Sushi Sushi

[ringman]

The best 3yo for decades but will Sushi go on as a 4 or 5 yo ? i have serious doubts sushi will be as dominating or even close to as age gets higher. this could be a classic case of a champion age horse not going on.

[triplev123]

...and should that actually ever come to pass, the problem with it is ????
He has a picket fence now extending to 13 & overall 28 starts for 20, 2 & 5 & over $880,000 banked.
If there is any shame as far as Sushi Sushi is concerned it is not and will never be that he goes on at 4yrs+ or he doesn't...but rather that he is a gelding. :(

[eliteblood]

The best 3yo for decades but will Sushi go on as a 4 or 5 yo ? i have serious doubts sushi will be as dominating or even close to as age gets higher. this could be a classic case of a champion age horse not going on.

Can you elaborate. Why is it that you have doubts about him being a great 4YO and older ?

[triplev123]

Hey Eliteblood...maybe he's just dark on ET's? (another old wive's tale very nicely killed off there btw)

[thesushitrain]

no i think 'theringman' is spot on with this myth

apart from courage under fire, elsu, monkey king, blackie, slipnslide, christian cullen, divisive....


see not a good horse to be found who's been a good horse at 3 and then as an older :p

[ringman]

ok all you have a good laugh lets wait and see if im wrong before the smart remarks come(lol) my reason being is unless sushi grows smartly the bigger horses will grind it into the ground .

[Maorisidol]

Ringman, think of this...
As early 2YO's Royal verdict was beating Sushi, now RV can't get near him.
So who has matured later? Bigger, better? Getting faster? Getting stronger?
Makes sense this horse will be an outstanding 4YO, no doubt about it.
And as for "unless he grows"!!!! Seriously r u saying a small horse can't win good races?

[thesushitrain]

on your sound advice ive gone and put a clydsdale stallion in with the mares..they wont be any good until they're 5 but they will crush horses like sushi into the ground after that lol!

[Village Kid]

No doubt he won't be as dominant in Open company as he currently is now, (unless he's the second coming of Poppy) but you'd think if they kept him to 4 Yr Old Racing next season another string of features awaits. Perhaps another trip over to NZ for the Messenger etc.

For those who know more about horses than I do, (which will be most on here) is there any similarity in stature and confirmation between Sushi Sushi and Captain Joy? Could this be the reason behind any doubts about him as an older horse?

Cheers

[eliteblood]

I expect Sushi to be a star 4YO and a star 5YO and that he will be a very big chance in any race he goes in. He has a secret weapon, ample stamina combined with very high speed. When he reaches grand circuit I expect he will be driven differently. He has the speed to get a position at the start, will enjoy following speed and will be the horse with the big long sprint at the finish.
Sushi is not a one dimensional horse. He doesn't have to lead. In fact, I think he will be even more awesome driven cold.
How can the opposition grind him into the ground if he elects to take a sit ?
He doesn't have to grow - all he has to do is be as good as he is right now - and there will be no stopping the sushi train.

[Don Corleone]

Sushi will be a very very good grand circuit horse. Sushi has all that is required in a top horse, stamina, high cruising speed and no gait problems. Combine that with Sugars as a driver and you have what is needed. I agree with you elite, in that he will even better driven with a sit.

[David Summers]

no i think 'theringman' is spot on with this myth

apart from courage under fire, elsu, monkey king, blackie, slipnslide, christian cullen, divisive....


see not a good horse to be found who's been a good horse at 3 and then as an older :p

Let's not forget the two trotters Lyell Creek and Sundon's Gift. They were both touted to be future stars when they were youngsters , however we know that both turned out to be complete duds in open company and never lived up to their early hype :p

[triplev123]

ok all you have a good laugh lets wait and see if im wrong before the smart remarks come(lol) my reason being is unless sushi grows smartly the bigger horses will grind it into the ground .

