Dominatin

[murray green]

Regardless of how LM is winning his races . Is this domination good for harness racing ? LM is attracting most of the biggest owners in NSW and elsewhere . His buisness is flourishing . These are not new owners , to the industry , so it is having an unsustainable impact on the incomes of many participants as they loose their best horses and owners as well as driving fees and percentages . These people were already struggling and , if it continues , will most certainly reaccess their participation in this sport . As participants leave so do punters as most harness racing punters have a direct link to the sport . I know 3 people who have committed to leaving the industry this week . HRNSW has probably done those people they have stood down a favour . At least they won't hang around going broke . Every aspect of the industry is affected . I believe even yearling sale figures will cop a hiding this year as people loose interest . Such domination is called a monopoly and would spell an end for most buisnesses . This could be the straw that broke the camels back and , IMO , this industry will implode even quicker than it already is . Good luck to LM but please turn off the lights at Menangle Park when you leave .

[peteboss4]

Regardless of how LM is winning his races . Is this domination good for harness racing ? LM is attracting most of the biggest owners in NSW and elsewhere . His buisness is flourishing . These are not new owners , to the industry , so it is having an unsustainable impact on the incomes of many participants as they loose their best horses and owners as well as driving fees and percentages . These people were already struggling and , if it continues , will most certainly reaccess their participation in this sport . As participants leave so do punters as most harness racing punters have a direct link to the sport . I know 3 people who have committed to leaving the industry this week . HRNSW has probably done those people they have stood down a favour . At least they won't hang around going broke . Every aspect of the industry is affected . I believe even yearling sale figures will cop a hiding this year as people loose interest . Such domination is called a monopoly and would spell an end for most buisnesses . This could be the straw that broke the camels back and , IMO , this industry will implode even quicker than it already is . Good luck to LM but please turn off the lights at Menangle Park when you leave .

I read this with intrest & I never looked at it that way. How scarys that.

[murray green]

You don't realise that its their bread and butter . Do you?

[Amiacar]

Why would you race a horse in nsw ? Just to make up the field ....

[racefair]

Hi Murray, you raise an interesting question that's gaining momentum as a real problem.
In the short term we might see a few of these trainers change their business model and prepare horses for LM rather than race against him. It's probably the most demoralising thing that they can do however are left with little choice.
In regards to new interest and money into the game, then my opinion is that it will be short term until LM has enough capital to own all of his horse's. He's won over $800,000 already this season for his owners and would be thinking how he can get all of it. He'd have to be confident enough to start putting more of his own money in. I read an article recently about his brother coming over to train/drive at menangle which might support this.
So along with getting all of the revenue that he generates, he wouldn't have to report to owners.

[barney]

I remember when the Knights were dominating in Victoria not to the same extent, some good trainers started jogging up horses for Vinnie.This may happen again not a good scenario.

[tiny]

Everyone knows my thoughts on LM.

The way I see it. The standardbred has been evolving into a faster but weaker horses similar to TB in a lot of ways. Harness trainers have not changed their training methods for the past 20 years and now they are behind the eight ball not to an obvious extent until now. LM is so far advanced on any nsw trainer it's not funny. All the big owners no that and have moved there horses. That's always going to happin it's an open market.

In regards to people leaving the sport. When Harold park was sold harness racing changed there business plan. One of the long term problems for harness racing has been its inability to attract the punters dollars. One of the reasons is because of inconsistent form. Inconsistant results in alagations of wrong doing. Weekend warrior trainers and drivers can't deliver consistent form.

One of the key objectives was to attract interstate horses and trainers. That is why there have been large prize money increases at the top end but lower end country races have seen prize money stay the same or in some cases reduce.

Large numbers of small stables are hard for stewards to regulate (see other thread on disqualified persons) another reason the putters dollar has fallen.

So the future.
The clubs in Sydney need to be reduced to 2 now and 1 with in five years.
Country Clubs need to be reduced to 3 bathurst wagga and newcastle.
The number of nsw based drivers needs to be reduced to about 20 ( there is only 3 that cut it and 2 of those may or may not be back.
Sydney based trainers need to be reduced to about 10 and the interstate satellite stables at menangle.
The breeding industry needs to be killed off all our horses can be sourced from interstate and NZ as already racing stock.

So some may call it dominatatin but I tend to think of it as evolution. This will be the future and there is no room for hobby trainers and weekend warrior drivers so don't be worried about people leaving harness racing instead tell them to take a mate with them.

[triplev123]

G'day Andy,
As compared to years ago, I think today's breed is better gaited, more refined, obviously faster and I'd argue much sounder than its predecessors & with all that I just don't think they need to be drilled as much, as often and for as long in order to keep them fit. I also believe that there is a HUGE mental aspect to them...much like the TB's. Once they reach the point of race fitness and they're going fast miles each week, the aim is to keep them there but by way of doing as little as possible with them between outings, you have to keep them physically fit & just as crucially, mentally fit/sharp. I don't think that there's any more or any less to it than that but how exactly you would set out a program in order to achieve that, I really don't know. Less on the training track, more on the race track is pretty much about the size of it.

[Old Frank]

Everyone knows my thoughts on LM.

The way I see it. The standardbred has been evolving into a faster but weaker horses similar to TB in a lot of ways. Harness trainers have not changed their training methods for the past 20 years and now they are behind the eight ball not to an obvious extent until now. LM is so far advanced on any nsw trainer it's not funny. All the big owners no that and have moved there horses. That's always going to happin it's an open market.

In regards to people leaving the sport. When Harold park was sold harness racing changed there business plan. One of the long term problems for harness racing has been its inability to attract the punters dollars. One of the reasons is because of inconsistent form. Inconsistant results in alagations of wrong doing. Weekend warrior trainers and drivers can't deliver consistent form.

One of the key objectives was to attract interstate horses and trainers. That is why there have been large prize money increases at the top end but lower end country races have seen prize money stay the same or in some cases reduce.

Large numbers of small stables are hard for stewards to regulate (see other thread on disqualified persons) another reason the putters dollar has fallen.

So the future.
The clubs in Sydney need to be reduced to 2 now and 1 with in five years.
Country Clubs need to be reduced to 3 bathurst wagga and newcastle.
The number of nsw based drivers needs to be reduced to about 20 ( there is only 3 that cut it and 2 of those may or may not be back.
Sydney based trainers need to be reduced to about 10 and the interstate satellite stables at menangle.
The breeding industry needs to be killed off all our horses can be sourced from interstate and NZ as already racing stock.

So some may call it dominatatin but I tend to think of it as evolution. This will be the future and there is no room for hobby trainers and weekend warrior drivers so don't be worried about people leaving harness racing instead tell them to take a mate with them.


Great post and good food for thought. A lot of what's said is spot on.

The Driver issue is a massive one. I wrote to Harold Park over 10yrs ago imploring them to have a system like the Medowlands where it's somewhat a closed group of drivers.

Punters bet on consistency so the same core group of drivers going around promote consistency, coupled with consistent trainers and performing horses. The TAB put out a report some years ago saying how galloping punting (casual and small punter) was majority based around a favourite or particular rider. Somewhat like a Beadman in his heyday where his horses were sent out a couple of points under the odds due to his presence.

The current crop of drivers at Menangle classed as 'Metro' drivers are a disgrace, pure and simple. Most have no idea whatsoever on rating a horse or assessing form and this is why they get handled badly by quality drivers such as McCarthy.

Have you seen a Menangle (Bulli) or Bankstown Monday meeting or Tuesday Menangle meeting for driver quality - absolutely disgraceful. They have no posture or style in the cart, their bouncing around looking terrible, the horse must be wondering WTF is going on back there. Put a good driver on and the horse improves three (3) lengths instantly just by the fact some is relaxed on them and can steer and rate well. No wonder punters are steered off when they can't recognise 95% of who's going around or then watch the weekend warrior do his best (which is generally shit!).

Drivers should also have their own colours, irrespective of who their driving, exactly like the USA. It's easy to spot in a race and follow that driver consistently.

It is a so-called professional sport yet overrun with non-professionals, plain and simple.

Blokes are holding down regular jobs but then as weekend/morning warriors, are competing, yes because they love it but are generally training poor quality stock and in an amatuer fashion and then complain that they can't compete against the likes of McCarthy/Fitzpatrick etc like it's their right to win a race?

It's no one's right to train a horse and get freebie wins, it's a competitive industry and blokes like Luke are taking it seriously to the upmost in order to maximise his potential earnings from it, plain and simple.

Don't build a home computer and then complain that you can't get ahead of Apple...

[Old Frank]

G'day Andy,
As compared to years ago, I think today's breed is better gaited, more refined, obviously faster and I'd argue much sounder than its predecessors & with all that I just don't think they need to be drilled as much, as often and for as long in order to keep them fit. I also believe that there is a HUGE mental aspect to them...much like the TB's. Once they reach the point of race fitness and they're going fast miles each week, the aim is to keep them there but by way of doing as little as possible with them between outings, you have to keep them physically fit & just as crucially, mentally fit/sharp. I don't think that there's any more or any less to it than that but how exactly you would set out a program in order to achieve that, I really don't know. Less on the training track, more on the race track is pretty much about the size of it.

Another great post.

I spoke with an ex-pat Aussie trainer based in New Jersey back in 2005 about his training program and even at that time, work programs over there were VASTLY different to what I knew as accepted here and basically it was because they were spinning off 1.50 every race at the Big M and I remember him saying to me at the time, "son, you can't get them any fitter when their spinning of times like that every week, it's all about keeping maintained"

Not a truer word spoken. McCarthy's training techniques are spot on for the style of racing and importantly, style of horse we are breeding and competing with these days.

As a I said in another post the other day, no two (2) heats of two miles with jogging for 40minutes on off days, day in, day out monotony any more. What about some old trainers, three (3) heat hopple work, no way jose!

[peteboss4]

Great post and good food for thought. A lot of what's said is spot on.

The Driver issue is a massive one. I wrote to Harold Park over 10yrs ago imploring them to have a system like the Medowlands where it's somewhat a closed group of drivers.

Punters bet on consistency so the same core group of drivers going around promote consistency, coupled with consistent trainers and performing horses. The TAB put out a report some years ago saying how galloping punting (casual and small punter) was majority based around a favourite or particular rider. Somewhat like a Beadman in his heyday where his horses were sent out a couple of points under the odds due to his presence.

