Mr. X

[JCT2011]

Trots driver free to race despite fraud admission
Tom Reilly, Chris Roots
September 2, 2011

A LEADING harness racing driver has been allowed to continue competing despite admitting his involvement in a corruption scandal that threatens to destroy the sport.

The driver, who cannot be named for legal reasons, met the head of harness racing in NSW and confirmed his involvement in the fraud, in which it is alleged crooked stewards allowed horses to be doped as part of an elaborate betting sting.

Since that meeting, the driver, who is in his 20s, has won several races on tracks in the state.

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The revelation comes as trotting - on which more than $2.2 billion a year is wagered - battles to restore its reputation amid fears that hundreds of races could have been fixed.

Parallel investigations are being conducted by police detectives and the head of integrity at Harness Racing NSW.

The Herald can also reveal that more than 40 trainers, drivers and owners have been asked to provide documents, including phone records, to the sport's authorities as they try to establish links among corrupt participants.

A source familiar with the investigation said some trainers and drivers had submitted incomplete phone records, and others had claimed not to own mobile phones despite having regularly been seen talking on handsets. No one under suspicion has yet lost their licence.

A racecourse insider said of the driver's meeting with the chief executive of Harness Racing NSW, Sam Nati: "Driver X [name withheld by the Herald] met with Sam and took along his parents. He put his hands up to being involved in two races that were hot, but it became clear that Sam knew of more involvement and that this wasn't going to be something that could be hushed up."

The driver has confirmed the meeting but denied making any admission of illegal activity. His father told the Herald: ''Yeah, I met Sam for a beer and my son came along. There's nothing unusual or illegal in that.''

Asked if they had discussed corruption, he replied: ''We didn't talk about nothing.''

Last night, Mr Nati said: "We have had a number of informal discussions with various participants. But who those people are and what was discussed is confidential until such time as they are formally interviewed as part of the investigation.

"Some people have suggested that those suspected of being involved should have been stood down pending the outcome of the inquiry … but this inquiry is far-reaching and all-encompassing so we believe [it's right] to adopt the innocent until proven guilty edict."

The Herald understands that harness racing officials have told participants that involvement in the scam cannot go unpunished but "penalties will be mitigated" if those involved provide information that assists investigations.

The scandal erupted when the car belonging to the chief steward, Bill Cable, was firebombed on August 5. The next Monday, two stewards - Matthew Bentley, 24, and Paul O'Toole, 47 - resigned after being confronted with evidence of alleged wrongdoing.

Authorities will allege both men were receiving payments - perhaps as much as $1000 a horse - not to test certain runners for drugs, thereby giving corrupt trainers, punters and drivers a huge advantage in orchestrating betting plunges. It is believed as many as 80 per cent of the doped horses won their races.

On Wednesday, Harness Racing NSW announced it would allocate up to $1 million for an integrity fund to cover costs from the scandal. The money will also be used to increase race day drug testing and provide greater security on the track.

''There's no doubt that, in terms of perception and ill feeling, we've hit rock bottom, but I believe we can bounce back,'' Mr Nati said.

''I'm pleased the police have announced a task force so that people can have the confidence that it [the scandal] is being investigated properly.''

[JCT2011]

Watch them all drop now! Especially with 'Mr. X' possibly assisting...

[triplev123]

Go get 'em Sam. Nail the bastards to the wall.

[Gtrain]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKPBz2MQAiAesjDKkWhTtMI0XfBfo8K VAm1c1VsnI1N6wdg6IYMA
Bloody Homer!

[thesushitrain]

when i read this article a classifieds add on the left 'senior fraud analyst...location - western sydney'

[tyson]

So now someone has owned up to a so called 2 races that were fixed. Do they treat those races as the same as a positive swab and allocate the 2nd place horse to 1st. It would be fair but geez it would nearly be impossible.

Thesushitrain - Whats your problem with western sydney ?

[thesushitrain]

western sydney.... where hrnsw is based...hence the joke that the ad was for a fraud analyst with hrnsw...


i'd be thinking mr x would be a low key member in this, anyone high up has nothing to gain by cooperating whereas a person with less involvement could realistically have a reduced penalty for assisting

[triplev123]

Gday TST,
Since around 10am or so this morning when I first read that piece things are just a little less disturbed here. You hear the rumours of course but to see things in all but black and white in the paper is something else again.
Sadly, for many including myself it didn't take Sherlock Holmes to read between the lines. On a personal note I am all but lost for the words to express just how bitterly disappointed I am in the fella whom I think is in all probability Mr. X.
I'd like it on record that I've long admired his ability in the bike and he's always been at the top of my list of go to guys if we needed or if anyone else I knew ever needed/asked me for suggestions about a driver here in Sydney or anywhere else for that matter. Not only has he let himself down but he has let his family, his mates, his supporters and the Industry down. I'm gutted, I really am and I know for sure that in this instance I am not the only one. There's always a chance for redemption I guess, some are a chance, some are beyond it...but it will be a bloody long road.

[JCT2011]

VVV,

He has had immense talent in the bike, but unfortunately 'Mr. X''s reputation certainly has dipped over the past 18 months or so. Its a crying shame as he certainly can drive!

[David Summers]

Nothing really to add , you guys have said it all. A tragedy on every level , indeed.

[triplev123]

Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.

[Termite]

I wouldn't question for a minute the vigilance nsw authorities are applying to this debacle, however, if this report accurately describes the way information was obtained I would seriousy question the wisdom of a CEO of a business meeting a scoundrel within its ranks and his dad in a pub. This has me gobsmacked. If a photo of this scene landed in the press before comment from hrnsw it would be a catastrophe and very hard for Sam nati to defend. Headline reads "CEO on the piss with corrupt driver and his dad!" in the current climate I believe there is no place for "informal" information gathering- no matter how valuable such information may be.

[Diesel]

Hey Guys, Are these blokes for real?? I have been following this debacle and note the amount of people involved.
I have recently purchased a share in a horse with a trainer who has a relatively small team for a bit of fun.
Reading the comments here it appears you may have some idea of who Mr X is.......
Im concerned this has a great effect on most others outside of the (bad circle) not involved.
Im absolutely disgusted these people are still allowed to participate..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JCT2011]

Gday Diesel,

As religious followers of this great sport, we (as longtime supporters) are utterly disgraced with these actions.. Majority of the industry have known from day 1 who the majority are. But obviously due to this inquiry continuing we would be very silly to mention names.

Unfortunately in the past in this sport, you hear rumour after rumour and also evidence supporting the rumours. But in the past no one has stuck their neck out for the sake of the industry and got to the bottom of it.

One thing is for sure, that despite this being a blite on the sports name, it is a huge PLUS for the future of the game. Obviously where money and gambling is involved there will always be corruption. BUT with Sam on the job and this situation continuing the 'GRUBS' of this sport will be gone for a long long time.

[Diesel]

JCT....
I have heard this has been happening for a long period of time with quite a number people involved. Its obvious within the Industry these are well known. So my first question is....Why has it taken so long for those to be weeded out??
So many people have been affected and ripped off......I for one think these people should be stood down until all clear is given.

[Mark Croatto]

JCT....
So many people have been affected and ripped off......I for one think these people should be stood down until all clear is given.

G'day Diesel

It still comes down to having the evidence. Today, moreso than ever before, people in all walks of life challenge authority and the decisions/actions that are taken. One only needs to look at the overwhelming number of appeals by industry participants that have been upheld at the Racing Appeals Tribunal to see how inadequate the evidence and procedures actually were. Given the revelations of stewards' inpropriety it at least goes towards explaining why so many of these matters were being overturned.

In my opinion we have a very passionate man driving the resolve of HRNSW to clean the sport up. I think many are loosing sight of what needs to be done. The Police, Sam and the rest of HRNSW need to be left alone to finish the work they have started, impatience on the part of the industry is not of benefit to anyone

Regards

Mark

[JCT2011]

I wish it could be so easy Diesel, but unfortunately its not...

As I keep saying about this whole situation, It really is a web of corruption, Each day new leads are leading into new evidence and more names are becoming involved. Until it comes to the end of the investigation and all the Evidence has been collected, it is impossible for anyone to be stood down.

Obviously nobody is silly enough to mention names, but in all honesty, if you have been around the races enough as the most of us have, you know who the majority are, and by golly Sh*t is going to hit the fan.