[VVV] Geeze ringman. The bigger horses? His size is ALL you can hold against him? Tough audience.
To borrow the sagely words of the late Ken Kelland... "I've never heard so much bullshit in all my life".

[thesushitrain]

hes being set for the miracle mile, huge task ahead for sushi sushi

[Love Of Courage]

ok all you have a good laugh lets wait and see if im wrong before the smart remarks come(lol) my reason being is unless sushi grows smartly the bigger horses will grind it into the ground .

I think people underestimate just how difficult it can be to move to open grade. These horses race the same youngsters at 2 years. Then same horses at three and even four. Then they face different more seasoned horses with different racing styles and of comparable ability. Yet people expect them to keep winning the same % each year.

Courage copped the same rubbish about being small and not being as good as an older horse. Check his record as an older horse, not too bad at all. !

As for needing to grow ! Funny ! The only danger the bigger horses would pose is if they sat on him !

[ringman]

[VVV] Geeze ringman. The bigger horses? His size is ALL you can hold against him? Tough audience.
To borrow the sagely words of the late Ken Kelland... "I've never heard so much bullshit in all my life".
ok lets see who is talking bullshit in time so lets see who is correct !!! the horse will get run into the ground i have no doubt about that when it gets to the top shelf later and i will be laying him no doubt. thats of cousr if he stands up to the pressure of a 4/5 yo

[eliteblood]

hes being set for the miracle mile, huge task ahead for sushi sushi

There are no plans for Sushi to contest this year's Miracle Mile. Instead, he will be concentrating on the major 4YO races. The connections are trying very hard to do the right thing by the horse and bypassed the NSW Derby, Qld Derby, Nursery Pace and Jewels this year because they didn't fit in with the season that they mapped out for him.
Interesting that his dam raced in the Miracle Mile when she was physically 4 1/2 years old and had only had 16 previous lifetime starts.

[justdoit]

Ringman,
What you have posted is a joke? right

I thought so, and anyway to bag a horse like Sushisushi is very bad taste.

[mango]

Sushi Sushi for me will take the next step, time's he run's with little effort is amazing. I think connection's know it's not going to be a cake walk but the horse has been managed right and not flogged at all and i think they realise they will have to drive him different when with the big boy's. I look foward to the day when the speed's on up front with Sushi Sushi having a cold sit on them because i reckon this horse will real off a huge last 1/4.

[triplev123]

ok lets see who is talking bullshit in time so lets see who is correct !!! the horse will get run into the ground i have no doubt about that when it gets to the top shelf later and i will be laying him no doubt. thats of cousr if he stands up to the pressure of a 4/5 yo

[VVV] Well mate, like a certain half baked NZ scribe who, post the first crop of Bettor's Delight selling at the NZ Sales, rather famously stated "he is finished as a commercial sire, though he never really started"...

http://bdb.co.za/shackle/images/egg_on_face.jpg

...you too will end up with a Super Tanker full of Egg on your face.

[Village Kid]

So no comparisons with Captain Joy, who hasn't gone on with it as an older horse to date.

Captain Joy was right at the the top of the tree as a 2 Yr Old but was simply dominant as a 3 Yr Old up until the Breeders Crown. Likewise Sushi Sushi was a very good 2 Yr Old, but has been brilliant this season.

Note this is not knocking of the horse in any way (or Captain Joy for that matter), just interested in others opinions.


Cheers

[Zipper]

Ahh you've got to love the good old Aussie knockers.... Why can't we just appreciate and enjoy a freak of nature rather than plot his potential fall from grace??

Considering Blacks a Fake holds the world record for 2300m at 1.53.8 and Sushi went 1.54.1 as 3yo over that distance in the Breeders Challenge final I'm thinkin he is in pretty good shape to take on open company!!

Size means nothing when it comes to racetrack ability.

