Suss race

[barney]

Have a look at the drives on the Jack boys in 2nd race at Shepparton Nathan on odds on fav and Daniel on longer priced one he trains went crazy in front and D Jacks horse finished a long way back race was one by another Jack horse

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Have a look at the drives on the Jack boys in 2nd race at Shepparton Nathan on odds on fav and Daniel on longer priced one he trains went crazy in front and D Jacks horse finished a long way back race was one by another Jack horse
Mate you beat me to it. Just saw the replay. Seriously, WTF! If I was David Farrar, I'd be filthy. Surely some holiday time heading the Jack boys way.

[barney]

The only redeeming feature was that the winner was driven by Leigh Sutton.
But honestly how do they think they can get away with that gabbage.Harness racing has enough problems without this.

[David Summers]

I note that the stewards have adjoined an enquiry into the driving tactics of D. Jack and have asked for an explanation of the driving of N. Jack. More about this in the coming days ........ hopefully.

[Just Saying]

...If I was David Farrar, I'd be filthy...
It was a great training performance for little reward thanks to D. Jack.

[Itisi]

Was at that meeting, fair dinky the stewards room now is like walking into a classroom of kids just have a look at the reports now and there's one word they know backwards NOTED.

[Arnie]

Have a look at the drives on the Jack boys in 2nd race at Shepparton Nathan on odds on fav and Daniel on longer priced one he trains went crazy in front and D Jacks horse finished a long way back race was one by another Jack horse

As you know or feel, that's team driving. Not supposed to happen but does on many occassions where stablemates are involved. Many not so obvious ones too. Just got to know who the buddy combinations are. Another aspect of betting that we don't need to strain our brain on but beneficial when you do know the match ups and how they operate.

[Itisi]

Check out the stewards report at Echuca dec13 race four, Jack boys being asked again to explain their tactics.

[aussiebreno]

Check out the stewards report at Echuca dec13 race four, Jack boys being asked again to explain their tactics.
Started reading it and seen the horse was Tough Denem. Being from Wagga I knew the horse races best when sent forward and I guessed what had happened before reading the next part of the paragraph. Without watching the replay it also seems he hooked on. Stewards accepted and agreed with Jacks explanation so I don't know why you went to the bother of posting it here.

[Messenger]

Late latching on here but that race was a shocker. DW should get heaps - Nathan was clearly not handing up but he kept at him until bell. Wrestling with N's role - easy to think he was party to slaughter but with 3 DW runners in race, he could think that handing up could result in another coming around and he ends up 3 back. If you want to guarantee losing he hands up belatedly when softened and know you will be dragged back when DW's tires early (which he had to). Less obvious - well less likely to incurr suspension team tactic, if N was in on it, would have been to have him hand up down back and then send another one or two of the stable around.

[Itisi]

Jeez I wish I was born in Wagga and was as smart as you but I was not, and as it is I only have the interest of the sport at hand. Now before you get on your high horse I respect the Jacks as drivers Nathen has enormous talent. But it does not look good to the public what happened particular after the race that this thread was started. Maybe the public should be informed that this horse that has won at Canberra and some other shit hole races this way as the stewards sure did not know.

[aussiebreno]

Jeez I wish I was born in Wagga and was as smart as you but I was not, and as it is I only have the interest of the sport at hand. Now before you get on your high horse I respect the Jacks as drivers Nathen has enormous talent. But it does not look good to the public what happened particular after the race that this thread was started. Maybe the public should be informed that this horse that has won at Canberra and some other shit hole races this way as the stewards sure did not know.
I said I live in Wagga to give a background as to why I know the horse and its traits. Victorians that come to race at Wagga I do not as well and, states reversed, this is obviously the case with what has happened here - or maybe I am giving you too much credit and you just don't know any horses very well. Tongue in cheek that comment don't get mad!
The stewards accepted it when Jack said the horse races best that way, why couldn't you also accept that yet had to come and post it here....
The public is informed, its called a form guide. I don't blame the stewards for asking the question re driving tactics employed as I don't expect them to know everything about every horse plus there was probably a few il-informed people thinking this is a set up and the stewards report should have cleared up all was above board.

[barney]

Have a look at the drives on the Jack boys in 2nd race at Shepparton Nathan on odds on fav and Daniel on longer priced one he trains went crazy in front and D Jacks horse finished a long way back race was one by another Jack horse
My biggest query was not so much Nathan for not handing up (he does have history of that with Dasher Douglas) but his brother for what seemed to me to be obvious a tactic to get fav beaten and win with one of his other horses.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

It would seem the stewards are leaving no stone unturned. Adjourned so they can get phone and betting records.

[Messenger]

It would seem the stewards are leaving no stone unturned. Adjourned so they can get phone and betting records.

Could they still have suspended him on a driving charge and later lumped on anything else that comes to light?

I noticed Vic stewards did not muck around with D.Moran in R.7 at Melton on friday night. He set up a 41.9 lead time on Mister Grizzly (Smoken up ran 43.5 in his Vic Cup record). I notice he is a concession driver - it may have been his first metro drive for all I know. Just returning to the sport, I don't know of any stable links to explain his drive - probably just stupidity

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX231211&ms=vic&fromstate=vic#void

[ringman]

I see yesterday Gangster boy was in and driven with more patience

[barney]

Yes Gangster boy sat in death last bit seemed gone on turn but battled on.First up may have taken bit out of it.I did think that it would have won that race on best form.

[Just Saying]

Nathan Jack. Not corrupt. Just hopelessly incompetent.

[aussiebreno]

Nathan Jack. Not corrupt. Just hopelessly incompetent.
I'd like to be incompetent and still be sitting 5th on the state drivers table!!

[Just Saying]

I'd like to be incompetent and still be sitting 5th on the state drivers table!!
Fair enough. Then he should get 3 months for his drive on Left in Paris last night. They've queried his drive and will hopefully punish him.

[mightymo]

i think you will find he was driving to instructions...

[Just Saying]

i think you will find he was driving to instructions...
Please continue...

[mightymo]

by that I mean, I imagine he was told to lead and to hold the lead

[Just Saying]

by that I mean, I imagine he was told to lead and to hold the lead
So I should email a copy of a form guide with detailed instructions on how to read it to the trainer as well?

[Toohard]

In the post race interview on track following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right) he said that Left In Paris was drawn to lead. Said he was going to run the gate and try get the front and, if he got it, wasn't handing up to anyone.

[Just Saying]

In the post race interview on track following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right) he said that Left In Paris was drawn to lead. Said he was going to run the gate and try get the front and, if he got it, wasn't handing up to anyone.
So basically he doesn't bother to read a form guide or alter his driving tactics according to the ability of his or other horses in the race? That's fine at a meeting for R0 class horses out at Woop Woop but he simply shouldn't be allowed to drive at Metropolitan meetings.

[Just Saying]

...following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right)...
Or he is utterly clueless AND shouldn't be driving at Metro meetings.

[aussiebreno]

Fair enough. Then he should get 3 months for his drive on Left in Paris last night. They've queried his drive and will hopefully punish him.
Yeah I thought one drive in particular made you comment.
Didn't see it so can't comment.

[aussiebreno]

As a generalisation and not aimed at this N Jack drive; I hate the driving to instructions excuse. Sometimes it painfully obvious those instructions aren't going to work, if not before the race but then during the race. Unfortanately the consequences of driving against instructions and then making a goose of yourself are just too high most drivers are just prepared to play it safe.

[mightymo]

Scott

Did you back LIP or CA?

[Maorisidol]

So basically he doesn't bother to read a form guide or alter his driving tactics according to the ability of his or other horses in the race? That's fine at a meeting for R0 class horses out at Woop Woop but he simply shouldn't be allowed to drive at Metropolitan meetings.

Scott, whats your opinion on this bit, "In the post race interview on track following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right)" Will Trappers Trainer obviously got it right, he crapped all over Sundons Gift and is now Australias best trotter at the moment...imo!!! Great run trainers instructions 100% correct...

[aussiebreno]

Scott, whats your opinion on this bit, "In the post race interview on track following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right)" Will Trappers Trainer obviously got it right, he crapped all over Sundons Gift and is now Australias best trotter at the moment...imo!!! Great run trainers instructions 100% correct...
It's great to see a horse who had been of the scene a long time come back as good as Will Trapper has!

[Just Saying]

Scott

Did you back LIP or CA?
Neither. BIG Courageous Annie fan and hate to see good horses lose due to incompetence.

