you feel haven't been fully addressed here.


Kind Regards,
David

[David Martin]

Hi Pat,


To be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to your comment. You don't want waffle, but also don't want statistics/facts to respond to matters raised. The reality is that without an improvement in wagering, then the previous declining trend of our industry would just continue. We needed to stop that decline and ensure the industry has revenue to invest in the areas everyone knows are important (stakemoney, integrity, etc., etc.).


So to be constructive, maybe you can expand on your statement in regards to authorities not understanding the issues with some examples and specifics that I can respond to.


Thanks, David

[Messenger]

I noticed that the AllStars stable won 7 out of 9 races on the Auckland 12 race program yesterday including the 3 biggest ones

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/results/123102rs.htm

It made me wonder how the NZ trainers are faring so using their excellent site I ordered their trainers premiership according to stakes (I am not sure if if it included yesterday - their site is so good it would not surprise me)

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/premierships/tpship.htm#

We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria

Even though Emma Stewart dominates our VIC premiership table, it is not anywhere near the extent of the AllStars domination and yet I doubt if we have over 20 trainers who have earned in excess of $100k. For Vic Peter Manning is 9th on the HRV premiership table and has only won $120k so it would be surprising if we had 26 trainers over $100k even in a months time (The Vic premiership table is the best I can do without going to a lot of trouble as we still cannot sort the HRA's Trainers Chronicles by prizemoney or state)

http://www.harness.org.au/vic-premierships.cfm

It is interesting to also look at HRA's top 20 (which CAN be sorted by prizemoney)
In the Top 19 (leaving out Mark Purdon NZ who is numero uno!)
To my surprise we have

6 New South Welshmen
5 Queenslanders
4 Vics
3 Westies
1 Taswegian

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/top20/index.cfm/trainers/default/sort/stakes/seasonId/501?d=01012018

[arlington]

I noticed that the AllStars stable won 7 out of 9 races on the Auckland 12 race program yesterday including the 3 biggest ones

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/results/123102rs.htm

It made me wonder how the NZ trainers are faring so using their excellent site I ordered their trainers premiership according to stakes (I am not sure if if it included yesterday - their site is so good it would not surprise me)

https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/premierships/tpship.htm#

We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria

Even though Emma Stewart dominates our VIC premiership table, it is not anywhere near the extent of the AllStars domination and yet I doubt if we have over 20 trainers who have earned in excess of $100k. For Vic Peter Manning is 9th on the HRV premiership table and has only won $120k so it would be surprising if we had 26 trainers over $100k even in a months time (The Vic premiership table is the best I can do without going to a lot of trouble as we still cannot sort the HRA's Trainers Chronicles by prizemoney or state)

http://www.harness.org.au/vic-premierships.cfm

It is interesting to also look at HRA's top 20 (which CAN be sorted by prizemoney)
In the Top 19 (leaving out Mark Purdon NZ who is numero uno!)
To my surprise we have

6 New South Welshmen
5 Queenslanders
4 Vics
3 Westies
1 Taswegian

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/top20/index.cfm/trainers/default/sort/stakes/seasonId/501?d=01012018


Not sure where you're going with this one Kev. Owners don't like paying training fees whilst waiting for our bigger races at a later stage of the season?
Total stakes distribution for the season Vic $40m v NZ $30m.

[arlington]

Hi Danny,


Not sure if you attended any of the public forums earlier this year, but if you had, I think you will have seen a level of transparency not previously displayed. From day one, I have made myself available at tracks across the state, and on forums such as this to respond to issues, criticism, etc., in order to provide transparency and engage industry participants. In regards to stakemoney, the fact is that HRV has increased stakemoney to exceed $40m in 2017/18, and at the end of October, HRV had paid out $700k more than at the same time last year. In Sept/Oct, HRV introduced a $750 winners bonus only applicable for $3500 and $5000 races, which are more heavily won by non-professional trainers/drivers compared to higher stakes races. We have programmed races purely for trainers with 2 or less wins in the prior season, and 2.02 mile rate races for slower/older horses to give them and their connections a chance to win. All initiatives aimed to level the playing field.


In regards to your points about integrity matters, we sought and obtained government support for a $3.1m injection of funding over two years so that we could increase post race swabs, veterinarians, stewards, invetigative officers, etc. Prior to my arrival, the Board had already commenced this journey and various matters before the courts are reflective of this increased focus. If you or others have specific information, then I would encourage you to report that via methods available as state on this weblink: http://www.hrv.org.au/integrity/report-suspicious-activity/


Happy to hear from you when you're back from holidays to address any matters you feel haven't been fully addressed here.


Kind Regards,
David


Hi David,

Just on 12 months in the position, I'm one who has been encouraged by your appointment and transparency. In my opinion, poles apart from the previous CEO. Seems as though you are still copping the big hangover of mistrust under the previous in your baptism of fire.

