Distances

[doinmabest]

I heard that the Menangle 2300m races will be shortened to 2200m after supposed concerns raised by trainers regarding the distance being too difficult on younger horses.

Has anyone else heard whether this is accurate?

[triplev123]

Nah, nothing here. Usually hear stuff like that and haven't heard a word.
All the 2yo events I've seen out there have gone over the Mile anyway. Maybe they sent them over 2300m at some stage but I can't recall it happening.
If it's indeed true then my reaction is that it's a bit ridiculous to think 100m less will make any difference at all.
If they're not going to punch out the 2300m then what makes anyone think they'll magically punch out 2200m?

[doinmabest]

Yeah I will ask at the track today Triple, I was just curious as I am a little with you, not sure it will make much difference.

[Gtrain]

If they cut the 100 off the end it will help because thats where the horses tire. But 100 shorter at the start wont make any difference.

[triplev123]

If they cut the 100 off the end it will help because thats where the horses tire. But 100 shorter at the start wont make any difference.

[VVV] I can see your point there however I'm not sure that I agree. I think they should take 100m out somewhere in the middle of the race if they want to make a meaningful difference.

[Gtrain]

[vvv] i can see your point there however i'm not sure that i agree. I think they should take 100m out somewhere in the middle of the race if they want to make a meaningful difference.
lol!!!

[doinmabest]

Gold VVV

[Flashing Red]

I think they should have distances OTHER than 1609m and 2300m. They need a longer distance, like 2800m too.

[bbd]

For a 2800 they would have to start at the winning post and go 2 laps. It might be better to go 3000. That way they can start at the current 1600 where they obviously already have timing set up.

[Flashing Red]

Yes, whatever the distance, I feel that they should have a distance longer than 2300m and hold 1-2 races at this distance at every meeting. I think that the mile races should be the most prominant, but also have 2300m and the longer distances too...

[thesushitrain]

let me guess...fitzpatricks want the change, they'd change the track back to harold park if they could! the boys only know one way, lead- walk- sprint

taking 100m off will make a big difference... to the draw! horses from the inside will hit the turn 100m earlier and be easier to hold out horses outside them

[David Summers]

Yeah I will ask at the track today Triple, I was just curious as I am a little with you, not sure it will make much difference.

If you find out any info about that damn timing system showing the full mile rate as they go past the post , would be appreciated too. It was several months ago that this was announced that steps were in place to have the software "tweaked". Thanks for stopping the "and change" for the decimal point of the unknown mile rate :o

Have a good day. Great weather so far.

[David Summers]

Just watched the first at Menangle on Sky. Anyone know what the two large square metal structures are behind the advertising boards at the 200 metres and 100 metres? Are they for future giant video screens or something else?

[doinmabest]

Cheers ozi , no news on timing system but keep tuned for the distance variations....
Flashing, there have been some 3009m races but only one in the past 2 years however I believe
They would like to have a few open class pacers and trotters races over
This distance in coming months!

[David Summers]

Thanks FH, what are the two large structures on the inside of the straight I mentioned in my last post?

[doinmabest]

Spot on Ozi, giant screens they will be!

[David Summers]

Wow, that will be a great improvement. Thanks FH.

[Flashing Red]

Cheers ozi , no news on timing system but keep tuned for the distance variations....
Flashing, there have been some 3009m races but only one in the past 2 years however I believe
They would like to have a few open class pacers and trotters races over
This distance in coming months!

I would like to see a distance greater than 2300m but less than 3000m personally (most tracks have a 2700m-2800m etc distance) but I guess now I am getting picky! :)

[David Summers]

Saw on In The Gig that now the extra cost for the increased drug testing throughout NSW will no longer mean reductions in prizemoney, as was previously mooted. It's now coming out of "interest from investments" or something like that , whatever that might mean. At least some sanity prevails.

[triplev123]

I would like to see a distance greater than 2300m but less than 3000m personally (most tracks have a 2700m-2800m etc distance) but I guess now I am getting picky! :)

[VVV] Thinking of bringing the old boy out of retirement? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Flashing Red]

The way I'm told he runs around his field in NZ, he probably should! He was a deadset big track horse. Sad what happened to him, Menangle would have been right up his alley. :(

[aussiebreno]

[VVV] Thinking of bringing the old boy out of retirement? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Hahaha!


The way I'm told he runs around his field in NZ, he probably should! He was a deadset big track horse. Sad what happened to him, Menangle would have been right up his alley. :(
You and Double Identity at Menangle, two awesome grand circuit winners but would have been absolutely amazing at Menangle.

[triplev123]

He sure would have LOVED that track.

