Where's my money?

[aussiebreno]

I had a tenner on Im Themightyquinn at $4.20 IIRC. So where is my $42?

[David Summers]

Breno , you are not alone , but I had a LOT more than $10 on him . Gggrrr!!

[admin]

I forgot what I had on him, but I'm sure it would have been a fair chunk more than $10 as well. I was at the race so my ticket is well gone now.

[gutwagon]

You blokes forgot to ask for intrest as well ! The money I won on SU is long gone so you wont be getting any of that back !

[triplev123]

Nearly 19 years ago, at the Bathurst God Crown Carnival, I backed Statuesque pre-post anywhere & everywhere I could get on & was set to win an Armaguard Van full of cash...only to see her nutted by Jaime Land in the Final, the winner later returning a positive. The final was held on the evening of March 27th, 1993. The date's burned into my brain. Bob Knight was her Trainer as I recall. A.M Donhoe was in the bike. Maybe memory fails me but I'm pretty sure that was the line-up. I would have taken out enough to buy a 3 bedroom house in the Sydney 'burbs.

[aussiebreno]

Nearly 19 years ago, at the Bathurst God Crown Carnival, I backed Statuesque pre-post anywhere & everywhere I could get on & was set to win an Armaguard Van full of cash...only to see her nutted by Jaime Land in the Final, the winner later returning a positive. The final was held on the evening of March 27th, 1993. The date's burned into my brain. Bob Knight was her Trainer as I recall. A.M Donhoe was in the bike. Maybe memory fails me but I'm pretty sure that was the line-up. I would have taken out enough to buy a 3 bedroom house in the Sydney 'burbs.
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=92N420&ms=nsw#BHC2887
Sorry to relive your pain VVV. As a bit of trivia I note Young Mister Charles won at that meeting. He of course was disqualified from his placing in a NZ Inter.



And sorry I'm not high roller guys!

[David Summers]

I am usually not a high roller either ( well that's what I tell my wife , and I think she believes me ) , but I was so confident going into the ID final that I let myself go a bit backing IMTQ. Devastated after the race .......... even worse now .............. but I'll get over it http://www.postsmile.net/img/20/2040.gif (http://www.postsmile.com/)

[admin]

And sorry I'm not high roller guys!

Haha didn't mean it like that. I obviously didn't lose the $ to buy a 3 bedroom house, or else I'm sure I would have remembered how much I bet.

[triplev123]

It crushed my confidence as a Punter you know Jules. From then on the best I could muster was to toss coins for Steak Sandwiches and Cokes. :rolleyes:

[Flashing Red]

Probably a bit unpopular... but as I've said before I've found from personal experience that DMSO is not performance enhancing in any way. So whether the horse got a positive or not, on the night ITMQ had every opportunity to run SU down and he couldn't - you would have all lost your money anyway, regardless :)

[G-Mac]

I had a lot more on Changeover to win the Len Smith Mile a few years ago than I did on ITMQ to win the ID11 final; so I can't complain...

[aussiebreno]

Probably a bit unpopular... but as I've said before I've found from personal experience that DMSO is not performance enhancing in any way. So whether the horse got a positive or not, on the night ITMQ had every opportunity to run SU down and he couldn't - you would have all lost your money anyway, regardless :)
Maybe it didn't enhance his performance. Maybe it didn't make him better. But did it give him the ability to race at 100%; whereas possibly he may not have? Also; he should not have started in the race. Smoken Up was what; $3? Thats 40% reduction in the market at a 120% market so reduce IMTQ price by 40% to say $2.50 and give me those winnings; I'll still be happy enough.

[Flashing Red]

Maybe it didn't enhance his performance. Maybe it didn't make him better. But did it give him the ability to race at 100%

Without wanting to really get into this, I think the crux of the argument put forward is that the horse raced drug free in the race itself and that the substance only became present after the race. The only sample taken before the race, ie the only sample that could have proven if the drug was in the horses system before the race, was destroyed.

