Industry Indicators - Good, Bad & Ugly

[alphastud]

FOALS - SALES RESULTS - PARTICIPATION - % NEW OWNERS - % X OWNERS - REGISTRATIONS - TRAINERS v WINS - BETTING - FIELD SIZES - EXTENDED NOMS.

Only the authorities have full access to statistics that tells more about where our industry is and how it's trending. However, information such as sales results provide good insight.

Recently,

APG's mixed sale flopped. 61 of the 84 lots were passed in. (72%)

Shepparton's mixed sale was poor. 30 of the 71 lots were passed in. (42%)

APG is the best standardbred sales marketing company in Australia and has an excellent record. Either vendors were suddenly unrealistic in their reserves or the market went to sleep.

Shepparton HRC are old style marketers however jagged a better 42% pass in rate. Looking closer however shows some sick results for vendors.
E.g.
x - Henin Hardenne NZ in foal to Captaintreacherous. The service fee alone is $11,500. This well bred ITP mare is a half sister to Stunnin Cullen - sold for $7,750.
x - Rhodium Castle, winner of $89k, dam of Micrometeor (4 wins from 8 starts) and closely related to Jilliby Jitterbug - sold for $1,000.

Doesn't anyone see a problem?
How are we going to fix it?
How do we know that our solution (if any) is fixing it?
Know what the flow-on effect from down trending sales prices is?

http://www.ardex.com.au/apgonlineauctions/default.aspx?pageaction=saleresults&saleid=42
http://www.sheppartonhrc.com.au/news.php?id=1160

[halfyourluck]

Rhodium Castle probably a bad example, she came with a vet report that was not too flash and effectively meant embryo transfer was most likely required going forward. Not many buyers at mixed sales interested in ET I would imagine. A great pity because Micrometeor looks a very nice horse and doing a great job at present.

[Messenger]

For the umpteenth time I am going to bang on about us needing to create our own 'Melbourne Cup'.
You have to be a follower before you consider ownership.

Ps If you were an Age reader or simply a TV news follower - you would not know harness exists

[Dot]

Interest in yearling sales is probably a better indicator Richard, mixed stock sales are often the equivalent of trash and treasure sales, with a variety of stock and explanations for them to be there. For the most part it is buyer beware but there are bargains for the astute to be had.

Kev Victoria has its "Melbourne Cup" and it's Cox Plate of harness racing. There called the Hunter Cup and Victoria Cup, and rather then hold fast with their traditions as the TB industry has done they've been kicked around from pillar to post. The Hunter Cup is no longer a standing start handicap which equated with the Melbourne Cup, not necessarily the best horses in it, but all horses handicapped and run over a journey in an effort to even out the field, and the Victoria Cup a free for all that was intended for the very best horses as the Cox Plate is for TBs.

Instead the focus has gone into an ID which has always been a "roving" event, and as such I'm not sure could have the same benefits for the industry in Victoria as an increased focus on the states two premier events. There will be plenty disagree but perhaps the time was right after the WA IDs to lay that event to rest, at least for a time, and invest in restoring the "middle tier" that produces the horses that compete in our sport. If we do intice them through the door how do we intend to keep them in our house when all it appears we will have to offer is the crumbs of restricted class racing.

Whilst economists disagree over the success of trickle down economics on a national scale, after a lifetime in equestrian pursuits ( but not depending on them for a living) trickle down economics works in the equestrian sphere. Investment in horses and associated equipment by the more wealthy does trickle down to horses and equipment being available to the less well off at reduced prices. Funding from the grassroots alone up does not, yet that is what it appears HRV have become focussed on.

The focus needs to be in the broadest band of participants who can afford to and be incentivised by the possibility of reward, not handouts, to continue to invest in the industry regardless of where their income is derived. No disrespect intended to the "battlers" at the lowest rungs of the sport and their contribution to filling fields and creating turnover is not just welcomed but essential. But raising stakes and increasing races at this level is short sighted and ineffective, presumably no one realistically expects this tier of participant, regarded as "battlers or grassroots" to make major investments in the breeding of horses to fill our commitment to the provision of racing product in the future do they?

Likewise a high level of investment in races with elite levels of prizemoney also stifles investment across a broad section of the industry. It's simply more efficient rather then breed and invest in producing a number of horses looking for "the one" for the wealthiest owners to purchase at a very high price a proven going horse that they know already can race at the elite level.
Not all wealthy owners do this of course, some put tens if not hundreds of thousands into breeding horses and kudos to them, but there are a few who take advantage of jurisdictions such as New Zealand who are sellers to reap the rewards of racing in jurisdictions such as WA without in my opinion putting in their fair share in the jurisdiction in which they reap their rewards.

Our government and governing bodies investment in our industry has to be at the level of the industry that produces horses ( and stimulates wider scale economic activity) Whilst all is not rosey in the U.S. and whilst we cannot expect the casino revenues they have access to there the most successful state at present, and growing, is Ohio which only a few years ago legalised casinos and legislated that a portion of the proceeds be directed to fund racing. But not at an elite level, in the U.S. the bulk of elite races are stakes races funded by payments by breeders and owners, and nor at the level of the battlers, but at the level of of those who can breed by funding races restricted to stock bred in the state, which in turn stimulates economic activity for the state. And for the "battlers" this does have flow on effects, in breeding more horses and the claiming system in the U.S. horses are available for purchase to the "battlers" at much less then production cost, which enables them to continue their participation in racing when the actual cost of breeding a horse for racing for them would likely be out of reach.

I'll happily accept my $200 saving to register my foal this season, but I won't be incentivised to breed another that a $300k odd race series that the "savings" on registration cost could have funded might have incentivised me. I'll except my extra return for racing in restricted class with the horses I have, but I won't be incentivised to breed another if restricted class is all that is on offer.

But to David Martin and Co, I say that I and everyone else would have found the $200 odd to register our foals this spring and raced on in restricted class for $3500 next season if the money you've offered in handouts were invested in strategies to increase the number of horses being bred and create growth in the industry. A strategy of handouts and of increased albeit slightly higher prizemoney restricted racing simply can't be sustained in the long term, the annualised decline in foal crop every year, and there's no reason to think that it will change this year from the last seven, won't allow it.

[Messenger]

Dot, in the past I have said that the Hunter Cup could be our Melbourne Cup but it is not for if it was - more than 1% of people would have heard of it

[Dot]

And who's fault is that Kev but our own.

[hugdon]

To become relevant "again" the industry needs both long and short term goals I have no idea on KPI's, goal setting and whether or not each state would look after itself or if they could/would combine on certain criteria etc. I do know however that Chicago Bull returned to racing last Friday and won with a leg in the air. I rarely buy papers so I have no idea if his return was promoted. This is where it should start. Engender interest in the game. Deliberately start rivalries. Have a trainer come out and become outspoken/controversial you know my horse is better than your horse stuff. Gosh self praise is no recommendation BUT it is free!! Look at what Gaye Waterhouse did for years. Her horse would win a 2 yr old race by a few lengths and next thing it is headed for the Golden Slipper/Blue Diamond etc Recently I was told that Kalgoorlie had been axed. This person was somewhat annoyed by this. As such I asked to be sent the relevant info and I also would add mjy voice of discontent and go see the local pollies. Well I am still waiting! So is this apathy or forgetfulness. I don't know for I also didn't follow up. I just thought about again now whilst writing this

[eliteblood]

There is another elephant in our room and it relates to this years 2YO Breeders Crown heats.
The Qld heats consisted of 2 starters in the colts heat and 3 in the fillies heat.
Today's NSW heats comprise 2 colts and 4 fillies.
The NZ heats drawn for 20/7 consist of 3 colts and 2 fillies.
Worrying times !!!!!

[Messenger]

Jim, I totally agree - promotion, promotion, promotion!

Those numbers are a real worry Trevor

[alphastud]

Yes Trevor, field sizes for such futurities is a major problem.
I had paid up for my 2yo and 3yo (both winners) and apparently missed the final payment deadline.
The late payment fee was $1,800 and so I decided to withdraw.
I have to take responsibility for the mistake however the process around payments and knowing whether your horse is sustained is messy.
Glen Canty (HRV) sounded like he's serious about improving things. Let's see.
These are the sort of races that we should be able to build some interest around.
Thanks,

[Dot]

The breeders crown heats are changing from next year I think it is and will all be being held in Victoria if I recall correctly.

At least now Richard there is a late payment option, up to owners if they use it. Whilst reminders are sent out, might be an opportunity growing now for someone to run a stakes payment service which ensures their "busy" clients horses have all their relevant payments made on time, though if your racing in Vic the payments are taken out early in the piece from stakes money. I've also had one miss out due to messy admin procedures.

Greg Canty has resigned and HRV is currently advertising for a new racing and wagering manager.

And Jim you've advocated for promotion and indicated you don't buy the paper in the same sentence. Can you see the problem?

[arlington]

Diminishing Breeders Crown entrants, a lot of people have been saying over the last couple of years they won't be paying up for it. Some due to stable dominance as well as the "if you haven't got a Bettors or Art Major...may as well not be in it" and of course the inequity of two or three horse heats outside Vic.

Is this the last year heats will be run in NZ and interstate? All will be in Vic and I think all on the one day like the Vic Super Sires. There's also an intended prize money increase for the final, previous Board and CEO. Pretty sure, funded by running less heats, no more two and three horse heats out side Vic.

Will these changes encourage more entrants?


edit: just checked, 2018 is the last year for outside heats.

[Amlin]

Just how it used to be!

[eliteblood]

Just how it used to be!

There has always been interstate heats Kyle, and in the early days many of them.
I remember taking a horse to Wagga Wagga to race in a heat.

[Dot]

Moving all heats to Vic Wayne only addresses the inequity of 2 or 3 horse heats versus full fields in the early stages of the event. Perceptions such as can't compete unless you have an Art Major or a Bettors Delight will persist, and if there was any doubt previously the results of the recent Vicbred series confirms there is very much a dominant stable in the Victorian juvenile ranks at present.

Without the "walk up" start across the Tasman and interstate it remains to be seen if stables in these jurisdictions target the Breeders Crown as they have in the past, particularly as they are no doubt also aware of the strength of the Stewart stable which have the advantage of racing on home turf.

I envisage a continuing reluctance amongst the broader band of participants to contribute to the funding pool for the Breeders Crown if they feel they have little prospect of success in it, and to maintain funding levels the event will need to become more elitist with a smaller pool of participants contributing a higher amount in order to race in a reduced number of heats for a significant purse in the final, and the title of Breeders Crown champion.

Whilst the number of participants would be reduced the event can still be an important marketing opportunity to see the best juveniles race to industry participants and public alike. But with harness racing having a reputation as sport for the battlers rather then the silvertails it remains to be seen how well an increasingly elitist series would be received.

[alphastud]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/turf-thoroughbreds/the-kosciuszko-racing-nsw-launches-new-race-and-announces-24m-prizemoney-boost/news-story/cf6eb4800818de519050d2e484bf4ab2

Is this an example of the type of initiative that you're referring to Kevin?

[Messenger]

Like all the papers nowadays, I am afraid you cannot see the link unless you are a subscriber Richard. Can you take a 'snip' of it?

[alphastud]

Sorry. Try this
http://www.racingnsw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Media-Release-Kosciuszko.pdf

[Messenger]

Thanks Richard

Wow that is DIFFERENT

" Each winning ticket holder will then have an entry
in The Kosciuszko and can select a NSW country trained horse to race in their entry,
subject to agreeing with the horse’s owners as to how they will share the prizemoney for
the race."

I know it is copying the main race, The Everest, but imagine Joe or Josephine Blow being in a position to find/select a horse to represent them

[hugdon]

A matter of perception Dot. No

[arlington]

Thanks Richard

Wow that is DIFFERENT

" Each winning ticket holder will then have an entry
in The Kosciuszko and can select a NSW country trained horse to race in their entry,
subject to agreeing with the horse’s owners as to how they will share the prizemoney for
the race."

I know it is copying the main race, The Everest, but imagine Joe or Josephine Blow being in a position to find/select a horse to represent them

One question. Why didn't Peter V wait for Melbourne Cup week to announce :p

That announcement, concept, and the current Breeders Crown discussion, interesting.


In regards to the Breeders Crown http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?7925-2015-Breeders-Crown three years ago to the day.
The BC has moved a long way from it's inception as the Bendigo Breeders Crown. Sure, bigger prize money for the ABC and it's not surprising the word elitist has come up and that's a long way from the BBC. (I think Kyle was on the money. Initially, as the BBC, heats were run in Vic, although Peter Walsh won with Flubber (a name for Kev) early on so whether there were NSW heats at least?)

I'm not sure if there is anything constructive in my memories of something that felt good when the BBC final day was first run. Heaps of people, participants at all levels, felt good, happy. Easy for me to think/recall now it was happy days until it became the ABC. I'm obviously a Vic participant.

Now we have the marquee/area for participating owners on final day at Melton. Not a bad thing. BBC we had, I should say Bendigo HRC had a fair, field days atmosphere to it. Noel, Adaptor might like to add? I'm not sure where I'm going with this but the BBC felt like it encompassed all.

The relevance might be the C $5000 prize money level against the Australasian Breeders Crown. Considering that most ABC entrants have come and will continue to come from Vic it would be questionable if the ABC could continue even at the elite, I won't say elitist, level with a C5k tier. Doubt very much if R4K will do much either. I go back to wondering what's wrong with two tiers. R3.5/4K and max the C prizemoney, one tier, regardless of assessment or quality.

Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?) Considering we are moving to a national system still(?)

Amongst other factors, the increase to the R $ level may well be a "reward" for funding the $10K races as well as a great percentage of $7K races. Leaves the $5K level treading water perilously. Not to be ignored is the $5K level is in the same revenue raiser group as the R level. Everyone knows all that. How do you raise the $5K without minimising your profit/revenue from those? I don't know exactly where the average/line is. Is it 5.5, 6K, undoubtedly a lot to do with programming, creating turnover.

Is it too radical, can I say democratically unacceptable, to offer only two tiers? We still have conditioned racing. Previously we raced for something like C0-C2 $6.4K, C3- $6.7. Some people weren't happy with only 3 or $400 separating faster assessed and slower. Now we race for $5K and if you win a 7K it's wow! People will even congratulate you emphasising it was a $7K race, wow I'm racing at the elite level!

If we could max C at 8K which might mean no, or very little 10K as well as probably keeping R at 3.5K, would this be an unacceptable race card:-
At the extreme, C0 $8000 trainer less than 5 wins last season no faster than 2.01. C5 $8000 open/ffa RBD?

C5 owners disgruntled? But you have a C5 today and tomorrow a C0? Or both at the same time? Just like the "fall-back" thought on R races, there if your potential champ isn't, the horses that move through the classes aim for increased prize money via minor and major feature races? And if you're not quite that quality you also have the drop back. Not too bad to be dropping back to 8K?

May well be the opposite of the trickle down economy but what we're seeing with the Breeders crown, well, if history shows the greater number of horses only win at the lowest levels, would upping that prize money level encourage that money to be reinvested? "I don't have to go to the top, top, stallions...will have another look at that other yearling at the sales"?

[Dot]

Peter V is a smart operator Wayne, he's selling tickets now, come Melbourne Cup week he"ll probably announce the prizemoney is doubling!

"Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?)"

Has been some information provided to participants in meetings ( on multiple topics) and a mail out. As I understand it there have been delays as a result of difficulties with RISE getting the required software changes into HARvey. I haven't been to Gloucester Park for a while but I'm told there are tutorials, or at lest a chance to view the new system available to participants during race days.

[Adaptor]

One question. Why didn't Peter V wait for Melbourne Cup week to announce :p

That announcement, concept, and the current Breeders Crown discussion, interesting.


In regards to the Breeders Crown http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?7925-2015-Breeders-Crown three years ago to the day.
The BC has moved a long way from it's inception as the Bendigo Breeders Crown. Sure, bigger prize money for the ABC and it's not surprising the word elitist has come up and that's a long way from the BBC. (I think Kyle was on the money. Initially, as the BBC, heats were run in Vic, although Peter Walsh won with Flubber (a name for Kev) early on so whether there were NSW heats at least?)

I'm not sure if there is anything constructive in my memories of something that felt good when the BBC final day was first run. Heaps of people, participants at all levels, felt good, happy. Easy for me to think/recall now it was happy days until it became the ABC. I'm obviously a Vic participant.

Now we have the marquee/area for participating owners on final day at Melton. Not a bad thing. BBC we had, I should say Bendigo HRC had a fair, field days atmosphere to it. Noel, Adaptor might like to add? I'm not sure where I'm going with this but the BBC felt like it encompassed all.

The relevance might be the C $5000 prize money level against the Australasian Breeders Crown. Considering that most ABC entrants have come and will continue to come from Vic it would be questionable if the ABC could continue even at the elite, I won't say elitist, level with a C5k tier. Doubt very much if R4K will do much either. I go back to wondering what's wrong with two tiers. R3.5/4K and max the C prizemoney, one tier, regardless of assessment or quality.

Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?) Considering we are moving to a national system still(?)

Amongst other factors, the increase to the R $ level may well be a "reward" for funding the $10K races as well as a great percentage of $7K races. Leaves the $5K level treading water perilously. Not to be ignored is the $5K level is in the same revenue raiser group as the R level. Everyone knows all that. How do you raise the $5K without minimising your profit/revenue from those? I don't know exactly where the average/line is. Is it 5.5, 6K, undoubtedly a lot to do with programming, creating turnover.

Is it too radical, can I say democratically unacceptable, to offer only two tiers? We still have conditioned racing. Previously we raced for something like C0-C2 $6.4K, C3- $6.7. Some people weren't happy with only 3 or $400 separating faster assessed and slower. Now we race for $5K and if you win a 7K it's wow! People will even congratulate you emphasising it was a $7K race, wow I'm racing at the elite level!