[2minuteman]

[VVV] I can see your point there however I'm not sure that I agree. I think they should take 100m out somewhere in the middle of the race if they want to make a meaningful difference.
I think you will find that to please everybody they will take 75 from the start and 25 from the finish

[triplev123]

I think you will find that to please everybody they will take 75 from the start and 25 from the finish

[VVV] Hahahahahaha. That's funnier than mine.

[David Summers]

I think you will find that to please everybody they will take 75 from the start and 25 from the finish

2minuteman, I hope it was not your wife or girlfriend who suggested that nickname;)

[doinmabest]

Hopefully as of today's meeting accurate times will
Appear on the semaphore board as they cross the
Line......no fractions to be confirmed or change......

[David Summers]

Thanks for that Fred. I'll be glued to my TV screen this afternoon waiting to see that happen , at long last.

All the best and good calling today.

[David Summers]

Has anyone heard anything further about reducing the 2300 metre races at Menangle to 2200 metres? I like the idea myself.

[Flashing Red]

Providing they add another distance in, longer than that (but less than 2 miles) - I think it would be a great idea :)

[doinmabest]

What about 2400m jumping at the 1000m.........

[bbd]

Unless they are going to spend a lot of money on extra timing equipment, any start has to be where that timing already exists i.e. 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2300 start and finishing post.
So with that in mind, you could start at the 1200 and make it a 2600m race but would require them to start on a bend. The only way to have another distance without installing new timing or starting on a bend is to have a 3000m starting at the 1600 and doing 2 laps, starting at the finishing post and going 2800m or start at the 800 and go 2200m.

[David Summers]

What about 2400m jumping at the 1000m.........

Fred , I heard that they were cutting back to 2200 to make things a bit easier for younger horses in progressing from 1609 to 2300. I think 2400 would be far too much of a leap in distance if that is what they are wanting to change it for.

BTW, any idea when we will see another one of those 20 horse fields over the 3009? That last trotters race that you called so well was great although it must have been a "little" bit of a nightmare to call http://www.postsmile.net/img/20/2004.gif (http://www.postsmile.com/)

[Flashing Red]

Unless they are going to spend a lot of money on extra timing equipment, any start has to be where that timing already exists i.e. 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2300 start and finishing post.
So with that in mind, you could start at the 1200 and make it a 2600m race but would require them to start on a bend. The only way to have another distance without installing new timing or starting on a bend is to have a 3000m starting at the 1600 and doing 2 laps, starting at the finishing post and going 2800m or start at the 800 and go 2200m.

I know they start at the winning post at the Meadowlands, but I don't really like that.

I think they should just spend some more money personally. They are going to build barns, upgrade the stabling facility.... why not add a new, longer distance to the track so they can race at least 3 distances like every other track in Australia.

While I love 2 mile races, I would still prefer to see the Menangle "long distance" to be shorter than that (say 2600m so they don't have to start at the turn and make their 2300m a shorter distance, whatever it turns out to be). If that means adding a new marker and timing system for it, then so be it. They have the money :)

[doinmabest]

Sorry to re-hash an oldie but I understand there will be NO 2200m start implemented at Menangle..... This is due to the short run to the first turn.

HOWEVER, watch for the Blue Riband 3yo Classics move to 2400m

[David Summers]

Hope you had a good holiday.

Thanks Fred , it's a shame, I would have liked to have seen 2200 metre racing at Menangle.

Well, 2400 metres , that's interesting , but only for the classics and not at other times? Looks like that from your post.

While I have your attention Fred :-) is there any prospect in the near future of one of those 3009 standing start races with up to 20 starters? You called one at Menangle about a year ago , and , although am no fan of standing starts, it was one of the best spectacles I have seen in a long time. Most of the horses were on their best behaviour and the huge field turning into the long Menangle straight was some sight. Fans I know still talk about that race.

It might be an idea for Menangle to have a couple now and then and promote them and give the race some sort of special name/ good prizemoney etc. Just a thought. Any promotions that can attract attention to harness racing should be worth trying.

[doinmabest]

David, not over 3009m but this weekend a 2300m stand for trotters with 16 runners

[TSW]

Sorry to re-hash an oldie but I understand there will be NO 2200m start implemented at Menangle..... This is due to the short run to the first turn.

HOWEVER, watch for the Blue Riband 3yo Classics move to 2400m

If they had a 2200m start, how far to the first corner? Would it be shorter than any other track in NSW?

[doinmabest]

Tim it would be a run of 200m to the first turn which is a longer run than some tracks but with 10 runners and the speed that may be generated I think it became a safety issue......