[justdoit]

The people involved in such actions will forever be known as cheats and the arseholes of the industry, when I think of this it makes me very happy and as for the little _ _ _ _ that took and or was taken by his Dad to make a confession, you are a cat, and very much looking forward to getting your name.
The type of person that decides to become a part of such things, in my opinion has to stand directly in front of the firing squad and not beg for forgiveness/leniency.
They made the choice, we have daily these choices as to what path to take in life, the people that choose that direction can go and..


My post above is due to lack of sleep and as you might guess my normal level of tolerance has vanished.

[Diesel]

Yes "CAT" is the word.......best to describe him. I believe this cat and his family have done similar on a previous occasion.
From what Im hearing he is in his 20s and should know better. The family has been in the Industry for years and are well known for "Getting off" on several occasions. Suppose the son is hoping he has the same amount of luck his father has had over the last few years.......
I am filthy....

[David Summers]

Just for you , justdoit , to lift your spirits. Go the Wallabies!!


48

[justdoit]

Thanks Ozninja

[Diesel]

The family of this cat would have been aware of what was going on.....Now Daddy is trying to influence the Authority.
I hope his cheatin thievin mates that he enjoyed such success with are aware of all of this.....
All of these ars#holes should be stood down immediately.
The longer this takes the quieter things will get and these scumbags will get off lightly..........

[David Summers]

ROL, I believe from reliable sources, that he is the highest profile and most well know person under investigation in this scandal , a household name in the harness industry.

When this is all over there there will be so many well known top quality horses on the market. Watching Menangle on Sky tonight makes me very despondent , thinking of how many races I have watched on NSW tracks over the last couple of years are now in serious dispute.

[ringman]

These grubs have been at it a longtime so lets hope they get a long time in he nick and not be allowed back into the game.i have not invested one cent on the trots since i became suspicious that some races were not above board and i doubt i will invest another dollar if the investigation dosnt out the culprits for years if not life.

I think they should take any investigating away from Sam nati he was too close to some stables when he punted

[montana]

I think they should take any investigating away from Sam nati he was too close to some stables when he punted

Sam is a very honest man , and has integrity that is second to none, he has stepped up and confronted this difficult issue i would presume at a great personal cost and the professional that he is will put the integrity of the sport above past associations. these developments are very exciting for the industry and as an owner it has given me more heart to continue my involvement.

Someone in another thread asked about what people thought about having guards on horses prior to races , my horses competed in 2 group 1 races at menangle during the last season and we were elated that guards were placed on the horses in those races , ( in our case they were stewards not guards ) and our horses performed well and at least we felt we had a fair chance in the race once the guards/stewards arrived.

[Flashing Red]

Sam is a very honest man , and has integrity that is second to none, he has stepped up and confronted this difficult issue i would presume at a great personal cost and the professional that he is will put the integrity of the sport above past associations. these developments are very exciting for the industry and as an owner it has given me more heart to continue my involvement.

Someone in another thread asked about what people thought about having guards on horses prior to races , my horses competed in 2 group 1 races at menangle during the last season and we were elated that guards were placed on the horses in those races , ( in our case they were stewards not guards ) and our horses performed well and at least we felt we had a fair chance in the race once the guards/stewards arrived.

I 100% agree about your sentiments of Sam Nati and also about horses being under guard for big races. Here here. :)

[Thevoiceofreason]

These grubs have been at it a longtime so lets hope they get a long time in he nick and not be allowed back into the game.i have not invested one cent on the trots since i became suspicious that some races were not above board and i doubt i will invest another dollar if the investigation dosnt out the culprits for years if not life.

I think they should take any investigating away from Sam nati he was too close to some stables when he punted

Ringman you are kidding Sam Nati is the right bloke to drive this investigation no one and I mean no one is more filthy than him.

[ringman]

TVF my reason is .... do you think for one minute that Sam never had a start when he was punting ?
if you do then dont forget to leave your teeth out for the tooth fairy

[ringman]

Sam is a very honest man , and the professional that he is will put the integrity of the sport above past associations. these developments are very exciting for the industry and as an owner it has given me more heart to continue my involvement.


So lets forget the past with Sam but not with any hot workers hmmmmmmmmmmm looks like thats how it will remain

[Thevoiceofreason]

I am not sure what you mean by your question but if you mean did stables provide him with information, tips, opinions, yes I have no doubt you are right.

But if your question is do I think think stables said bet up because we have filled this up with such such yes I very much doubt it.

I do not know if you know Sam Nati personally but one thing I know about him is he has an opinion, he also had one when he was punting, tip him one that he thought had zero and I can assure you he would not have had a $ on it even if you said it had a V8 added.

[Thevoiceofreason]

TVF my reason is .... do you think for one minute that Sam never had a start when he was punting ?
if you do then dont forget to leave your teeth out for the tooth fairy

By the way I am going ordinary can you get some cash from the fairy for me mine are all falling out some cash will help.

[David Summers]

Ringman , you seem to be making some rather , shall we say , not too wise words, and I suggest politely that you keep your big mouth shut. Most of us on here know and can readily name those that are under investigation but we are being diplomatic and letting justice take it's course.

How about you doing that too , and not try to slander and bad-mouth those that are spending every minute of their working day , in an effort to bring these scumbags to justice and get our industry back on course. Your comments regarding Sam Nati are complete unnecessary. I have been watching the races on Sky tonight with several buddies while reading these harness comments and we all have the same comment - It makes us wonder why you are even bothering to make these stupid comments.

[ringman]

Ozninja very aggressive keyboard gangster you are, my motives are to clean the game up and not to have a person doing the investigating that has had inside information in the past running it.

if you have a problem with that then dont reply just shut your big mouth as im sure Sam will sue me if i say anything slanderous

but he wont 100%

[Thevoiceofreason]

ringman , you seem to be making some rather , shall we say , not to wise words, and i suggest politely that you keep your big mouth shut. Most of us on here know and can readily name those that are under investigation but we are being diplomatic and letting justice take it's course.

How about you doing that too , and not try to slander and bad-mouth those that are spending every minute of their working day , in an effort to bring these scumbags to justice and get our industry back on course. Your comments regarding sam nati are complete unnecessary. I have been watching the races on sky tonight with several buddies while reading these harness comments and we all have the same comment - it makes us wonder your are even bothering to make these stupid comments.

well said

[JCT2011]

Ringman , you seem to be making some rather , shall we say , not to wise words, and I suggest politely that you keep your big mouth shut. Most of us on here know and can readily name those that are under investigation but we are being diplomatic and letting justice take it's course.

How about you doing that too , and not try to slander and bad-mouth those that are spending every minute of their working day , in an effort to bring these scumbags to justice and get our industry back on course. Your comments regarding Sam Nati are complete unnecessary. I have been watching the races on Sky tonight with several buddies while reading these harness comments and we all have the same comment - It makes us wonder your are even bothering to make these stupid comments.

Amen

[David Summers]

I see , ringman. So it's let's bad-mouth the investigators and try to seemingly side track the topic away from the real scumbags. There are already a couple of stooges on other threads trying to do that , very unsuccessfully. I trust that you are not attempting to do that , so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

[ringman]

ozninja i am not bad mouthing Sam just stating the facts. he didnt do anything illegal in the past and im a great believer in giving any person life from harness racing if they are involved in any scam. as for drivers involved in this matter it should be handled in a court of law because they have defrauded the public and be given time in nick if found guilty.

I can see where you blokes are coming from but im not saying Sam would do anything untoward in the investigation.but if he outs someone for punting on these races because they got a tip from a certain stable that gave them a edge its just not right for Sam to handle it.

[triplev123]

Is that seriously the best you can do ringman? 40 odd shit bags to aim up on and instead you aim up on the bloke wearing the white hat? You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Diesel]

The Police are handling the investigation and Sam Nati seems to be the middle man. Firstly the Cat and his Daddy approach Sam as they would hope for leniency. This is not for Sam to negotiate leniency or deals for this grub and his father. His father should also be under investigaton for trying to obstruct justice.
The Leading Driver who has rolled over has only done this cos he has been caught and named in the bunch. I bet he and the Cat would still be doing it if not caught........
No matter what assistance they give to the investigation should not alter the punishment thats coming to them......

[David Summers]

This is an interesting article published yesterday giving more details of how the scam worked http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/trouble-at-the-red-hots/story-fn8u4mgq-1226128409969

Note an interesting statement in the article involving "several high-profile reinsmen understood to be heavily involved in the scandal .To make a good thing an even better good thing, a small group would discuss pre-race tactics".