[Just Saying]

Scott, whats your opinion on this bit, "In the post race interview on track following his win on Will Trapper (who he said he drove to that trainers instructions even though he thought not right)" Will Trappers Trainer obviously got it right, he crapped all over Sundons Gift and is now Australias best trotter at the moment...imo!!! Great run trainers instructions 100% correct...
I did back Will Trapper and he is going brilliantly! I think Nathan follows Trainers instructions, good and bad, because he has no bloody idea about tactics himself.

[Toohard]

Neither. BIG Courageous Annie fan and hate to see good horses lose due to incompetence.

Gday Scott. Firstly, I don't know Nathan Jack personally. But he told everyone of his intentions pre-race and if he hands up to Courageous Annie this forum would have been flooded with complaints about him again. I reckon Courageous Annie goes round like she did and sits outside him instead of attacking for lead she wins easy. But thats just my opinion and we all entitled to them.

By the way, the drive of Scott Dyer on Tara Royale to win the race was a 10 out of 10. Perfectly judged as was N. Jacks drive on Will Trapper.

[Just Saying]

Gday Scott. Firstly, I don't know Nathan Jack personally. But he told everyone of his intentions pre-race and if he hands up to Courageous Annie this forum would have been flooded with complaints about him again. I reckon Courageous Annie goes round like she did and sits outside him instead of attacking for lead she wins easy. But thats just my opinion and we all entitled to them.

By the way, the drive of Scott Dyer on Tara Royale to win the race was a 10 out of 10. Perfectly judged as was N. Jacks drive on Will Trapper.
Fair enough. It's his decision to hold the lead that I'm questioning regardless of him giving prior notice.

[Village Kid]

Hi Guys

Was really looking forward to the 2 Graham horses run at Melton Friday night (Lanercost and Courageous Annie) as they both have incredible records racing against their own age, and are terrific horses, but both have led in the vast majority of their career starts, and that wasn't going to be the case Fri night.

Was always going to be interesting to see what would happen if either or both had to come from back in the field. Not that they couldn't be successful with that style of racing, but they simply didn't have to racing against their own age group, as they were so far superior they couldd dominate and dictate the terms of most races .

With regards to Nathan Jack - If he simply hands up the lead to Courageous Annie on LIP they're running for 2nd place, if they burn to keep her out then they obviously compromise their own chances. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Either way both Graham horses are top class and will bounce back no doubt, but racing against open company they'll need to add another string to their bow. With their high speed as a fan of the sport I'd love to see them driven sit sprint style to see how they'd adapt.

Cheers.

[barney]

Any results re the original race regarding the Jacks?

[barney]

Still waiting how long does it take

[barney]

this inquiry will resume next Monday as all information has been received and analysed.

[broncobrad]

Everytime I go back and look at the replay I feel crook in the guts...and its not because of anything I ate. Stick with it Barney.

[steve]

Have you got a axe to grind with the Jack family Barney ?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Have you got a axe to grind with the Jack family Barney ?

Steve, Barney isn't the only one who thought this race stunk to high heaven.

[barney]

not at all just want to see the sport rid of this sort of crap dont you.

[barney]

not at all just want to see the sport rid of this sort of crap dont you.

When i tip a horse dont want to see it butchered by someone who has no intention of winning but setting it up for stablemate as what happened in this race.
If wasnt suss whuy was the stewards involved you answer that

[clumsy]

Race 5 Shepparton Thursday night, stewards have adjourned an inquiry into D Jacks tactics

[barney]

Where did you see that nothing on harness website yet. like to know what they got him for.

[Itisi]

Where did you see that nothing on harness website yet. like to know what they got him for.

It is in the stewards report from that meeting

[barney]

It is in the stewards report from that meeting

Stewards report from that meeting has gone of harness site that long ago could you post the link.

[Itisi]

Still there Barney 9/2/12 don't know how to do that link stuff. Sorry but is in AHR site racing section. Hope that helps

[barney]

Thats not the one im looking for race in question was 7/12/ 2011 and inquiry was concluded Monday have been told got 8 weeks but cant find it on Harness .org.

Thanks for posting that link.

[bbd]

Thats not the one im looking for race in question was 7/12/ 2011 and inquiry was concluded Monday have been told got 8 weeks but cant find it on Harness .org.

Thanks for posting that link.

Look again. It's there now in the Stewards Wrap section

[barney]

Thanks found it got the 8 weeks for his drive. Betting wasnt involved

[Itisi]

He cops eight weeks,Scott Dyer gets six weeks for not giving his horse every chance. What we have I think is to light a sentence for these offences.

[aussiebreno]

He cops eight weeks,Scott Dyer gets six weeks for not giving his horse every chance. What we have I think is to light a sentence for these offences.
Under that rule its hard to give big sentences. It could just be an honest, 100% trying yet poor drive.

[Toohard]

He cops eight weeks,Scott Dyer gets six weeks for not giving his horse every chance. What we have I think is to light a sentence for these offences.

Scott Dyers suspension was 'overturned' on appeal

[aussiebreno]

Interesting race at Young tonight where Chloe Vargatira and Charm Alarm will meet again, both trained by new trainers and have drawn side by side

[Itisi]

Scott Dyers suspension was 'overturned' on appealThis surely tell you something,here we have a panel of stewards dish out a penalty to a driver they say never gave his horse every chance, and yet on appeal he gets off. Are our stewards incompetent or what.

[broncobrad]

Interesting race at Young tonight where Chloe Vargatira and Charm Alarm will meet again, both trained by new trainers and have drawn side by side

And they finished side by side. Backed Grace Artoise and thought she was home till Dream Runna produced an unbelievable finish thru' the guts, brave drive by Wilmot, bugga!!

[aussiebreno]

And they finished side by side. Backed Grace Artoise and thought she was home till Dream Runna produced an unbelievable finish thru' the guts, brave drive by Wilmot, bugga!!
Was a very quick final finish from Dream Runna! Should never have run them down after getting out so late.

[The Form Student]

Check the drive on "We dare To Dream", his licence should have been ripped up!

http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.wmv
http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.mp4

[clumsy]

Check the drive on "We dare To Dream", his licence should have been ripped up!

http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.wmv
http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.mp4
What else do you want him to do ? Get out and carry the horse, I think you are being harsh on this drive.
Stewards report: horse stood down. drivers explanation accepted.

[broncobrad]

He came off the pole and was entitled to maintain that lead, handed up to the 1/3 fav when it was pointless in persevering. Nathan Jack is reknowned for going on with it. We dare to dream features prominently in the stewards report and was stood down to trial satisfactorily. Are you saying he (Cramp) drove ineptly or something else.
The horse was beat. It broke under its exertions. Even the horse that sat behind the leader folded at the end. Winner too hot. Nothing untoward here.

[Danno]

Check the drive on "We dare To Dream", his licence should have been ripped up!

http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.wmv
http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/NYC15021201.mp4

Geez Steve,
I hope you don't get a job as steward!.... No one will have a licence! The drive had absolutely no impact on the way the horse folded.

Cheers,
Dan

[The Form Student]

Listen boys.....he punched up inside them out of the gate & held the lead.......that's OK, he got pressured a bit by another runner........that's fine.....he maintained the lead for a while as the favourite worked around aiming for the lead...........1st quarter of the last mile was in 29.8, in no other race did they break 32 for that quarter.....the 1/3 favourite then got the lead off him.......and now he can trail the favourite for the rest of the race, maybe hang on for a place......fair enough, I don't know the horse...........but wait.........he immediately comes straight back outside the favourite at the bell..........doesn't look like a smart move to me..............and exits before the back straight...........I can't even give him the benefit of a poor drive.....IMO he had a brain snap or was doing some work on the favourite...........Please tell me you agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teecee]

The videos are consistent with the explanation tended by the driver to the stewards as per the stewards report of the race.
The stewards noted the driver's explanation and consistent with that acted against the horse relative to its performance and racing manners.

[The Form Student]

I will get back to you on this one!

[broncobrad]

Anyone care for a little game called ***NAME THAT PACER*** To play you will need to watch the replay of Penrith Race 6 held a little while ago this evening. The horse concerned is a little grey chap with No.4 saddle cloth and his driver has a lovely green and gold diagonal striped number on. For a moment I thought it might be Pure Steel. Anyone else care to take a stab?

[mightymo]

i backed it. not quite sure what he was doing for the first 600 metres or so...

[broncobrad]

i backed it. not quite sure what he was doing for the first 600 metres or so...

Thats my point Harvey and then the gelding has got the gall to somehow still figure in the finish. I mean seriously, how do you judge that drive from one of the better reinsmen? Not up to standard or just not giving his drive every opportunity?

[mightymo]

i backed it because I was pretty certain it was the best horse in the race and could sit in the breeze and still win.

Certainly not a good drive...

