10yrs Ago Equineexcellence Called CRISIS - solutions ?

[Messenger]

A decade ago Harness Racing International magazine printed an open letter to harness racing participants which was written by Ray Chaplin

It began with

Despite all the rhetoric you may hear or read from many of our self congratulatory industry leaders the fact is that the sport you love is gradually sliding into oblivion as a mainstream entertainment pastime for Australian sporting fans

The letter went on to detail that between 1980 and 2009
the number of drivers, trainers, local sires, total foals and horses named
ALL FELL BY OVER 50%
despite the Australian population Increasing 46%

In 2014 Ray updated these figures to between 1980 and 2013
and showed that they had all fallen further with all these key stats DOWN by 57% plus

In this updated report which he sent to all HRA Board members he concluded:

The ever widening gap between costs and returns for most owners resulting in a continued weakening in the supply and demand model for the breeding of Standardbreds (the racing product) will, in the not too distant future, bring a once wonderful sport and past time to its knees

He never got a reply

Now we come to current times and in his latest report Ray notes that:

The Inaugural HRA National Conference was held on Friday 14 December 2018 at Flemington Racecourse and is being hailed a success.

.........

Of the 19 initiatives listed above not one is focussed upon the key breeding crisis issue confronting the sport nor the need for a comprehensive investigation into the effectiveness of the sports integrity management

It is now 7 months since the conference was held and no full review has been published

Ray has just done the maths on Total Services 18-19 compared to 17-18 and there has been a 13% decline

He also notes how the following two David Martin statements don't reconcile

“The signs indicate we have started to turn the corner…
I sincerely hope that the improved performance already evident gives you confidence that the industry’s future is now more secure”
David Martin Chief Executive Officer 2018 Annual Report

However in his April 2019 CEO update David Martin stated:-

Frustratingly, since January 2017, we have made a number of changes to Victorian programming that have clearly improved wagering turnover on our product but the positive impact of that is being offset by factors outside our control, reducing our share of revenue from the JV and in turn our ability to increase prizemoney, invest in breeding, clubs, industry training et cetera.

How is this more secure?

If you are interested in Ray's full report please contact him at

contact@equineexcellence.biz

[arlington]

Not diverting Kev, but sticking with Victoria, has Ray any thoughts with the Vic Racing Tribunal starting next week?
In another thread someone posed participant beliefs and/or perception of integrity/fairness of racing might be a significant factor of the breeding crisis.

[Dot]

Andrew Fitzgerald
@AFitzyRacing
Racing's biggest issue at the moment isn't low stakes, handicapping system, lack of horses, lack of owners, declining turnover, run down racecourses or integrity.

It's negativity from those involved in the industry at people trying new ideas to improve the industry.
3:20 PM · Jul 7, 2019 from Waimakariri District, New Zealand·Twitter for Android


I originally posted this tweet in the Drivers Colours thread for authenticity as it originated from the twitter discussion on driver colours, and Kev has elected to move it.

Though it isn’t actually laughable as you subsequently write Kev if you want to consider it more broadly.

“Racing's biggest issues at the moment ARE low stakes, handicapping system, lack of horses, lack of owners, declining turnover, run down racecourses or integrity”

Your statement above Kev, what do you consider the origins of the big issues in your statement? It wouldn’t be doing what we have been doing would it?

What would the soloution be? Doing more of the same, and expecting a different result? Or would it be responding positively to new ideas and giving them a try?

[Messenger]

That is the most laughable statement ever

Racing's biggest issues at the moment ARE low stakes, handicapping system, lack of horses, lack of owners, declining turnover, run down racecourses or integrity.

Plus administrators who do not seem to be listening or drawing on the ideas of those older than 30 too

[Messenger]

Well maybe it is not laughable for we desperately need new ideas but not just any ideas - Big ideas
There will always be some negativity - it too needs to be listened to as it can be a a valuable critique of what is being proposed. Negativity in itself is not IMO the problem and definitley not the biggest problem.