The current crop of drivers at Menangle classed as 'Metro' drivers are a disgrace, pure and simple. Most have no idea whatsoever on rating a horse or assessing form and this is why they get handled badly by quality drivers such as McCarthy.

Have you seen a Menangle (Bulli) or Bankstown Monday meeting or Tuesday Menangle meeting for driver quality - absolutely disgraceful. No wonder punters are steered off when they can't recognise 95% of who's going around. Drivers should also have their own colours, irrespective of who their driving, exactly like the USA. It's easy to spot in a race and follow that driver consistently.

It is a so-called professional sport yet over run with non-professionals, plain and simple.

Blokes are holding down regular jobs as weekend/morning warriors, yes because they love it, but yet training poor quality stock and in an amatuer fashion and then complain they can't compete against the likes of McCarthy/Fitzpatrick etc like it's their right to win a race? It's no one's right to train a horse and get freebie wins, it's a competitive industry and blokes like Luke are taking it seriously to the upmost in order to maximise his potential earnings from it, plain and simple.

Don't build a home computer and then complain that you can't get ahead of Apple...
Agree with the driver issue 100%. Lets hope they CAN do something about it, maybe grade it, i just dont know.
And yes LM is taking it seriously very seriously, so what happens when most owners move over to him, of cause he maximises his earnings but i dont agree its plain & simple, because as LMs stable gets bigger & bigger (maybe with Andy & Todd) what happens then, other trainers WILL be forced to leave. They will not be able to afford to stay, no big owners, no winners = no money.
Also this industry is not big enough to have it "professional" ( i too wish that) but its not, just have a look around on race nights, days etc, that will show you the reason why it is not.




\\.

[peteboss4]

Why would you race a horse in nsw ? Just to make up the field ....

NO but lots are if LMs in the race, someone said he had 100% the other night, I looked up Maitland & apparently would have had 80% if one hadn't been knocked down.

[mightymo]

NO but lots are if LMs in the race, someone said he had 100% the other night, I looked up Maitland & apparently would have had 80% if one hadn't been knocked down.

How many trainers are prepared to travel like Luke so that they can place their horses in the most suitable race.

Last year I told Luke I wanted Sixpence to be set for the Red Ochre at Dubbo. He said no problem. He got home at 3am and was up at 7am getting ready to take horses to Goulburn the next day.

Way too many trainers are just too lazy and expect good horses to land in their laps. How many trainers are prepared to put their own skin the game and buy a piece of a horse? How many trainers will have open days at their stables to attract new clients?? How many trainers have up to date websites?? How many trainers get to the yearling sales and inspect all the lots??

Sadly, the answer to all these questions is very, very few(if any in some circumstances)

PS - Im not saying Luke does all of these things, but he does a lot more than any others i know

[peteboss4]

How many trainers are prepared to travel like Luke so that they can place their horses in the most suitable race.

Last year I told Luke I wanted Sixpence to be set for the Red Ochre at Dubbo. He said no problem. He got home at 3am and was up at 7am getting ready to take horses to Goulburn the next day.

Way too many trainers are just too lazy and expect good horses to land in their laps. How many trainers are prepared to put their own skin the game and buy a piece of a horse? How many trainers will have open days at their stables to attract new clients?? How many trainers have up to date websites?? How many trainers get to the yearling sales and inspect all the lots??

Sadly, the answer to all these questions is very, very few(if any in some circumstances)

PS - Im not saying Luke does all of these things, but he does a lot more than any others i know

Respect every single word you say Harvey, but i think the point Murray is making is a valad one, it has nothing to do with all LMs work ect because HE IS doing all you say & good luck to him, but you are a business man i believe & if someone came along opened the same business as you, & most of your clients moved over to the new person in town because he was doing such a great job, what happenes to your business?

[clumsy]

I think that the driver problem could be solved by NOT paying a trainer/driver a driving fee or win%, you could then increase the driving fee for the full time driver. This would make professional driving a more viable business and would perhaps encourage these drivers to travel to the country tracks. Hobby trainers should only hold a B class license and only train horse owned by the trainer or his immediate family. This would ensure that more horses would be trained by the professional trainers, it would also create more employment in the industry as these stables become bigger.

[mightymo]

Respect every single word you say Harvey, but i think the point Murray is making is a valad one, it has nothing to do with all LMs work ect because HE IS doing all you say & good luck to him, but you are a business man i believe & if someone came along opened the same business as you, & most of your clients moved over to the new person in town because he was doing such a great job, what happenes to your business?

you would change or improve your business model.

Ask Gerry Harvey what he is going to do now that internet retailing is destroying his once succeesful business model?? Firstly, he complains! Secondly, he is making changes.

Trainers can put their own cash up and buy some going horses or yearlings. Owners would be far more confident going into a horse knowing the trainer is putting his hard earned in as well

[tiny]

[QUOTE=peteboss4;15338]
Also this industry is not big enough to have it "professional" ( i too wish that) but its not, just have a look around on race nights, days etc, that will show you the reason why it is not.

See Pete that one is a no brainier. You reduce the size of the industry to get the quality up. It's just good business instead of having 3 tracks in Sydney having 5 meetings a week you have one track racing 3 meetings a week. Higher betting turnover per race this equals:
Higher prize money
Require less horses
You have a more professional sport
Better regulation
Almost no weekend warrior trainers and drivers

Anyone that thinks harness racing needs weekend warriors is dreaming and quite frankly the sooner they are wiped out the better. They have nothing to offer.

If Todd and Andy McCarthy make there way to nsw even better it will give Luke some decent trainers to compete against just what harness racing needs.

Bring it on the sooner the better.

[Maorisidol]

Respect every single word you say Harvey, but i think the point Murray is making is a valad one, it has nothing to do with all LMs work ect because HE IS doing all you say & good luck to him, but you are a business man i believe & if someone came along opened the same business as you, & most of your clients moved over to the new person in town because he was doing such a great job, what happenes to your business?

Simple answer. You work harder, you work smarter, you change what u may have been doing, u study training techniques, u study NEW training techniques, u study how the best horses in the world are being trained, And maybe, this is what u should have been doing in the first place! How many trainers are in their comfort zone, doing the same things they have done for the last 20-30 years BUT expect different results?
Now not all trainers are guilty of the above, but those who may cry about LM have no right when they are their own worst enemy.
As PETEBOSS said above "Also this industry is not big enough to have it "professional" ( i too wish that) but its not, just have a look around on race nights, days etc, that will show you the reason why it is not."...in other words (mine, not peteboss) there are a lot of older generation nan and pop trainers/drivers who are TOO set in their ways too fuddy duddy narrow-minded to accept that someone getting results like Luke is potentially legit.
Now before someone jumps on here and blasts my "outrageous broad generalization" my "concept" of "nan and pop syndrome" is apparent in all walks of life not just the trots...
Also as i said not all are guilty but a damn hell of a lot are...one could argue here for the 80/20 rule!

[peteboss4]

you would change or improve your business model.

Ask Gerry Harvey what he is going to do now that internet retailing is destroying his once succeesful business model?? Firstly, he complains! Secondly, he is making changes.

Trainers can put their own cash up and buy some going horses or yearlings. Owners would be far more confident going into a horse knowing the trainer is putting his hard earned in as well

Harvey, every one wants to be a winner & with a winner, no doubt about that. But even before LM turned up these guys had no spare cash, they cant afford to buy horses & now they are struggling even more, changing your buisness model would normaly work with another industry but lets face it, would you give your horses to these other trainers if they could changed their buisness model? Be honest. No one would. These other buisness like Harvey Norman have a credit buffer & can afford to change, the other trainers are basically living from week to week and can not. The point Murray is making im sure, is the wealth is not being shared hence most of these blokes will go broke.

[Starship Captain]

Hi Peter,
Sorry to jump in here but from your last post I would take it that the trainers you speak of are already broke, and so what has changed since LM has arrived?

Training fee? Could a young person expect to make any sought of a living from training, and how many horses would you need?

[candykisses]

Everyone knows my thoughts on LM.

The way I see it. The standardbred has been evolving into a faster but weaker horses similar to TB in a lot of ways. Harness trainers have not changed their training methods for the past 20 yearshow could you possible know that unless you get around to every trainer and observe their methods and now they are behind the eight ball not to an obvious extent until now. LM is so far advanced on any nsw trainer it's not funny.I think everyone agrees ,although there is a lot of discussion on how he is achieving those advancements . All the big owners no that and have moved there horses. That's always going to happin it's an open market.

In regards to people leaving the sport. When Harold park was sold harness racing changed there business plan. One of the long term problems for harness racing has been its inability to attract the punters dollars. One of the reasons is because of inconsistent form. Inconsistant results in alagations of wrong doing. Weekend warrior trainers and drivers can't deliver consistent form. So if they don't have a 80 to 100 % strike rate like Luke their not consistent?

One of the key objectives was to attract interstate horses and trainers. That is why there have been large prize money increases at the top end but lower end country races have seen prize money stay the same or in some cases reduce.


NSWHRC Chairman Rex Horne announced major prizemoney increases for NSW.
UNBELIEVABLE - those were the words most were uttering following a major announcement in relation to prizemoney increases at Tabcorp Park Menangle today by the New South Wales Harness Racing Club.

All class of horses are catered for, with the elite through to the country performed pacer and trotter.

On the back of the sale of Harold Park, NSWHRC Chairman Rex Horne announced that close to six million dollars would go into prizemoney from June 30 this year which will be incorporated into stages.

The second stage (1 Jan 2012) of increases will have the most impact with the Miracle Mile going from $500,000 to $750,000, the NSW Derby and NSW Oaks up from $100,000 to $200,000, the Ladyship Mile from $100,000 to $200,000 and the same for the Len Smith Mile.

NSWHRC have also added a further automatic qualifier to the Miracle Mile in the Popular Alm Sprint, which will carry $75,000 in prizemoney. A week later the Cordina Sprint will increase from $50,000 to $75,000 and the same for the Bohemia Crystal.

The Chariots of Fire will hold its worth at $200,000 but there are increases in the qualifiers such as the Paleface Adios and Hondo Grattan from $20,000 to $40,000.

There will be 180 heats staged through the country circuit worth $8000 each with the finals to be run at Tabcorp Park Menangle being Metropolitan free. To be eligible horses much reach a certain criteria.

No horse stabled within a 100 kilometre radius of Tabcorp Park Menangle will be eligible and those horses must have been in its regional NSW stable for a period of at least 28 days.