[broncobrad]

Well, we will leave that one for the experts to adjudicate on. I can't wait to get their interpretation of what a poor drive is.

[broncobrad]

I meant the stewards, not the rabble on here. Thats a joke boys. I always value your opinions.

[clumsy]

Nothing wrong with the the drive, I thought he did a good job after getting caught wide early he looked to get into the running line but couldn't and then let the horse make its way to the death without rushing it.

[broncobrad]

Can't argue with that Greg, he certainly didn't rush him. Like I said, am happy wait and see how the stewards see it.

[The Form Student]

Can't argue with that Greg, he certainly didn't rush him. Like I said, am happy wait and see how the stewards see it.

They won't say a word and so they shouldn't........he sat outside the lead at Penrith 3 starts ago and ran 2nd.......he got caught wide early and there was no point going back at Penrith......so outside the lead we go......the winner has beenflying since resuming form a spell!

[broncobrad]

Thats a compelling arguement Steve but I think he is entitled to be asked why he sat in no mans land for 250 yards before he even decided to go forward on a slow searching trip for another 300 yards. I was aware of his earlier runs and the bother he finds. Maybe Gav was trying to instil a bit of confidence in the horse, who knows. I'll wait for the report and don't worry, I wont expect any suprises. Got an early start in the morning pal, thats it for me tonight.

[Greg Hando]

The drive on the fav in the 2nd was a doozy as well.

[clumsy]

The drive on the fav in the 2nd was a doozy as well.

The horse that charged to the lead and then continued not to hand up did all the damage in this race when he tired and dropped back through the field. the driver got 6weeks.

[The Form Student]

Both drivers had in their heads to lead and over did thier tactics, at least R Adams relented at a point to give his horse some chance, if the pace backed off........but then the stayers took off and J Willick put it to the leader knowing his horse would keep plugging away, all fell into place for him, good drive, & so did Glebe Island.......the 2 real pluggers ran 1st & 2nd, a gap of 20 metres to the rest.......to give the driver of the leader 6 weeks is a bit harsh........maybe 2 weeks for overdoing his tactics! Except for the first 400, the rest of the sectionals were nothing inspiring, the best race he could have driven would have been to give up the lead at the 1200 to J Willick , he was trying to slow them down, knowing the early work he had done 1st Q of the mile in 32.8, before J Willick got up him........What if the G Mc on Glebe had not let Drummossie get aroung him at the 1000 metre mark, the placings I think, would have been reversed. Also, R Adams knew to get off the fence behind the leader, and was travelling well until C Pollicina knocked him down at the 500 getting off the fence when the leader fell back in his face!

[broncobrad]

They won't say a word and so they shouldn't........he sat outside the lead at Penrith 3 starts ago and ran 2nd.......he got caught wide early and there was no point going back at Penrith......so outside the lead we go......the winner has beenflying since resuming form a spell!


Nothing wrong with the the drive, I thought he did a good job after getting caught wide early he looked to get into the running line but couldn't and then let the horse make its way to the death without rushing it.

The stewards saw the drive your way and I am eating crow.:(

[broncobrad]

Anyone just watch the drives of John O'Shea and Trent Rue in the last at Bathurst. Talking thru my pocket, but at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?

[latemail_cam]

Bathurst Race 9 09/03/2012 10:30 PM
Seriously how can a punter have confidence, If you get a chance watch the race. I'm not one to put down a person though when you have $5000 the win on the $1.60 fav Kenmore Star Nz and the Driver: JOHN O'SHEA puts in a performance like that it makes me wonder......................

[aussiebreno]

Anyone just watch the drives of John O'Shea and Trent Rue in the last at Bathurst. Talking thru my pocket, but at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?

Latemail Cam just started a thread about this! Didn't see the race but with a reaction like this will be watching the replay.

[latemail_cam]

Anyone just watch the drives of John O'Shea and Trent Rue in the last at Bathurst. Talking thru my pocket, but at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?

I'm seriously gutted, talking straight out of my pocket though completely agree at what point do you give up trying to wrest the lead away?

[broncobrad]

Geez latemail, I only had $20 on it and I'm spittin chips!

[latemail_cam]

Geez latemail, I only had $20 on it and I'm spittin chips!

I had a multi BAILEYS MAGIC NZ / EMMA MONTANA NZ / ICY RIVER / IN HOLIDAY MODE into Kenmore Star. Completely talking through my pocket though those sort of drives need to be punished.....

[broncobrad]

Thats a pretty tough pill to swallow Cameron. I'll just say the same stupid thing I always say, lets see what the stipes say and they never fail to disappoint me.

[broncobrad]

Latemail Cam just started a thread about this! Didn't see the race but with a reaction like this will be watching the replay.

Sorry, I didn't look at the latest thread, just posted my blurb on the Suss Race thread after reaching directly for the valium.

[aussiebreno]

Sorry, I didn't look at the latest thread, just posted my blurb on the Suss Race thread after reaching directly for the valium.

I just do my money cold with poor decisions on my behalf !

[broncobrad]

I just do my money cold with poor decisions on my behalf !

We have seen a few of these sort of drives in recent times and penalties have been handed out duly for them. Interesting to see how the Bathurst panel views the drives. Unfortunately it is customary that we have to wait till next week before the report comes out. Time to hit the hay buddy.

[broncobrad]

Could anyone offer a reason why the replay of this race is not available on the results page of the Australian Harness Racing website via Trots TV for this race?

Is there another source where the replay could be viewed?

[NormanS]

Could anyone offer a reason why the replay of this race is not available on the results page of the Australian Harness Racing website via Trots TV for this race?

Is there another source where the replay could be viewed?

If you're talking about the Bathurst race, its up now on trots tv
watching it right now

[broncobrad]

It is there on Trots TV if anyone does wish to see it, thanks Norman. But the vision is not posted on the Australian Harness Racing results page, even though all other replays are. Thanks mate. I reckon it looks worse the second time.

[NormanS]

It is there on Trots TV if anyone does wish to see it, thanks Norman. But the vision is not posted on the Australian Harness Racing results page, even though all other replays are. Thanks mate. I reckon it looks worse the second time.

Didn't look good the 1st time i watched it. Can't bring myself to watch it a second time

[broncobrad]

The abbreviated stewards report from the results page on http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BH090312&ms=nsw on race 9 indicates the stewards have inquired into the tactics of John O'Shea on the favourite which we will read about in the full report this week, and an inquiry has been opened into Trent Rue's drive. Thank Christ someone noticed it. The silence on these drives is deafening on this forum! We all bang on about improving the image of the sport and when confronted with the very reason the game is on the nose to the run-of-the-mill punter (the life bloods of the sport) no-ones got anything to say!!:(:(:(

[Danno]

The abbreviated stewards report from the results page on http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BH090312&ms=nsw on race 9 indicates the stewards have inquired into the tactics of John O'Shea on the favourite which we will read about in the full report this week, and an inquiry has been opened into Trent Rue's drive. Thank Christ someone noticed it. The silence on these drives is deafening on this forum! We all bang on about improving the image of the sport and when confronted with the very reason the game is on the nose to the run-of-the-mill punter (the life bloods of the sport) no-ones got anything to say!!:(:(:(

An interesting and maybe completely irrelevant fact Brad is that John O'Shea drove all of that trainer's horses until not long ago, also when he ( O'Shea) decided to attack for the lead there appeared from the replay to be a bit of aggression there.

[broncobrad]

I'll have to take another look at that Danno. I am so used to seeing John drive really well controlled races and have never, ever been worried about backing his drives. He usually gives his horses the best opportunity to perform as competitively as possible.

[Greg Hando]

The drive's by both was bloody disgraceful glad i wasn't the owner of either having to put up with brain snap's like that it's hard enough to get a win without this sort of driving happening.For mine at least 6 week's each minimum .

[broncobrad]

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=BH090312 has finally been posted this morning in relation to both drives. They have adjourned the inquiry of Mr T Rue to allow interviewing of the trainer Mr P Trevor-Jones, view betting transactions and view previous runs of Happy Camper.

The stewards advised Mr O'Shea that his explanation is noted and the matter remains open pending further investigation.

The driver of the winner Mr D Costa was fined for excessive use of the whip in a flicking motion. The winner Buddys Spider had indifferent form since returning from a spell (except for a sparkling third at Blayney) and started at $4.90 third favourite.

Is there something crook in Tullarook? Stay tuned...watch this space.:confused:

[broncobrad]

Adjourned inquiry information - according to the stewards report 0f 09/03/12 the date was to be fixed for the inquiry into the drive of Mr Rue.

Where can I find this information, I mean, the date that has been set...anybody?

[Thevoiceofreason]

Guess only but the stewards are in Bathurst over the Gold Crown Carnival , my tip is during that time frame.

