Reality Check For the McCarthy Paranoia!!!

[Maorisidol]

I did some research on http://www.harness.org.au/results/index.cfm?event=resultsIndex&search_type=daily to really check this McCarthy "domination" that has "so many" owners trainers drivers strappers (Cassie!) terrified and it just goes to show, dont believe a "story" even one so passionately delivered by the storyteller until u check the facts and figures of what really is happening.
(i am currently on annual leave for another week, hence i have time to do this!!!)

I thought if the LM machine is so good, what if i backed all his horses, i'd b a millionaire!!!

Since October 1 i wrote down a $100 win bet on every LM horse.
Where he had 2 horses racing i chose to have $50 on the shortest price LM horse to win and $25 each way on the other horse.
Where he had 3 horses in the same race, i went same for fav, and $12.50EW for the others, so spending no more than 100 per race.

Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790
but am still DOWN $316 up till yesterday based on that example.
How come i'm not a millionaire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REALITY CHECK NUMBER 2...
I looked at EVERY NSW Meeting in October.
There were 275 races in the state for all trainers to have a go at.
LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!!

He won 24 races, thats 8.7% holy crap, there's a domination!!!
That means 91.3% of races were won by OTHER TRAINERS!!!!!!

He had 19 places = 6.9%

He RAN LAST 9 TIMES! And this is all only for OCTOBER.

Now to the paranoid, pass this around to your mates who are walking around trotting tracks shaking their heads and raising their eyebrows!

[Trotter]

You sure done your research

[tiny]

Great post I notice it was LM free day at bankstown today.
I notice Boris got a double though and his next door neighbor just got back from America.
"Bet he's filling em up too ah"

[Thevoiceofreason]

Great work

[David Summers]

Thanks Maoris for all the work you put into your stats.

The figures don't lie , although you will never convince some of the jealous morons that post on these forums. I could name them , but really no need to , I think every regular contributor to these forums knows who you all are.

[M.John]

New to here ,,, These countless Internet forum topics with countless whingers is simply a case of people who do not have success hating to witness someone else's success. Common error among a lot of struggling harness participants, to busy worrying about everybody else instead of worrying about their own. Lukes a great trainer but he is very smart. Don't see him picking up horses that are on the way down, he gets good stock on a good mark, don't see him out getting old claimers and winning 10 races with them. The last horse I can remember was Lively Highlander that he got that I think is past his prime (more than likely only trained the horse for his mate) and the horse didn't last long. Also didn't win 5 in a row.

[p plater]

Great stats Maoris, based on your stats LM won 24 from 53 races, thats 45%, now lets work out how to get better odds and you will be a millionaire.
Wish I could back 45% winners

[Old Frank]

New to here ,,, These countless Internet forum topics with countless whingers is simply a case of people who do not have success hating to witness someone else's success. Common error among a lot of struggling harness participants, to busy worrying about everybody else instead of worrying about their own. Lukes a great trainer but he is very smart. Don't see him picking up horses that are on the way down, he gets good stock on a good mark, don't see him out getting old claimers and winning 10 races with them. The last horse I can remember was Lively Highlander that he got that I think is past his prime (more than likely only trained the horse for his mate) and the horse didn't last long. Also didn't win 5 in a row.



This man speak the truth!!!!!!!!

Well said Michael.

The good stock on a good mark is spot on.

And your point about participants worrying about what everyone else is doing, what about harness participants who train a winner every pancake day, yet tell you everything every trainer who's actually winning races what their doing wrong? Have seen it (and heard it unfortunately!) thousands of times, yet they could barely train a dog to sit themselves!

[candykisses]

[QUOTE=Maorisidol;15400]I did some research on http://www.harness.org.au/results/index.cfm?event=resultsIndex&search_type=daily to really check this McCarthy "domination" that has "so many" owners trainers drivers strappers (Cassie!) terrified and it just goes to show, dont believe a "story" even one so passionately delivered by the storyteller until u check the facts and figures of what really is happening.
(i am currently on annual leave for another week, hence i have time to do this!!!)

I thought if the LM machine is so good, what if i backed all his horses, i'd b a millionaire!!!

Since October 1 i wrote down a $100 win bet on every LM horse.
Where he had 2 horses racing i chose to have $50 on the shortest price LM horse to win and $25 each way on the other horse.
Where he had 3 horses in the same race, i went same for fav, and $12.50EW for the others, so spending no more than 100 per race.

Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790
but am still DOWN $316 up till yesterday based on that example.
How come i'm not a millionaire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REALITY CHECK NUMBER 2...
I looked at EVERY NSW Meeting in October.
There were 275 races in the state for all trainers to have a go at.
LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!!

He won 24 races, thats 8.7% holy crap, there's a domination!!!
That means 91.3% of races were won by OTHER TRAINERS!!!!!!

He had 19 places = 6.9%

He RAN LAST 9 TIMES! And this is all only for OCTOBER.

Now to the paranoid, pass this around to your mates who are walking around trotting tracks shaking their heads and raising their eyebrows![/QUOTE

I apologise for offending anyone on here , I was just stating what I have been observing as I get around the tracks, .( as apposed to people that sit on computers all day) I can't change what I see and hear.

Ash 53 races 24 wins is very close to 50% and your punting example is flawed . as most of his starters are $1.10 to $1.30 if you have the same bet on each starter even at a 50% strike rate you will lose eg 10 bets at $100 you invest $1,000, 5 win at average price of $1.50 you collect $ 750 for a loss of $250 even though you have backed 5 out of 10, using your method you would have to win more like 8 out of 10 to break even.

Cassie

[mango]

Hi Cassie
No need to apologise to anyone on here, your entitled to your opinion. And i don't doubt for one minute on what you have been observing and hearing around the tracks. Maybe they should put more effort into getting there house in order instead of rubbishing other people.

[candykisses]

Hi Cassie
No need to apologise to anyone on here, your entitled to your opinion. And i don't doubt for one minute on what you have been observing and hearing around the tracks. Maybe they should put more effort into getting there house in order instead of rubbishing other people.

Thanks Mango I have worked out there are some passionate people on here ! which is good

I'll remember to be a bit more careful as to not upset them with my personal experiences.

[racefair]

I thought if the LM machine is so good, what if i backed all his horses, i'd b a millionaire!!!

Since October 1 i wrote down a $100 win bet on every LM horse.
Where he had 2 horses racing i chose to have $50 on the shortest price LM horse to win and $25 each way on the other horse.
Where he had 3 horses in the same race, i went same for fav, and $12.50EW for the others, so spending no more than 100 per race.

Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790
but am still DOWN $316 up till yesterday based on that example.
How come i'm not a millionaire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REALITY CHECK NUMBER 2...
I looked at EVERY NSW Meeting in October.
There were 275 races in the state for all trainers to have a go at.
LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!!