Penrith (Renshaw Cup), Newcastle (Newcastle Mile) and Bulli (Linden Huntley Little Memorial) will all be given an additional $50,000 for their feature meeting to run metropolitan class support races.

I wouldn't class this as staying the same or declining


Large numbers of small stables are hard for stewards to regulate (see other thread on disqualified persons) another reason the putters dollar has fallen.

So the future.
The clubs in Sydney need to be reduced to 2 now and 1 with in five years.
Country Clubs need to be reduced to 3 bathurst wagga and newcastle.
The number of nsw based drivers needs to be reduced to about 20 ( there is only 3 that cut it and 2 of those may or may not be back.
Sydney based trainers need to be reduced to about 10 and the interstate satellite stables at menangle. why not just 1 or 2 so we could see some real competitive racing?
The breeding industry needs to be killed off all our horses can be sourced from interstate and NZ as already racing stock.
How about we kill off all breeding and just have those electronic trot races that you see in the pub's and club's
So some may call it dominatatin but I tend to think of it as evolution. This will be the future and there is no room for hobby trainers and weekend warrior drivers so don't be worried about people leaving harness racing instead tell them to take a mate with them. evolution ?? more like Hallucination to me


CASSIE

[peteboss4]

Hi Peter,
Sorry to jump in here but from your last post I would take it that the trainers you speak of are already broke, and so what has changed since LM has arrived?

Training fee? Could a young person expect to make any sought of a living from training, and how many horses would you need?

Your not jumping in SC, should have said spare cash & have duely changed my wording. Since LM has arrived the money they live on has been slashed, if every one had plently of that their would be no drug cheating etc. They may not be totally broke yet but it could be heading that way IMO.

[p plater]

Maybe we should give LC the credit he deserves, I recall a couple of seasons ago in Qld when father John was way behind Dixon on the Metro Training Premiership until LC returned from US and he turned it all around. They started to win 3,4,5 races a night and won so many John won the Metro Premiership. He is that good. I recall the announcer saying team Mccarthy are unstoppable.

[craig]

Dont often comment on this forum but have had enough of reading some of the dribble that goes on in these pages. Some of you are whinging about Lukes success and how it is bad for the industry in NSW. Well i look at it another way. It is good for the NSW industry. Why, because it means the trainers and drivers down there are going to have to lift there game to be competitive, as simple as that. Luke is out training and out driving everyone at the moment. And with the quality of horse he is able to get his hands on, he would want to be winning. It is funny how people say how weak Qld racing is, well if that was the case then why dont the McCarthy's win every race they entered up here. I have always enjoyed racing against them as it gives me a good guide on how i am going as a trainer. Now i am no big name trainer, but i sure as hell am not scared to turn up and race against them or any of the other trainers in this state. I look at it, as a challenge to me, to improve myself not only as a person but as a trainer. I dont go home and sit in the corner of my room sucking my thumb, rocking myself to sleep when i get beaten. I go home and look at the ways i can continue to improve my training and management of my horses. If i have questions then i go to people like the McCarthys and ask for advise. Far to many people want to take the cheap option of attacking someone from behind a computer screen rather then getting out there and trying to improve themselves.

Now maybe it is the NSW industry that has had the weak racing for a number of years now and Lukes success is pointing that fact out to you all like a sledgehammer to the face. Now some of you are crying poor to what Luke is doing at the moment, well you better start getting use to it. It is only a matter of time before other big name stables start to have the pressure from their owners to make the move to NSW as well. If any of the other bigger trainers decide to make the move then dont worry about been only able to run seconds and thirds, because if you dont take up the challenge to improve yourselves then you will only be running to make up the numbers.

With the scandel that is currently rocking the industry in NSW, you should be thankful to have someone like Luke there to help promote the code. With the money that will be on offer in NSW now, it is only a matter of time before more big names arrive on your doorstep. This can only be good for the code and will help it grow from what is it darkest chapter in its history. Just remember, you can all jump up and down and say how much certain people in the industry have damaged the code with there actions over the last year or so, but you also have to realise that alot of the comments that are put up on public forums like this can also have just as big an impact on what people think about our code and can do just as much damage. Think about what you are saying before you start to make silly comments that are based on factless opinions.

It is all good to jump up and down and wave your arms about, screaming how hard done by you are. But unless you are willing to go out and make a difference for yourself, dont go whinging when others do.

Sorry about any spelling errors and please dont expect me to reply as this took far to long for me to type as it is.

[Don Corleone]

Hey Craig - Good on you with your comments above. Nice to see at last a post that is in some way positive. Good stuff.
Ray

[Big Max]

Bravo Craig,great post!

[triplev123]

VERY WELL SAID. Nice one Craig.

[David Summers]

Well done Craig. The time and effort you put into your post was well worth it.

[candykisses]

Dont often comment on this forum but have had enough of reading some of the dribble that goes on in these pages. Some of you are whinging about Lukes success and how it is bad for the industry in NSW. Well i look at it another way. It is good for the NSW industry. Why, because it means the trainers and drivers down there are going to have to lift there game to be competitive, as simple as that. Luke is out training and out driving everyone at the moment. And with the quality of horse he is able to get his hands on, he would want to be winning. It is funny how people say how weak Qld racing is, well if that was the case then why dont the McCarthy's win every race they entered up here. I have always enjoyed racing against them as it gives me a good guide on how i am going as a trainer. Now i am no big name trainer, but i sure as hell am not scared to turn up and race against them or any of the other trainers in this state. I look at it, as a challenge to me, to improve myself not only as a person but as a trainer. I dont go home and sit in the corner of my room sucking my thumb, rocking myself to sleep when i get beaten. I go home and look at the ways i can continue to improve my training and management of my horses. If i have questions then i go to people like the McCarthys and ask for advise. Far to many people want to take the cheap option of attacking someone from behind a computer screen rather then getting out there and trying to improve themselves.

Now maybe it is the NSW industry that has had the weak racing for a number of years now and Lukes success is pointing that fact out to you all like a sledgehammer to the face. Now some of you are crying poor to what Luke is doing at the moment, well you better start getting use to it. It is only a matter of time before other big name stables start to have the pressure from their owners to make the move to NSW as well. If any of the other bigger trainers decide to make the move then dont worry about been only able to run seconds and thirds, because if you dont take up the challenge to improve yourselves then you will only be running to make up the numbers.

With the scandel that is currently rocking the industry in NSW, you should be thankful to have someone like Luke there to help promote the code. With the money that will be on offer in NSW now, it is only a matter of time before more big names arrive on your doorstep. This can only be good for the code and will help it grow from what is it darkest chapter in its history. Just remember, you can all jump up and down and say how much certain people in the industry have damaged the code with there actions over the last year or so, but you also have to realise that alot of the comments that are put up on public forums like this can also have just as big an impact on what people think about our code and can do just as much damage. Think about what you are saying before you start to make silly comments that are based on factless opinions.

It is all good to jump up and down and wave your arms about, screaming how hard done by you are. But unless you are willing to go out and make a difference for yourself, dont go whinging when others do.

Sorry about any spelling errors and please dont expect me to reply as this took far to long for me to type as it is.

Craig
Are you for real ?Trainer's like The Fitzpatricks , The Turnbull's,The Hancocks,The Day's, Jason Proctor , Denis Wilson, Anthony Bucca, Joe Rando Darrin Binskin, etc , Between them they have won every race worth winning, Now suddenly they can't compete ?

My partner have been holidaying at Port Stephens and decided to go to Maitland Trots on Sat Night , as Letusrocku turned for home a punter behind us started Booing ,after the race my partner said what's up mate did you back a loser ,He then produced a ticket out of his pocket and showed us that he had bet $200 on the winner ,he went on to say it was the first time he had felt disgust at backing a winner. Over the next half hour or so I have never seen so many well known and respected harness people looking at each other with raised eyebrows and shaking their heads. I wouldn't dare print what some weir saying.

I know some may be just shooting of at the mouth, and it is so easy to label them all as crying poor, but I think any one who isn't just a little suspicious are in the minority.

[mango]

Hi Cassie

You mention all those trainers and right in doing so as they are great trainers in there own right, but to be honest with you how many of those trainers are being handed horses that have already proven themselve's. Let's be honest owners are sending horses Luke's way it's not Luke chasing them and for one minute don't think he take's every horse he is offered he picks and chooses the one's he want's and the one's that he thinks will suit his training style. Before Luke made the trip down to Sydney how many horses did he actually train as i'm not sure but i do remember Slipnslide, Fluer De Lil, For A Reason and Mr Feelgood and the first 3 he had from yearling sale's time. The other question for you would be how many of them trainers have owners with the $$$$$ behind them as Luke has at this present time as a guess i'd say not many and how many of them trainers jump on a plane every so often and head to N.Z for a couple of day's to drive horse's that are for sale. People might raise there eyebrows and shake there heads but i'm sure they wouldn't be if they were getting the racing stock he is.

[William]

Craig
Are you for real ?Trainer's like The Fitzpatricks , The Turnbull's,The Hancocks,The Day's, Jason Proctor , Denis Wilson, Anthony Bucca, Joe Rando Darrin Binskin, etc , Between them they have won every race worth winning, Now suddenly they can't compete ?

My partner have been holidaying at Port Stephens and decided to go to Maitland Trots on Sat Night , as Letusrocku turned for home a punter behind us started Booing ,after the race my partner said what's up mate did you back a loser ,He then produced a ticket out of his pocket and showed us that he had bet $200 on the winner ,he went on to say it was the first time he had felt disgust at backing a winner. Over the next half hour or so I have never seen so many well known and respected harness people looking at each other with raised eyebrows and shaking their heads. I wouldn't dare print what some weir saying.

I know some may be just shooting of at the mouth, and it is so easy to label them all as crying poor, but I think any one who isn't just a little suspicious are in the minority.

Cassie I can certainly relate to your last sentence. In the end the trots is a gambling game, even for participants who never bet, because they are still investing heavily in time and effort and we're all hoping for a winner. So you have to keep your guard up at all times to some degree. You know what they say about a fool and his money. I don't think you can blame anyone for having suspicions.
This is why it's so important for administrators to keep the game above board. It doesn't matter what sport or game is involved, if it's a gambling game and the people running it allow cheating to go on, the game is finished sooner or later.
For one thing you need straight stewards which we did not have for some time sadly. Secondly the stewards must have an extremely high level of scrutiny over participants, and straight participants should welcome that for their own good as well as the good of the sport.