Ummmm ........... no , I will not comment , except to say , what a load of absolute scumbags. Deserve life bans from the harness industry if found guilty whether they "co-operate" now that they have been exposed or not.

[thesushitrain]

i agree he shouldnt be meeting with these people, sam needs to stay well away from being grouped with them, those 2 people could say sam said anything, if he must meet them he should have a 3rd party there as well to protect himself

[ringman]

Is that seriously the best you can do ringman? 40 odd shit bags to aim up on and instead you aim up on the bloke wearing the white hat? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Triplev123

Lets not forget Sam has not always worn a white hat:confused:

This is why the game is in such a shambles.... people like you sticking their heads in the sand hoping it will all go away when they pop back up.
its like the days of Dougie forbes and J Binskin paying for leads and controlling races when no pressure was applied everyone knew but the kickbacks were too big to complain.
what about the bloke in the 80s who could not sit in but all of a sudden he became friends with "the croc palmer"through playing 2up and his horses would run through brick walls and get help from others in the race while pumped up with gear.all of you on here surely know the lead was up for grabs at the right price for decades.

the game has been rotten for a long long time and you want a bloke who was privy to inside information conducting a enquiry hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Before you say why didnt i complain about the rorts in the 80s.... well i was making a big earn getting the mail about them myself :D and have watched it all over again for years to come.dont blame the punters no rort can take place without a corrupt trainer,driver,or steward.anyone who knows beforehand and dosnt get on the gravy train is a complete mug.

99% of trainers/drivers are hard working people, its the 1% who control these rorts that need to be outed for life.
if they let this father/son team continue in the game then they are supporting rorting themself.

[JCT2011]

Gleeson gets life for the superfecta rort. Surely, life from the industry is the least we can expect for these grubs?

[JCT2011]

Interesting to also read in page 108 of the Daily Telegraph yesterday, that a 'high profile media identity' has also been asked for records. Obviously not indicating of any involvement, but now looking back at a few things over the past 12 months, It makes a fair bit of sense!

[Mark Croatto]

[QUOTE=ringman;10254]Triplev123

Before you say why didnt i complain about the rorts in the 80s.... well i was making a big earn getting the mail about them myself :D and have watched it all over again for years to come.dont blame the punters no rort can take place without a corrupt trainer,driver,or steward.anyone who knows beforehand and dosnt get on the gravy train is a complete mug.

Yeah, the way I see it all it makes you is an accessory after the fact! No better than those who pulled the scam! I suppose using the language found on this forum - SCUM comes to mind!!!!!

Sleep well

[triplev123]

Ringman, it is a nothing short deplorable tactic that you adopt here.
Instead of lining up on the parade of shitbags... who's greed and apparent total lack of empathy for their fellow participants & for those whom they were officially charged with protecting...those that served to create this unholy mess in the first place, you instead question the fella at the centre of trying to clean up?
As I said, you should be ashamed of yourself and I'll now add completely & utterly.

[David Summers]

Ringman, it is a nothing short deplorable tactic that you adopt here.
Instead of lining up on the parade of shitbags... who's greed and apparent total lack of empathy for their fellow participants & for those whom were officially charged with protecting...served to create this unholy mess in the first place, you instead question the fella at the centre of trying to clean up?
As I said, you should be ashamed of yourself and I'll now add completely & utterly.

Amen to that triple , well said. On behalf of all those on these harness forums ( other than the two other stooges in other threads operating to protect the scumbags) , ringman, please go away. Your mobile must be ringing non-stop advising you of your next opportunity to make yet another dishonest buck. You sound like you are very proud of yourself. No you are an absolute d!ckhead aligning yourself with the dishonesty of these scumbags to make another quick buck. It's clear to all what your (obviously paid) agenda is here. Get lost , we don't need any more of your cr@p.

[Diesel]

If the shoe Fitz Ringman...??????????????

[triplev123]

Cheers. Hold the line Ozninja. Keep the faith.

[David Summers]

Cheers. Hold the line Ozninja. Keep the faith.

triple , you can absolutely rely on me doing that. In my life , I have never felt more militant or passionate than I do now about this current scandal and those trying to sidetrack the investigation with their utter BS.

[triplev123]

Millitant and passionate. I'm with you there mate, shoulder to shoulder.

[aussiebreno]

Gleeson gets life for the superfecta rort. Surely, life from the industry is the least we can expect for these grubs?

14 years isnt life!

[ringman]

Amen to that triple , well said. On behalf of all those on these harness forums ( other than the two other stooges in other threads operating to protect the scumbags) , ringman, please go away. Your mobile must be ringing non-stop advising you of your next opportunity to make yet another dishonest buck. You sound like you are very proud of yourself. No you are an absolute d!ckhead aligning yourself with the dishonesty of these scumbags to make another quick buck. It's clear to all what your (obviously paid) agenda is here. Get lost , we don't need any more of your cr@p.

I had no bigger advantage than Sam did when he was punting and got the mail something was on :cool:.are you such a dumb imbicile that you would back the horse in a race thats there to protect the leader walking in front or who wont pull out from the back until the 300 in a slowly run race .ive never been directly involved in pulling a horse up or gearing one up so what have i done wrong? the same families have been rorting for decades and the powers to be in harness racing let them keep rorting, and dont worry this is not confined to NSW only as the future will proove when the stewards in other states do their job correctly vic and sa are working hot also expect more to come.

Like i have said all along any trainer/driver involved should get life because without them organising the rort there is no rort on full stop.

Isnt it lovely to see that all you blokes would alert the stewards if you found out a 8/1 chance was going to lead in a race and the 2/5 fav was going to stay back last and not take off to get the leader home.

yeah of course you would :rolleyes:

[JCT2011]

14 years isnt life!

Sorry Breno, i didnt mean to word it in that way, that came across wrong. What I was meant to say was that this Scandal is the biggest to hit the sport since gleeson, as surely a stronger penalty should be dealt to these latest grubs.

[David Summers]

ringman, if we just ignore your crap will you will just finally just go away, anywhere but here. Still can't figure out why you are pushing the barrow you have been for some time now. Don't bother replying and continue showing us what a total wanker you are. You have already made that VERY obvious.

[aussiebreno]

Sorry Breno, i didnt mean to word it in that way, that came across wrong. What I was meant to say was that this Scandal is the biggest to hit the sport since gleeson, as surely a stronger penalty should be dealt to these latest grubs.
Yeah no worries. Knew what you meant champ. And you are pretty spot on in comparing it in levels of seriousness to Gleeson. Lets just hope the right penalties are given!

[ringman]

ringman, if we just ignore your crap will you will just finally just go away, anywhere but here. Still can't figure out why you are pushing the barrow you have been for some time now. Don't bother replying and continue showing us what a total wanker you are. You have already made that VERY obvious.

funny isnt it you all want to bag me but pat Sam on the back when we did the same thing.
why are you protecting Sam?

I sent a letter to Sam 6 months ago about the way some races were being run or better still rigged and was shrugged off.
hmmmmmm who is looking the goose now its not me thats for sure

[ringman]

But why are you protecting sam ??? surely even for a dope like you its a simple question

[justdoit]

Hi Ringman,
Any information you have that may assist the on going investigation into HRNSW should be passed on to the police, if you fail to do so then?
I do not feel that anyone at HRNSW including S.Nati believe that at this very moment they are not under investigation themselves, he will be
at the end of this mess judged by the whole industry and if he shines then he will get a job in the thoroughbred industry:)


VOTE (1) S.NATI

[JCT2011]

But why are you protecting sam ??? surely even for a dope like you its a simple question

Maybe its because here in NSW we have actually found someone, who cares and loves the sport as we do. Over the years I have been sick and tired of seeing these 'blue collar corporates' come in and try and run the joint.
The biggest joke I have ever seen in NSW was the appointment of Max Pool. That bloke did not know one inch about racing.

Sam has the knowledge and the passion to make this industry thrive. and thats what we want! and this has been clearly demonstrated with the way he has handled this whole scandal.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Ringman

Just in case you have not worked it out yet yourself you are going to need a rort to get your argument home .

Looks to me like you came of the arm running but so far every other runner in the race has had a chop at you, so its been no easy lead for you, however like most leaders who get pressured you will hit the wall.

