BOOM.....McCarthy Positive.

[Stonie]

Just announced.....

Harness Racing New South Wales has received a report from the Australian Racing Forensic Laboratory (ARFL) that boldenone, at a level greater than 15 micrograms per litre in urine, has been detected in a post race urine sample taken from Mach Wiper following its win in the NXFM Newcastle Cup (2550metres) run at Newcastle on 9 December 2011.

The “B” sample and the control were sent to the Hong Kong Jockey Club Racing Laboratory (HKJC) for confirmation, and the HKJC has today confirm the presence of boldenone in the post race urine sample taken from Mach Wiper on 9 December 2011.
Trainer Mr Luke McCarthy has been advised of these findings. An inquiry will be conducted at a time and date to be fixed.
Acting under the provisions of Australian Harness Racing Rule 183 (A), Mach Wiper has been stood down until further notice.

[barney]

Was told that the weekend

[Harold Parker]

Could explain his performance in the sulky on Saturday night. Never seen him drive worse.

[Harold Parker]

"Leading horse trainer Gai Waterhouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gai_Waterhouse) has been fined $10,000 after being found guilty on the 15th of May 2008 of presenting a horse to the races with a prohibited substance in its system. Her horse Perfectly Poised was found to have traces of the banned substance boldenone in its system after finishing second at Canterbury in April 2007."

[Harold Parker]

"It has a very long half-life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life), and can show up on a steroid test for up to 1.5 years, due to the long undecylenate ester attached to the parent steroid. Trace amounts of the drug can easily be detected for months after discontinued use."

Wikapedia.

[M.John]

You all seem pleased to hear this ... Again one of the reasons this industry is up shit creek, people enjoying other people not having success. Seems to me that the majority of you people seem to use other people's demise as your own success because you are yourself incapable.

The bottom line here is tha once again the only publicity this industry is going to get is going to be bad. But the only view that will be given in this forum is of the numerous people who have been jealous of Lukes success trying to tell everyone how big of a cheat he is.

[Stonie]

Not happy to see success by cheating.
It was only a matter of time.

Mach Wiper is the horse and it was some time back.

[Stonie]

Was told that the weekend

Yes Barney, many knew but until announced anything on here is a rumour or sledge and is deleted or banned.
I knew this some time back but without official statement its a waste of time in here.

[Stonie]

Well said Pete.
He will still be seen as a "great trainer" as commonly referred to on here.

Real great.
I have heard plenty more but cannot divulge on here.

[hillbillydeluxe]

What will be interesting is- what will the penalty be?

[barney]

This is not the McCarthys but another trainer in another era once said to a friend of mine.
Dont ask me what im using ask me what im masking it with

[Stonie]

I bet HarnessLink will have it on their website before HRNSW........as usual.

[peteboss4]

What will be interesting is- what will the penalty be?

This is EXCATLY where SAM needs to stand up & be counted...........its not bicarb. Steroid use is abusive & cruel.

[peteboss4]

Anabolic steroids (http://www.testcountry.com/wiki/steroid-abuse-signs-symptoms-testing.html) are used by athletes, although their use is banned in most major sports. They are performance enhancing drugs that will build up bigger muscles and give longer endurance. Anabolic steroids are illegal in horse racing, although some trainers still use these drugs on horses to make them run faster and give them more endurance on the track. These drugs can be discovered when drug testing (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=18) the animal at which time they will usually be disqualified from a race. However, since not all horse racing is tightly regulated, especially in the case of harness racing, these drugs are often used before a race in an effort to get a horse to speed up. Four steroids that are used for horses that are banned are stanozolol, boldenone, nandrolene and testosterone.


Read more: http://www.testcountry.org/3-most-common-performance-enhancing-drugs-steroids-in-horse-racing.htm#ixzz1mEdqmqC8 (http://www.testcountry.org/3-most-common-performance-enhancing-drugs-steroids-in-horse-racing.htm#ixzz1mEdqmqC8)

Boldenone.

[TSW]

You all seem pleased to hear this ... Again one of the reasons this industry is up shit creek, people enjoying other people not having success. Seems to me that the majority of you people seem to use other people's demise as your own success because you are yourself incapable.