If we could max C at 8K which might mean no, or very little 10K as well as probably keeping R at 3.5K, would this be an unacceptable race card:-
At the extreme, C0 $8000 trainer less than 5 wins last season no faster than 2.01. C5 $8000 open/ffa RBD?

C5 owners disgruntled? But you have a C5 today and tomorrow a C0? Or both at the same time? Just like the "fall-back" thought on R races, there if your potential champ isn't, the horses that move through the classes aim for increased prize money via minor and major feature races? And if you're not quite that quality you also have the drop back. Not too bad to be dropping back to 8K?

May well be the opposite of the trickle down economy but what we're seeing with the Breeders crown, well, if history shows the greater number of horses only win at the lowest levels, would upping that prize money level encourage that money to be reinvested? "I don't have to go to the top, top, stallions...will have another look at that other yearling at the sales"?

The first Bendigo Breeders Breeders Crown consisted of two race meetings.
Heats were at Lord's Raceway on Friday night, May 1, 1998
Finals on Sunday, May 3.
The City of Bendigo really got behind the promotion, with Tourism the big focus.
It really was like country field days!

It's 20 years this year!

[Dot]

I remember Flubber winning the breeders challenge, I didn't think there was a heat in NSW. Rightly or wrongly our industry has changed since those days, whilst there have always been better sires, better bred horses, and better performing stables I don't think the divide has ever been as great as it is today. I don't think it is reasonable for series such as the breeders crown and Vicbred to continue on with everyone under the same umbrella and an increasingly smaller number of participants principally funding a series that many have realistically little prospect of success in.

We need to be more innovative and come up with concepts such as the Everest and the Kosciusko, city country is perhaps not the right divide for harness racing but I'm sure there is one. The decline in profitability for small breeders and their exit from the industry, and future impact on racings viability is not restricted to our country or code as this report shows:

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/tba-s-economic-impact-study-highlights-alarming-trends-for-small-breeders/339520

We can't continue with piecemeal band aid fixes, we need a "whole" of industry approach. Perhaps we need to start our juvenile racing with more of a bang, a change to calendar year as has been mooted for a while, the introduction of a fixed start date proceeded by breakfast or lunch with the babies type mass qualifying days for babies showcasing our breeding industry and opportunities to enter the industry before the baby races start. Maybe there is a way to revive a Bendigo Breeders Crown field day style atmosphere, if we don't look we won't find it.

For now Wayne I'm with you while we still have the R, C and M type handicapping system there should be a distinctive difference in prizemoney between the 3, let the race conditions determine who is eligible where, and vary those conditions to restrict or ease entry to a particular race, and which horses and participants and horses are a little as advantaged or disadvantaged each program. If we introduce prizemoney based handicapping then the gradient can be more gradual with horses overall and recent earnings predominantly determine eligibility for races rather then their assesment.

Whilst we drag the chain on introducing a new handicapping system handicapping based on prizemoney has been used to good effect in NA for a long time, but this is now becoming superseeded by some tracks introducing formation of the fields using ratings provided by Trackmaster, a private company providing a computer generated ratings program designed to rate runners on a number of performance factors not just prizemoney for punters. Maybe it's time we stopped looking to catch up and started looking ahead of the game.

[Messenger]

It is WRONG that the AUSTRALIAN PACING GOLD MELBOURNE AUTUMN SALE FINAL is a Gp2 on Saturday at Melton

If you are wondering how 10th in the heats made the final the answer is there was only 1 heat and now the same 10 horses go around in the final for $50k!

http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?mc=MX280718&rc=MXM28071807

[aussiebreno]

It is WRONG that the AUSTRALIAN PACING GOLD MELBOURNE AUTUMN SALE FINAL is a Gp2 on Saturday at Melton

If you are wondering how 10th in the heats made the final the answer is there was only 1 heat and now the same 10 horses go around in the final for $50k!

http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?mc=MX280718&rc=MXM28071807
Just like the Vicbred Silver and Bronze it is ridiculous. I wonder how much advertising $50,000 would get you in the Herald Sun or Triple M radio, or a top band to try and get people to the track on APG finals night?

[Dot]

The magic millions is the equivalent series for the TBs and the principle race, the magic millions 2yo Classic on the Gold Coast is only a restricted listed race with its around $2million in prizemoney, because of the restricted entry to the race by having to be a sales graduate. The support races around the country funded by the concept carry no additional status but distribute higher then usual levels of prizemoney to supporters of the sale.

It is arguable that without the competition posed by the Inglis sales provide to the Magic Millions sale our best yearlings are sold through the APG sales (if they are sold at all) and the final should carry group status, but it is never the less a restricted entry level race and therefore should not carry group 1 status regardless of prizemoney, and its subsidiary races should not carry group status either.

The homegrown series carrying group 2 status based on its $50k prizemoney with an entry restricted to horses with limited prizemoney is the opposite of what group racing is intended to do, and that is identify and give enduring status for breeding purposes to the best horses, not the best horse in a restricted field. As the Vicbred silver and gold prohibits horses that made the final of the primary series participating, that is the best horses in the series then they shouldn't have group status either. Certainly buyer beware when these horses appear in pedigrees at the sales in the future.

The APG series raise the stakes money for its races from vendors and buyers and this money should principly be returned to those investors through stakes money, not spent on excessive amounts of promotion to draw people through the gate on raceday. Whilst we'd all like to see more people at the races getting them there through other drawcards and social activities on track can be counterproductive as whilst people attracted this way can be good for a clubs bottom line on the day these people rarely become long term investors in racing, and genuine race goers can be discouraged from attending by rowdy crowds not primarily interested in the racing.

[Amlin]

The Thursday night meeting at Cranbourne is probably not a good indicator for the sports future...but is a good example for open nominations at some meetings in my opinion as at least every horse trained locally ready to race would have entered, not just the nine that had a race on for them.

[gutwagon]

I notice that todays Cranbourne meeting has two 5 horse fields. So they must have changed the minimum field size from 6 to 5 . There's an indicator for the industry. At least owners get more chance to race their horses but if they can't turn the lack of owners and breeders around quickly we are in big trouble.

[Amlin]

I notice that todays Cranbourne meeting has two 5 horse fields. So they must have changed the minimum field size from 6 to 5 . There's an indicator for the industry. At least owners get more chance to race their horses but if they can't turn the lack of owners and breeders around quickly we are in big trouble.

I would say five horse fields would be used only where the meeting may fall over otherwise, though I may be wrong

[Dot]

Think we are already in big trouble Rick. Perhaps Owners can be incentivised quickly but there is an inevitable lag in breeding. Once the broodmare population declines that needs to be restored first ( generally from racing stock) before any increase in racing stock can occur a minimum of three years later and the broodmare population is currently in steady decline.

The recent initiatives from HRV, removal of registration fees for one season for foals already in utero when announced and increase in prizemoney for and volume of restricted races in the new season does nothing to inspire my confidence for the future as breeder or owner. Already my trainer has forwarned of a change in training fee structure for their business to remain viable in the new season. I've little doubt that translates to increased costs for owners, and no chance a win in restricted class, if indeed it occurs, could cover the bill for a months training.

It appears to me that HRVs board and management don't understand that they need to manage the entire harness racing ecosystem for the long term and not just direct all their focus on cheap restricted class races maximising profitability for HRV from wagering in the shortest possible time frame. Not a lot of point in being able to announce substantial increases in prizemoney in a few years time if the horse and trainer population has been decimated by what's on offer now.

I'm afraid I have to ask the question now, is this board and CEO in the industry for the long haul? Or is our "turn around" specialist CEO seeking the best outcome on paper in the short term to enhance his resume for the next position?

Over to you David, I've missed your contributions to the forum as I'm sure others have as well. I'm sorry if my question or remarks offends you, but some of us mere mortals do have knowledge of the competitiveness and transient nature of corporate CEO's, particularly those who come in to turn a business around, and to be fair as you've come to the position from outside the industry it's not like, as they say, you have any skin in the game.

[Messenger]

The Thursday night meeting at Cranbourne is probably not a good indicator for the sports future...but is a good example for open nominations at some meetings in my opinion as at least every horse trained locally ready to race would have entered, not just the nine that had a race on for them.

Interesting point Kyle and amazing that 36 horses can constitute a meet

[gutwagon]

My suggestion to get owners and breeders back into the industry would be to make the Vicbred $7000 bonus payable when a horse has it's first start, not first win. I would take the extra money required from the overall prize money pool and run a few less races each season.

This would probably not be sustainable for the long term but maybe just for the next 3 or 4 seasons. Just to try to give the breeding and owner pool a boost.

There would have to be some requirements the starter would have to meet, eg finish within 50m of the winner. Just to stop people trying to exploit the system.
$7000 may be too much but something like this needs to be introduced in the short term just to keep foals being bred.

[Excursion]

The industry seems to be consuming itself and is completely held to ransom by the modern day gaming industry.

It's going to take a different approach to get the it back on it's feet. We have to redevelop public interest for starters.

I am not sure how we can continue to run @450 race meetings a year when horse numbers are significantly lower than previous decades. Fields of 5/6/7 are not the sign of a healthy industry and are an embarassment. Perhaps while we still have 40 million dollars prize money available per annum in Victoria, we could look at a more equitable distribution of prize money. Country fronts that paid more - perhaps in the order of 10 to 15K - would incentivise owners to bring in to training all those horses languishing in paddocks. By all means continue to have feature races for all classes and age groups - just less of them.

Like it or not harness racing is made up mostly of hobbyist owners, trainers and drivers. As such the industry should be doing all it can to keep these people engaged. Without these dedicated hobbyists the industry would not exist - start to look after them and good things will follow.

[Richard prior]

Well said

[gutwagon]

Am I the only one that gets the feeling that the TAB and Sky Racing would rather Harness racing just went away so they can just run those animated races and make more profit ?

Until they start getting behind our sport we are in big trouble!

[Dot]

No Rick your not I've seen those cartoon races and their potential profitability with no live racing to pay for as the eventual future for "racing" since their inception. Along with deidentifed reruns of archival footage where "punters" just pick numbers as has been operating in several states in the U.S. for some time.

"Cartoon" racing is not permitted in WA pubs and clubs but now that the state government want to sell the WA TAB their on the table to potential buyers to sweeten the deal.

[David Martin]

Over to you David....


Hi Dot, thanks for your posting to the forum. Your questions or remarks certainly haven't offended me, and my limited input in recent times is a consequence of current workload and to a lesser degree a desire not to stifle debate and discussion. As you know, I welcome your views and that of others who are passionate about improving our industry, even if we don't always agree.


In regards to questions regarding short term v long term thinking, I would respectfully suggest the easy, short-term and popularist option would be to increase prizemoney across the board, which would have the effect of worsening the industry's financial position and increasing risk to the long-term future. Instead, we have taken sometimes unpopular decisions (such as spreading prizemoney from the Vic Cup to a broader number of industry participants), with the aim of guiding us all through the difficult financial situation the industry finds itself in, whilst implementing plans to secure the long-term future.


Kind Regards, David

[Dot]

Thank you David for taking the time to respond, I appreciate your busy. I posted the following in another thread ( Tiered Racing) some three weeks ago and was hoping you could provide the rational for increasing restricted race prizemoney ahead ( as it appears, I apologise if I missed it but I've seen no press release with regard to country front racing in the new season) of addressing the disparity of losing a country front penalty in a $5000 race which you've said yourself has been of more concern to participants then $3500 non penalty races

" From my interactions with many people, there is a strong desire to retain the no penalty 3500 races. Most attention focuses on the $5000 races where a penalty is incurred, so as we prepare plans for 2018/19, that will be an area to review."

Above is an extract from a post from David Martin, and below a link to a press release announcing an increase in prizemoney from $3500 to $4000 for restricted races, and an increase in the number of restricted $4000 races. Perhaps David could drop in and advise what is happening with C class races, particularly $5000 races, now only $1000 more then a restricted race and at the cost of a country penalty.

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/med...es-in-2018-19/

[David Martin]

Thanks Dot. As announced, stakemoney for Restricted class races will rise from $3500 to $4000 effective 1 September 2018, which has been welcomed by trainers who compete with horses at this level. We anticipate trainers will most often choose that option or that of the $7k Career penalty races, rather than take a 'penalty' for a $5k win. We have however retained $5k Career penalty races as an option for trainers, which may be particularly relevant for horses trying to secure their first win along with the full $7k Vicbred bonus. Cheers, David

[Dot]

Thanks David, it appears that I cant reopen the link to the press release, however I'm quite certain it said the intent was to provide more money for the "battlers". Will these $4000 races have restrictions on which trainers may nominate for these races? Particularly in light of the often already small field sizes? Have you considered that at $4000 more trainers, who aren't considered battlers by ordinary standards may nominate to take advantage of the penalty free conditions? Will the increase in volume of R class races correspond with a reduction in available C class races effectively forcing their hand?

Whilst this next comment pertains to WA I can't imagine the sentiment is any different in Victoria. The biggest concern amongst trainers here who patronise the equivalent R class racing, known as community race meetings, is not the level of stakesmoney that they are racing for, but that Bondy and Hally DONT drive in the gate with a truckload of horses each.

[David Martin]

Hi Dot, the media release referred to putting 'more money in the pockets of people in our industry who really need it', which might be interpreted as 'battlers', but most trainers really need more money and most stables will have a horse that needs to compete at this level at some point in time. We are mindful of the concern you mention and use a variety of conditions on races to provide as much as opportunity as possible for all horses and trainers. That can be difficult at times given the current National handicapping/programming system, which is why HRV and other states are working towards a new model. Cheers, David

[Amlin]

While we can't really market the current base stakemoney as an attractive investment to prospective owners perhaps we could market potential return on investment.

If you went to the trotting sales and bought a yearling for $7500 today you have the chance to race for $75,000 if good enough.

Just saw an ad on racing.com where a thoroughbred yearling is being syndicated for $650,000. Assuming that was close to purchase price (naive I know), based on racing for ten times the amount they would have to aim for a start in the Melbourne Cup or the Everest.

Would rather spend $5000 on a cheapy at the sales and pick up a few $7000 races in the country than race for $20,000 in a gallops maiden with a $300,000 purchase.

[Dot]

Nice in theory Kyle but how long do you think there will be cheapys to pick up at the sale for $5000 when in all likelihood it has cost the breeder twice if not three times that amount at least to produce them? With only around 50% of horses bred starting in a race your roughly 50/50 of getting to the races ( actually a little better because your horse is not one of the ones lost to racing in between being born and going through the sale as a cheapy, or perhaps it's is less then 50% of getting to the races and that's why it was a cheapy at the sales.) Given the number of horses that drop out of racing after a handful of starts your chances of picking up a couple of 7000k races in the country aren't looking too flash, particularly seeings David hasn't committed to how many of those will be programmed as opposed to 5000k and 4000k races.

And at 4000k races I don't think we can win people over to us on the basis of we race more frequently, take 5 starts to match the country gallopers 20k, which I thought now was min $25k ( that might be NSW) or four in $5k races, but hey win 3 7k races we might be ahead. Training and racing costs may be less for us but I don't think they are 20 to 33 % of all TB trainers fees so maybe not.

But yes your scenario certainly beats racing a $300k purchase in a 20k race. But as one young harness trainer wrote on Twitter it's really hard to ask your friends to go shares with you in a standardbred yearling when you know it's 50% not to even make it to the trials.

[gutwagon]

Michael Stanley tweeted this a few weeks ago, "I pay my worker as he should but unfortunately for me due to that I ended up earning less than he did for the year".
He is a very successful trainer and he still doesn't make a decent wage from the industry !

[Amlin]

Nice in theory Kyle but how long do you think there will be cheapys to pick up at the sale for $5000 when in all likelihood it has cost the breeder twice if not three times that amount at least to produce them? With only around 50% of horses bred starting in a race your roughly 50/50 of getting to the races ( actually a little better because your horse is not one of the ones lost to racing in between being born and going through the sale as a cheapy, or perhaps it's is less then 50% of getting to the races and that's why it was a cheapy at the sales.) Given the number of horses that drop out of racing after a handful of starts your chances of picking up a couple of 7000k races in the country aren't looking too flash, particularly seeings David hasn't committed to how many of those will be programmed as opposed to 5000k and 4000k races.

And at 4000k races I don't think we can win people over to us on the basis of we race more frequently, take 5 starts to match the country gallopers 20k, which I thought now was min $25k ( that might be NSW) or four in $5k races, but hey win 3 7k races we might be ahead. Training and racing costs may be less for us but I don't think they are 20 to 33 % of all TB trainers fees so maybe not.

But yes your scenario certainly beats racing a $300k purchase in a 20k race. But as one young harness trainer wrote on Twitter it's really hard to ask your friends to go shares with you in a standardbred yearling when you know it's 50% not to even make it to the trials.



Handicapping clearly has to be changed...especially if horses are dropping out of the system after a couple of runs. With one meeting a week dropped in SA due to low numbers, and less than 40 horses at one Vic meet last week it is a national issue, so for the sake of a strong industry nationally why is this not being finalised, and who is holding it up? Certainly numerous punters and horsepeople on Twitter can see the problem.

[Messenger]

Michael Stanley tweeted this a few weeks ago, "I pay my worker as he should but unfortunately for me due to that I ended up earning less than he did for the year".
He is a very successful trainer and he still doesn't make a decent wage from the industry !

And this is half our 'Integrity' problem too.
People having to be 'creative' to survive financially
We also no doubt have some who think they are entitled to make it their profession - not part time job/hobby, when their results and supporters are not strong enough

[Dot]

Oops my bad in an earlier post wrote 4000k races instead of 4k races, but heck I wish they were 4000k races!!!