We all only hope its soon

[triplev123]

maybe its because here in nsw we have actually found someone, who cares and loves the sport as we do.
[vvv] testify jct! Amen.

Over the years i have been sick and tired of seeing these 'blue collar corporates' come in and try and run the joint.
The biggest joke i have ever seen in nsw was the appointment of max pool. That bloke did not know one inch about racing.

[vvv] a bit harsh. Max was ok. Admittedly he didn't understand racing & moreso the people in it in the way someone that had long been close to or that was born into the industry would have...but from what i knew & saw of him he did give of his best and his intentions, at times they were misguided, were always honourable.

the biggest joke of all here in nsw, the single biggest insult of and to the industry was the nsw dept. Of gaming & racing's absurd jobs for the boys creation, the ghrra.
from start to finish that was an absolute & utter debacle.

there was a bit of a shocker after the fact too. Elvis' e-mail address actually remained active for a good many months after he had officially left the building (& this i know to be the case because i used to regularly send him e-mails of the 'don't let the door whack you in the backside as you leave' kind & they never once bounced), as did his remote access remain active afterwards as i understand, this from a former it employee of the ghrra.
i ended up writing to the gaming & racing minsiter at the time, kevin greene, & alerting him to the fact that the e-mail & remote access were apparently still active & very shortly afterwards it was shut down. I have his reply here somewhere. Nice bloke.
clearly, to my mind, somone in there was going all out behind the scenes to 'keep the dream alive' for 'elvis' despite him having left the building. what the hell was going on there one wonders? :confused::confused::confused::confused:
was old mate seeking to somehow rise, phoenix like, from the ashes of that organisation to head up the now hrnsw? Geeze, that doesn't bare thinking about.

added to that, how perriously close did we go to getting yet another department of gaming & racing flunky in the big chair...and i wonder where would we have been right now had that occurred? :(

i know the answer to the first part of that question....we went very, very close, we were within a bee's todger of getting one of their long term flunkies (not elvis) back for a 2nd run at it...but thankfully, at the 11th hour that absolute catastrophe was averted and instead, we got sam.
a lot of industry participants here in nsw were not aware at the time and i'm sure many of them are still not not aware of just how close we came to disaster in that regard.
when i later found out who had thrown their hats into the ring, who was the preferred candidate as far as the nsw gaming & racing dept. Was concerned and so on, i have to say...it was what i expect waking up from a good and restful night's sleep to find that, during the night the earth had narrowly avoided a collision with an asteroid the size of tasmania...would be like. In time, those persons responsible for respectively alerting and diverting the preferred candidate and then looking outside the square should have medals pinned to their chest and their images cast in bronze.


sam has the knowledge and the passion to make this industry thrive. And thats what we want! And this has been clearly demonstrated with the way he has handled this whole scandal.
[vvv] indeed. Those who underestimate him do so at their peril.



vvv

[David Summers]

Thanks triple. Preaching to the converted here. Hey everyone, let's move on from this. We have been completely , and I believe quite deliberately , sidetracked here in this thread by one moron and we do not need whatsoever to have to defend the integrity of Sam or the current investigations. Anyone trying the blacken the name of the investigators or the investigation has their own set agenda.

Let's just turn off ringman's oxygen tank.

[ringman]

Sam has the knowledge and the passion to make this industry thrive. and thats what we want! and this has been clearly demonstrated with the way he has handled this whole scandal.
No doubt he has a passion for the industry im not disputing that:rolleyes: but that dosnt alter the fact of what was going on when he was punting and he took advantage of it.anyone who for one minute thinks Sam will stop the rorting better think again.the only way this game can survive is for the coppers to take control of all investigations.

ozninja

Let's just turn off ringman's oxygen tank
Why Mrs Nati is baby sam gasping for air and he needs a new tank?

[coldshot]

Hubby and I have been long-time viewers of this forum - Triple v's comment inspired me to join and make my first post - hubby would've but he has Errol Flynn fingers as far as keyboards go.

Yes the current scandal is bad and yes we want the perpetrators named, shamed and severely dealt with. There is another danger though that I've noticed starting to creep into some of the SMH and Telegraph articles regarding answers being required as to how this situation was allowed to arise. It's been 2 years since the GHRRA was booted into orbit and I'd wager some of that Board and management would now be telling all and sundry in government and the media that their concerns about the commercial Board with no regulatory experience running the industry are now vindicated.

The worse the scandal gets once the big names are revealed, the worse the current administration is going to look. They will deservedly get points for cleaning things up if they can make any charges stick but they'll also get marked down for not picking up on a situation that had been going on for so long. What scares us the most is that we could see a knee-jerk reaction from the Minister and Dept resulting in a GHRRA Mk2 with some old familiar faces on board. I dearly hope this doesn't occur as the scandal has put us back enough without another administrative/organisational reform.

I hope my post makes sense and contributes to this forum.

And could we leave personalities out of things. We know Mr Nati and Mr Pool well and both are absolute gentlemen who give/gave 110% to the job, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, under different sets of circumstances. We could do and have done much worse in recent history.

[ringman]

The worse the scandal gets once the big names are revealed, the worse the current administration is going to look. They will deservedly get points for cleaning things up if they can make any charges stick but they'll also get marked down for not picking up on a situation that had been going on for so long. .

Nice post and its good to see you are a thinker

[thesushitrain]

what i cant understand, greyhounds victoria had found stewards and a handicapper betting on races at exactly the same time as this, hardly a word about that anywhere

just glad this hasn't gone the way of the hush up

[triplev123]

It's a different Code but the current uproar has many things in common with old mate Rodney Pottter and his dastardly dishlicker deeds back in 1994-2000. http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s127979.htm

[coldshot]

It's a different Code but the current uproar has many things in common with old mate Rodney Pottter and his dastardly dishlicker deeds back in 1994-2000. http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s127979.htm

thanks for that vvv - i think that's my greatest concern - Potter situation went to ICAC which recommended changes which ultimately produced HRNSW, GRNSW and the GHRRA - there's usually some fallout from these things and Ministers and bureaucrats do so love to be seen to 'be doing something'. At least the current situation won't go to ICAC but if the corruption is as widespread as it seems with very prominent people within and outside the sport involved, we might get a public inquiry into the administration.

I'd like to see the grubs and profiteers exposed and rubbed out, and then the focus returned to rebuilding without any more restructuring. IMO we've had enough of that the last 10-11 years.

[Diesel]

The only issue here is are we going to have the big names covered up. This has happened on several occasions over the last few years to keep integrity intact. There have been positive swabs from high profile people in the Industry swept under the rug...
Mr X and his father have no doubt pulled this card.
As has the leading driver with his high profile lawyer...........

Its time these people manned up and identified themselves. Then and only then will there be no rumour and innuendo.

[triplev123]

The only issue here is are we going to have the big names covered up. This has happened on several occasions over the last few years to keep integrity intact. There have been positive swabs from high profile people in the Industry swept under the rug...
Mr X and his father have no doubt pulled this card.
As has the leading driver with his high profile lawyer...........

Its time these people manned up and identified themselves. Then and only then will there be no rumour and innuendo.

[VVV] Hey Diesel, it might come as a bit of a shock to you but with a post like that you're fueling the rumour and innuendo that you claim to be railing against????. If you know any of that for a fact then you should come forward.

[David Summers]

Diesel , to save you having to look up numbers when you are making your call about this scandal , here are the details. Operators are standing by waiting for your call :p

For the internal HRNSW investigation anyone with information can ring the Investigation hotline on 1800 672 751.

If any person has information relating to the NSW Police and Strike Force Tairora they can contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.
All leads can remain anonymous.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Would it be fair to say Sam Nati is a modern day Elliot Ness?

[David Summers]

I think so , I sure hope so http://www.smileycons.com/img/emotions/112.gif (http://smileycons.com/)

[Toohard]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16764

[mightymo]

i stand to be corrected, but if the NSW police go down the criminal path, then they can compel them to hand over the information or face criminal charges.

[David Summers]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/superracing/independent-three-man-panel-for-drugs-betting-scandal/story-fn67r1j3-1226131707419

[Diesel]

Thanks Ozninja.....
Already done......

[Mark Croatto]

i stand to be corrected, but if the NSW police go down the criminal path, then they can compel them to hand over the information or face criminal charges.

G'day Mightymo

Not really, they can certainly apply for search warrants but they are required to place evidence before a Magistrate before the warrants are issued. It is not a given that warrants will be issued.