[TSW]

Tim it would be a run of 200m to the first turn which is a longer run than some tracks but with 10 runners and the speed that may be generated I think it became a safety issue......

I disagree ( the beauty of Forums), with the 'shorter' run to first corner, those out wide makeup their mind much earlier not to burn themselves up and giving their horses more in the tank for the run home. I have found that many horses that do have the early gate speed and are usual leaders, when eased out at the start their run home times are much better than is their norm. Too many horses are trained to burn out and therefore if unable to lead, pull their heads off. That's where the skill of a true horseman comes into play.

[David Summers]

David, not over 3009m but this weekend a 2300m stand for trotters with 16 runners

Thanks for the "heads up" Fred. Look forward to it. Good calling this weekend.

[Daryl New]

Yes, whatever the distance, I feel that they should have a distance longer than 2300m and hold 1-2 races at this distance at every meeting. I think that the mile races should be the most prominant, but also have 2300m and the longer distances too...
Rumours Rumours Rumours The timing device has been installed at the 2400m mark, there is a trial tomorrow over that distance. as far as other distances, we should be looking at 3000m (starting at the 200m ) for both stand and mobile. I ca hear you already Jaimie but we need to cater to all tyles of horses and afterall there is that many Kiwis over here they are used to the stand.

[doinmabest]

Daryl,
I am positive the Oaks and Derby will be run at the Blue Riband Distance of 2400m
Definately not Rumour!

[Danno]

Rumours Rumours Rumours The timing device has been installed at the 2400m mark, there is a trial tomorrow over that distance. as far as other distances, we should be looking at 3000m (starting at the 200m ) for both stand and mobile. I ca hear you already Jaimie but we need to cater to all tyles of horses and afterall there is that many Kiwis over here they are used to the stand.

G'day Daryl,
I know I'm going to get caned for this but I honestly believe we need to re-introduce more standing start racing here in NSW. I know it's unpalateable to commercial breeders because of the racetime factor, but wouldn't you think a horses overall race performances and earnings would be of more consideration than a time? Particularly now when we have Menangle, where the most average of horses can post impressive sounding miles, which make times achieved at other tracks seem slow? They all can't race at menangle every week.

That aside, some horses are better placed from the stand and hence give the poor old owners another avenue of getting some additional return on their investment and I know I sound like a broken record, but I'll say it again and again...if nobody cares about the owners, one day the owners won't be there to pay the bills to produce the racing product.
I have been in this game for over forty years and the poor long suffering owners are still getting the rough end of the pineapple. They are without any doubt the most neglected and under represented group of people in this game but are responsible for the purchase and maintenance of the racing product!!! Un-bloody-believable!

I know some people are gunna bring out the " horses missing the kick" story but I reckon thats a lame arguement, look at the number of horses that miss the kick in mobiles, and what about the horses that are beaten before the start because of the barrier draw?

Anyway I hope that opens up some debate, cos I reckon the wrong thing has been going on for too long, standing starts should make up 50% of races at ALL levels.

Cheers,

Dan

[Itisi]

I think it has a lot to do with the turnover on stand races not as good as mobile starts, maybe go the walk up start,less interference.

[Danno]

I think it has a lot to do with the turnover on stand races not as good as mobile starts, maybe go the walk up start,less interference.

G'day Mick,
I'm not sure what the current situation is with regards to turnover on stands in NSW or for that matter elsewhere, I would reckon in jurisdictions where stands are still common, like Victoria and NZ there wouldn't be a significant difference either way, as the punters would take them in their stride, as would the the horses and horsemen.
I might try and do some home work on that aspect and if anyone can help with short cuts to info that'd be appreciated.

Having said that I wouldn't close my mind to other methods as you mentioned like walk-up starts, at least the barrier draw would not have the same degree of impact it has now and owners get other options.

[Danno]

Yes Adam,
I was dissappointed to see they didn't stand up, there were some people on this forum bagging them for even being programmed. I had a mare in work at the time that may have been well placed but she went amiss...

I hope they continue to be programmed rather than discarded altogether, people will eventually realise the potential, all they need to do is spend some time educating their horses to the stand, get Qu'd and it's another option.

Newcastle were programming stands a bit here and there and have for the past few years run the "Hawkesbury to Hunter" stand heats and final series which has been a huge success.

Thanks for the info about the turnover and it doesn't surprise me, particularly the usual price range of the favourites, as we do seem to be seeing a big run in "shorties" at the moment and thats not good for the game.

Cheers,

Dan

[broncobrad]

Dan I can see your point, and you give valid reasons why standing starts still have a place in 2012. If trainers brought there well drilled charges to the races week in/week out and they stepped faultlessly I would agree with you. I know a bloke up here who says "Ya know the best place for a trotter"? Nah. "In a greyhounds guts".