The bottom line here is tha once again the only publicity this industry is going to get is going to be bad. But the only view that will be given in this forum is of the numerous people who have been jealous of Lukes success trying to tell everyone how big of a cheat he is.

One of the most IDIOTIC comments ever written on any Forum. People do not begrudge anyone's success if attained from hard work, honesty and completely by the rules.
This news, which i knew about nealry 2 weeks ago has CONFIRMED everyone's suspicions about L Mc. The Golden Child, The Harmess Racing Poster Boy. The performances of his sunsequent runners hold testament to his guilt in CHEATING Owners, Drivers and Trainers out of what probably was rightly theirs. Let's see how many bandwagon jumpers now disembark this sinking ship. No doubt, Luke McCarthy can train a horse but not improve them laps to the detriment of previous trainers, NO WAY. This may only be one positive at the moment and wether they re test other swabs is problematical. The other near certainty is that L Mc will have a plausible excuse and this will assist in lessening the penalty that he gets. One problem he will have is seeing where he is going as he will be walking around with his head hung in shame.
For the L Mc diehards, and let us call you Cleopatras as you will all be in denial, look at this objectively if you can but you probably won't be able to bear that for the sake of losing sleep ove r the fact that your God has been found out.

[peteboss4]

[QUOTE=Stonie;16966]Well said Pete.
He will still be seen as a "great trainer" as commonly referred to on here.

Not by the people who have been trying to make an HONEST living he won't

[Stonie]

Peteboss ... All I simply care about is the state of the game and once again more and more negative publicity is going to arise. I've never been a massive Luke fan, was a fan of all upping his horses and making a dollar or two. He got a positive, great, give him his 6 or 12 months and he'll be back. You don't like cheats ... Well being involved with anything that has money involved. I dont like people taking PLEASURE in a wonderful industry slowly demising. I bet you got a kick out of being the first to break the bad news and were happy to hear it. If you really cared about the industry you would have never wanted to hear it.

Well Im happy you made money from his cheating....
Others with TCo2 positives on here got smashed.
Steroids are much much worse and would probably explain a handful of his horses becoming very ill over the last few months of his domination by cheating.
Quite often Luke McCarthy trained horses are rough in the score-up as I would be if filled with a unfamiliar substance.

[TSW]

Peteboss ... . All I simply care about is the state of the game and once again more and more negative publicity is going to arise. I've never been a massive Luke fan, was a fan of all upping his horses and making a dollar or two. He got a positive, great, give him his 6 or 12 months and he'll be back. You don't like cheats ... Well being involved with anything that has money involved. I dont like people taking PLEASURE in a wonderful industry slowly demising. I bet you got a kick out of being the first to break the bad news and were happy to hear it. If you really cared about the industry you would have never wanted to hear it.

Michael, many have been sitting on this news for a while now but unable to divulge and details until official confirmation was made. It's simply a case of the floodgates opening up full throttle. No one is gaing delight in the fact that Harness racing has been further been dragged through the slime but that the supposed Wonder Boy that most knew has been cheating, has been caught out. To turn Cinderella into Ben Johnson just by traditional training methods is hard for anyone to swallow. The Topic is about L McCarthy's positive, let the people have their say.

[hillbillydeluxe]

The penalty should be severe being a steroid but what worries me is, are the powers to be going to allow that to happen? due to his exposure etc or do they really do the right thing and make it known in the industry that IT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm , he will suffer somewhat as publicly everyone knows that it is not as if his horse was in a paddock and had a hi bi carb scenario/exscuse. he no doubt will have top legal representation.

[M.John]

No shit, I could tell you how much the stuff he's been using costs, that will explain why hobbie trainers horses don't go as good. (only from what I've been told) I really dont care if he got life. I'm not some diehard fan of lukes. He makes the races boring when everyone else is too scared to take him on and he gets gifted the race. All I'm trying to say is that it's not good news for the industry, more bad publicity. But I guess most of you have been waiting for this day when you can publicly slam Luke so go for it. I really couldn't care.

[Stonie]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=95685

Haha Harnesslink once again beats HRNSW....

[M.John]

Yes exactly TSW. Let it out he probably deserves it. But the industry doesn't.

