View Full Version : Drivers' Colours or Not?
gutwagon
07-09-2019, 02:42 PM
I see some media people in Vic are flogging the "Make the drivers the superstars of the sport" again. They want drivers to have their own colours and focus promotions on them.
Personally I think it would drive many owners and trainers away very quickly .
Messenger
07-09-2019, 03:57 PM
It has to be about loving the horses.
The gallops get that
And don't forget that animals are safer than humans - the latter can really embarass you at times
I see some media people in Vic are flogging the "Make the drivers the superstars of the sport" again. They want drivers to have their own colours and focus promotions on them.
Personally I think it would drive many owners and trainers away very quickly .
And that’s the kind of thinking that is seeing the sport floundering Rick. We need to innovate and change, it’s not obviously that owners and trainers aren’t needed, it’s that our drivers, who in some instances are also trainers, are our most marketable commodity and we are seriously underutilising them.
Love of the horse is a given Kev but horses don’t do interviews, don’t sign autographs or shake hands and engage in conversations with fans. They also don’t have the longivity in the industry that drivers do, following a horse tends to be a one off, getting fans to follow a driver more likely gets them following multiple horses.
Messenger
07-10-2019, 01:41 AM
And that’s the kind of thinking that is seeing the sport floundering Rick. We need to innovate and change, it’s not obviously that owners and trainers aren’t needed, it’s that our drivers, who in some instances are also trainers, are our most marketable commodity and we are seriously underutilising them.
Love of the horse is a given Kev but horses don’t do interviews, don’t sign autographs or shake hands and engage in conversations with fans. They also don’t have the longivity in the industry that drivers do, following a horse tends to be a one off, getting fans to follow a driver more likely gets them following multiple horses.
I reckon the gallops are doing ok
Have you heard of Winx or Black Caviar, Dot
Gai Waterhouse is the only marketed racing person I can think of (marketed herself) but I cannot think of a time when 1,000 people went to the course to see her (unlike the ladies mentioned above)
A few hundred for a ladies lunch at Warrnambool would probably be the closest you would get to that (but I agree she is great for their code)
Trainers and owners are generally available for interviews, if one proves a natural and is interested in a profile - it will/would have happened
We need our form of the Melbourne Cup, a set day at a set track that can develop a history - a single day on which our following at least doubles
And once it has developed, the winners will always be revered/remembered - we will have a new 'champion' every year or if we are lucky some horse will win it 3yrs in a row and become a legend
On the day trainers are being warned about the use of sea snail venom, I am happy to stick with promoting the four legged athletes in our game first and foremost
We aren’t the gallops Kev, and in many respects we aren’t very like them, we have much more in common with equestrian sport. Very very few people have the physical stature that affords them the chance to be a jockey, almost everyone can aspire to be a driver. Most TBs have a short career, most stbs much greater longivity, or at least they did when our focus was on FFA racing not juveniles.
Very Funny Kev, of course I’ve heard of Winx and Black Caviar, and Hugh Bowman and Luke Nolan who rode them, wanna add Makybe Diva and Glen Boss? Trainers Chris Waller, Peter Moody and Lee Freedman if your interested. But it is the horse along with the rider that puts on the show that people come to watch. Gai is unique Kev, a trained actress and a natural at working a crowd regardless of the size. How do you know a 1000 people don’t go to the races to see Gai? A friend of mine in Bankstown Kev, went to work for Gai as her PA, I can tell you people hang off Gai’s every word everywhere she goes. And yes she’s done it herself. Just because Gai marketed herself doesn’t mean racing shouldn’t market anyone else.
My turn now Kev, have you heard of Bold Eagle and Franck Nivard? Of Readly Express and Bjorn Goop? They are all the equivalent of rockstars in the trotting sport in Europe. Sure the trainers and owners get interviewed from time to time, but on the day, at the races, it’s the horse and it’s driver that the crowd at the track relates to. They are a team Kev, it’s the driver who’s shows off the equine athlete, who gives the horse a voice in the pre and post race interviews, and plays to the crowd. The driver is who the kids aspire to, to be a Franck Nivard or a Bjorn Goop and drive a horse like Bold Eagle or Readly Express, and for the adults to fantacise they are Frank Nivard or Bjorn Goop before they go back to their (boring) routine lives.
I guess if you haven’t experienced the pantomime of European trots or equestrian sport its hard to relate to, it truely is a world away from what we do here.
We have no Flemington or Melbourne Cup now Kev, if we don’t find a way to market our sport, to connect better with our existing, and a new audience, there won’t be time to develop the history you seek.
Sea Snail Venom has no place in either code Kev, and reports of its use are disheartening, but it is premature to view every trainer as tainted by the weighty shadow it may in time cast if the presently unverified reports of it use are proven to be true.
Messenger
07-10-2019, 12:47 PM
We will have to agree to disagree.
I suppose it comes down to the difference between 'who you relate to' and 'who you come to see'.
Even on the relate to front, I must be boring or greedy but 'the one I want to be is the owner of the champion' even if I have never laid eyes on them (scary who I might end up as if a genie read my thoughts :eek:)
Jocks, drivers and trainers with personality or even mystique are no doubt valuable assets
You have probably seen my past posts suggesting we poach some french administrators but I will happily take Peter V'landys back too
Definately boring Kev, though some will no doubt remember Winx for owner Debbie Kepitis and the purple hair and “that” black and purple suit. That’s not who you are channeling is it Kev? That would be scary.
gutwagon
07-10-2019, 05:00 PM
Sorry Dot, but I think the whole sport needs promoting not just drivers. People already follow drivers, their names are in the form guide. The horses are the stars. Giving drivers their own colours would not work. People know horses by the trainers or owners colours , if a horse had different colours all the time it would be too confusing for everyone.
Sorry Dot, but I think the whole sport needs promoting not just drivers. People already follow drivers, their names are in the form guide. The horses are the stars. Giving drivers their own colours would not work. People know horses by the trainers or owners colours , if a horse had different colours all the time it would be too confusing for everyone.
So if making our leading drivers who occupy more screen time then anyone or anything else in the industry more easily identifiable to harness diehards and newbies alike isn’t the best way to promote the whole sport then what is? Sure a champion horse is of immeasurable benefit but let’s face it they don’t grow on trees. Not even the incomparable Lazarus could have run in front of the cameras in several races a day seven days a week.....
Next someone will be telling me the best way to market the sport would be to velcro the trainer, owner and breeders name to the drivers pants each race.......
Messenger
07-11-2019, 10:45 AM
...... well going on the gallops (which I do believe to be our sister code) trainers like Gai, Waller, Moody, TJ, Bart do seem to have a higher profile than the jocks whereas my historical racing books definitely suggest that the jockeys were the pinups
gutwagon
07-11-2019, 01:57 PM
Don't think we need the velcro ! Drivers have their names on their pants and distinctive helmet art and colours. I don't mind them promoting the drivers but I don't like the idea of them having their own colours.
Yes names on pants, helmet art and add posture and driving style and most experienced trots followers can identify at least the leading drivers, but it’s not enough to encourage new followers to the trots, those who don’t do the form, who don’t recognise a horse, who don’t know who or what the other hundreds of different colours on the track represent, in a crowded pub with trots races on the blue screen with no sound to think I’ll just have a tenner on the trots.
Gutwagon ����
@gutwagon478
Replying to
@AdamTABSports
@Jodyjamracing
and 3 others
In harness racing the critics call drivers "cheats in seats".
Hey Rick your a genius, that’s brilliant, the best reason of all for drivers to wear their own unique colours. Integrity and the perception of integrity is the biggest obstacle stifling harness racings growth. What better way to hold drivers to account, every race, every time, every driver in their own unique identifiable colours that allows everyone, stewards, fellow participants and public alike, to readily identify them and scrutinise their every move in a race. No more “cheats on seats” hiding behind owner or trainer colours, if they cheat there they are, larger then life, in their own colours every time for everyone to see.
Messenger
07-12-2019, 12:04 AM
A bit of a stretch Dot, we have quite a number of drivers and we would not have drivers going around in the simplistic colours of the dogs
It would be more like having to remember all the flags of the world
I cannot see how it would help the scenario you painted in post 12
Adaptor
07-12-2019, 12:39 AM
A bit of a stretch Dot, we have quite a number of drivers and we would not have drivers going around in the simplistic colours of the dogs
It would be more like having to remember all the flags of the world
I cannot see how it would help the scenario you painted in post 12
A very impressive young Bendigo trainer (and primary school teacher) Kate Hargreaves, being interviewed by Paul Campbell makes a strong case for having their own "brand", in this interview on Twitter. Check it out:
https://twitter.com/vege07?lang=en
A bit of a stretch Dot, we have quite a number of drivers and we would not have drivers going around in the simplistic colours of the dogs
It would be more like having to remember all the flags of the world
I cannot see how it would help the scenario you painted in post 12
Seriously Kev you don’t think the stewards on their patch and the regular watchers and punters don’t know who each driver is regardless of the colours worn? Many drivers are already wearing only one set of colours as driver of only their own horses, and wouldn’t limiting the free lancers to their own colours reduce the number of “flags” to be remembered, making it easier for the stewards to do their job? And for punters and fans to learn in time who they are?
Would love to say we don’t have any corrupt conduct occurring on the track but we do, the convicted and disqualified Cramps, the Cobram Crew currently awaiting another court date, the recently charged Mr Walters ( and we do all know who was driving the winner there don’t we?). People did notice irregularities in the way certain drivers drove during the green light scandal, maybe all that would have been fully brought to light much sooner if those drivers were in the same colours every drive so more people noticed something wasn’t quite right.
You don’t think uniform driver colours would make it easier for the industrys form stewards to monitor drivers “form” as well as horse form in their reviews. Would have to be easier for law enforcement who aren’t so familiar with harness racing to review races where their “suspect” is always in the same colours as they build a brief of evidence, and for prosecutors to present that evidence to a non harness racing familiar judge or jury.