He won 24 races, thats 8.7% holy crap, there's a domination!!!
That means 91.3% of races were won by OTHER TRAINERS!!!!!!

He had 19 places = 6.9%

He RAN LAST 9 TIMES! And this is all only for OCTOBER.

Now to the paranoid, pass this around to your mates who are walking around trotting tracks shaking their heads and raising their eyebrows!

So what you're saying now Ash is that LM isn't even good for the punters?
The argument of the LM is now taking a twist.
Why then is he good for Harness Racing?

I'm not sure if your figures are right and I'm not going to blindly accept them like some others have. Why didn't you split the bet with multiple runners instead of assigning $50 for the fav etc. ?

Furthermore, I've often seen his horse with the bigger odds win against his fav. I don't have time to to review this, however I'd be interested in those numbers. Over to you Ash on this one.

I've heard Black Caviar referred to which is prepared by leading trainer Peter Moody. His strike rate is close to a record in thoroughbreds at 20%. see http://letsgohorseracing.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1217:moody-strike-rate-one-winner-every-five-runners&catid=41:vic-a-nsw&Itemid=68
So then, if LM is at a 45% strike rate (more than double) that of the best trainer in the Thoroughbred Industry, then why are you a LM hater for questioning these unnatural statistics? What strike rate do we need to see before we say that this is ridiculous?

Cassie you make some valid points.

[zipzap]

I'm not sure if your figures are right and I'm not going to blindly accept them like some others have.
Cassie you make some valid points.

The figures are not a true indication of LMs dominance because the real percentage only includes races he has a runner in not every race in NSW

[The Rainmaker]

I thought if the LM machine is so good, what if i backed all his horses, i'd b a millionaire!!!

Since October 1 i wrote down a $100 win bet on every LM horse.
Where he had 2 horses racing i chose to have $50 on the shortest price LM horse to win and $25 each way on the other horse.
Where he had 3 horses in the same race, i went same for fav, and $12.50EW for the others, so spending no more than 100 per race.


Your statistics are flawed. You obviously can't get ahead by backing two and three horses per race where there is one winner, especially in your scenario where you had the most money on the shortest priced runner, who would be stupid enough to think you could get ahead doing that? It looks to me like a case of fudging the statistics to suit your own point of view.

A more realistic example would be to come up with the same statistics for every race LM has only one runner in, and as far as your doctored average looking strike-rate is concerned, how about races LM competed in versus races won, regardless of the number of runners he has entered.

[The Rainmaker]

Further to my post above, I just did a little research myself and and came up with some statistics of my own.

Luke McCarthy trained runners competed in 61 races in NSW over the month of December. Luke McCarthy trained runners won 36 of those races. Therefore for the month of December Luke McCarthy won 59% of all races he contested. Not a bad statistic, winning 60% of all races you contest. Makes him look like a lot better trainer than your statistics would indicate Ash.

[Maorisidol]

Great stats Maoris, based on your stats LM won 24 from 53 races, thats 45%, now lets work out how to get better odds and you will be a millionaire.
Wish I could back 45% winners

Actually because he had 66 LM trained horses start i believe his stat may be 36% for THAT MONTH...

Each month is different, he had a greater December...

[Maorisidol]

Further to my post above, I just did a little research myself and and came up with some statistics of my own.

Luke McCarthy trained runners competed in 61 races in NSW over the month of December. Luke McCarthy trained runners won 36 of those races. Therefore for the month of December Luke McCarthy won 59% of all races he contested. Not a bad statistic, winning 60% of all races you contest. Makes him look like a lot better trainer than your statistics would indicate Ash.

Eric did you miss this bit of my post...
"Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790"

See December in comparison to Oct/Nov!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes he had a great Dec as your individual stats show.
MY STATS, Eric, are based over about 14 weeks starting OCT1st to pretty much yesterday, in fact they dont even include yesterday which was a LM FREE day, so my stats should be watered down even more.
To compare my 14 week stats to your 4 weeks stats is not a true indication of his effect. And so NO i have in no way attempted to make anything look better or worse than what it is. When i started my "attempt to become a millionaire" i didnt know what the stats were going to say, i may have come up $3k in front and if i did i would be pulling my money out today to have a punt, but over 14 or so weeks on MY EXAMPLE they didnt.
Now, i am not a professional punter and i am not doing this to say my example is right by any means, there are millions of combinations anyone could try, mine was 1 out of a million simple as that. I am happy for anyone to show us all how to make money of this winning percentage, please step up, maybe we could all pool our money and all get rich at the same time?
My attempt was to try and appease this seemingly hysteria rippling thru the tracks about LM and that and as young Cassie put it, "not even the Fitzpatricks, Turnbulls etc can compete!"
Well again look at this "LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!! "

Also people, consider these 2 horses who have helped Lukes stats, Franco Jamar and Buckeye Nation.
I consider Jamar to not really be Lukes horse. He is a NZ horse, trained there and he came to Aus to stay a while...he may come back to Luke but i dont consider he is a long term
entity in Aus, i stand to be corrected but i hope u get where i am coming from, anyway that horse pumped his stats by 7 WINS, take 7 wins away and that is very effective.
Buckeye has won 3 recently and thats because Luke had the foresight to go search and choose a horse he felt could win him races over here from the US. Good luck to him well done for thinkin outside the square, now yes i know this takes money, but surely some other NSW stables could collate some owners and attempt to do the same. There is a great new Menangle track, there is great money now on offer, seriously whats stopping them, put your nuts on the table and have a go!
Combine Jamar and Buck, theres 10 wins. Take out 10? thats a lot...

[The Rainmaker]

Eric did you miss this bit of my post...
"Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790"

See December in comparison to Oct/Nov!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes he had a great Dec as your individual stats show.
MY STATS, Eric, are based over about 14 weeks starting OCT1st to pretty much yesterday, in fact they dont even include yesterday which was a LM FREE day, so my stats should be watered down even more.
To compare my 14 week stats to your 4 weeks stats is not a true indication of his effect. And so NO i have in no way attempted to make anything look better or worse than what it is. When i started my "attempt to become a millionaire" i didnt know what the stats were going to say, i may have come up $3k in front and if i did i would be pulling my money out today to have a punt, but over 14 or so weeks on MY EXAMPLE they didnt.
Now, i am not a professional punter and i am not doing this to say my example is right by any means, there are millions of combinations anyone could try, mine was 1 out of a million simple as that. I am happy for anyone to show us all how to make money of this winning percentage, please step up, maybe we could all pool our money and all get rich at the same time?
My attempt was to try and appease this seemingly hysteria rippling thru the tracks about LM and that and as young Cassie put it, "not even the Fitzpatricks, Turnbulls etc can compete!"
Well again look at this "LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!! "

Also people, consider these 2 horses who have helped Lukes stats, Franco Jamar and Buckeye Nation.
I consider Jamar to not really be Lukes horse. He is a NZ horse, trained there and he came to Aus to stay a while...he may come back to Luke but i dont consider he is a long term
entity in Aus, i stand to be corrected but i hope u get where i am coming from, anyway that horse pumped his stats by 7 WINS, take 7 wins away and that is very effective.
Buckeye has won 3 recently and thats because Luke had the foresight to go search and choose a horse he felt could win him races over here from the US. Good luck to him well done for thinkin outside the square, now yes i know this takes money, but surely some other NSW stables could collate some owners and attempt to do the same. There is a great new Menangle track, there is great money now on offer, seriously whats stopping them, put your nuts on the table and have a go!
Combine Jamar and Buck, theres 10 wins. Take out 10? thats a lot...