Regards

Mark

[ringman]

Police dont need them to hand over the information they can get it themself with a warrant

[thesushitrain]

havent you guys watched 'the wire'


but seriously i hope everyone involved is given life

[triplev123]

i stand to be corrected, but if the NSW police go down the criminal path, then they can compel them to hand over the information or face criminal charges.

[VVV] Indeed they can and then some.
If they gather the required evidence the NSW Organised Crime Squad is going to go these blokes like a dose of Epsom Salts.
Of course, the single most wonderful piece of legislation we have here in this State is the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989.
Being the Law abiding..although thirsting for justice to be done and to be seen to be done...citizen that I am, I have always been rather fond of Part 1, 3. of that Act which states as follows...

3 Principal objects

The principal objects of this Act are:

(a) to deprive persons of the proceeds of, and benefits derived from, the commission of offences against certain laws of the State, and

(b) to provide for the forfeiture of property used in or in connection with the commission of such offences, and

(c) to enable law enforcement authorities effectively to trace such proceeds, benefits and property, and

(d) to provide for the enforcement in the State of forfeiture orders, pecuniary penalty orders and restraining orders made in respect of offences against the laws of other States.
-Knock Knock.

Who's there?

-NSW Sherriff's Office. Where would you like us to park the truck mate? Don't want to mess up all that lovely Sir Walter.

[thesushitrain]

that league investigation is still going, i bet the money involved is nothing compared to this trots rort

[ringman]

These bloke would have been smart enough to cover their assets and not purchase anything once the rorting started because the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989 only covers assets obtained from the crime so nothing will be confiscated .

[aussiebreno]

These bloke would have been smart enough to cover their assets and not purchase anything once the rorting started because the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989 only covers assets obtained from the crime so nothing will be confiscated .

Cash is an asset.

[ringman]

Cash is an asset.

yes i am aware it is but it will be well hidden im sure of that.

[coldshot]

Hubby could do with a new suit. Armani does wonders for a beer gut.

[justdoit]

Armani suits are not that expensive & it is not a good enough reason to Lie, cheat and steal from all harness racing participants. SOB's

A lot of NSWelshmen seen to have small mans syndrome of late, lets hope they can get over it.

[triplev123]

These bloke would have been smart enough to cover their assets and not purchase anything once the rorting started because the Confiscation Of Proceeds Of Crime Act, 1989 only covers assets obtained from the crime so nothing will be confiscated .


[VVV] Ahuh. Well Trooper, while this may well come as a shock to you however...your grasp of the Law appears to be roughly equivalent to the handle that a Wombat could be expected to have on the subject of Nuclear Physics.

[ringman]

[VVV] Ahuh. Well Trooper, while this may well come as a shock to you however...your grasp of the Law appears to be roughly equivalent to the handle that a Wombat could be expected to have on the subject of Nuclear Physics.
Is that so legal eagle hmmmmmmmmmm well let me bring you up to date with the Law as it stands today. they cant take a thing unless its proven to have been obtained with the proceeds of crime.
you see under your laws if a bloke wins 10 mil in a lottery they can take it through the legal system if the bloke is in this rort.sorry only if they can proove the money he purchased the ticket with is proceeds of crime and of course he gets found guilty.

For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?

[thesushitrain]

there is an exception for drug cases


i'm with ringman here, these blokes will have nothing substantial to be taken even if they do prove how they got it

for all the money he supposedly spent on suits he never bothered to shell out to get them tailored properly

[aussiebreno]

yes i am aware it is but it will be well hidden im sure of that.

$100 is $100. It doesn't have to be the same $100 note; just a $100 note.

[triplev123]

Ringman writes [For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?]


I'd like to apologise to the forum for giving that imbecile Oxygen by way of responding. I'll not make the same mistake again.

[thesushitrain]

$100 is $100. It doesn't have to be the same $100 note; just a $100 note.

yeah but if they have 50 cents in assets and in the bank...and 20k no one can find, then they are in the clear for civil cases, you can't bleed a stone

[David Summers]

Ringman writes [For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?]


I'd like to apologise to the forum for giving that imbecile Oxygen by way of responding. I'll not make the same mistake again.

Amen to that , triple. I just ignore that flamer's posts completely.

[ringman]

Ringman writes [For a square head you profess to know a lot about law hmmmmmmmmm sure your not a part of this rort ?]


I'd like to apologise to the forum for giving that imbecile Oxygen by way of responding. I'll not make the same mistake again.

oh dear she(VVV) has thrown the rattle out of the pram yet again:p when someone posts facts not fiction about law.win lose or draw i am with you all !!! give them life.but somehow i know it will happen again as it has for decades.

[Mister JayKO]

How far away are we from realistically having some people charged or asked to front inquiries? I realise it's a delicate balancing act - the need for everything to be done correctly against the need for some swift action to be taken to prevent wrong doers continuing to prosper. If I recall in the CJ Gleeson case at some point he was actually stood down and the horses all transferred to other trainers. I remember backing a friendless Coloresque at 7-1 on a Friday night at his first run for DR Hancock prior to his unfortunate demise.

[triplev123]

Coloresque eh? Geeze. There's a blast from the past. Years later by absolute chance I met the person formally known as Paul Skinner in of all places a Pub at Drummoyne. Thought he looked familiar but for quite a while I couldn't place his face. He was still betting on Harness Racing as I recall.

[The Rainmaker]

Just to put this whole saga into perspective in comparison to Chris Gleeson and the Coloresque scandal back in the mid 90's, think of this. Gleeson deliberatley pulled his horse with a fake gear problem in one race, and backed the opposition, the only people this would have had a detrimental effect on would be the punters who backed Coloresque in that one race, and the owners of the horse (and thats if they did not know what was going on). Gleeson was swiftly made an example of and rubbed out for 'life' (I believe his disqualification was overturned last year, some 14 years after the event).

And now:

We have several trainers and drivers, bribing officials to get 'the green light' so they will not be swabbed after a particular race, and proceed to 'juice' their runners and plunge on the horses in those races. If there were 10 runners in the race, it has a detrimental effect to all the owners of the 9 other horses, all the trainers of the 9 other horses and all punters who backed the 9 other horses. Now thats just from one race, this has happened in multiple races over many, many months, so add all that up. And what are HRNSW doing now it's all come out into the open? They are sheltering those involved, and they are actually letting them continue to participate in our sport. It is an absolute joke. I believe HRNSW would be wise to hit this nail on the head as soon as possible, name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later. The longer this drags on the more and more honest people will keep walking away from our sport.

[Paleface]

here here rainmaker, couldnt agree with you more. Stop this pussyfooting around and start taking action

[Toohard]

Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ringman]

Just to put this whole saga into perspective in comparison to Chris Gleeson and the Coloresque scandal back in the mid 90's, think of this. Gleeson deliberatley pulled his horse with a fake gear problem in one race, and backed the opposition, the only people this would have had a detrimental effect on would be the punters who backed Coloresque in that one race, and the owners of the horse (and thats if they did not know what was going on). Gleeson was swiftly made an example of and rubbed out for 'life' (I believe his disqualification was overturned last year, some 14 years after the event).

And now:

We have several trainers and drivers, bribing officials to get 'the green light' so they will not be swabbed after a particular race, and proceed to 'juice' their runners and plunge on the horses in those races. If there were 10 runners in the race, it has a detrimental effect to all the owners of the 9 other horses, all the trainers of the 9 other horses and all punters who backed the 9 other horses. Now thats just from one race, this has happened in multiple races over many, many months, so add all that up. And what are HRNSW doing now it's all come out into the open? They are sheltering those involved, and they are actually letting them continue to participate in our sport. It is an absolute joke. I believe HRNSW would be wise to hit this nail on the head as soon as possible, name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later. The longer this drags on the more and more honest people will keep walking away from our sport.

Thats the best post ive seen on here well done Rainmaker

[coldshot]

I agree too. They made some pretty strong statements about what they were going to do early on that were encouraging but its all gone off the boil a bit recently. Some actions to back up the words would do wonders for everyone.

[aussiebreno]

I too would absolutely love to have these bastards f***ed off forever and a day. The initial wait will, hopefully, be worth it. But HRNSW can't go naming and getting rid of blokes. Innocent to proven guilty is the law.