[TSW]

If an Athlete or professional sportsman is caught using steroids it's an automatic 2 years. Sounds good to me. Sam, leave it to us to decide or simply read all these posts and it will make your job easier.
May be a good idea for L Mc to chop down all of his trees. Seems there's a lynch mob gathering.

[peteboss4]

Peteboss ... . All I simply care about is the state of the game and once again more and more negative publicity is going to arise. I've never been a massive Luke fan, was a fan of all upping his horses and making a dollar or two. He got a positive, great, give him his 6 or 12 months and he'll be back. You don't like cheats ... Well being involved with anything that has money involved. I dont like people taking PLEASURE in a wonderful industry slowly demising. I bet you got a kick out of being the first to break the bad news and were happy to hear it. If you really cared about the industry you would have never wanted to hear it.

What don't you understand about how good this is for the sinking industry, once again.......SAM is doing a great job HE IS GETTING THE CHEATS !!!!!!!!

[barney]

As a person involved in the sport said to me Saturday He has 3 nice 2yos and he can now tip them to me as will be an even playing field up to now wasnt.

[peteboss4]

If an Athlete or professional sportsman is caught using steroids it's an automatic 2 years. Sounds good to me. Sam, leave it to us to decide or simply read all these posts and it will make your job easier.
May be a good idea for L Mc to chop down all of his trees. Seems there's a lynch mob gathering.

Should be open slather, for ALL the people who KNEW he was cheating but needed that PROOF........I so happy with Sam I could kiss him. (well shake his hand at least)

[TSW]

Geez, I hope they let you have your say, Bulldog, and don't kick you off. The advertisers will also love it. Love your work. Keep it up. But remember what Gaddaffi once said, "you cross this line, you die " Read it with an Arabic accent, sounds funnier.

[TSW]

This topic has to be locked soon. The Moderators are still in a spin reading all the posts and it's only dizziness that's keeping them away from the 'Red Button". One thing that will shorten us all up is the fact it has only been ONE positive so far. But what we all know, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..........

[Stonie]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/MediaViewer.cgi?ID=54869

For those who dont get to the track.......

[Triple V]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=95685

Haha Harnesslink once again beats HRNSW....


[VVV] Once again beats? How so? In fact, not so Stonie. HRNSW sent the press release at a little after 3pm today. That story was then written from the press release sent by HRNSW to Harnesslink.

[Stonie]

[VVV] Once again beats? How so? In fact, not so Stonie. HRNSW sent the press release at a little after 3pm today. That story was then written from the press release sent by HRNSW to Harnesslink.

Show me where it is on the website..........

[Stonie]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17549

Related maybe....

[Stonie]

[VVV] Once again beats? How so? In fact, not so Stonie. HRNSW sent the press release at a little after 3pm today. That story was then written from the press release sent by HRNSW to Harnesslink.

Is that all you have VVV???

Nothing to say about WonderBoy or the Great One.

[bathurst bulldog]

Ok I will say it..... Luke McCarthy has been caught CHEATING this dosnt come as a surprise as a matter of fact what surprises me is why did they take so long to catch him.

he is a good trainer/ driver but then againso could anyone with a helping hand from the lab

[Triple V]

Fellas, I reckon this has been building like a thunder storm in summer.
To knock off a line from a mate of mine, if Luke had gotten a Panadol positive the roof would have fallen in on him. That's beside the point to a fair degree and of course, that doesn't excuse the Boldenone...which incidentally is nothing like what so many had been putting about was that which had been found but I digress. We can get onto that later.
While some of the comments are understandable they simply can't be made in a public forum such as this and so they've obviously been deleted or modified. If you don't like it then bad luck, that's how it is.
I'll now ask one thing of you fellas and that is to please just remember one thing...when the result of the next one of these confirmatory tests comes to light...yes, that's right there's another one on the way and to the same substance from what I understand....and, if my information is correct when all you guys see the name of the trainer that is said to be attached to it, in the interests of evenhandedness and fairness...please be sure to be just as vitriolic and damning. I very much doubt that it will be so however, prove me wrong. It'll be your chance to prove that it's not all about personalities and success and that you're really the champions of clean racing you're making yourselves out to be.

[Triple V]

Try to stick to the subject Glenn. Take a deep breath and focus.