You make a good point Ash. If you grabbed those figures straight up I apologise, I just thought the picture your figures painted wasn't a true reflection of how dominate Luke has been in recent times. Personally I'm neither pro McCarthy or against McCarthy, if he is abiding by the rules good on him for his success, nor is it his business to tell others his training practices. I just hope some other trainers catch up soon or some big name trainers from interstate set up shop at Menangle and try and compete, if the McCarthy juggernaught rolls on and gets stronger as I expect it will, I can't see it being good for the industry in the long term, competition keeps people interested.

[racefair]

The figures are not a true indication of LMs dominance because the real percentage only includes races he has a runner in not every race in NSW

Hi Larry, the generally accepted measure of strike rate is made by dividing the number of winners by the number of starters and multiplying it by 100 to get a percentage. See the link that I copied in my original post which has the thoroughbred industry measuring it by the same method. We could do it by your method, however you will get the same outcome in seeing LM's rate nearly double that of Peter Moody the leading trainer in the Thoroughbred Industry.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Larry, the generally accepted measure of strike rate is made by dividing the number of winners by the number of starters and multiplying it by 100 to get a percentage. See the link that I copied in my original post which has the thoroughbred industry measuring it by the same method. We could do it by your method, however you will get the same outcome in seeing LM's rate nearly double that of Peter Moody the leading trainer in the Thoroughbred Industry.
Kerryn Manning is going at 33% so comparing apples and oranges in regards to leading Tbred trainer.

[candykisses]

Eric did you miss this bit of my post...
"Well in October i lost $1,121.50
In November i lost $1,222.50
in December i WON $1,790"

See December in comparison to Oct/Nov!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes he had a great Dec as your individual stats show.
MY STATS, Eric, are based over about 14 weeks starting OCT1st to pretty much yesterday, in fact they dont even include yesterday which was a LM FREE day, so my stats should be watered down even more.
To compare my 14 week stats to your 4 weeks stats is not a true indication of his effect. And so NO i have in no way attempted to make anything look better or worse than what it is. When i started my "attempt to become a millionaire" i didnt know what the stats were going to say, i may have come up $3k in front and if i did i would be pulling my money out today to have a punt, but over 14 or so weeks on MY EXAMPLE they didnt.
Now, i am not a professional punter and i am not doing this to say my example is right by any means, there are millions of combinations anyone could try, mine was 1 out of a million simple as that. I am happy for anyone to show us all how to make money of this winning percentage, please step up, maybe we could all pool our money and all get rich at the same time?
My attempt was to try and appease this seemingly hysteria rippling thru the tracks about LM and that and as young Cassie put it, "not even the Fitzpatricks, Turnbulls etc can compete!"
Well again look at this "LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!! "

Also people, consider these 2 horses who have helped Lukes stats, Franco Jamar and Buckeye Nation.
I consider Jamar to not really be Lukes horse. He is a NZ horse, trained there and he came to Aus to stay a while...he may come back to Luke but i dont consider he is a long term
entity in Aus, i stand to be corrected but i hope u get where i am coming from, anyway that horse pumped his stats by 7 WINS, take 7 wins away and that is very effective.
Buckeye has won 3 recently and thats because Luke had the foresight to go search and choose a horse he felt could win him races over here from the US. Good luck to him well done for thinkin outside the square, now yes i know this takes money, but surely some other NSW stables could collate some owners and attempt to do the same. There is a great new Menangle track, there is great money now on offer, seriously whats stopping them, put your nuts on the table and have a go!
Combine Jamar and Buck, theres 10 wins. Take out 10? thats a lot...

Hi Ash

I think the whole idea of you doing the statistics is probably a little pointless as I don't think anyone is under any doubt that Luke is NOT dominating the races he contest.
I think that every one on here from his greatest supporter to his most fierce critic agrees on that.
To include all races in NSW in a sample when he only contested 53 of them is a poor system ( why stop at NSW you could have included all of australia and NZ as well to water down his stats) You can only use the races he contest to get a true result of his succes. ( but seem as you used that method here's another way to look at those figures ,he only contested 19% of all races in NSW but won 9% of them" holy crap" as you would say)

As I pointed out in another post to you ,if you have the same wager on every one of his starters even if he wins 6 or 7 out of 10 races you will end up behind because the majority of his winners are short prices , $1.10 or $1.30 etc , so to use your punting theory to try and prove his not really winning that many races is desperate


I note as of today for the month of Jan Luke has had 9 wins from 13 races he has contested including the race his horse got knocked down and ran 4th. about 70%

I think Domination is a reasonable description

I wonder if all the members that congratulated you on your wonderful stat's will show me the same courtesy , I wont hold my breath

CHEERS CASSIE

Stop Press------------ 0 from 3 Today is that a form slump?

[Maorisidol]

Hi Ash

I think the whole idea of you doing the statistics is probably a little pointless as I don't think anyone is under any doubt that Luke is NOT dominating the races he contest.
I think that every one on here from his greatest supporter to his most fierce critic agrees on that.
To include all races in NSW in a sample when he only contested 53 of them is a poor system ( why stop at NSW you could have included all of australia and NZ as well to water down his stats) You can only use the races he contest to get a true result of his succes. ( but seem as you used that method here's another way to look at those figures ,he only contested 19% of all races in NSW but won 9% of them" holy crap" as you would say)

MAORISIDOL,
May i repeat this Cassie,
"Now, i am not a professional punter and i am not doing this to say my example is right by any means, there are millions of combinations anyone could try, mine was 1 out of a million simple as that. I am happy for anyone to show us all how to make money of this winning percentage, please step up, maybe we could all pool our money and all get rich at the same time?
My attempt was to try and appease this seemingly hysteria rippling thru the tracks about LM and that and as young Cassie put it, "not even the Fitzpatricks, Turnbulls etc can compete!"
Well again look at this "LM had horses in 53 races...thats about 19%
That means 81% of NSW races are LM FREE !!!!!!! "
Cassie the thing i got from many posts including yours was that the whole industry is under attack from the Mac!!!
All of NSW is petrified in their boots down to Maitland and the worried people getting around raising their eyebrows and shaking their heads in shock horror of this total domination. Of course he is being very very successful and dominating at times but as stated before by Craig Fritz in the "Dominatin" thread, his reply to u, post 47 explains things beautifully, u didnt quite give your verdict on that post???