Actually just had a look further evidence was taken the following week at Bathurst and the inquiry further adjourned and the horse stood down.

Happy Camper was permitted to race last night so the inquiry may have been concluded at last nights meeting, you will have to check the report when it comes online.

[broncobrad]

Thanks TVOR, but where are you accessing that information from?

[Thevoiceofreason]

Thanks TVOR, but where are you accessing that information from?

www.harness.org.au go to the stewards report section,

I have noticed over the years HRNSW, usually try to do the country inquiries when next in that area of the state hence the next two Bathurst meetings is the first place to look.

[broncobrad]

www.harness.org.au go to the stewards report section,

I have noticed over the years HRNSW, usually try to do the country inquiries when next in that area of the state hence the next two Bathurst meetings is the first place to look.

Thanks for the tip.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Thanks TVOR, but where are you accessing that information from?

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=BH210312

I think answers your questions

[The Form Student]

Supplementary Report
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of HAPPY CAMPER by driver T Rue. Several films were viewed of HAPPY CAMPERS most recent starts and further oral evidence was tendered. After considering all available evidence T Rue was charged under AHR Rule149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that after assuming the lead leaving the 1950 metres he elected to maintain that position when challenged by KENMORE STAR NZ from that point by applying a level of vigour to his runner until passing the 1650 metres at which point T Rue then stopped driving with vigour but failed to make any attempt to steady his runner until passing the 1550 metres when KENMORE STAR broke gait. The tactics employed by T Rue were in contrast to the gelding recent racing pattern and saw HAPPY CAMPER race well forward of the main body of the field which resulted in the lead time being recorded in a fast 37.3 seconds which in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. T Rue pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge T Rue was found guilty. In assesing penalty consideration was given to T Rue's driving record,his personal circumstances and the usual racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER. T Rue had his license to drive in races suspended for six weeks.

Now the stewards get you if you go too fast as well as too slow!.......drivers will need to carry stop watches with them to check on sectionals during running.......I remember their used to be a driver that measured his speed by counting the steps of his horse?...I don't know how that works but that's what he told me! To be honest.....T Rue over did his tactics a bit, he then backed off his speed to a few slow quarters and only got beaten 13 metres at the finish.......I think he should appeal this decision......Why didn't they ask J O'shea why he didn't restrain his horse and race outside the leader......probably because he thought he would get the lead easily, if his horse didn't break, their would have been no enquiry!!! To be honest J O'Shea drove his horse too hard into the turn out of the home straight , which is a very tight turn, and it broke! The previous start Happy Camper gave up the lead to it's stablemate and ran 2nd at Bathurst.......what were the trainers instructions on the night?......The first sectional of 37.5 is fairly brisk, and was in amongst the same times in other races on the night, although they were in better grades!
The stewards should have warned T Rue & J O'Shea for their driving tactics, and fined T Rue for the slow middle sectionals.

[strong persuader]

Supplementary Report
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of KENMORE STAR NZ by driver J O’Shea. After considering all available evidence J O’Shea was charged under AHR Rule 149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that J O’Shea challenged HAPPY CAMPER for the lead from the 1950 metres and until approaching the 1500 metres when it was made clear during that challenge that Mr Trent Rue the driver HAPPY CAMPER intended to maintain the lead. T Rue made this intention clear on several occasions and despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ aggressively which contributed to a fast lead time and resulted in KENMORE STAR NZ racing well forward of the main body of the field. The challenge for the lead persisted although J O’Shea had knowledge of the racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER and was surprised with the tactics of HAPPY CAMPER on this occasion which he found unusual. Despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ with vigour for a significant distance in an attempt to obtain the lead and not employ his initiative particularly with his familiarity of both KENMORE STAR NZ and HAPPY CAMPER racing patterns and ability. This was in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. J O'Shea pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge J O'Shea was found guilty. In assessing penalty stewards considered J O’Shea’s good driving record. Furthermore, consideration was given to the circumstances of the race and his personal circumstances. J O’Shea had his license suspended for 28 days.


A day later, more :) Leads to a few questions for mine. Hopefully one day they will be answered or at least explained.

[Thevoiceofreason]

A day later, more :) Leads to a few questions for mine. Hopefully one day they will be answered or at least explained.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Phil but I miss your point.

[The Form Student]

Supplementary Report
Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of KENMORE STAR NZ by driver J O’Shea. After considering all available evidence J O’Shea was charged under AHR Rule 149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that J O’Shea challenged HAPPY CAMPER for the lead from the 1950 metres and until approaching the 1500 metres when it was made clear during that challenge that Mr Trent Rue the driver HAPPY CAMPER intended to maintain the lead. T Rue made this intention clear on several occasions and despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ aggressively which contributed to a fast lead time and resulted in KENMORE STAR NZ racing well forward of the main body of the field. The challenge for the lead persisted although J O’Shea had knowledge of the racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER and was surprised with the tactics of HAPPY CAMPER on this occasion which he found unusual. Despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ with vigour for a significant distance in an attempt to obtain the lead and not employ his initiative particularly with his familiarity of both KENMORE STAR NZ and HAPPY CAMPER racing patterns and ability. This was in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. J O'Shea pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge J O'Shea was found guilty. In assessing penalty stewards considered J O’Shea’s good driving record. Furthermore, consideration was given to the circumstances of the race and his personal circumstances. J O’Shea had his license suspended for 28 days.

A day later, more :) Leads to a few questions for mine. Hopefully one day they will be answered or at least explained.


Well, there you go, I did not have the 2nd part of the stewards report when I made my comments earlier, but I think they support my argument, I have now reconsidered my opinion, now having hopefully all the facts!....and believe both drivers should get 2 weeks for their respective over aggressive tactics.......it appears from the report J O'Shea feels he did no wrong.........it was his presumption from knowledge of the other horse, that he drove in this manner, believing he would get the lead!.......the lesson!........you cannot make presumptions in racing.........don't forget you are dealing with the minds of trotting drivers!!!

[Thevoiceofreason]

Well, there you go, I did not have the 2nd part of the stewards report when I made my comments earlier, but I think they support my argument, I have now reconsidered my opinion, now having hopefully all the facts!....and believe both drivers should get 2 weeks for their respective over aggressive tactics.......it appears from the report J O'Shea feels he did no wrong.........it was his presumption from knowledge of the other horse, that he drove in this manner, believing he would get the lead!.......the lesson!........you cannot make presumptions in racing.........don't forget you are dealing with the minds of trotting drivers!!!

If the stewards start giving only 2 weeks for theses types of drives, they may as well stop having inquiries.

[The Form Student]

Give me a break, both drivers over did their tactics, one horse broke (which happens quite often) and the other only got beaten 13.3 metres......fines and 2 weeks, 6 weeks for that is over 10% of their annual available driving opportunities and income......that is too much for this incident! How often do 2 or 3 drivers come out of the gate attacking for the lead in the first 400 metres????????.......Answer - PLENTY.........my response is 2 weeks is sufficient.......if you were docked 6 weeks wages because you made a mistake at work, you would be spitting chips! I would prefer higher penalties for when someone actually gets knocked down! I Dornauf knocked down 2 horses at Menangle last Saturday night, sent someone to hospital, and got 21 days......both are racing incidents.......it wasn't as though they were hitting each other over the head with their whips!

[The Form Student]

Moreover, I now want every driver that leads and gets beaten by more than 14 metres to be given 6 weeks, because that is what happened here!

[Thevoiceofreason]

Give me a break, both drivers over did their tactics, one horse broke (which happens quite often) and the other only got beaten 13.3 metres......fines and 2 weeks, 6 weeks for that is over 10% of their annual available driving opportunities and income......that is too much for this incident! How often do 2 or 3 drivers come out of the gate attacking for the lead in the first 400 metres????????.......Answer - PLENTY.........my response is 2 weeks is sufficient.......if you were docked 6 weeks wages because you made a mistake at work, you would be spitting chips! I would prefer higher penalties for when someone actually gets knocked down! I Dornauf knocked down 2 horses at Menangle last Saturday night, sent someone to hospital, and got 21 days......both are racing incidents.......it wasn't as though they were hitting each other over the head with their whips!

In my view the point here is, the manner in which these two horses were driven when compared to their previous starts.

Happy Camper had not been driven like this recently and the previous week handed up very early on to a favored runner, this drive was in complete contrast as he had the opportunity to adopt the exact same tactic, a cynic might say Happy Camper was only out there to only beat the favorite, and in my view this makes the drive unacceptable, if on the other hand Happy Camper had made any attempt to hold the lead in previous races that puts an entirely different view on this race and drive.

