Swab's

[Greg Hando]

When is HRNSW going to scrub these people out for pos swab's let's clean our industry up for good we don't need dishonest people in our game

[triplev123]

What I find really intriguing is that despite the infinite range of modern substances that could be employed by the do no good-ers in order to enhance a horse's performance, clearly good old Arm & Hammer http://ourlittlepickle.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ah-baking-soda.jpgis hanging around like a much disliked Mother-In-Law.

[David Summers]

I've never been able to get some sort of definitive answer in what this can do for a horse's performance. How does it effect the horse exactly?

Naturally no-one reading this would have any personal experience but I would be interested why anyone would consider using this and risk their whole career and reputation by trying to cheat just to make a few extra bucks.

[Flashing Red]

I'm no expert on this and will happily stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that it reduces the amount of lactic acid and also delays the onset of lactic acid during a race. That is why it appears to make horses "stronger" - they don't get fatigued as quick as what they normally would. This would then allow them to be competitive against a better quality of horse too.

That is why I feel 1.5 hour post race TC02s are so important. After a race, a horse's TC02 will drop, however if administered bicarb, that level will keep rising until it is above the allowable threshold (37 mmol maybe? I'm not sure off the top of my head). Menangle's minimum 2 hour arrival on course will help stop trainers giving their horses bicarb before the race, the theory is if given close enough one will be below the threshold straight after the race. That is when the post race 1.5 hour TC02 tests stop these people in their tracks. The extra 1.5 hours gives the TC02 time to rise if bicarb etc was given. I think the winner and 1 random horse in each race should be post race TC02ed like in America. The random test is also needed - not knowing when you will be tested is just as effective as knowing you will ALWAYS be tested, but cheaper.

Just my 0.02 cents, anyway :)

[triplev123]

It's an acid buffer & a very effective one, delays the onset of muscle fatigue as a result of lactic acid build up.
Can be somewhat hit & miss however because it can work really well on some horses while having virutally no apparent influence on others.
20-25 years ago or so I reckon that it was really rife here in Sydney...and if you watched them closely you could pretty accurately spot what I used to refer to as 'Bi-carb' efforts.
Used to be on for young & old over the 11 & 3/4 furlongs. Horses from certain stables would leave pretty hard to make the front, back it off for a peice in the first quarter and commence to roll through reasonably fast middle sectionals come middle 600m or so. Around about half way through the 3rd quarter they'd look to be off the bit & plugging, for all the world like they were going to be swamped...but they'd somehow keep on rolling on the lead at around the same speed and they'd hold off the rest of the field. Deep in the stretch...and quite clearly despite the Hand of God not having appeared from above to intervene before the Chiko Roll sign was reached...somehow they'd still be there, off the bit and slogging away and they'd often end up winning.
I could have worn a few horses racing that way, indeed some of them naturally do so...but when a host of previously not so brave to verging on speed rats changed stables & started damned near Pure Steel-ing it from 3 furlongs out...I remember that they raised more than a few eyebrows at the time. Good old Arm & Hammer. Allows some horses to maintain their top speed for longer and keeps your fridge smelling fresh too.

[doubled123]

flash/triple v words are all spot on

i'd like to see some stables kept back 4 hours after they race as well, theory behind this - when bicarbing they will have done it previously not at the races and drawn blood, got it tc02 tested themselves and thus know exactly the amount and timing required to get the maximum results without giving a positive..probably still getting 35...what this doesnt cover is how high it will be several hours after the race...hence if they are bicarbing they will be caught 100% this way

triple v..its cheap, easy to use, everyone knows how to tube, gets very good results, minimal adverse affects, allowed to have it in your stables, no chance of a residual swab weeks later and usually very weak penalties = bicarb the perfect performance enhancer for a speedy squib

good to see they are finally testing these people, no accident they've caught 6 horses in 3 weeks

[mightymo]

If a horse has been given bi carb, will it show up in pre race testing or only post race, or both?

[Greg Hando]

Flashing said
I'm no expert on this and will happily stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that it reduces the amount of lactic acid and also delays the onset of lactic acid during a race. That is why it appears to make horses "stronger" - they don't get fatigued as quick as what they normally would. This would then allow them to be competitive against a better quality of horse too.

What Flashing said is true and correct

Edited due to request from HRNSW

[Greg Hando]

If a horse has been given bi carb, will it show up in pre race testing or only post race, or both?

Pre race as long as urine sample is tested i am lead to believe it show's up only in urine samples but stand to be corrected on that one

[Flashing Red]

If a horse has been given bi carb, will it show up in pre race testing or only post race, or both?