Its funny, what Trainer doesnt want a winner? What Trainer wouldnt like to make good money from the trots by getting lots of winners? but when someone achieves that, its not right according to so many people, as Craig said Tall Poppy Syndrome...


As I pointed out in another post to you ,if you have the same wager on every one of his starters even if he wins 6 or 7 out of 10 races you will end up behind because the majority of his winners are short prices , $1.10 or $1.30 etc , so to use your punting theory to try and prove his not really winning that many races is desperate


I note as of today for the month of Jan Luke has had 9 wins from 13 races he has contested including the race his horse got knocked down and ran 4th. about 70%
MI.
Cassie u can give stats based on 1 race and give him 100% if its his first starter for the day and it wins, i tried to get a BIGGER picture over 14 or so weeks.

I think Domination is a reasonable description

I wonder if all the members that congratulated you on your wonderful stat's will show me the same courtesy , I wont hold my breath

CHEERS CASSIE

As Aussiebrenno has stated in Vic Kerryn Manning apparently has a 33% winning record, why arent Victorians shaking their heads about that?

[Maorisidol]

Stop Press------------ 0 from 2 so far Today is that a form slump?[/QUOTE]

NEW STATISTIC....

Luke is now one of NSW most UNSUCCESSFUL Trainers...

hip hip hooray! we can all now finish talking about him.......

[David Summers]

OMG , Luke McCarthy had three runners today and didn't have a winner!!!!!! How could this happen?? Is the world coming to an end ? Where are all the green-eyed LM haters and conspiracy theorist tonight? Probably working out which of their "identities" they will be using in the forums tonight.

Eight races and eight different winning trainers , there must definitely be something very underhanded and suspicious going on here.

Let's see , Luke had three starters , no winners , that makes 0% winners for the day. There were a lot of other trainers who finished the day with the same zero win percentage. Spooky!!

[Itisi]

OMG , Luke McCarthy had three runners today and didn't have a winner!!!!!! How could this happen?? Is the world coming to an end ? Where are all the green-eyed LM haters and conspiracy theorist tonight? Probably working out which of their "identities" they will be using in the forums tonight.

Eight races and eight different winning trainers , there must definitely be something very underhanded and suspicious going on

Let's see , Luke had three starters , no winners , that makes 0% winners for the day. There were a lot of other trainers who finished the day with the same zero win percentage. Spooky!!the cheek of the fella, not running on their merits now.

[Old Frank]

Good interview on Trots TV with Luke McCarthy.

Interesting to note how he mentions he's also put in horse scales at his farm, very professional step in maintaining his horses optium racing weight.



http://www.trotstv.com.au/?id=2755

His professionalism, including having sponsors for his team is so far ahead of 99% of trainers it isn't funny!

[tiny]

His professionalism, including having sponsors for his team is so far ahead of 99% of trainers it isn't funny!

No he is the length of the menangle straight ahead of 100% of NSW trainer.

[Old Frank]

His professionalism, including having sponsors for his team is so far ahead of 99% of trainers it isn't funny!

No he is the length of the menangle straight ahead of 100% of NSW trainer.




Hahahaha, I know Tiny, I was just trying to play it down!!!

I'm an unabashed McCarthy fan, have been since he was a kid first hitting the scene in Brisbane 10-12yrs ago with his driving. Even as a kid, his driving was superb and his training has just gone on in leaps and bounds.

We all forget how he moulded Slipnslide, Fluer De Lil etc in Brisbane even as a young man and had them winning over $2m between the pair. He's an absolute outstanding horseman and the best thing to happen to the trots in NSW in over 20yrs.

[racefair]

Good interview on Trots TV with Luke McCarthy.

Interesting to note how he mentions he's also put in horse scales at his farm, very professional step in maintaining his horses optium racing weight.



http://www.trotstv.com.au/?id=2755
His professionalism, including having sponsors for his team is so far ahead of 99% of trainers it isn't funny!

Hi Frank, thanks for the info. I haven't seen the footage yet, however sponsors for his team is a great idea and maybe HRNSW can help other trainers do same.
As for the scales... this isn't new. And although I know that every inch helps, these things aren't the reason why LM is leaps ahead of any other trainer in history.

[Maorisidol]

Hi Frank, thanks for the info. I haven't seen the footage yet, however sponsors for his team is a great idea and maybe HRNSW can help other trainers do same.
As for the scales... this isn't new. And although I know that every inch helps, these things aren't the reason why LM is leaps ahead of any other trainer in history.

And exactly why is he "leaps ahead of any other trainer in history" Racefair? Please tell us the reasons you are aware of...

[racefair]

I've highlighted my opinion on that Ash in prior posts and the reasons why I have formed that opinion. They are based on fact.
I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, however I just know that you don't have a clue if you believe that factors such as swimming holes, tracks, scales, yardsticks, professionalism etc. can provide the improvement that LM gets.
Don't you think that other trainers have these facilities or knowledge as well?
I comment because some posts imply that LM is the only person in history that knows how to train a horse. That's wrong and disrespectful to all current trainers and those of the past.
So now I ask you... specifically highlight what LM could be doing to be able to improve horses by so much in the time that he can do it?

[Old Frank]

Please don't use the word 'fact' Racefair when you don't quote any such facts.

You cannot use the word 'fact' when your only casting an opinion, and in most cases when you've attempted to use facts, they merely are 'aspersion'.

None of us have facts to Luke's success, we can only quote only contributing factors helping him towards such success, however you and the guy's oppossed to that are only claiming opinion, or at times innuendo and casting aspersion to his success.

None of you have 'fact', that is a fact.

[Maorisidol]

Please don't use the word 'fact' Racefair when you don't quote any such facts.

You cannot use the word 'fact' when your only casting an opinion, and in most cases when you've attempted to use facts, they merely are 'aspersion'.

None of us have facts to Luke's success, we can only quote only contributing factors helping him towards such success, however you and the guy's oppossed to that are only claiming opinion, or at times innuendo and casting aspersion to his success.

None of you have 'fact', that is a fact.

Quite correct Old Frank well said.

[racefair]

Please don't use the word 'fact' Racefair when you don't quote any such facts.

You cannot use the word 'fact' when your only casting an opinion, and in most cases when you've attempted to use facts, they merely are 'aspersion'.

None of us have facts to Luke's success, we can only quote only contributing factors helping him towards such success, however you and the guy's oppossed to that are only claiming opinion, or at times innuendo and casting aspersion to his success.

None of you have 'fact', that is a fact.