Kenmore Star at its previous winning run was only even off the arm, came around to the death and when the leader showed the slightest intention to hold was happy to sit parked and as I said won the race. If J O'Shea had adopted a similar tactic on this night rather than pushing on until he galloped or dropped on Happy Campers back when he showed he was holding, not only would there not have been a suspension there would not even have been an inquiry into his drive. T Rue may have still have been questioned into a COT however.

When assessing tactics stewards should always look at the respective recent tactics of the runners involved, doing that in this circumstance, I think left them with little option other than to find both drives unacceptable in the circumstances of this race.

I did not have a bet so no bias here but can I ask ... Did you look at the replays of their recent runs before forming a view, I am only interested because I did.

[The Form Student]

VOR, I watch most races at least 2-3 times, at it's previous start Happy Camper (HC) gave up the lead to it's stablemate, Navarda Ace, the odds on favourite, then came out in the straight and got beaten HFHD.........not a bad run, 2nd beaten a lip at your previous run!..........if you look at HC's form it has been on the improve.............why not hold the lead and you might be able to bluff the other drivers into letting you get a slow quarter or so and have a good winning chance!

If you go back to the 15th February you will see that HC, driven by T Rue gave up the lead to Imposing Sign, driven by J O'Shea, who went onto win, and HC was beaten only 6 metres. This could have been in the back of J O'Shea's mind on the night.....sometimes familiarity breeds contempt!

So, obviously J O'shea had the perception that he could get the lead off HC with Kenmore Star (KS), but why should HC give up the lead......even though he has at his past few starts.....as I said HC's form has been on the improve and maybe that camp thought they would hold the lead tonight........Re, COT, this would not be necessary as HC went forward as usual, but held the lead.............if J O'Shea had not presumed the lead was his for the taking, and drove desperately to get it, this matter would not be under enquiry, and also KS broke and it was the favourite.........if every runner has to stereo-type their tactics in a race we should give it away..........I think it was great that we had a very competitive tussle for the lead, unfortunately KS broke..........yes both drivers over did their respective tactics........but in the end HC only got beat 13.3 metres, I know there were 2 slow quarters run, and he should be fined for them, but 6 weeks for getting beat 13.3 metres, you'll have to excuse me, but that is a joke...........2 weeks plus slow speed fine, and 2 weeks for J O'Shea also, but he is the major contributor to the enquiry!

There is an old saying in this country....."that possession is 9 points of the law"........T Rue on HC had possession of the lead, and it was his right to decide what he did with it.........J O'Shea had a decision to make about whether to try and take possession of that lead, and he chose to vigourously attack for it, which brought both horses undone!

I have a pet hate sometimes and that is drivers conceding the lead because the "favourite" wants it.....I also hate when a driver with no conceivable hope but to give his horse some chance by taking a sit, but decides to hold the lead against all attackers!........sometimes there is a fine line between the two options!!

I am not sure if either have appealed, but the sentence is too severe.....for 2 guys giving it there best shot!

[The Form Student]

Bathurst Race Meeting Friday 9 th March 2012 - Race 9 Gold Crown Heats Buffet 23 March Pace – 2130M
Stewards today continued their inquiries into the running and handling of KENMORE STAR NZ by driver J O’Shea. After considering all available evidence J O’Shea was charged under AHR Rule 149(2) which reads “A driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of Stewards is unacceptable.” The particulars being that J O’Shea challenged HAPPY CAMPER for the lead from the 1950 metres and until approaching the 1500 metres when it was made clear during that challenge that Mr Trent Rue the driver HAPPY CAMPER intended to maintain the lead. T Rue made this intention clear on several occasions and despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ aggressively which contributed to a fast lead time and resulted in KENMORE STAR NZ racing well forward of the main body of the field. The challenge for the lead persisted although J O’Shea had knowledge of the racing pattern of HAPPY CAMPER and was surprised with the tactics of HAPPY CAMPER on this occasion which he found unusual. Despite this J O’Shea continued to drive KENMORE STAR NZ with vigour for a significant distance in an attempt to obtain the lead and not employ his initiative particularly with his familiarity of both KENMORE STAR NZ and HAPPY CAMPER racing patterns and ability. This was in the opinion of Stewards was unacceptable. J O'Shea pleaded not guilty. After considering his submissions in defence of the charge J O'Shea was found guilty. In assessing penalty stewards considered J O’Shea’s good driving record. Furthermore, consideration was given to the circumstances of the race and his personal circumstances. J O’Shea had his license suspended for 28 days.

Here is the final piece to the stewards report...........in the end, T Rue given 6 weeks, and J O'Shea 4 weeks........If J O'Shea was not the major contributor, I will give it away...........2 weeks each and let's get on with it!

[Triple V]

Steve, in so far as the way different people see a race, can you watch the replay of Race 3 at Menangle last Saturday and tell me who you think is at fault there...as in from the point of release to around about the half? I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer by the way, rather I'm just interested in how others saw it. I also don't think it was suspicious in any way. The homework done prior to the driving instructions being given was severely lacking, IMO, but it wasn't dodgy as such.

[The Form Student]

Steve, in so far as the way different people see a race, can you watch the replay of Race 3 at Menangle last Saturday and tell me who you think is at fault there...as in from the point of release to around about the half? I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer by the way, rather I'm just interested in how others saw it. I also don't think it was suspicious in any way. The homework done prior to the driving instructions being given was severely lacking, IMO, but it wasn't dodgy as such.

The only point I can make is that Well Caught Marsh is a very fast beginner from the mobile, and holds the lead when it can in QLD, it was drawn inside Deadsetlucky and was able to hold it out for the lead, 25.3 the first quarter (Fred said.."fastest ever at Menangle") Deadsetlucky also a super fast beginner and usually can cross and lead at Menangle from any gate!........A match race for the fast beginners to the first turn........and that's what we got! Being drawn outside of the other horse Deadsetlucky, needed an extra length to cross, and at 25.3, I don't know where that was going to come from? I thought what a great speed duel between the pair, there was no room either for Deadsetlucky to pull in behind after the first turn..........So we ended up with an exciting race, and the "swoopers" appeared on the scene and won the race! I have no problems at all with how things panned out! Perhaps J Alchin should have looked up the form of the interstate guest!

[Thevoiceofreason]

If as you suggest these penalties are over the top, no doubt they will be appealed and then we will see how others see it.

In relation to your COT comment that is exactly when the rule is used when a horse normally hands up is driven to hold the top at all costs, it is the perfect of example of a change of tactics.

[The Form Student]

If as you suggest these penalties are over the top, no doubt they will be appealed and then we will see how others see it.

In relation to your COT comment that is exactly when the rule is used when a horse normally hands up is driven to hold the top at all costs, it is the perfect of example of a change of tactics.

The COT rule should be thrown out the window!............it should only be whether you are going forward or restraining........I don't see a lot of difference between going forward, and going forward and giving up the lead.......it all depends on how the race pans out and the opposition tactics and horsepower........At Menangle this week there was a COT announced for a runner that it would be restrained at the start and race with cover...........Well, guess what......straight to the lead!...So what happens in this case??? There was a runner at Bankstown on Thursday that held the lead, and was attacked by other runners for the lead....held the lead and ran last!!...beaten 24 meteres, this horse had no form and was big odds...........Why doesn't this driver get the 6 weeks as did T Rue & J O'Shea........at this point there has been no stewards report released for this meeting, so I don't know the outcome? Back to the original race if Kenmor Star did not break when challenging for the lead there would have been nothing said! Don't you agree, that we don't know what would have resulted if KS had not galloped, and that Happy Camper only getting beaten 13.3 metres, I didn't get beaten out of sight!...... this says that my horse went really well in the circumstances, and I was justified in holding the lead????? Please tell me where I am going wrong??? Please explain the other 2 situations I mentioned, and what will and should happen in those cases? I can go back and fill in the details, but these were just 2 incidents that stuck in my mind this week!

[Thevoiceofreason]

I feel that there would have been an inquiry into the Bathurst race but I may be wrong.

To be honest we will never know because they are not the circumstances that eventuated. A good rule of thumb in these circumstances is if an impartial observer might think "whats going on here" that is when stewards should investigate, so what went on can be explained.

I think watching Bathurst it was easy to have that thought especially when the horses recent tactics are considered.

It will surprise many but personally I am not a fan of the COT rules all I have done in the past is say it should be applied consistently and I have any many debates on here with VVV as to that, so be clear I do not like the concept, having said that, I do think it is applied consistently.