There has been progress on a new handicapping system in WA Kyle, and NSW have increasing elements of one in place. Have to say I've seen nothing from HRV and HRA that amounts to progress on that score. Those not to get to the races and dropout figures were from somewhere official and they said it was being looked into but I don't recall where.

As for HRA they can move quickly when they want, ( yes pun intended) look at the whip debacle, but for the rest it seems a snails pace will suffice. 4 years ago they banned pulling cords, a month later they rescinded the ban and said they would review the issue, 4 years later I still haven't seen the results of the review. I'm not holding my breath on a new handicapping system from them.

To me it seems that HRV is also stuck in inertia in this regard. Effectively Victoria has 2 "island" horse populations that they could trial change on but nothing has happened. Mildura which has a large horses population supplemented to a small degree by outsiders, and around Cranbourne which has a small population and requires large amounts of additional horses for quality meetings.

Ordinarily Kyle I would say that trainers shouldn't sacrifice there ability to place horses to advantage but in Cranbourne/warraguls case it is certainly worth considering and likely worth a try. I can say that during EI in Sydney in 2009 I think it was the "island" population of horses at Bankstown was able to stage 3 meetings with not maximum fields but compeditive racing and reasonable sized fields using every horse available to race in the Bankstown precinct in fields drawn up by the NSW chief handicapper before the virus claimed us too and we were forced to shut down.

[Messenger]

Only 6 races at Ballarat tonight
Surprising a $7k C0 and a $7k C1 did not hold up

[David Martin]

Only 6 races at Ballarat tonight
Surprising a $7k C0 and a $7k C1 did not hold up

And then 22 races on Friday...

[Messenger]

And then 22 races on Friday...

Mildura is a godsend for Vic - it is like a state within the state :o

[Messenger]

From my Odds On spreadsheet for the last 2 months I calculate that for June and July we are averaging almost exactly 9 races per meeting
August is threatening to bring this average down as even by Saturday our August average will only be 8.2

We have a strategy in place to reduce our number of meets but increase the size of the programmes
Admittedly this is Winter!

With season's end fast approaching, the annual figures will soon be available to see how well we managed to increase program sizes.
I hope/think these figures are available state by state (not just Nationally)
Hopefully larger programmes have not been at the expense of field sizes, no doubt we want an average of 8+ per field but I imagine anything over 9 is icing and probably not a factor in improving turnover

It would be interesting to know which is better for turnover
a race split into 2 fields of 6
or a full field of 12 (or 10 with 2 emergencies on our smaller tracks)

[Dot]

In my experience Kev in NSW field size was paramount for turnover, and why they went to 12 horse fields at Menangle and Newcastle even though the tracks were designed for fields of 10 all across the front. Keeping field sizes up is also considered paramount in WA, and I believe the newly appointed CEO in SA in a podcast interview in the last week also spoke of the importance of keeping up field sizes.

It appears that Vic is the odd state out......

[gutwagon]

Will be interesting to see how the meetings hold up after September 1 when the 2yo races disappear for 3 to 4 months .

I probably should be booking myself in at a psychiatrists because I just got myself a new broodmare !

[Hermione]

Will be interesting to see how the meetings hold up after September 1 when the 2yo races disappear for 3 to 4 months .

I probably should be booking myself in at a psychiatrists because I just got myself a new broodmare !

The beginning of the turn around for the breeding industry? :) :) :) Good luck :)

[Messenger]

Will be interesting to see how the meetings hold up after September 1 when the 2yo races disappear for 3 to 4 months .

I probably should be booking myself in at a psychiatrists because I just got myself a new broodmare !

Think of the excitement - I hope she is close enough to visit

[Richard prior]

Nice

[gutwagon]

I just hope there is still an industry left when my next foal is old enough to race.

[alphastud]

Bathurst blues - August

1 Aug - 7 races
8 Aug - 6 races
15 Aug - 6 races
22 Aug - 6 races

Following an exiting breeders challenge series at Bathurst, racing has dropped-off. Not sure if this is consistent with other years during winter.

Good track, great facilities etc.

[gutwagon]

Heard an ad for the Breeders Crown finals on 3aw today during Niel Mitchell's show. It's great that they are promoting the event but personally I don't think this is the best place to do it. I thought they were aiming for the 18 to 30 yo demographic , during the footy and sports shows on 3aw would be ok but I would have thought FM radio and the sports stations would give better results.

[Dot]

Are we targeting an 18 to 30 demographic Rick? And why if we are? Isn't the colour of everyone's money that they can invest in the industry the same? And which demographic has the greatest discretionary spending power? I doubt it's the 18 to 30 group. We promote the equality of women in harness racing, ( having been involved in horse sports all my life I actually take the equality of women in equestrian sport for granted) but why are we not promoting that unlike a lot of other sports age is not a barrier to becoming involved in harness racing.

Certainly the involvement of 18 to 30 year olds is welcome but maybe we would have more success in attracting them if we reconnect with and rekindle the passion of an earlier generation that have become disconnected from the trots and they then share their rekindled passion with the next generation rather then going in "cold" with the younger generation.

[Messenger]

We probably need to be targeting (both each with its own campaign)
As Dot says - some over 50's have more disposable income than they did earlier in their life
However how many people adopt a new sport as an interest late in life? More likely they rekindle an old interest I think
So many of us were introduced to the sport of harness racing as teenagers

OOPS I put it in the wrong thread

[David Martin]

Hi Rick, it's great that you've heard the advertising. We'll take that as a positive, given we're just at the start of the campaign. We will be utilising a range of channels and forms of media to promote this event.


Hi Dot, we've conducted market research and have developed key themes for the target audience. Re-engaging with people who used to love the trots is definitely part of that. The ID is the pinnacle of our sport and we want people to be a part of it.


The Skybox will soon be sold out, if it's not already, so people should think about buying their tickets for the Toolern Room, etc., as the interest is only going to increase from here!


Cheers, David

[gutwagon]

Dot ,for the long term survival of our sport I think we need young people to get involved and stay involved all their lives. I'm not just looking at short term turnover boosts, I'm looking at getting new owners , trainers, breeders and drivers. Of course I would welcome people of any age. The campaign in my opinion seems concentrated on getting people to bet, not get involved. Most of the people that I know in the industry got involved as children, usually through family or friends involvement. I think our horses are our biggest attraction and asset , betting is just a bye product that provides the money to keep it going. I think we should be pushing the sport to young people. They should be pushing the pony trots in schools and trying to show children how good working with horses can be. I'm not suggesting encouraging kids to gambol, I'm suggesting getting them acquainted with horses and horsemanship .

About 20 years ago administration turned their focus almost solely to turnover, they didn't care if nobody turned up at the track to watch the races. The result was increased turnover but decreased attendances. The latter resulted in very few new people getting involved with owning, breeding, training etc.
Our main metro track is built to host about 1500 people, so if new people turn up as a result of the advertising and good exciting fields we will end up with 5000+ at Melton this Saturday night. The new people will struggle to see the races properly, struggle to get a bet on, struggle to get food and drinks and if it rains they will get drenched. They are hardly going to want to come back next week.
I would love to go myself this week but I wont because it will be overcrowded and uncomfortable. I will watch from home and bet via the mobile app, just as the administrators want people to do.

I know David will say I'm so negative. Don't get me wrong, I love this sport, I have had many of the best times of my life through this sport and have met so many great people and characters through my involvement in harness racing. I spend around half my income on owning, training and breeding horses. Most of the current administrators were not around during the good years and are not horse people so it's hard to believe they can fix the issues facing the industry.

[Messenger]

With a few scratchings the average field size at Bendigo on a Friday night was 6.2

[paul rowse]

Hi Kevin,
We agree 100% the kids are our future.
With that in mind our ID18 night has a huge focus on trying to attract families that may not ever had a reason to step foot on a trotting track before. The Inter gives us that platform thanks to Government Support.
The Club has also been working on an Art Activation Project with the City of Ballarat, Visit Ballarat, Delacombe Town Centre (DTC), representatives from local primary schools featuring Ballarat’s world renown street artist Travis Price (to give you an idea of Travis's reach he is currently designing a tour t-shirt for Pearl Jam)
The art activation named “Harnessing Creativity” includes an Art Competition, a month-long art display at DTC and artwork reincarnated into a Pop Art Horse display on heat night.
At this stage we have over 2,500 students participating and we hope the number keeps growing. Every child who enters the competition will receive a free family pass and a voucher to utilise in our Plate Up Ballarat Food Truck Area. The first 250 kids will also receive a free mini plaster horse painting kit for free.

[Messenger]

Good stuff Paul and all the Ballarat team

[Messenger]

Terang tonight, Swan Hill tomorrow night and Cranbourne on Thursday night
ALL only have 6 races and mostly small fields

[KTQ]

Dot ,for the long term survival of our sport I think we need young people to get involved and stay involved all their lives. I'm not just looking at short term turnover boosts, I'm looking at getting new owners , trainers, breeders and drivers. Of course I would welcome people of any age. The campaign in my opinion seems concentrated on getting people to bet, not get involved. Most of the people that I know in the industry got involved as children, usually through family or friends involvement. I think our horses are our biggest attraction and asset , betting is just a bye product that provides the money to keep it going. I think we should be pushing the sport to young people. They should be pushing the pony trots in schools and trying to show children how good working with horses can be. I'm not suggesting encouraging kids to gambol, I'm suggesting getting them acquainted with horses and horsemanship .

About 20 years ago administration turned their focus almost solely to turnover, they didn't care if nobody turned up at the track to watch the races. The result was increased turnover but decreased attendances. The latter resulted in very few new people getting involved with owning, breeding, training etc.

Point in red is very interesting. Can we begin an after school program where kids learn to drive the ponies?
Point in blue is too - a guy sitting on his couch at home watching on a screen is a far harder to sell to buy into a horse than the one at the track.

[KTQ]

Hi Kevin,
We agree 100% the kids are our future.
With that in mind our ID18 night has a huge focus on trying to attract families that may not ever had a reason to step foot on a trotting track before. The Inter gives us that platform thanks to Government Support.
The Club has also been working on an Art Activation Project with the City of Ballarat, Visit Ballarat, Delacombe Town Centre (DTC), representatives from local primary schools featuring Ballarat’s world renown street artist Travis Price (to give you an idea of Travis's reach he is currently designing a tour t-shirt for Pearl Jam)
The art activation named “Harnessing Creativity” includes an Art Competition, a month-long art display at DTC and artwork reincarnated into a Pop Art Horse display on heat night.
At this stage we have over 2,500 students participating and we hope the number keeps growing. Every child who enters the competition will receive a free family pass and a voucher to utilise in our Plate Up Ballarat Food Truck Area. The first 250 kids will also receive a free mini plaster horse painting kit for free.


the idea is fine but why does EVERYTHING always have to have a harness play on words??

[Messenger]

Point in red is very interesting. Can we begin an after school program where kids learn to drive the ponies?
Point in blue is too - a guy sitting on his couch at home watching on a screen is a far harder to sell to buy into a horse than the one at the track.

I have said it a million times Katie, if you have to get people to go to the trots before there is a chance of them buying a horse

[gutwagon]

Point in red is very interesting. Can we begin an after school program where kids learn to drive the ponies?
Point in blue is too - a guy sitting on his couch at home watching on a screen is a far harder to sell to buy into a horse than the one at the track.


I think they should be taking some pony trotters and retrained HERO horses around the schools in the larger cities just to show young people that harness racing exists. Also taking students on tours of leading stables and rides in the double seated cart. Maybe some will get their parents to take them to the trots. I don't think the face painting and carnival rides are getting young people interested in horses.

[paul rowse]

HRV hero horses are at Ballarat this Friday night. We are running a number of experience nights throughout the year where people can get up and personal with our participants.

[gutwagon]

Good idea Paul. I think the HERO program and the pony trots are two things that will help our sports future.

[Messenger]

Compare Shep (Fri) with Thursday's Cranbourne meet. We really have to decide how we are going to help/keep the East

Interesting to note for Shep that the 1690 races have a max of 11 runners while the 2190 races can have 12

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP210918&fromstate=vic

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=CR200918&fromstate=vic

[Amlin]

All suggestions welcome...sooner or later something has to be done



Compare Shep (Fri) with Thursday's Cranbourne meet. We really have to decide how we are going to help/keep the East

Interesting to note for Shep that the 1690 races have a max of 11 runners while the 2190 races can have 12

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP210918&fromstate=vic

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=CR200918&fromstate=vic

[Messenger]

I think it is bloody important.
One way that HRV can make meetings/races at Cranbourne and Warragul more attractive is by making them worth more.
They have used money to make different types of races more attractive - they can use money to make harness thrive and become more attractive to a huge chunk of our state

[Amlin]

90 horses across 12 races on the first two meets for the season at Cranbourne compared to 151 acceptors across 18 races at the two meets last year.

Ouch!

The removal of regular Saturday racing at Cranbourne will see these figures further drop this season in my opinion.




I think it is bloody important.
One way that HRV can make meetings/races at Cranbourne and Warragul more attractive is by making them worth more.
They have used money to make different types of races more attractive - they can use money to make harness thrive and become more attractive to a huge chunk of our state

[thepacingman]

Not being a local but how does traffic affect numbers at Cranbourne & Warragul? Example like from the west of Melbourne travelling across town. I'm guessing weekdays would be a hassle.

[Amlin]

Yes. Trainers out here may also allow 3 hrs to make a 90 min trip to Melton.

I believe we need to work towards a weekly race meet between YV, Cran and Wgl in five years. People will scoff but the current trend indicates it will be pretty grim in five years without something like this.

Plenty of spare boxes at Cranbourne but hobbyists have to relocate their job, house, family etc which is hard and those wanting to earn an income from the game need a weekly event within easy travel time as you can get at Melton to make the move viable.

Need to reduce the depend on visitors to the region like Shep and Mildura with more participants on the ground locally, in my humble opinion of course.



Not being a local but how does traffic affect numbers at Cranbourne & Warragul? Example like from the west of Melbourne travelling across town. I'm guessing weekdays would be a hassle.

[gutwagon]

The thought of driving through Melbourne keeps many trainers away from Cranbourne & Warragul, even if you live in the northern or western suburbs it's a nightmare to get there. It's a fact that will kill the sport in that area. Personally I think we should just shut those two clubs now and concentrate on the north , west and central clubs. Many people wont like the idea but the traffic will only get worse and the rest of the industry should not have to subsidize the east.

[Messenger]

It would be giving up on large part of the state/potential market.
The alternative is Kyle's idea:
"I believe we need to work towards a weekly race meet between YV, Cran and Wgl in five years"
Whereby there is enough local racing for trainers to base themselves in the East. If Mildura can thrive you would think a YCW conglomeration could too

[arlington]

Compare Shep (Fri) with Thursday's Cranbourne meet. We really have to decide how we are going to help/keep the East

Interesting to note for Shep that the 1690 races have a max of 11 runners while the 2190 races can have 12

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP210918&fromstate=vic

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=CR200918&fromstate=vic


6. FIELD LIMITS
6.1 – At all racetracks with a circumference of 900 metres and greater, a field limit of 12 starters will apply. At all racetracks with a circumference of less than 900 metres, a field limit of 10 starters in mobile races and 12 starters in standing start races will apply, pending restrictions at some venues.
6.2 – All races run over 1720m or less will be restricted to 10 starters at all venues.
6.3 – All restricted penalty races will be restricted to 10 starters.
6.4 – The HRV Board may determine on occasions that a feature race will be conducted with an increased field limit.

[Messenger]

Thanks Wayne, looking at those 1690 races again - they only had 11 runners including the emergency

[KTQ]

Welcome to WA where tracks are far spread out and country trainers have to drive hours to all meetings. The closest to our place is 30mins (besides Busselton which is a 650m track). Next is Pinjarra a minimum of 1.5hrs and then GP which is 2.75. Dad makes the 2 GP meetings and 1 PJ meeting most weeks when GP replaces BY. That's 12.5 hours of driving a week. Less meets at Bunbury is really hurting smaller country trainers

[Dot]

It would be giving up on large part of the state/potential market.
The alternative is Kyle's idea:
"I believe we need to work towards a weekly race meet between YV, Cran and Wgl in five years"
Whereby there is enough local racing for trainers to base themselves in the East. If Mildura can thrive you would think a YCW conglomeration could too

"Horse going crazy in the float"

"I wish programmers from hrv were in the car going to Cranbourne with me tonight they might understand why people don’t mid week night at Cranbourne my last time"

Kyle, Kev those are real life quotes from a trainer on Twitter stuck in traffic trying to get across town going to Cranbourne. If the east is to be retained then that weekly circuit needs to commence in much less then five years, and as Rick says it's not fair for the rest of the state to subsidise those 3 tracks, so a way to develop that cct without taking funding from other regions would need to be found.

[Messenger]

Of course the above traffic delay scenario could happen for anyone going to Melton or Geelong from the Yarra Valley or the SE.

In the AFL: Vic, SA and WA have subsidised QLD and NSW (and possibly TAS one day) with the view that in the long term it will pay dividends. We have to decide whether it is worth it in the long term. I remember (I think correctly) when Cranbourne was a popular track. It has certainly fallen away but it is in an area of huge population growth. I think HRV see a future for Cranbourne going on them receiving an Inter night

[Dot]

Which is perhaps one of the reasons the number of trainers in the South east has declined Kev. I don't think your AFL analogy quite fits here Kev. AFL was never strong in the states you mention as subsidised and the AFL has attempted to grow the game in them, and not everyone is in agreement with that policy.