[Old Frank]

Fellas, I reckon this has been building like a thunder storm in summer.

To knock off a line from a mate of mine, if Luke had gotten a Panadol positive the roof would have fallen in on him. That's beside the point to a fair degree and of course, that doesn't excuse the Boldenone...which incidentally is nothing like what so many had been putting about was that which had been found but I digress. We can get onto that later.

While some of the comments are understandable they simply can't be made in a public forum such as this and so they've obviously been deleted or modified. If you don't like it then bad luck, that's how it is.

I'll now ask one thing of you fellas and that is to please just remember one thing...when the result of the next one of these confirmatory tests comes to light...yes, that's right there's another one on the way and to the same substance from what I understand....and, if my information is correct when all you guys see the name of the trainer that is said to be attached to it, in the interests of evenhandedness and fairness...please be sure to be just as vitriolic and damning.

I very much doubt that it will be so however, prove me wrong. It'll be your chance to prove that it's not all about personalities and success and that you're really the champions of clean racing you're making yourselves out to be.



I don't disagree with this, well said.

L.McCarthy has been charged and as yet not even made his defence but the court of public opinion has him hung, drawn and quartered.

At least allow him his defence which he, or any other would be entitled.

[bathurst bulldog]

I don't disagree with this, well said.

L.McCarthy has been charged and as yet not even made his defence but the court of public opinion has him hung, drawn and quartered.

At least allow him his defence which he, or any other would be entitled.

His Lawyers will now be in camera trying to figure out how they can lie their way through this.

now off you go and leave your tooth in the jar for the fairy

[Stonie]

I'll now ask one thing of you fellas and that is to please just remember one thing...when the result of the next one of these confirmatory tests comes to light...yes, that's right there's another one on the way and to the same substance from what I understand....and, if my information is correct when all you guys see the name of the trainer that is said to be attached to it, in the interests of evenhandedness and fairness...please be sure to be just as vitriolic and damning. I very much doubt that it will be so however, prove me wrong. It'll be your chance to prove that it's not all about personalities and success and that you're really the champions of clean racing you're making yourselves out to be.

I know what/who you are referring to....
Why dont you go and ask that person where they got it from.........BOOM.

[Stonie]

His Lawyers will now be in camera trying to figure out how they can lie their way through this.

now off you go and leave your tooth in the jar for the fairy

Good onya.....
Now they wont believe in Santa either.

[peteboss4]

I don't disagree with this, well said.

L.McCarthy has been charged and as yet not even made his defence but the court of public opinion has him hung, drawn and quartered.

At least allow him his defence which he, or any other would be entitled.

And with good reason. One can only hope SAM sends ALL his frozen swabs to Hong Kong.

[The Rainmaker]

"It has a very long half-life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life), and can show up on a steroid test for up to 1.5 years, due to the long undecylenate ester attached to the parent steroid. Trace amounts of the drug can easily be detected for months after discontinued use."

Wikapedia.

If that is the case Mach Wiper should've tested positive to Boldenone when winning two races in succession at Menangle a couple of weeks prior to the Newcastle Cup, and then potentially again when he won the Goulburn Cup 6 or so weeks later. I can't see how that statement can be accurate or used as a defence.

The ironic thing here is that if/when Mach Wiper get disqualified from the Newcastle Cup his stablemate Roman Stride will be declared the winner, so it's still a victory to team McCarthy.

[mightymo]

Yes I do have horses with Luke but most importantly I am a believer in justice.

Most of you Luke haters obviously have not done your research on Boldenone.

Firstly and most importantly, it has a VERY long periods within which it remains in a horses system. At least 3 months and up to 9 months. Speak to any vet(I have spoken to 2) or read up on the internet.

How then do you explain the fact that Mach Wiper tested negative 2 weeks either side of the positive reading.??

Secondly, Boldenone is a natural substance which often occurs in stallions. Mach Wiper just happens to be a stallion

Thirdly, the testing for Boldenone is widely recognised as being very difficult and the same horse can have vastly different levels recorded on the same day.

In a nutshell, this is something that you Luke haters need to read up on as i think you will find that the scientific evidence will prove that there is no cheating involved...