[thesushitrain]

captain joy hardly disapointing village kid

hes not in the bracket of ITMQ, feelgood or SU or blackie

but hes certainly in the next tier,

[Village Kid]

As I said I'm not knocking either hores Sushitrain, they've both been wonderful performers but with the imposing record Captain Joy ran up as a juvenile, its fair to say he perhaps hasn't lived up to expectations as a 4 and 5 yr old.

18 from 23 as a 2 and 3 Yr old, including a Breeders Crown and 3 Derbies, then only 2 wins from 22 starts as a 4 and 5 Yr Old. One was a impressive win in an M2-M4 at Menangle, another a Dead Heat at Albion Park. He has run terrific races in defeat, but its still a significant statistical drop off.

Given some physical similarities between the pair, and the fact both improved signficantly from their 2-3 Yr Old campaigns, perhaps thats why there was the question raised about Sushi Sushi's ability to dominate at the next level.

It's not a knock on the horse, more an observation. As I said there are many on here that know more than me, but just wonder if he'll have more success than Captain Joy.



Cheers

[thesushitrain]

i think the fact that sushi went to nz and won the derby there proves hes a class above the rest of the standout juveniles, until you reach CUF

[triplev123]

I find it interesting that Sushi's detractors have not taken into account the fact that BOTH his Sire & his Dam raced very successfully at 4yrs and whilst his Sire was then retired to stud, his dam raced through until she was 6 or 7.... and with around 2/3rds of her career outings seeing her racing against Open Company/FFA & GC horses. For mine, this is a horse that shows no signs whatsoever...be they physical, mental or raw ability wise...of not going on with it at 4yrs+ and his bloodlines do not indicate anything even remotely close to it. Barring illness or injury, I would be stunned if he doesn't end up going at it head to head with another horse that I think will become a Grand Circuit star in short order, Smiling Shard. About 12-18 months ago the same 'he's not big enough for the Grand Circuit' bullshit was bandied about by some people whenever his name was mentioned btw.

[DAZZA]

Sushi will be right ... He wasnt a great 2yo, a very handy one but nothing that we dont see year in year out. Natural progression this season has seen him become a star. Another break and another season of natural progression than look out. Nothing will get near him as a 4yo.

The most defining thing about him that I can see has been his ability to hold his form over a very long period of time (credit must go to connections) and the km's he's covered. Its not easy to do what he did in a VIC Derby than go across to NZ and beat them. Than come back here and pretty much not let anyone get close to him.

There is no point knocking him around as a 4yo. A nice break now which should help him "grow" (if thats what everyone is worried about). He is a special animal, put together perfectly, all the tools to get the job done, size isnt everything. Hes a gelding, hes got 4 or 5 years left of good racing in him. 10-15 starts a year will be plenty. A nice steady 4yo year, a few nice features that he should just win, maybe a trip to NZ which will toughen him up abit than a nice long break this time next year and than he will be ready for the big boys. Smoken Up will be getting old than, the grand circuit will be up grabs. Horses like Sushi, Lanercost, David Hercules will be the ones we are talking about this time next year.

[Gtrain]

I dont beleive anyone on here is detracting from what Sushi has achieved. Only questioning his future. While I am in the clear minority here I agree with ringmans assessment of his future. He will win more races but I doubt his ability to dominate the grand circuit ala Smoken Up, Blackie etc. While his record is impeccable he has raced with blessed barrier draws and charmed runs while his main opposition in hardly a sterling crop of 3yo's, Excel Stride, has been dealt horror draws time after time. Excel Strides effort to get within 7m of him after his run was exceptional. Excel Stride ran him to 2.5m from the 3deep to the chair in the Breeders Challenge so is Excel Stride going to be 2.5m after death seating off the top line GC'ers. Then again opinions are like aholes, everyones got one. Time will tell who's right. My moneys on ringman. Juicy odds by the look of it too.

[Just because]

Sushi Sushi has a tremendous chance of going onto to be successful in open class.