The south east of Melbourne was a strong harness racing area that is in decline because of increasing urbanisation consuming land formerly used for the keeping and training of horses and other issues such as affordibilty and traffic associated with that. You can steer people into supporting AFL in regions with growing populations, darn hard to make affordable land available for keeping horses in urbanised regions of high population growth though. Cranbourne has the training centre of course but it was designed for the training of future trainers and is not very user friendly for trainers trying to train professionally or fit training in with a job. ( unless it's been modified since I last visited)

HRV did give Cranbourne an ID heat, and if I recall correctly have now restored Saturday Night as the feature night for harness racing at Melton for the vast majority of Saturday nights, the only night it appears viable for meetings at Cranbourne with regard to traffic so it's hard to know what HRVs intentions are.

[gutwagon]

The fact that Cranbourne has a large population in surrounding areas is irrelevant to HRV as they have clearly shown over the last 20 years that they are not interested in on course attendance . It's all about turnover so if an area doesn't have enough local trainers to fill race cards then they need to increase the amount of participants or cut the losses and stop racing in that area.

[Messenger]

Two $4k races and Two $5k races at Melton on a Saturday night is embarrassing - regardless of whether there were 5 metro races at Kilmore on Thursday

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX290918&fromstate=vic

[Dot]

1396 foals born in Victoria last season, 185 less then the previous season and the first time less then 1500, and likely Id say to be further reduced this season with a major nursery relocating a large number of their mares to NSW.

[Messenger]

I would have thought the fields may have been stronger for Cranbourne today
An all $7k meet and only Sunday traffic to get there

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=CR300918#CRC30091805

[Messenger]

The last at Melton tonight is not how things are supposed to work
It is a Vicbred Platinum Country Series final
The heats were at Stawell last Sunday but there was only 1 heat so the whole 9 could have run at Melton tonight
Instead we end up with a field of 4 after 3 of the 7 acceptors scratched

[Adaptor]

The last at Melton tonight is not how things are supposed to work
It is a Vicbred Platinum Country Series final
The heats were at Stawell last Sunday but there was only 1 heat so the whole 9 could have run at Melton tonight
Instead we end up with a field of 4 after 3 of the 7 acceptors scratched

Agreed Kev:
Four pacers for $10,000 is probably a great result for owners of those 4, but from an industry point of view it looks awful.

Here's one of the key differences between the way that HRV frame races, and what is called Conditioned Racing in the US.

I think this is how it works...correct me someone if I'm wrong-
With conditioned racing the track secretary (not the central body) assess the available horse population on track.
Many tracks have a lot of on-site accommodation for horses/grooms/trainers.
For Yonkers, Freehold and The Meadowlands there are massive training centers in New Jersey, within 30-40 minutes of these tracks where large numbers of horses are stabled.

So the races are framed for what the secretary knows is available.

We frame the races many weeks ahead, and hope that horses will be entered. This often results in last minute appeals for entries, or the dropping of the race.

If there was a way of predicting what horses were available ( even 2 weeks ahead) to enable races to be framed, it might be possible to frame the race to available horses, not the other way around.

All it would need would be for weekly stable returns (computerized) to include whether a horse is:
1. Just entered training
2 Ready to qualify
3. Ready to trial
4. Ready to race
5. Already racing
6. Ready to spell
and for the Conditions for races to be framed to match what is available.

As we have a small population for some classes, the return of standing starts would be needed to enable handicapping, or including 3 or 4 classes in a race ( ie C1,2,3 and 4).
You would have a race and owners would be able to get a start in a race.

[arlington]

The last at Melton tonight is not how things are supposed to work
It is a Vicbred Platinum Country Series final
The heats were at Stawell last Sunday but there was only 1 heat so the whole 9 could have run at Melton tonight
Instead we end up with a field of 4 after 3 of the 7 acceptors scratched

Heat/s for that series were set down for Yarra Valley on the Monday following Stawell as well Kev but obviously there weren't 6 or 7 horses in the east/south east to make up one heat.

[Messenger]

Very disappointing Wayne

[arlington]

No lack of noms for Shepparton this Sunday - may need to increase prize money for increased competition. :cool:

[Messenger]

Optimist!

More likely to decrease prizemoney to make less attractive

[arlington]

If an optimist means paying more down to last, I'm the epitome of. :D

[arlington]

The strapper looked over the Shepp noms during breakfast, "they could run 14 races".

I reply "I wonder how that would effect nom numbers for next week?"

Quick as a flash, "won't worry Wednesday as they're at Mildura".

I shake my head in disbelief at strapper's knowledge of the racing calendar. Thinking I might have to up her pay I stutter out "how did you know that?!"

"I've got a hair appointment booked for Wednesday"

[Messenger]

As I have said before - Mildura is a great little 'sub' state to the rest of Victoria whereby the industry keeps turning while most have a day off.

I have however noticed this season that a few southerners are being tempted by the $ on offer

[thepacingman]

Cranbourne strikes again.
Not a great advertisement for Saturday night racing.
Seven races, 47 starters.
Two races with eight, one with seven and four with only six.
Travelling trainers seem few and far between.
Another nail in their coffin.

[Amlin]

Cranbourne strikes again.
Not a great advertisement for Saturday night racing.
Seven races, 47 starters.
Two races with eight, one with seven and four with only six.
Travelling trainers seem few and far between.
Another nail in their coffin.

Especially for Tricodes night which (I guess) is top 10 for attendance for a Vic trots meet each year. And following on from another big crowd day at Yarra Valley on Melb Cup day which had small fields.

Perhaps they should have run a trainer incentive across those two meets, and sold a three meet entry pass including the Cranbourne Inter heat to the general public.

The Silver Chalice and Bruce Skeggs Cup once were staged at this meeting to give the trots card some extra polish.

There may be some who dislike the busy aspect of the night with things like the stables and limited warm up before events too.

[gutwagon]

Just more reasons that Cranbourne should not have an inter heat ! Their only hope of decent horse numbers is that trainers of heat runners might bring an extra runner with them.

[Messenger]

Pretty ordinary size fields for Gunbower Cup day

[gutwagon]

Pretty ordinary size fields for Gunbower Cup day
HRV want quantity not quality, they work on the old theory that punters will bet on 2 flies crawling up a wall !

[gutwagon]

What a great meeting at Cranbourne last night.
Average field size 6.3.
5 out of 7 favs won. longest win price for the night $3.10.
Average price for winners $1.93
And this meeting gets the prime slot of Saturday night over the much better meeting at Melton the night before.
I wonder how many trainers, owners and punters saw the other 2 codes on the night and decided to change over to them ?

[arlington]

HRV want quantity not quality, they work on the old theory that punters will bet on 2 flies crawling up a wall !

Not sure where you're going with that in reference to Kev's post.


Pretty ordinary size fields for Gunbower Cup day

May have been the Emma factor Kev. When noms were extended numbers shrunk, including the cup.

[gutwagon]

HRV don't seem to care much about small fields, they just want as many races as possible even if they only have 6 runners. Many of the 6 horse fields have 1 scratching so most end up with 5 runners. I suspect people may be nominating horses just to make sure there is enough for a race then scratching when fields come out.

[Dot]

Sadly it seems we are being left even further behind........

https://www.racing.com/news/2018-11-19/melbourne-to-host-rich-mile-race

[Messenger]

Nice money but 'the public voting in the field' seems like a gimmick BUT it could be a sneaky way of guaranteeing 10 Aussie starters

[arlington]

HRV don't seem to care much about small fields, they just want as many races as possible even if they only have 6 runners. Many of the 6 horse fields have 1 scratching so most end up with 5 runners. I suspect people may be nominating horses just to make sure there is enough for a race then scratching when fields come out.

It may appear that way Rick but pretty sure there would be sticky notes everywhere with the number 8 on them. First aim would be to have a third place dividend. I'd also imagine many participants might voice their disappointment when they've accepted but races don't get up.

Which way would you go - give up a racing slot through the day/night because we end up with a field of 5. Plenty of stuff to fill that space, would we get the slot back if they started betting on Ice Road Truckers?

[Dot]

Nice money but 'the public voting in the field' seems like a gimmick BUT it could be a sneaky way of guaranteeing 10 Aussie starters

The public get to vote from the list of nominations for 10 spots out of 14, the remaining four being allocated by race officials. With the potential for one fan to win $500,000 if they “win” the horse they vote for and it goes onto win the race that’s a pretty appealing gimmick Kev. I don’t imagine any Aussie racing fan will be voting for any other horse then Winx!

I don’t doubt that Melbourne are trying to ensure Winx’s swansong is in Melbourne and this is also payback for the Everest encroaching on the Melbourne Spring Carnival but you have to say it is a new way and likely to be very successful in Racing interacting with its existing and potential new fan base.

This race, one fan for doing nothing more then casting a vote can win half a million dollars, that is the same money that a whole field after 3 heats and actually years of preparation will divide amongst them for the ID final.

[Messenger]

I didn't read it all. It will no doubt be an appealing gimmick but a gimmick just the same. I would guess that there is more chance of no payout than is.

[Dot]

Not sure what you mean Kev, I’ve no doubt the organisers have every intention for the fans to get a share of the spoils ( my error earlier) looks like it is split into first, second, and third, do you think they would prefer to alienate fans by seeking not to distribute the fans share? Of course like in any “lottery” only limited participants can win, leaving many others to miss out if that’s what you mean?

Seems a pretty successful “gimmick”, Japan has been racing two “All Stars” races on a very similar public vote for part of the field selection from Japanese horses with the remainder of the spots allocated to foreign horses for around 60 years.

[aussiebreno]

If they manage to get Winx they wont have a full field

[Messenger]

Not sure what you mean Kev, I’ve no doubt the organisers have every intention for the fans to get a share of the spoils ( my error earlier) looks like it is split into first, second, and third, do you think they would prefer to alienate fans by seeking not to distribute the fans share? Of course like in any “lottery” only limited participants can win, leaving many others to miss out if that’s what you mean?

Seems a pretty successful “gimmick”, Japan has been racing two “All Stars” races on a very similar public vote for part of the field selection from Japanese horses with the remainder of the spots allocated to foreign horses for around 60 years.

I get it now. I was thinking IF they win the horse they voted for meant you could win any horse in the lottery (my bad)

[arlington]

We should be thankful the announcement wasn't next week. Perhaps the two Vic chairmen lunched during the Spring carnival :)

[gutwagon]

It may appear that way Rick but pretty sure there would be sticky notes everywhere with the number 8 on them. First aim would be to have a third place dividend. I'd also imagine many participants might voice their disappointment when they've accepted but races don't get up.

Which way would you go - give up a racing slot through the day/night because we end up with a field of 5. Plenty of stuff to fill that space, would we get the slot back if they started betting on Ice Road Truckers?
I think it shows they need to be doing something about horse numbers. Encouraging people to breed or import horses needs to be the number 1 priority for the next few years.
What have they done for breeders ? Waived the registration fee for foals seems to be all that has been done. And it's not clear if that is just a one off.
They increased the import fee a while back so that is not helping.
They need to offer a bonus payment for every foal registered for the next 5 seasons . And other type of incentives.
They need to stop people leaving the industry .

[Dot]

The waiving of the foal registration fee was announced as a one off way too late to result in the conception of any additional foals last season, and it appears that if there is to be an announcement that it will be continued that will also be too late to result in additional coverings. Combined with a policy from APG that prevents some breeders from utilising an industry owned sales vehicle for their yearlings and ongoing drought conditions in the north of the state I can only see a significant further drop in foal numbers next year, yet so far there has only been silence from HRV on policies to increase foal numbers.

[arlington]

No question from anyone, increased breeding numbers is priority. It might be relatively insignificant but the import fees were reduced, are less, for females?

I've questioned quite a few things about APG in the past, things like does APG get priority in the racing calendar. The marketing can be too over the top in that it isn't worth looking at a non sales purchase. There was a period where APG yearlings could get reduced futurity fees, not so home breds/sold on farm.

As for bonuses, whilst not a foal bonus, at the last round of CEO road shows David Martin did pose, should the first win bonus be paid out as a first race bonus?! Desperation(?). He'd gone through the breeding and racehorse numbers, showing how few starts many horses have before they're lost. Was/seemed a large number even allowing for injuries. The flow on effect would be people would reinvest in young stock/service fees.

I'll put this to the commercial breeders, just as a messenger (sorry Kev). Talking to a few owners who buy, some aren't completely happy with breeders getting a share of the first win bonus. Caveat emptor with the costs associated with the gamble after fall of hammer. Chicken or the egg?

[Dot]

There seem to be several question over APG, an additional one is the emphasis on 2yo series and whether the winners share of the purse is too high given the costs incurred by the majority to retain eligibility.

As for first win bonus being for first race or made easier to win is that really being reinvested in breeding horses or is that an assumption? Or does that just see a more rapid reduction in the existing racing population once they have got, in many instances their one big pay day. Perhaps the bonus is best spread out over a permanent reduction in foal fees, a first start bonus, followed by either a first win bonus and or a minimum number of starts achieved bonus.

Horses exiting racing need to be tracked better as to why, injury, handicapping, lack of local racing opportunities, not worth racing after bonus won, etc. Probably should be better tracking of horses entering the HERO program, does “too slow” mean too slow altogether or too slow to pay training fees for, but suited to owner/trainer/driver with lower expectations for them?

Not a commercial breeder but the first win bonus should go entirely to the breeder, they actually are most likely to do with it what is needed, breed more horses because that’s what breeders do, and not solely for a monetary gain but because that is what many enjoy doing, money is what makes it possible to do. Those owners you talk of who buy rarely see the real cost to a breeder of producing the yearling they have bought, the mare missed or slipped seasons, the foal died or was injured and unraceable before the sales or the mare dies and has to be replaced, and are often buying at less then cost to produce that foal, never mind cover the additional costs/losses of the breeder.

With many breeders racing their own they are getting the full bonus, trainer driver share as well if they do it all themselves. Owners who buy if they are so concerned at missing out on the bonus can revise down what they are prepared to pay at the sales for a yearling, I don’t see every yearling reducing by $7000 at the sales because a buyer won’t get the first win bonus.

Changes to the handicapping system have been in place already, and hopefully will be improved markedly soon, which extend a horses career and increase its ability to earn by dropping back into easier company should provide sufficient compensation to buyers missing out on the bonus and breeders will rarely see any of a horses additional money from stakes from the revised handicapping

[arlington]

Just quickly Dot, the owners I've referred to are breeders as well as buyers. They've bought when they've encountered the pitfalls in breeding you've mentioned, (or have bought to add to the team of homebreds) hence the thought bonuses should go to them. They're not sellers, of yearlings.
Would like to have more time right now to give thought to what you've written but for now, touching on the foals that don't change ownership. What would a race series that excludes sales horses do?

[gutwagon]

Dot , HRV's incentive to increase foal numbers seems to be just try to increase turnover and thus increase prizemoney. But at the same time they introduced the tiered prizemoney races that makes it much harder for breeders to recoup their costs with low stakes races and most of the high stakes races going to a small number of big stables.

They have been trying this increase turnover plan for over 10 years and it seems to be increasing every year but not solving any of the issues. Every new board looks for a quick short term fix to try and save their butts. We need long term plans, there is no quick fix.
Increasing foal numbers must be the number 1 plan, why try to increase demand for a product if you can't supply the product ?

[Messenger]

The last at Melton tonight is not how things are supposed to work
It is a Vicbred Platinum Country Series final
The heats were at Stawell last Sunday but there was only 1 heat so the whole 9 could have run at Melton tonight
Instead we end up with a field of 4 after 3 of the 7 acceptors scratched

Quoting myself I know but I wanted to point out that it is becoming an all too regular occurrence
The R10 County Series Final at Melton tonight has only 4 starters. There was only ever 1 heat at Ararat which attracted 7 runners

[gutwagon]

Quoting myself I know but I wanted to point out that it is becoming an all too regular occurrence
The R10 County Series Final at Melton tonight has only 4 starters. There was only ever 1 heat at Ararat which attracted 7 runners
They should have enough sense to put in the conditions that if there is only enough horses for one heat then the heat will become the final and be ran at Melton. They could ad the prizemoney to the final purse or use it somewhere else. Is it that hard ?

[Messenger]

As you have previously mentioned Rick - HRV want race volume so they are highly unlikely to scrap one

[arlington]

They should have enough sense to put in the conditions that if there is only enough horses for one heat then the heat will become the final and be ran at Melton. They could ad the prizemoney to the final purse or use it somewhere else. Is it that hard ?

Not so simple, similar to the series Kev initially posted about, other heats were programmed at another venue.

[Dot]

It certainly seems that the series is missing the mark and needs amending. Perhaps the heats should be amended to preludes with fresh nominations for the final and preference given to horses that contested a prelude.

It maybe that the finals for these should be held somewhere other then Melton if preludes amd fresh noms are called for though

[Dot]

Just quickly Dot, the owners I've referred to are breeders as well as buyers. They've bought when they've encountered the pitfalls in breeding you've mentioned, (or have bought to add to the team of homebreds) hence the thought bonuses should go to them. They're not sellers, of yearlings.
Would like to have more time right now to give thought to what you've written but for now, touching on the foals that don't change ownership. What would a race series that excludes sales horses do?

So what your saying Wayne is they want the bonus for themselves whether they breed or buy a horse? At what price range are they buying Wayne? Only at a level that ensures the breeder of the yearling they buy breaks even or makes a profit or at a level that they know from their experience that the seller has made a loss, if its the later they sound pretty selfish to me.

The sales races are funded by fees and commissions associated with the sales process and race series eligibility, how would a race for non sales horses be funded? Would non selling breeders be prepared to fund it by paying in as they do for the majority of stakes races in the US? Or should the homegrown series be amemnded to really be home grown and be restricted to stock that are raced by owner/breeders? Of course people who buy would complain about not being in eligible for that series particularly when their expensive sales purchase doesn’t measure up in the sales races.

