New Stallion discount/bonus scheme in Vic for May/June

[Messenger]

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/breeding-bonus-115-5k-of-certificates-may-june/

77 fillies and mares races in Vic in May/June will give the breeder a $1,000 stallion discount and the owner a $500 stallion discount

(Note: moved from Positives Only thread - to enable discussion)

[Messenger]

I couldn't put this in the 'Positives only' thread.
Someone suggested to me that the new Vic stallion bonus initiative may only see the recipients reduce their breeding cost rather than cover more mares
What we need next is an initiative for small breeders with broodmares in the paddock that they can’t afford to have covered.

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/breeding-bonus-115-5k-of-certificates-may-june/

[Messenger]

Alternative suggestion I received:

A grant scheme whereby owners of broodmares that weren’t covered last season could apply for a grant towards having the mare covered in the coming season by either a Vic based or Australian owned stallion. Draw up a list of eligible stallions, and grant criteria. Say $750 for each mare, with $250 increases for things like, winning mare, winner producing mare, sibling to winning/ winner producing mare. Money payable to stallion owner on 42 positive test.

[TeeGeeEmm]

As an owner of several broodmares, its a good idea the stallion bonus but i think the studs will just reflect it their prices anyway
.

[Messenger]

Yes Trent, I have had others suggest this to me.
Maybe studs should be content to encourage an increase in the size of their books.
Maybe the bonus should only be payable for services by stallions that have not increased their stud fee from the previous season?
It may limit the breeders choices a little but it may encourage studmasters NOT to put up their fees if they want to increase their book size

[Dot]

As Trent says, NSW have the $500 rebate for colonial sires ( returned to breeder upon registering a foal) and whilst it can certainly be seen as having been a boost to stallion and foal numbers it is also easy to see it as a way that stallion owners can maintain a higher less competitive fee for their sire so that they moreso then the mare owner is the beneficiary of the scheme. Perhaps it’s time to review this scheme and reduce/remove the rebate for the production of a foal to a scheme whereby the extra is returned to the breeder when the foal becomes a starter.

Obviously every starter must once have been a foal, but not every foal becomes a starter. It is at the level of “starter” that a foal begins to contribute to the governing bodies revenue source by increasing field sizes and wagering returns, and in turn prizemoney. Whilst we do need more foals it is imperative that we get more starters from the foals we do produce. “Wastage” is not only an economic burden for the industry but weighs heavily upon the industry and public alike with regard to animal welfare.

[gutwagon]

Under the upcoming scheme by only offering the bonus to fillies and mares they seem to be encouraging owners to stop racing that horse and start breeding. This would take more horses out of the racing pool. It should be offered to all race winners regardless of sex, after all it is the dams of the race winners that we want to encourage to keep breeding.

[Dot]

Does look a bit that way Rick but some owners are just never going to be breeders regardless of how much their given!

Something is better then nothing but there is a lot of detail missing from the press release. I guess you could say that the scheme is intended to reward successful breeders and owners seeings it goes to winners. But is it intended to push these mares off to stud? Why are only mares who beat mares rewarded ( apart from the obvious, they know how many of those races there are) and not mares who beat the boys?. Are the certificates “attached” to the winning mare and her dam? Or are they transferable? No point giving a breeder a $1000 to breed the dam of the winner if they don’t have her anymore, and if it’s transferable, well it won’t necessarilly then be spent covering the dam of a winner.....Is the owners share transferable to purchases, transferable to another mare or an actual breeder or is it $500 certificate that just “sits” there if the owner is not abreeder?

I like the idea of a staggered grant system, firstly this can be used directly to mobilise broodmares already in the broodmare paddock and not being bred from back into the breeding shed. Staggered grants don’t exclude anyone’s mare but does weigh the money in line with industry expectations for likelihood of producing winners. Like HRNSWs rebate scheme HRV could also use the funds to support a particular tier of sire, $max fee, max book size, colonial bred, Australian owned or Victorian based or a combination of these.

With a criteria of not bred last season it shouldn’t be to difficult with HRVs extensive access to data bases to identify the majority of eligible mares, and then cost the scheme by multiply each eligible mares grant to reach a total, of by having a fixed total dividing that by eligible mares to reach an amount for each grant clause. Depending then on the uptake rate HRV want they could administer the scheme by having breeders apply and with restricted stallions available( low up take) to emailing mares owners with their mares specific grant amount and available restricted sires for a higher up take, or email mare owners with available grant for mare, and no restriction on stallion used for highest uptake.

Such a grant scheme is only good for a couple of seasons as some breeders are already every other season breeders and grants for mares not bred the previous seasons rewards them disproportionately to others and may encourage others to breed less frequently in order to access a grant.