Regarding integrity matters:
- The Paul Bittar report. Where it's implementation is at and your thoughts on the recommendations?
- The $3.1m injection is significant. In part a result of the Monteath audit that astonishingly disclosed swabs had dropped by 45% under the previous CEO along with very minimal out of comp testing. I believe the previous CEO wasn't for the Bittar report. If (quite possibly inevitable) the Bittar recommendations are adopted by the racing industry would HRV still have an Integrity Council? Could you clarify it's role as it stands now please?

Some thoughts on the increase in integrity, the $3.1m etc. it's great to catch those, no question, but penalties aren't reflective of the impetus.


Cheers, Wayne

[David Martin]

Thanks Wayne,


Yes, almost 12 months. Jan 9 was the official start date, but Dale Monteith and I attended the Horsham Cup on Jan 8. It has been a busy year, with lots to address in almost every area of the industry. With revenue and market share falling as quickly as they were, that was one of the highest priorities, as without it, the ability to fix other things is severely limited. We've been open about that challenge and what we've done to address it, with improvement already evident, but still a long way to go.


In regards to the outcome of the Bittar report, we (all 3 codes) are awaiting the outcome from the Minister for Racing's review and consideration of the Bittar Report. I do note some comment was made about this recently, so we are likely to hear something in the not too distant future. https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead (https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead)


More broadly, I agree that punishments need to fit the crime. In some cases our system is overly tough on misdemeanours, yet not tough enough on more serious offences. We are looking at this in parallel with outcomes from the Bittar Report.


In regards to trust, I think the old saying is 'hard fought and easily lost'. Hopefully people will see that we're listening, being open about our challenges and solutions, and working with the industry to turn things around. If people have questions, then as you have done, they should feel free to ask them and to contibute constructive suggestions for how we can further improve.


Cheers, David

[Messenger]

Not sure where you're going with this one Kev. Owners don't like paying training fees whilst waiting for our bigger races at a later stage of the season?
Total stakes distribution for the season Vic $40m v NZ $30m.

The comparison between NZ and VIC was a quick look at 'the plight of trainers in general'

If I was being simplistic, it seems to me that a full time trainer would want to be making near on $100k to be considered successful and getting a fair return for hours worked
You would hope training fees are always going to be their main source of income but you never know what some arrangements are nowadays
If a trainer is going to be successful in the long term ie retain owners, then owners cannot be too much out of pocket. So ideally a trainers horses' prizemoney need to match his training bills so that owners are getting 85% of their money back (after Trainer and driver take)
If a trainer wins $200k in a year he could justify $200k of training fees.
He only gets $20k of the prizemoney and I figure more than half of the training fees/bills are expenses
So, being very simplistic I question: "If a trainer is not winning $200k a year - does he have a long term future as a full time trainer?"

We know that only 1% of people make money out of horse ownership so I guess what really happens is that you need a rotation of new owners to replace the old owners who wish to stop losing (This is why there has to be a lot more to horse ownership than profit)
No doubt Syndicates are the way forward because a small investment/loss is what more people are happy to wear

[Fan of Jate]

A pretty good comparison Kev, especially as NZ harness racing is apparently in peril, I am not sure why because most of them are over here. Maybe it is the fact that M.Purdon and co are winning most of biggest NZ races but then again that stable wins a shedful over here as well. The "plight of a trainer" thread can quite easily be changed to "the plight of an owner" then we can really see who are the winners and losers.

[arlington]

Thanks Wayne,

Yes, almost 12 months. Jan 9 was the official start date, but Dale Monteith and I attended the Horsham Cup on Jan 8. It has been a busy year, with lots to address in almost every area of the industry. With revenue and market share falling as quickly as they were, that was one of the highest priorities, as without it, the ability to fix other things is severely limited. We've been open about that challenge and what we've done to address it, with improvement already evident, but still a long way to go.

In regards to the outcome of the Bittar report, we (all 3 codes) are awaiting the outcome from the Minister for Racing's review and consideration of the Bittar Report. I do note some comment was made about this recently, so we are likely to hear something in the not too distant future. https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead (https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead)

More broadly, I agree that punishments need to fit the crime. In some cases our system is overly tough on misdemeanours, yet not tough enough on more serious offences. We are looking at this in parallel with outcomes from the Bittar Report.

In regards to trust, I think the old saying is 'hard fought and easily lost'. Hopefully people will see that we're listening, being open about our challenges and solutions, and working with the industry to turn things around. If people have questions, then as you have done, they should feel free to ask them and to contibute constructive suggestions for how we can further improve.


Cheers, David


Thanks for the Mr Pakula Bittar update link David.