[arlington]

It certainly seems that the series is missing the mark and needs amending. Perhaps the heats should be amended to preludes with fresh nominations for the final and preference given to horses that contested a prelude.

It maybe that the finals for these should be held somewhere other then Melton if preludes amd fresh noms are called for though

The missing heats were in the east/south east regions in both the cases Kev has brought up. How is that deficiency addressed, not program heats for those regions? Run the prelude format where series heats are set down for those regions only?

[Dot]

Increase the prize money in the final and include preference in the barrier draw for the final given to those who contest a prelude.

That of course is a quick fix for these races. The real problem has to be what is our strategy for the future of harness racing in the state and the south east in particular in the long term?

[Amlin]

With the dust now settling from the election we wait to see what the plan is...


Increase the prize money in the final and include preference in the barrier draw for the final given to those who contest a prelude.

That of course is a quick fix for these races. The real problem has to be what is our strategy for the future of harness racing in the state and the south east in particular in the long term?

[gutwagon]

Don't program heats of anything in the east or south east of the state. That will fix the issues. Increase foal numbers would be a good place to start but they don't seem to care much about that.

Maybee now that the board knows it's safe for 4 more years they might put in some longer term plans !

[Dot]

With the swing to the ALP it’s very likely they will govern Victoria for the next two terms and little doubt the future of harness racing in the state will be very much in their hands.

[arlington]

So what your saying Wayne is they want the bonus for themselves whether they breed or buy a horse? At what price range are they buying Wayne? Only at a level that ensures the breeder of the yearling they buy breaks even or makes a profit or at a level that they know from their experience that the seller has made a loss, if its the later they sound pretty selfish to me.

The sales races are funded by fees and commissions associated with the sales process and race series eligibility, how would a race for non sales horses be funded? Would non selling breeders be prepared to fund it by paying in as they do for the majority of stakes races in the US? Or should the homegrown series be amemnded to really be home grown and be restricted to stock that are raced by owner/breeders? Of course people who buy would complain about not being in eligible for that series particularly when their expensive sales purchase doesn’t measure up in the sales races.


Very interesting interpretation of what I've written Dot. What I am saying is if there isn't a breeder component to the bonus there's no having your cake and eating it too.

Honestly, are there any buyers who give a damm about what it costs the breeder? Food for thought - are there any breeders looking to top up or improve their broodmare band who freely up their own bid for a yearling filly from another breeder at the sales?

Are you saying there are buyers who head to the sales armed with the calculations that the value they've placed on a yearling pre sale has to be less than the cost of production otherwise they won't buy? I don't know of any and similarly I don't know of any buyers at the top end who slings the breeder if their purchase comes in cheaper than expected.

We need to incentivise owners whether they be breeder owners or purchases. The election result will see $6 mil going toward prizemoney, with an incentive being the abolishing of the $5K level (apparently the coalition promised the same). Is there $ left over to supplement breeders? If not before, the breeders association would have had D Martin's full attention a couple of weeks ago at the annual awards he attended to influence him to maintain lower prizemoney levels but up breeder's booty.

My thoughts on Rick's foal on the ground bonus. First question, what $ would it be? What $ would be enough? My limited economics' knowledge leads me to believe price is determined by supply AND demand. Isn't it the lack of demand that sees breeders suffering? Can you put a false floor in the market? Is that what a reserve is, where if not met the seller can take their lot home where they can race themselves? They don't have to sell to the bottom feeders you've alluded to Dot.

I loooove the idea of amending the homegrown series. Have harped on about it previously. No, not ruling out sales horses but running it as was intended i.e. for any horse that doesn't reach lofty heights. As it is now the 3yo series is really the 2yo series. The 2yo series is at the mercy of APG.
I think it was Kyle who brought up we could/should have a 4yo series. Simple, abolish the 2yo due to where it's scheduled now, run the 3yo as is and the 4yo at the same time as the 3yo.
For those yearling purchasers, or any owner, who do persist with a late developer who may be a tad slow, there's a bit of half decent prizemoney available for their patience.

Is there really much of a market for known slow horses? I recently spoke to an owner who trains, just after a win. I think it was their horse's second career win with this one at C0 level. They indicated there may be a market based around the smaller NSW tracks for this one. They weren't looking for someone else's slow one as a replacement.
Owners who don't pay training fees do often persist with one they bought or bred even though their brain tells them they shouldn't but I'm pretty sure the number of those participants has shrunk dramatically and the ones remaining aren't looking for further known slow ones.

[Dot]

It’s the literal interpretation of what you wrote Wayne, first you said they were buyers who didn’t want the breeder to share in the bonus for the horses they bought. Then you said they also bred to race where of course they collect the whole bonus so it appears it is just the breeder who sells that they want to miss out.

I’m saying I know of many prospective buyers, generally smaller owner trainers, who head to the sales with a budget that only permits them to buy stock that sells for below production cost. And they are doing so, in part at the very least, because they are aware that they can buy a horse for less then it costs to breed one. I don’t consider them “bottom feeders” just financially restricted or astute, as you say breeders can place a reserve on the horse, only there are some breeders who cannot because they can’t afford the cost of racing their own or breeding next years if they take this years home, and the buyers I know also know that. But none of the low budget buyers I know begrudge the breeders a share of the first win bonus as you said your buyers did.

All of the $6 million from what I have read is allocated for prize money increases across a number of race categories not just the $5k C races. I don’t recall any of the monies being allocated for specific breeder incentives, though of course it can be argued that increased prizemoney is a breeders incentive as well.

Registration costs can be seen as a tax on breeders and I’d be happy to see those go permanently but I have concerns about Ricks calll for a bonus for breeders for producing a foal. Whilst it starts with a foal it is racehorses we need and imo any bonuses for breeders should be weighted towards foals that go on to make and suceed on the track more so then just foals that arrive in this world.

Your understanding of economics Wayne whilst basically correct is rudimentary as indeed is mine but our industry is too complex to just rely on the laws of supply and demand to produce enough horses for our needs. We need a certain number of horses to make up fields and meet our obligations to the TAB and to that end our administration is beholden to directly stimulate breeders to ensure production of sufficient numbers of horses rather then rely on the indirect stimulus of additional prizemoney to ensure production. We do need to incentivise owners and whilst increased direct returns to breeders in the form of bonuses may result in lower returns to owners the flow in effect for prospective owners of the increased supply of horses should be a lower up front cost to purchase a horse.

I agree the homegrown series should be amended, certainly should not have group status with its restricted entry conditions, and should reward those who have toiled for little reward rather then those who’s earnings are low through limited racing.

I can’t imagine slow horses are high on too many participants wish lists, but as they will always exist it is up to us to ensure as good business practice and on animal welfare grounds that there are opportunities in the handicapping system for like to race like and a place for them.

[gutwagon]

Wayne, I think something needs to be done for the next 3 to 5 years to boost foal numbers urgently. Whether it be $ bonus for foals on the ground or change the first win bonus to a first start bonus, and it should all go to the breeder. Just increased prize $ will take too many years to have a flow on effect on foal numbers and that goes to owners not the breeders.

We need 8 to 10 races on every race card and at least 10 runners per race if turnover is to be encouraged, to do this we must almost double the horse population. As to how much the bonuses are that is up to how much money is available. I also think pushing the 2yo season back a few months to December has not been good for the industry, I would change it back to October like it was years ago .

I don't have a magic answer to increasing foal numbers but I know what they have been doing for the last 15 years is not working so something must change !
Having only small numbers of well bred yearlings available is driving up the prices of the good ones and driving owners away from the sport.

[Dot]

“We need to incentivise owners whether they be breeder owners or purchases. The election result will see $6 mil going toward prizemoney, with an incentive being the abolishing of the $5K level (apparently the coalition promised the same). Is there $ left over to supplement breeders? If not before, the breeders association would have had D Martin's full attention a couple of weeks ago at the annual awards he attended to influence him to maintain lower prizemoney levels but up breeder's booty.”

Wayne this is the break up of the additional prize money:


 Restrictedclassracesincreasedfrom$4000to$4500
 $5000CareerPenaltyracesincreasedto$7000
 Metropolitanclassracesincreasedfrom$16,000and$18,0 00to$20,000
 Semi-feature metropolitan class races increased from $20,000 to $24,000
 A$10,000minimumracestakewouldbeappliedonallmetropo litannightsatMelton  CountryCupprizemoneyincreasedby$222,500
 Pryde’sEasiFeedVictoriaCupprizemoneyincreasedfrom$ 200,000to$250,000
 Minimumpaymentforfifthtolastincreasedto$140

There are restricted races for juveniles so an increase of $500 per race for 2 and 3yos, I’m sure HRV know the exact break up but $5000 C races for juveniles compared to $7000 races appear to be one to three so between 1 and 2 a week, so between $100k to $200k increase per annum, there are no metro races programmed for juveniles so no increase there, how many semi feature metro races for juveniles? One a month maybe so $48k, 3 yo races at Melton in the new year already appear to be $10k so no increase there. Juveniles don’t participate in country cups or Victoria cup so no increase there, they do run unplaced so collect a little more from the $140 minimum payment. So all up what, around 10%, perhaps 15% of the increase at best allocated as prize money to juveniles? Not even an extension of the waiving of the registration fee, which would amount to around another 10% with falling foal numbers.

So Wayne I don’t think HBV had much input in determing this distribution of the increase. I don’t see anything in this that creates a buyer demand for yearlings that would increase returns to breeders or prompt an increase in the supply of yearlings.

Frankly I am surprised that the government has signed off on this as it predominantly creates, if anything, an increase in opportunity for older horses and a demand for older horses which are most likely to be sourced out of state. There’s a reason why the government legislated casino revenues in the US are directed predominantly to sires stakes racing, and some to overnights, and not stakes races, because investment in juvenile racing creates the greatest flow on economic benefits for rural areas of the state. I think the racing minister has dropped the ball, or as has been suggested elsewhere isn’t interested in harness racing.

But of course the known form of older horses as opposed to the mystery of juveniles is a better generator of turnover and it certainly appears this distribution of the increase is heavily weighted to older horses and increasing turnover which seems to be HRVs favoured policy over all else. Perhaps one day that increased turnover will flow on to incentives to breed horses but for now I can’t shake the feeling that this sole focus on turnover is the industry’s Titanic, a design that was flawed from the outset, and our iceberg will be insufficient horses in the future to make up fields, an occurrence guaranteed to sink our turnover. As Rick said what is the point in increasing interest in a product we will not be able to supply?

Only too happy for you David to drop in and tell me how I’ve got it wrong, what the actual allocation from the increase to juvenile racing is and how it will stem, perhaps even turn around the decline in the number of horses being bred, and how we will have sufficient horses in the future to sustain our turnover.

Sent from my iPhone

[arlington]

Whether it be the win bonus or some form of start bonus, taking it away from owners would be a negative stimuli. As it is now, the only reason a significant number of horses make the track is because of the win bonus enticement.

We have some forum contributors who are members of HBV, might they know if HBV asked for breeders to be considered with the $6m.

Am aware of the racehorse pool numbers we need Rick. Probably still rudimentary economics and I know not exactly the same but I think of the Aus car industry and trying to prop it's production up.

The sole(?) reason for the late start to the 2yo season is lack of numbers.
I know you are aware but we don't have metro juveniles due to lack of numbers...hence minimal distribution of the $6m there.

Why isn't the Vicbred Sires/Super sires, APG and Breeders Crown enough incentive to want to buy in and race a juvenile Dot? The breeder bonuses there aren't enough incentive to breed obviously.

I'll digress a little, another chat to a participant yesterday. I think relevant to the juvenile versus older $ distribution. This person/people, a very successful and Group 1 winning public trainer, award winning breeder as a seller and breeds to race as well. Was a neighbourly visit, I honestly didn't think to raise bonuses, was more about the horses, feed costs, foaling, joining, ups and downs, horses.

The word lament comes to mind, his expression of the go fast early effect on the lack of depth in our free for all ranks. Moving on, the apparent distribution weighted toward older horses would be about keeping those horses racing on. Maintaining the pool versus the mystery of unraced young stock, but the distribution probably more so due to the demand from within the ranks to raise prize money levels.

Right now I'm waiting for a phone call from the vets that will most likely decide if a mare races on or it's the breeding barn option. It's not too late, the way the $6m is to be distributed does have a bearing on me thinking about breeding this season. A breeder/win/start bonus has less influence, even in this case of us getting it. But if breeder bonuses ate into prize money increases/levels, that would.

Solving the short term...if you could add a breeder bonus (finding the money to) can you cease it later if it doesn't work? Sure, giving the full 7k to the breeder ups their yearling return by that amount. Sure, funds them to breed again. Where are the buyers/owners coming from? The bit about me as a breeder owner having my cake and eating it too. Can't see any joy in that when we're looking as though the sport is closing down. To me that's short term selfish thinking.

Thinking about solutions, quick ones that will last. May not be a quick solution and don't really like bringing this up as it should be all about ID18. Could well be the ssshh elephants in this thread, we need to slow horses down (shock horror!), and we need to be able to enforce removing repeat offenders who cheat to win from the sport for good (that did come up in the conversation yesterday). Less people participate as owners or breeders due to not believing they can get a horse that goes the speed necessary to have fun. It's a fact broodmare numbers have been reduced because of that. We've made a little inroad into that under the current administration.

Still waiting for the vet to ring, flicking through the stallion guide. Comes to mind the only time I've looked at a thoroughbred stallion guide is in the vet's reception. Can't say I've ever noticed how quick a stallion's gone. Might be due to them adding weight to slow them down. Even at weight for age, and she does get a gender advantage, does anyone care what time Winx has run in a Cox Plate? Does anyone know without googling?

As for level playing field, compare the AFL player whose first offence is allegedly a positive to cocaine. Apparently taken socially, low level, not on race day. Stood down, looking at 4 years.

Horse welfare has been raised. One of the most obvious abuse of a horse in relation to illegal performance enhancing drugs and substances/treatments is ignored. The effect on the clean horses chasing those juiced horses. Horses need to be trained harder, chase harder. That's poor. It's one of the main reasons people leave the sport and a reason horses are retired earlier.
We can have newbie naïve syndicates to make up for that but that's ignorance.

Perhaps this belongs in the sss thread but relevant to slowing horses down and if D Martin does pop in, this concept won't be beyond his comprehension.
Could we use the same technology incorporated in resistance training sulkies as a handicapping method? For those who don't know, put simply, these sulkies use hydraulics to create a drag, resistance.

Still waiting for the vets call (actually putting off shoeing a horse) these sulkies could be colour coded, a '10 metre handicap' might be red...goes on like the greyhounds or our saddle cloths. "Go the blue"

[gutwagon]

Dot I agree with you 100%.
And don't believe we have the 6 million until we actually get it , after all they were just politicians election promises !
I see nothing in that package to make me or anyone want to breed more horses. The big winner will be NZ as they will have to supply the extra horses .
None of the extra money is going to increasing the incentive to breed horses. Nothing is going to encouraging ownership through advertising etc.


Just more of the same solution that has been failing for the past 15+ years !
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result ! Draw your own conclusions with that !
Where will our future race horses come from if demand does increase ? Breed more you say ! With what ! The mares are all gone because nobody could afford to breed anymore ! The board needs to act now to ensure that foal numbers start to increase to cover the extra demand that they think they are encouraging. It takes 3+ years to create a 2yo racehorse from conception .

[gutwagon]

Wayne, the 2yo old season was originally pushed back for "animal welfare" reasons. At the time numbers weren't an issue. Now lack of numbers is delaying all 2yo racing. Breeder/owners have to wait longer for returns on their investments .
People still have mares in the paddock and are deciding whether to breed or not, if we wait any longer those mares will be gone. They will go interstate, to ridding horses, pets or the food chain.

The whole Vicbred series was designed to encourage breeding in Victoria so the bonus should go to the breeder in my opinion. Another bonus could be added for the owners.

[arlington]

Wayne, the 2yo old season was originally pushed back for "animal welfare" reasons. At the time numbers weren't an issue. Now lack of numbers is delaying all 2yo racing. Breeder/owners have to wait longer for returns on their investments .
People still have mares in the paddock and are deciding whether to breed or not, if we wait any longer those mares will be gone. They will go interstate, to ridding horses, pets or the food chain.

The whole Vicbred series was designed to encourage breeding in Victoria so the bonus should go to the breeder in my opinion. Another bonus could be added for the owners.

Do you think we could go against animal welfare policies and bring forward the 2yo season Rick? As to the reason, a moot point anyway, unless you believe it was that policy that reduced numbers? I have to say I haven't seen a significant number of young jets in a holding pattern waiting to swoop on the first trials. In fact there's probably a better opportunity to pick up prizemoney early as it is now. But you have to have a jet. The comments I've overheard at the first 2yo trials have been "looks like only APG 2yo's".

As for the mares in the paddock, yep we have four ourselves, possibly about to be five.
Of those mares in the paddock, what would be the percentage of the off spring that would be retained to race/go to the sales?
I doubt it's only me, and considering we'd breed to race, breeder bonuses do nought to book in a scan. For that matter neither do/have owner bonuses.
You might be able to twist my arm, what would a foal on ground $7K bonus do? Maybe I'm being pedantic, repetitive, you might say dumb or basic. If I think the offspring of those mares didn't have a chance of at least paying their way as race horses (knowing only too well most don't) $7K does nothing for me, especially at lower prizemoney levels. You could say I'm stupid, considering I wouldn't have expensive agistment costs, but still have costs that would be well over 10K if all were live foals and made it to the "are they any good stage". Service fee alone would be a minimum of 6-7K. We have tried Bettors before at 13K but not with one of these mares.
If selling, what should I think is a satisfactory return? Realistically do I think I'd get that? (I know, pre-empting your answer)
Perhaps all those mares you speak of are far better bred, conformed and performed than ours. Mine might be the ones that should be permanently retired from anything related to harness racing, which they realistically are.