Thanks for your reply Nathan. I was speaking of the facts and data that we have to work with. i.e. the percentage improvement, strike rate etc. And we can benchmark against those statistics of present and past trainers in Harness Racing. We can also benchmark against other sports such as Thoroughbred Racing, Human Athletics etc.
There are alot of facts that we can form an opinion from. One fact is that LM has made/is making improvements in horses of the magnitude that you would get if you were to use performance enhancing drugs/treatments. Read books on the subject of Drugs in Racehorses/Athletes and see what type of improvements they get. Then also read books on the subject on the different training methods of Racehorses/Athletes and see the progression of improvement they get in the time that they get it.
Another fact is that the contributing factors that you and some others are referring to, won’t exclusively or in combination, get the type of improvements/results that we are seeing. Show me facts to the contrary.
I've provided some references in prior posts, however I encourage you to do your own research.
So then the only question that I have, based on history, facts and alot of other things is whether LM’s improvements/results are through legal, illegal, and/or undetectable methods.
I’d love for someone to influence me otherwise with some facts on how else such improvements/results could be made. I’ve asked before and no one has even made up a reason.
Does this make sense or am I missing something?

[racefair]

Quite correct Old Frank well said.

So now I ask you... specifically highlight what LM could be doing to be able to improve horses by so much in the time that he can do it?

I've missed a few replies Ash. Anything on this one?

[aussiebreno]

Thanks for your reply Nathan. I was speaking of the facts and data that we have to work with. i.e. the percentage improvement Minor, strike rate Nobodies allowed to improve? Look at swimming suits world records left right and centre etc. And we can benchmark against those statistics of present and past trainers in Harness Racing. We can also benchmark against other sports such as Thoroughbred Racing Kerryn Manning 33%, Peter Moody 20% (or whatever it is) blows that theory, Human Athletics Sally Pearson 19/20 (or similar freakish strike rate) last year, Luke has a fair way to go etc.
There are alot of facts that we can form an opinion from. One fact is that LM has made/is making improvements in horses of the magnitude that you would get if you were to use performance enhancing drugs/treatments. Read books on the subject of Drugs in Racehorses/Athletes and see what type of improvements they get. Then also read books on the subject on the different training methods of Racehorses/Athletes and see the progression of improvement they get in the time that they get it.
Another fact is that the contributing factors that you and some others are referring to, won’t exclusively or in combination, get the type of improvements/results that we are seeing. Show me facts to the contrary.
I've provided some references in prior posts, however I encourage you to do your own research.
So then the only question that I have, based on history, facts and alot of other things is whether LM’s improvements/results are through legal, illegal, and/or undetectable methods.
I’d love for someone to influence me otherwise with some facts on how else such improvements/results could be made. I’ve asked before and no one has even made up a reason. You've chosen to ignore or debate. Reasons have still be presented
Does this make sense or am I missing something?
You've all but said you think McCarthy is using drugs. It's a dangerous accusation on such a public medium and one that is unfair on McCarthy imo. Even if he later produces positive swabs, I think people throwing around a guys name like this is pretty disrespectful.

[Old Frank]

Thanks for your reply Nathan. I was speaking of the facts and data that we have to work with. i.e. the percentage improvement, strike rate etc. And we can benchmark against those statistics of present and past trainers in Harness Racing. We can also benchmark against other sports such as Thoroughbred Racing, Human Athletics etc.
There are alot of facts that we can form an opinion from. One fact is that LM has made/is making improvements in horses of the magnitude that you would get if you were to use performance enhancing drugs/treatments. Read books on the subject of Drugs in Racehorses/Athletes and see what type of improvements they get. Then also read books on the subject on the different training methods of Racehorses/Athletes and see the progression of improvement they get in the time that they get it.
Another fact is that the contributing factors that you and some others are referring to, won’t exclusively or in combination, get the type of improvements/results that we are seeing. Show me facts to the contrary.
I've provided some references in prior posts, however I encourage you to do your own research.
So then the only question that I have, based on history, facts and alot of other things is whether LM’s improvements/results are through legal, illegal, and/or undetectable methods.
I’d love for someone to influence me otherwise with some facts on how else such improvements/results could be made. I’ve asked before and no one has even made up a reason.
Does this make sense or am I missing something?



Racefair,

Thanks for your comments.

I was going over my thoughts to a response, but first and foremost I'll note a few observations.

Post #31 you comment about being "disrespectful to all current trainers and those of the past", yet aren't you taking quite the hypocritical position yourself of disrespecting Luke by casting aspersion and innuendo on Luke's results from being anything but performance enhancing based?

Secondly, "innocent until proven guilty" is the age-old adage we have all grown up and is 'apparently' still what the law of society is based upon however listening to you and going by your position (and of others on here also), Luke is guilty until proven innocent.

You keep asking everyone for vinidication as to Luke's success, yet this is only a deflection from yourself for not having any 'fact' yourself in which to refute his success.

I have put forth numerous points in different threads I believe would help contribute to that success as producing winners takes numerous factors to come together consistently.

I personally am an unabashed McCarthy fan and haven't hidden the fact, however I don't think his success is anything I haven't seen before either here in NSW or in other states.

David Aiken (absolute champion bloke and one of my all-time favourite trainers) trained more city winners in his prime, the Fitzpatricks followed and yes, McCarthy appears to be on his way to beating them, however he's not there yet so we can't comment on "what if's" scenario's. The Dixon's in Brisbane appear to churn out hundreds of winners also.

For anything we say or write however, it all still comes back to the original point - McCarthy's winning races, running what appears to be a tip-top operation, has no positive swabs issues or driving suspensions and is not involved in any race-fixing issues, yet jealous mugs want to dismiss his success and yes, if you wish to dispel his success, this is your right, but don't claim to base it on 'fact' when you a.) have none and b.) can't provide any to dispel any issues as we all currently are aware, are none.

This is not meant for any argument, I am simply answering your comments, however don't deflect your stance with trying to have people justify Luke's innocence when their not the ones trying to dispel it in the first instance such as your doing.

[zipzap]

You've all but said you think McCarthy is using drugs. It's a dangerous accusation on such a public medium and one that is unfair on McCarthy imo. Even if he later produces positive swabs, I think people throwing around a guys name like this is pretty disrespectful.
What a incredible part of your post, i doubt they can be called disrespectful if what you say occurs.i am not going to buy into is he or not debate. one thing i will say is lukes team will in the near future start coming back to the field in a big hurry that is a no brainer.