This is from early in the Equineexcellence report from 10yrs ago. You will love the opening Dot

Harness Racing in Australia needs to scrap past and present practices, start again and reinvent itself if it to survive

A fresh green fields approach to how the sport can attract the levels of public following and resultant participation needed for it to flourish and support the employment of your kids and grandkids in the future is urgently required

I’m sure in the next edition of Harness Racing International you will read a flurry of responses from the current administration regime justifying their existence on the basis of a range of new initiatives – Melton and Menangle being just two that will probably get a mention

From an inwardly focused industry perspective they might have a moot point that these initiatives are positive changes for the industry’s minuscule heartland

But in the big outside world where the Internet, I pods, Facebook, and DVD games reign supreme, harness racing has become an entertainment dinosaur from a prehistoric past

Nothing significant has changed in the sport of Harness Racing to ensure it remains relevant to the Australian sporting public for over three decades

If anything the sport has abandoned its core follower attraction of a glamorous exciting and exhilarating sporting entertainment experience and its differentiation from thoroughbred racing (close to the action) in favour of industry focussed and driven initiatives

These include the introduction of some unnecessarily large tracks and/or tracks which are located in less convenient and less attractive population precincts further removed from ancillary entertainment activities of the big cities

Look from the perspective of the sporting public and compare the location benefits and surrounding quality environments of Flemington, Randwick and Morphettville with Melton, Menangle and Globe Derby Park – no wonder the image of harness racing is more closely aligned with a beat up Holden Ute than it is to a glistening Lexus IS 250C (That’s a sleek Lexus convertible)

In comparison with the sport in its’ hey day harness racing now generally offers a lack lustre boring entertainment experience in the minds of today’s mainstream sporting entertainment market

And the result - they vote with their feet and no longer attend

But it’s great for the industry players especially if their priority is total self interest and no interest whatsoever of the importance of sporting audiences at large (who couldn’t care less if a horse ran 1.59.0 or 1.52.0 especially if they are on a track so big can’t even see how their fancy is going)

Essentially harness racing today puts on the show for itself and seems happy to leave it at that

[Dot]

A decade ago Harness Racing International magazine printed an open letter to harness racing participants which was written by Ray Chaplin

It began with

Despite all the rhetoric you may hear or read from many of our self congratulatory industry leaders the fact is that the sport you love is gradually sliding into oblivion as a mainstream entertainment pastime for Australian sporting fans

The letter went on to detail that between 1980 and 2009
the number of drivers, trainers, local sires, total foals and horses named
ALL FELL BY OVER 50%
despite the Australian population Increasing 46%

In 2014 Ray updated these figures to between 1980 and 2013
and showed that they had all fallen further with all these key stats DOWN by 57% plus

In this updated report which he sent to all HRA Board members he concluded:

The ever widening gap between costs and returns for most owners resulting in a continued weakening in the supply and demand model for the breeding of Standardbreds (the racing product) will, in the not too distant future, bring a once wonderful sport and past time to its knees

He never got a reply

Now we come to current times and in his latest report Ray notes that:

The Inaugural HRA National Conference was held on Friday 14 December 2018 at Flemington Racecourse and is being hailed a success.

.........

Of the 19 initiatives listed above not one is focussed upon the key breeding crisis issue confronting the sport nor the need for a comprehensive investigation into the effectiveness of the sports integrity management

It is now 7 months since the conference was held and no full review has been published

Ray has just done the maths on Total Services 18-19 compared to 17-18 and there has been a 13% decline

He also notes how the following two David Martin statements don't reconcile

“The signs indicate we have started to turn the corner…
I sincerely hope that the improved performance already evident gives you confidence that the industry’s future is now more secure”
David Martin Chief Executive Officer 2018 Annual Report

However in his April 2019 CEO update David Martin stated:-

Frustratingly, since January 2017, we have made a number of changes to Victorian programming that have clearly improved wagering turnover on our product but the positive impact of that is being offset by factors outside our control, reducing our share of revenue from the JV and in turn our ability to increase prizemoney, invest in breeding, clubs, industry training et cetera.

How is this more secure?