[Flashing Red]

The initial wait will, hopefully, be worth it. But HRNSW can't go naming and getting rid of blokes. Innocent to proven guilty is the law.

Not only that, but if they don't follow procedure these guys will get off due to technicalities/natural justice arguments.


name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later.

You do it this way Rainmaker, these people will be back within 5 minutes - THAT is the ramification. You can't just be a bull at the gate and worry about ramifications later!! Then they well and truly won't be "rubbed out for life" as you put it :)

[Mark Croatto]

And what are HRNSW doing now it's all come out into the open? They are sheltering those involved, and they are actually letting them continue to participate in our sport. It is an absolute joke. I believe HRNSW would be wise to hit this nail on the head as soon as possible, name and shame these cheats, rub them out and worry about the ramifications later. The longer this drags on the more and more honest people will keep walking away from our sport.

Some of you people have absolutely no idea about the legal course that needs to be taken. To worry about the ramifications later will only serve to ensure those that have gutted our sport will continue to remain participants. The days of dishing out disqualifications as in the Gleeson example are long gone! Today, more than ever, people know or think they know their rights. Their propensity to appeal penalties is second nature and all one has to do is look at the list of disqualifications and suspension that have been upheld at appeal over the last 2 years.

HRNSW have done the only thing possible by involving the NSW police. There are numerous criminal allegations that require investigation and the most reasonable and logical thing to do is to wait until they have been resolved before HRNSW takes actions in the form of disqualifications etc. For Sam and co to jump in now and deal with participants runs the extreme risk of jeopardising evidence that police require to successfuly prosecute those suspected of criminal actions. It's time some of you moved into the 21st Century and actually took note of reality rather than firing from the hip without thought!

Mark

[justdoit]

I have not read this thread completely, so this could have already been stated. HRNSW should announce that they will update the public every week or every two weeks on the progress of the case,
it would not matter if they could not inform us with any new information, but it would be a comforting reminder for many people to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess.

[Thevoiceofreason]

I have not read this thread completely, so this could have already been stated. HRNSW should announce that they will update the public every week or every two weeks on the progress of the case,
it would not matter if they could not inform us with any new information, but it would be a comforting reminder for many people to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess.

Let me start by saying there may no longer need to any further posts from the voice with" aussiebreno Flashing Red and Mark Groatto" all making so much sense.

I have a news flash for you Justdoit, it was just on a week ago that HRNSW warned off a driver Robbie Byrnes for failing to comply with directions in relation to this investigation.

Now I may be naive to the ways of the world but for me that is pretty comforting reminder that they are still working towards the end.

For those that do not know "warned Off" is the same as a disqualification except it has no expiry date so in real terms it is like getting life. pretty serious penalty and there have been two now since this all started.

I would have to check but I doubt justice was that swift with anyone in the "Coloresque" investigation.

They. that is HRNSW are doing a sterling job.

[justdoit]

Your to good for me Voiceofreason,
My mistake, I should have put "it would be a comforting reminder for many the general public to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess".
It could also be naive of me:) in thinking that the masses only see the headlines.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Your to good for me Voiceofreason,
My mistake, I should have put "it would be a comforting reminder for many the general public to know that they are still working towards the end of this mess".
It could also be naive of me:) in thinking that the masses only see the headlines.

With the greatest of respect the headlines show very clearly that the investigation continues full swing.

At this point in time considering the obvious complexities of this case any more information in the public arena may well work against the investigative process.

Remember after all it was the NSW police task force that put the gag order on HRNSW in relation to their media statements.

[The Rainmaker]

I agree that the police taskforce should take as long as they need to gather evidence against all those involved. However, HRNSW came out a couple of months ago, saying they will drop names, wielding the stick so to speak, and ready to take action, and now they've gone all quiet on the matter, as though hopefully it's going to go away. We have a driver in his 20's who admitted guilt in regards to the cheating, and apparently another leading driver as well who has already enlisted top legal aid. If these blokes have come forward and claim to have participated in the rorting, why cannot they be named and shamed, they admitted guilt for god sake. Instead they're allowed to continue participating, basically spitting in the face of every honest trainer when they show up to the track on race night.

My issue here is how quiet HRNSW has gone on this matter, after coming out all guns blazing before. If they are seriously doing something about it, I believe they should be making weekly media statements to inform all honest participants where they are up to with proceedings and how far along the matter has come etc. whilst keeping the gag order in mind.

[eliteblood]

Why don't we asume that the police have a better idea than us on how to successfully conduct an investigation

[coldshot]

I agree too. They made some pretty strong statements about what they were going to do early on that were encouraging but its all gone off the boil a bit recently. Some actions to back up the words would do wonders for everyone.

I've given things more thought since my last post and in retrospect I suppose a desire for vengeance, for want of a better word, got in the way of good judgement. The dual investigations should take as long as is required to prove guilt and, hopefully, punishments meted out will fit the crime. This being racing I am sure that there is a whole lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes to complicate matters as well.

The people at HRNSW might want to say more however if their hands are tied, then they are tied.

[justdoit]

Voiceofreason, I do see your point.

Does anyone else get a cold shiver when it is mentioned that NSW police are investigating this????

[justdoit]

Voiceofreason, I understand your point.

Does anyone else get a cold shiver when the NSW police are mentioned as being the ones investigating this??????????'

[triplev123]

Well said Flashing, Breno, VOR & Mark C.
Unfortunately legally dispensed justice is rarely if ever as swift as the wronged parties would like it to be... but in this case, while it will certainly take considerable time I believe that it will ultimately be very extensive and long lasting.
The comprehensive lack of understand of the Law displayed in some of the comments to this thread is quite astounding to say the least.
The fact is that if every single t is not crossed and every single i is not dotted, that sets up immediate grounds for lack of due process/denial of natural justice appeals...and this extends to both HRNSW and the NSW Police.
People should not allow themselves to forget that it is the Organised Crime Squad that is on the case here. A few blokes I went to school with are no Detectives and a couple are Federal Police and those guys in Organised Crime are the hard arses of the hard arses.This is not a rising 2yrs in the Force local General Duties Constable taking a statement over the counter at your local Police Station. I want a reckoning as badly as anyone but we need to sit tight and let the fellas do their job.

[Mister JayKO]

Well said Flashing, Breno, VOR & Mark C.
Unfortunately legally dispensed justice is rarely if ever as swift as the wronged parties would like it to be... but in this case, while it will certainly take considerable time I believe that it will ultimately be very extensive and long lasting.
The comprehensive lack of understand of the Law displayed in some of the comments to this thread is quite astounding to say the least.
The fact is that if every single t is not crossed and every single i is not dotted, that sets up immediate grounds for lack of due process/denial of natural justice appeals...and this extends to both HRNSW and the NSW Police.
People should not allow themselves to forget that it is the Organised Crime Squad that is on the case here. A few blokes I went to school with are no Detectives and a couple are Federal Police and those guys in Organised Crime are the hard arses of the hard arses.This is not a rising 2yrs in the Force local General Duties Constable taking a statement over the counter at your local Police Station. I want a reckoning as badly as anyone but we need to sit tight and let the fellas do their job.

I'm well versed in the law and understand the processes that have to be followed here and I'm just as well aware of the need to follow procedure from a Harness Racing rules point of view as well. As I said earlier it's a balancing act in terms of both sides because while it lingers on the integrity of the industry from an external point of view continues to take a hammering. If you haven't had someone from outside the industry ask you exactly what is going on then you are in the minority. When it does break - it's going to be bigger than the now defunct Ben Hur.

It's quite clear that some big players in this are already "lawyering up" in an attempt to extend their tenure in the sport.

This is to my knowledge the first investigation where the police have been involved for a long time. I am aware of ICAC allegations and personally I thought the Coloresque incident was a no brainer for prosecution but for whatever reason it never went ahead.

In part I have to agree with Ringman in some regard. I have seen many rorts played out over my time in the sport, the middle 90's in Sydney was a low time, form guides became irrelevant, the key was whether or not the stewards were testing for TC02 on the said night. Whilst they may not be as sophisticated as the current one, a rort is still a rort. It takes a real eye to know when something's off and to have that eye you have to have some participant knowledge.

On the flipside, Sam Nati is as good an operator as they come and his knowledge in the area is invaluable. Information is king in the punting business. He would make a great Steward and I suppose as CEO that is what he is. His past (as a Punter) is largely irrelevant. I remember being in the ring with him one night at HP - we knew one was off (based upon the activity in the ring) and just shook our heads.