Driver colours are not saying all drivers are corrupt, they aren’t, it’s also giving drivers an opportunity to grow their own brand, and our brand, and it is proven that known drivers do increase turnover at a meeting, and at the same time providing an opportunity to bring those who maybe crossing the line to account sooner, and reduce temptation to others to cross the line.
Our future as an industry isn’t about what individuals want, or what happens in “our sister code” which isnt facing extinction as we are, it about doing what it takes to improve the actual and perceived integrity of our industry, along with increasing interest and investment.
Rick says trainers and owners would walk away if they couldn’t use their colours, well I’m an owner and a trainer, I wouldn’t walk away, I can say a few would bluff and bluster about walking away but I’d bet they wouldn’t do it.
A very impressive young Bendigo trainer (and primary school teacher) Kate Hargreaves, being interviewed by Paul Campbell makes a strong case for having their own "brand", in this interview on Twitter. Check it out:
https://twitter.com/vege07?lang=en
A passionate young lady Noel but where were her colours, her brand during the interview? An opportunity lost. A little research in countries that use driver colours would show Kate and other Australian trainers there are many ways still to promote your brand as a trainer that are either underutilised or not used at all in Australia. And listening to the sage advice of a couple of those in the twitter thread that precipitated the interview that are professionals in business and promotions wouldn’t go astray either.
Messenger
07-12-2019, 11:21 AM
Seriously Kev you don’t think the stewards on their patch and the regular watchers and punters don’t know who each driver is regardless of the colours worn?
You are insulting even asking that question
So we the regulars don't need them!
If we are doing it for the occasional punter in the TAB (post 12) we would be keeping the colours simple (don't ask me how) so that he would remember 'that driver's colours' next time he feels the urge
We also seem to be assuming that there is sufficient pre-race coverage for him to spot his favourite colours or they are going to jump out at him when the odds are displayed (the graphics would greatly simplify them as they do now)
It would seem to me that he is more likely to remember the horse or drivers name from a past experience and he is going to look up/spot that
Then if we are talking about him following his bet in the race, now that he knows its number, wouldn't the set doggies colours be of more assistance - another can of worms
Under your scenario there will be owner/trainer/drivers as they are but the Stewart runners for example will be in more of a variety. I think them often being the same may actually help the stewards
Your help 'to build a brief of evidence' point is now completely getting off the point of why you want drivers' colours - to promote them
No Kev, the point about drivers colours has never been all about promoting “them” as some people seem intent on wanting to make it. The point has always been to utilise our most marketable commodity which are our drivers to better promote the entire industry. If that can also bring benefits to integrity then even better still. The big picture Kev, not the “all about me “ resistance to change mentality that continually bogs down the industry.
gutwagon
07-12-2019, 01:45 PM
I really don't think new people coming to or watching our sport are the slightest bit interested in the drivers. It's all about the horses.
Any attempt to bring new people to the sport should not alienate or anger the current people involved. I would seriously consider walking away if they went to drivers colours or colours to match the numbers like the dogs.
Just recently 2 racing people have made the "cheats in seats" remark to me, which I always say is rubbish. So promoting the people perceived as cheats by outsiders could backfire .
I don't have owners colours so I don't think the "It's all about me" tag applies.
Anyway there is nothing I can do about it as the board doesn't seem to listen to participants, so I am done with this subject.
aussiebreno
07-12-2019, 01:51 PM
Promotion of both drivers and trainers is needed. I'd suggest most people even casual observers know more drivers than they do trainers. Twittersphere has seen a #bekindtoyourdrivers campaign but no #bekindtoyourtrainers campagin. The drivers make a name for themselves with the wider public as it is. People see C Alford, G Lang, G Hall Jnr etc out on the track competing every race and see their name in the form guide. So driver promotion is already at a decent level. While colours may add to the promotion of drivers a little bit it will absolutely cruel promotion of trainers who are already hidden away from TV cameras and only have their colours to promote them. We need to promote both.
Also, for small trainers and thousands of owners the joy of seeing their colours on the track and in the winners photo is far greater joy than the regular drivers would get.
How about we first work on getting trainers and drivers listed in the fields on the mobile site. Doesn't matter who's colours they are if you can't actually put a name to the colours.
aussiebreno
07-12-2019, 02:00 PM
No Kev, the point about drivers colours has never been all about promoting “them” as some people seem intent on wanting to make it. The point has always been to utilise our most marketable commodity which are our drivers to better promote the entire industry. If that can also bring benefits to integrity then even better still. The big picture Kev, not the “all about me “ resistance to change mentality that continually bogs down the industry.
Horses are by far the main attraction. Winx sold out Randwick/Rosehill, not Hugh Bowman.
Promotion of both drivers and trainers is needed. I'd suggest most people even casual observers know more drivers than they do trainers. Twittersphere has seen a #bekindtoyourdrivers campaign but no #bekindtoyourtrainers campagin. The drivers make a name for themselves with the wider public as it is. People see C Alford, G Lang, G Hall Jnr etc out on the track competing every race and see their name in the form guide. So driver promotion is already at a decent level. While colours may add to the promotion of drivers a little bit it will absolutely cruel promotion of trainers who are already hidden away from TV cameras and only have their colours to promote them. We need to promote both.
Also, for small trainers and thousands of owners the joy of seeing their colours on the track and in the winners photo is far greater joy than the regular drivers would get.
How about we first work on getting trainers and drivers listed in the fields on the mobile site. Doesn't matter who's colours they are if you can't actually put a name to the colours.
If I turn my phone sideways Brenno I can see trainers, drivers and a whole lot more ??
And I must be the exception for small trainers and owners then, for me it is all about the horses, the joy is in seeing my horses on the track and I couldn’t give a toss what colours the drivers are wearing.
Horses are by far the main attraction. Winx sold out Randwick/Rosehill, not Hugh Bowman.
Yes she did, but Winxs don’t grow on trees......
aussiebreno
07-12-2019, 03:54 PM
If I turn my phone sideways Brenno I can see trainers, drivers and a whole lot more ??
And I must be the exception for small trainers and owners then, for me it is all about the horses, the joy is in seeing my horses on the track and I couldn’t give a toss what colours the drivers are wearing.
Beauty. I wonder if I've been mad about this whole time for no reason, or they updated it and I hadn't turned my phone sideways since the update. :D
Been a little diagram for a long time at the bottom right of the page on my phone indicating to turn the phone sideways. Of course it did take someone else to tell me what it meant.....
Messenger
07-12-2019, 05:25 PM
Beauty. I wonder if I've been mad about this whole time for no reason, or they updated it and I hadn't turned my phone sideways since the update. :D
Yes Brendan, it is amazing what with phones the go nowadays and naturally held in portrait mode - everything is still geared to landscape desk top mode
ps I have been in Melbourne for a month - it so good to be home to my desktop (and I haven't forgotten how to type, yay)
https://mobile.twitter.com/RWWA_Harness/status/1149982746560716800
Messenger
07-14-2019, 01:49 PM
I don't know what to make of that Dot - only that we have become a 'look at me' world
Could you translate what the half tanked were singing?
With you being a West Aussie - you should have a WA news thread for us
Throwing their weight behind driver Gary Hall Jnr before last nights group 1 at Gloucester Park Kev.
Gary Hall, nah nah nah, Gary Hall Gary Hall Gary Hall nah nah nah Gary Hall.........
Messenger
07-14-2019, 02:10 PM
They would have been disappointed that he got beaten on what would appear to be clearly the best horse
Have a look at this finish folks
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP130719#GPM13071901
An experience they won’t forget in a hurry!!
Messenger
07-14-2019, 05:13 PM
You're getting desperate Dot. Those guys would have hundreds of boozy nights out lost in their memory banks - the only thing that will make this one memorable is that somebody thought it was worth twittering it
Sad you think so Kev, let’s turn out the lights on the industry now then shall we. I’m sure more then one will remember more then just a little about it, and some of the 1.6k twitter viewers so far might just take a little more interest. That was RWWAs own twitter feed Kev, which also conducts pre and post race interviews with the drivers and is the leader in the industry in that space.
You don’t want to promote the drivers Kev, something that all the professional promoters tell us we must, the Winxs and Black Caviars or Lenny’s and Lazarus’s can’t run multiple races on multiple days, and are few and far between. ( but obviously promote them when we have them)
Tell us how you would have us connect with the social media driven young people of the day and bring them into our industry?
And should have said best in the Australian space for the WA boys. And Ashley Brennan does outstanding work on social media at Menangle and some of the other carnivals.
Unprecedented access to the action in the US too, drivers in their own colours that fit, not the bedraggled look common here, and the trainers aren’t left out as some seem to fear.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheMeadowlands/with_replies
Messenger
07-14-2019, 07:38 PM
Just stop with the turn out the lights carry on when someone has a differing opinion
I have NEVER said I do not want to promote the drivers just that I do not favour drivers colours and that I think the promotion of the horses is still the way to go
In post 6 I said:
Jocks, drivers and trainers with personality or even mystique are no doubt valuable assets
In post 4 I said:
Trainers and owners are generally available for interviews, if one proves a natural and is interested in a profile - it will/would have happened
I meant to include jockeys and drivers in that
This thread is about driver's colours - keep interviewing everyone that is worth interviewing and highlighting interesting horse races/clips too and promoting 'events'
We miss out on many chances to promote the horses
Using your clip - A horse called Major Martini who finishes like a bullet should be easy to promote
I can remember a couple of years back when a coloured horse (of ordinary ability but that shouldn't have mattered) could have been our 'Spirit' and a great family puller
Danno
07-14-2019, 10:00 PM
Joining this debate kinda late Dot, but please show where copying what the septics do has brought our game any benefit, a couple of complete failures that come to mind are,
1) All/mostly mobile racing. BORING and predictable
2) Shorter distance racing. BORING and predictable
Dot you are good on statistics, I'd like to see how adopting drivers colours has increased betting turnover or heaven forbid increased the number of bums on seats in the USA, I know you won't be able to show those stats because they don't exist, the game in the states is shrinking at an even more alarming rate than our own. ( I'm certain you can find stats to support that statement because the facts abound)
What the game needs in my humble opinion, is to reconnect with the "man on the street", this can best be done by increasing participation levels and syndication of very small shares in inexpensive horses that can go to the races next week, will help with that though not the only strategy.