And everytime you see those starts where it looks like someone has just farted and everyone runs in a different direction to escape the stench it validates his arguement. And I hate his arguement because what happens is indefendable in this day and age when you have to protect the punter. No punter, no industry.

[Danno]

Dan I can see your point, and you give valid reasons why standing starts still have a place in 2012. If trainers brought there well drilled charges to the races week in/week out and they stepped faultlessly I would agree with you. I know a bloke up here who says "Ya know the best place for a trotter"? Nah. "In a greyhounds guts".

And everytime you see those starts where it looks like someone has just farted and everyone runs in a different direction to escape the stench it validates his arguement. And I hate his arguement because what happens is indefendable in this day and age when you have to protect the punter. No punter, no industry.

I hear what you're saying Brad, but there are people who say that sort of crap everywhere,
" The trotters all get stuck on the fence" the peolple who were saying this ten years ago still say it despite passing lanes constucted at many tracks.
" the trotting races take too long" these same people back gallops races of all distances.

What I'm saying is these people are not about to change their mind so they're not gunna punt on the trots anyway, are they?

Mate I squirm when I see a shitty start too, but the more horses and people are doing it, the better they'll get, when I was a lad, standing starts were just about all we had. the occasional mobile, but they were mainly at HP. The standing starts were almost problem free, infact I would wager there are more horses missing the start in mobiles these days than there were horses missing the start in stands back then. Exposure mate, and nobody gets it till it's available.

I know we need punters Brad, but we need owners too and I see the stands or a variation like walk ups as a means of assisting the owners to get a return and stay in the game.

Cheers,

Dan

[Daryl New]

Dan,

I recently worked with the Penrith Club to try and get standing start events up and running of a Thursday night.

They programmed races in January and February for out of form horses (not won $2,000 in their last 3 starts) up to C2, later changed to no better than M0 to make the eligible pool bigger after the lower grade attracted no interest.

Handicap marks are based on $ won last 3 starts, therefore a terribly out of form C2 (or M0 as it stands now) would be off the front.

They were all about providing variety for horses that had been struggling to earn in mobile start events in a race where they would have been in against horses of equal ability.

The races were promoted from early December through personal emails to the stakeholder email database, official notices on harness.org.au and in Trotguide.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17452

Nothing else could have been done to get them up and running.

To date none of them have been run due to a lack of nominations.

Next weeks programmed event is as follows:

PEC23021212SSCONDITIONED STANDING START$4,500 No Restriction,
2525
RBD
For horses assessed no better than M0 which have not won more than $2, 000 in their last 3 starts. FT-$0-$500 last 3 starts, 10m-$501- $1, 000 last 3 starts, 20m-$1, 001-$1, 500 last 3 starts, 30m-$1, 501-$2, 000 last 3 starts.
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

These same races were programmed in QLD when I was the Handicapper up there, they were well patronised, produced predominately $2.50 to $5.00 favourites and on many occasions $20-$50 chances won the races.

BTW, stands hold their own with mobile races on most occasions due to the extended lead in time (exposure) the race gets because it takes longer to get them away.

Cheers,

Adam.
Adam the original conditions where not open enough, the new conditions are far more appropriate and i will support them. Lets get even more progressive and maybe even go down the path of the trotters and spread the prizemoney similarly

[Daryl New]

Fred thats what I was alluding to and you did call that trial today. You certainly made a two horse trial interesting

[broncobrad]

Like I said Dan you make valid points. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Like you when I was a lad in NQ, all we had were standing starts too and those old nags knew what was going on when those strands went back. God, those were the days eh.

[Danno]

Like I said Dan you make valid points. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Like you when I was a lad in NQ, all we had were standing starts too and those old nags knew what was going on when those strands went back. God, those were the days eh.

The "good old days" as my old boss years ago used to say " yeah I remember the good old days...both of them!!"

Be a boring old world if everyone agreed on everything Brad.

Cheers

[Harold Parker]

2300m races at Menangle are a blast. The arms fold back, they're in formation within 100m, you head to the fridge, take the top off a Squires and return 2 minutes later and you've not missed a thing : )

[Harold Parker]

2400m and I'm bringing back a bowl of pretzels too.

[doinmabest]

Gold HP...Funny stuff but you must be doing alright to be on the Squires...lol

[David Summers]

Happy birthday for yesterday Fred. Hope you had a good one!

What does that now make you , 25 ?? :D

[doinmabest]

Hahaha I wish David, thanks for the birthday wishes, let us just say that I celebrated the 25th anniversary of my 21st birthday.......
Cheers Mate