But for a couple of seasons it could be very useful to get empty mares back into the breeding shed and increase foal numbers. ( yes I know some of these mares would have been back breeding next season anyway, so make it for mares left empty for 2 seasons or more if preferred) And give time to formulate plans for more long term schemes to stimulate breeding, and more importantly plans to get more of the horses we do breed to the track as “starters” preferably as multiple starters over a length of time, and best of all for connections a genuine opportunity to be a winner.

[Messenger]

I have been told that Downunder mares from Oz and NZ are doing so well in the USA/Canada that they are likely to be seeking more.
and that the offers from the US are very hard to resist as they are the “bird in the hand” as opposed to the uncertainty of winning it.
We cannot afford to lose too many - just another reason we need incentives
We all know the lag in producing a racehorse from conceiving a foal so hopefully the administrators have not left it too late.

[Messenger]

I have had a couple of people suggest to me that the following owners would or would not have been breeding regardless of the bonus so even though we are only talking $18k, it is not likely to produce more breeding

Today’s announcement means a further $18,000 worth of breeding vouchers will be made available for Vicbred Super Series winning owners and breeders to reinvest in the local industry.

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/think-local-9-13-million-reasons-to-be-vicbred/

[arlington]

Not limited to the VSS winners, there are breeders that won't breed. Should the bonus be transferable?
I suppose they've at least included the boys breeder and owner. Perhaps, more than perhaps, they're targeting the quality mares so include the males. At that level, as much as there are owners that don't breed, how much more incentive would you need if you owned a mare that bred a group one winner? On the other hand an owner who didn't breed the female that wins a $7000 race and only gets $500 out of the $1500.

I realise you don't have to use the bonus on any set mare but, still, there are owners that could do with an extra $250 if it was split equally.

In the case of VSS winners, who will get this additional bonus, how does the foal nominator bonus work? The breeder is the foal nominator and gets a $10-$12,000 bonus. So they need the extra $1000? Or have I got it all wrong.

[TeeGeeEmm]

Supporting the top end of town!!!

[gutwagon]

I have to agree that if you bred a Vic bred final winner you are going to continue breeding anyway ! Looks like 18k just wasted .
I would still like to see the conditions go back to Stallions that stand in Vic and Vic owned and located broodmares only. This would help the breeding industry more.

[arlington]

Just checked on some info, carrying on from post #11.
The prizemoney for the Super Sires, $100,000 trotters, $130,000 pacers.
The foal nominator which I imagine in 99% of cases will be the breeder.
They will receive a 10% bonus for winning of $10,000 and $13,000.
You have to consider the owners might not need $500 considering first prizemoney level.
Is it a wise use of funds to distribute another $18,000 here?

[gutwagon]

I have been calling for them to give breeders some incentives for years, this 18k to finalist winners probably wont result in one extra foal being bred ! Would be better spent removing registration fees . Do we know if they have been permanently removed or was it a one off.
This bonus shows that the people running the show really have no idea about the breeding industry.

[Messenger]

I received an email about the $1500 breeding bonus (1000 breeder 500 owner):

At this point it has been run on 38 races. Yabby Dam Farms heads the list with $3k along with Adam Kelly and the Vassalos. It is supposed to be paid on 77 races and after 39 days (22 to go) only 38 have been run (not even half). Got the Vicbred heats and semis coming up in June so I guess they could make the numbers up.
The vast majority have been metro races. The 2yo filly races in the bush don't stand up and so get combined with the colts and geldings so they are not included. The same with most 3yo races. 4yo and up mares races in bush often not stand up and get deleted.
2yo and 3yo races in town are mostly feature races.

So we are giving bonuses mostly to breeders who have bred metro winners (feature races) as an incentive to breed again.
I might be totally wrong but are they the ones needing the incentive? Surely you're likely to breed again anyway if in that category?
I know it's only $116k in these bonuses but it doesn't feel right if some that do not need any incentive are getting some of it.
Either I'm out of touch and the people I speak to are, or HRV are

[Dot]

Always thought these would miss the mark. As was pointed out elsewhere some of the smaller owner breeders that could use these bonuses may have only had geldings at the races so no chance to obtain a bonus, and looks like the actual distribution has/will bypass many of those that are racing mares. And it may only be 116k but in the hands of those who wouldn’t have bred otherwise as opposed to providing a discount to those who would anyway makes all the difference in overall numbers of foals bred.

Cant see the demand from the US for Aussie breds slowing down, Illinois passed racino legislation in the last week and will be building a new harness track to revive their industry and an Aussie bred just won another $200k feature race. Congratulations Anne.