If you are interested in Ray's full report please contact him at

contact@equineexcellence.biz

To be clear the falling KPIs quoted here commence from 1980, well preceeding claims our demise is the result of moving away from the inner city entertainment precincts and small track racing in Sydney and Melbourne and which is in general terms Rays premise as to why our sport is failing

Similarly to “reconcile” David Martins statements then knowledge of how the JV works and the deal the previous adminstration entered into. Changes to programming introduced with David Martins tenure have increased turnover on Vic harness racing despite agreements entered into with TAB/Sky which guarantee that TBs and greyhounds even if they are late are guaranteed a certain amount of lead time and to remain on Sky 1. That places us at an enoumous commercial disadvantage to the other two codes, offsetting the benefits that changes to programming created, and our funding is linked to market share which is reduced by being shown on Sky 2. Also included in that agreement is “imported” trots racing, we obtain revenue from wagering on imported trot races however we have no control over how much trot racing is imported, hence we have no control over that revenue stream, and TAB/Sky have chosen to reduce the amount of trots races that they show and wager on, roughly corresponding with when we began to increase wagering on our own Vic product.

Hence David Martins statements do not reconcile, because of changing circumstances during the timeline between the two statements. There’s no easy fix’s, those agreements entered into by the John Anderson led administration extend until 2024.

[Messenger]

So are you saying that our percentage of turnover, the basis of JV revenue, has not decreased between the anniversary dates?

So are you saying the statement that the industry's future is more secure is not at odds with saying reducing our share of revenue from the JV and in turn our ability to increase prizemoney, invest in breeding, clubs, industry training et cetera.

[Messenger]

Solutions?
You were a major poster about HRV providing free services to mares not served last season - possibly leasing a sire for that purpose.
Lennytheshark was suggested by somebody (but may now be tied to a stud)
Have you emailed David Martin with the suggestion?
We do a lot of brainstorming on this forum but I am not sure HRA/HRV are even reading (I know it would be strange if they're not but they seemed to disappear of the face of the earth/this forum)

[Dot]

No I’m not saying that, I’m saying that our percentage of turnover had increased on the elements we control, that is programming and volume of our races, BUT overall our market share has declined because of factors we don’t control, ie our races being bumped to Sky 2 because of the contracts Sky/Tab have with TBs and Greyhounds, and particularly the amount of foreign harness product imported by Sky/Tab for viewing and wagering on which has been markedly reduced by Sky/TAB so there has been a bigger decline in share from that then the amount gained from programming and volume of our races.

No Im not saying the statements aren’t at odds, they are at odds, and that is because of the joint venture and the actions of or occurrences at Sky/TAB, during the time interval between the two statements. When the first statement was made we had made improvements that had arrested our slide under the joint venture since it was signed in 2012 and should have seen us improve our market share. However subsequent to the first statement being made Sky/Tab more frequently began bumping harness to Sky 2 and reduced the amount of imported foreign harness product being provided, and wagering on this foreign product is included in the calculations so our overall market share began to decline again hence the second statement.

I don’t know how to put it anymore simply Kev, we have been on the downward slide since 2012, for a short period when then first statement was made the line had flattened out and was, I recall, beginning to rise again, Sky/Tab then reduced the amount of overall harness product available to create market share for harness causing the line to angle downward again, precipitating the second statement. The statements do not reconcile but are reflective of the conditions prevailing at the time each was made.

[Messenger]

More importantly - why don't you see if DM will give the 'free service' an airing

To be fair to Sky, if we don't run on time you put yourself at risk, do we ever get bumped when on time? (used to happen very occasionally in the past)
I don't watch very much at all on Sky - prefer Trots Vision nowadays

[Dot]

Really Kev, you think HRV can’t come up with the idea of free or discounted services for themselves? ( or reading the forum)

And yes we are increasingly being bumped when we are on time but the other codes are experiencing delays putting them behind and us being shifted because of it.

But I guess we should be grateful to Sky for allowing us to have trotsvision

[Messenger]

Really Kev, you think HRV can’t come up with the idea of free or discounted services for themselves? ( or reading the forum)

And yes we are increasingly being bumped when we are on time but the other codes are experiencing delays putting them behind and us being shifted because of it.

But I guess we should be grateful to Sky for allowing us to have trotsvision

Why are you so sure that they can?
Why should we assume they are considering it?
Do you think the 'drivers' of the HRV bus have been heading in the right direction for the last few decades?

PS Might need facts and figures again Dot
I decided to check out Sky for a race - just saw Toowoomba gallops bumped because they were late and we were ready to go

PS2 But I wonder how many non-enthusiasts know Vision exists

Overall, I think the 'bumping excuse' is overdone

[Dot]

Why are you so sure that they can?
Why should we assume they are considering it?
Do you think the 'drivers' of the HRV bus have been heading in the right direction for the last few decades?