As Triple mentioned he is by a Champion Sire out of a Champion mare. Sabilize won 31 from 54 and raced the best. 2nd and 3rd in the miracle mile, won the Newcastle mile and the Ladyship. The depth on both side of his pedigree will only help him.

He has only had 13 starts this past season and hasn't seem to have been cooked in any of them. At the moment horse/driver/trainer would have more confidence than Muhammed Ali at his prime.

They are a smart crew I believe they will pick the eyes out of the 4yo classics before going on the grand circuit, such as: Nugget, McInerny Ford, the two NZ features, the Chariots. Plenty for him to win and earn in.

Also our open class ranks seem to be thin. Whether it is the proliferation of juvenile racing but not as many horses seem to be going on or emerging out of the blue at 4, 5 or 6.

[thesushitrain]

i think this needs clearing up... for me its not whether he will DOMINATE grand circuit, (blackie if the only horse ive ever see do it).. but its whether he will be a quality GC horse rather then an also ran, ie; in all the finals, winning ID heats, making the miracle mile field...but not necessarily blowing horses off the track every start as it is impossible at that level

[Village Kid]

I find it interesting that Sushi's detractors have not taken into account the fact that BOTH his Sire & his Dam raced very successfully at 4yrs and whilst his Sire was then retired to stud, his dam raced through until she was 6 or 7.... and with around 2/3rds of her career outings seeing her racing against Open Company/FFA & GC horses. For mine, this is a horse that shows no signs whatsoever...be they physical, mental or raw ability wise...of not going on with it at 4yrs+ and his bloodlines do not indicate anything even remotely close to it. Barring illness or injury, I would be stunned if he doesn't end up going at it head to head with another horse that I think will become a Grand Circuit star in short order, Smiling Shard. About 12-18 months ago the same 'he's not big enough for the Grand Circuit' bullshit was bandied about by some people whenever his name was mentioned btw.


Thats exactly what I was after TripleV, some detail around why people think he will kick on/won't kick on, his family history, etc etc.


Thanks mate

[triplev123]

You're welcome VK.

[latemail_cam]

Very interesting topic.

I'm agreeing that he will go on and be a grand circuit champion simply because he is versatile and can lead or sit sprint on fast times.

Alot of star youngsters dont go on because they dont have the leg power, if you can run 54 halves at 3yr your going to match it with the big boys.

You can be a a star 3yr old winning in 56 halves but once you get to the elite and they are running 55 halves thats 1 second faster which is roughly 13 metres difference.

Go Sushi Sushi

[triplev123]

Not that there would be any point in doing so BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE A BIG $$$ 3YO COLTS RACE THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO DO SO (for Christ's sake someone take note of that) but if we did and it was decided to really open Sushi Sushi up over the Mile at Menangle then I'm telling you that he blows through 1:50 like it's a piece of tissue paper. I reckon he has got a high 1:48's low 1:49's in him right now. Add on a couple of years worth of maturity and racecraft and he will be a 3 Headed Gorilla, no risk.

[eliteblood]

I dont beleive anyone on here is detracting from what Sushi has achieved. Only questioning his future. While I am in the clear minority here I agree with ringmans assessment of his future. He will win more races but I doubt his ability to dominate the grand circuit ala Smoken Up, Blackie etc. While his record is impeccable he has raced with blessed barrier draws and charmed runs while his main opposition in hardly a sterling crop of 3yo's, Excel Stride, has been dealt horror draws time after time. Excel Strides effort to get within 7m of him after his run was exceptional. Excel Stride ran him to 2.5m from the 3deep to the chair in the Breeders Challenge so is Excel Stride going to be 2.5m after death seating off the top line GC'ers. Then again opinions are like aholes, everyones got one. Time will tell who's right. My moneys on ringman. Juicy odds by the look of it too.