[Messenger]

From another messager:

Alan Galloway, proprietor of Alabar said quite clearly in his podcast of last year ( I know you don’t listen ) that the commercial mares are going to be bred anyway and it was the mid and bottom end mares where we need to find a way to keep people breeding.

HRV could have bought 40 to 50 services, probably more, for that to proven sires in the lower commercial tier approx $2000 to $4500 ( discounted not advertised fees) based in Vic and from Alabars NZ roster, trotters and pacers, the likes of Skyvalley, Betterthancheddar, Four Starrzzz Shark etc and sold tickets in a raffle. Tickets don’t need to be dear, the raffle isn’t intended to raise money, just distribute the services, first drawn first pick etc, and service is transferable to someone else to increase chances of being used. Of course some breeders attracted to and benefiting would have bred this season anyway too, but I think there’s a much better chance of picking up ones that wouldn’t this way.

I don’t know if there’s anyone at HRV that can think outside the square

[Galli]

Spot on.

[Messenger]

Another sent to me (I am not a booker or twitterer)
This is what we like to hear about

[Dot]

On last years service fees, (and HRV would be eligible for a 20% discount at both Alabar and Empire on current criteria for early bird fee or early bookings!) those criteria on location, proven and priced stallions would make about 12 sires eligible, 4 trotters and 8 pacers, not all at the big two stallions bases but most are. A little judicious shopping would get 4 services to most, 3 to 5 for others and and I’m sure 60 services in total for less then is being spent on bonus certificates.

Available sires are representative of a number of different sirelines to suit most mares, and multiple services available shouldn’t see too many people disappointed if an early draw winner selects their choice. Have a function for the draw in breeding heartland and make it an annual event! Go for it I say, everyone can buy a ticket!

[aussiebreno]

What about some of the funds set aside for first time breeders?

[Messenger]

That would be smart thinking Brendan
Maybe to make the funds go further we should make it for all owners of first time mares where
- the owners are not professional breeders
- the mare is not a metro winner (as these are going to find someone who wants to breed from them)
- the mare is not the winner of more than 3(?) races (see above)
- the mare is not the daughter of a Gp1 winning mare (see above)

[Dot]

You broadening your horizons Brenno? You know you can’t breed to Quinny or Bull right? Laz, yes, but funds in your neck of the woods would be in the domain of HRNSW or Club Menangle!

It’s not a bad idea, there’s been talk of providing discounts for first time trainers to get their licences and the like but I don’t think it’s ever actually come to something.

[aussiebreno]

You broadening your horizons Brenno? You know you can’t breed to Quinny or Bull right? Laz, yes, but funds in your neck of the woods would be in the domain of HRNSW or Club Menangle!

It’s not a bad idea, there’s been talk of providing discounts for first time trainers to get their licences and the like but I don’t think it’s ever actually come to something.
Luckily there is Alta Christiano!

Personally I'm a couple years off owning a racehorse again, let alone thinking about breeding (apparently banks expect you to pay back a mortgage - how rude) but just thinking how to get best bang for your buck with the allocated dollars.

[Dot]

AC definately in my thoughts for getting most bang for my bucks this season! They just dropped interest rates didn’t they? A little share in a syndicate to see you through maybe......

[Messenger]

Luckily there is Alta Christiano!

Personally I'm a couple years off owning a racehorse again, let alone thinking about breeding (apparently banks expect you to pay back a mortgage - how rude) but just thinking how to get best bang for your buck with the allocated dollars.

You MUST be able to afford a horse too Brendan ;)
With the official cash rate 1.25% and home loans under 5% it is a great time to be young
Old fuddy duddy here remembers when we were the lucky ones with a home loan capped at 13.5% (more recent borrowers than us were paying as much as 17% in the Keating years)

[aussiebreno]

You MUST be able to afford a horse too Brendan ;)
With the official cash rate 1.25% and home loans under 5% it is a great time to be young
Old fuddy duddy here remembers when we were the lucky ones with a home loan capped at 13.5% (more recent borrowers than us were paying as much as 17% in the Keating years)

Kev remember that when you bought the median house price was probably around 3x the median wage but nowadays it is about 9x.

[Dot]

Im sure you can BOTH afford a share in a horse.

https://www.alabarsyndicate.com.au

[Galli]

Maybe to make the funds go further we should make it for all owners of first time mares

It all comes back to the chance of getting a return for your investment. The fact people (owners and/or trainers) are not doing it "professionally" doesn't mean they don't expect some return and they are totally entitled to expect it too when their stock can measure up at least at some level. If people feel they have a chance, they will breed.

Just two words : Integrity (getting better) and Programming (if they want to keep the hobby trainers they must programme for them).

[Messenger]

Kev remember that when you bought the median house price was probably around 3x the median wage but nowadays it is about 9x.