PS Might need facts and figures again Dot
I decided to check out Sky for a race - just saw Toowoomba gallops bumped because they were late and we were ready to go

PS2 But I wonder how many non-enthusiasts know Vision exists

Overall, I think the 'bumping excuse' is overdone

Well they have been handing out free services to Kevin Seymour’s stallions for some mares races now Kev for over 18 months, and the free service is included in the race conditions so someone at HRV must be across the idea that free services are desirable. I’m not assuming they’re considering it further, I’m assuming they aren’t considering it further because they’ve spent their powder on the certificates they’ve awarded.

Do I think the drivers of the HRV bus have been heading in the right direction the last few decades? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and sometimes the bus has had to follow the road laid out for it.

On your first PS, I don’t have Sky but I’ll see your Toowoomba and raise you two previously at Cobram:


David Martin
@DavidMartinAU1
·
Jul 10
Replying to
@simbarroo

@maree_newberry
and 3 others
Unfortunately it's due to preferential Sky arrangements that disadvantage #Trots coverage through to 2024. Not much good talking about changing to drivers colours if they're running around on the blue screen through no fault of our own as has happened to Cobram twice today.

[Messenger]

I can actually remember being outraged at unfair bumps
It would be interesting to quantify what it actually costs the industry

The biggest outrage is for home viewers who watch through Foxtel and do not have Sky2.
I wonder whether this is really very many? Very many watching through foxtel that is
There should be lobbying to include Sky2 into the basic package or at least the Sports package - the fee of $60 is pretty insignificant but it is not going to occur to non-enthusiasts to even consider it
It would be interesting to know how many people have Sky2 - it would take 1 click for Foxtel to tell us
If I did not have it, I know I can get it on the Sky website

Maybe Sky2 will come to the new Kayo Sports?
What about all of you that watch racing through an app provided by a betting agency - do you get Sky2 or is that the blue screen you refer to?
Those in a TAB of course, only have to look at a different TV screen when a bump occurs

[arlington]

I can actually remember being outraged at unfair bumps
It would be interesting to quantify what it actually costs the industry

The biggest outrage is for home viewers who watch through Foxtel and do not have Sky2.
I wonder whether this is really very many? Very many watching through foxtel that is
There should be lobbying to include Sky2 into the basic package or at least the Sports package - the fee of $60 is pretty insignificant but it is not going to occur to non-enthusiasts to even consider it
It would be interesting to know how many people have Sky2 - it would take 1 click for Foxtel to tell us
If I did not have it, I know I can get it on the Sky website

Maybe Sky2 will come to the new Kayo Sports?
What about all of you that watch racing through an app provided by a betting agency - do you get Sky2 or is that the blue screen you refer to?
Those in a TAB of course, only have to look at a different TV screen when a bump occurs


Taken from the April 2019 CEO Report (assuming this it the April 2019 CEO "update") as partially quoted in this thread - If HRV chose not to run races on Sky 1 it would result in approximately 40 per cent less turnover, making those meetings unviable.

Additionally, The only Victorian harness races guaranteed to be run on Sky 1 are Group 1 races.

As well as - Existing arrangements also mean that Sky determines which codes run in various timeslots (e.g. only thoroughbred racing on Sky 1 for Saturday daytime) and individual race times for each meeting.

I received the Harness Racer in April and read the full CEO Report then. Having previously read the Annual Report, I didn't think we'd been misled.

[arlington]

From your post 4 Kev, "Plus administrators who do not seem to be listening or drawing on the ideas of those older than 30 too".

Can't agree with that in Victoria. Have seen a number of participants over 30 deep in conversation with the CEO at the races as well as the bulk of the attendees at the CEO roadshows being over 30 and being listened to. And not just in one ear and out the other. What actually has been disappointing is the lack of under 30's, that we have, attending the roadshows.

Having written the above, and considering what Ray wrote, "The Inaugural HRA National Conference was held on Friday 14 December 2018 at Flemington Racecourse and is being hailed a success.... It is now 7 months since the conference was held and no full review has been published".
I totally agree, we should have seen something from HRA by now. Especially as the youth forum was also held.