It's a hard one but I reckon we need to get away from the matey relationships between stewards / administrators and participants that have blighted the industry in the past. There will be some very embarrassing times ahead when poster kids are outed in this rort.

They need life bans and full prosecution - nothing less.

[The Rainmaker]

I think everyone here is on the same page, we all want what is best for the sport in regards to this matter. The way I see it is there are two different opinions here, there is the ‘correct opinion’, which is let the investigation take its course no matter how long it takes, innocent til proven guilty etc. And that’s fine, I don’t disagree with that. And there is also the ‘dudded opinion’, which is doing what’s right for the honest participants out there, whom feel duded and violated, whom want this matter dealt with as soon as possible, and for those involved to be named and shamed, of which there are many people actively involved in the sport who continue to face these alleged rorters and cheats everytime they turn up to Menangle on a Tuesday afternoon, Penrith on a Thursday night and Menangle on a Saturday night still allowed to participate. The fact there are drivers out there who have admitted guilt in the rorts and have not been stood down or publicly named is beyond me. I’d like to make the following comments on the matters thus far:

1. Mark Vallender and Robbie Byrnes ‘Warned Off’

These two named who failed to hand over phone records, and then warned off all racecourses, but they cannot name those currently co-operating with the investigation? Wouldn’t this make those who are co-operating with the investigation look less suspect than those who were warned off? The harness racing public have a right to know who is under investigation without any fingers being pointed until proven guilty if there is such evidence.

2. Legal Representation

The Sydney Morning Herald mention two cases. It mentions a “warned off” driver will be enlisting legal representation to try and overturn the ban. The other one is a leading driver allegedly involved in the rorts has employed one of Sydney’s finest lawyers for his case. The way I see it, if one bloke handed over his phone records, and the other abided by the rules there would be no problem. But now we have such cases that those deliberately breaking the rules enlist high priced lawyers to get them off on technicalities, therefore getting no penalty imposed, and they return to the sport and continue to suck the game dry as they have done in years past. As we all know, legal representation isn’t cheap, so the question should be asked how many participants who are charged and fight their case with high priced lawyers are funding it with the proceeds of their months of rorting to actually get off their charges? Food for thought.

3. Police Strikeforce

I can see this turning into a big ‘White Elephant’, a lot of time and cost for nothing. How many people at the end of this are going to end up in Gaol or with assets and cash repossessed? My guess is none. Supposedly HRNSW were privately investigating the disgraced stewards for 6 months before the infamous day where they ‘tendered their resignations’. Sam Nati then came out and said, “Heads will roll, Houses will be lost” promising swift action, the naming of names etc. This was going on two months ago, and now since HRNSW has gone all quiet and left it to the special strikeforce to work through the investigation. I can understand if there was a gag order from NSW Police, but the honest participants out there want to know that you are keeping on fighting the fight, and that we are going to get answers soon. However, my question is, if HRNSW thought criminal conduct was going on during their initial 6 month internal investigation, why weren't police contacted to set up a secret strikeforce while these stewards were still employed to catch them and the associated trainers and drivers red handed, before the rorts became public knowledge? I cannot see how this strikeforce in place now can pin too much on those involved after the events. I get the feeling the police are going to come up empty handed when HRNSW could already be dealing with these people under their own rules.

At the end of the day the honest participants want the truth and we all want the right result here. I just hope it all comes out sooner rather than later because many participants are becoming impatient.

[David Summers]

They need life bans and full prosecution - nothing less.

And this time let's hope a LIFE ban will actually mean LIFE , not with some clause to let them crawl back from under their rock at some time in the future and be given a license again because of "family circumstances". No second chances this time EVER. http://www.postsmile.net/img/20/2021.gif (http://www.postsmile.com/)

[Flashing Red]

2. Legal Representation

The Sydney Morning Herald mention two cases. It mentions a “warned off” driver will be enlisting legal representation to try and overturn the ban. The other one is a leading driver allegedly involved in the rorts has employed one of Sydney’s finest lawyers for his case. The way I see it, if one bloke handed over his phone records, and the other abided by the rules there would be no problem. But now we have such cases that those deliberately breaking the rules enlist high priced lawyers to get them off on technicalities, therefore getting no penalty imposed, and they return to the sport and continue to suck the game dry as they have done in years past. As we all know, legal representation isn’t cheap, so the question should be asked how many participants who are charged and fight their case with high priced lawyers are funding it with the proceeds of their months of rorting to actually get off their charges? Food for thought.

Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

[Mister JayKO]

Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

The risk is that if procedures aren't followed correctly there is always a chance decisions could be overturned down the track. There was a race at Tamworth a while back that resulted in long suspensions/disqualifications that were subsequently overturned upon appeal. If I was a steward that would be enough for me to turn it up. A lot of the evidence is always circumstantial and in most rorts the driver is always a "victim of circumstance". Again it's a fine line to balance both sides in terms of fairness and maintaining the integrity of the sport but hopefully we can find the happy medium.

I despise the use of Lawyers by persons who wish to escape their right whack on technical grounds. I would find it hard to compete against those who have confessed to being involved in a systematic scam designed to defraud everyone related to the harness racing industry. The damage this has caused to the Industry would be hard to quantify but I'd suggest to you that there are many 000's on the end of it.

[The Rainmaker]

Getting legal representation does not mean someone is guilty of anywrong doing. I would never, ever go to an appeal, hearing, whatever, without legal representation, no matter how small the infraction is. IMHO harness racing hearings, appeals etc have A LOT to be desired in regards to due process/natural justice and I would want to make sure that those prosecuting me are playing within the rules. Has absolutely nothing to do with guilt or innocence.

Your first sentence is right in theory, however, in one of the cases mentioned, a driver was warned off for not supplying the relevant phone records to the authorities as requested. Many people beforehand were asked and obliged to the request. The precedent was set afew weeks earlier when Vallender was warned off for not supplying his records to the authorities. This is pretty cut and dried. He is guilty of not supplying his phone records to the authorities, as HRNSW do not have them, so they acted accordingly and warned him off all racecourses. So the only need for a lawyer in this instance would be to find a loophole for him to resume competing in the sport, without having to supply his phone records. There is no hearing set down or any charges laid in this particular case. If the driver fronts up with the records, the ban is overturned.

[The Rainmaker]

I despise the use of Lawyers by persons who wish to escape their right whack on technical grounds. I would find it hard to compete against those who have confessed to being involved in a systematic scam designed to defraud everyone related to the harness racing industry. The damage this has caused to the Industry would be hard to quantify but I'd suggest to you that there are many 000's on the end of it.

Exactly right, but the writing is on the wall, you know this is exactly what is going to happen when all this comes to a head.

[Shawshank Redemption]

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

[eliteblood]

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

What would you propose that the stewards should do Shawshank ?

[common sense]

There is a lot of speculation as to just who is involved in all this cheating. What about the owners who have horses in these stables that may be outed. How would you feel if you had a live chance in a big race only to have your driver / trainer suspended or outed and required to make these changes days before a big race.

N.S.W. stewards need to do the right thing by owners as this could be a big problem if some large stables are involved.

the same owners pocketing prizemoney and punting money after the stable has cheated for them?

how about owners take a stand and say i don't want to be involved with a cheating stable and send the horses elsewhere

[Flashing Red]

Your first sentence is right in theory, however, in one of the cases mentioned, a driver was warned off for not supplying the relevant phone records to the authorities as requested. Many people beforehand were asked and obliged to the request. The precedent was set afew weeks earlier when Vallender was warned off for not supplying his records to the authorities. This is pretty cut and dried. He is guilty of not supplying his phone records to the authorities, as HRNSW do not have them, so they acted accordingly and warned him off all racecourses. So the only need for a lawyer in this instance would be to find a loophole for him to resume competing in the sport, without having to supply his phone records. There is no hearing set down or any charges laid in this particular case. If the driver fronts up with the records, the ban is overturned.

You are being presumptuous and jumping to conclusions. What has happened may run deeper than phone records. Neither you or I will know until this all gets aired in public, whenever that may be. HRNSW are doing their investigations, of which the phone records pertain - perhaps a lawyer was retained for the criminal side of the investigation. You just don't know. There is a police investigation going on as well, anyone involved with the police, guilty of wrong doing or not, should have a lawyer.