From the link -

"Bittar recommended the establishment of the Victorian Racing Integrity Unit, which would encapsulate thoroughbred, harness and greyhound racing, as well as restructuring of the appeal process with a single cross-code Racing Appeals and Disciplinary Board that would eliminate appeals being heard at the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

Just a personal observation - whilst realising implementing a cross code Appeals and Disciplinary Board has great complexities, I can't see eliminating VCAT is a bad thing at all.

edit - considering the police charges in Vic of late, personally I'm not totally supportive of a harness participant having a jail sentence hanging over their head. I wish the sport could handle their own whilst being able to acknowledge the significance of even a 50 cent punter deserving a fair go for their investment. But the sport seems limited in it's rights to do so. Participants obviously need to be aware of the severity the community, governments, hence police have now placed on corruption in sport, remembering racing/punting is a revenue raiser for the government.

On eliminating VCAT, sure participants should have an avenue for appeal but, as an example, when you think about on one hand you have police charges against participants for race day treatments/tubing but on the other hand you have participants going to VCAT to have a fine or suspension reduced for similar, seems poles apart, a mix match of the justice process. Police charges circumnavigate VCAT to some extent(?) Obviously I'm not a lawyer.

end of ramble

[teecee]

We have independent cross code integrity (RIU) and judiciary (JCA) organisations. All integrity issues are handled by them right through to the appeal process.
In my view both work extremely well.

[strong persuader]

Unfortunately an all too familiar story, administrators the nation over are, whether willfully or unwittingly running the game for the few rather than for the many and it MUST cease before there are only a handful of stables in each area catering to an ever decreasing pool of owners.

This sport ( and I personally prefer that term over Industry, as it is an industry to fewer participants than it is a sport) should NOT be trying to be a "me too" to the thoroughbreds, it is an entirely different game and was founded by entirely different people trying to do things in an entirely different way catering to an entirely different audience.

When will the revolving door of administrators to our game get this?? when we the participants have a greater say in those appointments,I believe. There have been scant few who know what goes on at the grassroots level, and those that have more often than not have carried out their duties with sufficient diligence to adequately represent the majority of participants who call this game a "sport"

The game needs every single active participant to continue, but we are chasing good people away in the droves, whilst pandering to the few, as we have done for decades in the breeding side of the game, and where has that got everyone? The game has shrunk and the costs of breeding mean only a few will survive, giving rise to another important aspect of the game being available to the few rather than the many.

Rant over,

Merry Christmas to everyone, hope you and your families have a bonza day tomorrow!!!
Been busy and a little slack lately, not having visited for a while. But Danno, if you ever run for a position on any industry board, I'd love to assist your campaign in any way I can.
You are speaking words I hear in some form at nearly every trot meeting I go to where the 'little' folk still appear. Unfortunately, they seem to fall on deaf ears at higher levels :(

[Messenger]

Leroy is back

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SW141018&fromstate=vic#SWC14101807

[gutwagon]

Great to see Leroy back. I do personally know Danny and Leroy and wish them all the best.
Personally I don't think that the playing field has got any leveler . I actually think the industry has gone down hill further in the last 12 months. Just my opinion. Is it just me or do others feel the same ? I do think we are heading in the right direction in some areas but we are yet to see any results.

[Messenger]

Doing very well



They are Stewart stable percentages

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/O-Briens-making-their-own-luck

[Messenger]

Despite the above, I have been told that Leroy has a lot of horses for sale - are we losing him again?

[aussiebreno]

Bump Kev

[KTQ]

Anyone who knows him tell him to move to WA and work for us

[Showgrounds]

Anyone who knows him tell him to move to WA and work for us

He's busy working on the chain gang Katie. https://integrity.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/vrt-hearing-leroy-obrien/

[Messenger]

Bump Kev

Yes Breno, I could have put my stewards post in here.
I never did find out why he was selling a lot of horses - it was a year before this race that has got him into trouble
(Maybe just spring cleaning)

[Messenger]

Leroy has three in the 2yo at Melton on Saturday night

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX180323#MXM18032308

If you click on Leroy's name you can go to Career Stats and find nothing for 18/19 season - his best season! This is because he trained in partnership with his father Danny and HRA stats obviously cannot handle including them in his stats - just another shortcoming of HRA as our record keeper

[aussiebreno]

Leroy has three in the 2yo at Melton on Saturday night

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX180323#MXM18032308

If you click on Leroy's name you can go to Career Stats and find nothing for 18/19 season - his best season! This is because he trained in partnership with his father Danny and HRA stats obviously cannot handle including them in his stats - just another shortcoming of HRA as our record keeper

Not that I know much about website coding but I would expect the code to be fairly complicated for that.

Also, should they be counted as individual stats? This list isn't even reliant on code its just someone doing a tally. http://www.australianracingrecords.com.au/index.asp?f=alltime-trainers
They have Cummings, Waterhouse, Hayes, Hawkes, Freedman etc seperated.

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/trainers/l-m-obrien-d-m-obrien/

[Messenger]

Whether individual or not, they are pretty relevant to somebody looking up Leroy's career stats. I know nothing about coding but would think the addition of a 'see also' would not be difficult

[aussiebreno]

Whether individual or not, they are pretty relevant to somebody looking up Leroy's career stats. I know nothing about coding but would think the addition of a 'see also' would not be difficult

Yeah, see also could be the answer.