What is wrong with this year's crop of 3YO's. Excel Stride is a very good horse, he would be hailed a great horse in almost any other year. He has just been unlucky to run into Sushi and to always fair worst in barrier draws.
He has put up some mighty runs to chase Sushi home but the 2.5m margin you mentioned could easily have been 12.5m had Greg Sugars moved a muscle.
Excel Stride will find it much harder than Sushi IMO to compete in open company because he lacks gate speed. He will always be doing it the hard way, putting up great runs, but getting beaten.

Suggesting that Sushi will not measure up because Captain Joy hasn't is ridiculous. There could be any number of reasons why Captain Joy has not performed as well as an aged horse but despite that he is not in the same class. Sushi won the Vic Derby in 1:55.7 as he liked (Captain Joy won in 1:58.9). Sushi won the Breeders Challenge in 1:54.1 untouched, (BAF's track record is 1:53.8 - Captain Joy won in 1:55.5). Sushi won the Breeders Crown unextended in 1:54.4 (track record is 1:54.2 - Captain Joy won in 1:57.6). Sushi won the Great Northern Derby in 1:57.4 for 2700m (NZ 3YO record, 3rd fastest time ever by any age group, CUF won in 1:59.7, Elsu in 1:59.6, Changeover in 1:59.6, Monkey King in 2:.02)
Leading into the GN Derby, Sushi worked out with Imthemightyquinn. ITMQ led and Sushi ran him to a head. I cannot wait to see what he does when sucked along and let out at the top of the straight.

Yet, for some reason, you are telling us that Sushi's crop of 3YO's are not that great and he is unlikley to measure up as a grand circuit. What are you guys on !!!!

[thesushitrain]

please dont put me with the others..all i said is he wont dominate the GC, but i definitely agree he will be a big player

[Village Kid]

Cheers eliteblood, like I said with triplev123, its good to read posts which examine the similarities/differences between the 2 horses.

Wasn't trying to to knock the horse, just get some more learned points of view.

Speaking of Captain Joy, Excel Stride could be a bit like Bonavita Bay, in that he's always going to have to do it tough, circling the field and sitting in the death. Will be interesting to see how they both fare in the coming years.

Cheers

[Zipper]

Triple,

I tend to agree, he has one of the most efficient actions I have ever seen and he glides round Menangle beautifully. Sub 1:50 wouldn't be an issue for him. Imagine him rolling off the back of a hot speed and chasing something down, then we would see the real Sushi!!

[triplev123]

I reckon he is every inch his mother, gait, everything, right down to him having her racing mannerisms. The tail cocking & swish when he's asked for more or cut loose, that's Sabilize.

[thesushitrain]

i'm pretty sure bonavista bay is finished, anyone know more then me?

[mango]

If he is finished the owner has no one to blame but himself.

[aussiebreno]

What is wrong with this year's crop of 3YO's. Excel Stride is a very good horse, he would be hailed a great horse in almost any other year. He has just been unlucky to run into Sushi and to always fair worst in barrier draws.
He has put up some mighty runs to chase Sushi home but the 2.5m margin you mentioned could easily have been 12.5m had Greg Sugars moved a muscle.
Excel Stride will find it much harder than Sushi IMO to compete in open company because he lacks gate speed. He will always be doing it the hard way, putting up great runs, but getting beaten.

Suggesting that Sushi will not measure up because Captain Joy hasn't is ridiculous. There could be any number of reasons why Captain Joy has not performed as well as an aged horse but despite that he is not in the same class. Sushi won the Vic Derby in 1:55.7 as he liked (Captain Joy won in 1:58.9). Sushi won the Breeders Challenge in 1:54.1 untouched, (BAF's track record is 1:53.8 - Captain Joy won in 1:55.5). Sushi won the Breeders Crown unextended in 1:54.4 (track record is 1:54.2 - Captain Joy won in 1:57.6). Sushi won the Great Northern Derby in 1:57.4 for 2700m (NZ 3YO record, 3rd fastest time ever by any age group, CUF won in 1:59.7, Elsu in 1:59.6, Changeover in 1:59.6, Monkey King in 2:.02)
Leading into the GN Derby, Sushi worked out with Imthemightyquinn. ITMQ led and Sushi ran him to a head. I cannot wait to see what he does when sucked along and let out at the top of the straight.