The "man/woman on the street" still connects through "word of mouth" he just does it through his twitter/facebook account these days. I don't think we need to conquer Facebook, we just need to get more people engaged in the trots and talking to their friends about it.
I would very, very happily bet my life, that adopting drivers colours would have ZERO impact on either betting turnover or participation numbers, and I believe quite strongly participation numbers will grow turnover long before ANY marketing/sales gimmick.
Please remember we are the trots and we are unlike any other racing code particularly in Australia or elsewhere we should be leveraging our uniqueness, not throwing it in the can.
Cheers,
Danno.
No Danno not late just rooted in the past. The debate is not about what has been but about the need to change and innovate in order to stem the decline in interest in our sport, which is a worldwide phenomenon. The United States is not the only country to use driver colours, and support for driver colours is not because the United States use them but because the professionals and young people involved in marketing our sport here in Australia say that they can build a much superior brand and promotion for our industry using drivers and driver colours then they are able to do now.
“What the game needs in my humble opinion, is to reconnect with the "man on the street", this can best be done by increasing participation levels”
How do we increase participation levels if we do not first reconnect with the “man on the street” ? And isn’t this the space our young social media professionals operate in, shouldn’t we heed their advice?
The most effective syndication model in the industry in the world for small shares in inexpensive horses connecting the men and women “on the street” through word of mouth via social media is thestable.ca in Canada. Canada is a country that uses driver colours, so clearly driver colours are no barrier to increasing participation levels there.
There is no doubt Danno that known drivers are a benefit to increasing turnover, I had this conversation in Sydney with Sam Nati on more then one occasion. And one of the most marked venues that turnover increased when known Sydney drivers attended was your home track of Newcastle. Making drivers more known and identifiable can only be of further benefit to turnover. I’ve little doubt increased participation levels would be beneficial for turnover, but as we know they have been in steady decline for about three decades, all the while whilst the trainer/owner colours you are advocating for have been in use, and yet you steadfastly resist the notion that we should try change?
We currently use the standardised “greyhound” numbers and variable “thoroughbred” owner/trainer colours, wouldn’t we be leveraging our uniqueness if we went to drivers using their own uniquely identifiable colours? And there is of course currently nothing preventing an owner or trainer decking out their horse in their own colours.
Don’t you feel just a little bit hypocritical Danno? Or has the indigenous driver series changed? Don’t the trainers and owners who provide the horses for these races give up their colours in order for you to wear your unique driver colours?
Messenger
07-15-2019, 12:01 PM
No Danno not late just rooted in the past. The debate is not about what has been but about the need to change and innovate in order to stem the decline in interest in our sport, which is a worldwide phenomenon. The United States is not the only country to use driver colours, and support for driver colours is not because the United States use them but because the professionals and young people involved in marketing our sport here in Australia say that they can build a much superior brand and promotion for our industry using drivers and driver colours then they are able to do now.
“What the game needs in my humble opinion, is to reconnect with the "man on the street", this can best be done by increasing participation levels”
How do we increase participation levels if we do not first reconnect with the “man on the street” ? And isn’t this the space our young social media professionals operate in, shouldn’t we heed their advice?
The most effective syndication model in the industry in the world for small shares in inexpensive horses connecting the men and women “on the street” through word of mouth via social media is thestable.ca in Canada. Canada is a country that uses driver colours, so clearly driver colours are no barrier to increasing participation levels there.
There is no doubt Danno that known drivers are a benefit to increasing turnover, I had this conversation in Sydney with Sam Nati on more then one occasion. And one of the most marked venues that turnover increased when known Sydney drivers attended was your home track of Newcastle. Making drivers more known and identifiable can only be of further benefit to turnover. I’ve little doubt increased participation levels would be beneficial for turnover, but as we know they have been in steady decline for about three decades, all the while whilst the trainer/owner colours you are advocating for have been in use, and yet you steadfastly resist the notion that we should try change?
We currently use the standardised “greyhound” numbers and variable “thoroughbred” owner/trainer colours, wouldn’t we be leveraging our uniqueness if we went to drivers using their own uniquely identifiable colours? And there is of course currently nothing preventing an owner or trainer decking out their horse in their own colours.
Don’t you feel just a little bit hypocritical Danno? Or has the indigenous driver series changed? Don’t the trainers and owners who provide the horses for these races give up their colours in order for you to wear your unique driver colours?
You/they have not shown how the drivers colours is important, workable, recognizable
Trial it if they like - they will have to find some primary type colours that are not already trainer owned.
You didn't answer my post 18:
So we the regulars don't need them!
If we are doing it for the occasional punter in the TAB (post 12) we would be keeping the colours simple (don't ask me how) so that he would remember 'that driver's colours' next time he feels the urge
We also seem to be assuming that there is sufficient pre-race coverage for him to spot his favourite colours or they are going to jump out at him when the odds are displayed (the graphics would greatly simplify them as they do now and often bear no resemblance to the actual colours)
It would seem to me that he is more likely to remember the horse or drivers name from a past experience and he is going to look up/spot that
Then if we are talking about him following his bet in the race, now that he knows its number, wouldn't the set doggies colours be of more assistance - another can of worms
It is my opinion if you are about non regulars recognizing their horse/driver easier then you cannot go past something like the greyhound colours for starting position
When trainers or owners give up their colours it is to promote a cause or event (and sometimes to be in a penalty free race?)
Dan has his own colours - green and black with some orange
Dot you have to stop trying so hard to win and simply be satisfied at circulating an opinion
If instead of firing off the indigenous colours shot you had done some research you would have seen that Dan wore the green TAB colours at Albury and when he won at Menangle in their series he wore the following. (Maitland last year had some fantastic indigenous colours)
Messenger
07-15-2019, 12:38 PM
I would hope that any trial/proposal would first gauge the feelings of our biggest owners - we cannot afford to lose any as apart from syndications we still need some 'big end of town' money (they may be the syndicators)
I trust they will not be promoting drivers like Glenn Douglas whom they have labelled a mentor in the past
arlington
07-15-2019, 01:40 PM
Talking purely driver promotion, why not a driver meet n greet before the first Breeders Crown day? Marquis, trestle on the lawn in front of the winning post. Or, is there a big enough area to have a small marquis/tent for the whole day between the stables and the grandstand/ race day offices? Perhaps the course commentator could announce when particular drivers will be at the tent (when they haven't a driving engagement).
Might be taking it too far but you'd have to have tv monitors so the drivers can keep up with the races and it might be novel that a driver might engage with a fan a little during the running of, about, that race?
No need for colours let alone driver colours, however they could wear their pants, have their helmets...they could have skivvies with their name.
Although, a lot of people would be just as, hopefully excited to see the drivers, in their civvies. A bit more personable, (yes, opposed to pedestal)...a bigger thrill to see your favorite footy, sports, player in the supermarket than away on the field(?). I'll use the Bont, AFL Buldogs captain. On the field he wears the same colours as all the team, could never go with individual footy player colours, but a lot of people like to think they get a glimpse of the person. Don't know how the Bont dresses, grunge...hipster...crotch below his knees...007 but in civvies he's still admirable, the aura but real-er...an every day person or kiddy could aspire.
Definitely no fence sitting, I can't agree going to driver colours will do much for us, at all. Sounds, again, a bit of change for change's sake. In the case of North America, are the drivers instrumental in retaining poker machine revenue? Seems to me their enjoyment of self promotion is backed by the pokies more so than their colours.
If drivers can lobby Mr Pakula to somehow double our total prizemoney, I'll forgo the pic on the wall with my owner colours...maybe I still wouldn't.
Was interested to hear what some of the younger, progressive, media people were saying. Caught a replay of In The Gig. Jason Bonington, his thoughts, agreed with more horse and driver promotion but not driver colours. I think Brittany Graham may have been each way. I'll take that as a no.
Another thing that's interesting is the default for colours in Harnessweb is driver colours. Meaning trainers have to consciously select owner or trainer colours. Some might say their owners and themselves might be living in the past, selfishly holding the sport back, as the great majority would see selections of either owner or trainer colour. But I doubt it's holding us back.
Like the thoroughbred owners and trainers, owner pays the bills, the trainer toils for much much longer than two minutes. And using the gallopers as an example I really couldn't see any benefits for them going to jockey colours.
Haven't been here for a bit so I'll throw another one in. Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.
And just one more. I'll whisper - here in Vic, not a great idea to be thinking about driver colours whilst VCAT is in the integrity mix.
Kev I can put you in touch with Scott if you like. You obviously wouldn’t except an explanation from me anyway.
“Scott Hamilton
@scottyhamilton
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@Hillbomber
@AdamTABSports
and 4 others
As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely...”
Or perhaps you want to look him for yourself - Scott Hamilton Media.
And he’s not some Johnny come lately to either to his profession or the industry. Born and bred into the industry in fact.
Given the declining state of the industry over the past 30 years just what is the case you are presenting for owner/trainer colours other then that is what we done for over 30 years? Is it just that for you Kev, with no skin in the game as you freely admit, it’s just too inconvenient to learn something new?
Regulars can determine who’s who much of the time through other means but doesn’t mean the task couldn’t or shouldn’t be made easier for them and newcomers by regular driver colours.
Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours. That yours or my brain may not function as it once did does not mean that the thousands of other people out there can not recognise variations in colour and pattern or symbols. Limited exposure on Sky prerace does mean we need to maximise people ability to recognise who, both equine and human is on the track, greyhound number colouring provides that for the horses, though I’ve no doubt the numbers could be better designed and brighter. Driver colours do that for the humans, aided by increasing amounts of visual social media coverage which provides images of drivers in people’s minds that people are more readily adept at recognising more rapidly over time. If trainers are afraid of losing their identity or “brand” there is no reason they could not customise the colours of their horses equipment to match their own. No doubt you won’t believe me but that works very well in countries with driver colours. Go back and replay Kate Hargreaves interview lamenting she would lose her “brand” if we went to driver colours. Even she admitted that her owners failed to recognise her horses not when her driver wasn’t wearing her colours but when she borrowed a cart and her horses did not have the purple wheels. I’ve no doubt we could improve our product further if all trainers paid attention to their “brand” and turned their horses out accordingly. Some do, and it shows.
Greyhound colours on drivers have been tried here Kev, they were the subject of a presentation to the World Trotting Conference in 1999 by Sam Nati when he worked for Sky. It took some time before he could try it but try it he did as CEO at HRNSW. It was not a great success or well received by the industry or punters alike. Whilst they may have, along with the matching saddle cloth number, aided a complete novice spectator/punter as you say in relating a runner in the field to a number on a piece of paper and a starting position in the field, for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers. Let me put it simply Kev greyhounds do not have jockeys or drivers ( part of the reason no doubt they are popular with some punters) We have drivers and being able to identify them individually is important to our wagering turnover as there can be no doubt their capabilities make a substantive contribution to the out come of a race.
As I’ve said before it is not all about just promoting drivers, it also isn’t about “dumbing” the sport down in the extreme to make it as simplistic as can be for the completely uninitiated spectator, it’s about creating a more recognisable promotable sport for benefit of everyone.
“When trainers or owners give up their colours it is to promote a cause or event”
Yes it is Kev, and it does so very effectively. Is it such a stretch to believe that doing so more broadly across the industry could promote the entire industry just as effectively.
Go back and reread Scott’s tweet at the beginning of this post Kev. No one pro driver colours in the debate has called for the prohibition of owners/trainers colours just that driver colours are a better marketing tool for the industry and should be more widely used. I’ve advocated here for there use, but show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?
People are naturally resistant to change, non moreso then in this industry, but I contend that a switch to emphasising driver colours over others will not see the mass walk out some predict. Moreso that, like with the American carts ( no doubt to Dannos chagrin) if some lead in time many others will follow.
Messenger
07-15-2019, 05:31 PM
I do not want to spend a lot of time replying to incorrect statements
Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours
We are not talking about recognizing colours we are talking about REMEMBERING them (and we/you were not talking about regulars)
Lets say Dan is in drivers colours and he chooses his green with black sash and orange bands - pretty distinct actually
But I maintain that if I found a casual punter who had a bet on him today, and I asked him/her to pick his colours this time next month that I would be happy to be the bookmaker
With so many watching on small screens like phones is anything except simple patterns/colours even going to be recognizable
We all know about marketing successes like the Red of Coca-Cola or the Purple of Cadbury.
Simple colours with enormous exposure/marketing behind them
I am not necessarily for greyhound colours either although we agree they help spot horses but where are the findings that said:
for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.
I re-read the opening (why?) and I once again see Scott wants colours to promote A driver as a brand - he is talking about promoting A driver - where is there proof that this would work for the individual much less have a benefit for the industry
I looked up Scott on facebook - I see he has been in business for less than 3yrs. I don't doubt that he does good work for which he has won awards. As far as his facebook page - I must be too old for I am confused by his opening pin as to what Change has been Coming Soon since December 2018
Finally show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?
Did anybody say this? You show me where?
Once again I will state that if you can get trainers/owners on board - have a trial and show us some results because you have not supplied any evidence as to where it has improved any industry
Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are
Galli
07-15-2019, 08:11 PM
Can't believe we are talking about colours and saving the industry in the same sentence...
In Europe drivers use their own colours which are covered in sponsors' ads. Those colours don't "open" to an occasional spectator. You have to be more involved to be able to recognise them. Our colours are easier to follow but I reckon the same applies here as well. Can't see colours making any difference whatsoever in getting new people in.
Handicapping (no, haven't bothered looking into the new system anymore) and programming races together with sufficient integrity measures are the only things keeping participants in the game - in my opinion anyway. Like someone said - trainers we currently have, will bring new people into the industry (stablehands turn into trainers and personal connection between the trainer and public will bring in new owners).
Talking purely driver promotion, why not a driver meet n greet before the first Breeders Crown day? Marquis, trestle on the lawn in front of the winning post. Or, is there a big enough area to have a small marquis/tent for the whole day between the stables and the grandstand/ race day offices? Perhaps the course commentator could announce when particular drivers will be at the tent (when they haven't a driving engagement).
Might be taking it too far but you'd have to have tv monitors so the drivers can keep up with the races and it might be novel that a driver might engage with a fan a little during the running of, about, that race?
No need for colours let alone driver colours, however they could wear their pants, have their helmets...they could have skivvies with their name.
Although, a lot of people would be just as, hopefully excited to see the drivers, in their civvies. A bit more personable, (yes, opposed to pedestal)...a bigger thrill to see your favorite footy, sports, player in the supermarket than away on the field(?). I'll use the Bont, AFL Buldogs captain. On the field he wears the same colours as all the team, could never go with individual footy player colours, but a lot of people like to think they get a glimpse of the person. Don't know how the Bont dresses, grunge...hipster...crotch below his knees...007 but in civvies he's still admirable, the aura but real-er...an every day person or kiddy could aspire.
Definitely no fence sitting, I can't agree going to driver colours will do much for us, at all. Sounds, again, a bit of change for change's sake. In the case of North America, are the drivers instrumental in retaining poker machine revenue? Seems to me their enjoyment of self promotion is backed by the pokies more so than their colours.
If drivers can lobby Mr Pakula to somehow double our total prizemoney, I'll forgo the pic on the wall with my owner colours...maybe I still wouldn't.
Was interested to hear what some of the younger, progressive, media people were saying. Caught a replay of In The Gig. Jason Bonington, his thoughts, agreed with more horse and driver promotion but not driver colours. I think Brittany Graham may have been each way. I'll take that as a no.
Another thing that's interesting is the default for colours in Harnessweb is driver colours. Meaning trainers have to consciously select owner or trainer colours. Some might say their owners and themselves might be living in the past, selfishly holding the sport back, as the great majority would see selections of either owner or trainer colour. But I doubt it's holding us back.
Like the thoroughbred owners and trainers, owner pays the bills, the trainer toils for much much longer than two minutes. And using the gallopers as an example I really couldn't see any benefits for them going to jockey colours.
Haven't been here for a bit so I'll throw another one in. Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.
And just one more. I'll whisper - here in Vic, not a great idea to be thinking about driver colours whilst VCAT is in the integrity mix.
Not a follower of AFL but before someone becomes a follower of a particular player “undressed” so to speak musnt they first become a follower of that player in his “tribal” uniform and learn to identify him, or indeed now her, a process aided by making the uniform unique by the addition of a number and a name?
Has the default setting in harnessweb always been driver colours? Been a few years since I’ve had to enter one, and I seem to recall that trainer colours was the default setting then as trainers need to have colours whilst drivers I don’t believe currently do have to have registered colours.
Thanks to agreements previously signed with Sky the gallops are guaranteed a minimum lead in time of 90 seconds before a race and to remain on Sky 1, something as David Martin wrote trots can only dream off. That reduces the need or benefit of Jockeys wearing jockey colours as the coverage of the pre race barrier loading gives viewers ample time to identify visually and from the commentary which horse and jockey is which and which colours the jockey is wearing. Gallopers also wear uniform coloured numbers.
The gallops are no comparison with our product which has barely any lead in time and is frequently sharing a split screen on Sky 2. And Sky has excercised their option to extend the current contract until 2024.
Care to elaborate on the second last paragraph? Or do you just want to through every supposed “industry insider”under the bus as corrupt and only seeking to feather their own nest if they have a different view to driver colours to yours. An inaccurate and unfair assertion in my opinion.
Similarly the last paragraph is too cryptic for me. What does VCAT in the integrity mix have to do with driver colours? In any case post 1 August VCAT will more or less not be in the integrity mix with their role then being only able to adjudicate on points of law, not rehear cases. Presumably if an owner or trainer was aggrieved at not being able to use “their colours” they could challenge it under restraint of trade, not integrity, only that wouldn’t happen because no one is calling for any kind of restraint of trade on trainer and owner colours, just more promotion and widespread use of driver colours.
Danno
07-15-2019, 11:23 PM
No Danno not late just rooted in the past. The debate is not about what has been but about the need to change and innovate in order to stem the decline in interest in our sport, which is a worldwide phenomenon. The United States is not the only country to use driver colours, and support for driver colours is not because the United States use them but because the professionals and young people involved in marketing our sport here in Australia say that they can build a much superior brand and promotion for our industry using drivers and driver colours then they are able to do now.
“What the game needs in my humble opinion, is to reconnect with the "man on the street", this can best be done by increasing participation levels”
How do we increase participation levels if we do not first reconnect with the “man on the street” ? And isn’t this the space our young social media professionals operate in, shouldn’t we heed their advice?
The most effective syndication model in the industry in the world for small shares in inexpensive horses connecting the men and women “on the street” through word of mouth via social media is thestable.ca in Canada. Canada is a country that uses driver colours, so clearly driver colours are no barrier to increasing participation levels there.
There is no doubt Danno that known drivers are a benefit to increasing turnover, I had this conversation in Sydney with Sam Nati on more then one occasion. And one of the most marked venues that turnover increased when known Sydney drivers attended was your home track of Newcastle. Making drivers more known and identifiable can only be of further benefit to turnover. I’ve little doubt increased participation levels would be beneficial for turnover, but as we know they have been in steady decline for about three decades, all the while whilst the trainer/owner colours you are advocating for have been in use, and yet you steadfastly resist the notion that we should try change?
We currently use the standardised “greyhound” numbers and variable “thoroughbred” owner/trainer colours, wouldn’t we be leveraging our uniqueness if we went to drivers using their own uniquely identifiable colours? And there is of course currently nothing preventing an owner or trainer decking out their horse in their own colours.