[Stonie]

Very costly exercise to send them all to Hong Kong and thats probably why the positive has not been until now.
What should be done though now is since a positive to steroids has been detected all frozen McCarthy swabs should be sent and billed to the inquiry and ultimately the outcome.

Steroids should not be tolerated in any sport.......
If it was a TCo2 then it would be thrown into the pile with the other 400 recently.

[Stonie]

Yes I do have horses with Luke but most importantly I am a believer in justice.

Most of you Luke haters obviously have not done your research on Boldenone.

Firstly and most importantly, it has a VERY long periods within which it remains in a horses system. At least 3 months and up to 9 months. Speak to any vet(I have spoken to 2) or read up on the internet.

How then do you explain the fact that Mach Wiper tested negative 2 weeks either side of the positive reading.??

Secondly, Boldenone is a natural substance which often occurs in stallions. Mach Wiper just happens to be a stallion

Thirdly, the testing for Boldenone is widely recognised as being very difficult and the same horse can have vastly different levels recorded on the same day.

In a nutshell, this is something that you Luke haters need to read up on as i think you will find that the scientific evidence will prove that there is no cheating involved...

Yeah TC02 is also a natural substance in horses.......foolish.
Masking agents are also used.......
Not to mention IT IS A STEROID AND YOU DONT TAKE YOUR HORSES TO THE RACES IF YOU HAVE USED IT.

He is a cheat and its now official..........................

[Stonie]

Where do you think he got his stuff from????????

[TSW]

Where do you think he got his stuff from????????

Oh SIR, Sir....Pick me, I know the answer to this one. If I say it, this post will go BOOM

[Stonie]

Oh SIR, Sir....Pick me, I know the answer to this one. If I say it, this post will go BOOM

DONT SAY IT.......This thread has the potential to be the biggest ever.

[Itisi]

I think a few of you posters on here need to step back from your keyboard and take a few deep breaths, for f... sake what's happened to giving a bloke a fair go to proven guilty. Most of you posters who confess to being in or involved in horses should know better, I also know that the mods should not only be removing bad posts but banning you from here. Good Luck

[Stonie]

I think a few of you posters on here need to step back from your keyboard and take a few deep breaths, for f... sake what's happened to giving a bloke a fair go to proven guilty. Most of you posters who confess to being in or involved in horses should know better, I also know that the mods should not only be removing bad posts but banning you dick heads from here. Good Luck

Thanks Mick........Now go away.

[Lenem]

Yes I do have horses with Luke but most importantly I am a believer in justice.

Most of you Luke haters obviously have not done your research on Boldenone.

Firstly and most importantly, it has a VERY long periods within which it remains in a horses system. At least 3 months and up to 9 months. Speak to any vet(I have spoken to 2) or read up on the internet.

How then do you explain the fact that Mach Wiper tested negative 2 weeks either side of the positive reading.??

Secondly, Boldenone is a natural substance which often occurs in stallions. Mach Wiper just happens to be a stallion

Thirdly, the testing for Boldenone is widely recognised as being very difficult and the same horse can have vastly different levels recorded on the same day.

In a nutshell, this is something that you Luke haters need to read up on as i think you will find that the scientific evidence will prove that there is no cheating involved...

"Justice" appears to be a concept foreign to many of the self proclaimed "experts" posting here !

[TSW]

DONT SAY IT.......This thread has the potential to be the biggest ever.

We must consider the advertisers who will be demanding to have their products posted on this topic

[TSW]

I think a few of you posters on here need to step back from your keyboard and take a few deep breaths, for f... sake what's happened to giving a bloke a fair go to proven guilty. Most of you posters who confess to being in or involved in horses should know better, I also know that the mods should not only be removing bad posts but banning you dick heads from here. Good Luck

You have the Law and the Legal System with all it's points of law and other jibberish rewarding Thieves, murderers and other types of criminals with one form of jargon or another and blaming their actions on bad childhoods or bed wetting etc ............. Most here are dealing out Natural Justice. Remember the duck quote earlier

[Mighty Atom]

I'm a little ambivalent on weather steroids should be banned and I'm not convinced they are not being used still. Back in the 70's & 80's they were a basic part of a trainers conditioning of the horse having great value as a therapeutic treatment. Everybody was using them. I had a cupboard full;I could rattle off 8 different products. Steroids became a dirty word , mentioned in the same category as heroin and I think this came about through the bad publicity of steroid abuse in gyms. Boldenone alone is not going to be a huge performance enhancer.