[candykisses]

Hi Cassie

You mention all those trainers and right in doing so as they are great trainers in there own right, but to be honest with you how many of those trainers are being handed horses that have already proven themselve's. Let's be honest owners are sending horses Luke's way it's not Luke chasing them and for one minute don't think he take's every horse he is offered he picks and chooses the one's he want's and the one's that he thinks will suit his training style. Before Luke made the trip down to Sydney how many horses did he actually train as i'm not sure but i do remember Slipnslide, Fluer De Lil, For A Reason and Mr Feelgood and the first 3 he had from yearling sale's time. The other question for you would be how many of them trainers have owners with the $$$$$ behind them as Luke has at this present time as a guess i'd say not many and how many of them trainers jump on a plane every so often and head to N.Z for a couple of day's to drive horse's that are for sale. People might raise there eyebrows and shake there heads but i'm sure they wouldn't be if they were getting the racing stock he is.

Fair enough Mango

I agree with your sentiments , It's just when you read the list of previous winners of that race Bold Biami , Just Too Good etc and none of those horses ever took off a lap and a half from home and won by 32 1/2 meters without the stick ,Luke stated in the media that he thought the horse was a week away from being ready , Pity help the other horses in the race if it was next week.

Mango I don't think all those trainers only train horses they have bred, raired, and broke in, or purchased at the yearly sales , I'm sure the majority have come into their stable after they are proven performers

[mango]

Hi Cassie

I'm sure the trainers mentioned do recieve proven performers but not at the rate Luke is been given them and there are numerous reasons why, he is an up and comming trainer who is putting in the hard yards, people want to race horses on one of the best tracks in Aus and the prize money is going through the roof. Honestly though i thought he would win the race with Lettucerocku and so did the punter who wasn't happy even though he had $200 on him. I watched his first run back at Newcastle and he was getting tired towards the end but still went 2:01.5 over the 2550m trip so it was no suprise to see him go 2:01 over the 2422m trip a wk later, i knew the horse would handle the tighter track as alot of his racing before Luke recieved him was on half mile tracks such as Wagga, Albury, Bathurst, Canberra, Leeton, Bulli and Young. When going back through his form he raced over the 2300m at Menangle as a 3yr old and was beaten 18.2m and came 3rd to a great horse called Sushi Sushi and Excell Stride in 2nd in a winner's mile rate of 1:54.1 so as a guess he's gone 1:55.5 or quicker so to me he should be able to run the time he did at Maitland.

[aussiebreno]

Everyone knows my thoughts on LM.

The way I see it. The standardbred has been evolving into a faster but weaker horses similar to TB in a lot of ways. Harness trainers have not changed their training methods for the past 20 years and now they are behind the eight ball not to an obvious extent until now. LM is so far advanced on any nsw trainer it's not funny. All the big owners no that and have moved there horses. That's always going to happin it's an open market.

In regards to people leaving the sport. When Harold park was sold harness racing changed there business plan. One of the long term problems for harness racing has been its inability to attract the punters dollars. One of the reasons is because of inconsistent form. Inconsistant results in alagations of wrong doing. Weekend warrior trainers and drivers can't deliver consistent form.

One of the key objectives was to attract interstate horses and trainers. That is why there have been large prize money increases at the top end but lower end country races have seen prize money stay the same or in some cases reduce.

Large numbers of small stables are hard for stewards to regulate (see other thread on disqualified persons) another reason the putters dollar has fallen.

So the future.
The clubs in Sydney need to be reduced to 2 now and 1 with in five years.
Country Clubs need to be reduced to 3 bathurst wagga and newcastle.
The number of nsw based drivers needs to be reduced to about 20 ( there is only 3 that cut it and 2 of those may or may not be back.
Sydney based trainers need to be reduced to about 10 and the interstate satellite stables at menangle.
The breeding industry needs to be killed off all our horses can be sourced from interstate and NZ as already racing stock.

So some may call it dominatatin but I tend to think of it as evolution. This will be the future and there is no room for hobby trainers and weekend warrior drivers so don't be worried about people leaving harness racing instead tell them to take a mate with them.
Hey Tiny,

I know others have already shot you down but I will still add my 2c.
Australian Rules and Rugby League may have the major leagues AFL and NRL but they are nothing without country leagues. Both are fighting to expand the game, Melbourne Storm, Adelaide Rams, Gold Coast Suns and Greater Western Sydney have nothing to do with those areas needing a team but rather trying to entice more youngsters to the game. The more in the game the better.
20 drivers? How does this get decided. After 10 years the driving pool will be gone. Who would want to try and make it as a driver. How could a young driver make it when they are up against 9 of the best.
10 trainers? How does one become one of the elite? The eldest born son of each trainer perhaps..

[triplev123]

It's just when you read the list of previous winners of that race Bold Biami , Just Too Good etc and none of those horses ever took off a lap and a half from home and won by 32 1/2 meters without the stick

[VVV] Hahahahahahaha. That's PRICELESS! Bold Biami & Just Too Good. We should suspect Luke of something because a couple of foals of the late 1960's didn't take off a lap and a half out and win by open lengths????? Hahahahahahahaha. Stop it...Cassie, please, you're killing me. Hahahahahahahahah.

[Old Frank]

I'll bet Luke sit's back and laugh's his head off at the rubbish on these forums, all the while he keeps counting his winners!

Go 'Team McCarthy', keep drilling the opposition!

P.S: Had a sneaky peek at the fields for this Saturday and me's not seeing another fiver though like last week though! I may speak to soon and the 'King' reign supreme again though! Hahaha...

[aussiebreno]

[VVV] Hahahahahahaha. That's PRICELESS! Bold Biami & Just Too Good. We should suspect Luke of something because a couple of foals of the late 1960's didn't take off a lap and a half out and win by open lengths????? Hahahahahahahaha. Stop it...Cassie, please, you're killing me. Hahahahahahahahah.
Look tripleV, Smoken Up only just won his Miracles Miles. For Christian Cullen to annhilate his rivals like he did, not good for the sport and was obviously on the rocket fuel that night, if you watch the replay closely you can see a small cylinder sprouting rocketfire from his rear end.

[Old Frank]

Look tripleV, Smoken Up only just won his Miracles Miles. For Christian Cullen to annhilate his rivals like he did, not good for the sport and was obviously on the rocket fuel that night, if you watch the replay closely you can see a small cylinder sprouting rocketfire from his rear end.

So CC wasn't just an out and out champion winning on ability, he could only do it on rocket fuel and by winning in such a dominant fashion it was bad for racing????

Where was the positive swab then of this so-called rocket fuel and I've never heard one, not one person say it was bad for the sport.

They laud a horse called Black Caviar over at the gallops for winning with such dominance. In actual fact, they promote their industry off the back of it! What silly people they could be for doing such a foolish thing?

Dominance winning - bad for the sport = what a load of bloody tosh!

[murray green]

Hey Tiny . You really should think before you put finger to keyboard . One of the main obstacles facing harness racing is the dropping number of foals being born each year . They are going to throw resorces at it to try and reverse the trend and you want to stop all breeding in NSW ? You must think that there are thousands of spare horses waiting at Bunnings to be picked up . At least they guarantee to beat everyones advertised price by 10% . Declining participation is also a main concern and you want to sack nearly all of the trainers and drivers . Every participant , including everyone of you , brings punters to harness racing . Most punters have a direct link to the industry and you want to kick most of them out . The win pool on a Saturday night might reach $50 or $60 . Harness racing is a peoples sport . Always has been . We can't afford to loose anyone including you Tiny . In 10 years I would say that 33% to 50% of participants will be dead or near enough to it . Look around at the races . There are not enough comming on to replace them .

[aussiebreno]

So CC wasn't just an out and out champion winning on ability, he could only do it on rocket fuel and by winning in such a dominant fashion it was bad for racing????

Where was the positive swab then of this so-called rocket fuel and I've never heard one, not one person say it was bad for the sport.

They laud a horse called Black Caviar over at the gallops for winning with such dominance. In actual fact, they promote their industry off the back of it! What silly people they could be for doing such a foolish thing?

Dominance winning - bad for the sport = what a load of bloody tosh!

Frank,
I apologise for getting you worked up. Sarcasm isn't potrayed the best through the internet. But rest assured I was being sarcastic!

[murray green]

Hi Old Frank . Did you know that the trainer of Black Caviar went for a positive swab 3 weeks before her last win for a drug that has a side effect of sudden death . He was fined $4000 . It seems to me that a person willing to risk that with his horse would do anything . The galloping industry portray him as a great trainer and horseman . Now thats "bloody tosh"

[candykisses]

Look tripleV, Smoken Up only just won his Miracles Miles. For Christian Cullen to annhilate his rivals like he did, not good for the sport and was obviously on the rocket fuel that night, if you watch the replay closely you can see a small cylinder sprouting rocketfire from his rear end.

Hi aussiebreno I was just talking to my Dad on the phone and read your post out to him , He chuckled and said funny thing he mentioned those 2 horses and I said why , He said well Smoken UP has just lost an interdom for a possitive and the Great horse Christian Cullen was scratched from a Miracle Mile because a security guard reported to stewards he saw someone needle the horse with something .

Funny heh

Cassie

[Danno]

Hey Tiny . You really should think before you put finger to keyboard . One of the main obstacles facing harness racing is the dropping number of foals being born each year . They are going to throw resorces at it to try and reverse the trend and you want to stop all breeding in NSW ? You must think that there are thousands of spare horses waiting at Bunnings to be picked up . At least they guarantee to beat everyones advertised price by 10% . Declining participation is also a main concern and you want to sack nearly all of the trainers and drivers . Every participant , including everyone of you , brings punters to harness racing . Most punters have a direct link to the industry and you want to kick most of them out . The win pool on a Saturday night might reach $50 or $60 . Harness racing is a peoples sport . Always has been . We can't afford to loose anyone including you Tiny . In 10 years I would say that 33% to 50% of participants will be dead or near enough to it . Look around at the races . There are not enough comming on to replace them .


Great post Murray,
The sport/game /industry has had many Business GURU's play with various business models over the years and they have been so far been a distinct failure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about each particular business and the best strategy for that business going forward, and time will tell with each business plan adopted because there are definintley no certainties just like that when you go to the trots, no certainties. I have often held the opinion that if you want kill a business then continue to restrict it. If you retsrict the business into small capsules you will, quite obviously find some capsules more profitable than others, and if you continue to follow the same mantra, after you ditch the weakest capsule then next semester/year/ another is identified as the 'weakest link" and so on and so until you have a business that is extremely narrow and completely reliant on other market forces and cannot sustain itself through difficult times.

there is no quick easy answer to any of this, but if you want a real solution then it's going to take all of us being together, excluding people/participants is not the answer.