I don't know...how did the dry broodmare register go? Did it get up, was it last season, again this season? Those taken up were for retaining or selling the offspring?

The set back of the 2yo season has also been due to the change from August 1 to Sept 1. Some people are suggesting putting the start back further. What might also chronologically coincide within that 15 year period is the shaming of people's bloodlines. You're doing a disservice to the sport if you breed from a one win mare, has that manifested into unless your mare has gone 56 a few times, don't wreck the breed? Of course depth has a lot to do with it, more so now, in the last 15 years, people are more wary of buying from "a sister to".

Anyway, it seems Ray doesn't agree with breeder/owner bonuses or stake money increases. Ok, keep stakes levels as is, use the $6m to promote and market, a 'la ID18 perpetually... yep, ok Kev, see if we can encourage some vive la france, might have to use a bit more than that $6m...might have to buy a free to air station.

Another real time, reality reality observation. I would consider this person a relatively successful pro trainer, no I don't know their GST or tax status, when a previous $3m Govt funding to be used solely for integrity was announced, they questioned why it was being used there and not going to prize money. Maybe it is I that's barking up the wrong tree.

I'd previously posed cheating to win as a wider horse welfare issue and it's effect on decreasing participation and horse numbers. You have no thoughts on that Rick?

Smoko over.

[Messenger]

Dot I agree with you 100%.
And don't believe we have the 6 million until we actually get it , after all they were just politicians election promises !
I see nothing in that package to make me or anyone want to breed more horses. The big winner will be NZ as they will have to supply the extra horses .
None of the extra money is going to increasing the incentive to breed horses. Nothing is going to encouraging ownership through advertising etc.


Just more of the same solution that has been failing for the past 15+ years !
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result ! Draw your own conclusions with that !

Rick, you would appreciate the email I received from Ray Chaplin
He bemoans the fact that the industry continues to focus on
"industry participant benefit” focus (predominantly stake money, programming and breeding incentives) rather than an outward “marketplace customer benefit” focus (increasing public interest and participation) which is the only way to achieve the breeding/product growth required to maintain industry viability

He rightly points out that HRA's national forum should have the single strategic focus
“What is the core problem which has created the demise of harness racing in Australia and how can it be addressed?”

[arlington]

Just more of the same solution that has been failing for the past 15+ years !
I wouldn't say prizemoney increases had been the focus of previous administrators in Victoria. The previous CEO (12 years and 7 months) oversaw swab levels decreasing by nearly 50%. That may have funded any increases?

“What is the core problem which has created the demise of harness racing in Australia and how can it be addressed?”
Ray's like a few in this forum just different views.
....an outward “marketplace customer benefit” focus (increasing public interest and participation)… would include doing your utmost to remove certain negative tags, catch phrases, attached to the product?

[arlington]

Pretty sure it was legendary driver John Campbell and now President of the Hambletonian Society bemoaning the speed at which races are now run. John suggesting we could look at ways to slow them down.

[gutwagon]

Wayne, I do think we still have too many cheats and the penalties are to light when they are caught. I would like some of the money to go to integrity and improving our image. I think the previous board was perceived to be corrupt by the majority of participants and a full clean out of stewards would be a good idea.

As for going too fast, removing the maximum quarter times would be a good start, it would allow tactics to play more of a part. Of course the big punters don't like that because it's harder to pic the winner so they seem to not want to upset them.
The tiered prizemoney system needs to go in my opinion. Horses can't pay their way with 4k races, it just isn't working.

As for which mares to breed from well that's just a gambol. They have to have good pedigrees if you want to sell at the sales but not everybody breeds to sell. Some pic stallions and crosses that may produce the best racehorse, these foals often don't appeal to yearling buyers.
Big stables dominating the juvenile races is a big problem too, that turns many small time breeders away.

I agree that we must get people back to the track but people seem to have short attention spans nowadays and want no wait time between races and home comforts so that will be hard to fix.

[KTQ]

In WA, trainers buying high priced proven horses and bringing them over. It used to be that those horses just raced in Perth but the trainers are now traveling to all country tracks with exception of maybe Busselton and Collie. There are fewer and fewer chances for small trainers to win races and fewer and fewer owners are breeding because there is no return.



Even I sit here and think why are we bothering. We get a Jack Mac - the best horse we've ever had and will have. We see him as a yearling and buy him. pay his paddocking from a yearling, pay his breaking and then his training and the costs along with it and watch as we see him develop and realise he could be anything. We think This is it, here is our chance . He pays us back with some amazing wins and then all the top NZ horses are bought and brought over and the dream is done.



Take a look at the 4yo classic field at GP Friday and the trainers with horses in the race. How many hobby trainers? Theres Kristian Hawkins and my dad with Jack. Add up the purchase prices of the horses in that race. King of Swing cost $400k alone. There is just no chance these days, beyond a fluke, of anyone getting a super horse because you get one and then horses are bought to beat it. Get that super horse and it goes back to luck. The thing is that we're the lucky ones. Wr can actually afford to go NZ and buy a few yearlings to race or prop up our breeding stock.



Why would anyone else breed their backyard mare? Why would anyone breed their well bred mare to sell when theres 5 or 6 or 7 NZ ones that will come over and relegate your champion to 7th best of its age group.



The thing is there is nothing wrong with trainers buying high priced horses to race. It is their livelihood after all But fundamentally from a participant standpoint it is killing grassroots racing. so there is something wrong with it.


what's the fix? Could we tax those horses 20% of purchase price and put it into stakemoney for WA bred horses or hobby trained races?

Do we enforce a professional trainer tax?
Do we enforce a 20% WA bred horses in every stable rule?
Do we create races for trainers with under x amount of horses in work?





Last point. Has the industry done an in depth and statistically significant study for EACH state into to why foal numbers are falling and punting dollars are going elsewhere or are we just going on inclination and opinions. Cart before horse wont solve a thing.

[Messenger]

Katie, following your post, I thought I would examine the Inter heats to quantify the NZ influx
I didn't count NZ visitors just here for the carnival (so -7)
Of the other 53 runners, 26 are NZ bred so we are talking Half

After 30 years of big import numbers you might have thought that we should now have quite a few strains of their 'superior' bloodlines in Oz
Have we not imported enough fillies?
Or is it simply a case of NZers being like Take-Away Food
- you cannot force people to cook?

[Dot]

You probably need to look at the dams of the Australian runners Kev. I’d hazard a guess that the vast majority of Kiwi imports were geldings imported to take advantage of the racing opportunities with no thought to future breeding. And of the fillies I think many returned to NZ for breeding at the end of their racing days.

Interesting to compare the state of our industry with that of France. In short the wants of individuals have been facilitated downunder as opposed to ensuring the needs of the industry are met as France has done with its protectionist policies. Only for very short periods in history has France allowed imports, quickly closing the door, only limited horses are permitted temporarily in France for feature races, and must be entire males or females, that is prospective breeding stock, to contest the elite level races. Stallion books are limited and semen transport is not permitted, and all stock for breeding must meet a minimum standard in performance and pedigree to be bred from, and are culled if their offspring don’t measure up. 10 is the compulsory retirement for a race horse in France and then these horses can be found racing elsewhere in Europe, otherwise it’s not a simple task to purchase racing or breeding stock in France for export.

I don’t disagree with what Katie has written or is suggesting but it probably needed doing a long time ago. Trying to introduce those things now would need a very determined administration for its very likely to face a strong legal challenge from those who have found their niche in the industry buying and racing expensive imports of proven ability.

[Dot]

Distribution of QLD prize money increase

https://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=38900

Certainly a different tack to HRV. I suspect Wayne will not be moving to Qld any time soon

[Messenger]

Of the 26 original Oz starters in the Inter (I am sticking with the scratching but not including the USA horse) only 4 are from NZ mares (15%)

[Messenger]

You could say it is worse when it comes to Sires
Before the scratching there was only 2 Southern Hemisphere stallions represented - now there are 3
For A Reason (AU) Skyvalley (NZ) Courage Under Fire (NZ)

[arlington]

Distribution of QLD prize money increase

https://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=38900

Certainly a different tack to HRV. I suspect Wayne will not be moving to Qld any time soon


Would the whole Qld harness racing package make you Dot?

[Dot]

I’m not a fan of heat, humidity, hendra or Queensland itch Wayne so no not likely to move to Qld but I imagine quite a number of those already residing there are happy with the whole package.

[arlington]

I’m not a fan of heat, humidity, hendra or Queensland itch Wayne so no not likely to move to Qld but I imagine quite a number of those already residing there are happy with the whole package.

It's a way of getting around the C 5K level but I'm with you Dot, cane toads, bats and rashes do nought for me.

[Dot]

Oh yes forgot the cane toads, No.........

[Dot]

Whilst I still don’t think I could reside permanently in Qld I am ok with visiting, and perhaps a mare or too of mine might not mind living in Qld full time. Whilst Wayne and maybe others don’t like the bonus schemes Qld have certainly upped the anty and have it all over everyone else now if they didn’t already with their bonus scheme.

The bonus may be a way round the $5k C races there Wayne ( they aren’t all $5k I saw some of $7800 to so those will still be more then Vic when the $5k goes to $7k.) but it looks a very efficient and inticing way to do it. There’s no age restriction just $10k bonus for first win and a $7.5k. bonus for a second win in a subsequent season. In form horse could win both in a short period straddling Aug/Sep. ( not enough for Bettors Delight but enough to go to Art Major that time of year!)but for most there’s a considerable incentive to keep racing for at least the length of time it takes to win the second bonus thus keeping owners with horses of marginal ability keen to chase a second big pay day.

So compare to Vicbred, one bonus only of $7k and only to 4yo, only half a bonus so $3.5k to horses 5yo and older. Where’s the incentive to keep a horse of marginal ability racing after that one big payday? In fact putting all 2win3yos into C1 class could see C0s eligible for a bonus spend less time in the racing pool then they did before. The incentive is in the prize money you say Wayne? But we know about half don’t race, and the next biggest group win only one race so after they win that race and first win bonus what keeps them going to seek a second win? It’s not Metro prizemoney, or country cups or Vic Cup obviously these are 1 win horses. So it’s C class ( ok they can race r class but we discussing 1 win horses here so no bonus for either state in R class)

So in Qld first C class win ( any age) in $5k C race nets approx $2700 prize money plus $10k so $12700 ( and it might have been $7800 C race so possibly $1400 more, $14100 total. In Vic first C class win will be in min $7k race so approx $3990 win prizemoney, so $1300prizemoney more plus $7k bonus so about $11k all up, if horse is under 5yo. First win would need to be in $10k C race in Vic to take prizemoney and bonus over total for $5 k C race in Qld but would still be less then $7800 C race and bonus in Qld.

Second Win in C class in Vic nets prize money only, so min $7k race equals $3990 total. Second win in Qld in a subsequent season in $5k C race nets $2700 prize money plus $7500 bonus for $10200 total. I guess the kicker is some horses if they win their first race early in the season may have won a few more eligibility for the second bonus rolls around and find it very difficult to win that second bonus, but as written previously win late in the season and eligibility rolls around again pretty quickly. Obviously different to you Wayne but anything I get from increased prizemoney is likely to be small amounts, hopefully regularly, and disappear paying the regular bills. But a large bonus is more likely to see me buy a bigger ticket item such as a service fee, yearling or new race bike!

Have to hand it to you QLD imo you have this all over VIC, have one mare just foaled and another with a negative test, will have to think seriously about not covering them in Vic this season and shipping them to Qld to start fresh next.

[arlington]

Whoa, hang on Dot. From the start I was relaying what others had said, the Vic win bonus going totally to the owner when they've purchased. Obviously this is in total contrast to it going wholly to the breeder as a suggestion.
I agree the Qld scheme is pretty good. However it still focuses on incentivising owners and the flow on is breeding. Would you like me to say, yep no worries, if I was already in Qld I'd be happy with the scheme but wouldn't be if the possible 17500 went wholly to the breeder? I'd agree, if an owner gets 15750 it would be selfish and short sighted to begrudge the breeder 1750.
I haven't scrutinised as you have, will the number of individual horses that win the bonuses increase compared to the former? Will it be shared around more? Will be interesting to see what the QBred yearlings bring this season. I imagine there will be the same % that will still be running around in $3000 races.

I'm all for democracy, if the two alternatives were put to the people, which way would Vics have gone?

[arlington]

No Peter V in sight but what if Vic came up with bonuses on placings, maybe 1st and 2nd? Share it around more, include 3rd. Might that increase field numbers?

For the record, there's been a couple of integrity actions in both states very recently that incentivise me more than win bonuses. You still have to win. And for the record (ii) we took on a filly knowing she was ineligible for her first win bonus, no cream on our cake.

[Dot]

Thought in your more recent posts Wayne you were in favour of extra funds going to prizemoney, didn’t you say you wernt incentivised by bonuses to buy or breed but were incentivised to do so by by prizemoney?

Chalk and cheese the difference in how the additional money is being used in Victoria and Qld. Higher assessed horses are the big winner in Vic where’s as maiden and lowly assessed horses bred in Qld win out there, It was only around 10 percent of the foal crop that went through the sales, though with declining numbers it may be a higher percentage now but with the majority of horses raced by their breeder the distinction between breeder and owner is largely moot. Though in these modern times the administration could treat the breeder owner and buying owner differently if they wanted. Regardless, there needs to be a stimulus that doesn’t exist sufficiently now to arrest the decline in foal numbers as without horses we can not put on the product.

I don’t know if there will be more horses win their QBRED bonuses then there were previously Wayne because that comes down to programming. Have to say I always thought it was a bit of a red herring when David Martin said people wanted the $5k races retained because it was easier to win a bonus in a $5k race. It doesn’t matter if it’s a $5k or a $7k race what makes it easier to win a bonus it is if the race is programmed for horses that haven’t won a race. Don’t know enough about how QLD
do or intend to program their races.

Not sure if it was intentional or not, but it is a big incentive in Qld to have your QBred maidens race in the last month or so of the season and into the first couple of months of the new season, a period when traditionally we struggle for horse numbers.

I in favour of democracy too Wayne but I suspect the only vote we’ll get on what’s on offer in QLD versus Vic will be by people voting with their broodmares feet.

[Dot]

The Westbred bonus scheme pays out on places as well as wins but even though I live in WA I haven’t got any Westbreds so I havent paid much attention to the details, though plenty of people have told me it’s a very good scheme. That said foal numbers are still in decline in WA, so perhaps not good enough.

The latest integrity infringement sadly makes me shake my head and ask will they/we ever learn? And it does make me wonder if I should breed any more.

[Dot]

RNSW and Peter V’Landys have returned serve to RVLs planned new $5m race in the Autumn with the announcement of a new $8m race in October.

“The Herald understands the race could be part of a tri-code approach to a weekend of racing excellence, which would include the Million-Dollar Chase for the greyhounds at Wentworth Park and a million-dollar harness racing event at Menangle.”

Full story

https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/racing/turf-war-randwick-to-host-new-8m-race-as-sydney-looks-to-rival-melbourne-spring-20181202-p50jq6.html?__twitter_impression=true

[Dot]

Another “tease” from Chris Roots in the SMH


“The race will funded by a new revenue stream for racing that also paid for the Million Dollar Chase for greyhounds in October and a $1 million harness event that has yet to be announced.”


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/racing-nsw-s-7-5m-golden-eagle-lands-on-derby-day-20181205-p50kdt.html

[aussiebreno]

Another “tease” from Chris Roots in the SMH


“The race will funded by a new revenue stream for racing that also paid for the Million Dollar Chase for greyhounds in October and a $1 million harness event that has yet to be announced.”


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/racing-nsw-s-7-5m-golden-eagle-lands-on-derby-day-20181205-p50kdt.html

My hope is it is a return of the Ben Hur. 3000m at Menangle.

[Messenger]

I'm with you Breno - anything that decreases the likelihood of leader domination
(The TAB and Sky would probably prefer a 300m race)

[Messenger]

Another “tease” from Chris Roots in the SMH


“The race will funded by a new revenue stream for racing that also paid for the Million Dollar Chase for greyhounds in October and a $1 million harness event that has yet to be announced.”


https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/racing-nsw-s-7-5m-golden-eagle-lands-on-derby-day-20181205-p50kdt.html

The 'Eagle' may have crash landed.

Racing NSW is on a war footing with its Victorian counterpart and its biggest supporter after Tabcorp pulled its sponsorship for next year’s inaugural $7.5 million Golden Eagle.

http://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/TranslateArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2018%2F12%2F11&entity=ar03307

[Dot]

Have to wait and watch I guess.

Can’t help but think of the recent Opera House stoush for the Everest barrier draw and the philosophy any publicity is good publicity. Read in an another article that the Tabcorp sponsorship is reportedly $500k, can’t see that stopping V’Landys putting on the race.

[Messenger]

Where was the other $7m coming from?

[Dot]

Don’t know, the original press releases made reference to a new funding source that would be revealed after Xmas.

[Messenger]

And the first link talks about

The idea could be funded by a new bet type that may be coming on line in the new year through the TAB. Tabcorp would not comment on any developments of a new bet type last week.


https://amp.smh.com.au/sport/racing/turf-war-randwick-to-host-new-8m-race-as-sydney-looks-to-rival-melbourne-spring-20181202-p50jq6.html?__twitter_impression=true

If that was the case we're talking Tabcorp again

[Dot]

Yes but a new bet type that generates additional turnover that racing is then entitled to a share of is different to a sponsorship whereby TABCORP either gifts the money or receives other benefits for handing it over as a sponsor of the race.