[Messenger]

Taken from the April 2019 CEO Report (assuming this it the April 2019 CEO "update") as partially quoted in this thread - If HRV chose not to run races on Sky 1 it would result in approximately 40 per cent less turnover, making those meetings unviable.

Additionally, The only Victorian harness races guaranteed to be run on Sky 1 are Group 1 races.

As well as - Existing arrangements also mean that Sky determines which codes run in various timeslots (e.g. only thoroughbred racing on Sky 1 for Saturday daytime) and individual race times for each meeting.

I received the Harness Racer in April and read the full CEO Report then. Having previously read the Annual Report, I didn't think we'd been misled.

That sounds to me like a 40% turnover drop IF a meet was scheduled to be on Sky 2 - NOT what the drop is if a race is bumped to Sky 2, often after the scheduled start time

[arlington]

Given the context of where and why it was included in the full "update", it does give an indication of how damaging it is. You're suggesting we've got our knickers in a knot over nothing Kev?


I don't use Sky 2. Rarely watch a race on my phone. I used to head into the house to catch a race I was interested in through the day but don't bother now because of the bumps.
I prefer Sky 1 over trots vision. Too late and a hassle arcing up the laptop or pc to catch part of the race.

[Messenger]

I find the 40% reduction figure large for a last minute bump (maybe even for if a meeting was scheduled on Sky2)

If that is the bump %, it suggests that 60% of our punters/turnover are casual observers.
I base this on the fact that owner/stable connections are going to back it regardless
Pro punters and others that have been following a particular horse are not going to be put off
Those on course are going to still bet
and therefore the 40% drop is loss of casuals

I then say this is suggesting the Casual observer percentage is in the order of 60% for:
Some casuals are not going to be lost as they have Sky2 or only have to look at the 'other screen' in the TAB when there is a bump (or phone app caters for this - I do not about this as I am not a phone person)
And at least 10% of the 60% turnover that still eventuates would have to be casuals who have already put their bet on before the last minute bump
I find 60% way too high for casuals and would think those groups I listed in the previous paragraph to be at least 60% of turnover not casuals

It would be interesting to have some research but for the above reasons I find it hard to believe a bump costs us 40%
It would not be hard to research you would just need somebody to asterisk every time a race is bumped
Somehow, I doubt anybody in the harness industry or even Sky is doing that and so the 40% is just an estimate
That is - if it is even the 'bump' figure.
Far easier to do the maths (even retrospectively) if it is the figure for meets scheduled for Sky2

[Messenger]

More from the Equine Excellence report of 10yrs ago:

If anything the sport has abandoned its core follower attraction of a glamorous exciting and exhilarating sporting entertainment experience and its differentiation from thoroughbred racing (close to the action) in favour of industry focussed and driven initiatives

These include the introduction of some unnecessarily large tracks and/or tracks which are located in less convenient and less attractive population precincts further removed from ancillary entertainment activities of the big cities

In comparison with the sport in its’ hey day harness racing now generally offers a lack lustre boring entertainment experience in the minds of today’s mainstream sporting entertainment market

And the result - they vote with their feet and no longer attend

But it’s great for the industry players especially if their priority is total self interest and no interest whatsoever of the importance of sporting audiences at large (who couldn’t care less if a horse ran 1.59.0 or 1.52.0 especially if they are on a track so big can’t even see how their fancy is going)

Essentially harness racing today puts on the show for itself and seems happy to leave it at that

One of the Harness Racing’s most critical issues is the lack of public awareness and interest in actually attending harness racing

Who cares?

The industry is more about the punter and TAB turnover than it is about attracting on course patronage according to most industry administrators

And bigger tracks and faster times are a necessity, say most industry participants

In my view both have their priorities wrong

The accepted and unchecked decline in public attendance is one of the major fundamental reasons behind the industry’s failure to maintain its once prominent position in the Australian sporting scene

The blame for this lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the sport’s executive administrators, past and present – those that have been paid and rewarded to develop and grow the sport on your behalf

They have failed in this duty as will the industry itself if it fails to demand immediate and dramatic change across every facet of the sport starting at the very top

Why is public attendance so vital?