[aussiebreno]

Hi aussiebreno I was just talking to my Dad on the phone and read your post out to him , He chuckled and said funny thing he mentioned those 2 horses and I said why , He said well Smoken UP has just lost an interdom for a possitive and the Great horse Christian Cullen was scratched from a Miracle Mile because a security guard reported to stewards he saw someone needle the horse with something .

Funny heh

Cassie
Cassie,
Your inference Lettucerocku must be on drugs because it won by a big margin whilst others only won by a short margin. Smoken Up only won the Inter by a short margin....

[aussiebreno]

Great post Murray,
The sport/game /industry has had many Business GURU's play with various business models over the years and they have been so far been a distinct failure, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about each particular business and the best strategy for that business going forward, and time will tell with each business plan adopted because there are definintley no certainties just like that when you go to the trots, no certainties. I have often held the opinion that if you want kill a business then continue to restrict it. If you retsrict the business into small capsules you will, quite obviously find some capsules more profitable than others, and if you continue to follow the same mantra, after you ditch the weakest capsule then next semester/year/ another is identified as the 'weakest link" and so on and so until you have a business that is extremely narrow and completely reliant on other market forces and cannot sustain itself through difficult times.

there is no quick easy answer to any of this, but if you want a real solution then it's going to take all of us being together, excluding people/participants is not the answer.
Danno,
You are right many strategies haven't been particularly successful, but is that the fault of the business gurus or is it just that harness racing is a damned hard sport to run.
I like your weakest link bit. Applies to just about everything imo. It's about strengthening the weakest link, not just getting rid of it.

[tiny]

Murray thanks for your thoughts. But quite frankly you are very wrong. This process of restructure harness racing is going through at the moment is not about growing an already cash strapped industry. It is about reducing its size and increasing its quality. Harness racing in nsw is once again going to be the strongest in the country. It is about attracting quality from the other states. The last thing that harness racing needs is more substandard nsw bred horses racing for $2000 at bankstown. We can sit back and pick off the best interstate and NZ horses.

If you think harness racing needs hundreds of weekend warrior trainer drivers all fighting like seagulls to a chip to the dregs of the prize money left behind by the big few you are kidding it is the recipe for coruption.

The future of harness racing in nsw is to attract the best from interstate in horses, trainers, and drivers and cull the rest. It is big, expensive, unprofitable and difficult to regulate.

The arrival of Luke 12 months ago only highlighted just how weak the nsw trainers were. Others have seen this and will soon follow.

[craig]

OK then. I know I said don’t expect me to reply, but I did not say I would not reply, so here goes just for you Cassie.

At no stage did I say any names that you mentioned could not compete. What I said was that Luke was out training and out driving everyone at the moment and that if they wanted to be competitive then they would have to lift there game. Please go back and read my post again and you will see this is what I said. Don’t go misrepresenting what I have said to suit yourself. I never take what anyone achieves lightly. I respect anyone who is willing to have a go in life and with the names you have mentioned, I hope one day that I can achieve some of the results that they have. But the game has changed again and people need to change with it otherwise they go stale. So having some flesh blood in Luke is going to be great for your industry.

Now I have no doubt that out of the names that you listed that a number of them will rise to the challenge that Luke has issued. But this will take a while for them to do. They will need to find better horses and start to change their training programs. It all takes time. The same thing happened in Qld when Vic Frost first moved up here. No one could beat his horses, but after a while stables started to close the gap on him until they caught up with him. What Vic did was to raise the bar and everyone had to lift there game to compete. Then McCarthys started to dominate the sport here, then it was the Dixons. What Luke is doing is raising the bar, now some people will respond to that challenge while others will sit on their hands and whinge that it is not fair. For those people I have no time for them. They can continue to sit in the corner and rock themselves to sleep while calling out Lukes name. What are they going to do when the next big name stable arrives in town. Cry poor again and say these people have no right to be there as you are doing to Luke, or is it a case that you can come but you have to lower your standard to match ours. Harness Racing is a business and no matter what business you are in, there will always be a couple of players who dominate.

As for your comment about the punter who was booing Luke. Well I guess you would have to have been there to see it, otherwise it seems a bit strange that a winning punter would be booing the horse he backed. How lucky for you he was standing right behind you. Almost seems to convenient to me. But as I said guess you had to be there.

Good luck to Luke. I hope he continues on in such a strong manner as the industry needs some positive stories to tell. It is a shame that some people are willing to try and bring him down to their low levels of achievements. But I guess that is why it is called the tall poppy syndrome.

[Old Frank]

Hi Old Frank . Did you know that the trainer of Black Caviar went for a positive swab 3 weeks before her last win for a drug that has a side effect of sudden death . He was fined $4000 . It seems to me that a person willing to risk that with his horse would do anything . The galloping industry portray him as a great trainer and horseman . Now thats "bloody tosh"

Murray, I'm not wrapping Peter Moody, as you will clearly see my response was to Aussibreno who I mistook for being sarcastic.

Please keep my comments in the context that they were intended/responded too regarding AB's comments.

[Old Frank]

Frank,
I apologise for getting you worked up. Sarcasm isn't potrayed the best through the internet. But rest assured I was being sarcastic!



All good champion, apologies for not picking up on the sarcasim initially! At first I thought, this bloke can't be serious!!! Hahaha...

[Messenger]

Murray thanks for your thoughts. But quite frankly you are very wrong. This process of restructure harness racing is going through at the moment is not about growing an already cash strapped industry. It is about reducing its size and increasing its quality. Harness racing in nsw is once again going to be the strongest in the country. It is about attracting quality from the other states. The last thing that harness racing needs is more substandard nsw bred horses racing for $2000 at bankstown. We can sit back and pick off the best interstate and NZ horses.

If you think harness racing needs hundreds of weekend warrior trainer drivers all fighting like seagulls to a chip to the dregs of the prize money left behind by the big few you are kidding it is the recipe for coruption.

The future of harness racing in nsw is to attract the best from interstate in horses, trainers, and drivers and cull the rest. It is big, expensive, unprofitable and difficult to regulate.

The arrival of Luke 12 months ago only highlighted just how weak the nsw trainers were. Others have seen this and will soon follow.

What is it that you are proposing? No lower levels such as Bankstown $2k races? For a Vic like myself, I am assuming that is like saying NO $3k race meetings at Kilmore (I know they are generally more than this). Where is the community interest going to come from? Where are the future drivers going to come from?

Once again being a Vic can only think AFL for comparison (sorry). This would be like the AFL saying we will keep VFL (one level below AFL level which includes a couple of major country towns) but we do not need country football anymore.

[candykisses]

Cassie,
Your inference Lettucerocku must be on drugs because it won by a big margin whilst others only won by a short margin. Smoken Up only won the Inter by a short margin....

SORRY I thought you refered to Smoken Up's Miracle Mile Wins when you was trying to ridicule my Dad's observation of horses that have had controversy over drugs.

[racefair]

Murray thanks for your thoughts. But quite frankly you are very wrong. This process of restructure harness racing is going through at the moment is not about growing an already cash strapped industry. It is about reducing its size and increasing its quality. Harness racing in nsw is once again going to be the strongest in the country. It is about attracting quality from the other states. The last thing that harness racing needs is more substandard nsw bred horses racing for $2000 at bankstown. We can sit back and pick off the best interstate and NZ horses.

If you think harness racing needs hundreds of weekend warrior trainer drivers all fighting like seagulls to a chip to the dregs of the prize money left behind by the big few you are kidding it is the recipe for coruption.

The future of harness racing in nsw is to attract the best from interstate in horses, trainers, and drivers and cull the rest. It is big, expensive, unprofitable and difficult to regulate.

The arrival of Luke 12 months ago only highlighted just how weak the nsw trainers were. Others have seen this and will soon follow.

Hi Andy,
Some of your points are really interesting. If this is the strategy and thought process at the top end of town, then it's really sad that they think the industry should be owned by a few. Like Rugby League, it was built by the "working man/woman" in Australia and should be for everyone. What is wrong with hobby trainers? The likes of horses like Gamechanger are prepared by hobby trainers. Why are they not good for the sport?
Drivers. Where are you going to get your "top 10" with only 20 stables in operation? Why specifically are (in your opinion) the majority of drivers in Sydney poor?
Trainers. You've noted that LM has highlighted how weak NSW trainers are. Please give me an example of where NSW can improve? Paul Fitzpatrick won multiple trainers premierships and now can't get near LM. Does he qualify for your top 20? Well if he does, then I hope that the other 18 can do a little better because at his success rate against LM, they are all going broke. You're sweeping generalisations are an insult and wrong.
Attracting Interstate Trainers. This is unlikely to happen if LM keeps on going at this rate. Why haven't they already come with the increased prizemoney around the corner? It's really simple Andy. They know that they aren't going to beat LM.

[aussiebreno]

SORRY I thought you refered to Smoken Up's Miracle Mile Wins when you was trying to ridicule my Dad's observation of horses that have had controversy over drugs.
When you was trying to be gangsta?
Oh, and you (or your father) was the one that bought up Smoken Ups positive in the ID....

[candykisses]

When you was trying to be gangsta?
Oh, and you (or your father) was the one that bought up Smoken Ups positive in the ID....

Sweet Dreams Brendan I've had enough Laughs for one knight .

[Danno]

Hi Andy,
Some of your points are really interesting. If this is the strategy and thought process at the top end of town, then it's really sad that they think the industry should be owned by a few. Like Rugby League, it was built by the "working man/woman" in Australia and should be for everyone. What is wrong with hobby trainers? The likes of horses like Gamechanger are prepared by hobby trainers. Why are they not good for the sport?
Drivers. Where are you going to get your "top 10" with only 20 stables in operation? Why specifically are (in your opinion) the majority of drivers in Sydney poor?
Trainers. You've noted that LM has highlighted how weak NSW trainers are. Please give me an example of where NSW can improve? Paul Fitzpatrick won multiple trainers premierships and now can't get near LM. Does he qualify for your top 20? Well if he does, then I hope that the other 18 can do a little better because at his success rate against LM, they are all going broke. You're sweeping generalisations are an insult and wrong.
Attracting Interstate Trainers. This is unlikely to happen if LM keeps on going at this rate. Why haven't they already come with the increased prizemoney around the corner? It's really simple Andy. They know that they aren't going to beat LM.

spot on Jett,
there is no win for anyone in closed market.