Don’t you feel just a little bit hypocritical Danno? Or has the indigenous driver series changed? Don’t the trainers and owners who provide the horses for these races give up their colours in order for you to wear your unique driver colours?
Dot,
please reread my post and take it all in not just the bits you have jumped at, BTW I didn't see any stats to back up this very silly proposal, I know it's not your idea, but you are the one running the gauntlet for it, try some facts please Dot. I'm not into debate for debates sake and you haven't presented any facts at all just a pitiful swipe. You are old enough to know that not all new ideas are good ones, maybe you need to take a cold shower on this one hey?
BTW Dot the indigenous heats are all run in the usual colours the horse races in. The Final, ( Just one of the races in the series) the drivers wear an indigenous design that is a "one off" for that day.
Not their personal colours and the colours are never worn again. Repeat NOT the drivers colours.
Suggest if you want to accurately slight people you should probably get a better understanding of what a hypocrite is, lest you might appear to be one yourself.
I'd suggest some reading Dot, might calm your nerves a little as well!
Messenger
07-16-2019, 12:21 AM
Dot,
"Or do you just want to through every supposed “industry insider”under the bus as corrupt and only seeking to feather their own nest if they have a different view to driver colours to yours."
Please stop this nonsense. We do not expect people to nominate specific names. You know this as well as anyone that licensees have to be circumspect in what they say - the reason why you all email me with some of your thoughts (for me to post)
As for saying Wayne has done something vindictive and only because they have a different opinion to his is just off by you on 2 counts IMO
I do not want to spend a lot of time replying to incorrect statements
Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours
We are not talking about recognizing colours we are talking about REMEMBERING them (and we/you were not talking about regulars)
Lets say Dan is in drivers colours and he chooses his green with black sash and orange bands - pretty distinct actually
But I maintain that if I found a casual punter who had a bet on him today, and I asked him/her to pick his colours this time next month that I would be happy to be the bookmaker
With so many watching on small screens like phones is anything except simple patterns/colours even going to be recognizable
We all know about marketing successes like the Red of Coca-Cola or the Purple of Cadbury.
Simple colours with enormous exposure/marketing behind them
I am not necessarily for greyhound colours either although we agree they help spot horses but where are the findings that said:
for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.
I re-read the opening (why?) and I once again see Scott wants colours to promote A driver as a brand - he is talking about promoting A driver - where is there proof that this would work for the individual much less have a benefit for the industry
I looked up Scott on facebook - I see he has been in business for less than 3yrs. I don't doubt that he does good work for which he has won awards. As far as his facebook page - I must be too old for I am confused by his opening pin as to what Change has been Coming Soon since December 2018
Finally show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?
Did anybody say this? You show me where?
Once again I will state that if you can get trainers/owners on board - have a trial and show us some results because you have not supplied any evidence as to where it has improved any industry
Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are
I see you’ve removed the threat to flounce Kev.
verb
verb: recognise
1.
identify (someone or something) from having encountered them before; know again.
remember
verb
1.
have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something from the past).
English certainly wasn’t my strong suit but aren’t recognise and remember essentially the same thing?
And I’ve not been talking solely about regulars or non regulars but driver colours on the whole.
There are multiple factors that go into how well and how quickly someone would learn to recognise/remember a set of colours and they aren’t limited to the device they are being viewed on. Surfice to say those factors include the significance of those colours to someone, say for example they’d had a large bet on Danno in those colours when he won at 175 to 1 for example. Or those particular colours bore some special significance to them out side of racing. And of course how frequently they are seen and for how long they are seen also comes into it. Be careful with that book Kev you may get stung.
On your arguememt seems there are no benefit to individual trainer and owner colours either for your saying no one can recognise/remember those either. As for the findings on the greyhound colours trial well I don’t think they were ever published anywhere, so I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it. Of course I was actually training in Sydney at the time and attended the meetings at Menangle where they were used, and discussed them with my fellow participants and along with my fellow participants and the punters provided feed back to Sam Nati on them, and the consensus was “for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.”
Think it was about this time of year, end of or early in new season at least 5 maybe more years ago in a series known as The Flying K from memory if you want to check up further on me. That NSW didn’t continue on with Sams pet project of greyhound colours on drivers should tell you all you need to know about the success of them as a driver of turnover.
I can see you have very much miss represented what Scott posted on twitter, here is the exact wording again, nothing like the “A” driver that you claim but EACH driver and for the better reputation of the sport.
“As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely..”
Where is your proof Kev that it would not work? And I see you carefully cherry picked from Scott’s bio that Scott Hamilton Media has been in existence for around 3 years for your post whilst I’m equally certain you read that Scott’s experience in media news and marketing is in the order of 11 years. How does he know it would work, it’s his job to both know it would work and how to make it work.
Don’t think I have the profile needed to change the sport Kev but I clearly don’t need to get at least one high profile trainer on board. And credit where credit due Shane has been one of if not the most active trainer to push for change for the benefit of all trainers and the industry. Shane was a major contributor to the metropolitan handicapping system in use at Menangle which is very popular with participants and punters alike, contributed considerably to the National ratings scheme and is pushing for STB trainers receiving a starters fee as TB trainers do and that looks like going ahead in NSW.
TEAM TRITTON
@Tritton_Team
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@AdamTABSports
@buangboy
and
@CricketAus
Drivers should drive with their own colours with their names on the back .... let the sport promote our rock stars ... yes trainers and owners need to be recognised but we need to be bigger then that to promote our sport
13
TEAM TRITTON
@Tritton_Team
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@AdamTABSports
@buangboy
and
@CricketAus
We are a stable that using more owner and training Colors then anyone I would think.. and I believe the sport need to start doing what the nrl does .. u go to a game and the players are in the big screen pumped up for people to follow and idealise drivers should be our rockstars
As for this Kev
“Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are”
How does driver colours stop you spoting where the multiple runners for a stable are given that very frequently they are in individual owner colours and not the trainer colours when that happens anyway. Take Emma Stewart’s first four in the Vicbred 3yo Colts final for example. So what you really want is a change for your sake to all in trainers colours?
Dot,
please reread my post and take it all in not just the bits you have jumped at, BTW I didn't see any stats to back up this very silly proposal, I know it's not your idea, but you are the one running the gauntlet for it, try some facts please Dot. I'm not into debate for debates sake and you haven't presented any facts at all just a pitiful swipe. You are old enough to know that not all new ideas are good ones, maybe you need to take a cold shower on this one hey?
BTW Dot the indigenous heats are all run in the usual colours the horse races in. The Final, ( Just one of the races in the series) the drivers wear an indigenous design that is a "one off" for that day.
Not their personal colours and the colours are never worn again. Repeat NOT the drivers colours.
Suggest if you want to accurately slight people you should probably get a better understanding of what a hypocrite is, lest you might appear to be one yourself.
I'd suggest some reading Dot, might calm your nerves a little as well!
Rest assured Danno I did read your entire post, including the unsubstantiated swipes that following the “septics” is the cause of much of what ails the industry. How is that fact not just your opinion. If I erred on the indigenous serious I apologise.
So Danno professionals in media and marketing back the proposal but I’m just to take your word for it that “it is very silly”
And really Danno I “need to take a cold shower” or “read to calm my nerves”
How about something substantive about your claim that this is “a very silly proposal”
Messenger
07-16-2019, 01:26 AM
I will give a flounce Dot
You are bad for the tone of this forum - you may not realize it but you are a keyboard warrior who has rarely shown herself to be graceful in debate
Nonsense again:
"On your arguememt seems there are no benefit to individual trainer and owner colours either for your saying no one can recognise/remember those either"
You conveniently forget that we are not talking about regular diehards. OF COURSE REGULARS RECOGNIZE THEM (even driving styles - remember your point). You brought up that we are doing it for occasional punters that we want coming back
No, I won't believe you for at present I believe that you see this thread as a debate for winning and I think you believe in winning at all costs
Twice you have used the wording:
"for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers."
I assume then that you have a document stating this
“As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely..”
I still think that the benefit is potentially WAY more for each driver but I am not really convinced. I am not sure I agree that drivers are the best promoters of the sport - we don't get much out of them and rarely anything of interest (very few are media savvy). As I said before - if one shows themself to be a natural we will use them until the cows come home (and if we manage to get a public profile for him/her - give him/her GOLD colours)
We will put Shane down for pro - I reckon it will also earn him points with his rockstar wife
You still have provided ZERO proof of Driver's colours helping any country/industry or even proof that this is what has contributed to any driver's profile being lifted
You are the one advocating change - it is you that has to provide proof - it is not for me/others to prove it will not work
Of course trainers colours are not always a guide and I don't really care that much otherwise I would not support a trial of drivers colours if those that count wish it (saying that for the 3rd time now)
And so you got your finishing line
"So what you really want is a change for your sake to all in trainers colours?"
from your book of nonsense? Or did you think "Ah, this will be a clever little finish"
ps Whether recognize and remember are the same thing I am still happy to be the bookmaker :)
Dot,
"Or do you just want to through every supposed “industry insider”under the bus as corrupt and only seeking to feather their own nest if they have a different view to driver colours to yours."
Please stop this nonsense. We do not expect people to nominate specific names. You know this as well as anyone that licensees have to be circumspect in what they say - the reason why you all email me with some of your thoughts (for me to post)
As for saying Wayne has done something vindictive and only because they have a different opinion to his is just off by you on 2 counts IMO
I asked Wayne to elaborate Kev. Perhaps I worded it poorly, certainly spelt poorly now that you’ve highlighted it!
“Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.”
How does this apply? Not which industry insider it applies to.
Messenger
07-16-2019, 02:05 AM
I asked Wayne to elaborate Kev. Perhaps I worded it poorly, certainly spelt poorly now that you’ve highlighted it!
“Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.”
How does this apply? Not which industry insider it applies to.