I would be happy to offer an opinion on the two examples you have mentioned just list the races and I will have a look and give a view, in general terms though the COT rule and announcement is always accompanied by "if circumstances permit", for example if you are a leader going to take cover but still go forward you are not expected to run a 36 quarter if nothing challenges you for the lead just to get cover, likewise if you are going back and there is just no speed and you are caught 3 deep without cover and puling you would not be found in breach if you then went forward, as these are circumstances of the race and therefore it would be found circumstances did not permit the intended change.

There will be no need for VVV to remind me he found one or two examples where the stewards in NSW got the COT's wrong in July or August last year and as I said then from time to time they will make a blue or miss something but as punters we should be aware that can happen, we miss most winners most weeks,

[Triple V]

The only point I can make is that Well Caught Marsh is a very fast beginner from the mobile, and holds the lead when it can in QLD, it was drawn inside Deadsetlucky and was able to hold it out for the lead, 25.3 the first quarter (Fred said.."fastest ever at Menangle") Deadsetlucky also a super fast beginner and usually can cross and lead at Menangle from any gate!........A match race for the fast beginners to the first turn........and that's what we got! Being drawn outside of the other horse Deadsetlucky, needed an extra length to cross, and at 25.3, I don't know where that was going to come from? I thought what a great speed duel between the pair, there was no room either for Deadsetlucky to pull in behind after the first turn..........So we ended up with an exciting race, and the "swoopers" appeared on the scene and won the race! I have no problems at all with how things panned out! Perhaps J Alchin should have looked up the form of the interstate guest!

[VVV] For mine there's a HUGE time & a fair class difference though don't you think?
1:53.8 under no pressure and just dictating terms off the front up at Albion Park to me is a whole world away from a leaving the gate stamped urgent 25.3 opener through to a 54 & a piece half and ultimately a 1:51 & a piece mile at Menangle. Viewed in that light, the apparent instructions to Mick Formosa to hold were a bit presumptuous to say the least. Deadsetlucky was always going to leave for the front or if it wasn't there straight away he was coming knocking early & forcefully. For the trainer of Well Caught Marsh to expect the horse be able to park out Deadsetlucky to the half and live to tell the tale was well wide of the mark, IMO. The instructions to hold with Well Caught Marsh gave the horse no chance at all...as I see it anyway.

[Triple V]

There will be no need for VVV to remind me he found one or two examples where the stewards in NSW got the COT's wrong in July or August last year and as I said then from time to time they will make a blue or miss something but as punters we should be aware that can happen, we miss most winners most weeks,

[VVV] Hey, don't go roping me into this. I've been sitting quietly on the sidelines. :rolleyes:

[The Form Student]

[VVV] For mine there's a HUGE time & a fair class difference though don't you think?
1:53.8 under no pressure and just dictating terms off the front up at Albion Park to me is a whole world away from a leaving the gate stamped urgent 25.3 opener through to a 54 & a piece half and ultimately a 1:51 & a piece mile at Menangle. Viewed in that light, the apparent instructions to Mick Formosa to hold were a bit presumptuous to say the least. Deadsetlucky was always going to leave for the front or if it wasn't there straight away he was coming knocking early & forcefully. For the trainer of Well Caught Marsh to expect the horse be able to park out Deadsetlucky to the half and live to tell the tale was well wide of the mark, IMO. The instructions to hold with Well Caught Marsh gave the horse no chance at all...as I see it anyway.

Once again reputation doesn't always prevail! Deadset had no rights to the lead and got beaten to the lead on his merit in "track record " time for the 1st 400 metres - 25.3 secs. I don't understand why you say that expect to live and tell the tale by holding out Deadset is not true......obviously J Alchin had only one thing in his repertoire for Deadset, to lead at all cost, once that didn't happen he didn't think it was time to grab hold and drive like a "church mouse" from there on, and give himself to try again in the straight! There are a lot of drivers that think the winning post is in the "back straight", it is not and they need to consider their tactics.........2 of the most prolific winning drivers at Menangle are L McCarthy & D Thorn, they are usually not aiming up beyond reasonableness, but keeping something back for the home straight! At the end of the day in the race in question, there was only 5 metres separating both horses! Let's call it a draw?

[Thevoiceofreason]

[VVV] Hey, don't go roping me into this. I've been sitting quietly on the sidelines. :rolleyes:

Just wanted to be on the front foot I did not like the ease of you last wins over me.

[The Form Student]

I feel that there would have been an inquiry into the Bathurst race but I may be wrong.

To be honest we will never know because they are not the circumstances that eventuated. A good rule of thumb in these circumstances is if an impartial observer might think "whats going on here" that is when stewards should investigate, so what went on can be explained.

I think watching Bathurst it was easy to have that thought especially when the horses recent tactics are considered.

It will surprise many but personally I am not a fan of the COT rules all I have done in the past is say it should be applied consistently and I have any many debates on here with VVV as to that, so be clear I do not like the concept, having said that, I do think it is applied consistently.

I would be happy to offer an opinion on the two examples you have mentioned just list the races and I will have a look and give a view, in general terms though the COT rule and announcement is always accompanied by "if circumstances permit", for example if you are a leader going to take cover but still go forward you are not expected to run a 36 quarter if nothing challenges you for the lead just to get cover, likewise if you are going back and there is just no speed and you are caught 3 deep without cover and puling you would not be found in breach if you then went forward, as these are circumstances of the race and therefore it would be found circumstances did not permit the intended change.

There will be no need for VVV to remind me he found one or two examples where the stewards in NSW got the COT's wrong in July or August last year and as I said then from time to time they will make a blue or miss something but as punters we should be aware that can happen, we miss most winners most weeks,

I have now viewed the original race replay again several times, and wish to rescind my original decision!..........I now believe Mr T Rue should be exonerated completely and immediately, with an apology from the stewards that presided over the enquiry, and the decision to suspend him for 6 weeks!.........in the relevant race Happy Camper began brillliantly form barrier 7, and crossed the field easily, and was a "bit fired up" in the lead! I believe Kenmore Star did not show enough speed to take the lead off Happy Camper, ........ unless T Rue restained his horse very abruptly, which I suggest he really should not be doing, otherwise we may have had 2 horse breaking and then a "Royal Commission" into the incident would have been ordered!.......In it's 2 subsequent runs Happy Camper has started off the 2nd line once, and ran on strongly from a deep rails position, and today at Dubbo where it was drawn gate 1 it was aimed up for the lead very vigourously by Blake Jones, but was crossed for the lead, HC then sat behind the leader and came out in the straight and fought on very well for 2nd place! Perhaps the stewards and punters whom believed it should always take a sit are mistaken........as I said previously in comments, the horses form has been on the improve in recent runs, perhaps the horse has "seasoned" up this time in!

[Danno]

I think it might be time for this............




The Riders in the Stand
There's some that ride the Robbo style, and bump at every stride;
While others sit a long way back, to get a longer ride.
There's some that ride like sailors do, with legs and arms, and teeth;
And some ride on the horse's neck, and some ride underneath.
But all the finest horsemen out -- the men to Beat the Band --
You'll find amongst the crowd that ride their races in the Stand.
They'll say "He had the race in hand, and lost it in the straight."
They'll show how Godby came too soon, and Barden came too late.
They'll say Chevalley lost his nerve, and Regan lost his head;
They'll tell how one was "livened up" and something else was "dead" --
In fact, the race was never run on sea, or sky, or land,
But what you'd get it better done by riders in the Stand.
The rule holds good in everything in life's uncertain fight;
You'll find the winner can't go wrong, the loser can't go right.
You ride a slashing race, and lose -- by one and all you're banned!
Ride like a bag of flour, and win -- they'll cheer you in the Stand.
Banjo Patterson.

[Triple V]

Beautiful stuff Danno. Many thanks. Ride like a bag of flour, and win...a magic visual that.

[barney]

I see where one of the drivers involved in the 1st post on this thread Nathan Jack has just got 6 weeks for not giving his horse every chance at a Mildura meeting.

Source stewards wrap on harness .org.

Is it just me but he seems to be always involved in controversy
Glen Douglas got 4 for same reason

[aussiebreno]

Neither...just common sense both issues got dealt with round the same time.

[aussiebreno]

]
There's nothing odd about it....??

[The Form Student]

Hey Aussie, what have you been up to? Getting edited, were you being a naughty boy?

[The Form Student]

Hey, just noticed you are 1,000 posts ahead of me, make that 999 now!

[aussiebreno]

Hey Aussie, what have you been up to? Getting edited, were you being a naughty boy?
Hmm don't know whats gone on. Both my posts remain unchanged, apart from Teecee deleting where I quoted him. Teecee has deleted his posts and deleted where I quoted him but left my posts...even though they make no sense now he has deleted his posts and quotes. Back to 1000 lol.