[Danno]

Danno,
You are right many strategies haven't been particularly successful, but is that the fault of the business gurus or is it just that harness racing is a damned hard sport to run.
I like your weakest link bit. Applies to just about everything imo. It's about strengthening the weakest link, not just getting rid of it.

Thanks Brendan,
I do not pretend to have all the answers to everything, however, my observations over a considerable time ( about 40 years), the various people appointed by the various NSW Governments have ,in their each individual way, had an impact on the "game", some for the better ( though I can't remember who that was) and some for the worse.

there was a popular mantra in the business world a few years ago and it's still hanging around.....is this your core business? if not, let it go!. In some situations, at some times, that is definielty the way to go, but IMO it's an act of desperation... trying to salvage something is OK but what about the rest of your business?

I do not concurr that the harness racing prpoduct is that far gone we need to enclose it in a very small bedroom and hope it survives on love Our game isaving a bugger of a trot at the moment, but if the people who really believe in the sport can stick together ( which they have proven they can time and time again) we will come out the other side.


LET'S FOCUS ON THE POSITIVES....for the sake of our game.

Cheers

Dan

[Greg Hando]

murray thanks for your thoughts. But quite frankly you are very wrong. This process of restructure harness racing is going through at the moment is not about growing an already cash strapped industry. It is about reducing its size and increasing its quality. Harness racing in nsw is once again going to be the strongest in the country. It is about attracting quality from the other states. The last thing that harness racing needs is more substandard nsw bred horses racing for $2000 at bankstown. We can sit back and pick off the best interstate and nz horses.

If you think harness racing needs hundreds of weekend warrior trainer drivers all fighting like seagulls to a chip to the dregs of the prize money left behind by the big few you are kidding it is the recipe for coruption.

The future of harness racing in nsw is to attract the best from interstate in horses, trainers, and drivers and cull the rest. It is big, expensive, unprofitable and difficult to regulate.

The arrival of luke 12 months ago only highlighted just how weak the nsw trainers were. Others have seen this and will soon follow.

tiny you haven't got a clue what keep's harness racing going. Thank christ your not running the industry.

[candykisses]

OK then. I know I said don’t expect me to reply, but I did not say I would not reply, so here goes just for you Cassie.

At no stage did I say any names that you mentioned could not compete. What I said was that Luke was out training and out driving everyone at the moment and that if they wanted to be competitive then they would have to lift there game.what a cowardice retreat, you certainly did mention these trainers along with hundreds of other very good horseman when you said Luke was out training and driving everyone down there, What a pathetic insult to these champion trainers to suggest they would have to lift their game to compete with Luke Please go back and read my post again and you will see this is what I said. Don’t go misrepresenting what I have said to suit yourself. I never take what anyone achieves lightly. I respect anyone who is willing to have a go in life and with the names you have mentioned, ]I hope one day that I can achieve some of the results that they have[/. Wait till I get my Violin out But the game has changed again and people need to change with it otherwise they go stale.[CNo one is arguing that the game has changed ,but they are questioning what has bought about the change OLOR="purple"][/COLOR] So having some flesh blood in Luke is going to be great for your industry.

Now I have no doubt that out of the names that you listed that a number of them will rise to the challenge that Luke has issued. But this will take a while for them to do.What you mean they wont achieve these results as quick as Luke ?="purple"][/COLOR] They will need to find better horses and start to change their training programs. It all takes time[COLNot for some="purple"][/COLOR]. The same thing happened in Qld when Vic Frost first moved up here. No one could beat his horses, but after a while stables started to close the gap on him until they caught up with him. What Vic did was to raise the bar and everyone had to lift there game to compete. Then McCarthys started to dominate the sport here, then it was the Dixons. What Luke is doing is raising the bar, now some people will respond to that challenge while others will sit on their hands and whinge that it is not fair. For those people I have no time for them. They can continue to sit in the corner and rock themselves to sleep while calling out Lukes name. What are they going to do when the next big name stable arrives in town. Cry poor again and say these people have no right to be there as you are doing to Luke, or is it a case that you can come but you have to lower your standard to match ours. Harness Racing is a business and no matter what business you are in, [B]there will always be a couple of players who dominate.
Totally agree the better pros with their better horses and bigger numbers will always rise to the top ,but it is when those that have always been at the top suddenly are no longer in the hunt that you have to ask why.][/COLOR]
As for your comment about the punter who was booing Luke. Well I guess you would have to have been there to see it, otherwise it seems a bit strange that a winning punter would be booing the horse he backed. How lucky for you he was standing right behind you. Almost seems to convenient to me I suppose I could have imagined it along with the 10 or so others that heard his rant. But as I said guess you had to be there. and I was

Good luck to Luke. I hope he continues on in such a strong manner as the industry needs some positive stories to tell. It is a shame that some people are willing to try and bring him down to their low levels of achievements.I think I"M gunna have to get the Violin out again. But I guess that is why it is called the tall poppy syndrome. [

[mightymo]

[

Think of the 20 best(both in ability and in terms of grade) new horses that have reached NSW shores in recent times and you will proably find that Luke has received almost every one of them.

Franco Jamar and Arctic Fire for example both came to Luke straight after the Breeders Crown as Metro maidens. Blind freddy could have had them winning their first few starts. As it turns out, Arctic won 4 out of 7 and Jamar 7 out of 9.

Theres 11 races that I dare say could have been won by those 2 horses no matter who trained them

[aussiebreno]

Think of the 20 best(both in ability and in terms of grade) new horses that have reached NSW shores in recent times and you will proably find that Luke has received almost every one of them.

Franco Jamar and Arctic Fire for example both came to Luke straight after the Breeders Crown as Metro maidens. Blind freddy could have had them winning their first few starts. As it turns out, Arctic won 4 out of 7 and Jamar 7 out of 9.

Theres 11 races that I dare say could have been won by those 2 horses no matter who trained them
Mate Arctic Fire was a plodder of the highest degree. :p :p just joking

[craig]

Cassie.

Don’t you ever call me a coward again, or you will find out quick smart, how big bad and nasty this world is. At no stage did I slander any of the people you claimed I have. I pointed out a fact and that fact still exists. Luke is out training and out driving everyone in NSW at the moment. You then made the suggestion that it was an insult to these champion trainers that they would have to lift there game if they wanted to compete with Luke. Guess what, if they don’t lift there game then they won’t be able to compete against him and I don’t doubt for one second that some of them wont issue him with a challenge. Do you realise what made them top trainers in the first place. Trying to beat the trainer in front of them. That is what made them top grade trainers in the first place. Why don’t you go and get your trainers licence and take Luke on. Oh sorry is that too much of a challenge for you. Do you find it easier to slander him instead. How would you feel if you were to start winning races only to hop on here and see people calling you a cheat. Bet you would not like it at all. Next time you are at the races and you see Luke, why don’t you go up and front him and tell him what you are quite happy to say on here, while thinking you are well hidden behind your computer screen. I doubt very much that you will.

You basically have come onto this forum and accused Luke of been a cheat. Never once has Luke or when he was with his father did they have to front up to explain any kind of irregularity in a swab. Yet you persist on calling him a cheat by the constant accusations that you and a couple of other small minded individuals insist on making. Do yourself a big favour. Keep your mouth shut and your fingers off the keypad. Otherwise the next time you comment, you could find yourself in some legal bother. If you wish to continue to misrepresent what I have said don’t be surprised if you find legal action coming your way. I will not have you taking what I have said and changing it to suit yourself. You would be well advised to desist from doing this again, any time in the future.

It is sad to see where this forum has ended up. Have seen to many now, that start off well with people talking about the industry and discussing what is happening in it, only to have a few narrow minded people come along and think they have a right to make unfounded accusations about someone they don’t like. I believe it is time that this website closed down the entire forum section. It no longer is been used for what it was meant. It is now been used as a vehicle by some to show their true colours. These same people who pretend to care or love the industry are doing nothing more than giving it a black eye with there comments.

[barney]

Craig What a lot of people on here are saying is what the general punters are saying his domination seems unreal.I for one dont know if he is a user or not.I have been told by people in the game that he is but that well maybe sour grapes or it may not, time will tell i guess.
But from my point of view anyone dominating like this is not good for the sport on top of the scandal that is being played out right now.The sport needs good publicity but just right now keeps getting bad.The smoken up saga hasnt helped at all and now the Raglan saga.
I have been involved in some way for more time than i wish to remember but have never been closer to just walking away as feel it is a losing battle.

[candykisses]

Craig What a lot of people on here are saying is what the general punters are saying his domination seems unreal.I for one dont know if he is a user or not.I have been told by people in the game that he is but that well maybe sour grapes or it may not, time will tell i guess.
But from my point of view anyone dominating like this is not good for the sport on top of the scandal that is being played out right now.The sport needs good publicity but just right now keeps getting bad.The smoken up saga hasnt helped at all and now the Raglan saga.
I have been involved in some way for more time than i wish to remember but have never been closer to just walking away as feel it is a losing battle.


Barney your wasting your time

Craig is so in love with Luke he can't believe how anyone could possibly think he isn't squeeky clean
He would rather believe that very good and premiership winning trainers all of a sudden have forgot how to train horses .
He want's to blame every Trainer and Driver in NSW for falling behind rather than look at how one man has leaped forward.
So anyone who dares to have suspicions about his Luke better watch out or they will find out how bad and nasty this world can be (what a hero)
Last time I checked Craig Australia was a free country and every one is entitled to their opinion , and just because it differs from yours does not give you the right to tell me or anyone to keep their mouth shut , as for the coward remark ,IF THE SHOE FITS

[Messenger]

Cassie.

Don’t you ever call me a coward again, or you will find out quick smart, how big bad and nasty this world is. At no stage did I slander any of the people you claimed I have. I pointed out a fact and that fact still exists. Luke is out training and out driving everyone in NSW at the moment. You then made the suggestion that it was an insult to these champion trainers that they would have to lift there game if they wanted to compete with Luke. Guess what, if they don’t lift there game then they won’t be able to compete against him and I don’t doubt for one second that some of them wont issue him with a challenge. Do you realise what made them top trainers in the first place. Trying to beat the trainer in front of them. That is what made them top grade trainers in the first place. Why don’t you go and get your trainers licence and take Luke on. Oh sorry is that too much of a challenge for you. Do you find it easier to slander him instead. How would you feel if you were to start winning races only to hop on here and see people calling you a cheat. Bet you would not like it at all. Next time you are at the races and you see Luke, why don’t you go up and front him and tell him what you are quite happy to say on here, while thinking you are well hidden behind your computer screen. I doubt very much that you will.