This doesn't mean I don't think those involved shouldn't get their just desserts. I do. :)

[The Rainmaker]

You are being presumptuous and jumping to conclusions. What has happened may run deeper than phone records. Neither you or I will know until this all gets aired in public, whenever that may be. HRNSW are doing their investigations, of which the phone records pertain - perhaps a lawyer was retained for the criminal side of the investigation. You just don't know. There is a police investigation going on as well, anyone involved with the police, guilty of wrong doing or not, should have a lawyer.

This doesn't mean I don't think those involved shouldn't get their just desserts. I do. :)


I don't think I'm being presumptuous or jumping to conclusions, everything I've said has been related to what has been printed in the media, namely the SMH indicating that a source close to the driver said they would be pursuing legal representation to have his ban overturned, which was imposed on him by HRNSW for not supplying his phone records when requested.

There could be more to it, you're right we won't know until it all comes out, but my opinion is only based on what has been reported by the media. I don't mind you that you don't share my point of view, cause as I've said before at the end of the day we all want the same result here, so I'm sure you'd like to see those convicted brought to justice like everyone else.

I think everyone, in every thread I have read in relation to this subject on here have been very diligent when commenting on such issues, not releasing names or shooting from the hip, even though there are posters out there who know plenty about whats going on and it must be hard to keep quiet on the matter.

This is an issue a lot of people in the industry have an opinion on and show some passion about, which can be evidenced by the surge in new forum members signing up and commenting on the related threads. I believe everyones got a valid view, and that alot of people just want to let off some steam regarding the whole situation as they are very upset with what has transpired.

[Flashing Red]

I agree with you, perhaps I misread your post. I just can't see how hiring a lawyer means someone is looking for loopholes, ie not handing in phone records and retaining a lawyer. At this point in time, I think it is a bit of a stretch to make, that's all......

[justdoit]

Your to nice of a person Flashing Red.
Once you have been lied to, stolen from, threatened with and deceived to the largest degree, The faith that you seem to be placing in these type of people will no longer exist.(trust me):)
I would like to hear your thoughts on this, 5 years from now:)

[Thevoiceofreason]

Honestly I have only been a contributor to this forum for a very very very short period of time and it may seem presumptuousness of me to make this comment however i am amazed how few contributors appear to understand how important it is that the powers that be get this right.

I would love it finished tomorrow, but that will not happen, I would love to know who is in the gun, but that will not happen

We should all shut up and let the powers that be either HRNSW or the task force do their job.

My grandmother was not an educated woman however she had a saying which seems very appropriate here " If you have nothing intelligent to add.... than add nothing"

Give it some thought.

[triplev123]

Well said VOR.
If I had pocketed $1.00 for every Bush Lawyer I've encountered I'd be living in Monaco next door to Mick Doohan.
These guys make Lionel Hutz look like F. Lee Bailey.

[justdoit]

Voiceofreason,
This being an open forum I think you are out of order in saying we should all shut up.
If someone does post something that could harm the inquiries I'm sure Admin will see fit to edit it.:) or pass it on to HRNSW, the police.
Lets continue with some open discussions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8keZbZL2ero&feature=related

Could not find the one I wanted, this is still very funny.

[Shawshank Redemption]

VOR "We should all shut up and let the powers that be either HRNSW or the task force do their job".

Justdoit "This being an open forum I think you are out of order in saying we should all shut up."

VOR opened the door and Justdoit closed it.

It appeals to my sense of humour that I can imagine this was said about these races in question before it became public.

Punter 1 "Something funny is going on in these races"
Punter 2 "We should all shut up and let the powers that be "Stewards" do their job.

Sarcasm for those that miss the point !

[aussiebreno]

VOR "We should all shut up and let the powers that be either HRNSW or the task force do their job".

Justdoit "This being an open forum I think you are out of order in saying we should all shut up."

VOR opened the door and Justdoit closed it.

It appeals to my sense of humour that I can imagine this was said about these races in question before it became public.

Punter 1 "Something funny is going on in these races"
Punter 2 "We should all shut up and let the powers that be "Stewards" do their job.
Your sense of humour must have forgot they are two very different circumstances.
Of the people who you would call Punter 2; Myself and VVV have certaintly criticised drives in the past on this forum and VVV has questioned many a steward decision, whilst Flashing Red is just too nice to do that.

[Shawshank Redemption]

Your sense of humour must have forgot they are two very different circumstances.
Of the people who you would call Punter 2; Myself and VVV have certaintly criticised drives in the past on this forum and VVV has questioned many a steward decision, whilst Flashing Red is just too nice to do that.

If no one had questioned what was happening in these races and came forward and commented it would never have been brought into the open.

There was postings regarding apparent team driving on this forum that seemed to prompt stewards reopeing an enquiry.

I agree with questioning what happens !

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done."

[aussiebreno]

If no one had questioned what was happening in these races and came forward and commented it would never have been brought into the open.

There was postings regarding apparent team driving on this forum that seemed to prompt stewards reopeing an enquiry.

I agree with questioning what happens !

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done."
So what; HRNSW have warned off 2 people; the latest of them just a week ago and now they've stopped pursuing this? Ok then mate.

[triplev123]

Your sense of humour must have forgot they are two very different circumstances.
Of the people who you would call Punter 2; Myself and VVV have certaintly criticised drives in the past on this forum and VVV has questioned many a steward decision, whilst Flashing Red is just too nice to do that.


While it was quite obviously neccessary, IMO the re-opening of the Beef City Beau inquiry ultimately proved to be an absolute waste of time.
I say this because, as an onlooker, it appeared to get itself inexplicably sidetracked & duly run up a nice old dry gully when it got hung up on whether or not Fleur De Lil was supported.
Blind Freddy could tell it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with her or with Luke, rather it most likely had everything to do with the short priced fav. leader being layed by a person or persons unknown.
To this day I still cannot believe more did not come of all it.
Not even so much as a change of tactics charge for old mate up there & hammering away at the fav. from the breeze with a clearly well into double figure odds one trick, leave & immediately look for cover horse that, once its job was done, ultimately dropped out like it had been handed a fully stocked chest freezer.

Prior to that, there was an absolutely shocking drive at Newcastle on the Newcastle Club's Syndicate horse that slipped through the net unquestioned despite the protests of many an onlooker including the entire ensemble of The Blind Boys Of Alabama. That was re-opened too if I recall it correctly.

Since then, back on July 30th and shortly before the dastardly duo said their goodbyes, we watched with absolute incredulity as Bankstown's answer to The Arthur Murray Dance School strutted its stuff in Race 1.

http://www.arthurmurraypalmdesert.com/img/AKcloseup.jpg
You step in, I'll step out, you bury it in the pocket and pretend to shake it all about.

In a strange twist of fate, Arthur Murray (as seen here above cutting the rug with his dear wife, Kathryn) & the driver of Smokin Luke in that race, R. Byrnes, are not entirely dissimilar in appearance.

If that effort was worth a mere 4 weeks I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes.

Not exactly Golden Moments in NSW Stewarding any of these, IMO.

Like the actual Stewards Report format, we're obviously coming off a very low base...they too IMO have been nothing short appalling for quite some time... BUT credit where it's due, in the last month or so things have improved immeasurably, so much better...like another planet as compared... and it is there that I fully expect they will stay.

[Flashing Red]

I don't like to jump to conclusions because it has caught me out before and I've been made to look like a goose. I also know from experience that the proper process has to be followed otherwise the gate is wide open for appeals, or even worse, people being let off. I also probably come across a little more diplomatic here than what I otherwise would if you saw me at the races, hehe :) I think Triple can testify how worked up I can get about something I'm passionate about!! :D

[triplev123]

It is true you are a good woman. Then again, you may be the antichrist. ;)

[Daryl New]

Ryan tandy was stood down while under investigation wasn't he ?

[aussiebreno]

Ryan tandy was stood down while under investigation wasn't he ?

Whatever happened its a completely different set of circumstances. Tandy was an employee of the Bulldogs.

[triplev123]

Ryan tandy was stood down while under investigation wasn't he ?

[VVV] G'day Darryl, the difference is that Tandy was still being paid whilst stood down from active duty. Standing anyone in Harness Racing down while they're under investigation but haven't been charged with anything as such takes away their right to earn a living and supplies them with a ready made appeal. You and I and most everyone else have strong suspicions as to the identity of most if not all of those involved... but under the eyes of the Law that's not enough.