If you really meant the How does this apply as if you do not understand his point, why did you originally say
"An inaccurate and unfair assertion in my opinion."
That does not suggest you didn't understand his point
Messenger
07-16-2019, 02:08 AM
I am closing this thread for the evening - I will reopen it in the morning (moderator's perogative)
eliteblood
07-16-2019, 01:52 PM
Who can name these horses ?
How many of the stars do you think you would be able to name if the colours were removed from the image? The horses colours IMO become an integral part of the horse.
Those of use old enough can instantly recognise Gammalite with his yellow colours and black sash. If Brian Hancock had been wearing his own orange and black checks, I wonder how many people would have known who the horse was?
I am all for promoting our drivers and feel that a lot more could be done to utilise the star appeal of the Chris Alfords, the Kerryn Mannings, the Natalie Rasmussens, etc. but I don't think them wearing a consistent set of colours is an overall benefit to the industry.
The champion horses are the real stars of the sport, those that the public identify with and get excited about. We should make it easier for this to happen by making them as identifiable as possible.
I would be surprised if drivers racing in their own colours increased betting turnover by 0.1%
The sooner this idea is discarded the better.
eliteblood
07-16-2019, 02:07 PM
How disappointing would it be to see this great horse in anything but his famous cerise colours?
Who would be putting their hand up to tell Jack and Bob Ingham that a decision had been made that their horses would no longer be wearing these colours because we think people would bet more if the jockey wore his own colours instead.
Messenger
07-16-2019, 02:20 PM
You have convinced me Trevor. Champions come to be identified with a set of colours.
Champions have more jockey changes (even if it is just the odd one) than owner or trainer changes so let's not fiddle with things for a 'it might ...'
arlington
07-16-2019, 02:37 PM
Just noticed Trevor's posts as I was penning a post. Just two words, totally agree. How far would driver colours take us, I was going to say in my original post, would be lucky if it took us to the next tram stop. A geographic change but no real change to the situation.
My post in reply to yesterday:-
I only used AFL and the bont as an example as I follow the bulldogs. In the AFLW I like Erin Phillips but wouldn’t have a clue of either player’s number. On the need for numbers, AFL, you have 36 contestants versus 10 harness racers. Harness racing doesn’t have scrums and scrimmages. Well, we try not to.
I may have been brief in some of what I posted, rather than cryptic., I was up watching Roger and Novak. I didn’t post until later in the morning, I was going to delete and not bother as I envisaged your attack Dot and your inability to rationally accept people can have differing views.
I’ve given my thoughts, didn’t argue or attack yours. I was being positive in looking at promoting drivers, irrespective of colours and as I suggested on Breeders Crown day.
To clarify some insiders, not all as you’ve twisted it around to. And for that matter I don’t appreciate someone trying to misrepresent me or use me as their springboard. I wouldn’t even say you’ve been shrewd in your methods, not even cunning. A transparent and poor, attempt to redress when queried by the moderator. You’re losing credibility by the minute Dot.
There was no notion of corruption when I penned that, although I could have written some people within the sport which includes owners as well as media. However, I didn’t think the way I expressed suggested in any way anything corrupt. A person Interpreting it in that way could indicate that person believes or has knowledge of that sort of thing going on.
I may have written in the way I did, brevity, as Roger might have had three match points at that stage.
Now that you can pat yourself on the back with your attempt to denounce and misrepresent me once again, I will elaborate.
Some owners will support a driver’s pursuit as she/he is already their preferred driver and by not supporting them, she or he might jump off and on to another horse. Similarly, and nothing corrupt, some media. Like most things, there's lobbying, nothing corrupt but it's often wise to look a bit deeper into why people/s support.
Yep, I realise the VRT comes in August 1 and yes restraint of trade, for a driver who also trains still going to VCAT if they’re put out for a serious training offence. Not sure the Act has the power to disqualify both licences i.e. no restraint of trade VCAT merit applications. Even if the VRT does/can disqualify, as opposed to a suspension of just one licence and it goes no further, great, but that still doesn’t do anything to change my position on driver colours.
I gave a couple of examples of younger media personalities with a profile not in support of driver colours. One comes from within the industry and one who has come from outside.
Making a reference to Kati’s post 44, some more wise heads have also suggested driver colours are way down the list of things to worry about, if at all.
I will give a flounce Dot
You are bad for the tone of this forum - you may not realize it but you are a keyboard warrior who has rarely shown herself to be graceful in debate
Nonsense again:
"On your arguememt seems there are no benefit to individual trainer and owner colours either for your saying no one can recognise/remember those either"
You conveniently forget that we are not talking about regular diehards. OF COURSE REGULARS RECOGNIZE THEM (even driving styles - remember your point). You brought up that we are doing it for occasional punters that we want coming back
No, I won't believe you for at present I believe that you see this thread as a debate for winning and I think you believe in winning at all costs
Twice you have used the wording:
"for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers."
I assume then that you have a document stating this
“As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely..”
I still think that the benefit is potentially WAY more for each driver but I am not really convinced. I am not sure I agree that drivers are the best promoters of the sport - we don't get much out of them and rarely anything of interest (very few are media savvy). As I said before - if one shows themself to be a natural we will use them until the cows come home (and if we manage to get a public profile for him/her - give him/her GOLD colours)
We will put Shane down for pro - I reckon it will also earn him points with his rockstar wife
You still have provided ZERO proof of Driver's colours helping any country/industry or even proof that this is what has contributed to any driver's profile being lifted
You are the one advocating change - it is you that has to provide proof - it is not for me/others to prove it will not work
Of course trainers colours are not always a guide and I don't really care that much otherwise I would not support a trial of drivers colours if those that count wish it (saying that for the 3rd time now)
And so you got your finishing line
"So what you really want is a change for your sake to all in trainers colours?"
from your book of nonsense? Or did you think "Ah, this will be a clever little finish"
ps Whether recognize and remember are the same thing I am still happy to be the bookmaker :)
Don’t know whether to take that as an insult or compliment Kev.
I’ve said previously but for clarification I have been talking about driver colours as a whole, not with regard to any one specific sector of the audience or industry.
No no document, I’ll try to remember to take a notebook with me on the track next time.
How so Kev that the benefit is way more for each driver? They don’t get paid for interviews. Corporate sponsorship is limited to some words on their pants so yes they may have a pair of driving pants given to them. They do not directly profit from the advice they provide on their drives or intentions in the run. In fact sharing that information likely reduces the price on any of their successful drives likely reducing the size of any sling if there were to be one, and they are much much rarer then in days gone by.
Newspaper is not the only form of media these days, and media savy has been lacking in the past. Some of our young drivers and presenters are very very savy in today’s social media environment, you only need to watch RWWAs twitter feed during GP on Friday nights or privateer Ash Brennan’s work from Menangle and some of the carnivals. Victoria is lagging behind in this space.
What proof do you want Kev, other countries have been driver colours for years. There has never previously been an opportunity in today’s social media environment to try driver colours as away to improve our connections with our audience current and hopefully future. The state of the industry should be enough proof that we cannot just simply continue doing what we have in the past.
If you really meant the How does this apply as if you do not understand his point, why did you originally say
"An inaccurate and unfair assertion in my opinion."
That does not suggest you didn't understand his point
No Kev, I did entirely misread his original post but I think I understand now. I think Wayne is afraid promotion of driver colours in the industry will have some push for more or only use of professional drivers in the industry. As the industry needs the investment of everyone possible I don’t see anyone pushing for, let alone any restrictions being introduced that would alienate any sector.
Adaptor
07-16-2019, 04:13 PM
No Kev, I did entirely misread his original post but I think I understand now. I think Wayne is afraid promotion of driver colours in the industry will have some push for more or only use of professional drivers in the industry. As the industry needs the investment of everyone possible I don’t see anyone pushing for, let alone any restrictions being introduced that would alienate any sector.
Blue with yellow panel = -------
Green with yellow stars = ------ ----
Two great horses that raced solely in their trainers colours
arlington
07-16-2019, 07:40 PM
Great pictures and posts Noel and Trevor. It's a pity my reply to Dot's mind reading prowess might mean the thread page is turned.
I'm loathe to admit you can still make me laugh but I'm not laughing with you Dot.
You've introduced a different topic on the back of something I've said. I'll take this one as a compliment. On that, your new topic, I'm glad you can see sense within answering yourself.
Since you've introduced it, I'll add my thoughts (hoping I know my thoughts better than you lol). You're half right, I wouldn't want us to go to only pro's. But the reason being the opportunity for cartels, or the perception of, has never been a good thing, regardless of industry. In that regard, yep that fear goes back to the days when Ian McEwen was Chair and has been documented.
arlington
07-16-2019, 08:39 PM
On the back of posts 59 & 61, you've evoked a brilliant idea from me Dot. I guess I don't really need to post as you'd already know it.
How about a media person who works for TAB use his influence. When a non pro driver is up, TAB should offer another 5 points. No risk for TAB is there? I reckon that would increase turnover more than driver colours. I'm definite it would.
Who can name these horses ?
How many of the stars do you think you would be able to name if the colours were removed from the image? The horses colours IMO become an integral part of the horse.
Those of use old enough can instantly recognise Gammalite with his yellow colours and black sash. If Brian Hancock had been wearing his own orange and black checks, I wonder how many people would have known who the horse was?
I am all for promoting our drivers and feel that a lot more could be done to utilise the star appeal of the Chris Alfords, the Kerryn Mannings, the Natalie Rasmussens, etc. but I don't think them wearing a consistent set of colours is an overall benefit to the industry.
The champion horses are the real stars of the sport, those that the public identify with and get excited about. We should make it easier for this to happen by making them as identifiable as possible.
I would be surprised if drivers racing in their own colours increased betting turnover by 0.1%
The sooner this idea is discarded the better.
Our Sir Vancelot, Hondo Grafton, Blacks a Fake, Popular Alm, all of these without the colours, but I musnt be old enough because I didn’t recognise Gammalite with or without the colours. Brian did wear his black and orange checks on Our Sir Vancelot which certainly didn’t seem to stop people recognising him, though Brian would have driven how many horses out of Teeny Lodge over the years in those colours?