You basically have come onto this forum and accused Luke of been a cheat. Never once has Luke or when he was with his father did they have to front up to explain any kind of irregularity in a swab. Yet you persist on calling him a cheat by the constant accusations that you and a couple of other small minded individuals insist on making. Do yourself a big favour. Keep your mouth shut and your fingers off the keypad. Otherwise the next time you comment, you could find yourself in some legal bother. If you wish to continue to misrepresent what I have said don’t be surprised if you find legal action coming your way. I will not have you taking what I have said and changing it to suit yourself. You would be well advised to desist from doing this again, any time in the future.

It is sad to see where this forum has ended up. Have seen to many now, that start off well with people talking about the industry and discussing what is happening in it, only to have a few narrow minded people come along and think they have a right to make unfounded accusations about someone they don’t like. I believe it is time that this website closed down the entire forum section. It no longer is been used for what it was meant. It is now been used as a vehicle by some to show their true colours. These same people who pretend to care or love the industry are doing nothing more than giving it a black eye with there comments.

Hmmm. Legal action threatened on a forum. Maybe you are not suited to forum banter Craig but then again maybe such threats are one of the disadvantages of using our real names ie Dumbo calling Pinhead an Idiot cannot be taken seriously but John calling Betty a ..... can. Maybe this is why the old Vic harness racing forum did not last very long - legal threats (Was it really necessary Craig?)

[murray green]

craig craig craig . What a goose . Luke gets his horses going amazingly well . I think we should call him Harry Potter . He waves his wand over them and they find 30 lengths . If he is Harry , that makes you Dobby , his protector

[barney]

What does surprise me and i may have missed some but notice that the Douglas stable from Victoria dont seem to travel to Menangle like they did to Harold park.Would think with bigger prizemoney they would be chasing it.

[mightymo]

What does surprise me and i may have missed some but notice that the Douglas stable from Victoria dont seem to travel to Menangle like they did to Harold park.Would think with bigger prizemoney they would be chasing it.


A number of races for the first few weeks of the new increased prizemoney, have required horses to be domiciled in NSW for at least 28 days

[Greg Hando]

Craig What a lot of people on here are saying is what the general punters are saying his domination seems unreal.I for one dont know if he is a user or not.I have been told by people in the game that he is but that well maybe sour grapes or it may not, time will tell i guess.
But from my point of view anyone dominating like this is not good for the sport on top of the scandal that is being played out right now.The sport needs good publicity but just right now keeps getting bad.The smoken up saga hasnt helped at all and now the Raglan saga.
I have been involved in some way for more time than i wish to remember but have never been closer to just walking away as feel it is a losing battle.

Barney what would you have HRNSW do to stop this so called domination then ?

[Drivemecrazy]

Barney your wasting your time

Craig is so in love with Luke he can't believe how anyone could possibly think he isn't squeeky clean
He would rather believe that very good and premiership winning trainers all of a sudden have forgot how to train horses .
He want's to blame every Trainer and Driver in NSW for falling behind rather than look at how one man has leaped forward.
So anyone who dares to have suspicions about his Luke better watch out or they will find out how bad and nasty this world can be (what a hero)
Last time I checked Craig Australia was a free country and every one is entitled to their opinion , and just because it differs from yours does not give you the right to tell me or anyone to keep their mouth shut , as for the coward remark ,IF THE SHOE FITS



Wow, this is the first one I have replied to, I could not help myself.Cassie, Australia is a free country, but you still need to have proof beyond reasonabledoubt to accuse, and to actually convict here also. Do you have this, hardevidence and proof to back up your claims that LM may be using 'alternate'methods?

I used to go to the races in QLD all the time, and I watched LM and hisfather bring there team of horses thru the ranks, and succeed. I see nothingwrong with this. He has also been given some good horses also, another reason.

As for Craig's comment about other trainers improving their training, yesthey will have to. They will also need to start to look at the quality of horsethat they send around. it is a round trip, and it goes on all the time. You seeit in every state, all the time .. I mean do you think that these trainerstrain the same way today as they did 10 year ago> of course not!.. why not,because they improved on it, they changed the style of racing and the type ofhorse.

More to the point of being so nasty to another forum member, Are you upsetthat one person is having success?? Or upset that things arent going your way,i notice you’re a stable hand, is this why your so upset, is your boss upsetthat there horses are not the same quality at this stage, and still have alittle bit of improving to do to do the times?

Messenger and Barney, true that there is banter, but cassie i think fromreading this forum over stepped the mark and went into personal attacking. Iwould say Craig has the right to retaliate. And quite frankly, if A personwrote a letter to me personally, or posted comments mentioning me, and thoseactions in a public paper, legal action would be forthcoming. Yes the Vic forumdid not last, nor did the one on harness dot org?? I recall that they wereattacking a commentator I think…Anyway, it seems that the times when one had tohave proof before making allagations has long gone. But then so does the needto believe and listen to it.

It seems simple to me. A person, has moved states, come with fresh horses,and given some good horses, using tried and tru training fashions and new ones.Is producing winners. Its no mystery.

From a puntting point of view, I like it. I know the form, I know that theyare there to win, I know my odds are good.

[barney]

Barney what would you have HRNSW do to stop this so called domination then ?

Nothing they can do i guess but still not good for the sport and anyone who argues it is is deluding themselves and dont talk to the average punter who now avoid Harness like a plague.

[barney]

No way in the world was Mccarthy senior dominating up here before Luke came back from America, i may be wrong but dont thinks so the Mccarthys came from Nsw to Queensland.

[Greg Hando]

Has anyone thought about Simulated High Altitude Training. Noel Daley uses it and i think Luke used to work for him in the states.

[candykisses]

Wow, this is the first one I have replied to, I could not help myself.Cassie, Australia is a free country, but you still need to have proof beyond reasonabledoubt to accuse, and to actually convict here also. Do you have this, hardevidence and proof to back up your claims that LM may be using 'alternate'methods?

I used to go to the races in QLD all the time, and I watched LM and hisfather bring there team of horses thru the ranks, and succeed. I see nothingwrong with this. He has also been given some good horses also, another reason.

As for Craig's comment about other trainers improving their training, yesthey will have to. They will also need to start to look at the quality of horsethat they send around. it is a round trip, and it goes on all the time. You seeit in every state, all the time .. I mean do you think that these trainerstrain the same way today as they did 10 year ago> of course not!.. why not,because they improved on it, they changed the style of racing and the type ofhorse.

More to the point of being so nasty to another forum member, Are you upsetthat one person is having success?? Or upset that things arent going your way,i notice you’re a stable hand, is this why your so upset, is your boss upsetthat there horses are not the same quality at this stage, and still have alittle bit of improving to do to do the times?

Messenger and Barney, true that there is banter, but cassie i think fromreading this forum over stepped the mark and went into personal attacking. Iwould say Craig has the right to retaliate. And quite frankly, if A personwrote a letter to me personally, or posted comments mentioning me, and thoseactions in a public paper, legal action would be forthcoming. Yes the Vic forumdid not last, nor did the one on harness dot org?? I recall that they wereattacking a commentator I think…Anyway, it seems that the times when one had tohave proof before making allagations has long gone. But then so does the needto believe and listen to it.

It seems simple to me. A person, has moved states, come with fresh horses,and given some good horses, using tried and tru training fashions and new ones.Is producing winners. Its no mystery.

From a puntting point of view, I like it. I know the form, I know that theyare there to win, I know my odds are good.


Would you be so kind to show me any were in my post were I have accused any one of anything .
If you would like to get off your high horse and read what I have said you will find that I have simply expressed my and many others view that what we are seeing from most of lukes horses is improvement that it very hard to explain.
Tazmin you say you used to go to the trots up there and see Luke and his dad train winners , can you honestly say you ever saw there horses improve 50 to 100 mtrs in a matter of weeks and watch them win by as far and with the ease that some of these are( do your self a favour and watch letusrocku on sat night)

Now people who have been around a while and know you can't improve horses that much with physical training have a right to have their suspicions whether a few died in the wool luke fan's like your self and Craig like it or not.
As has been pointed out many times and I have admitted I have no proof of any wrong doing , all I can go on is common sense and History.
History is full of spectactular improved performances that have proven to be Drug related , but I can not recall many that have occurred with out them, you might like to list them for me and for every one you come up with i'll give you 5 that were.

Craig wanted to open his big mouth and slander every trainer and driver in NSW by saying they were being out trained and driven by Luke ,but when I mentioned some of the names he was belittling he went to water with the old " I never mentioned those people line " witch I thought was a cowardice retreat from a pathetic statement. ( and his next post did nothing to alter my opinion)
Here you are sticking up for a brave Man that would threaten some one with "you'll find out how bad and nasty this world is" ,which makes you as bad as he is.Then you have the gall to accuse me of personal attacks .

As for the rest of your post about good horses trained by old and new methods, I would love to think your right.

[William]

Hi Cassie
I've enjoyed reading your posts and it's good to have you on this forum. I hope that you don't get involved in any personal stuff or flaming because from what I have seen that usually ends in people disappearing from the discussion, which would be a shame in your case. This is an emotive issue in some respects but lets all stick to the issue and try to leave the personal stuff to one side.

[candykisses]

Hi Cassie
I've enjoyed reading your posts and it's good to have you on this forum. I hope that you don't get involved in any personal stuff or flaming because from what I have seen that usually ends in people disappearing from the discussion, which would be a shame in your case. This is an emotive issue in some respects but lets all stick to the issue and try to leave the personal stuff to one side.

Hi William
Thank you for the advice, I thought my post was pretty tame compared to the one I read from aussibrenno to Zipzap and I see he is still with us.

Cheers Cassie

[Greg Hando]

I was just reading the NSW and VIC websites and the result's off them and came up with
Luke Mac -35.9 % W/S state wide and 30% Metro
Kerryn Manning - 35.45% State wide
Shane Cramp -37.50 % State wide
Dean Braun - 36.70% State wide
If these are correct where is the domination we are led to believe i might be slow on the uptake but i fail to see it as that bad from these figure's when compared to our closest neighbour.