Simply because potential new outside recruits to the industry have to actually experience and become emotionally involved in harness racing before they take the next step to participation

No new industry recruits means no more industry, nothing for the punters to bet on, no need for the big tracks and no use for fast race records

And at present the industry product is not capable of attracting anywhere near the number of new non industry connected recruits to maintain the viability of Harness Racing into the future

[Excursion]

Kev, it would be pretty hard to find a more accurate summary of where things are currently at in harness racing than what you have just so eloquently put. Administrators seem to excel at window dressing, management speak and shuffling deck chairs but have no real idea how to attract the public back. Could what has happened in Queensland and South Australia be a preview of what is to come? The sport has become a victim of it's own success - there is more racing than ever with less horses than ever. Maybe this success will eventually consume the sport and consign it to a novelty act at agricultural shows?

[Messenger]

Kev, it would be pretty hard to find a more accurate summary of where things are currently at in harness racing than what you have just so eloquently put. Administrators seem to excel at window dressing, management speak and shuffling deck chairs but have no real idea how to attract the public back. Could what has happened in Queensland and South Australia be a preview of what is to come? The sport has become a victim of it's own success - there is more racing than ever with less horses than ever. Maybe this success will eventually consume the sport and consign it to a novelty act at agricultural shows?

Interesting that you should say that David because Ray summarized the report he wrote this month as follows

A once great vibrant harness racing industry now finds itself in terminal decline with the hopes and dreams of many younger participants never to
materialise

All because of incompetent management which still prevails today, the greed of those that cheat to gain advantage and some of the larger studs who gained benefit from unlimited books to the demise of the smaller studs

Australian harness racing executives followed a flawed North American model which has seen a massive decline in public interest followed by a corresponding decline in industry participation

Had any of Australia’s top brass had the intelligence to study the North American model they would have quickly discovered that an industry model subsidized by huge poker machine incomes or massive government grants could not be replicated in Australia

There is now little left that Australian participants can do other than to try and slow down the ultimate demise of a professional sporting industry into an expensive “hobby” pastime

To do this means that in Donald Trump terms the participants must call for the draining of the swamp

The only way to achieve this is for concerned participants to create on–line petitions in their home States to call on Governments for a full review into the Governance of their sport with the objective of establishing a proven professional management regime model to strategically reposition the harness racing brand to meet the needs and wants of the public at large

Anything less will see harness racing as we now know it disappear within the next decade and the gap filled by thoroughbred and greyhound racing

[Dot]

I find the 40% reduction figure large for a last minute bump (maybe even for if a meeting was scheduled on Sky2)

If that is the bump %, it suggests that 60% of our punters/turnover are casual observers.
I base this on the fact that owner/stable connections are going to back it regardless
Pro punters and others that have been following a particular horse are not going to be put off
Those on course are going to still bet
and therefore the 40% drop is loss of casuals

I then say this is suggesting the Casual observer percentage is in the order of 60% for:
Some casuals are not going to be lost as they have Sky2 or only have to look at the 'other screen' in the TAB when there is a bump (or phone app caters for this - I do not about this as I am not a phone person)
And at least 10% of the 60% turnover that still eventuates would have to be casuals who have already put their bet on before the last minute bump
I find 60% way too high for casuals and would think those groups I listed in the previous paragraph to be at least 60% of turnover not casuals

It would be interesting to have some research but for the above reasons I find it hard to believe a bump costs us 40%
It would not be hard to research you would just need somebody to asterisk every time a race is bumped
Somehow, I doubt anybody in the harness industry or even Sky is doing that and so the 40% is just an estimate
That is - if it is even the 'bump' figure.
Far easier to do the maths (even retrospectively) if it is the figure for meets scheduled for Sky2

Sorry Kev, you’ve lost me with your reckoning but why would you doubt that both the harness industry and Sky are monitoring closely what goes on in the “engine room” of their businesses? I think you’ll find when a “bump” occurs, not just that it occurs determines the degree of impact on turnover so any figure would just be an average.