[Old Frank]

His Lawyers will now be in camera trying to figure out how they can lie their way through this.

now off you go and leave your tooth in the jar for the fairy


Did Luke steal your lunch money at school Bulldog? You seem very brave behind your keyboard with your 3 posts?

[clumsy]

Yes I do have horses with Luke but most importantly I am a believer in justice.

Most of you Luke haters obviously have not done your research on Boldenone.

Firstly and most importantly, it has a VERY long periods within which it remains in a horses system. At least 3 months and up to 9 months. Speak to any vet(I have spoken to 2) or read up on the internet.

How then do you explain the fact that Mach Wiper tested negative 2 weeks either side of the positive reading.??

Secondly, Boldenone is a natural substance which often occurs in stallions. Mach Wiper just happens to be a stallion

Thirdly, the testing for Boldenone is widely recognised as being very difficult and the same horse can have vastly different levels recorded on the same day.

In a nutshell, this is something that you Luke haters need to read up on as i think you will find that the scientific evidence will prove that there is no cheating involved...
I know every is excited about this,but be careful, as mightymo has stated Boldernone is a natural substance in stallions. I am sure Luke will have plenty of evidence to support this and will be found to be not guilty.

[little fish]

No idea what to make of this yet. If I found out my trainer was cheating I would be absolutely devestated.

[Itisi]

Very costly exercise to send them all to Hong Kong and thats probably why the positive has not been until now.
What should be done though now is since a positive to steroids has been detected all frozen McCarthy swabs should be sent and billed to the inquiry and ultimately the outcome.

Steroids should not be tolerated in any sport.......
If it was a TCo2 then it would be thrown into the pile with the other 400 recently.
Tell me to go away you ignorant p.... They do test for it here in the first place,then when bells ring they send the B sample to Hong Kong for confirmation. If your so keen to hang him you offer to send whatever you think they have got in some freezer somewhere. Sorry mate but you really have no idea what's going on and all you are doing is running with the thread. If you are so switch on please try and find out why they would have frozen swabs of Mcarthys and where the freezer is.

[William]

Tell me to go away you ignorant p.... They do test for it here in the first place,then when bells ring they send the B sample to Hong Kong for confirmation. If your so keen to hang him you offer to send whatever you think they have got in some freezer somewhere. Sorry mate but you really have no idea what's going on and all you are doing is running with the thread. If you are so switch on please try and find out why they would have frozen swabs of Mcarthys and where the freezer is.

Mick they have frozen swabs from everyone

[Itisi]

Mick they have frozen swabs from everyone
Thats what they say, but how many trainers been caught with a frozen swab. I was pointing out to stonie that it's the B sample they send of after getting a reading on the A sample. They would need a bloody big freezer to keep all these swabs But believe what you want.

[murray green]

I just came home from work and WOW the rumours were spot on . I suppose the Luke supporters will try to use the Force and come up with excuses . You guys impress me with your loyalty . I'm not going to knock Luke but he will still win the premiership and won't the presentation night have its uncomfortable moments . Looking at the facts from another side . There hasn't been a positive to this steroid for years and all of a sudden we have one and , if rumours are right , another from a close friend . That just doesn't add up . I hope the supporters don't try and justify this IF he is found guilty . If he is lets hope he's man enough to fess up .

[NormanS]

I was hoping that the roumor mill had got this one wrong. LM Had (has) the harness world at his feet and was bringing professionalism to NSW that was badly needed. However...



Secondly, Boldenone is a natural substance which often occurs in stallions. Mach Wiper just happens to be a stallion
...

Not sure about this part - (natural substance)
These would suggest a synthetic version is available.

http://stablemade.com/hproducts/drugs/Equipoise.htm

This was just one of many sites that stated Boldenone Undecylenate is a synthetic. A synthetic actually developed to be an injectable.
or
http://www.steroid.com/Equipoise.php
"Equipoise was actually created while attempting to make a product which would be be a long acting injectable d-bol (Methandrostenolone).