[aussiebreno]

Without wanting to really get into this, I think the crux of the argument put forward is that the horse raced drug free in the race itself and that the substance only became present after the race. The only sample taken before the race, ie the only sample that could have proven if the drug was in the horses system before the race, was destroyed.
That's an opinion.
Fact: Smoken Up has been disqualified from the race.
Fact: Placings are 1. ITMQ. 2. BAF. 3. Smiling Shard (I think SS got 3rd lol)
Fact: I had $10 on ITMQ to finish 1st.
Fact: ITMQ finished first.
Fact: I had $10 on ITMQ to finish 1st. ITMQ did finish 1st.
Fact: I didn't get my money even though my bet was correct.
So back to the original question. Where's my money?

[triplev123]

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=92N420&ms=nsw#BHC2887
Sorry to relive your pain VVV. As a bit of trivia I note Young Mister Charles won at that meeting. He of course was disqualified from his placing in a NZ Inter.

And sorry I'm not high roller guys!

[VVV] I did have a fair bit on her but I was young & stupid at the time, as opposed to being older & stupid now, and I really thought she could take it all. I thought that she was a lock. Initially I got her at 18/1 pre post & then I backed up again on the Final night & took the 10's that was on offer for her to win the Final. Averaged well into double figures & had she saluted...geeze, you know I still get to feeling a bit ill just thinking about it. :( Haven't had a bet even remotely approaching that size ever since. (handbag)

[Flashing Red]

Brendan!!!!! Stop trying to wind me up! :P :P :P :P :P Now your playing semantics which I can too hehehe. :P IMTQ didn't cross the line first because the horse that did, SU, was a better horse (on the night). You put the win only bet on ITMQ because you thought he would cross the line first in the Inter dominion. He crossed the line second and you lost your money. This is not opinion, this is also fact :)

Moral of the story? Don't bet!! :) I'll tell you a funny story... I put my first bet on in like 3 years (I probably only bet about 5 times in my life) the other day and I was so anxious about it all day I came out in hives (ask Fred H, lmao!). Red blotches all over me!! The horse won in the end, but I am certainly not cut out to be a punter in any capacity that is for sure. I was thinking more about loosing $100 than what I would win if the horse was first past the post!! :P Then I couldn't sleep that night because I was high with the buzz of it all. Don't know how you guys do it!! :)

[Mighty Atom]

"Maybe it didn't enhance his performance. Maybe it didn't make him better. But did it give him the ability to race at 100%; whereas possibly he may not have? Also; he should not have started in the race." As quoted by aussie he is quite correct. DSMO is used as an analgesic and anti -inflammatory. Sorry Flashing.

[Flashing Red]

That's OK, my comments were more tongue in cheek than anything. :) I respect the rules even if I don't always agree with them and I've always liked ITMQ regardless. I always thought Holy Camp Boy had more point to point speed but ITMQ took that mantle for me last season.

[triplev123]

Maybe it didn't enhance his performance. Maybe it didn't make him better. But did it give him the ability to race at 100%; whereas possibly he may not have? Also; he should not have started in the race. Smoken Up was what; $3? Thats 40% reduction in the market at a 120% market so reduce IMTQ price by 40% to say $2.50 and give me those winnings; I'll still be happy enough.

[VVV]...and so we arrive at the very crux of the matter Breno, that being the significant difference that exists between a substance that does not enhance ability but rather affords horses the opportunity to be at & to maintain their best form, or more simply...the case in favour of Maintenance/Therapeutics & against Performance Enhancers.

The fact is that currently, in the absence of a common sense approach to establishing thresholds for various substances, Australian & NZ drug rules serve to work in direct opposition to the very thing that the Industry...that the Stewards try to ensure each & every day and that the TAB & the Punters so strongly desire...that being handicappable, consistent and as much as is humanly possible predictable Form.

Until such time as the Industry grows up a little and gets over its hangups as far as the use of therapeutics is concerned, we will continue to row without both of our oars in the water. That we continue to struggle with TCO2 testing does not fill me with a whole lot of hope for an open debate on anything beyond that, however. :(

PS. Just as an example...lets say a horse that has a few little aches & pains is given Bute on a Friday night after it races. 12 hours or so later, in the early hours of Saturday morning, that dose of Bute is now of little or no pain relieving benefit to the horse at all and most certainly well within 24hrs it is all over bar the shouting, no effect whatsoever.
Nevertheless, the following Friday the same horse, not having had any Bute for 7 days, drops in to race, is swabbed, duly returns a positive to Bute EVEN THOUGH the level is so minute as to be absurd & EVEN THOUGH pharmacologically it is having absolutely ZERO,ZIP, NADA, BUGGER-ALL effect on the horse at all...yet the Trainer duly cops time on the sidelines & maybe a fine to go with it. How could that be even remotely thought of as being resonable, sensible or fair?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Without wanting to really get into this, I think the crux of the argument put forward is that the horse raced drug free in the race itself and that the substance only became present after the race. The only sample taken before the race, ie the only sample that could have proven if the drug was in the horses system before the race, was destroyed.
Is that true Red? Wow! That was the whole case. Clear pre race and the horse was 'nobbled'. Positive and Lance is/was guilty. If this is the case, then the NZ stewards and ruling body needs to be cleaned out. I suppose the time they took to get rid of Geoff Small is indicitive of their system.

[Flashing Red]

Is that true Red? Wow! That was the whole case. Clear pre race and the horse was 'nobbled'. Positive and Lance is/was guilty. If this is the case, then the NZ stewards and ruling body needs to be cleaned out. I suppose the time they took to get rid of Geoff Small is indicitive of their system.

Taken from Harnesslink....



Justice has always maintained his innocence, and his case was given a significant boost from the crown prosecutor Chris Lange, acting on behalf of Harness Racing New Zealand.

"It is not alleged Lance Justice is complicit in any way, there is no evidence to support that," he told the hearing.

Smoken Up was however, allegedly presented to race with a prohibited substance in his system, forcing a legal question of absolute liability. NZ Racing Laboratory tests of one sample revealed a DMSO reading of 25.8mg per litre of urine, the limit is 15mg. Thomas put forward the possibility of sample contamination and a suggestion of an outside source immediately after the race as likely reasons as to how it got there. DMSO is easily absorbed through the skin and can be applied in liniment form.

A cross-examination of HRNZ chief veterinarian Andrew Grierson, who collected the post-race urine sample, and New Zealand Racing Laboratory analyst Craig Gardner, who tested them, revealed a pre-race blood sample taken from Smoken Up before the race to test for TCO2 (elevated bicarbonate levels), was later destroyed and never tested for DMSO, in accordance with normal procedure.

Squire and Hall became involved in the Gardner cross-examination, which drew the revelation there was potential for contamination due to "instrumental carry-over".
Squire: "Are you suggesting that the trace levels (of DMSO) may have got there as a result of the testing process?"
Gardner: "That's a possibility."

.....

Yesterday's evidence centred on the discarding of a crucial pre-race blood sample that could have proven Smoken Up was presented to race in the final free of DMSO for which he tested positive from a post-race urine sample. The defence's star witness, Kentucky-based veterinary science professor Thomas Tobin, testified via video link that urine was a "highly flawed forensic sample" when it came to DMSO in standardbred horses.

"A far superior sample is provided via the blood," Tobin said. Which made the destruction of the pre-race blood sample taken from Smoken Up just over one hour before the final, even more baffling to Mary-Jane Thomas, defense lawyer for the connections of Smoken Up.

Thomas questioned Racing Integrity Unit head Cameron George over the blood sample and the security of horses at Alexandra Park.


"Would it not seem obvious to you that a blood test would be important?" she asked.
George said retrospective samples from Smoken Up were requested on May 13. By then the NZRL had destroyed the blood sample.

[aussiebreno]

Brendan!!!!! Stop trying to wind me up! :P :P :P :P :P Now your playing semantics which I can too hehehe. :P IMTQ didn't cross the line first because the horse that did, SU, was a better horse (on the night). You put the win only bet on ITMQ because you thought he would cross the line first in the Inter dominion. He crossed the line second and you lost your money. This is not opinion, this is also fact :)

Moral of the story? Don't bet!! :) I'll tell you a funny story... I put my first bet on in like 3 years (I probably only bet about 5 times in my life) the other day and I was so anxious about it all day I came out in hives (ask Fred H, lmao!). Red blotches all over me!! The horse won in the end, but I am certainly not cut out to be a punter in any capacity that is for sure. I was thinking more about loosing $100 than what I would win if the horse was first past the post!! :P Then I couldn't sleep that night because I was high with the buzz of it all. Don't know how you guys do it!! :)
My formguide didn't tell me Smoken Up had DMSO in his system.
And what about protests 2nd V 1st getting upheld! They pay on the 2nd horse past the post. This is a very similar case to that only the disqualification/relegation of the 1st horse happened 6months later not 6 minutes later.

You must have been bloody confident before putting the bet on for a 5 time punter to put on a $100! Next time you have a punt shoot us a PM!

For the record I actually don't care about the $10 I lost or the $40 that could have been; its the principle of the thing.

[aussiebreno]

[VVV]...and so we arrive at the very crux of the matter Breno, that being the significant difference that exists between a substance that does not enhance ability but rather affords horses the opportunity to be at & to maintain their best form, or more simply...the case in favour of Maintenance/Therapeutics & against Performance Enhancers.

The fact is that currently, in the absence of a common sense approach to establishing thresholds for various substances, Australian & NZ drug rules serve to work in direct opposition to the very thing that the Industry...that the Stewards try to ensure each & every day and that the TAB & the Punters so strongly desire...that being handicappable, consistent and as much as is humanly possible predictable Form.

Until such time as the Industry grows up a little and gets over its hangups as far as the use of therapeutics is concerned, we will continue to row without both of our oars in the water. That we continue to struggle with TCO2 testing does not fill me with a whole lot of hope for an open debate on anything beyond that, however. :(

PS. Just as an example...lets say a horse that has a few little aches & pains is given Bute on a Friday night after it races. 12 hours or so later, in the early hours of Saturday morning, that dose of Bute is now of little or no pain relieving benefit to the horse at all and most certainly well within 24hrs it is all over bar the shouting, no effect whatsoever.
Nevertheless, the following Friday the same horse, not having had any Bute for 7 days, drops in to race, is swabbed, duly returns a positive to Bute EVEN THOUGH the level is so minute as to be absurd & EVEN THOUGH pharmacologically it is having absolutely ZERO,ZIP, NADA, BUGGER-ALL effect on the horse at all...yet the Trainer duly cops time on the sidelines & maybe a fine to go with it. How could that be even remotely thought of as being resonable, sensible or fair?

I don't set the rules. I just want them to be adhered to. Hey I might disagree with murder being a crime (I don't - its hypothetical) but I can't just go out on a killing spree can I.

Also; I'm actually with you on what you just wrote. Shit I wouldn't care if you were allowed to put fireworks up a horses rear end (as long as it was ethical to the horse lol) slingshot it forward in the same manner as pulling the plugs - just more explosive. But while it isn't allowed trainer's can't go breaking rules just because they disagree with the rule.

[Flashing Red]

You must have been bloody confident before putting the bet on for a 5 time punter to put on a $100! Next time you have a punt shoot us a PM!

The law of averages dictates my next bet will probably be in 2 years time! Hehehe! I'll PM you the story!! :)