Not in the age article but racing.com I think mentioned $500,000 as being the sponsorship amount from TABCORP, I’ve no idea how or where the rest is coming from but I can’t imagine Peter V’Landys announcing a $7.5m race that he isn’t guaranteed the bulk of the funding for. No doubt there is a stoush between Vic and NSW, have to wait and see how it turns out, but I still feel this has a lot to do with publicity for the race.

[Messenger]

I cannot see how a 'turf' war between the 2 states is good for their industry, it would seem as though their code is as incapable of working together as ours

[Dot]

Why not Kev? Isn’t it just competition as exists in many other industries, usually to the benefit of the consumer? V’Landys initiatives have added $20.5 million ( oops that’s actually $25.5m)to the prizemoney pool in both states and generated a renewed interest in the industry. How would just maintaining the status quo be better?

Some might say this is all at the top end of town and for the most part it is, not likely to see too many battlers in these races but it isn’t actually impossible, but both states have quite recently announced prizemoney increases across the board as well.

[Messenger]

Just my opinion, I think competing with iconic races does nothing for the sport. As pointed out in the media - the best jockeys cannot be at both meets

[Dot]

You don’t think that $7.5m won’t bring enough of the best jockeys in the world to make the jockey pool big enough Kev?

[Dot]

Betting declines, purse cuts in France.

http://www.harnesslink.com/Europe/France-cuts-purses-by-11-percent

They’ve stopped simulcasting races from Yonkers on Sundays, have to wonder if interest and support for Australian trots races will be effected.

[Messenger]

You don’t think that $7.5m won’t bring enough of the best jockeys in the world to make the jockey pool big enough Kev?

You will always have a big jockey pool even without internationals but as for the best being in 2 places at the same time :D
Sounds a bit:

[Messenger]

Page 2 of the Age this morning confirmed that the sponsorship is only $500k and that the likely replacement is Crown Casino - they need something to counter all Star Casino's sponsorships

[Dot]

You will always have a big jockey pool even without internationals but as for the best being in 2 places at the same time :D
Sounds a bit:

But don’t you think the industry in BOTH states will benefit most from having TWO big meetings on at the same time even if the jockey pool, which is likely to be expanded by internationals is divided? The two big races are age specific so don’t impact on the horse pool for each other though granted the pool for support races may be stretched, but that should provide opportunities in the long run for more horses.

Kev your always on about the gap between races oncourse and what do patrons do inbetween races, well presumably here they watch the races from the other state on the big screens and bet on them. Victoria’s Derby get some international coverage but don’t you think the Golden Eagle will get a whole lot more? With flow on effects for concurrent meetings? More international betting then just “the big one” of the Melbourne Cup means more revenue for the industry.

And that’s not just good for the gallops but harness as well, in NSW at least harness is guaranteed by legislation a fixed percentage of the total turnover pool. Not so cut and dried in Vic, but pretty sure Vic harness also benefits from increased turnover on gallops.

Second year of the Everest and did wagering decline on Vics Melbourne Cup Carnival? No went up 1.5%.

But hey you’d rather not innovate just because a few of the best Australian jockeys may not ride at Flemington!

[aussiebreno]

The Everest certainly got a few more of my mates into racing and they were betting at Caulfield on the day the Everest was on when this time 2 yrs ago they wouldnt have bet anywhere. In addition they now bet other weekends on both Syd and Melb when they probably wouldn't have if not for interest gained from things like Everest and Country Championships etc.

[Messenger]

But don’t you think the industry in BOTH states will benefit most from having TWO big meetings on at the same time even if the jockey pool, which is likely to be expanded by internationals is divided? The two big races are age specific so don’t impact on the horse pool for each other though granted the pool for support races may be stretched, but that should provide opportunities in the long run for more horses.

Kev your always on about the gap between races oncourse and what do patrons do inbetween races, well presumably here they watch the races from the other state on the big screens and bet on them. Victoria’s Derby get some international coverage but don’t you think the Golden Eagle will get a whole lot more? With flow on effects for concurrent meetings? More international betting then just “the big one” of the Melbourne Cup means more revenue for the industry.

And that’s not just good for the gallops but harness as well, in NSW at least harness is guaranteed by legislation a fixed percentage of the total turnover pool. Not so cut and dried in Vic, but pretty sure Vic harness also benefits from increased turnover on gallops.

Second year of the Everest and did wagering decline on Vics Melbourne Cup Carnival? No went up 1.5%.

But hey you’d rather not innovate just because a few of the best Australian jockeys may not ride at Flemington!

I don't think that there shouldn't be another meet and the jockey spread is not really what I am on about - I just fancy Derby Day being Derby Day, Cup day - Cup Day, The Tour de France ..., Wimbledon .....

I am just an old fuddy duddy

[Dot]

Pre election prizemoney increases confirmed.

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/media-releases/december-19-prizemoney-increase-for-victorian-harness-racing-from-1-january-2019/

Whilst prizemoney increases are most welcome I have to say that I am disappointed that exactly zero percent has been allocated to directly defray costs associated with breeding.

[Dot]

Not sure what you mean Kev, I’ve no doubt the organisers have every intention for the fans to get a share of the spoils ( my error earlier) looks like it is split into first, second, and third, do you think they would prefer to alienate fans by seeking not to distribute the fans share? Of course like in any “lottery” only limited participants can win, leaving many others to miss out if that’s what you mean?

Seems a pretty successful “gimmick”, Japan has been racing two “All Stars” races on a very similar public vote for part of the field selection from Japanese horses with the remainder of the spots allocated to foreign horses for around 60 years.

The Arima Kinen is the race RVs new $5m mile race next year is modelled on. I imagine they would be very happy if they could get results like this!

“The world's biggest race meeting for 2018!!

Arima Kinen meeting at Nakayama today
100,189 attended
Betting turnover on race ¥43,664,039,500 (£310m / €345m / US $392m)
Betting turnover on meeting ¥ 56,146,520,600 (£400 / €444m /US $505m)

Congratulations JRA and all the fans!”

[Dot]

Due to cut backs by the PMU Victorian trots will no longer be broadcast or bet on in France from 1/1 which can’t be good news.

No idea were our industry goes from here but I’m beginning to think we need Tabcorp to introduce in the run betting. That way the “glorious” uncertainty of pacers pacing and trotters trotting and standing starts and the length of our races become an asset with punters being able to bet multiple times in the one race which you’d think would help counter the apparent done and dusted in 30 odd seconds appeal of dog racing.

That and huge pick six pools!

[Messenger]

Due to cut backs by the PMU Victorian trots will no longer be broadcast or bet on in France from 1/1 which can’t be good news.

No idea were our industry goes from here but I’m beginning to think we need Tabcorp to introduce in the run betting. That way the “glorious” uncertainty of pacers pacing and trotters trotting and standing starts and the length of our races become an asset with punters being able to bet multiple times in the one race which you’d think would help counter the apparent done and dusted in 30 odd seconds appeal of dog racing.

That and huge pick six pools!

That hurts

[Dot]

So does our TAB showing more overseas dog races and less trots races.

[Messenger]

Our TAB has no interest in any of the codes. If they could get the punters to bet on coin tosses - every 5 secs, they would love it.

[Toohard]

Don't know how much France contributed to HRV income but read it says $88 million was wagered last year (international..includes NZ I guess).. nearly 10% of total. Appears the $3m extra State Govt contributed may be swallowed up by loss of France?

Turnover doesn't appear to be a decent guide to how much benefit the industry derives anymore. TAB pays more back to industry than corps (3 times more I believe). Corp turnover up but TAB turnover down means less goes back into industry.

Someone else suggested a new measuring stick (Nick William's from memory). 'Return to industry' rather than (or along with) turnover.

Interestingly I read TAB hold a licence to operate an exchange but have never used it. Maybe too late to now with Betfair well entrenched here. But with the continuing trend away from the TAB (especially pari mutual) to the corporates (which further erodes to return to the industry) something needs to be done?

Harness Racing is too reliant on the TAB nowadays especially with our low 'market share' (12%). I see Ladbrokes, bet365, Betfair, etc advertising up at the dogs and gallops and sponsoring races. See nothing but TAB at trots. Believe not current admins fault as deals done before their time giving TAB exclusive rights.

HRV Annual report shows TAB part of income falling. Way I see that means that if turnover stays the same but move more to corps, every $3m lost from TAB income is replaced by $1m from corps... $2m loss to industry.

[aussiebreno]

Don't know how much France contributed to HRV income but read it says $88 million was wagered last year (international..includes NZ I guess).. nearly 10% of total. Appears the $3m extra State Govt contributed may be swallowed up by loss of France?

Turnover doesn't appear to be a decent guide to how much benefit the industry derives anymore. TAB pays more back to industry than corps (3 times more I believe). Corp turnover up but TAB turnover down means less goes back into industry.

Someone else suggested a new measuring stick (Nick William's from memory). 'Return to industry' rather than (or along with) turnover.

Interestingly I read TAB hold a licence to operate an exchange but have never used it. Maybe too late to now with Betfair well entrenched here. But with the continuing trend away from the TAB (especially pari mutual) to the corporates (which further erodes to return to the industry) something needs to be done?

Harness Racing is too reliant on the TAB nowadays especially with our low 'market share' (12%). I see Ladbrokes, bet365, Betfair, etc advertising up at the dogs and gallops and sponsoring races. See nothing but TAB at trots. Believe not current admins fault as deals done before their time giving TAB exclusive rights.

HRV Annual report shows TAB part of income falling. Way I see that means that if turnover stays the same but move more to corps, every $3m lost from TAB income is replaced by $1m from corps... $2m loss to industry.
Yep big problem, good post Paul.
Why are TAB and Corporates turnover fee only at 3% and 1% but posting insanely big profits while the ones producing the product are dying? A higher fee needs to be charged for use of the product. Government is letting down these industries with the race field legislation. While the corporates lowly 1% gets punters better odds so one could argue its good for punters, there also needs to be some legislation that markets must be framed to a certain % and any higher attracts a large fine so as to protect the better odds. Corporates will still turn a tidy profit, but more importantly still have a product in 50-100 years.
These industries that give so many low skilled workers jobs won't exist without a change to the distribution mix on turnover. With technology coming into play and replacing so many low skilled jobs our industry will be one of the least affected for low skilled workers. That is probably the political angle the powers that be need to take to governments so that we still have a sport in 50years time.

[Dot]

Don’t think it was ever revealed what HRV made from exporting trots to France, commercial inconfidence claimed buy John Anderson. As I understand it we make considerably more from NZ. Given that the PMU has cut the product to save money I’d have to assume it was not wildly profitable for them so presumably not wildly profitable but a little icing on the cake for us.

Total turn over isn’t how HRVs share of the joint venture is calculated, revenue comes into it some how so yes with different rates for TAB and corporates it does make it pretty difficult for those of us following along from home to follow so I’d be all for an easy marker such as return to industry. Surely the point of consumption tax has seen a better return from the corporates to industry? With their reduced take out and ability to market I’m not sure that a dollar wagered on the corporates would be returned in full to the TAB if the corporates were no longer in the market place. That said I wonder how long they can exist on there business model in this marketplace. They set up amongst a virgin population to plunder and in effect that is what they have done, there’s only so many punters coming of age or migrating once they gone through the existing population and barred the successful punters. That Corporates predominantly service the addictions of losing problem gamblers is probably the best measure to push with government, along with as a Brenno said the employment opportunities.

But that in itself Brenno is an increasing problem, back when low skilled people worked on assembly lines in un air conditioned factories, or worked the land by hand or on an open tractor working in a stable was seen as a very desirable alternative. But not now with many seeing stable work as being menial tasks in a largely unprotected from the elements workplace and often with difficult hours to boot. Many trainers, particularly TB already struggle to find appropriately skilled staff.

[Toohard]

Hi Dot

Happy New Year!

Yes not based on turnover but revenue. Dropping off every year so turnover must form part of the equation.

Don't think much (if any) of POCT is returned to industry. Not in Vic anyway. Tried to attach pic so hopefully works but goes to hospitals and charities. Bit above says 1.5% total gaming tax revenue returned to industry? So 1.5% of 15% ? Guess that's the $3m extra state govt handed out to HRV.

[Dot]

Hello Paul Happy New Year. Can’t say I understand Vics JV agreement other then it seems complex, not favourable to harness and has many elements out of our industrys control. NSWs fixed percentages seems so much more straight forward and who knows how convoluted WA will end up when it’s TAB is privatised. Government have said the industry would be no worse off but hey I wonder if they said that in SA too.

As I understand it Paul the $3million ( actually $6m over 2years) promised at the election ( and said to be matched by the coalition) and now delivered by Pakula is from the POCT, so from the document you’ve posted was due to us anyway in the agreement to introduce the POCT so really Pakula promised and delivered the industry nothing with the election

[Messenger]

Ray Chaplin of Equine Excellence has done an interesting Assessment of HRV's performance which is concise and interesting to read
If any one would like a copy to read email him at chapray@bigpond.net.au

[gutwagon]

So HRV's plan and history of mainly trying to increase turnover is helping the corporate bookies more than anything else. The corporate's seem to be getting most of the new business and the industry misses out !

They need to encourage participants and the public to only bet with the TAB, they should be informing all registered people that they are short changing the industry if they bet with other agencies . Surely it wouldn't be that hard, even if they only get a small percentage to switch it will improve our return.

[Messenger]

For those who are interested in POCTax

[Dot]

https://harnessracingupdate.com/2019/01/03/how-to-get-people-to-the-track/

"If you’re in it for fun and not for profit, you only need a small percentage.

The entertainment attributed to horse ownership is unmatched by any mainstream sports exposure. Simply put, that’s why and how thestable.ca works.

By changing the way we approach the general public and the message we attract them with, you will see an influx of interest and ownership requests never seen before.

Again, this isn’t hypothetical jargon, this is reality. Thestable.ca just surpassed 600 active clients before Christmas and now sits at 604. Our average client owns no more that four per cent of any horse.

We don’t sell investment, we sell entertainment. And we make good on our promise."

a very interesting piece from Anthony MacDonald again

[KTQ]

934


How do we get harness in the number 2 position?

[Messenger]

A mention would be a good start. Darts are there (10th in line) and we are nowhere to be seen

[Dot]

https://harnessracingupdate.com/2019/01/03/how-to-get-people-to-the-track/

"If you’re in it for fun and not for profit, you only need a small percentage.

The entertainment attributed to horse ownership is unmatched by any mainstream sports exposure. Simply put, that’s why and how thestable.ca works.

By changing the way we approach the general public and the message we attract them with, you will see an influx of interest and ownership requests never seen before.

Again, this isn’t hypothetical jargon, this is reality. Thestable.ca just surpassed 600 active clients before Christmas and now sits at 604. Our average client owns no more that four per cent of any horse.

We don’t sell investment, we sell entertainment. And we make good on our promise."

a very interesting piece from Anthony MacDonald again

Yes, and as discussed before we really do need to get ASIC out of syndicating horses in small affordable shares because it is for entertainment not investment

[Dot]

A mention would be a good start. Darts are there (10th in line) and we are nowhere to be seen


Where in the next to jump que, but given bet 365 bans any successful harness punter being in the top ten might not do much for us

[aussiebreno]

Where in the next to jump que, but given bet 365 bans any successful harness punter being in the top ten might not do much for us

Now now. They dont ban you. You are allowed to have a couple dollars on odds on favourites !

[Messenger]

Where in the next to jump que, but given bet 365 bans any successful harness punter being in the top ten might not do much for us

Of course everything is in the queue but they have 10 sports on their header/toolbar and we don't even get a gig ahead of Darts

[Dot]

Now now. They dont ban you. You are allowed to have a couple dollars on odds on favourites !

Oh of course, we all know how many of those we have, think Kev knows how many of those win too!

[Dot]

Of course everything is in the queue but they have 10 sports on their header/toolbar and we don't even get a gig ahead of Darts

Think the issue is bigger then their tool bar Kev, we don’t need to get in their toolbar, we need to get them out of our marketplace.

[Messenger]

You would have about the same chance of having Melbourne Cup day being changed to Hunter Cup day

[Dot]

You might be surprised Kev, the Australian market has not been as lucrative for them as they thought, and they have gone through a good deal of the available punting population already. Hence why so many of the corporates have merged to keep their operations profitable. Point of consumption tax plus making them except minimum bet limits from all punters and having to close the accounts of losing problem gamblers could see their presence significantly reduced and possibly a withdrawal from the marketplace if their operations become increasingly unprofitable.

[Dot]

HRNSW has just announced a brand new carnival for Wagga starting in 2020 which will see 4 new Gr 1 races run in NSW. 2 for 4yos and 2 for 5yos. Heats and Finals. 30 runners in each series.

http://www.harnesslink.com/International/HRNSW-Media-Release---Group-1-racing-set-for-the-Riverina

[thepacingman]

Re: Cranbourne Thursday night. Another black eye.

7 races with fields of 9, 8, 6, 7, 6, 6, 6.

From the stewards report.

Race one, no reason given why the horse did not arrive.

RACE 1 – DECRON PACE (2080 MS)

Modern Chic was a late scratching at 5.29 pm due to the mare failing to arrive on-course by the prescribed time.

RACE 2 – SBG ACCOUNTANTS & BUSINESS ADVISORS PACE (2080 MS)

As Zac Phillips was held up in traffic enroute to the track stewards permitted Monique Burnett to be substituted as the driver for Midnight Rattler.