[broncobrad]

In relation to the Rue/O'Shea race, I have stayed out of the debate to see what others have thought and it seems we all seem to have differing opinions on what occurred and what, if any penaltys should have been handed down.

The first thing I would like to say is at last some action was taken on ridiculous tactics. Week in week out, we witness drives that at best are ordinary and nothing is said. The stewards finally acted. What gets me is the lack of consistency in applying penaltys that fits these drives. My personal grandstand opinion is Trent has no real case to answer, he was not hunting his steed along like O'Shea to hold his position. At worst 7 - 14 days, but like Formie said, why hand up to short priced favourites and let them dictate. Trents horse was still was giving on the line. I think the stewards have gone soft on O'Shea. He has undoubtably given his horse no reasonable chance of winning by pursuing the lead position when it was not up for grabs. He had ample opportunity to take a sit but chose to drive like he was at the Coliseum. Are the stewards not confident enough in laying more serious charges that deserves harsher penaltys? If they think that laying a charge of an unacceptable drive is appropriate for this kind of drive IMO, then they are treating the punters with contempt. There is no integrity in these charges.

So in the wash up O'Shea gets 4 weeks which he appealed. I keep going back to the Panella drive, 3 weeks for not taking a run in the straight, which IMO was borderline unsafe to do so....So 4 weeks, horse breaks, fav out of race and heavily backed horse wins versus 3 weeks for not causing carnage.

Is that supposed to be CONSISTENCY??? As a footnote Kenmore Star, trained and driven by M Butler raced at Dubbo 4/4/12 in a 1,320m race and finished 2nd. Driven much more patiently until the top turn when he took the legs of the death horse and the driver gets 2 weeks. CONSISTENCY??? This horse is becoming a magnet for drama. Replay http://www.trotstv.com.au/?mc=DU040412&rn=6

[Thevoiceofreason]

In relation to the Rue/O'Shea race, I have stayed out of the debate to see what others have thought and it seems we all seem to have differing opinions on what occurred and what, if any penaltys should have been handed down.

The first thing I would like to say is at last some action was taken on ridiculous tactics. Week in week out, we witness drives that at best are ordinary and nothing is said. The stewards finally acted. What gets me is the lack of consistency in applying penaltys that fits these drives. My personal grandstand opinion is Trent has no real case to answer, he was not hunting his steed along like O'Shea to hold his position. At worst 7 - 14 days, but like Formie said, why hand up to short priced favourites and let them dictate. Trents horse was still was giving on the line. I think the stewards have gone soft on O'Shea. He has undoubtably given his horse no reasonable chance of winning by pursuing the lead position when it was not up for grabs. He had ample opportunity to take a sit but chose to drive like he was at the Coliseum. Are the stewards not confident enough in laying more serious charges that deserves harsher penaltys? If they think that laying a charge of an unacceptable drive is appropriate for this kind of drive IMO, then they are treating the punters with contempt. There is no integrity in these charges.

So in the wash up O'Shea gets 4 weeks which he appealed. I keep going back to the Panella drive, 3 weeks for not taking a run in the straight, which IMO was borderline unsafe to do so....So 4 weeks, horse breaks, fav out of race and heavily backed horse wins versus 3 weeks for not causing carnage.

Is that supposed to be CONSISTENCY??? As a footnote Kenmore Star, trained and driven by M Butler raced at Dubbo 4/4/12 in a 1,320m race and finished 2nd. Driven much more patiently until the top turn when he took the legs of the death horse and the driver gets 2 weeks. CONSISTENCY??? This horse is becoming a magnet for drama. Replay http://www.trotstv.com.au/?mc=DU040412&rn=6


Charges under 149 are miniumum of 4 weeks and should always stay that way, either charge and give them a penalty or do not lay a charge.

In relation to Panella with the greatest of respect without seeing the head on you can not form an accurate opinion of the room or lack of, I have not see it and you may have, however the judge most certinally did and he and dismissed her appeal, for what that is worth, in the past they the judges have let plenty off on this rule for what looked worse drives. So perhaps it looks bad on the head on,

[The Form Student]

Well folks!, we will all get to see the re-run tonight at Bathurst.........Happy Camper drawn 2, and Kenmore Star drawn 3...........can't wait!

[Danno]

Well folks!, we will all get to see the re-run tonight at Bathurst.........Happy Camper drawn 2, and Kenmore Star drawn 3...........can't wait!

But with completely different pilots for both Steve, I doubt there'll be a re-run....... as i said earlier about that race there appeared to be a bit more than " on the night tactics" at stake.

cheers,
Dan

[The Form Student]

But with completely different pilots for both Steve, I doubt there'll be a re-run....... as i said earlier about that race there appeared to be a bit more than " on the night tactics" at stake.

cheers,
Dan

Well, well, well, well, well!.........the race is run, and Happy Camper leads throughout and WINS!........Kenmore Star broke again!..........I almost thought I was watching a replay of the same race again..........I hope the stewards have immediately exonerated MR T RUE, and apologised to him for their error, and given him bonus points for the next time he is pullled into the stewards room! As for Kenmore Star, this is the 3rd start in a row it has galloped! I think it will be required to trial satisfactorily! So, in hindsight Mr T Rue, has to have his appeal upheld, if there is any fairness! Don't you agree??

[Danno]

Well, well, well, well, well!.........the race is run, and Happy Camper leads throughout and WINS!........Kenmore Star broke again!..........I almost thought I was watching a replay of the same race again..........I hope the stewards have immediately exonerated MR T RUE, and apologised to him for their error, and given him bonus points for the next time he is pullled into the stewards room! As for Kenmore Star, this is the 3rd start in a row it has galloped! I think it will be required to trial satisfactorily! So, in hindsight Mr T Rue, has to have his appeal upheld, if there is any fairness! Don't you agree??

Glad you said almost there Steve, the tactics employed with Kenmore Star were vastly different to the previous clash, yes he did gallop again but not because he was getting revved up into the first corner again.
Good to see Happer Camper get another win up, he appears to be getting a bit stronger with age, we are breeding from older half sister to him we bought a few years ago, any win by another member of the family is a good thing as far as we are concerned.

Cheers,
Dan

[broncobrad]

In regard to the stewards reaching their findings, they would be derelict in their duty if they did not look at previous driving patterns of the horses concerned. But they should still remain open minded and COMPLETELY objective whilst inquiring into the original race that raised all the questions. Trent in my opinion was entitled to do as much as he did to repulse O'Sheas unacceptable challenge. O'Shea was the major contributor into the downfall of both horses that night and should have had much of the blame apportioned and penaltys directed at him. IMO stronger charges should have been laid but were not. ERGO the lack of faith the average punter has in the sport. ERGO the lack of credibility and integrity the sport has in the average punters mind. We are all waiting patiently for integrity to be applied in disqualifications/suspensions that are handed down, not raps over knuckles or inconsistent rulings or incorrect rulings full stop. In a couple of weeks time Lukes boldenone case comes up. It will be interesting to see how that pans out in light of the recent disqualification of Barry Lew...but I digress.

Formie says Trent has no case to answer, I too think he is blameless in this case and should have his appeal upheld. I originally did not think Rue should have been charged and was suprised he was. When I first saw it, all I could see was a short priced fav being murdered and its not a good look.

On the upside have to thank Steve for pointing out they were racing last night, would have missed it otherwise. Thought the Camper was nearly a moral because surely they were not going to take him on again. He got a comfy lead and had a nice kick left in him on the corner. Took $7.50 fixed odds (even tho' he finished up about $9 fixed odds but only paid about $5 on the tote). On the downside, Kenmore Stars got too many tricks in his locker to a be horse you could ever back with confidence again...I am sure his foodbill is paid for by the bookies, they must love him.:rolleyes:

[Thevoiceofreason]

I have just made a call to the Bankstown Bunker to get the results of the Trent Rue and John O'Shea drives we have been debating.

The Appeals were set down for yesterday.

The detailed findings are not yet available however so i will not speculate on the Judges actual reasons behind his decisions but here goes

Trent Rue appeal dismissed and penalty varied from 6 weeks back to 28 days, his appeal fee was forfeited.

John O'Shea appeal dismissed and penalty increased from 28 days to 6 weeks, his appeal fee was forfeited and he was ordered to pay additional costs of $250.

So it does not look like any apologies will be required by the stewards who made the original decisions, I always said the appeal results would be interesting.