[Old Frank]

Thanks for your reply Nathan. I was speaking of the facts and data that we have to work with. i.e. the percentage improvement, strike rate etc. And we can benchmark against those statistics of present and past trainers in Harness Racing. We can also benchmark against other sports such as Thoroughbred Racing, Human Athletics etc.
There are alot of facts that we can form an opinion from. One fact is that LM has made/is making improvements in horses of the magnitude that you would get if you were to use performance enhancing drugs/treatments. Read books on the subject of Drugs in Racehorses/Athletes and see what type of improvements they get. Then also read books on the subject on the different training methods of Racehorses/Athletes and see the progression of improvement they get in the time that they get it.
Another fact is that the contributing factors that you and some others are referring to, won’t exclusively or in combination, get the type of improvements/results that we are seeing. Show me facts to the contrary.
I've provided some references in prior posts, however I encourage you to do your own research.
So then the only question that I have, based on history, facts and alot of other things is whether LM’s improvements/results are through legal, illegal, and/or undetectable methods.
I’d love for someone to influence me otherwise with some facts on how else such improvements/results could be made. I’ve asked before and no one has even made up a reason.
Does this make sense or am I missing something?



Do you know Racefair, I genuinally don't believe Luke is improving horses to the level you or others are insinuating. In a generalised view, your all insinuating he has sent these horses off the charts, yet in my view, it's simply a case of a stable in a 'purple patch'.

How come he doesn't win every race? He had no winners Tuesday just gone, so where's the improvement?

I don't know you from a bar of soap, but I assume your an industry man and if not, you've still probably heard the term on race coverage at times 'hit their mark', well maybe the majority of McCarthy's team through the first part of the stables season success may be ready 'to hit their mark' and not carry on their winning percentages in the back half of the season?

Horses transfer from trainer to trainer, always have, always will and like all situations, some acheive success and some don't, that's life. I've seen horses leave 'top trainers' and do a great job elsewhere as much as I've seen them leave top trainers and go no good. I've asked this question before, maybe the horses that have left 'top trainers' to come to Luke are only running up to the ability potential they showed elsewhere, yet because the horse transferred to him at the right time he's enjoying the benefits of the horse on the right mark and at the right time and the horse is now running to it's maximum ability. Improvement could come with Luke's better driving as in my opinion, he's got the lot covered at Menangle by a long way.

Some smart ass on here the other day tried to insinuate Luke's success using and comparing to the 'Lou Pena' scenario yet that's vastly different (and bullshit!), Luke isn't taking 1.52 and 1.53 type claimers and within 1-2 weeks having them back at the Meadowlands winning in 1.48 and change in better class company!!! That is a complete and utter farce and that simply isn't the case here with McCarthy's results.

Comments made on here also have referred to the times they are running. Gentleman as a whole, get with the program, it's 2012, not 1967 Robin Dundee 2.00 Miracle Miles. Menangle has changed the dimension of racing and our thought process has to completely about face and accept that if you have a horse now and it can't go 1.53 for a mile at Menangle, it won't do the job for you.

I am only generalising again, but the majority of racing at HP used to be 2100m so acceptable mile rates of 1.58/1.59 were considered good going. Now a 2300m event goes a lot quicker so it's only logical that a 1600m event will be quicker again. From what I see and I could be wrong, mile racing is more dominant than ever at Menangle so our base platform for assessment is vastly different.

You made dismissive comments about Luke's facilities and the contribution they would have to his success. Well Bart Cummings always said a "happy horse is a good horse" so if Luke makes the horses feel better through great facilities, both in training and for resting well it can only help I would assume? You further questioned as to don't all trainers have access to all this? Well in actual fact, no they don't.

I know a stack of trainers that train out of shit facilities, not worthy of training a dog to sit and generally complented with shit staff (stacked with weekend warriors!) and most of the time, have shit stock in the first instance that wouldn't be able to compete with quality stock that Luke receives and subsequently turns out. I would also hazard a guess that Luke cull's them at home pretty quickly or with maybe only a trial or very limited starts if he feels that won't stack up to his requirements, hence his percentages of winners / place getters should always be strong. (What's the old adage, how do you make a slow horse fast - put it on the float!)

Smaller trainers will punch around their stock all the time as they need the training fees, (I have personally heard some say these very comments) so fundamentally their pinching money from their owners, yet the horse is limited in ability or already have hit it's mark. Trainers using this methodology only play into the hands of guy's like McCarthy or a Fitzpatricks also who have horses consistently on the 'up' or 'improve'. They have a big galloping trainers mentaility to a degree and overall very happy owners as they don't abuse the owners trust by wasting their money on a slow one, they sack it and allow the owner the opportunity to source a new one. Slow horses and bullshit trainers are what driver owners away, not winning trainers such as Luke. There wouldn't be an owner in Luke's barn upset one iota I could safely assume!

I think everyone's got carried away with Luke's so-called 'improvement', yet I actually feel his success is down to numerous contributing factors (methods, feed, training facilities, quality staff working towards the common goal, quality/right horses / right mark / driving, etc, etc) all coming together for him and now consistently working well.

[M.John]

Of course some of lukes horse are going to start coming back to the field. They will get up to high in their grades, but guess what will happen than? He's put a lot of extra cash in a lot of good owners pockets so they will duly go out and buy him another horse just as good on a low mark and he will more than likely do the same job as before. The success he's had already will ensure that he has a good turnover of stock regulary and as I've said before, he's not stupid, if they can't go thru their grades he won't hold onto them foe long, that's probably the biggest reason in my opinion why he's so fa ahead is because he is a great judge of a horse. All you whinging whining sooks out there that hate to see someone succeed don't see the behind the scenes were luke may have a horse that doesn't go an good and he simply sacks it. A lot of other stables will keep them horses because at the end of every month they get a nice cheque. Yes a lot of trainers bull shit owners and farm horses for the fees. In my opinion that's were Luke is so far ahead, he's smarter.

[Old Frank]

Of course some of lukes horse are going to start coming back to the field. They will get up to high in their grades, but guess what will happen than? He's put a lot of extra cash in a lot of good owners pockets so they will duly go out and buy him another horse just as good on a low mark and he will more than likely do the same job as before. The success he's had already will ensure that he has a good turnover of stock regulary and as I've said before, he's not stupid, if they can't go thru their grades he won't hold onto them foe long, that's probably the biggest reason in my opinion why he's so fa ahead is because he is a great judge of a horse. All you whinging whining sooks out there that hate to see someone succeed don't see the behind the scenes were luke may have a horse that doesn't go an good and he simply sacks it. A lot of other stables will keep them horses because at the end of every month they get a nice cheque. Yes a lot of trainers bull shit owners and farm horses for the fees. In my opinion that's were Luke is so far ahead, he's smarter.




Great post and some absolute spot on comments, well said.

[Danno]

Edited

Steady on brenno, I'm not convinced that's within the Disney realm, remember to play nice! Do you think the "context" argument will stack up?

[zipzap]

Edited

You are the lowest form of a human, what a disgusting post by a gutless Animal. you should be barred for this post its out of order.to say im angry is a understatement you low life coward.

[racefair]

Do you know Racefair, I genuinally don't believe Luke is improving horses to the level you or others are insinuating. In a generalised view, your all insinuating he has sent these horses off the charts, yet in my view, it's simply a case of a stable in a 'purple patch'.

How come he doesn't win every race? He had no winners Tuesday just gone, so where's the improvement?