Yet, for some reason, you are telling us that Sushi's crop of 3YO's are not that great and he is unlikley to measure up as a grand circuit. What are you guys on !!!!
The amount of times bolded quote was said about Smoken Up is amazing!

[triplev123]

If he is finished the owner has no one to blame but himself.

[VVV] Jogged my memory. Don't know the bloke & completely off topic but I once met a fella by the name of Graham McLachan who went to school with old mate at St. Augustines & had in fact pulled him out of the river at Peets Bridge back in 1962 & saved him from drowing. Small world huh?

[nat]

A lot of water has to go under the bridge till he is a FFA horse as a 4yld in 4yld class he will still dominate as very few horses at the moment will hold him out and make him work and he will get easy runs with quick last half's. The measure will be when he is in open company and has to do some work and win thats what he will be measured on. Changeover is one that comes to mind that has raced good right through his age group to open company

[Love Of Courage]

I am a little surprised that a stallion career has not been mentioned yet for Sushi Sushi. An extremely good pedigree with brilliant ractrack performace.

I would certainly consider sending a mare or two to him, pending a sensible service fee. Like VVV would love to see him burn up Menangle.

I believe that courages best performance was his Australian Derby win in 1.56.5 for the 2540 at Moonee Valley. What time would that equate to at Melton ?

[eliteblood]

I am a little surprised that a stallion career has not been mentioned yet for Sushi Sushi. An extremely good pedigree with brilliant ractrack performace.

I would certainly consider sending a mare or two to him, pending a sensible service fee. Like VVV would love to see him burn up Menangle.

I believe that courages best performance was his Australian Derby win in 1.56.5 for the 2540 at Moonee Valley. What time would that equate to at Melton ?

There are two things stopping him from making it as a stallion LOC.
The dogs ate both of them

[Love Of Courage]

Most unfortunate ! I had always thought that he was a colt. Such a fantastic pedigree it never occurred to me that he would be gelded !

I guess that would be very disappointing as the mare deserves to have a stallion son.

[thesushitrain]

better get in mightymo's ear then about getting cloning or IVF or something going on at HRA breeders LOC

[Love Of Courage]

better get in mightymo's ear then about getting cloning or IVF or something going on at HRA breeders LOC

A pity it cannot be done. I would add Blacks A Fake to this list.

Was Sushi Sushi gelded due to his attitude as a colt ?

What % of colts are gelded & why ?

[eliteblood]

Yes, he was a difficult young colt

[David Summers]

It's sad that Sushi's dam Sabilize , a fine on-track performer herself , has not produced any reasonable progeny that will be able to carry on her fine name. Other than Sushi she has has a pretty ordinary stud career, but he has certainly made up for the past disappointments.

[thesushitrain]

wow harsh judge ozninja.... its hard to know what happened behind the scenes, she might have had a handy one that got hurt.... but sabilise has thrown sushi, that makes up for 20 horses that never even make the track... i'd be very surprised if something close in the family doesnt throw another good horse

[David Summers]

Not intending to be harsh at all , just saying that it's a shame. I followed Sabilize's career closely when she was racing. A fine tough mare.

All I am saying is that looking at her progeny http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/m_progeny.cfm?horse_id=333644 (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/m_progeny.cfm?horse_id=333644)there has not been much happening on the track or off , outside of Sushi. I am not in any way trying to criticise as she has done more than most dams could ever do just with Sushi.

She is 22 years old now and seems to have had lots of problems getting into foal over the years. Who knows , maybe the latest Four Starzzz Shark colt will go onto great things and stay an entire. Sure hope so.

Sushi was conceived later in life for Sabilize , so maybe some of her daughters might produce something special later on.