[Messenger]

I am not sure you are trying
Where have I lost you - for half my working life I was a chalkie so I'm sure I can teach you :)
In the meantime:
Do you think that a bump is going to put off
- pro punters and others that have been following a particular horse
- owner/stable connections
- those on course
- those in a TAB (which do have TV's on Sky2 too)
-those who have Sky2 subs

You have lost me on your reply - are you stating the obvious that when a bump occurs could determine the impact it has
This however is overrated IMO as the number of times a race is bumped before its official starting time is minimal
so how much do you think goes on 'at the jump' other than from the BIG boys/girls - who are not going to be worrying about which channel they are watching on

You have a much rosier view of what HRV is doing than I have Dot
Who would be monitoring whenever a race is bumped?
The same person that used to (NOT) update the Suspended Drivers list on the HRV site - which has now disappeared along with anything under Integrity other than the Integrity Matters newsletter which is under 'News' and has NOT appeared this year
(and yes, I know that Harnessweb users can access Suspended drivers)

[Dot]

I don’t doubt the accuracy of the figures in Rays reports or the analysis of the situation but I’ve yet to read of a solution in Rays reports, a not what we need to achieve but a how to achieve it. Ray doesn’t have the answers any more then anyone else does, he just writes professionally and more elequently then the rest of us.

[arlington]

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly in post 18 Kev, Given the context of where and why it was included in the full "update", it does give an indication of how damaging it is. You're suggesting we've got our knickers in a knot over nothing Kev?

In reference to how damaging it, being bumped, is; no I don't believe the figure of 40% is from being bumped. But if scheduling on Sky2 instead of Sky1 meant a reduction, why is it inconceivable being bumped would cause no damage? Hence "knickers in a knot over nothing". I don't think I'm exaggerating when I suggest even a 1% reduction is significant for us.

I'm not sure of everyone's viewing situations but I have seen where a pro punter has #$@&*! when a harness race has been bumped. Many punters will also be betting on sports at the same time that's not interrupted/bumped.

A great amount of turnover does come from participation. Participants which includes owners of course aren't happy with being bumped and I do know it does curtail turnover. Not sure of how someone new into syndication expects to watch their horse race but I imagine it might be via Sky 1 as a first choice.


edit: As you suggest Kev, adding sky 2 to a Foxtel package might not be much of an imposition for many but considering how hard it is to get new people into syndication, wouldn't you rather they be spending that extra money (is it $30/month) on another horse or a little dabble?

[Messenger]

The thing with adding Sky2 is how ridiculous it is
What I mean by that is that it is the only 'add on' of all their numerous sports channels
All the rest are part of the sports package
If you don't have the sports package (the only reason to have foxtel IMO) it is going to cost you to get that first ($30?) then it is $5/mth for Sky2

What I have previously campaigned for is Sky2 to at least be part of the Sports package
It is ridiculous that when they bump and say go to Sky2 they pretend everybody has it
If something is scheduled for a basic package channel (that is what Sky1 is) it is not only rude but also bad business to bump it to a non-basic package channel - you are guaranteeing yourself complaints

Foxtel will have to improve their game soon or Kayo Sports streaming sports without having to pay for a basic package is go to hurt them

[Messenger]

I have heavily edited post 25
I make this extraordinary note as the post was on the board for 15hrs
I apologize for my tardiness but I have never received any training to be a moderator but from the moment I read the post I was not comfortable with it
It became clear to me what troubled me about the post

I edited the post because the poster never disputed anything in this thread about a report that was written and circulated 10yrs ago
But claimed that the author longer than 10yrs ago might have held a different opinion
IMO the post then amounted to 'playing the man'

[Dot]

Nothing to dispute in the 10 year old report except the viability of supporting small track inner city venues. The change in view from the author doesn’t preceed the 10 year old report it precedes the current report.

[Messenger]

I think you will find Ray has questioned the US model for a while Dot
I did a little research as you suggested in a pm
and found this link to the american Harness Racing Update from 6yrs ago
where on a night where they were racing for over $2.4mUS
they dedicated 2 pages to 'It Cant Just Be About Slots'
extensively quoting Ray Chaplin of Australia
(It starts on pg3)

https://harnessracingupdate.com/pdf/hru/hru081713.pdf

Please keep replies relevant to what has been posted in this thread

ps Despite what Dot might suggest, I do not think Ray is the Messiah
but think his research is very much worth reading

[Dot]

2019 minus 10 equals 2009 for the 10 year ago report.
2019 minus 6 equals 2013 for the harness racing update story.

That still leaves 4 years.....

[Messenger]

Not that it has anything to do with topic but Dot :confused: