Smoken Up and Im Themightyquinn accept Miracle Mile invitations

[David Summers]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93854

[gregcattell]

smoken up loosing last tuesday through spanner in the works,
If he won would have already been invited yet the winner of
that race has not should have been invited on that run

[p plater]

I thought Terror to Love was invited last Tuesday. Thats why he didn't start today

[gregcattell]

only 3 invited Smoken Up,Raglan, Im Themightyquin

[p plater]

Greg, this appeared in NZ Press on Wednesday

"Instead the Courts and McDonald waited anxiously by their phones last night for an invitation to the Miracle Mile in Sydney. It came and they gratefully accepted the opportunity for another shot at a big money race in the same month".

[aussiebreno]

Greg, this appeared in NZ Press on Wednesday

"Instead the Courts and McDonald waited anxiously by their phones last night for an invitation to the Miracle Mile in Sydney. It came and they gratefully accepted the opportunity for another shot at a big money race in the same month".
Well yeah that source and another NZ source http://www.mobilerolling.com/ say Terror To Love has been given an invitation (although it says excepted and not accepted). But nothing on HRNSW, Harness.org or Harnesslink confirms this.
This article says that Smoken Up, ITMQ and Raglan are the only ones in the field. http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17114

I think Terror To Love should get an invite; in fact I think it's crazy he hasn't got one if that's the case. But one thinks the NZ media and/or his connections are up to tricks trying to get him an invite....

[G-Mac]

It will be very exciting to see ITMQ wind up in that long straight.

[David Summers]

Breno , read this. Terror To Love has not been invited http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93920

[MasterK]

I honestly cant see how Smoken Up gets an invite and not terror to love. I mean look at the NZ Cup Smoken Up had an easy run. I'm still amazed how he lost. He made them go a slow time and still cant beat a 4 year old that got pushed to the back twice, was about 8 wide coming round the turn and still beat Smoken Up home. I guess there was no DMSO or whatever it was this time.

Nz Cup winner should automatically receive an invite. Why not put the best kiwi horse in the race?

[teecee]

I honestly cant see how Smoken Up gets an invite and not terror to love. I mean look at the NZ Cup Smoken Up had an easy run. I'm still amazed how he lost. He made them go a slow time and still cant beat a 4 year old that got pushed to the back twice, was about 8 wide coming round the turn and still beat Smoken Up home. I guess there was no DMSO or whatever it was this time.

Nz Cup winner should automatically receive an invite. Why not put the best kiwi horse in the race?

It's an Australian race. NZ have no automatic right to an invite. If they invite Soken Up then they have invited the winner of NZ's leading sprint race to their leading sprint race. It just so happens that he is the fastest sprinter in this part of the world. That leaves them with more options for invites now with 3 automatic invite races.

[spurbuck]

"We think we've got the best horse that raced at the cup carnival, Smoken Up." ..... umm who beat who again???

[MasterK]

Hey if Terror to Love had of backed up in the FFA hey may have beaten Smoken Up. The precedent for many years now is to invite the winner of the NZ Cup. Just because the race is run in Australia doesnt mean it is only Australian horses. Similar to how Smoken Up races in the New Zealand cup. Maybe they should change the system from where some races winners have automatic invites back to the NSW team inviting the best 8 horses. I mean raglan is no where near as good as Terror To Love

[MasterK]

It's an Australian race. NZ have no automatic right to an invite. If they invite Soken Up then they have invited the winner of NZ's leading sprint race to their leading sprint race. It just so happens that he is the fastest sprinter in this part of the world. That leaves them with more options for invites now with 3 automatic invite races.

I seem to remember the NZ Cup champion being a kiwi not an Australian. I mean I could be wrong but I was at Addington watching the race. I mean wouldnt the NZ Cup champion be the best horse? Not the horse that won the FFA.

And anyway Smoken Up, once again, did not perform in the NZ Cup. I mean they went slow he went to the front and walked them for 2 laps and got out sprinted home. The one time Lance Justice drives him properly and still he cant win. Maybe try again next year?

[p plater]

Terror to Love racing in Cordina Sprint on Saturday night at Menangle Park. Here's his chance to show how good a miler he is.

[doinmabest]

Kurt,
In years past NZ cup winners were invited. Any invitations were always at the discretion of the directors of the NSWHRC. As the NZ Cup is such a big race the winner, moreso in recent years got an invite. This year there was a change of programming whereby it was announced that the only assured positions were given to the winners of 3 sprint races run I'm Australia, The Newcastle Mile, The Coca Cola and The Cordina. The directors then had discretionary options to invite a few and then make the field up from those that took part but did not win the qualifying races. Raglan came and conquered the mile at Newcastle, so in similar fashion, Terror To Love gets an opportunity to qualify, and perhaps gain a spot even if he doesn't win but Aquits himself well....the conditions were well known to all...

[mango]

Fred
You are correct that there was a change of programming and it was announced early for connection's wanting to gain a start in the Miracle Mile, but for me i don't think you are going to get the best 8 horses in the race. I have nothing against Raglan or anyone invloved with the horse but to be honest with you he is not a Miracle Mile horse and would of been lucky to be in the top 10 horses in N.Z but that's just my opinion. I would like to see both 4yr old's Terror To Love and Bitobliss get a start as they are up and comming grand circuit horses. The other thing i find strange is that they have put these sprints on to show case Menangle park and so on but then they change the Inter so heats are run in every state go figure.

[MasterK]

Fred I understand the change of conditions. I just dont see why you wouldnt invite the best horses. You would have to say Terror To Love deserves more of a spot than even Smoken Up at this point. Smoken up really hasnt proved a lot to me this campaign.
Even if the conditions have changed after the run Terror To Love had in the NZ Cup h should be an automatic starter. if you swapped him and Smoken Ups runs you can almost guarenttee Smoken Up would not have gone anywhere near as good as he did.
Its a race that should include the best 8 horses in Australasia and thats not what its turning out to be

[aussiebreno]

Fred
You are correct that there was a change of programming and it was announced early for connection's wanting to gain a start in the Miracle Mile, but for me i don't think you are going to get the best 8 horses in the race. I have nothing against Raglan or anyone invloved with the horse but to be honest with you he is not a Miracle Mile horse and would of been lucky to be in the top 10 horses in N.Z but that's just my opinion. I would like to see both 4yr old's Terror To Love and Bitobliss get a start as they are up and comming grand circuit horses. The other thing i find strange is that they have put these sprints on to show case Menangle park and so on but then they change the Inter so heats are run in every state go figure.
On prior form 100% agree, but hard to say that now after he ran past Mr Feelgood.
What you say about Inter is spot on.

[aussiebreno]

Kurt,
In years past NZ cup winners were invited. Any invitations were always at the discretion of the directors of the NSWHRC. As the NZ Cup is such a big race the winner, moreso in recent years got an invite. This year there was a change of programming whereby it was announced that the only assured positions were given to the winners of 3 sprint races run I'm Australia, The Newcastle Mile, The Coca Cola and The Cordina. The directors then had discretionary options to invite a few and then make the field up from those that took part but did not win the qualifying races. Raglan came and conquered the mile at Newcastle, so in similar fashion, Terror To Love gets an opportunity to qualify, and perhaps gain a spot even if he doesn't win but Aquits himself well....the conditions were well known to all...
Yes Fred the conditions were known to all and one condition was the NZ Cup winner may get an invite.
I don't know what possible explanation connections of Terror To Love can get that justifies why they didn't get an invite yet Smoken Up did.
Yes Smoken Up deserves one; mile record holder and defending Mile champion but after what happened 7 days ago I don't know how you can say no to Terror To Love.
As it is this week in the Cordina just about all horses have tried and failed 1 or 2 times in their quest for an invite so it would be hard to justify giving those horses a discretionary spot.
The format I am a fan of. Because I thought with the plain print where it says horses who contest lead up races would be given preference would avoid situations where people are crying about Special Albert and Rohan Home being included in the field (eg past 'weak' Newcastle Mile winners) or where in the days leading up to the final field selection it would avoid a Make Mine Cullen V Melpark Major issue like last year. I thought the system would be used as a tool in selecting the final 2 or 3 spots; not as a tool to say no to a horse that clearly deserves a spot.

[teecee]

I seem to remember the NZ Cup champion being a kiwi not an Australian.
I dont remember raeding anyone saying different. We all know TTL is a kiwi horse
I mean I could be wrong but I was at Addington watching the race. I mean wouldnt the NZ Cup champion be the best horse? Not the horse that won the FFA.

And anyway Smoken Up, once again, did not perform in the NZ Cup. I mean they went slow he went to the front and walked them for 2 laps and got out sprinted home. The one time Lance Justice drives him properly and still he cant win. Maybe try again next year?

The point is that the race is by INVITATION for at least 5 runners and it is upto the NSWHRC to invite whoever they choose. Winning the NZ Cup, which incidently I too saw won by Terror to Love is not one of the automatic entry races. I shan't go back too far in the history of both great races but I do remember Young Quinn being invited even though not winning a NZ Cup.
He was invited because that's who the NSWHRC wanted to invite and he duly won.

IMO not since the days of SIX starters only has there been a MM field of the very best pacers available.

[G-Mac]

"The best 8 horses" is always going to be a matter of opinion. Whether it is solely through invitations at the discretion of the directors or via the route the club has created this year there will always be people who feel a better horse missed out. No system is perfect and that is why we end up with this same tired conversation every year. You will never please everyone, and in some will never be pleased at all.

At the end of the day the NSWHRC put on an invitational event at a high cost to themselves. They should be able to pick and choose whoever they feel is appropriate. In all seriousness, you could not leave out a horse who ran 1.48 and change at that track only 7 months prior. With Smoken Up and ITMQ invited the race is assured of Australiasia's best two performers over the last 12 months. They have earned their passage, the rest can do the same and best of luck to them. I hope this Staurday that Terror To Love unleashes a last quarter like he did last Tuesday and makes it into the MM. What a race it will be.

[doinmabest]

Yes Fred the conditions were known to all and one condition was the NZ Cup winner may get an invite.
I don't know what possible explanation connections of Terror To Love can get that justifies why they didn't get an invite yet Smoken Up did.
Yes Smoken Up deserves one; mile record holder and defending Mile champion but after what happened 7 days ago I don't know how you can say no to Terror To Love.
As it is this week in the Cordina just about all horses have tried and failed 1 or 2 times in their quest for an invite so it would be hard to justify giving those horses a discretionary spot.
The format I am a fan of. Because I thought with the plain print where it says horses who contest lead up races would be given preference would avoid situations where people are crying about Special Albert and Rohan Home being included in the field (eg past 'weak' Newcastle Mile winners) or where in the days leading up to the final field selection it would avoid a Make Mine Cullen V Melpark Major issue like last year. I thought the system would be used as a tool in selecting the final 2 or 3 spots; not as a tool to say no to a horse that clearly deserves a spot.

Hi Brendan,
Yes as usual, you are spot on...One of the clauses indicates that one Invite MAY be given after the running of the NZ Cup. It doesnt mention the invitation going to the winner. I just read the conditions again on the meeting calendar on Harness.org and the invitation to ITMQ, though in my opinion is a good one for the race, doesn't meet the published conditions. BELOW

An event open to a maximum eight Pacers (exclusive of Reserves).The winner of the Newcastle Mile, Coca Cola - Amatil Sprint, Cordina Sprint, receive automatic invitations if accepted by the connections. One invitation may be given after the running of the New Zealand Cup, all other invitations will be issued by the Directors of the NSWHRC but only from horses who competed in the Newcastle Mile, Coca Cola - Amatil Sprint and Cordina Sprint. Reserves (if any) drawn with the invited Pacers)

Now I did hear that one invite would be totally discretionary,(but couldn't see that anywhere). If that was the case it explains why ITMQ was invited (discretionary) SU (got the NZ Cup invite) and the rest come from the 3 sprints......HOWEVER... if SU got the discretionary spot (and given his record should have, IMO) where did the invite for ITMQ come from........

I think no matter what, we all concede on it's NZ Cup win TTL deserves a crack.

[G-Mac]

One invitation may be given after the running of the New Zealand Cup, [I]all other .

Fred, my reading of that condition is that it refers to the timing of the invitation, not the race where the invited horse will come from. Which is why the rest of the condition reads "horses who competed in". Might be my misinterpretation.

I agree regarding TTL. I would love to see him here.

[Don Corleone]

I too would love to see Terror To Love in there however simply to say because he won the NZ Cup he should be there is rubbish. Smokin Up is a obvious choice he has ran the fastest mile down our way, he has proved time and time again he's a champion. Terror To Love has raced over the sprint distance about 4-5 times and won once in about a 58 mile rate.
Yes in a perfect world all the above horses would be in and what a race it would be but it is a invitation race and if there is no invitation coming your way then so be it. For 20 years I waited for a invitation to join the All Blacks - it never arrived. As Paul Court said, "I am gutted". :mad:

[doinmabest]

Never Give Up Ray...Never Give up....
LOL

[David Summers]

Weather / barrier draw permitting , does anyone think that Smoken Up's 1:48.5 Australasian record will be lowered in the Miracle Mile?

[Just Saying]

Don't have a problem with the Board deciding that horses have to compete in a lead up mile race to be considered for selection, with one exception. Don't have a problem with that exception being the current title holder and NZ FFA winner. Not sure how the conditions allow two exceptions though. Maybe I'm misreading the conditions?

[Just Saying]

Weather / barrier draw permitting , does anyone think that Smoken Up's 1:48.5 Australasian record will be lowered in the Miracle Mile?
Absolutely a big chance.

[The Rainmaker]

I too would love to see Terror To Love in there however simply to say because he won the NZ Cup he should be there is rubbish. Smokin Up is a obvious choice he has ran the fastest mile down our way, he has proved time and time again he's a champion. Terror To Love has raced over the sprint distance about 4-5 times and won once in about a 58 mile rate.
Yes in a perfect world all the above horses would be in and what a race it would be but it is a invitation race and if there is no invitation coming your way then so be it. For 20 years I waited for a invitation to join the All Blacks - it never arrived. As Paul Court said, "I am gutted". :mad:


Wow, an unbiased NZ'er, now I've seen everything! Could not agree with your comments more Ray. Yes Terror to Love beat Smoken Up in the NZ Cup, but the NZ cup is a full field of runners over 3200 metres in comparison to the 8 starters and 1609 metres of the Miracle Mile, they're chalk and cheese. Smoken Up is the defending Miracle Mile champion, and is the only horse to break a 1.50 mile in winning in the southern hemisphere. For anyone to think Terror To Love deserved a invite over Smoken up has no idea.

At the end of the day I don't really see the big deal here. Terror To Love will race in the Cordina Sprint on Saturday night, if he wins, he gets an invite into the mile, if he runs a place, he will be considered for an invite, and if he misses a place it'll prove Dumesney and the rest of the NSWHRC board correct in not issuing him an invite in the first place.

[triplev123]

It's an Australian race. NZ have no automatic right to an invite. If they invite Soken Up then they have invited the winner of NZ's leading sprint race to their leading sprint race. It just so happens that he is the fastest sprinter in this part of the world. That leaves them with more options for invites now with 3 automatic invite races.

[VVV] Tony, are you sure you're a Kiwi? :rolleyes:

[David Summers]

if he wins, he gets an invite into the mile, if he runs a place, he will be considered for an invite, and if he misses a place it'll prove Dumesney and the rest of the NSWHRC board correct in not issuing him an invite in the first place.

You're right Eric. I don't think that NSWHRC can lose , no matter how TTL runs in the Cordina Sprint. BTW , I hope he wins or if not , is invited anyway :-) He is real class.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Wow, an unbiased NZ'er, now I've seen everything! Could not agree with your comments more Ray. Yes Terror to Love beat Smoken Up in the NZ Cup, but the NZ cup is a full field of runners over 3200 metres in comparison to the 8 starters and 1609 metres of the Miracle Mile, they're chalk and cheese. Smoken Up is the defending Miracle Mile champion, and is the only horse to break a 1.50 mile in winning in the southern hemisphere. For anyone to think Terror To Love deserved a invite over Smoken up has no idea.

At the end of the day I don't really see the big deal here. Terror To Love will race in the Cordina Sprint on Saturday night, if he wins, he gets an invite into the mile, if he runs a place, he will be considered for an invite, and if he misses a place it'll prove Dumesney and the rest of the NSWHRC board correct in not issuing him an invite in the first place.
What? You've totally contradicted yourself there. Smoken Up has ran 2nd s and a 3rd at his last three attempts at the NZ Cup and is the fastest horse in the Southern Hemishere. How is that chalk and cheese? Both TTL and SU should have immediately received an invite after the NZ Cup. It would be a travisty if TTL loses on Sturday night and misses a start in the Miracle Mile. What will NSWHRC do then?

[The Rainmaker]

What? You've totally contradicted yourself there. Smoken Up has ran 2nd s and a 3rd at his last three attempts at the NZ Cup and is the fastest horse in the Southern Hemishere. How is that chalk and cheese? Both TTL and SU should have immediately received an invite after the NZ Cup. It would be a travisty if TTL loses on Sturday night and misses a start in the Miracle Mile. What will NSWHRC do then?


I dont see how I have contradicted myself at all. A 3200m standing start race to a 1609m mobile race is chalk and cheese is anyones language. Smoken Up is brilliant enough and adaptable enough to be competitive in the top class over both starts types and distances, his record shows that. However Terror To Love's records show he has only won the one race over a mile, and all his recent form is over standing start races over 2400m +, so why should that constitute an automatic invite for the Miracle Mile? They don't give an invite to the Melbourne Cup winner in the thoroughbred world to compete in the Cathay Pacific Hong Kong sprint.

I hope he is as good over the mile as you think he may be because the Miracle Mile could do with an X factor and a NZ representative for some more excitment, but I can hardly see how it would be a travesty if he missed a place in the Cordina sprint on Saturday and failed to gain an invite. If the horse cant place against that field on Saturday night in the Cordina sprint then how the hell can it win the Miracle Mile against a stronger field the following week?

[triplev123]

If they decided to drive Terror To Love a bit 'ugly' over the Mile he would be something to contend with...I've no doubt about that. Genuine stayers always are.

[The Rainmaker]

Yeah if he gains a start I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the mix. A long straight and fast pace will ensure everything gets their chance. Not trying to get the NZ'ers here off side with my posts above, but I think it was the right call not to issue an invite to him soley on his NZ cup win, I'm not for a second doubting the horse's ability itself. For what its worth I think he'll place on Saturday night and gain an invite, therefore a lot of conjecture here over nothing.

[Just Saying]

If they decided to drive Terror To Love a bit 'ugly' over the Mile he would be something to contend with...I've no doubt about that. Genuine stayers always are.
Does he have any open age form in fast run races?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I dont see how I have contradicted myself at all. A 3200m standing start race to a 1609m mobile race is chalk and cheese is anyones language. Smoken Up is brilliant enough and adaptable enough to be competitive in the top class over both starts types and distances, his record shows that. However Terror To Love's records show he has only won the one race over a mile, and all his recent form is over standing start races over 2400m +, so why should that constitute an automatic invite for the Miracle Mile? They don't give an invite to the Melbourne Cup winner in the thoroughbred world to compete in the Cathay Pacific Hong Kong sprint.

I hope he is as good over the mile as you think he may be because the Miracle Mile could do with an X factor and a NZ representative for some more excitment, but I can hardly see how it would be a travesty if he missed a place in the Cordina sprint on Saturday and failed to gain an invite. If the horse cant place against that field on Saturday night in the Cordina sprint then how the hell can it win the Miracle Mile against a stronger field the following week?
Of course a 3200m standing start is different to a 1609m mobile! But the same horses run in these 2 types of races, unlike the thoroughbreds. And yes, he should give a good account of himself on Saturday night, if not win it. But what if he gets skittled. Does NSWHRC make hippocrites of themselves and put him in anyway?

[Just Saying]

And what about Highview Tommy? His run in the NZ Cup was actually more impressive than TTL's. No clamouring for a run for him?

[MasterK]

TTL may have only won one 1609m race but you must remember he is only 4. Smoken Up is what 10? how many attempts has he had at running over the mile unlike TTL whos only had a few

[p plater]

TTL may have only won one 1609m race but you must remember he is only 4. Smoken Up is what 10? how many attempts has he had at running over the mile unlike TTL whos only had a few

Looking at Smoken Up's record at Menangle Park over the mile, it appears he's had 7 starts for 5 wins and 2 2nds. All bar one in group 1 status races.
He has 4 sub 1.51 wins including the 1.48.5 at his last start there..........No wonder the Club wants him there

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93953

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93953
Came here to post that.

Top marks by NSWHRC to come out and say that.

Makes some posters in here look silly.

[Just Saying]

So when the NSWHRC agree with you they are right and when they disagree with you they are wrong? They wanted the best horses to compete in more than just the miracle mile. They achieved that goal.

[eliteblood]

NSWHRC are putting up $500,000. They could simply invite 8 pacers to turn up on the Saturday and have a one-off event (as they have in the past) or they can try and build a carnival around the race and encourage the good class horses to race in NSW in the weeks leading up to the race (ie. promote harness racing in NSW)
As a result Sydney fans have had a chance to see Mister Feelgood, Washakie, Lisagain, Raglan, Karloo Mick, Be Good Johnny and now Terror to Love all racing to earn a spot in the MM. NSWHRC were probably unlucky that Auckland Reactor ran into problems otherwise I expect he would have also been here.
It was a very impressive win by TTL but there is no way that he would be seeded more highly at this stage of his career then Smoken Up or ITMQ. The directors made the right call and, despite the whingeing, they got the right outcome with TTL lining up in the Cordina Sprint on Friday night.
I strongly support the NSWHRC move. Basically, if you want a shot at our money then come and help promote the sport in NSW. If not, stay at home like Bitobliss and Melpark Major have.
I hope they do the same again next year when the prizemoney is set to go at $750,000. The only change I would make is that the field should be made up totally of horses that competed in the designated NSW lead up races.

[Just Saying]

Excellent post Trevor!

[mango]

Hi Trevor
(ie. Promote Harness Racing in n.s.w ) if this is the case and they want to promote it all good and well so why did they change the Inter format and let other states run heats if they are trying to promote Harness Racing in n.s.w.

[eliteblood]

Hi Trevor
(ie. Promote Harness Racing in n.s.w ) if this is the case and they want to promote it all good and well so why did they change the Inter format and let other states run heats if they are trying to promote Harness Racing in n.s.w.

I don't know. I think the same logic should apply to the ID.

[bbd]

NSWHRC are putting up $500,000. They could simply invite 8 pacers to turn up on the Saturday and have a one-off event (as they have in the past) or they can try and build a carnival around the race and encourage the good class horses to race in NSW in the weeks leading up to the race (ie. promote harness racing in NSW)
As a result Sydney fans have had a chance to see Mister Feelgood, Washakie, Lisagain, Raglan, Karloo Mick, Be Good Johnny and now Terror to Love all racing to earn a spot in the MM. NSWHRC were probably unlucky that Auckland Reactor ran into problems otherwise I expect he would have also been here.
It was a very impressive win by TTL but there is no way that he would be seeded more highly at this stage of his career then Smoken Up or ITMQ. The directors made the right call and, despite the whingeing, they got the right outcome with TTL lining up in the Cordina Sprint on Friday night.
I strongly support the NSWHRC move. Basically, if you want a shot at our money then come and help promote the sport in NSW. If not, stay at home like Bitobliss and Melpark Major have.
I hope they do the same again next year when the prizemoney is set to go at $750,000. The only change I would make is that the field should be made up totally of horses that competed in the designated NSW lead up races.

I agree totally.

One thing I would like though. There is a notion that horses competing in the Cordina Sprint (i.e one week before the MM) don't have enough time to fully recover from a hard run and if they make the final field there is nothing left in the tank. Why not bring the whole thing forward one week and program a FFA (or 2) on what is now the Cordina sprint night. That way all the qualified horses can either rest or compete in the FFA. Either way there should be no complaints.

[triplev123]

NSWHRC are putting up $500,000. They could simply invite 8 pacers to turn up on the Saturday and have a one-off event (as they have in the past) or they can try and build a carnival around the race and encourage the good class horses to race in NSW in the weeks leading up to the race (ie. promote harness racing in NSW)
As a result Sydney fans have had a chance to see Mister Feelgood, Washakie, Lisagain, Raglan, Karloo Mick, Be Good Johnny and now Terror to Love all racing to earn a spot in the MM. NSWHRC were probably unlucky that Auckland Reactor ran into problems otherwise I expect he would have also been here.
It was a very impressive win by TTL but there is no way that he would be seeded more highly at this stage of his career then Smoken Up or ITMQ. The directors made the right call and, despite the whingeing, they got the right outcome with TTL lining up in the Cordina Sprint on Friday night.
I strongly support the NSWHRC move. Basically, if you want a shot at our money then come and help promote the sport in NSW. If not, stay at home like Bitobliss and Melpark Major have.
I hope they do the same again next year when the prizemoney is set to go at $750,000. The only change I would make is that the field should be made up totally of horses that competed in the designated NSW lead up races.


[VVV] CAN I GET A WITNESS. TESTIFY BROTHER TREVOR! AMEN.
I also strongly support the way the NSWHRC have handled this. Expanding the impact of the Mircale Mile by way of genuine emphasis being placed on the lead up/associated events means that the Industry, the betting public & the fans can see these top shelf horses compete more than just once can only be a good thing surely. I also agree about the make-up of next year's MM field. If you don't show up and compete in the lead up/associated events then you don't get a start in the big one, simple as that. No discussion, no correspondence entered into.
Btw, I'm thrilled to hear ITMQ is on his way. I expect that he'll really shake things up.

[triplev123]

Does he have any open age form in fast run races?

[VVV] I'm somewhat ashamed to say that I don't know Scott and I probably should.
Even if he doesn't have any form in mile scampers your eyes would tell you, certainly my eyes tell me, that based on the way he finished off the NZ Cup, he is going to be in there swinging them & swinging them hard at the end of a fast mile. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he can go to the top & cut the mile ala Smoken Up's 1:48 & a piece but I certainly do think he can close hard off just about any front end pace save that of a Jet Engine. Interestingly, if TTL and ITMQ go through to the MM & there's a hot pace off the front and they happen to position up anywhere within striking distance turning for home, man oh man that's going to be a stretch drive for the ages. Gentlemen in the Southern Hemisphere shall think themselves accurs'd they were not there and hold their manhoods cheap. ;)

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

NSWHRC are putting up $500,000. They could simply invite 8 pacers to turn up on the Saturday and have a one-off event (as they have in the past) or they can try and build a carnival around the race and encourage the good class horses to race in NSW in the weeks leading up to the race (ie. promote harness racing in NSW)
As a result Sydney fans have had a chance to see Mister Feelgood, Washakie, Lisagain, Raglan, Karloo Mick, Be Good Johnny and now Terror to Love all racing to earn a spot in the MM. NSWHRC were probably unlucky that Auckland Reactor ran into problems otherwise I expect he would have also been here.
It was a very impressive win by TTL but there is no way that he would be seeded more highly at this stage of his career then Smoken Up or ITMQ. The directors made the right call and, despite the whingeing, they got the right outcome with TTL lining up in the Cordina Sprint on Friday night.
I strongly support the NSWHRC move. Basically, if you want a shot at our money then come and help promote the sport in NSW. If not, stay at home like Bitobliss and Melpark Major have.
I hope they do the same again next year when the prizemoney is set to go at $750,000. The only change I would make is that the field should be made up totally of horses that competed in the designated NSW lead up races.
Nobody has said TTL should have been invited before or seeded higher than ITMQ or SU. But the nz cup run, should have got him an invite. The NSWHRC are being bloody minded for the sake of a lead up race. And they're probably going to invite TTL regardless of where he runs on Saturday anyway.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I agree totally.

One thing I would like though. There is a notion that horses competing in the Cordina Sprint (i.e one week before the MM) don't have enough time to fully recover from a hard run and if they make the final field there is nothing left in the tank. Why not bring the whole thing forward one week and program a FFA (or 2) on what is now the Cordina sprint night. That way all the qualified horses can either rest or compete in the FFA. Either way there should be no complaints.

Depends if they ran in the NZ Cup or not.

[eliteblood]

Nobody has said TTL should have been invited before or seeded higher than ITMQ or SU. But the nz cup run, should have got him an invite. The NSWHRC are being bloody minded for the sake of a lead up race. And they're probably going to invite TTL regardless of where he runs on Saturday anyway.

I believe they are "spending" their money wisely and getting maximum benefit for their sponsors and the NSW industry in general.
As a matter of interest, did Sushi Sushi receive an automatic invitation into the Jewels final based on the strength of his Vic Derby win ?
Why not ?

[triplev123]

The NSWHRC are being bloody minded for the sake of a lead up race.

[VVV] Hmmmm. Can anyone say Harness Jewels criteria? That's a bit rich Leigh.
Take a whack at the NSWHRC for their approach to the MM Field selection but turn a blind eye to arguably the biggest exclusionary one-goer there is. How come Paul Sequenzia and Freddy Taiba's horse didn't get a nice please come over & compete in NZ letter from HRNZ? I didn't read anything of you asking that question earlier this year. Sushi didn't get a letter. Must still be on old mate Ed's desk. :confused:

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

[VVV] Hmmmm. Can anyone say Harness Jewels criteria? That's a bit rich Leigh.
Take a whack at the NSWHRC for their approach to the MM Field selection but turn a blind eye to arguably the biggest exclusionary one-goer there is. How come Paul Sequenzia and Freddy Taiba's horse didn't get a nice please come over & compete in NZ letter from HRNZ? I didn't read anything of you asking that question earlier this year. Sushi didn't get a letter.
Didn't realise the Harness Jewels was an invitation. Also didn't realise we were playing tit for tat! Perhaps they wanted him to come over a week earlier and run in a lead up race. I'll get on the blower and find out for you if you want?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I believe they are "spending" their money wisely and getting maximum benefit for their sponsors and the NSW industry in general.
As a matter of interest, did Sushi Sushi receive an automatic invitation into the Jewels final based on the strength of his Vic Derby win ?
Why not ?

Listen we could both disagree and argue till were red in the face. I just dont understand why they would risk NOT having the best pacers assembled in the southern hemishere for the sake of a meaning less lead up race. And I say meaningless in terms of there being only 1 (excluding TTL) horse with a realistic chance of winning the MM.

[triplev123]

You're missing the point Leigh. It's the whole mindset. The inference, the sense of entitlement.
It's all restriction of trade & exclusionary practices & it's all this horse deserves this and that horse deserves something else and so on when it's a case of NZ to AUS...but when it's back the other way, well apparently...that's a whole different species altogether?????
The Harness Jewels criteria stipulate that ONLY NZ earnings will be taken into account, effectively forcing any Oz aspirants to forego their own at home program and race solely in NZ in order to accumulate enough $ to make the final, the top however many going through. It's exclusionary by default & everyone knows it.
The MM conditions changed in order to encourage greater participation in the lead-up races & every man & their dog have long been aware of this. Wins in races other than those stipulated DO NOT automatically engender a slot in the field for the big one. That in and of itself is LESS exclusionary than the Harness Jewels because MM aspirants only have to compete in 1 or 2 designated lead-up events....but of course, it appears you've chosen to overlook that fact.
Get on the phone if you can. Ask Ed to check his desk for Sushi's invite.
Maybe Frank Marrion forgot to post it? He's in the HRNZ Mail Room these days isn't he? Licking stamps with former PM Helen Clark's image on them. Mmmmmmm. Nice. All that Lefty goodness.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

You're missing the point Leigh. It's the whole mindset. The inference, the sence of entitlement.
It's all restriction of trade & exclusionary practices & it's all this horse deserves this and that horse deserves something else and so on when it's a case of NZ to AUS...but when it's back the other way, well apparently...that's a whole different species altogether?????
The Harness Jewels criteria stipulate that ONLY NZ earnings will be taken into account, effectively forcing any Oz aspirants to forego their own at home program and race solely in NZ in order to accumulate enough $ to make the final, the top however many going through. It's exclusionary by default & everyone knows it.
The MM conditions changed in order to encourage greater participation in the lead-up races & every man & their dog have long been aware of this. Wins in races other than those stipulated DO NOT automatically engender a slot in the field for the big one. That in and of itself is LESS exclusionary than the Harness Jewels because MM aspirants only have to compete in 1 or 2 designated lead-up events....but of course, it appears you've chosen to overlook that fact.
Get on the phone if you can. Ask Ed to check his desk for Sushi's invite.
Maybe Frank Marrion forgot to post it? He's in the HRNZ Mail Room these days isn't he? Licking stamps with former PM Helen Clark's image on them. Mmmmmmm. Nice. All that Lefty goodness.
Well if i've missed the point (what was it again?), then you've lost your page in the book. What the hell has the Harness Jewells got to do with the MM. OK then, lets just stop all NZers from racing here. And while were at it. Lets deport all kiwi's as well.

[triplev123]

Well if i've missed the point (what was it again?), then you've lost your page in the book. What the hell has the Harness Jewells got to do with the MM. OK then, lets just stop all NZers from racing here. And while were at it. Lets deport all kiwi's as well.


[VVV] A straw man is a component of an argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) and is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his words or by means of [false] assumptions.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Generally, the straw man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point of absurdity. This exaggerated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggerated) or distorted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion) statement is thus easily argued against, but is a misrepresentation of the opponent's actual statement.

With thanks to some on-line terminology explanation thingo.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

[VVV] A straw man is a component of an argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) and is an informal fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, twisting his words or by means of [false] assumptions.
To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Generally, the straw man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point of absurdity. This exaggerated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggerated) or distorted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion) statement is thus easily argued against, but is a misrepresentation of the opponent's actual statement.

With thanks to some on-line terminology explanation thingo.
Googling again I see. Classic VVV.

[triplev123]

Why re-write Shakespeare?
Why re-invent the wheel?
Have a whack for a piece Leigh. I have to put the rug rats in the bath & feed them. Will be back in a couple of hours. (hopefully)

Regards

Jaimie

[aussiebreno]

NSWHRC are putting up $500,000. They could simply invite 8 pacers to turn up on the Saturday and have a one-off event (as they have in the past) or they can try and build a carnival around the race and encourage the good class horses to race in NSW in the weeks leading up to the race (ie. promote harness racing in NSW)
So the AFL should rig the Semi Final to make it Collingwood V Essendon to support a 'carnival of big crowds' rather than wait for Pies V Bombers to meet in the Grand final? The Miracle Mile is the big event here. Not the Cordina Sprint, Newcastle Mile or Coca Cola Amatil.
As a result Sydney fans have had a chance to see Mister Feelgood, Washakie, Lisagain, Raglan, Karloo Mick, Be Good Johnny and now Terror to Love all racing to earn a spot in the MM Which differs from last year how? Washakie won the Cordina beating BGJ. Karloo Mick would start in Sydney regardless... NSWHRC were probably unlucky that Auckland Reactor ran into problems otherwise I expect he would have also been here.
It was a very impressive win by TTL but there is no way that he would be seeded more highly at this stage of his career then Smoken Up or ITMQ. The directors made the right call and, despite the whingeing, they got the right outcome with TTL lining up in the Cordina Sprint on Friday night. I'm not begrudging those two a spot; but on past precedent and the contentiously worded criteria it is hard to fathom how Smoken Up got in ahead of Terror To Love. Wriggle room in the criteria is the only reason. If the criteria was wrote up more strictly and black and white rather than with shades of grey Terror To Love WOULD be in the field and it would be Smoken Up in the Cordina. Smoken Up in the Cordina...you think TTL is a good advertisment for NSWHRC imagine if Smoken Up was there...
I strongly support the NSWHRC move. Basically, if you want a shot at our money then come and help promote the sport in NSW. If not, stay at home like Bitobliss and Melpark Major have. I agree with the format they have made this year. The point isn't that the winner of the Little Brown Jug should get an invite because the race is worth heaps and has a nice name the point is under the guidelines the vast majority of people would have assumed (rightly or wrongly - as above I've wrote about the wording of the conditions) that in all likelihood the NZ Cup winner would get an invite. He didn't. But to make matters worse the horse that ran 2nd did get an invite. You can't tell me if you owned Terror To Love you wouldn't be pulling your hair out and have started scratching your scalp of your freshly bald head trying to figure it out.
I hope they do the same again next year when the prizemoney is set to go at $750,000. The only change I would make is that the field should be made up totally of horses that competed in the designated NSW lead up races.


I believe they are "spending" their money wisely and getting maximum benefit for their sponsors and the NSW industry in general.
As a matter of interest, did Sushi Sushi receive an automatic invitation into the Jewels final based on the strength of his Vic Derby win ?
Why not ?
I don't know. Why didn't a C2 winner at Bunbury get an automatic invite into the C3 the next week at Gloucester Park?

Regardless, can't wait for the race. Terror To Love or no Terror To Love.

[Just Saying]

[VVV] Even if he doesn't have any form in mile scampers your eyes would tell you, certainly my eyes tell me, that based on the way he finished off the NZ Cup, he is going to be in there swinging them & swinging them hard at the end of a fast mile.
I ask because I have a somewhat unusual take on his recent performance. Both his recent impressive wins have been in slowly run races. In one a nice but not superstar horse called Highview Tommy also charged from the back of the field with him. At his other recent run in a modestly run race where the second to last quarter was an absolute gut buster he only struggled up the straight. So I'm suggesting that although he may be the next superstar that AS OF YET he hasn't proven himself in an absolute Smoken Up, Mr. Feelgood, TMQ balls to the wall sort of race. Happy to be proven wrong because he is an exciting talent.

[Just Saying]

Regardless, can't wait for the race. Terror To Love or no Terror To Love.
Should be an absolute barn burner!

[teecee]

You just ignited my curiosity.
Invites are not part of the jewels modus operandi BUT Sushi Sushi surely qualified for a spot based on the race conditions...i.e. he must have earned enuff $$$$$ when he was in Auckland beating that other horse...what's is name...and co.
How come he didn't come to the jewels.
Like I say he didn't need an invite, he had earned his place on the track...not the boardroom.!!

[triplev123]

I ask because I have a somewhat unusual take on his recent performance. Both his recent impressive wins have been in slowly run races. In one a nice but not superstar horse called Highview Tommy also charged from the back of the field with him. At his other recent run in a modestly run race where the second to last quarter was an absolute gut buster he only struggled up the straight. So I'm suggesting that although he may be the next superstar that AS OF YET he hasn't proven himself in an absolute Smoken Up, Mr. Feelgood, TMQ balls to the wall sort of race. Happy to be proven wrong because he is an exciting talent.

[VVV] That makes a lot of sense Scott. We'll know soon enough. Saturday at Menangle looms large.

[aussiebreno]

Smoken Up
Im Themightyquinn
Raglan
Franco Jamar
Mr Feelgood
Terror To Love

Those are the only 6 that deserve to run.
Bitobliss one could argue for but the rules are there and will not get in.
Otherwise no-one else deserves a spot.
The race would be better with just those 6 than an extra 2. IMTQ able to sit at worst 3 lengths off the leader wins?
If they want to run 8 Garnet River (which would at least give Aust breeders a representative) and Our Malabar will get in I suppose...

[triplev123]

I agree. Go with 6.

[triplev123]

Karloo Mick + Lisagain. That's the 8. Hayes just announced it on Sky.

[mango]

Lisagain and Karloo Mick take 7th and 8th spots.

[aussiebreno]

Karloo Mick + Lisagain. That's the 6. Hayes just announced it on Sky.

What the hell. Lisagain beaten 10m by Franco Jamar then beaten 15m tonight.

Karloo Mick I can deal with because he was never going to sprint down in 26.8 if they run along the whole race he might get close. But thats pretty subjective so he doesn't really deserve a spot either.

They may as well erase the clause where it says they can go with 6 runners because it will never happen. If ever there was a year for it; especially under the new conditions; this was it. Did they pull Karloo Mick and Lisagain out of a lottery of the also rans????

[Don Corleone]

Right with you brenno. Didn't need the last 2.

[aussiebreno]

Right with you brenno. Didn't need the last 2.

Now watch them run the quinella lol

[mango]

I think they need to look at the selection criteria, they should just pick the winner's from the N.Z Cup, Newcastle mile and one sprint race at Menangle and then select the other 5 horses from anywhere they want. But in saying that they should of just went with 6 like they can but that will never happen as it will effect turnover bigtime so they may as well throw that clause straight out the window.

[triplev123]

I'd dispense with the invites completely and designate it that if you don't race in the lead up events at Menangle then you don't get in. Simple as that. Cut & dried.
Remember the next time around they'll be going for $750,000 & when that sort of kanga is on offer then they'll come from far and wide to take their shots, no risk whatsoever.

[aussiebreno]

I think they need to look at the selection criteria, they should just pick the winner's from the N.Z Cup, Newcastle mile and one sprint race at Menangle and then select the other 5 horses from anywhere they want. But in saying that they should of just went with 6 like they can but that will never happen as it will effect turnover bigtime so they may as well throw that clause straight out the window.
I think the way they went this year with the concrete unless you are a superstar come to Menangle or you are not getting a run is pretty much spot on - not many people let alone the NSWHRC directors are export form analysts and there is always going to be conjecture over their selections.
NZ Cup they should make a definite in though; I mean its a tough to ask them to run in their Cup then either run or make trainers bypass the FFA then have to come over here and qualifty like Terror To Love. Most of the time the winner gets invited anyway (similar to Newcastle Cup where it was basically an unofficial auto invite) and acquits themself well.
The NZ Cup and the three auto invite races gives 4 spots auto invite. Those auto invite races should strengthen up as time goes on and this year they were all marginally stronger than in past years.
The discretionary 'superstar' invite is always only going to go 1 or 2 horses. The last 5 years it would have been 1 to BAF; BGJ would have got one about 4 and 5 years ago and Monkey King would have got one last year. This year it was only Smoken Up and IMTQ.
So that's 6 spots.
Then if you've got a horse who ran 2nd in the Newcastle Mile and 2nd in the Cordina he gets in. But otherwise its too hard to judge how Bitobliss and Melpark Major would stack up against Karloo Mick and Lisagain and the strict criteria at least everybody knows why they got in. Even under the strict criteria you've got people on forums saying those two shouldnt be in lol!

[Just Saying]

The good thing about Lisagain getting in is that it may stop the Kiwi's from sooking because clearly all the NZ Cup winner would have to do is turn up for the Cordina and it will be selected.

[mango]

I'd dispense with the invites completely and designate it that if you don't race in the lead up events at Menangle then you don't get in. Simple as that. Cut & dried.
Remember the next time around they'll be going for $750,000 & when that sort of kanga is on offer then they'll come from far and wide to take their shots, no risk whatsoever.

It is great money but the Inter is worth more and there gone the complete opposite way, if horses can win a heat in there state to get a start in the Inter whats the difference in a horse winning a race like the N.Z cup and getting a start in the Miracle Mile. Having 3 race's with automatic invites will attract great fields and great racing and with 5 invite's to be handed out they would have the discretion to either invite horses who did not compete in either 3 race's or they can if they wish.

[nat]

I agree with you triple maybe 4 sprint heats over 2 night at menangle make it clear cut, at least they have 2 of the best three horses in Australia in the race. Bitobliss is a top horse in the making and they have missed the boat on that one I've seen him race a few times live and he could beat all bar Smoken Up on his own merits at this stage of his development. This is a very average field only 2 horses will attempt to race their normal race ITMQ and Smoken Up the rest will base the tactics around these 2 and be opportunistic at that non are tough enough to take Smoken Up on and who could out sprint ITMQ?

1) ITMQ
2) Smoken Up
3) Who Cares

[aussiebreno]

It is great money but the Inter is worth more and there gone the complete opposite way, if horses can win a heat in there state to get a start in the Inter whats the difference in a horse winning a race like the N.Z cup and getting a start in the Miracle Mile. Having 3 race's with automatic invites will attract great fields and great racing and with 5 invite's to be handed out they would have the discretion to either invite horses who did not compete in either 3 race's or they can if they wish.
Because while 2 or 3 invites might be clearcut they invariably stuff up with the final 1 or 2! With more auto-invite races it means the strength of those races are stronger and the Rohan Homes and Special Alberts are unlikely to win. With the NZ Cup an auto invite race Terror to Love would have already been in the field and with 5 discretionary invites I daresay Mr Feelgood would have got one of those. Which leaves you guessed it; Garnet River the Cordina Sprint winner getting a berth in the Miracle Mile! Not right!.
I guess what I am trying to say is discretionary invite the one or two superstars (eg Smoken Up and ITMQ) but leave the fringe horses (TTL, Franco Jamar, Raglan, Mr Feelgood) to win in an auto-invite race. Then the last couple spots are always contentious but with the concrete clause where they say horses who ran in the auto-invite races no-one can complain about Bitobliss or someone not being in the field. Whereas in the past it was left to decide between MMC and Melpark Major. And I am sure in years to come these lead up races will become slightly stronger (we could have had Lanercost, Bitobliss, David Hercules, Melpark Major, Auckland Reactor in these fields) and we might get hard luck stories where a horse runs 2nd in two lead ups but fails to win one so its a pretty obvious invite.
Otherwise who is to say Bitobliss deserves a spot in front of David Hercules or Lisagain. You can end up getting the wrong horse in the field; at least under this years criteria if the wrong horse gets in the field there is a concrete reason and everybody understands why - there is nothing stopping Bitobliss or someone else running in Sydney if they thought they were capable of a Miracle Mile - and hey a $77500 race is pretty appealing too.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17406

Pretty good imo. It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.

Don't know why they are persisting with clause G after this year though.

[Danno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17406

Pretty good imo. It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.

Don't know why they are persisting with clause G after this year though.

Certainly better Brenno, however I reckon clause c) could have given themselves 3 discretionary entries, might not want use all three but the option would be there.

[Just Saying]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17406

It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.
Hopefully not! Pick the best two horses. I don't think the NZ Cup should be seen as a heat.

[A BIT DUSTY]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17406

Pretty good imo. It's pretty much alluded the NZ Cup winner will get an invite so hopefully that happens in the future.

Don't know why they are persisting with clause G after this year though.

Gee I hope not
How could you hope the NZ Cup winner would get an automatic start after the disgraceful performance of Terror To Love last year , can someone remind Brendan were he finished .
Guaranteeing the winner of a 2 mile stand start race a place in 1mile mobile is so stupid it begs belief.
The MM is a sprint race the NZ CUP is a staying and sure there have been plenty of great horses in the past that can perform just as well at both distances ,their are certainly a lot of good horses that can't.( last year being a perfect example) Can you imagine the Melbourne Cup winner being given an automatic invite to the Oakleigh Plate.
Iv'e gone back and read all the post on this thread and I can't believe the PUSH for a horse who virtually had no mile form ( Terror To Love) to be included in front of one of the best mile horses we have ever seen (Smoken Up)
I notice all these experts have been very quiet about this subject since the MM.
Well Brendan. Leigh, any comments now.???

[aussiebreno]

Hopefully not! Pick the best two horses. I don't think the NZ Cup should be seen as a heat.
It says if travel is a concern; I think NZ and WA horses would get the first look in. Most NZ Cup have been invited in the past and acquitted themself well.

Gee I hope not
How could you hope the NZ Cup winner would get an automatic start after the disgraceful performance of Terror To Love last year , can someone remind Brendan were he finished .
Guaranteeing the winner of a 2 mile stand start race a place in 1mile mobile is so stupid it begs belief.
The MM is a sprint race the NZ CUP is a staying and sure there have been plenty of great horses in the past that can perform just as well at both distances ,their are certainly a lot of good horses that can't.( last year being a perfect example) Can you imagine the Melbourne Cup winner being given an automatic invite to the Oakleigh Plate.
Iv'e gone back and read all the post on this thread and I can't believe the PUSH for a horse who virtually had no mile form ( Terror To Love) to be included in front of one of the best mile horses we have ever seen (Smoken Up)
I notice all these experts have been very quiet about this subject since the MM.
Well Brendan. Leigh, any comments now.???
In Harness racing the different distances mean a hell of a lot less than in galloping and the M Cup, Oakleigh Plate suggestion was ridiculous - they have virtually 2 different breeding industries and breed some horses to sprint and other horses to stay. We don't do that at all and the form in harness racing pretty much correlates over all distances.
Terror To Love had virtually no form? Winner of NZ Cup beating Smoken Up and then 2nd in the qualifying race; beating Lisagain and Karloo Mick.
3 back pegs is starting to be the place to be. Although Villagem hasn't had much luck at the barriers he is still to win a race since flying home for 3rd from 3 pegs. Karloo Mick is in the same predicament.
Tell me whats better form. Winning the NZ Cup or being beat by Say Gday Lombo?
Running 2nd beaten 8m or running 9th beaten 25m?
Lisagain ran 2nd in a the Coca Cola Amatil but still the failure in the Cordina should have put a line through it.
Terror To Love obviously went well, well below its best to be beaten 40m. The run the week before tells you it is a much better horse than that. So good on HRNSW for the new travel condition!

P.S I was cheering for Karloo Mick once he loomed in the Miracle Mile, I have nothing against him, but had any other horse had his form going into the race I don't think it would have been selected.

[A BIT DUSTY]

It says if travel is a concern; I think NZ and WA horses would get the first look in. Most NZ Cup have been invited in the past and acquitted themself well.

In Harness racing the different distances mean a hell of a lot less than in galloping and the M Cup, Oakleigh Plate suggestion was ridiculous - they have virtually 2 different breeding industries and breed some horses to sprint and other horses to stay. We don't do that at all and the form in harness racing pretty much correlates over all distances.
Terror To Love had virtually no form? Winner of NZ Cup beating Smoken Up and then 2nd in the qualifying race; beating Lisagain and Karloo Mick.
3 back pegs is starting to be the place to be. Although Villagem hasn't had much luck at the barriers he is still to win a race since flying home for 3rd from 3 pegs. Karloo Mick is in the same predicament.
Tell me whats better form. Winning the NZ Cup or being beat by Say Gday Lombo?
Running 2nd beaten 8m or running 9th beaten 25m?
Lisagain ran 2nd in a the Coca Cola Amatil but still the failure in the Cordina should have put a line through it.
Terror To Love obviously went well, well below its best to be beaten 40m. The run the week before tells you it is a much better horse than that. So good on HRNSW for the new travel condition!

P.S I was cheering for Karloo Mick once he loomed in the Miracle Mile, I have nothing against him, but had any other horse had his form going into the race I don't think it would have been selected.


Brendan if you look again I said no mile form , To me a 1.58 best winning time is not sufficient form to get an invite.
You are right of course about the two codes being different and the Melbourne Cup, Oakliegh Plate ref was just to make a point.
The reason I don't believe you should use a stand start 2 mile race to invite MM runners goes much deeper than that.

What about a Bleeder that is struggling for form in mobile races , lobs 3 the fence in the NZ cup and gets a split late and wins , what chance does it have in the MM (when it's got to come off a fast gate) and I actually think that could be a factor in T T L this year.( just my own observation)

Over the years there have been plenty of very good horses that look like world beaters sitting back of a slow pace and can unleash a sensational last 400mtrs , but when the speed is on all the way they don't get sighted. That's why I believe it should up to the HRNW panel to use their discretion with a race that is so different to the MM

[aussiebreno]

Brendan if you look again I said no mile form , To me a 1.58 best winning time is not sufficient form to get an invite.
You are right of course about the two codes being different and the Melbourne Cup, Oakliegh Plate ref was just to make a point.
The reason I don't believe you should use a stand start 2 mile race to invite MM runners goes much deeper than that.

What about a Bleeder that is struggling for form in mobile races , lobs 3 the fence in the NZ cup and gets a split late and wins , what chance does it have in the MM (when it's got to come off a fast gate) and I actually think that could be a factor in T T L this year.( just my own observation)

Over the years there have been plenty of very good horses that look like world beaters sitting back of a slow pace and can unleash a sensational last 400mtrs , but when the speed is on all the way they don't get sighted. That's why I believe it should up to the HRNW panel to use their discretion with a race that is so different to the MM
They can't get it right with the discretion picks though. Make Mine Cullen, Rohan Home etc in recent years.
There is nothing stopping an out of form horse getting an easy run and winning one of the other lead ups either. Yes those other lead ups are over the mile but still the point stands.
I'm not calling for the NZ Cup to be an auto invite. But the way it was written this year I think people assumed the NZ Cup would all but get an invite and that's my main gripe. TTL wasn't going as badly as you wish to suggest. As it was he definetely earnt a spot. Now this year where it says travel I think the NZ Cup winner gets even more certainty. That is better than being in limbo land.

If you owned Terror To Love, after beating Smoken Up in a Group1 grand circuit race you would have to be confused when Smoken Up then got an invite the next day and you didn't. I'm not begrudging Smoken Up an invite, he certaintly deserved one, but TTL connections would have been absolutely filthy and wondering if they'd shagged one of the NSWHRC director wives in the hours they couldn't recall when drinking up after the Cup victory.

[A BIT DUSTY]

They can't get it right with the discretion picks though. Make Mine Cullen, Rohan Home etc in recent years.
There is nothing stopping an out of form horse getting an easy run and winning one of the other lead ups either. Yes those other lead ups are over the mile but still the point stands.
I'm not calling for the NZ Cup to be an auto invite. But the way it was written this year I think people assumed the NZ Cup would all but get an invite and that's my main gripe. TTL wasn't going as badly as you wish to suggest. As it was he definetely earnt a spot. Now this year where it says travel I think the NZ Cup winner gets even more certainty. That is better than being in limbo land.
If you owned Terror To Love, after beating Smoken Up in a Group1 grand circuit race you would have to be confused when Smoken Up then got an invite the next day and you didn't. I'm not begrudging Smoken Up an invite, he certaintly deserved one, but TTL connections would have been absolutely filthy and wondering if they'd shagged one of the NSWHRC director wives in the hours they couldn't recall when drinking up after the Cup victory.


Brendan even the Kiwis don't agree with you on this one.

I especially like Michael Guerins comment about Terror To Love having only competed in Stand Starts races so far this season http://www.nzherald.co.nz/racing/news/article.cfm?c_id=53&objectid=10766089

[aussiebreno]

The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.

Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.

Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.
Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.

But if you value Geurins opinion that much.....well I don't know what to say.

[A BIT DUSTY]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14958]The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.

Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.


What sort of lame comment is " But if you value Geurins opinion that much..... This bloke is the highest profile harness media personality in NZ and you want to dismiss him.
Funny I don't seem to remember seeing Brendan Bryce being interviewed on Sky or reading any news paper articles penned by this self appointed harness GURU.

] The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article So where a piece of vital information (that would influence a M M invite) is located in a article makes a difference You Crack me up Brendan

Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.

The point I posted that article was to show you that people that are aware of FACTS generally know more about the ins and outs of Miracle Mile selection than an Accountant from Wagga Wagga

Do you think it would not be unreasonable to want to have a look at a horse that had not raced from the Mobile in it's previous 5 strs


Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.


Has it dawned on you that it is probably because of the concerns the panel had about T.T.L that resulted in the poor MM run?????????
The horse only racing in Stand Start races is a pretty good indication that he has a problem , they have said come over have a run in a lead up race if all's well we'll give him a start.
I believe having that run out of the gate the week before has busted him ( because of his problem) and that would explain the poor MM run.

[triplev123]

Gee I hope not
How could you hope the NZ Cup winner would get an automatic start after the disgraceful performance of Terror To Love last year , can someone remind Brendan were he finished .
Guaranteeing the winner of a 2 mile stand start race a place in 1mile mobile is so stupid it begs belief.
The MM is a sprint race the NZ CUP is a staying and sure there have been plenty of great horses in the past that can perform just as well at both distances ,their are certainly a lot of good horses that can't.( last year being a perfect example) Can you imagine the Melbourne Cup winner being given an automatic invite to the Oakleigh Plate.
Iv'e gone back and read all the post on this thread and I can't believe the PUSH for a horse who virtually had no mile form ( Terror To Love) to be included in front of one of the best mile horses we have ever seen (Smoken Up)
I notice all these experts have been very quiet about this subject since the MM.
Well Brendan. Leigh, any comments now.???

[VVV] G'day Denny,
I would have liked to see them take a cut & dried show up or shut up line with the MM.
For any aspiring MM contenders, I believe that participation in the lead up races should be mandatory.
If the excellent $$$ on offer in those lead up races combined with, should they get that far, the fat end of 750k to the winner for the big one is not enough of an enticement for the best of the best to show up a week or two beforehand then you really have to wonder what is.

Rgds

Jaimie

[A BIT DUSTY]

[VVV] G'day Denny,
I would have liked to see them take a cut & dried show up or shut up line with the MM.
For any aspiring MM contenders, I believe that participation in the lead up races should be mandatory.
If the excellent $$$ on offer in those lead up races combined with, should they get that far, the fat end of 750k to the winner for the big one is not enough of an enticement for the best of the best to show up a week or two beforehand then you really have to wonder what is.

Rgds

Jaimie

Couldn't agree any more Jaimie

I have always had sympathy for the panel ( except the year they left Our Sir Vancelot out , what the f----k were they thinking) whose job it is to select the field , as it is so hard to line up horses form when they are racing in different states and Country's.

At least if they all come for the lead up races and you know prior what you have to do to get a start it takes all the controversy out of play

Cheers Denny

[aussiebreno]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14958]The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.

Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.


What sort of lame comment is " But if you value Geurins opinion that much..... This bloke is the highest profile harness media personality in NZ and you want to dismiss him.
Funny I don't seem to remember seeing Brendan Bryce being interviewed on Sky or reading any news paper articles penned by this self appointed harness GURU. Funny you say that, I have had articles published on Harnesslink thanks for your concern.
Yes Geurin has great qualifications; but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you.

] The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article So where a piece of vital information (that would influence a M M invite) is located in a article makes a difference You Crack me up Brendan
Most journos make their point towards the start of an article. If you had to choose to read one half of an article for the rest of your life would it be the first half or the second half?

Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.

The point I posted that article was to show you that people that are aware of FACTS generally know more about the ins and outs of Miracle Mile selection than an Accountant from Wagga Wagga
Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.
Do you think it would not be unreasonable to want to have a look at a horse that had not raced from the Mobile in it's previous 5 strs
No, not unreasonable. Still worthy of an invite despite this though. The Cordina where it ended up getting an invite is proof of this. But in most years past TTL would have been straight in the field and I reckon in most years coming TTL would have been invited straight away.

Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.


Has it dawned on you that it is probably because of the concerns the panel had about T.T.L that resulted in the poor MM run?????????
The horse only racing in Stand Start races is a pretty good indication that he has a problem , they have said come over have a run in a lead up race if all's well we'll give him a start.
I believe having that run out of the gate the week before has busted him ( because of his problem) and that would explain the poor MM run.
NSWHRC had none such concerns about TTL. They didnt see TTL has a negative. They saw ITMQ and Smoken Up as greater positives. NSWHRC actually came out and said they stuffed up. I think I linked that article earlier in the article.
Now I move to the last line, what I have bolded. So you agree with me on the travel clause; where travelling and starting in a lead up may hinder performance an invite will be issued earlier? Which is why I bumped this thread. Thankyou for wasting my time.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=93953
Denny if you want me to agree TTL's run was terrible.Then yes, it was a shocker (and too bad to be true). If you want me to admit I was wrong in thinking he deserved an invite to the MM, don't hold your breath. I'll put this article back up for your benefit. Oh and by the way ITMQ doesn't deserve a run in the MM this year after his Vic Cup run either then! I'm not even sure why we are trawling over this again for anyway. It is an invitation, so every year there is going to be opinions and debate. And unless you work at NSWHR, your opinion and my opinion are worth exactly the same. Even VVV's! For the record ( and it may sound like I'm contradicting myself), but I like the NSWHR having discretionary powers in who they want in the field. It has unearthed some great horses in the past Chokin, Jack Morris to name just a couple. But I still feel TTL should have got an automatic invite on his NZ Cup win.

[Just Saying]

Even VVV's!
Sacrilege!!

[aussiebreno]

I also agree its probably better black and white without the grey.

[triplev123]

The sole reason I'd like ALL of the MM contenders to have had to race in one of the lead up events is that the fans will get to see them more than just a once off, a fly in, fly out basis. These are supposed to be very best horses around & yet we only get see them face off maybe once in a blue moon.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

The sole reason I'd like ALL of the MM contenders to have had to race in one of the lead up events is that the fans will get to see them more than just a once off, a fly in, fly out basis. These are supposed to be very best horses around & yet we only get see them face off maybe once in a blue moon.
Totally agree. But sometimes that can't be achieved. Some horses just can't back up in a short time frame. And if youv'e got a 250k race in your backyard or a 50k lead up FFA in another country, what are you going to run in? Don't you think TTL running at 100% in the MM is better than what he was when he ran in it?

[triplev123]

G'day Leigh,

For mine, TTL didn't deserve a start based solely on his NZ Cup win however, once he was in, I expected a whole lot more of him than he ultimately delivered. Unless macular degeneration or glaucoma are slowly but surely claiming my eyesight, I believe he is a lot better horse than his MM effort suggested.

On the subject of disappointing efforts...and it's getting off the track a bit but nobody has hit on this bloke thus far...
Race 6, MM night, and Franco Emirate had a wrap on him the size of a block of flats but failed to deliver. Then he went around in the Cranbourne Cup and duly platzed and he did it again in the Victoria Cup. Big, strong looking bugger, seems to get over the ground so well too. What's the deal there I wonder? Not well whilst in Oz? Not as good as he was made out to be? Kiwis...Don C? Any thoughts?

[A BIT DUSTY]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14958]The horse earnt a place anyway. I think that's evidence enough he should have been invited.

Geurin was basically saying it wasn't a issue the NSWHRC didn't like Kiwis, it was an issue there was only 2 discretionary spots and Smoken Up and ITMQ deserved them and the lead races were in place well before the NZ Cup was run and won. Of course those two were in the pecking order above TTL; but if you owned TTL you would still be thinking wtf. The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article.


What sort of lame comment is " But if you value Geurins opinion that much..... This bloke is the highest profile harness media personality in NZ and you want to dismiss him.
Funny I don't seem to remember seeing Brendan Bryce being interviewed on Sky or reading any news paper articles penned by this self appointed harness GURU. Funny you say that, I have had articles published on Harnesslink thanks for your concern.
Yes Geurin has great qualifications; but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you.

] The stand start was an after thought near the end of his article So where a piece of vital information (that would influence a M M invite) is located in a article makes a difference You Crack me up Brendan
Most journos make their point towards the start of an article.

Really don't get why you posted that article anyway. If you value Geurins opinion that much he says TTL was virtually assured of a spot he just had to catch a plane to Sydney whilst he also says Raglan (the Newcastle Mile winner) did not deserve to start in a Miracle Mile.

The point I posted that article was to show you that people that are aware of FACTS generally know more about the ins and outs of Miracle Mile selection than an Accountant from Wagga Wagga
Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.
Do you think it would not be unreasonable to want to have a look at a horse that had not raced from the Mobile in it's previous 5 strs
No, not unreasonable. Still worthy of an invite despite this though. The Cordina where it ended up getting an invite is proof of this. But in most years past TTL would have been straight in the field and I reckon in most years coming TTL would have been invited straight away.

Geurin also says the race experience at Menangle would do the horse good. It obviously didn't because his run in the Cordina was well above his run in the Miracle Mile.


Has it dawned on you that it is probably because of the concerns the panel had about T.T.L that resulted in the poor MM run?????????
The horse only racing in Stand Start races is a pretty good indication that he has a problem , they have said come over have a run in a lead up race if all's well we'll give him a start.
I believe having that run out of the gate the week before has busted him ( because of his problem) and that would explain the poor MM run.
NSWHRC had none such concerns about TTL. They didnt see TTL has a negative. They saw ITMQ and Smoken Up as greater positives. NSWHRC actually came out and said they stuffed up. I think I linked that article earlier in the article.
Now I move to the last line, what I have bolded. So you agree with me on the travel clause; where travelling and starting in a lead up may hinder performance an invite will be issued earlier? Which is why I bumped this thread. Thankyou for wasting my time.

Can anyone out there HELP POOR OLD BRENDAN . I think he is struggling to comprehend simple language.

You are missing the whole crux of my point and that is
On he's currant form he had no mobile form and anyone that has half an idea about horses (and you obviously don't) would have great concern as to why that was so.
So as a precaution the panel has played it safe and said come over and have a run if he goes OK we'll issue with a start.
Now your ridiculous statement about me agreeing with on the travel clause only reinforces my already dwindling opinion of your harness knowledge.( just on that subject Brendan would you please, just for my amusement publish your expertise in training pacers) It actually proved that T T L is a horse that did not have what it takes to compete at that level, at this stage of his career

If my memory is correct he couldn't win the Cordina sprint that was not half as good a field that we had in the M.M Surely that justified the panel's decision.


How about this clanger Brendan

Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.

Is this the ramblings of a desperate man or what, since when do where you live have any bearing on your knowledge of an Industry , Brendan are you saying wayne bennett wouldn't have a clue about rugby league anywhere else in the world, or Bart Cummings wouldn't know about N.Z racing , if you think Greg Hayes would be more interested in run of the mill races here in Aus while the N.Z cup was on then your are even more ignorant than I had previously thought .( and that is saying something).

This the absolute Icing on the Cake

but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you

All your ramblings have been how hard done by Terror To Love was to not get an automatic invite .
All the article is about is why he wasn't hard done by and the reasons for it.
But in your fantasy world you come up with that conclusion THAT'L DO ME

[triplev123]

By rights I really shouldn't be happy that Breno's taking the heat from Denny now instead of me, I really shouldn't...but there is a piece of me that is somewhat relieved. I'd be lying if I said it was not so. Now if only Dan would see his way clear to line up on old mate Ringman for a piece, I'd be free as a bird. :rolleyes:

[mango]

The sole reason I'd like ALL of the MM contenders to have had to race in one of the lead up events is that the fans will get to see them more than just a once off, a fly in, fly out basis. These are supposed to be very best horses around & yet we only get see them face off maybe once in a blue moon.

Hey Triple
You say you would like to see all MM contenders have at least one race in a lead up race so the fan's get to see them more than a once off, if i recall correctly your a fan of the new Inter from 2013 which is the complete oposite which is a fly in fly out basis. May i ask why the difference of opinion on these race's.

[Danno]

I reckon lead up races should stop at 2 weeks prior to the MM. There is only a small percentage of horses that will back up 100% in 7 days after a gut busting mile.

[A BIT DUSTY]

Denny if you want me to agree TTL's run was terrible.Then yes, it was a shocker (and too bad to be true). If you want me to admit I was wrong in thinking he deserved an invite to the MM, don't hold your breath. I'll put this article back up for your benefit. Oh and by the way ITMQ doesn't deserve a run in the MM this year after his Vic Cup run either then! I'm not even sure why we are trawling over this again for anyway. It is an invitation, so every year there is going to be opinions and debate. And unless you work at NSWHR, your opinion and my opinion are worth exactly the same. Even VVV's! For the record ( and it may sound like I'm contradicting myself), but I like the NSWHR having discretionary powers in who they want in the field. It has unearthed some great horses in the past Chokin, Jack Morris to name just a couple. But I still feel TTL should have got an automatic invite on his NZ Cup win.

Hi Leigh

Please don't for one minute think i'm trying to bag T T L because that is the last thing i'm going to do , he is a very nice horse and i'm sure we'll see a lot more of him in the future.
The whole point I was trying to make ( before getting barraged with garbage from Brendan) was that I could see why they elected to ask them to bring the horse to Syd rather than risk giving a horse that had not raced behind a mobile for so long.
I have read the article you posted and whilst the panel agreed that the format was flawed ( I believe they were referring to only having 2 discretionary spots and as ITMQ and SU were going to get those ) not that T T L was entitled to a spot in front of those two horses.

Also I think the fact that he hadn't really been known as a mile type horse would have influenced their reluctance.

Leigh I think your statement about I T M Q not warranting a start in next years MM is a little cheeky ,so I wont take it too serious.

[aussiebreno]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14966][QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14960]

Can anyone out there HELP POOR OLD BRENDAN . I think he is struggling to comprehend simple language.

You are missing the whole crux of my point and that is
On he's currant form he had no mobile form and anyone that has half an idea about horses (and you obviously don't) would have great concern as to why that was so.
So as a precaution the panel has played it safe and said come over and have a run if he goes OK we'll issue with a start.
Now your ridiculous statement about me agreeing with on the travel clause only reinforces my already dwindling opinion of your harness knowledge.( just on that subject Brendan would you please, just for my amusement publish your expertise in training pacers) It actually proved that T T L is a horse that did not have what it takes to compete at that level, at this stage of his career

If my memory is correct he couldn't win the Cordina sprint that was not half as good a field that we had in the M.M Surely that justified the panel's decision.


How about this clanger Brendan

Not that there are any qualifications; but how is a NEW ZEALAND journalist qualified to talk about a race in SYDNEY. I'd be disapointed if Greg Hayes spent more time worrying about the NZ Cup than races in NSW.

Is this the ramblings of a desperate man or what, since when do where you live have any bearing on your knowledge of an Industry , Brendan are you saying wayne bennett wouldn't have a clue about rugby league anywhere else in the world, or Bart Cummings wouldn't know about N.Z racing , if you think Greg Hayes would be more interested in run of the mill races here in Aus while the N.Z cup was on then your are even more ignorant than I had previously thought .( and that is saying something).

This the absolute Icing on the Cake

but that article actually had more things that side with me than what side with you

All your ramblings have been how hard done by Terror To Love was to not get an automatic invite .
All the article is about is why he wasn't hard done by and the reasons for it.
But in your fantasy world you come up with that conclusion THAT'L DO ME
For one that wants to sprout about the comprehension of 'simple language' I thought you would have been able to at least produce that simple language.

Nevertheless I will continue on topic. You are putting words in the mouth of the NSWHRC. Never did they express queries about his form. They apologised for the criteria and said we are sorry but please show up in the Cordina and we will put you in barring a below par performance. Heck, a shocking performance may have still got him in, it did so for 2 other runners. Your main man Geurin even says something along the lines of this -
"And while nobody will admit to it, Terror To Love was as good as invited last weekend.
His connections would have been told as long as you turn up in Sydney this week and don't disgrace yourself in a lead-up race you will be starting in the Miracle Mile."

You want to question my harness knowledge; yet something I knew straight after the NZ Cup was later confirmed 2.5 weeks later when TTL got his invite. I knew he was good enough. The Cordina 2nd is testament to this. What other 2 horses could have knocked TTL out of a spot?

Geurin is saying TTL wasn't hard done because the conditions (with the 3 auto invites) were set in stone ages ago and basically ITMQ and Smoken Up are better than him. That wasn't my gripe, my gripe was with the conditions. Geurin even says the conditions 'may need tinkering'.

I could dig deeper into the Geurin article, but it actually suits my argument moreso than yours.

Also, Lucky Camillas Lovechild, posted the article I was earlier referring to. Dumesny has admitted things needed to change because it was wrong. Why can't you Denny? Just see something I post and immediately choose to disagree with it because its written by me?

[triplev123]

Hey Triple
You say you would like to see all MM contenders have at least one race in a lead up race so the fan's get to see them more than a once off, if i recall correctly your a fan of the new Inter from 2013 which is the complete oposite which is a fly in fly out basis. May i ask why the difference of opinion on these race's.

[VVV] Sure. I much prefer to watch the best Open/FFA Class horses around line up and go at it hammer & tongs over the Mile as compared to watching them race under an ID format, be it the traditional one or the new one. That being said, I happen to enjoy juvenile racing more than anything.

[A BIT DUSTY]

I knew he was good enough. The Cordina 2nd is testament to this. What other 2 horses could have knocked TTL out of a spot? Ran Last beaten 40 mtrs you sure are a good judge

Dumesny has admitted things needed to change because it was wrong. Dumensy said it was flawed not wrong ( there is a huge difference)

Dumesny said it was up to individual trainers to devise how best to make the field - and if they chose to put all their eggs into one basket and rely on an invitation they set themselves up for disappointment.

"Look at the Butt brothers, they sized up the situation and sent Raglan round in the Newcastle Mile and now he's in. And they chose to run Lisagain in the Coca Cola, in preference to the New Zealand Free-for-all to give him his best chance."

]When asked how it looked that the best horse in New Zealand was not in the event, Dumesny replied: "We think we've got the best horse that raced at the cup carnival, Smoken Up. You didn't mention this bit

"There's no way you could put Terror To Love in front of I'm The Mightyquinn and Smoken Up." YOU DIDN'T MENTION THIS BIT EITHER

I could dig deeper into the Geurin article, but it actually suits my argument moreso than yours. There you go of to fantasy world again

[aussiebreno]

Mango makes a good point.

This should imo be the Miracle Mile criteria.

Winners will be exempt from:

Sunshine Sprint QLD
Legends Mile VIC
Chairmans Sprint WA
NZ Cup
NZ FFA
A mile race in each of Tassie and SA
Cordina

8 horse field.

[aussiebreno]

I knew he was good enough. The Cordina 2nd is testament to this. What other 2 horses could have knocked TTL out of a spot? Ran Last beaten 40 mtrs you sure are a good judge

Dumesny has admitted things needed to change because it was wrong. Dumensy said it was flawed not wrong ( there is a huge difference)

Dumesny said it was up to individual trainers to devise how best to make the field - and if they chose to put all their eggs into one basket and rely on an invitation they set themselves up for disappointment.

"Look at the Butt brothers, they sized up the situation and sent Raglan round in the Newcastle Mile and now he's in. And they chose to run Lisagain in the Coca Cola, in preference to the New Zealand Free-for-all to give him his best chance."

When asked how it looked that the best horse in New Zealand was not in the event, Dumesny replied: "We think we've got the best horse that raced at the cup carnival, Smoken Up. You didn't mention this bit

"There's no way you could put Terror To Love in front of I'm The Mightyquinn and Smoken Up."

I could dig deeper into the Geurin article, but it actually suits my argument moreso than yours. There you go of to fantasy world again
If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.
Flawed/wrong whatever it needed changes. Those flaws would have seen TTL in the field straight away.
I'm not begrudging Smoken Ups or ITMQ invitation....
Fantasy world...never heard of such a world. Do you live there or what? You seem to know a bit about it.

[triplev123]

Mango makes a good point.

This should imo be the Miracle Mile criteria.

Winners will be exempt from:

Sunshine Sprint QLD
Legends Mile VIC
Chairmans Sprint WA
NZ Cup
NZ FFA
A mile race in each of Tassie and SA
Cordina

8 horse field.

[VVV] I think you're onto something Breno. Which Mile races in Tassie & SA would you nominate? :confused:

[aussiebreno]

[VVV] I think you're onto something Breno. Which Mile races in Tassie & SA would you nominate? :confused:
Not sure if they have any decent races around that October-Nov period but something could be worked out surely even if NSWHRC had to put up a bit of prizemoney to help them out.

[A BIT DUSTY]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14988]If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.
Flawed/wrong whatever it needed changes. Those flaws would have seen TTL in the field straight away.
I'm not begrudging Smoken Ups or ITMQ invitation....
Fantasy world...never heard of such a world. Do you live there or what? You seem to know a bit about it.[/QUOTE

If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.

SORRY I thought we were talking about the MIRACLE MILE all this time silly me.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

G'day Leigh,

For mine, TTL didn't deserve a start based solely on his NZ Cup win however, once he was in, I expected a whole lot more of him than he ultimately delivered. Unless macular degeneration or glaucoma are slowly but surely claiming my eyesight, I believe he is a lot better horse than his MM effort suggested.

On the subject of disappointing efforts...and it's getting off the track a bit but nobody has hit on this bloke thus far...
Race 6, MM night, and Franco Emirate had a wrap on him the size of a block of flats but failed to deliver. Then he went around in the Cranbourne Cup and duly platzed and he did it again in the Victoria Cup. Big, strong looking bugger, seems to get over the ground so well too. What's the deal there I wonder? Not well whilst in Oz? Not as good as he was made out to be? Kiwis...Don C? Any thoughts?
Wow VVV. You really hate the Kiwi's don't you?

[aussiebreno]

[QUOTE=aussiebreno;14988]If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.
Flawed/wrong whatever it needed changes. Those flaws would have seen TTL in the field straight away.
I'm not begrudging Smoken Ups or ITMQ invitation....
Fantasy world...never heard of such a world. Do you live there or what? You seem to know a bit about it.[/QUOTE

If you are judging TTL by the Miracle Mile run then shame on you.

SORRY I thought we were talking about the MIRACLE MILE all this time silly me.

So miracle mile invites are given out AFTER the miracle mile :O
TTL clearly wasn't at his best in the Miracle Mile. You've already acknowledged this.
Me thinks you just like arguing against me just for the sake of it.

[A BIT DUSTY]

[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14992]

So miracle mile invites are given out AFTER the miracle mile :O
TTL clearly wasn't at his best in the Miracle Mile. You've already acknowledged this.
Me thinks you just like arguing against me just for the sake of it.


Did I detect a quiver of the bottom lip in that last sentence LOL

[Maorisidol]

[VVV] I think you're onto something Breno. Which Mile races in Tassie & SA would you nominate? :confused:

You guys cant be serious!
A Mile race in SA or Tassie, and while i'm at it WA to be a qualifier, giving the winner a 100% start in the MM?????????????
Crikey theyll go at least 1:58.3 in SA and Tassie!!! Come on guys the best hometown horses in those states dont rank in the top 20 in Vic and u wanna give that horse a guaranteed run? (assuming of course an interstater doesnt go over and take the cash, as if they wouldnt)
Take out ITMQ and David Hercules from Perth and what horse would have the balls to travel East, imo, none.

[aussiebreno]

You guys cant be serious!
A Mile race in SA or Tassie, and while i'm at it WA to be a qualifier, giving the winner a 100% start in the MM?????????????
Crikey theyll go at least 1:58.3 in SA and Tassie!!! Come on guys the best hometown horses in those states dont rank in the top 20 in Vic and u wanna give that horse a guaranteed run? (assuming of course an interstater doesnt go over and take the cash, as if they wouldnt)
Take out ITMQ and David Hercules from Perth and what horse would have the balls to travel East, imo, none.
You can't just say one state has better horses when they don't race against each other.
I think even Denny likes this idea because he didn't argue with me about it.

[A BIT DUSTY]

You can't just say one state has better horses when they don't race against each other.
I think even Denny likes this idea because he didn't argue with me about it.

It was only because I thought you were being funny , I didn't think even you could be serious about having heats in SA and Tassie. You just keep on surprising me Brendan.

[aussiebreno]

It was only because I thought you were being funny , I didn't think even you could be serious about having heats in SA and Tassie. You just keep on surprising me Brendan.
Bugger. You got me!

I never was good at fishing.

[teecee]

G'day Leigh,

For mine, TTL didn't deserve a start based solely on his NZ Cup win however, once he was in, I expected a whole lot more of him than he ultimately delivered. Unless macular degeneration or glaucoma are slowly but surely claiming my eyesight, I believe he is a lot better horse than his MM effort suggested.

On the subject of disappointing efforts...and it's getting off the track a bit but nobody has hit on this bloke thus far...
Race 6, MM night, and Franco Emirate had a wrap on him the size of a block of flats but failed to deliver. Then he went around in the Cranbourne Cup and duly platzed and he did it again in the Victoria Cup. Big, strong looking bugger, seems to get over the ground so well too. What's the deal there I wonder? Not well whilst in Oz? Not as good as he was made out to be? Kiwis...Don C? Any thoughts?

The big wrap for Franco Emirate was generated almost solely by an Oz media guy..I think his name was Hamilton. His info was gotten by a Kiwi called Guerin. Now some people will tell you these guys know their business but they are really just into headline grabbing.

Franco mirate went to Oz after a career of just 22 starts. He won 14 with 5 minor placings. Most of his racing has been in age group racing. He went to Oz as "a big boofhead" on an education sojourn. He was hardly a goer against his Oz opposition.
He learnt heaps and you can seriously watch for him next time.

[triplev123]

G'day Tony,
It might be just his size, whatever it is...there's something about him (Franco Emirate) that reminds me of Melpark Major.
On MM night he looked like a 3 headed Gorilla heading out to warm up. Big, strong, a long stride on him and I thought to myself how can they beat this? He went off at $1.30 and although he finished 3rd, to me he never ever looked like a winning chance at any stage in the race. I think you may have him pegged. He's physically mature but at the moment, mentally, maybe still not totally switched on. If he puts it all together, a horse of those physical dimensions really should be something to watch next time around.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14975][QUOTE=aussiebreno;14966][QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14960]

Can anyone out there HELP POOR OLD BRENDAN . I think he is struggling to comprehend simple language.

You are missing the whole crux of my point and that is
On he's currant form he had no mobile form and anyone that has half an idea about horses (and you obviously don't) would have great concern as to why that was so.
So as a precaution the panel has played it safe and said come over and have a run if he goes OK we'll issue with a start.
Now your ridiculous statement about me agreeing with on the travel clause only reinforces my already dwindling opinion of your harness knowledge.( just on that subject Brendan would you please, just for my amusement publish your expertise in training pacers) It actually proved that T T L is a horse that did not have what it takes to compete at that level, at this stage of his career

Let me help you out..
The facts...
Terror to Love has a record prior to tripping to Sydney...
26 Starts...12 Wins....4 seconds.....3 thirds
from those 26 starts and twelve wins His record behind the gate was 21 Satrts...10 wins
Best winning time 1.55.00 rating over 1950 metres
Best placed time 1.54.30 over 1 mile
Ended 3yo season with a dead heat 1st with (the) Gold Ace mobile 1950 metres.

Yes he had his last 5 starts in New Zealand from a stand.
These were his only standing start experience.
A very plausible reason he has only had standing starts this campaign.....His aim being the NZ Cup. A standing start FFA.
All lead up races for horses aiming for NZ Cup starts were Standing start events.
There is no evidence whatever that Terror to Love has PROBLEMS with mobile racing for NSWHRC to consider him unworthy.
I have previously expressed my view on automatic eligibilty of NZ up winners to the Miracle mile.

The simple facts of Terror to Love's effort in the Miracle Mile are...
The conditions of the race set out a series of races where contenders must race.
The NZ Cup was the horse's main target with a hope of a wildcard invite to the Miracle Mile.
Only two outside invites were available as per the conditions and rightfully IO Smoken Up and ITMQ had earned these.
Not getting an auto invite meant Terror to Love had to compete in the last gasp heat..(Cordina Sprint) where he ran gallantly for 2nd earning a place in the Mile.
Previously very few horses out of the Cordina (Norm's Daughter excepted) back up well into the Miracle Mile. this along with rushed travel arrangements, poor acclimatisation to Oz conditions and being tired enough afterwards for him to lie down in his paddock for 2 days after getting home all led to / from his below par performance in the Miracle Mile.

[teecee]

G'day Tony,
It might be just his size, whatever it is...there's something about him (Franco Emirate) that reminds me of Melpark Major.
On MM night he looked like a 3 headed Gorilla heading out to warm up. Big, strong, a long stride on him and I thought to myself how can they beat this? He went off at $1.30 and although he finished 3rd, to me he never ever looked like a winning chance at any stage in the race. I think you may have him pegged. He's physically mature but at the moment, mentally, maybe still not totally switched on. If he puts it all together, a horse of those physical dimensions really should be something to watch next time around.

Jaimie...For sure he has the ability...
Strong Winner of the Messenger after a sighter at the Auckland way of going in the Taylor Mile and 4yo jewels last season.
Was one of the early favourites for the NZ Cup when Smoken Up's program was unknown he was pulled out of that early on when he just couldn't handle the stand starts.
They had him in 3 heats at the workouts one day just for stand start practice. managed it 1 of 3 so no NZ Cup. ent out and won mobile FFA Cup day instead.
That said I remember him losing over 100 metres at start of a race very early in his career stand start then killing his opposition.
Having had that trip across the ditch, if you have a black book put his name at the top of each page with a highlighter pen. Next time you see him over there his reputation and your first impression will be justified I'm sure.
ps..I was there when he was born and being a Franco horse I wondered all that night.(shift) whether I could lease him ....He was a great looking foal and looking back I thought him the best foal I handled that season. (out of 87). Only pegged one better since in 5 years and waiting for it to emerge...!!!!!

[A BIT DUSTY]

[QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14975][QUOTE=aussiebreno;14966][QUOTE=A BIT DUSTY;14960]

Can anyone out there HELP POOR OLD BRENDAN . I think he is struggling to comprehend simple language.

You are missing the whole crux of my point and that is
On he's currant form he had no mobile form and anyone that has half an idea about horses (and you obviously don't) would have great concern as to why that was so.
So as a precaution the panel has played it safe and said come over and have a run if he goes OK we'll issue with a start.
Now your ridiculous statement about me agreeing with on the travel clause only reinforces my already dwindling opinion of your harness knowledge.( just on that subject Brendan would you please, just for my amusement publish your expertise in training pacers) It actually proved that T T L is a horse that did not have what it takes to compete at that level, at this stage of his career

Let me help you out..
The facts...
Terror to Love has a record prior to tripping to Sydney...
26 Starts...12 Wins....4 seconds.....3 thirds
from those 26 starts and twelve wins His record behind the gate was 21 Satrts...10 wins
Best winning time 1.55.00 rating over 1950 metres
Best placed time 1.54.30 over 1 mile
Ended 3yo season with a dead heat 1st with (the) Gold Ace mobile 1950 metres.

Yes he had his last 5 starts in New Zealand from a stand.
These were his only standing start experience.
A very plausible reason he has only had standing starts this campaign.....His aim being the NZ Cup. A standing start FFA.
All lead up races for horses aiming for NZ Cup starts were Standing start events.
There is no evidence whatever that Terror to Love has PROBLEMS with mobile racing for NSWHRC to consider him unworthy.
I have previously expressed my view on automatic eligibilty of NZ up winners to the Miracle mile.

The simple facts of Terror to Love's effort in the Miracle Mile are...
The conditions of the race set out a series of races where contenders must race.
The NZ Cup was the horse's main target with a hope of a wildcard invite to the Miracle Mile.
Only two outside invites were available as per the conditions and rightfully IO Smoken Up and ITMQ had earned these.
Not getting an auto invite meant Terror to Love had to compete in the last gasp heat..(Cordina Sprint) where he ran gallantly for 2nd earning a place in the Mile.
Previously very few horses out of the Cordina (Norm's Daughter excepted) back up well into the Miracle Mile. this along with rushed travel arrangements, poor acclimatisation to Oz conditions and being tired enough afterwards for him to lie down in his paddock for 2 days after getting home all led to / from his below par performance in the Miracle Mile.

Good Post Tony.

I acknowledge the point's you have made for his poor MM run .
The main reason I doubted his credentials to receive an auoto invite after the NZ Cup were his lack of dominate performances over the mile .
I went back through his Mobile Mile form and seen were he had either had been beaten by Gold Ace or on one occasion managed to dead heat with him.
Then I seen that he only beat a horse called Alchemy by a neck and wondered about his class over the mile from the Mobile.
He'll probably come over and win the next 3 MM now and prove my form wrong, but on his Cordina, and MM runs this year I can't argue with him not getting an automatic invite

[triplev123]

Jaimie...For sure he has the ability...
Strong Winner of the Messenger after a sighter at the Auckland way of going in the Taylor Mile and 4yo jewels last season.
Was one of the early favourites for the NZ Cup when Smoken Up's program was unknown he was pulled out of that early on when he just couldn't handle the stand starts.
They had him in 3 heats at the workouts one day just for stand start practice. managed it 1 of 3 so no NZ Cup. ent out and won mobile FFA Cup day instead.
That said I remember him losing over 100 metres at start of a race very early in his career stand start then killing his opposition.
Having had that trip across the ditch, if you have a black book put his name at the top of each page with a highlighter pen. Next time you see him over there his reputation and your first impression will be justified I'm sure.
ps..I was there when he was born and being a Franco horse I wondered all that night.(shift) whether I could lease him ....He was a great looking foal and looking back I thought him the best foal I handled that season. (out of 87). Only pegged one better since in 5 years and waiting for it to emerge...!!!!!

[VVV] G'day Tony. Having been there when he arrived, it must be a real buzz for you to now be watching him race. That's pretty special.
Many develop over time of course but every so often there'll be a foal that comes along and it looks the goods virtually from the moment they stand up to take their first drink.
We've got an American Ideal colt foal here that I actually delivered, he got himself a bit stuck there for a few moments, & he has been a star from day one. Previous to him was a Christian Cullen filly from back in the 2011/12 season.