If they give it close enough to the race, it will not show (or more correctly, they won't get a reading above the threshold) before the race. Post race TC02 tests -and not immediate post race, must be 1.5 - 2 hours post race - is what stops the practice. Rules requiring horses to be on course at least 2 hours before the race obviously sets back when a horse can be given bicarb and thus allows the level to rise before the pre race TC02. While this may be effective against someone who has to travel, people living in close proximity to a track that uses this strategy - well it wouldn't affect them as much as they do not have to factor in traveling time.

[Flashing Red]

Pre race as long as urine sample is tested i am lead to believe it show's up only in urine samples but stand to be corrected on that one

I think it is blood tests that test for the TC02, not the urine tests? Although I am not sure either.

[Greg Hando]

Not sure either Flashing i alway's thought it was urine post race as all horses are not blood tested post race

[doubled123]

pre race blood tests are for tco2, the stewards know exactly who is doing it before a positive is produced, hence the swiftness in which they got these positives.. these blokes horses would be showing up repeatedly high levels but being just under the 36 threshold - just a matter of time and cunningness to catch them... the 2 hour arrival at menangle is to stop people drenching them an hour before the race (pretty much perfect timing to get away with it), especially the people who live close to the track

i'd like to see all tco2 results made public, if not at least public to every owner of that horse - at least then the owner can say no i think something is going on here im leaving or they can stay and cannot plead ignorance when a positive occurs

urine is for other banned substances

[Flashing Red]

Not sure either Flashing i alway's thought it was urine post race as all horses are not blood tested post race

I do know 100% that pre and post race blood tests are for TC02. I have always been under the impression that TC02 reading is not given with post race urine, not sure where I got that impression from (or even if it is correct) but I am sure I can either find out or someone else on this forum will know definitively. :) Either way, 1.5 hour - 2 hour post race TC02 nips all this in the bud, regardless. Especially since the TC02 level will drop immediately following a race (hence TC02 swabs immediately after the race are not as effective as ones 2 hours after etc). :)

I was completely unaware that there were high TC02 readings in NSW recently, have been pretty swamped with work. Just want to make sure that my comments are taken to be in general, rather than directed at any person or state. I have voiced a number of times my support for post race TC02 testing and applauded tracks such as Menangle requiring 2 hour arrival times. This is not me jumping on some positive swab bandwagon - my views were formed long before this thread :)

[teecee]

In NZ all runners in randomly selected races are pre race blood sampled for TCO2 testing only. All these tests are pre racewhile selected runners from each race are post race tested for a selection of other drugs. All pre race testing is for TCO2 at max 34mml / litre of blood plasma.

[doubled123]

speaking of tco2, someone might find these old videos interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tw2qCTRs0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tMqdt4O0o

[justdoit]

Doubled123 , thank you for posting that.
Part 2 gave the me the most laughs, " I can honestly say" hahahaha

[triplev123]

speaking of tco2, someone might find these old videos interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6tw2qCTRs0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10tMqdt4O0o


[VVV] I've always maintained that the biggest of all Heads Up with that stable back then was the way in which their starters used to have their racetrack arrivals 'staggered'. Normally a Trainer with multiple starters throughout the course of a meeting would bring them all to the track in one lot at or around the same time...but old mate used to bring them over in dribs & drabs & seemingly very much depending on their go forward times. Rather curiously as far as I can recall Roger & Ronny never so much as blinked an eyelid at this rather odd practice. Could never quite work that out. 'tis a funny old world at times eh?

[triplev123]

Pre race as long as urine sample is tested i am lead to believe it show's up only in urine samples but stand to be corrected on that one

[VVV] Blood only Greg. TC02 is a measure of the Total Carbon Dioxide present in and able to be 'liberated' from the plasma section of whole blood, be it venous, arterial or capillary.
It's measured in mmol/L and it has a reportable range along with reference ranges depending on whether it is venous or arterial blood. In this particular instance however capillary is never used when testing TC02 in racehorses & in fact that end of TC02 testing exists for almost exclusive use with sick or infirmed infants, and especially so new borns, where sample volumes are obviously going to be much smaller.
There are a host of factors which can serve to influence TC02 readings including sampling procedures/handling/transport/time elapsed from sample collection to testing, age, fitness level, diet, water intake, sex, given time of day, climate, temperature, underlying disease or genetic disorder, anti-coagulant used in collection tubes & the accuracy of the ASE approved controls which allow for the correct cailbration of testing equipment (currently it's a Beckman ELISE platform/instrument I believe).
One thing that few people may realise is that Blood, being a living thing in itself, will continue to metabolise in the tube post collection until such time as its temperature is dropped to a point where this ceases. Theoretically, as blood obviously requires and so absorbs Oxygen and duly gives of C02, the TC02 level in an incorrectly handled sample could 'increase' post collection. I'll have to run that by Mrs. Triple but I'm pretty sure that is a possibility.