[broncobrad]

Have just had a read through the John O'Shea appeal findings recently posted. http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files/Appeal%20Decisions/OShea%20decision%20170412.pdf Even though the case has now well and truly been finalised, a few interesting points come to light. As TVOR states the penalty was varied from four to six weeks. In pages 6 and 7 the tribunal outlines how it disagrees with the stewards view of O'Shea having a good driving history. He has held a driving licence since 2004, had over 3,000 drives, but has been suspended on 19 PREVIOUS OCCASSIONS, including two findings of misconduct...my point here is how often do we see penaltys reduced by stewards because of good driving historys that are littered by driving offences. Just what does define a good driving history and the jurisdiction an appellant is being tried under is a bit blurry.

In relation to the submission of costs, it is quite clear that if an appeal is frivolous/vexatious you can expect to have costs awarded against you. Apart from the fact Mr O'Shea considers it ridiculous and did not know about it, despite all documents explaining the same having been forwarded to him outlining what would be expected of him if his appeal failed, the Tribunal have accepted ignorance and self representation as mitigating circumstances in not awarding the full costs of proceedings which may have been up to approx $2,400, instead fining him only $500 less his appeal of $250 being forfeited. What a joke. John has not brought one bit of new evidence to the hearing, calls the whole thing ridiculous, represents himself and pleads ignorance to the finer points of the implications a failed appeal means to him. How does that not make it a frivolous appeal? I'm not having a shot at John, he did cop an extra two weeks. There were calls on this forum only a few months ago to free up the appeals process and this is the sort of defence (no defence) that is chewing up valuable harness racing finances. Hope Mr Nati has got some plans to knock this crap on the head. How about if a driver is racing on a stay of proceedings and loses their appeal and the appeal is proven to be frivolous, why not extend their vacation by the length of their stay of proceedings. That is only a suggestion, but something needs to be done if the stewards are going to be able to make decisions without fear of watching them crumble at a Tribunal hearing.

[Thevoiceofreason]

There are some interesting points you raise Brad.

Whilst John O'Shea was deemed by the judge to not have a good record I feel the stewards would not have considered interference charges and conduct charges when dealing with a breach under rule 149, whilst the judge is able to consider what he wishes these are not matters that stewards of any code would have normally considered.

I think every racing jurisdiction would love to implement your suggestion to stop people rorting the appeals and stay of proceedings system but it is not that easy The gallops in Victoria and NSW have it under control by having their appeals within days of the offence being proven, given the appeals system in NSW harness this is simply not achievable.

HRNSW are however leading the way with many drivers and trainers now not being granted a stay simply because they apply.

This is away from the norm and HRNSW need to be congratulated for taking the ball up hard on this issue. It would I am sure require a lot of work to convince the judge that a stay should not be granted so clearly they HRNSW are working hard to get confidence back into the integrity side of the industry.

[The Form Student]

I hope you all saw Kenmore Star gallop again tonight at Dubbo and cause a fall! As for the appeals decisions, yes, J O'shea obviously did not know how to present himself for an appeal, and lost out. T Rue, must be the unluckiest driver out there to be stood down over this matter.........all the tribunal judges said was that unless you can prove the steward in charge made an error the case is proven.............when evidence is submitted, they dismiss it without comment!.........However, in the J O'Shea case the judging panel said the stewards were in error saying that J O'Shea had a good driving record........on what basis do they come up with that?.......they did not qualify this remark.......the judging panel contradicts itself........why wouldn't someone appeal when the whole lot of them are incompetent!...........To crap on about what would Joe Blow in the public think about what happened in the race is a concern........if they could not understand what happened, then there needs to be an inquiry held, is just plain rubbish.........I suggest we then have a member of the public on every stewards panel to make sure everytime a favourite gets beat there needs to be an enquiry!......to be honest, the knowledge they all have could be written down on the "knuckle of a canary"! If I was T Rue or any other driver, I would not compete in a race that Kenmore Star was in...........and I would not be getting behind it until it learns to pace!......the stewards have done nothing to solve the Kenmore Star breaking problem..........it should be stood down for 5 trials minimum..........???
To be honest there was an opportunity to rectify the initial wrong decision, but they blew it! For the record, I would not know T Rue if he was sitting opposite me right now!

[broncobrad]

Wondered what happened to him tonight, thanks for posting that Steve. I saw a couple of them milling around and a bit later noticed the race was abandoned and then thought, did he cause a problem from the one. Like I said before, this horse has got too many tricks up his sleeve. His owners must be pulling their hair out.

Glad you read the appeal findings. It struck me as it did you, that they look at the race with "what would a reasonable minded spectator with some racing knowledge think or expect" (or words to that effect). These guys are supposed to be operating on the assumption that the stewards impressions are from an expert point of view and any decisions that the Tribunal makes should be based SOLELY on what the expert opinion is that is before them. That to me would be the professional position that any ruling body should be making any rulings or decisions on. Not what Joe Blow thinks. We are not the judge or jury, nor do we have any input that should influence what the Tribunal thinks. Deadset bloody well bewildering I reckon. Have not got a bone in my body that will ever understand how the law works, but I know the diff between right and wrong and what is passed off as justice, and the decisions in this case just don't make sense.

And I still don't think Trent had much of a case to answer.

[The Form Student]

You said it better than I did, because I was angry about the decision in the first instance and then when I watched the race and saw Kenmore Star begin fairly from the 1 and was crossed by the 2, and landed 1-1, then Amanda Turnbull decided to go and sit outside the lead, the horse appeared to be travelling well and then broke for no apparent reason....causing a chain reaction and one of the horses following hit the deck........KS recovered and then was sent 3 wide before the race was called off!
Re, Trent, the stewards and any one else had their chance to see Happy Camper come out and lead and beat KS (with it galloping again) after this, they had a 2nd chance and did not believe their eyes.........the only case against Trent was that the lead time was too fast at 37.5 secs in the eyes of the steward.......not that it only got beaten 13 metres after overdoing it so much early? As I said initially, every leader that get's beaten by more than 13 metres, from now on, the driver should be given 6 weeks! That is the stupidity of this situation.
Let's move onto something else.......what about the last race at Maryborough last friday......can someone watch this race and tell me what they think??

http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/MHC27041204.mp4

[The Form Student]

Looks like I need to give you a hint..........I think the driver on the leader fell asleep!!!!!

[Greg Hando]

I hope you all saw Kenmore Star gallop again tonight at Dubbo and cause a fall! As for the appeals decisions, yes, J O'shea obviously did not know how to present himself for an appeal, and lost out. T Rue, must be the unluckiest driver out there to be stood down over this matter.........all the tribunal judges said was that unless you can prove the steward in charge made an error the case is proven.............when evidence is submitted, they dismiss it without comment!.........However, in the J O'Shea case the judging panel said the stewards were in error saying that J O'Shea had a good driving record........on what basis do they come up with that?.......they did not qualify this remark.......the judging panel contradicts itself........why wouldn't someone appeal when the whole lot of them are incompetent!...........To crap on about what would Joe Blow in the public think about what happened in the race is a concern........if they could not understand what happened, then there needs to be an inquiry held, is just plain rubbish.........I suggest we then have a member of the public on every stewards panel to make sure everytime a favourite gets beat there needs to be an enquiry!......to be honest, the knowledge they all have could be written down on the "knuckle of a canary"! If I was T Rue or any other driver, I would not compete in a race that Kenmore Star was in...........and I would not be getting behind it until it learns to pace!......the stewards have done nothing to solve the Kenmore Star breaking problem..........it should be stood down for 5 trials minimum..........???
To be honest there was an opportunity to rectify the initial wrong decision, but they blew it! For the record, I would not know T Rue if he was sitting opposite me right now!

Yes and the excuse was he hung in and hit a wheel. Brett Hutchings one of the driver's dislodged look's like being out for a long time suspected broken shoulder from it, scans will reveal all on Tuesday.

[broncobrad]

Looks like I need to give you a hint..........I think the driver on the leader fell asleep!!!!!

It looked like Greg was thinking about the taste of his first beer after the race, about the same time as his horse started to daydream and drift off the track. Sugars then fully focussed on getting his horses mind back on the job and straighten him up, totally unaware Madam Pom Pom was making her move. Just proves it can happen to the best of them. Judgement...asleep at the wheel.

[The Form Student]

It looked like Greg was thinking about the taste of his first beer after the race, about the same time as his horse started to daydream and drift off the track. Sugars then fully focussed on getting his horses mind back on the job and straighten him up, totally unaware Madam Pom Pom was making her move. Just proves it can happen to the best of them. Judgement...asleep at the wheel.

Absolutely, spot on! Stewards, never mentioned it in their report. Consistency, by stewards would be appreciated also!

[broncobrad]

Consistency is a word foreign to most panels of stewards, but as Brenno has pointed out in the past, how often is the final race of the day very light on in substance in the stewards reports. Are they all that much in a hurry to get home?