[Messenger]

Most dress casually for the trots and I may be accused of being a snob here but if you were in the ownership of the short favourite in the Gp2 Cochran Cup - would you consider wearing something other than a Chicago Bulls singlet for your winning pic with legend Graeme Lang?

[KTQ]

Most dress casually for the trots and I may be accused of being a snob here but if you were in the ownership of the short favourite in the Gp2 Cochran Cup - would you consider wearing something other than a Chicago Bulls singlet for your winning pic with legend Graeme Lang?


Yup!

[Messenger]

We are going bad when there is no semaphore display on track.
You don't realize how much you refer to it until it goes missing

Apparently the 2 HRV have are out of action.
It would want to be phenomenal circumstances otherwise I am thinking that whoever has the maintenance contract gets a FAIL

[Bonnie]

Most dress casually for the trots and I may be accused of being a snob here but if you were in the ownership of the short favourite in the Gp2 Cochran Cup - would you consider wearing something other than a Chicago Bulls singlet for your winning pic with legend Graeme Lang?
I fully agree with these comments. The dress code for on track presentations is listed in the Tabcorp Park Racebook, yet is NOT enforced. It is our ‘ metro’ track and standards should be set and maintained. HRV are not helping our image publicity wise either: they published the same photo in the lift out in the Herald Sun promoting our big night of Group 1 racing !

[Dot]

Surely you two can not be serious. All that ails the industry and you want to complain about a guy who was obviously wrapped to win a big race for wearing a Chicago Bulls singlet over an adidas t shirt and the dress code! Sure he’s not likely to win fashion on the field but he’s not there for that, he’s there to support his horse, having invested his hard earned in our industry. We need to be encouraging more like him to be part of an inclusive not exclusive trots family. You want more young people to attend then do away with the dress code, and maybe they will become members as well.

Certainly Gloucester Park could do with some young members, but perhaps you’d be more comfortable there Ann, they do enforce the dress code, and you’ll be lucky if you see anyone in the members there under 60, likely considerably more, as GP heads for the same fate as HP.

What is our image Ann? Just an industry for the toffs who like to dress up? ( Nothing wrong with that if it’s how you feel comfortable dressing) How about working blokes or gals and families aren’t they welcome too? Shouldn’t we be trying to get more people to all our races not just those who like to dress up. I think it was a great photo to show that we are a place for all. (Ok if we’re being picky there wasn’t a women in it but we all know just how inclusive of women the trots are)

But yes Ann/Kev, GA is from an era where people dressed up to go to the trots, but he was smart enough to know 20years ago it wasnt like that anymore and is certainly as welcoming of a bloke in a Chicago Bulls singlet in the ownership of his horses as anyone else.

[arlington]

We are going bad when there is no semaphore display on track.
You don't realize how much you refer to it until it goes missing

Apparently the 2 HRV have are out of action.
It would want to be phenomenal circumstances otherwise I am thinking that whoever has the maintenance contract gets a FAIL


As an aside, have you noticed any variation in the way races have been run Kev? Sectional times don't have to be adhered to.
As a further aside, I'm not sure if there are actually more $4500 races being run but with the first prize money of $2250 there seems to be a higher quality of horse racing in them. And considering a lot of non penalty are/have been run at Melton, does anyone, punters, care there is no sectional time requirement in these?

[Messenger]

Sent from Dot
The Weaver/Bruscemi ownership group, one of the most successful in the US industry for many many years at the presentation for Warrawee Ubeaut fastest 2yo mile in history.

[Messenger]

Dot, Ann and myself may be out of touch (and my dislike of basketball showing through LOL)
Maybe that is one of our 'points of difference' with the gallops for it sure would not happen there (for a Gp1)
Although they have a cross-section of dressers at their big meets it seems that plenty like to dress up and the owners are always
Is it a coincidence that they are the code that is attracting the big money
I know nothing about US gallops but US harness is apparently going backwards like us

Overall, you're right that dress code is not a serious problem, just a personal irk of mine when I saw that pic being taken - maybe even snobbish :eek:

A good crowd at Stawell's Australia Day meet yesterday but my wife and I both laughed that by far the predominant hair colour in the lounge/bistro was grey and I don't think the scant dress code had anything to do with that. The club had tried to attract the families and younger crowd (band, laser tag etc) and had some success but overall I think the average age of the crowd would still have been pushing 60

I am reminded of a time 25yrs ago when at a quiet Yarra Valley meet I took my son (< 10yo) into the members with me. The President at the time (I would be guessing his name now but the one who looked like a bulldog) told me he had to leave even though he was just sitting quietly and there were very few in there (but included a couple of babies). No surprise my son was not a convert to the trots

[Messenger]

As an aside, have you noticed any variation in the way races have been run Kev? Sectional times don't have to be adhered to.
As a further aside, I'm not sure if there are actually more $4500 races being run but with the first prize money of $2250 there seems to be a higher quality of horse racing in them. And considering a lot of non penalty are/have been run at Melton, does anyone, punters, care there is no sectional time requirement in these?

Until yesterday I did not know about the semaphore problem (I am pretty sure there was one at Ballarat, as I would be surprised if I did not notice the absence of one). I wondered why I was seeing no 'Driver Fined' when I saw the slow first half sectionals in some race results. I think you are right that nobody cares but I would think that it has to be advantageous to the leader in what is already a leader dominated code

[Dot]

Kev the gallops industry is a code in two half’s even more so then we are. Whilst the big end of town continues to get bigger many of the smaller and country trainers on every continent are struggling to remain viable

[Dot]

Only 6races/38 runners at the Cranbourne meeting tomorrow night. Why do I get the feeling we are doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

[Dot]

It appears that the loss of revenue from the French PMUs decision to stop wagering on our product is in the order of $16m ouch

[Messenger]

Yikes that would be massive. I wonder how the continuing trot orientated Monday meets are going locally turnover wise and indeed how much of the trots revival was aimed at having an international audience?

[Dot]

Wish our governments ( and NZs) understood supporting the racing industry, particularly the breeding sector, is not subsidising a failing industry but investing in sustaining agribusiness, rural communities and ensuring open space for generations to come as they do in the US. Nothing against the revenues from wagering taxes going to the hospitals and charities fund but don’t they realise that directing more of the wagering taxes in a manner that supports our agribusiness, ie predominantly the breeding sector, may result in more people employed and less in need of charitable organisations or government provided hospital care and a flow on effect of greater revenue from wagering and other taxes. Might have a full Hunter Cup and more horses left in NZ if they did.

http://www.harnesslink.com/USA/LAWMAKERS-SUPPORT-ESSENTIAL-HISTORIC-NJ-INDUSTRY

[Dot]

It appears that the loss of revenue from the French PMUs decision to stop wagering on our product is in the order of $16m ouch

Just rereading my source for this that amount could be the total amount wagered over the past 4/5 years. It has been growing since inception so the loss going forward is still in the millions annually.

[Messenger]

I assumed that Dot. Ray Chaplin showed me that HRA had international revenue around $6m the last couple of seasons and we are assuming this would mostly be Vic's french venture

[Messenger]

A big crowd in attendance for the Hunter
A good mix of ages is promising too
I am thinking a huge percentage of them are Melton locals
I reckon there were as many if not more food choices at Ballarat on Cup Night but there was enough and a few family friendly attractions
$69 for the buffet might have been a bit rich (it may have been great food ) as I saw a couple of large empty tables

[Dot]

16% increase in sale average at APG. Two $100k plus lots but appeared to be better demand and prices for middle tier lots which is good for everyone. Would have been disappointment for some as the sale tailed off noticibly towards the end.

[Messenger]

The stakes difference between Melton and Menangle is becoming huge if you look at their secondary meet for the week

Melton seems locked into Monday nights
Last night we had 9 races with the mix producing the average prizemoney of <$6k per race

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX110219

Menangle's usual Tuesday meet today
has 8 races with the average prizemoney per race of >$9k

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC120219

So at the premier track of each state we are seeing the NSW folk racing for 55% more

[Messenger]

We are going bad when there is no semaphore display on track.
You don't realize how much you refer to it until it goes missing

Apparently the 2 HRV have are out of action.
It would want to be phenomenal circumstances otherwise I am thinking that whoever has the maintenance contract gets a FAIL

Looking at the first half times being recorded, I am thinking that we still do not have any semaphore boards on track
What could be taking so long?
Any chance the Media and Communications Department might let the public know?

[Messenger]

7 of 11 races at Melton tonight only $10k - I guess this is how we pay for a $60k Terang Cup tomorrow night

[Yabbie]

I think you will find the Terang Club found the extra funds, not HRV :)

[Dot]

7 of 11 races at Melton tonight only $10k - I guess this is how we pay for a $60k Terang Cup tomorrow night

Wasn’t there an announcement last year from David Martin that Melton was going back to Saturday night meetings in the new year instead of the mix between Saturday and Friday nights? It is Friday night tonight isn’t it?

[Messenger]

I had not been to Terang harness before last night.
It was good to meet poster Carol/Yabbie who told me that the new committee have done amazing work in the last 12mths.
The Cup purse doubled this year to $60k
I wondered whether the field and crowd would have been much different if it had stayed at $30k
The reason I ask is I wondered whether some of this money could have been put towards facilities
The track is excellent and the facilities pretty good but I have no doubt if the club were offered $30k for improvements they would find numerous ways to spend it
Possibly the money was only obtained for Cup sponsorship

The crowd was good and the racing excellent so hopefully turnover was good (although they needed a couple more tote windows open)

ps The same crowd next year could attract a few more mobile food vendors eg a real coffee van, pizza truck, maybe even ice cream ....

[Dot]

That would be akin to putting the cart before the horse Kev.

[Messenger]

In the Herald Sun today
On the Ando's Shout page (Jon Anderson)

Rein In Cheating
The greyhound and horse racing industries have had the blowtorch applied in recent years, whereas harness racing has largely been left alone.
Don't expect that to be the case for long. Anyone cheating in that industry should think long and hard about it given their time is coming.

WTF heaven help us if he couldn't manage to write about Poster Boy or anything other than having a shot at us for NOT being in the news for the wrong reason lately
His paper will be quick to crucify us when next we do BUT at least wait until we do

Many would agree with the warning but it is not something to be reported.
Maybe Jon wants to exchange his keypad for a pulpit?

[arlington]

He might have backed the favourite in the Chariots?

[Yabbie]

Hi Kevin - nice to meet you in person Saturday night.
I understand there are plans for improvements for facilities at Terang but waiting on funding.
The committee will be holding a debrief very shortly and I know that the food situation is definitely on the agenda.
I'll pass on the comment regarding more tote windows being available.
Cheers

[Messenger]

One other thing I think they could consider cashing in on would be making a big deal of the special Menangle races they share the night with (it could boost turnover)

I don’t think it would be a no-no to intermingle the Menangle fields with Terang's in the race book (even if only the big races)

Ps It was good to see race books being sold at the entrance turnstile (although I wonder whether making them free would be balanced out by the likely increase in turnover )

[Messenger]

Looking at the first half times being recorded, I am thinking that we still do not have any semaphore boards on track
What could be taking so long?
Any chance the Media and Communications Department might let the public know?

Bendigo had a semaphore board last night. One of the timing trucks has returned so some but not all meets will have them (until April)

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/timing-truck-back-on-track-at-bendigo/

[arlington]

In the Herald Sun today
On the Ando's Shout page (Jon Anderson)

Rein In Cheating
The greyhound and horse racing industries have had the blowtorch applied in recent years, whereas harness racing has largely been left alone.
Don't expect that to be the case for long. Anyone cheating in that industry should think long and hard about it given their time is coming.

WTF heaven help us if he couldn't manage to write about Poster Boy or anything other than having a shot at us for NOT being in the news for the wrong reason lately
His paper will be quick to crucify us when next we do BUT at least wait until we do

Many would agree with the warning but it is not something to be reported.
Maybe Jon wants to exchange his keypad for a pulpit?



He might have backed the favourite in the Chariots?

I don't think Jon Anderson wrote this.

https://nationaltrotguide.com.au/suspension-brings-rasmussen-sense-of-deja-vu/

[Messenger]

I have never been convinced that Labour Day Monday is a great choice for Horsham to host a special meet
You are not going to attract many long weekenders as they are on their way home - you might get a dozen (I saw 3 caravans parked today and of course there will be some cars)
There will also be locals that have gone away

I dropped in for races 2-4 before the 40min spacing kicked in (and I have been on this day before)
The weather was good
The club heavily promotes their Drivers Championship and had a special womens luncheon on
There was a pony trot and a MC doing plenty of interviews (he should have been in front of the grandstand instead of the parade ring)
We still need more to do between races. The club does not do dining and the ladies had the lounge with the track view this year.

I am NOT complaining about the clubs efforts
My concern is the opposite - the effort they put in for so little return

I did a couple of counts and although there was well over 100 in attendance, it was not close to 200 (even with the 30? ladies)

I know people say crowds are not important but I am not one of them

ps Entry is free

[Messenger]

Dot has always said we need something like this

at Woodbine Mohawk Park.

The Jackpot Hi-5 had a carryover of $525,140 entering the mandatory payout and horseplayers came out in full force to take their shot.

A total of $2,818,293 of new money was wagered on the Hi-5.


http://www.harnesslink.com/Canada/-2.8-million-wagered-on-Jackpot-Hi-5

No wonder!

[gutwagon]

Todays meeting at Cranbourne- 48 starters in 7 races (after scratchings). Field sizes 5,6,5,6,8,8,10.



Personally I think it's time to take some meeting away from them and run them where there are more horses. The small horse population in the east and traffic congestion stopping others going there just seems a wasted chance of getting any decent turnover. Yet HRV continue to persist pouring $ into them just because of a large human population in the area.
They seem to get more $7k races than most other clubs, and still can't get runners. it just doesn't make sense to me.


Why is it that they don't have Monday night meetings ? 4 day meetings on today and no night meeting. Night meetings usually bring higher turnover . Why leave the dogs to get the good turnover ?

[Messenger]

I don't know whether we can use the traffic congestion as a reason
Melton folk can go the long way around and still get there a lot quicker than the 6hr each way trips that some are making to Mildura!

ps 6 scratching did not help those numbers

[Yabbie]

Todays meeting at Cranbourne- 48 starters in 7 races (after scratchings). Field sizes 5,6,5,6,8,8,10.



Personally I think it's time to take some meeting away from them and run them where there are more horses. The small horse population in the east and traffic congestion stopping others going there just seems a wasted chance of getting any decent turnover. Yet HRV continue to persist pouring $ into them just because of a large human population in the area.
They seem to get more $7k races than most other clubs, and still can't get runners. it just doesn't make sense to me.


Why is it that they don't have Monday night meetings ? 4 day meetings on today and no night meeting. Night meetings usually bring higher turnover . Why leave the dogs to get the good turnover ?





Most of Cranbourne's meetings are Sunday afternoons next season to alleviate the traffic issues

[arlington]

A lot of horses play up in traffic snarls Kev.

Have done this long way around from the north. Slow enough quite late on a Saturday afternoon
https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-37.5693058,144.941033/Cranbourne,+Victoria+3977/@-37.6837889,144.9861413,12.82z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x6ad60d8d2eb71c37:0 x5045675218ce150!2m2!1d145.279!2d-38.105!2m3!6e0!7e2!8j1557844800!3e0

North East link 2027? Will be good for western/Melton trainers if they haven't sold out to developers by then.

Warragul got pretty good fields for the Sunday arvo Cup meet. Quite a few from Melton/the west and, of course, San Carlo from the north.
Surprised a couple more from the north didn't head down. We thought it wouldn't be too bad a trip but the field/noms were a bit too good for us. Promoted too well by Kyle :phttp://www.harnessracingforum.com/images/icons/icon14.png

[gutwagon]

Most of Cranbourne's meetings are Sunday afternoons next season to alleviate the traffic issues
If they still fail to get decent numbers something has to be done. They are currently dragging the industry down. I still get the feeling that they are only being propped up because the racing ministers electorate is on that side of town. Or the committee has some influence over HRV.

[Messenger]

Or maybe we don't want to write off one of the most populated areas of Australia?
It is our Sydney Swans experiment

[Dot]

If your going to use the Swans as your anology Kev then the formerly very successful Cranbourne harness racing region of Ted Demmler and Noel Alexander/Jayne Davies and a young puppet is the original South Melbourne that couldn’t remain viable in the AFL and moved to Sydney to become the very successful Sydney Swans.

Which equates to the Cranbourne club “moving” to a region in which it could grow and thrive rather then remaining where it is with, as the Swans found in South Melbourne, a paucity of local talent as the demographic changed that could no longer keep the club competitive with other clubs.

Not meaning to offend anyone but that is the history of the very successful Swans in a nutshell.......

[Showgrounds]

Get a grip people! Cranbourne sure has boomed since I first caught a rail-motor with a mate there in 1972 then walked a mile and a half through paddocks to the track. Then, had to kill in an hour and a half before the returning train arrived!

Today, Cranbourne trots boasts excellent facilities and ease of access via freeway all the way from Melton (just pay the toll, stop complaining!). It has a top-notch harness training complex while our industry "showpiece" (Melton) has nothing - despite what was hinted / promised in the conceptual stages.

Get a good run and it takes no time to get to Cranny. Just try driving to Melton from the east of the state on a Friday night and you will see what traffic and gridlock is like.

In the early part of this century I made a comment to a couple of committee members from the Warragul club that the biggest threat facing that club's future was the perception it was still was more than a two hours drive from the city. The fact that it was freeway all the way from the city - at minimum 6 lanes to Pakenham seems to have been lost in the mist of time. Small fields will always result while people cling to false perceptions. Owners and trainers need to support Cranbourne and Warragul and they will return that support.