[triplev123]

If a horse has been given bi carb, will it show up in pre race testing or only post race, or both?

Both...however Post Race testing is far more definitive...Pre Race usually only catches the needy, the greedy and the sloppy.

[David Summers]

Just an "off-topic" , triple. Who is the foal in your avatar?

[triplev123]

Just an "off-topic" , triple. Who is the foal in your avatar?


That's a couple of weeks old at the time foal shot of Four Starzzz Shark colt we bred & sold as a yearling back in Feb. of this year. Liked him right from day one & have always expected big things of him. Sometime in the next 6 to 8 months or so I'm set to find out what sort of a judge I am. :D

[David Summers]

Keep us informed triple. If you get any "inside " info that you can divulge , let us in on it , so we can have a small dabble on it.

[Greg Hando]

Both...however Post Race testing is far more definitive...Pre Race usually only catches the needy, the greedy and the sloppy.

Thank's Triple now i know

[Greg Hando]

Laughed when i watched the second of the weigh in 3 driver's whip's checked the other a friendly pat on the shoulder

[doubled123]

greg, the old story always told is that the stewards got sick of being pricked so they stopped checking them

(not hancocks - everyone)

[triplev123]

Keep us informed triple. If you get any "inside " info that you can divulge , let us in on it , so we can have a small dabble on it.

Yeh, I just hope that he goes really, really good for his new owners. The fella who trains him is a really nice bloke. I ring him ever so often for updates on how the colt is going and he's very good with his time. Fingers crossed.

[triplev123]

Laughed when i watched the second of the weigh in 3 driver's whip's checked the other a friendly pat on the shoulder

Pat on the shoulder eh? Must have landed another one for Trotting Tony. :rolleyes:

[triplev123]

Thank's Triple now i know

No worries. It helps when Mrs. Triple is in the field Greg. Straight out of Uni. she started off in a Lab. doing all sorts of pathology work then moved to a job doing Blood Gas analysis with a crew called Chiron (who are no longer around, they got absorbed by some other mob.)
She has moved on many steps since then but while she was still there & this was a fair while ago now, I realised the TC02 Testing equipment she was marketing was doing the very same thing when testing blood samples from humans that the Stewards were doing when testing blood from horses...but obviously callibrated differently and for very different reasons... and it has always been a bit of a hobby horse of mine since then.
Having driven her mad with questions over the years, it is with a little bit better than normal background in and understanding of it in mind that I cannot fathom why we persist with Pre Race TC02 Testing as opposed to Post Race testing. If we continue to require horses to be on-course 2hrs prior and then test them up to 2hrs after a race there is, to my knowledge, no way known that the TC02 testing regime can be beaten. Pre races can no doubt be beaten with more slowly absorbed buffering substances & so on but Post Race tests cannot.

[doubled123]

i always thought pre race was to give a guide to stewards, rather then getting a pre race positive..ie, if the levels pre race are 34 then next starter that stable has keep them behind for the post race... just seems the post race swabs are very infrequent, although i know victoria do it infrequently for the big races and team russo coped the treatment at harold park a while back

[triplev123]

Nah, not as far as I'm aware. IMO it's not an accurate guide because, as I said, depending on the timing and in order to beat it...it is no great stretch of the imagination to suspect the smarties of employing slightly to significantly more slowly absorbed buffers than Arm & Hammer... and they certainly do exist....old mate Sodium Citrate for example.
It's quite true that the 2hrs prior will weed some of that out for sure, however the 2hrs post will weed ALL off that out, without any question. A 1st Year Chemistry Student could construct a buffer solution that would be a pretty fair chance of flying under the radar as far as a pre race TC02 test is concerned.
Post race TC02 testing however, not even the combined knowledge of all the greatest Chemists to have ever lived can roll it.

[remington]

Both...however Post Race testing is far more definitive...Pre Race usually only catches the needy, the greedy and the sloppy.
I believe that this can still be dodge if you give a horse bi carb within 4 hours of a race but the reading will be close to the threshold that the stewards know to nab you for a post race swab. thats my understanding is that right VVV?