[Messenger]

Wow, this is the first one I have replied to, I could not help myself.Cassie, Australia is a free country, but you still need to have proof beyond reasonabledoubt to accuse, and to actually convict here also. Do you have this, hardevidence and proof to back up your claims that LM may be using 'alternate'methods?

I used to go to the races in QLD all the time, and I watched LM and hisfather bring there team of horses thru the ranks, and succeed. I see nothingwrong with this. He has also been given some good horses also, another reason.

As for Craig's comment about other trainers improving their training, yesthey will have to. They will also need to start to look at the quality of horsethat they send around. it is a round trip, and it goes on all the time. You seeit in every state, all the time .. I mean do you think that these trainerstrain the same way today as they did 10 year ago> of course not!.. why not,because they improved on it, they changed the style of racing and the type ofhorse.

More to the point of being so nasty to another forum member, Are you upsetthat one person is having success?? Or upset that things arent going your way,i notice you’re a stable hand, is this why your so upset, is your boss upsetthat there horses are not the same quality at this stage, and still have alittle bit of improving to do to do the times?

Messenger and Barney, true that there is banter, but cassie i think fromreading this forum over stepped the mark and went into personal attacking. Iwould say Craig has the right to retaliate. And quite frankly, if A personwrote a letter to me personally, or posted comments mentioning me, and thoseactions in a public paper, legal action would be forthcoming. Yes the Vic forumdid not last, nor did the one on harness dot org?? I recall that they wereattacking a commentator I think…Anyway, it seems that the times when one had tohave proof before making allagations has long gone. But then so does the needto believe and listen to it.

It seems simple to me. A person, has moved states, come with fresh horses,and given some good horses, using tried and tru training fashions and new ones.Is producing winners. Its no mystery.

From a puntting point of view, I like it. I know the form, I know that theyare there to win, I know my odds are good.


Have we got some drama queens all of a sudden or what. EVERYONE read post 62 again then read 59 again - which it was in response to. WTF would require someone to start threatening legal action. Please quote the relevant parts if you find them because they would seem to be nothing more than banter to me - yes BANTER

[zipzap]

What do we put down the run by Mr feelgood and i wonder what luke said to John when he come up 3 wide.

[M.John]

Luke could have cotrolled that race if his dad didn't come 3 wide, any other horse and he would have parked it 3 wide. John made the race for Mightyquinn. Mr Feelgood wouldn't of won even if he kept the death anyway, went average. Horse in front Dasher V C went massive would of beat Mr Feelgood, home in 26.9, you would have to consider yourself unlucky to get beat if you are involved in that horse, not much more you can do to win a race.

[Maorisidol]

I was just reading the NSW and VIC websites and the result's off them and came up with
Luke Mac -35.9 % W/S state wide and 30% Metro
Kerryn Manning - 35.45% State wide
Shane Cramp -37.50 % State wide
Dean Braun - 36.70% State wide
If these are correct where is the domination we are led to believe i might be slow on the uptake but i fail to see it as that bad from these figure's when compared to our closest neighbour.

Oh Greg,Thanku!!!!!
Aussiebrenno initially raised the Kerryn stat but funny enough the LM knockers who hang a man without a trial, had NO comment on that.
Thanku for providing real proof stats from that website, maybe, but unlikely, some may start to think this apparent domination does actually stem from as Craig put it so well, the Tall Poppy Syndrome.
We now need a thread for each of the above successful Trainers for the LM haters to accuse them of being drug cheats.

Also by the way would love to get a link put on here to the actual races, horses names and dates on the harness.org website where we can all b shown proof of horses who have recently improved by "50-100metres in a matter of a few weeks", apparently Cassie knows examples of this....................

[candykisses]

Oh Greg,Thanku!!!!!
Aussiebrenno initially raised the Kerryn stat but funny enough the LM knockers who hang a man without a trial, had NO comment on that.
Thanku for providing real proof stats from that website, maybe, but unlikely, some may start to think this apparent domination does actually stem from as Craig put it so well, the Tall Poppy Syndrome.
We now need a thread for each of the above successful Trainers for the LM haters to accuse them of being drug cheats.

Also by the way would love to get a link put on here to the actual races, horses names and dates on the harness.org website where we can all b shown proof of horses who have recently improved by "50-100metres in a matter of a few weeks", apparently Cassie knows examples of this....................


HI Greg and Ash

I thought you might have had enough of producing those pointless starters to runners statistics when it was shown to not be a true indication of Luke's record .
So just for you both once again I 'll say it a little sssslllllloooowwwweeeeerrrrrr.

i.e. last friday at menangle Luke had 10 runners for 5 winners Using your starters to winners stats Greg thats 50%
Now here's the true stats Luke had runners in 5 races for 5 winners that gentleman is 100%

The FactLuke usually has multiple runners ( 2 and 3 )will always water down his starters to winners figures '
were as the other trainers you are talking about seldom would have more than 1 runner per race
If you have 3 runners in a race(as Luke often does and you win with 1 of them it will still only give you a 33.3% starters to winners ratio.
Are you getting the Idea Boy's or would you like me to draw you a picture??

Sorry Ash I know you got a bit excited there ,but keep up the good work mate.

Cheers Cassie

[The Rainmaker]

i.e. last friday at menangle Luke had 10 runners for 5 winners Using your stats Greg 50%
Now here's the true stats Luke had runners in 5 races for 5 winners that gentleman is 100%



Precisely. Luke Mc is continually entering 2 and 3 horses in the same races at Menangle. Only one horse can win. As I mentioned a couple of pages earlier, the true representation of McCarthy's strike rate should be [Races Contested v Races Won] considering he has multiple starters in races all the time. Instead of his average looking yet Australia wide leading 35% strike rate, I think you'll find hes batting around 60%, massive numbers.

Question, why does McCarthy continually enter 2-3 starters per race where only one can pick up the winning cheque? Most trainers like to keep their horses separated and target different races. I know it makes his strike-rate look worse, and gives the perception that he is not dominating, maybe thats what he wants?

Like I said earlier I'm neither pro or anti McCarthy, but it irritates me when people come up with ill informed stats with their rose-coloured glasses on. People can tinker with statistics any way they want to suit their argument, but anyone who thinks McCarthy isn't dominating is delusional.

[candykisses]

Precisely. Luke Mc is continually entering 2 and 3 horses in the same races at Menangle. Only one horse can win. As I mentioned a couple of pages earlier, the true representation of McCarthy's strike rate should be [Races Contested v Races Won] considering he has multiple starters in races all the time. Instead of his average looking yet Australia wide leading 35% strike rate, I think you'll find hes batting around 60%, massive numbers.

Question, why does McCarthy continually enter 2-3 starters per race where only one can pick up the winning cheque? Most trainers like to keep their horses separated and target different races. I know it makes his strike-rate look worse, and gives the perception that he is not dominating, maybe thats what he wants?

Like I said earlier I'm neither pro or anti McCarthy, but it irritates me when people come up with ill informed stats with their rose-coloured glasses on.

OH Eric Thanku!!!!!

[murray green]

I went to Menangle last Saturday night and I decided to go and have a look at Lukes horses and I'll admit they looked fantastic . Massive and strong . If they were human I'd liken them to Hulk Hogan , Mister Invincable or any other wrestling superstar

[peteboss4]

[QUOTE=murray green;15318]. Every aspect of the industry is affected . I believe even yearling sale figures will cop a hiding this year as people loose interest .

I remembered someone wrote about the yearling sales being affected & how right you are Murray. I'm talking about Sydney & last night proved it 51% clearance rates not very good at all. I can only hope Sunday comes good for the breeder but I doubt it.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Hi to all,
As a new member to the forum I do enjoy reading arguements for the so called domination by certain persons. I worked in the harness industry in the 80's and 90's and defected over to the gallopers only to now return to the same love like everyone else, Harness Racing.
Owners will send there horses to those who get results and the most important part for me returning is attending country night meets and see all in attendance even liitle kids in there pj's which you do not get at the gallops.
Harness racing involves more families and that is what helps the sport to survive and we really need to focus on the positives of this sport rather than bagging people behind there backs. placing horses where they can compete should be every trainers goal as an astute trainer is a force.For those who do use enhancers and they know who they are science is catching up on masking so you get caught that's it. If I can buy a horse good enough to win in metro company I can rest assured knowing that it won by ability and that is good enough for me.
Peace out and bring on the Interdoms

[peteboss4]

Hi to all,
As a new member to the forum I do enjoy reading arguements for the so called domination by certain persons. I worked in the harness industry in the 80's and 90's and defected over to the gallopers only to now return to the same love like everyone else, Harness Racing.
Owners will send there horses to those who get results and the most important part for me returning is attending country night meets and see all in attendance even liitle kids in there pj's which you do not get at the gallops.
Harness racing involves more families and that is what helps the sport to survive and we really need to focus on the positives of this sport rather than bagging people behind there backs. placing horses where they can compete should be every trainers goal as an astute trainer is a force.For those who do use enhancers and they know who they are science is catching up on masking so you get caught that's it. If I can buy a horse good enough to win in metro company I can rest assured knowing that it won by ability and that is good enough for me.
Peace out and bring on the Interdoms


Here you go Hillbillydeluxe....enjoy your return BUT face up to THE TRUTH FIRST


Just posted this in general chat in reply to Dan but posting it here as well......I don't care what anyone thinks because its THE TRUTH

Yes i would have left too & probably will .I have always enjoyed the sport but not so much now. Went back & had a look there has been 23 positives in a relative short period , we have EPO,Meth, arsenic, bute,testosterone (that's a steroid),ibuprofen,& your good old bicarb etc. Its a disgrace & do any of these cheats care who they are ripping off.......NO, THEY DO NOT...You have guys with POSITIVES racing in Hunter Cups & Interdoms.... that in itself is WRONG.......You have guys listed on the O'Toole charge sheet STILL winning races......these grubs run this sport, NOT the stewards or the CEO..... Sam needs to step up and put into place lengthy sentences for cheats & stick to it....eg 12 mts bi carb, 5years anything else as there is no real DESCENT penalty for these cheats. AND THESE CASES NEED TO BE DELT WITH QUICKLY. And mark my words some named in the O'Toole case will get away with it! Things need to change NOW before its too late. Obviously I'm Pissed off big time!