Lazarus raced downunder in both the All Stars colours and the Lone Star colours, I don’t think anyone had any difficulty recognising it was Lazarus. He raced in the green chevrons of Yannick Gingras in North America which can only have helped make him recognisable to them, the All Star or Lone Star colours would have meant nothing to them.
Don’t thing anyone who from downunder watching Lazarus race in NA would have struggled to recognise Lazarus, geared up in black with a subtle touch of Takter green with Gingras in the bike in his own colours. Nor anyone with more then a passing interest in NA harness racing struggle to recognise another champion in McWicked in those same races, decked out in the blue and yellow equipment of Cassie Coleman, driven by Brian Sears in white colours. Two champion horses, Lazarus and Mcwicked, two champion drivers, Gingras and Sears, the green hornet and the white knight, all recognisable to their fans and a promoters dream.
How disappointing would it be to see this great horse in anything but his famous cerise colours?
Who would be putting their hand up to tell Jack and Bob Ingham that a decision had been made that their horses would no longer be wearing these colours because we think people would bet more if the jockey wore his own colours instead.
Octagonal or Lonrho? It is Lonrho, and I certainly wasn’t disappointed to watch him race in black colours as a 2 and 3 year old.
But what do gallops have to do with driver colours ? 90 second minimum lead in time, often more, guaranteed full screen on Sky 1 $100m in prizemoney for the Melbourne Spring Carnival, about a $100m more in Sydney. What do we have in this space? Think the only thing we’ll be telling the gallops is bye bye when we’re gone.
You have convinced me Trevor. Champions come to be identified with a set of colours.
Champions have more jockey changes (even if it is just the odd one) than owner or trainer changes so let's not fiddle with things for a 'it might ...'
It is Lonrho in the picture and he raced in black for Inghams as well, I know you like documents but I don’t know how to post them here, so please check your email.
Took me a while to remember but it was Viscount, the Inghams more favoured colt who raced in the all cerise colours as a 2 and 3 year old not Lonrho. Got squeezed out of a cox plate finish by Champions Sunline and Northerly. I’ll send you that too. Guess it means there’s no problem with champions changing their colours mid career.
Just noticed Trevor's posts as I was penning a post. Just two words, totally agree. How far would driver colours take us, I was going to say in my original post, would be lucky if it took us to the next tram stop. A geographic change but no real change to the situation.
My post in reply to yesterday:-
I only used AFL and the bont as an example as I follow the bulldogs. In the AFLW I like Erin Phillips but wouldn’t have a clue of either player’s number. On the need for numbers, AFL, you have 36 contestants versus 10 harness racers. Harness racing doesn’t have scrums and scrimmages. Well, we try not to.
I may have been brief in some of what I posted, rather than cryptic., I was up watching Roger and Novak. I didn’t post until later in the morning, I was going to delete and not bother as I envisaged your attack Dot and your inability to rationally accept people can have differing views.
I’ve given my thoughts, didn’t argue or attack yours. I was being positive in looking at promoting drivers, irrespective of colours and as I suggested on Breeders Crown day.
To clarify some insiders, not all as you’ve twisted it around to. And for that matter I don’t appreciate someone trying to misrepresent me or use me as their springboard. I wouldn’t even say you’ve been shrewd in your methods, not even cunning. A transparent and poor, attempt to redress when queried by the moderator. You’re losing credibility by the minute Dot.
There was no notion of corruption when I penned that, although I could have written some people within the sport which includes owners as well as media. However, I didn’t think the way I expressed suggested in any way anything corrupt. A person Interpreting it in that way could indicate that person believes or has knowledge of that sort of thing going on.
I may have written in the way I did, brevity, as Roger might have had three match points at that stage.
Now that you can pat yourself on the back with your attempt to denounce and misrepresent me once again, I will elaborate.
Some owners will support a driver’s pursuit as she/he is already their preferred driver and by not supporting them, she or he might jump off and on to another horse. Similarly, and nothing corrupt, some media. Like most things, there's lobbying, nothing corrupt but it's often wise to look a bit deeper into why people/s support.
Yep, I realise the VRT comes in August 1 and yes restraint of trade, for a driver who also trains still going to VCAT if they’re put out for a serious training offence. Not sure the Act has the power to disqualify both licences i.e. no restraint of trade VCAT merit applications. Even if the VRT does/can disqualify, as opposed to a suspension of just one licence and it goes no further, great, but that still doesn’t do anything to change my position on driver colours.
I gave a couple of examples of younger media personalities with a profile not in support of driver colours. One comes from within the industry and one who has come from outside.
Making a reference to Kati’s post 44, some more wise heads have also suggested driver colours are way down the list of things to worry about, if at all.
No Wayne no attempts to denounce or misrepresent you, I merely frequently do not understand some, or most, of what you have written. There is much once again I do not understand from what you have written in this post. Far too cryptic again rather then plain English to me. Our intellects are clearly not on the same page.......
Blue with yellow panel = -------
Green with yellow stars = ------ ----
Two great horses that raced solely in their trainers colours
Sorry Noel I’ve no idea who the “blue with yellow panel” is. The green with yellow stars is Maoris Idol but I know that from the appearance of the horse. If your question had been what colours did Maoris Idol race in, my answer would have been I’ve no idea.
eliteblood
07-17-2019, 08:53 AM
But what do gallops have to do with driver colours ? 90 second minimum lead in time, often more, guaranteed full screen on Sky 1 $100m in prizemoney for the Melbourne Spring Carnival, about a $100m more in Sydney. What do we have in this space? Think the only thing we’ll be telling the gallops is bye bye when we’re gone.
I guess we could tell them that they are missing out on an opportunity to progress their industry by making the horses wear jockeys colours rather then those of the owners / trainers.
I am surprised (not) that a smart man like Peter Vlandys hasn't already woken to such a great idea.
Dot, you will of course know who this star galloper is by merely looking at the horse. The general public (including people in the street that have never been to the races) will also know her because they recognise the colours.
arlington
07-17-2019, 10:08 AM
No Wayne no attempts to denounce or misrepresent you, I merely frequently do not understand some, or most, of what you have written. There is much once again I do not understand from what you have written in this post. Far too cryptic again rather then plain English to me. Our intellects are clearly not on the same page.......
I understand this post Dot - accidentally on purpose scattering the chess pieces.
Adaptor
07-17-2019, 10:21 AM
Sorry Noel I’ve no idea who the “blue with yellow panel” is. The green with yellow stars is Maoris Idol but I know that from the appearance of the horse. If your question had been what colours did Maoris Idol race in, my answer would have been I’ve no idea.
Hi Dot
It's Adaptor !!!!! Check out the 1969 Miracle Mile film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj2XaRPn-8w
I guess we could tell them that they are missing out on an opportunity to progress their industry by making the horses wear jockeys colours rather then those of the owners / trainers.
I am surprised that a smart man like Peter Vlandys hasn't already woken to such a great idea.
Dot, you will of course know who this star galloper is by merely looking at the horse. The general public (including people in the street that have never been to the races) will also know her because they recognise the colours.
Trevor hows our industry going in the Illawarra/Shoalhaven now? How many trainers/horses left? Parking buses on the Bulli track now aren’t they? Have done for at least a few years now. There’s no comparison between our industry and the gallops, they are progressing, we’re not. Perhaps that’s shielded for you in NSW ( but not in the Illawarra) with Dumesny riding V’Landys coat tails on improvements such as race fields legislation and tax parity. Time to take the rose, or should I say, salmon, coloured glasses off and look more broadly at the facts and figures of our industry across the country, the KPIs if you will, not just back at history. Here’s just one for you, WA trotting held over 50% of market share 50 odd years ago when the WATAB was created, now, on the eve of its sale, around 13% of market share. Harold Park is gone, there’s no reason the whole industry will not in time follow suit unless we make ourselves more relevant in today’s sporting and wagering landscape.
I don’t know how many times this needs to be said, no one has said every horse has to wear driver colours all the time. That trainer/owner colours can no longer be used, or that champions cannot have their own unique silks created for them which in time can be immortalised in history. Just that increasing use of driver colours and and creating brands around drivers can better promote and market our sport and connect with people in this era and marketplace.
Of course horsemen or women can recognise Black Caviar for herself. Race fans likely will remember her colours, some of the public may too, but in all likelihood over time all many of the public will remember will be her name, and perhaps her incredible record as undefeated moreso then they will remember her colours.
But let’s go back to your previous example, Lonrho did begin his career in black silks before going onto race in Inghams more famous all cerise in which he is now remembered. Many horses in both codes have begun their career with different trainers and colours before going on to be remembered as champions for another trainer and in different colours. How would it be any different in history, if a future champion in our code commenced his or her career in driver colours before switching colours, as their star ascended, to the colours of their trainer or owner or indeed to colours uniquely their own.
Messenger
07-17-2019, 12:55 PM
Trevor hows our industry going in the Illawarra/Shoalhaven now? How many trainers/horses left? Parking buses on the Bulli track now aren’t they? Have done for at least a few years now. There’s no comparison between our industry and the gallops, they are progressing, we’re not. Perhaps that’s shielded for you in NSW ( but not in the Illawarra) with Dumesny riding V’Landys coat tails on improvements such as race fields legislation and tax parity. Time to take the rose, or should I say, salmon, coloured glasses off and look more broadly at the facts and figures of our industry across the country, the KPIs if you will, not just back at history. Here’s just one for you, WA trotting held over 50% of market share 50 odd years ago when the WATAB was created, now, on the eve of its sale, around 13% of market share. Harold Park is gone, there’s no reason the whole industry will not in time follow suit unless we make ourselves more relevant in today’s sporting and wagering landscape.