[Flashing Red]

Nah, not as far as I'm aware. IMO it's not an accurate guide because, as I said, depending on the timing and in order to beat it...it is no great stretch of the imagination to suspect the smarties of employing slightly to significantly more slowly absorbed buffers than Arm & Hammer... and they certainly do exist....old mate Sodium Citrate for example.
It's quite true that the 2hrs prior will weed some of that out for sure, however the 2hrs post will weed ALL off that out, without any question. A 1st Year Chemistry Student could construct a buffer solution that would be a pretty fair chance of flying under the radar as far as a pre race TC02 test is concerned.
Post race TC02 testing however, not even the combined knowledge of all the greatest Chemists to have ever lived can roll it.

I 100% agree. TC02 positives are just about ancient history in north America now they post race TC02. Why waste funds with pre race TC02 tests when post race 2 hour TC02 is more effective...? Getting to tracks 2 hours before hand and a 2 hour post race TC02 and there wouldn't be a TC02 positive again....

[thesushitrain]

honestly i think tc02 is still the best chance of catching a cheat... flash im sure you remember them catching the n daley for 2 bicarbs, found a fridge full of needles and bottles they couldnt even identitfy

[triplev123]

I 100% agree. TC02 positives are just about ancient history in north America now they post race TC02. Why waste funds with pre race TC02 tests when post race 2 hour TC02 is more effective...? Getting to tracks 2 hours before hand and a 2 hour post race TC02 and there wouldn't be a TC02 positive again....

[VVV] EXACTLY! Currently however the powers that be are either being VERY badly advised or they're working on a prehistoric basis as far as the testing regime is concerned. On course 2hrs prior to a race & 2hrs after for Post Race TC02 and Arm & Hammer will be out of business inside 3 months.
I've been banging on about instituting Post Race TC02 Testing for freaking years & is has continually fallen on deaf ears. I'll bet my Jatz Crackers that few if any of them actually understand the subject at hand.

[Flashing Red]

honestly i think tc02 is still the best chance of catching a cheat...

yes, providing it is post race IMHO :)

[triplev123]

Hey Flashing, when placed in the context of recent unfortunate events events here in NSW the cynic in me quickly comes to the fore & I develop some rather serious concerns over the legitimacy of the well documented historical resistance to Post Race TC02 Testing.
You know, I know, every God damned racing jurisdiction in the USA & CAN knows full well that Pre Race TC02 Testing is an absolute waste of time if you're genuinely seeking to catch those other than just the needy, the greedy and the sloppy. Makes me wonder how long it is going to take for the penny to finally drop here in Oz????
I can basically track this Pre Race Vs Post Race discussion across half a dozen Harness forums (both defunct & live) similar to this and it goes as far back as the middle/end of 1997. You'd think that after 14 years or so someone, somewhere here in Oz would finally get the freaking message huh?

[triplev123]

I believe that this can still be dodge if you give a horse bi carb within 4 hours of a race but the reading will be close to the threshold that the stewards know to nab you for a post race swab. thats my understanding is that right VVV?

At the low-tech end of the spectrum yeh, it is probably fair to say that Remington & as such (to the surprise of nobody who has looked into the subject)...the Pre Race duly picks up the low-tech end of the spectrum...as well as catching, just like I've said before, the needy, the greedy and the sloppy.
The problem is, the smarties with a bit more tech swish to their approach can & I strongly suspect do still manage to skate & they'll continue to do so until such time as the Troops start to aim up with 2hr Post Race TCO2 Testing.
One thing I simply don't understand is that a mandatory on-course 2hrs prior combined with a Post Race TC02 Testing regime would be infinitely easier for the Stewards to administer as well as being infinitely more effective at weeding out the transgressors. Currently the timing aspects to catching TC02 offenders is critical when employing Pre Race testing...but timing is not anywhere near being such an issue when Post Race testing is used.

[thesushitrain]

yes, providing it is post race IMHO :)

yeah thats what i meant.... and they did keep morris' winner behind 2 hours after the race last week at menangle


i'd love to see them start testing hematocrits and make the results public, a few trainers would be having more heart palpitations then their horses

[The Big Mile]

another day, another TC02. Next thing the tea ladies will be taking out licences to fill fields, no one will be left.

Jack O'Shea with the horse Bremansa. Yet again it is another long shot (started $54.80) beaten some way that has thrown up a positive.

It seems strange all these positives from non winners / horses beaten some way in races in the last few weeks.

[ringman]

I remember in the 80s when the NSW trotting club would hand the trainer a letter saying clean up your act or face the music