I don't know you from a bar of soap, but I assume your an industry man and if not, you've still probably heard the term on race coverage at times 'hit their mark', well maybe the majority of McCarthy's team through the first part of the stables season success may be ready 'to hit their mark' and not carry on their winning percentages in the back half of the season?

Horses transfer from trainer to trainer, always have, always will and like all situations, some acheive success and some don't, that's life. I've seen horses leave 'top trainers' and do a great job elsewhere as much as I've seen them leave top trainers and go no good. I've asked this question before, maybe the horses that have left 'top trainers' to come to Luke are only running up to the ability potential they showed elsewhere, yet because the horse transferred to him at the right time he's enjoying the benefits of the horse on the right mark and at the right time and the horse is now running to it's maximum ability. Improvement could come with Luke's better driving as in my opinion, he's got the lot covered at Menangle by a long way.

Some smart ass on here the other day tried to insinuate Luke's success using and comparing to the 'Lou Pena' scenario yet that's vastly different (and bullshit!), Luke isn't taking 1.52 and 1.53 type claimers and within 1-2 weeks having them back at the Meadowlands winning in 1.48 and change in better class company!!! That is a complete and utter farce and that simply isn't the case here with McCarthy's results.

Comments made on here also have referred to the times they are running. Gentleman as a whole, get with the program, it's 2012, not 1967 Robin Dundee 2.00 Miracle Miles. Menangle has changed the dimension of racing and our thought process has to completely about face and accept that if you have a horse now and it can't go 1.53 for a mile at Menangle, it won't do the job for you.

I am only generalising again, but the majority of racing at HP used to be 2100m so acceptable mile rates of 1.58/1.59 were considered good going. Now a 2300m event goes a lot quicker so it's only logical that a 1600m event will be quicker again. From what I see and I could be wrong, mile racing is more dominant than ever at Menangle so our base platform for assessment is vastly different.

You made dismissive comments about Luke's facilities and the contribution they would have to his success. Well Bart Cummings always said a "happy horse is a good horse" so if Luke makes the horses feel better through great facilities, both in training and for resting well it can only help I would assume? You further questioned as to don't all trainers have access to all this? Well in actual fact, no they don't.

I know a stack of trainers that train out of shit facilities, not worthy of training a dog to sit and generally complented with shit staff (stacked with weekend warriors!) and most of the time, have shit stock in the first instance that wouldn't be able to compete with quality stock that Luke receives and subsequently turns out. I would also hazard a guess that Luke cull's them at home pretty quickly or with maybe only a trial or very limited starts if he feels that won't stack up to his requirements, hence his percentages of winners / place getters should always be strong. (What's the old adage, how do you make a slow horse fast - put it on the float!)

Smaller trainers will punch around their stock all the time as they need the training fees, (I have personally heard some say these very comments) so fundamentally their pinching money from their owners, yet the horse is limited in ability or already have hit it's mark. Trainers using this methodology only play into the hands of guy's like McCarthy or a Fitzpatricks also who have horses consistently on the 'up' or 'improve'. They have a big galloping trainers mentaility to a degree and overall very happy owners as they don't abuse the owners trust by wasting their money on a slow one, they sack it and allow the owner the opportunity to source a new one. Slow horses and bullshit trainers are what driver owners away, not winning trainers such as Luke. There wouldn't be an owner in Luke's barn upset one iota I could safely assume!

I think everyone's got carried away with Luke's so-called 'improvement', yet I actually feel his success is down to numerous contributing factors (methods, feed, training facilities, quality staff working towards the common goal, quality/right horses / right mark / driving, etc, etc) all coming together for him and now consistently working well.