I don’t know how many times this needs to be said, no one has said every horse has to wear driver colours all the time. That trainer/owner colours can no longer be used, or that champions cannot have their own unique silks created for them which in time can be immortalised in history. Just that increasing use of driver colours and and creating brands around drivers can better promote and market our sport and connect with people in this era and marketplace.
Of course horsemen or women can recognise Black Caviar for herself. Race fans likely will remember her colours, some of the public may too, but in all likelihood over time all many of the public will remember will be her name, and perhaps her incredible record as undefeated moreso then they will remember her colours.
But let’s go back to your previous example, Lonrho did begin his career in black silks before going onto race in Inghams more famous all cerise in which he is now remembered. Many horses in both codes have begun their career with different trainers and colours before going on to be remembered as champions for another trainer and in different colours. How would it be any different in history, if a future champion in our code commenced his or her career in driver colours before switching colours, as their star ascended, to the colours of their trainer or owner or indeed to colours uniquely their own.
Not just 'some'. A gracious writer would admit many are likely to recognize (like that word Dot) her colours if they saw a pic or clip
I see you are watering down how often/if /when you think these colours need to be used now
The Lonhro argument is another example of you not being gracious and ends up with you all over the place with your need 'to win' - just be satisfied with voicing an opinion
Tying your horse or should I say drivers colours to "make ourselves more relevant in today’s sporting and wagering landscape" is 100/1 to be the answer
I hope you enjoy my next post :)
Messenger
07-17-2019, 12:56 PM
It is amazing what little coincidences life throws up
To put me to sleep each night I have been reading Local Rites by Paul Daffey
It is about his travels to country and suburban football matches in 2000
Each chapter visits a different town
Last night it was 'Land of the Danihers'
I have said run with it when a personality puts their hand up but the following is why it always has to be about the horse
On my left was an expansive pub of golden bricks, of the type favoured in New South Wales but never seen in Victoria, with Tooheys New signs in bold, black letters.
But on my right, smack in the centre of town, was the statue of Paleface Adios, the Temora Tornado, whose distinctive white blaze had failed to cross my mind for two decades.
Now it featured in recollections of Saturday nights at Moonee Valley, when, like many early teenagers around Essendon, I was too young to go to parties but somehow old enough to bet on the horses.
In one of several farewell races, Paleface Adios streamed four-wide down the straight to win in typically dramatic fashion, providing one of my earliest sporting highlights.
I wasn't sure that Ungarie would provide a sporting highlight but, after seeing the likeness of the lairy chestnut, who often seemed to have luck on his side,
I was satisfied that the long journey into a strange land would be worth my while
It could only be about a horse
(For a Vic who loves football, the book is a good read but being a 2001 publication may be hard to find)
Hi Dot
It's Adaptor !!!!! Check out the 1969 Miracle Mile film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj2XaRPn-8w
Very good Noel, it IS Adaptor !!!!! Thanks to your efforts and a number of others who share your dedication to our history I think we can be confident that a good deal of it will be preserved. How much of a future we will have to be similarly preserved in time is where the doubt lies.
Not just 'some'. A gracious writer would admit many are likely to recognize (like that word Dot) her colours if they saw a pic or clip
I see you are watering down how often/if /when you think these colours need to be used now
The Lonhro argument is another example of you not being gracious and ends up with you all over the place with your need 'to win' - just be satisfied with voicing an opinion
Tying your horse or should I say drivers colours to "make ourselves more relevant in today’s sporting and wagering landscape" is 100/1 to be the answer
I hope you enjoy my next post :)
Kev I think you, like many people interested in racing, over estimate the penetration that racing, even TB racing including champions such as Black Caviar and Winx has with the general public. It’s nowhere near what you seem to think. I’m not from a racing family, there is not and has not ever been anyone in my family interested in horses or racing. If I mentioned Black Caviar or Winx to any of my sisters I’d just get a blank stare, one niece would likely say I’ve heard of them, her husband the only one who would likely know anything about them and I’d very much doubt he’d remember the colours.
I spent my career in Aviation, 35 years, amongst a few hundred people in two states and several locations, and very few had any interest in horses or racing, less then 10% I’d estimate, though there were some punters amongst them. Aircraft, flying and travel predominated in their thoughts, the racing pages of the paper barely viewed ( except by me!) and the channel changed on the TV when the sports segment of the news went to racing. Black Caviar and Winx may have been able to draw thousands to the tracks they raced but of the millions of people in those cities many would have had little more then a passing interest the details of which will fade in time including any knowledge of the colours. So no I don’t believe “many” of the general public will recognise Black Caviars colors if they saw a picture. Vision of a race may be a better stimulus to memory.
Winx and Black Caviar may have brought 40 to 50 thousand to tracks in Sydney, V’Landys proposal to shine the Everest’s horses colours on the Sydney Opera House brought a petition effectively opposing racing with 300,000 signatures to parliament. We over estimate the general public’s interest and connection to racing at our peril.
No I haven’t watered down how often/if/when I think these colours should be used, the emotive response to the suggestion of using driver colours brought people charging in to post on an all or nothing, black or white, basis, on the use of driver colours only that was never suggested, and without considering the issue on a broader basis.
For someone who demands “documents” and “proof” don’t you think we should be dealing in facts? The facts are Lonrho raced in black colours as a juvenile before he donned the all cerise. I doubt anyone viewing his early races would be disappointed he wasn’t in the all cerise, the black colours, and Viscount in the all cerise, are part of his history and shouldn’t his true story be told?
“Tying your horse or should I say drivers colours to "make ourselves more relevant in today’s sporting and wagering landscape" is 100/1 to be the answer”
To be the entire answer Kev 100 to 1 is way unders but no one (bar you here) is suggesting more use of driver colours alone is “The” answer, just part of it and certainly amongst the conversations we need to be having in order to find pathways to secure our future. If there was to be one answer then I guess it would be to have investment levels and revenue streams equivalent to the gallops. How do you propose we achieve that?
Remember the furore coloured clothing and limited overs brought to cricket? And then 20/20 with its hectic pace, fireworks and miked up players? How did that change the landscape for cricket across the world? Did it end traditional test match cricket? No it breathed new interest and growth in that version of the game as well.
Messenger
07-17-2019, 03:21 PM
Did you like how my football author had such vivid memories of a brief encounter with Paleface Adios decades after the event
I do not overestimate the interest in racing despite being the harness black sheep in a family that includes a bro-in-law that called more Melbourne Cups than any other but I cannot see the relevance of the question to wanting drivers colours as opposed to say trainers colours. The discussion on diverse public interests applies to everything - racing, aircraft, football, politics ....
So no I don’t believe “many” of the general public will recognise Black Caviars colors if they saw a picture
Your comprehension skills are good enough to realize you seemed to be talking about those who had followed the Black Caviar story 'recognizing' the colours not the general public or aviation industry but now it suits you to change your tack. Read the following in case you forgot what you wrote
"Of course horsemen or women can recognise Black Caviar for herself. Race fans likely will remember her colours, some of the public may too, but in all likelihood over time all many of the public will remember will be her name, and perhaps her incredible record as undefeated moreso then they will remember her colours."
IMO many who took even a brief interest will remember her name, her unbeaten record and recognize her colours
We have a system where different choices of colours are possible now but you would not want to have a system that was constantly swapping - it would do the viewing public and race-callers no favours
So you have to have a fall back - you want drivers' colours some don't
The nitpicking on Lonhro is ridiculous but you wanted to go back to the Lonhro colours rather than Winx and Black Caviar. My daughter's father in law had pink (not salmon) with black spots as his group's colours before Black Caviar and people sometimes mistake his winning photos for Black Caviar
CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE (I have a plane to catch)
Let's just find some media savvy/interesting drivers to use and do the occasional promotion all the while hoping our administrators are focusing on the bigger answers
ps I do not remember the WSC clothing causing any furore and I am afraid this fan of test and even one day cricket (how good/unlucky NZ) has never watched a 20/20 match
Messenger
07-17-2019, 03:27 PM
STOP - before you go to post and reread
CAN WE PLEASE JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE
“Now it featured in recollections of Saturday nights at Moonee Valley, when, like many early teenagers around Essendon, I was too young to go to parties but somehow old enough to bet on the horses.
In one of several farewell races, Paleface Adios streamed four-wide down the straight to win in typically dramatic fashion, providing one of my earliest sporting highlights.“
“Did you like how my football author had such vivid memories of a brief encounter with Paleface Adios decades after the event”
Reads to me as if your football author had extensive experience of harness racing including Paleface Adios as a child and a brief encounter with a statue.......
Messenger
07-17-2019, 08:48 PM
Of course it would to you Dot
But I notice you did not include the start in your quote - the part where he wrote :
[I]whose distinctive white blaze had failed to cross my mind for two decades./I]
It did not suit you - my god, I don't think I have ever debated with anyone less gracious
Another little tip you could take on board - he is an author - he would have done some research before publishing :)
Actually Kev I was going to write how he noticed the blaze but made no mention of the colours.
But I knew you would once again accuse me of being ungracious so I didn’t.
Of course he is an author, could have made the whole thing up!
I may as you say Kev be less then gracious in a debate but it’s people like me who keep you safe when you fly. Don’t miss your plane now.
Messenger
07-17-2019, 10:40 PM
Lol
Messenger
07-17-2019, 11:47 PM
Nothing to do with the pros or cons of drivers' colours
Some famous colours going around in The Maori Legend at Stawell tomorrow
https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/maori-legend-pink-to-go-green-and-gold/
Pink Galahs is not his only reli in the race
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SW180719#SWC18071909
I wish HRA would get around to verifying who the Idol's sire was (time for another email)
Danno
07-18-2019, 12:03 AM
This is a beautiful, no bullshit promotional video I'm sure we would all agree,
https://www.facebook.com/john.empson.52/videos/886117781517651/UzpfSTE4NDcyMDUxMDU6MTAyMTE4NDQzMjQ5MDQwMTk/
and not one mention of a driver leave alone what colours they are wearing.
I know it wont be, but I reckon it should probably be the last say on this silly topic.
cheers,
Danno
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