True so Come to the Country escape the Rat Race :D

[Messenger]

Im sure you can BOTH afford a share in a horse.

https://www.alabarsyndicate.com.au

You should get a job at HRV Dot. At present if you click onto the Get Involved tab on https://www.thetrots.com.au/ home page
and then the Syndication tab - you get taken back to the home page

Who is supposed to be overseeing all these failures that I keep on stumbling upon?

[Dot]

Don’t know Kev, but that could be why I keep getting email notifications from Alabar that shares in these yearlings are still available!

[Messenger]

Don’t know Kev, but that could be why I keep getting email notifications from Alabar that shares in these yearlings are still available!

They are still available. I don't know whether they are supposed to be listed on https://www.thetrots.com.au/
What I do know is that clicking on Syndications should not put you in a meaningless loop

[aussiebreno]

It used to redirect to raceapacer but that website is down and the facebook and twitter have gone private. Possibly raceapacer has finished up?

[Yabbie]

Yes, Mark Hoare has closed down RaceaPacer.

[Messenger]

...........

I like the idea of a staggered grant system, firstly this can be used directly to mobilise broodmares already in the broodmare paddock and not being bred from back into the breeding shed. Staggered grants don’t exclude anyone’s mare but does weigh the money in line with industry expectations for likelihood of producing winners. Like HRNSWs rebate scheme HRV could also use the funds to support a particular tier of sire, $max fee, max book size, colonial bred, Australian owned or Victorian based or a combination of these.

With a criteria of not bred last season it shouldn’t be to difficult with HRVs extensive access to data bases to identify the majority of eligible mares, and then cost the scheme by multiply each eligible mares grant to reach a total, of by having a fixed total dividing that by eligible mares to reach an amount for each grant clause. Depending then on the uptake rate HRV want they could administer the scheme by having breeders apply and with restricted stallions available( low up take) to emailing mares owners with their mares specific grant amount and available restricted sires for a higher up take, or email mare owners with available grant for mare, and no restriction on stallion used for highest uptake.

Such a grant scheme is only good for a couple of seasons as some breeders are already every other season breeders and grants for mares not bred the previous seasons rewards them disproportionately to others and may encourage others to breed less frequently in order to access a grant.

But for a couple of seasons it could be very useful to get empty mares back into the breeding shed and increase foal numbers. ( yes I know some of these mares would have been back breeding next season anyway, so make it for mares left empty for 2 seasons or more if preferred) And give time to formulate plans for more long term schemes to stimulate breeding, and more importantly plans to get more of the horses we do breed to the track as “starters” preferably as multiple starters over a length of time, and best of all for connections a genuine opportunity to be a winner.

A poster suggested to me that a better way to spend the $115k would be to lease a stallion and make services to him free but this would be putting a lot of eggs in one basket and would no doubt upset many stallion owners

I have gone back to post 8 in this thread as I knew that I had read suggestions that I liked the sound of.
I can see how Dot's idea could be a good interim measure which would share the services around

[Dot]

Little doubt that many breeders, particularly with the drought conditions in Victoria, are very price sensitive and a suitable sire offered free could attract a very large book. The precedent has been set, the connections of Mr Feelgood very generously offered him at no service fee several seasons ago, no doubt that was the season he covered 347 mares, 140 mares more then in his next best season ( where he was still offered at a reduced but not free service fee) and over 200 more then in any other season.

I imagine a free quality sire would certainly attract some mares that would not have otherwise been bred and some from stallions that breeders would have paid a service fee too. Presumably leasing a sire would not be a single season occurrence but would rotate through a roster of suitable sires from year to year so sharing around the benefits and burdens.

[Messenger]

A poster suggested HRV should approach the Riseleys about coming to an arrangement for Lennytheshark.
Empire (going to frozen only) didn't get him many and it could be the promotion he needs

[Dot]

Could lead to a little Laz v Lenny, state v state, silver tails v the battlers rivalry in the future! Could be interesting......

[Messenger]

I was sent a list of recipients
So very many of the owners and breeders were always going to be breeding this season - you know the names
Was this what this scheme was wanting to achieve? !

[Dot]

https://tasracingcorporate.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/HPOL0073-Tasracing-Breeders-Support-Policy-v7.pdf

Additional Support
A one off $1,000 rebate towards a service fee, per season, if not eligible for any other Breeding incentives

http://www.vicbred.com.au/eligibility/

https://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=41186

[gutwagon]

Just had a quick look at those links Dot. Does that mean if I had my Vic based mare served by a stallion based in Tas I could get the $1000 rebate ?

Why hasn't HRV done this, studs are already relocating to Tasmania !