Hi Nathan, thanks for your detailed response. I'll do my best to respond to all replies.
1. I haven't before contributed to any forum and as such am not aware of rules and etiquette. If there are any on this forum then can someone highlight them for me and then I'll decide whether to contribute or not going forward.
2.
Post #31 you comment about being "disrespectful to all current trainers and those of the past", yet aren't you taking quite the hypocritical position yourself of disrespecting Luke by casting aspersion and innuendo on Luke's results from being anything but performance enhancing based?
If that's what you call my comments around the reasons for LM's improvements/results, then yes I am. Most trainers use drugs/treatments on their horses for a variety of reasons. I.e. to get them to perform to their ability, to help them recover, to calm them down etc. Some drugs are legal, some are illegal and some are undetectable. They have different withdrawal times etc. Others are better placed to tell you more. It's no coincidence that LM's improvement/results are similar to that you'd get using PED's. If LM is as Professional as he appears and with the money at his disposal then, why wouldn't he research and use the best drugs/treatments on the market?
3.
Secondly, "innocent until proven guilty" is the age-old adage we have all grown up and is 'apparently' still what the law of society is based upon however listening to you and going by your position (and of others on here also), Luke is guilty until proven innocent.
I think that I've covered this in [2.] . I'm not a steward or the police. It's up to them to determine if anyone's drugs/treatments are legal, legal or undetectable.
4.
You keep asking everyone for vinidication as to Luke's success, yet this is only a deflection from yourself for not having any 'fact' yourself in which to refute his success.
I'm not sure what I'm deflecting or you mean? I'm answering every point and don't get much back until now.
5.
I have put forth numerous points in different threads I believe would help contribute to that success as producing winners takes numerous factors to come together consistently.
I've seen some of them Nathan, and if you did a controlled experiment and got a trainer to try any combination of them, then you'd find that they wouldn't get any where near the improvement that you're seeing. Show me any evidence/references of these numerous factors producing the type of improvements/results that we're seeing. They don't exist.
6.
I personally am an unabashed McCarthy fan and haven't hidden the fact, however I don't think his success is anything I haven't seen before either here in NSW or in other states.
David Aiken (absolute champion bloke and one of my all-time favourite trainers) trained more city winners in his prime, the Fitzpatricks followed and yes, McCarthy appears to be on his way to beating them, however he's not there yet so we can't comment on "what if's" scenario's. The Dixon's in Brisbane appear to churn out hundreds of winners also.
Where have you seen a 45-50% strike rate, $800,000 and 300 + winners in a few months? Look at LM versus Fitzpatrick now. Why the gap? Why do you have a prime in this industry? Shouldn't you get better and better with the more experience that you have?
7.
For anything we say or write however, it all still comes back to the original point - McCarthy's winning races, running what appears to be a tip-top operation, has no positive swabs issues or driving suspensions and is not involved in any race-fixing issues, yet jealous mugs want to dismiss his success and yes, if you wish to dispel his success, this is your right, but don't claim to base it on 'fact' when you a.) have none and b.) can't provide any to dispel any issues as we all currently are aware, are none.
What do you mean by dismiss his success? No one can dismiss it and I respect him immensely for it. I've described above and previously the facts that I've based my opinions on.
8.
Do you know Racefair, I genuinally don't believe Luke is improving horses to the level you or others are insinuating. In a generalised view, your all insinuating he has sent these horses off the charts, yet in my view, it's simply a case of a stable in a 'purple patch'.
This is nonsense Nathan. Look at Lettucerockyou in the Intercity Pace recently as an example. Others have provided countless others. It will be a long time until his horses start hitting their mark when there winning by +30metres.
9.
How come he doesn't win every race? He had no winners Tuesday just gone, so where's the improvement?
The horses won't improve infinitely. This is a silly question. We discussed his strike rates and improvement rate as being more than anything in history.
10.
I don't know you from a bar of soap, but I assume your an industry man and if not, you've still probably heard the term on race coverage at times 'hit their mark', well maybe the majority of McCarthy's team through the first part of the stables season success may be ready 'to hit their mark' and not carry on their winning percentages in the back half of the season?
Horses like Grand Stride who went sub 1.53 in a 3C0 recently have a long way before they hit their mark. I'm happy to bet that LM will get stronger. I only see him getting stronger.
11.
Horses transfer from trainer to trainer, always have, always will and like all situations, some acheive success and some don't, that's life. I've seen horses leave 'top trainers' and do a great job elsewhere as much as I've seen them leave top trainers and go no good. I've asked this question before, maybe the horses that have left 'top trainers' to come to Luke are only running up to the ability potential they showed elsewhere, yet because the horse transferred to him at the right time he's enjoying the benefits of the horse on the right mark and at the right time and the horse is now running to it's maximum ability. Improvement could come with Luke's better driving as in my opinion, he's got the lot covered at Menangle by a long way.
So then LM gets them at the right time every time? There is no doubt that LM is an exceptional driver however, I'm confident that most drivers would get the same results on his trained horses. Ashley Siejka didn't lose too many when Russo's stable was in a "purple patch". Same with Jim Douglas and Ian Wilson.
12.
You made dismissive comments about Luke's facilities and the contribution they would have to his success. Well Bart Cummings always said a "happy horse is a good horse" so if Luke makes the horses feel better through great facilities, both in training and for resting well it can only help I would assume? You further questioned as to don't all trainers have access to all this? Well in actual fact, no they don't.
What facilities don't other trainers have? Please give me some examples of what facilities can make such a difference? Does Bart Cummings have a strike rate near LM? We are only talking about horses and not a highly emotional teenager.
13.
Smaller trainers will punch around their stock all the time as they need the training fees, (I have personally heard some say these very comments) so fundamentally their pinching money from their owners, yet the horse is limited in ability or already have hit it's mark. Trainers using this methodology only play into the hands of guy's like McCarthy or a Fitzpatricks also who have horses consistently on the 'up' or 'improve'. They have a big galloping trainers mentaility to a degree and overall very happy owners as they don't abuse the owners trust by wasting their money on a slow one, they sack it and allow the owner the opportunity to source a new one. Slow horses and bullshit trainers are what driver owners away, not winning trainers such as Luke. There wouldn't be an owner in Luke's barn upset one iota I could safely assume!
I agree.
14.
I think everyone's got carried away with Luke's so-called 'improvement', yet I actually feel his success is down to numerous contributing factors (methods, feed, training facilities, quality staff working towards the common goal, quality/right horses / right mark / driving, etc, etc) all coming together for him and now consistently working well.
Unfortunately Nathan these numerous contributing can't be the reasons. Tell me one thing. How can these contributing factors have such an improvement in the space of a few weeks? If the improvement wa gradual and over a few months then I can buy it. However we are seeing in consistently with any horse all of the time in a short space of time.

Finally.. mate, your one of few that has given it some thought and so thank you for that. Some have claimed some ridiculous things and won’t reply to comments around it.
I'll promise you this. If you or the stewards sat on a horse such as Lettucerockyou for 3 weeks with 24/7 security and not allowed any drugs/treatments, then you would see it hit its old mark. I'll promise you that. I've not taken notice of a horse leaving LM's stable and observed it's performance thereafter, however I'm confident that within 3 weeks they will fall in a hole. The stewards/authority must do more and not rely on a positive test from any trainer before taking action.
I don't get paid for this Nathan and am getting a little bored with it. I’d like to believe what you believe as it could be a really good story however I can’t because it doesn’t add up. Good luck to LM for being smarter and the best. Cheers,

[zipzap]

Steady on brenno, I'm not convinced that's within the Disney realm, remember to play nice! Do you think the "context" argument will stack up?

No wonder they gave him the flick from Eastdowns

[Messenger]

Steady on brenno, I'm not convinced that's within the Disney realm, remember to play nice! Do you think the "context" argument will stack up?

I am thinking Brenno had a rush of blood there and forgot to review his post. I figure Wilson instead of Watson had to be a typo - cannot be for cover after you quote a guy

[aussiebreno]

So what we've discovered is its not nice to have people say bad things about you, whether true or not?
Thankyou.
Zipzap you have good googling skills to know where I work, well done champ *thumbsup*.

And yes I went to an extreme to prove it but it got the desired reaction.

[triplev123]

Hey Breno, I can see & I can completely understand exactly where you are coming there...you've gone to an extreme/absurd level to make a point...but Trooper, there are probably better ways to make it. You'd be best to delete that one and try again.

[triplev123]

You beat me to it.

[aussiebreno]

Hey Breno, I can see & I can completely understand exactly where you are coming there...you've gone to an extreme/absurd level to make a point...but Trooper, there are probably better ways to make it. You'd be best to delete that one and try again.
Must have sensed you typing that one!

[zipzap]

So what we've discovered is its not nice to have people say bad things about you, whether true or not?
Thankyou.
Zipzap you have good googling skills to know where I work, well done champ *thumbsup*.

And yes I went to an extreme to prove it but it got the desired reaction.

Dosnt alter the fact your a low life

[triplev123]

Ok, onwards and upwards.

Zipzap, maybe you can you do the same with your replies? That way it's gone.

I find myself in unfamiliar territory here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

Physically, Rod Serling and I have nothing in common. :p

[aussiebreno]

Dosnt alter the fact your a low life
Still haven't learnt a lesson I see.
Not that I care, I'm comfortable with whatever you want to throw at me but whats good for the goose should be good for the gander.

[zipzap]

Still haven't learnt a lesson I see.

why dont you teach me a lesson number cruncher

[triplev123]

Breno, ZipZap, let it drop fellas, please.
It does nobody any good.
Breno was in the wrong...intentionally or otherwise, doesn't matter, that's it, all silent, all done.

[Messenger]

I know there has been an appeal for more mods but what has happened to existing mods. Like I have said before, new here but long time Big Footy forum poster and Brendan can even tell you he would have got an instant ban for his post on Big Footy and they don't even use real names. You may have got the reaction you wanted Brendan but a little 'I apologize for going over the top' was in order.