Feel free to correct me if evidence says im wrong

[mightymo]

Norman


I need to correct you! :):)

From:

http://www.losalamitos.com/pdfs/chrb/CHRBAdvisories.pdf


"Threshold levels have been established for testosterone, boldenone, nandrolone, and
stanzolol. The first three are naturally occurring, also known as endogenous,
in the horse. Testosterone is present in intact males, gelded males, and
fillies. Nandrolone and boldenone are naturally occurring in non-gelded
males"

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Out of all the winners he's had over the last 12 months, why has he had only 1 positve?

[murray green]

Equipoise is the brand name for the steroid hormone boldenone, a product used mostly in cows and horses to improve their lean body mass. Equipoise has a number of uses for bodybuilders and athletes, from stimulating EPO (erythropoietin) production to increase the number of red blood cells (thereby increasing endurance), to gaining muscle mass easily (indirectly by increasing the appetite), to allowing a user to "cut" bodyweight by leaning out the muscle tissue.


In boldenone is an interesting property - it stimulates the release of erythropoietin in the kidneys, which eventually leads to an increase in the number of red blood cells.

Interesting reading........also boldenone is the preferred steroid chosen by the endurance athlete.

Studies done on young horses show that natural levels can not be detected unless injected. Not sure about older horses.

[NormanS]

Have edited (although all the information i can find talks about boldenone Undecylenate being similar to the natural steroid Testosterone), but this paragraph from the same is important and should not be ignored: http://www.losalamitos.com/pdfs/chrb/CHRBAdvisories.pdf

The CHRB’s anabolic steroid regulations are modified from the RMTC model rules,
which in turn are based on long established international regulations for anabolic steroids.
Testosterone, nandrolone, and boldenone are endogenous anabolic steroids. Endogenous means
they occur naturally. The normal levels of these endogenous anabolic steroids have been well
established in the horses for urine and the regulatory threshold levels for a violation have a wide
safety margin. Horses that have not been administered anabolic steroids are not in danger of a
positive. However, boldenone is manufactured as Equipoise®; nandrolone is manufactured as
Durabolin®; and testosterone is manufactured as generic testosterone.

Also, from the article "Normal Steroid Levels in Racehorses"

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=15889#ixzz1mFxE3uyr

Boldenone was not detected in any horses. Moeller noted that any boldenone level is highly suggestive of steroid administration.

[Danno]

Have edited (although all the information i can find talks about boldenone Undecylenate being derived from Testosterone), but this paragraph from the same is important and should not be ignored: http://www.losalamitos.com/pdfs/chrb/CHRBAdvisories.pdf

The CHRB’s anabolic steroid regulations are modified from the RMTC model rules,
which in turn are based on long established international regulations for anabolic steroids.
Testosterone, nandrolone, and boldenone are endogenous anabolic steroids. Endogenous means
they occur naturally. The normal levels of these endogenous anabolic steroids have been well
established in the horses for urine and the regulatory threshold levels for a violation have a wide
safety margin. Horses that have not been administered anabolic steroids are not in danger of a
positive. However, boldenone is manufactured as Equipoise®; nandrolone is manufactured as
Durabolin®; and testosterone is manufactured as generic testosterone.






Norman


I need to correct you! :):)

From:

http://www.losalamitos.com/pdfs/chrb/CHRBAdvisories.pdf (http://www.losalamitos.com/pdfs/chrb/CHRBAdvisories.pdf)


"Threshold levels have been established for testosterone, boldenone, nandrolone, and
stanzolol. The first three are naturally occurring, also known as endogenous,
in the horse. Testosterone is present in intact males, gelded males, and
fillies. Nandrolone and boldenone are naturally occurring in non-gelded
males"


Harvey and Norman,
You guys have both sourced your data from the same place but end up with competing arguments???
I would like to state for the record, I have never bought into the LM debate, despite having my own opinions which are based on observations only and that is why my opinions have not been aired on this forum, 'cos their based on observations only.
Now back to the inconsistencies with the opinions on the data.. Question... are you BOTH telling the whole truth?? or did one of you miss a bit of vital information?

once again I have my suspicions.....:) :) :)

[NormanS]

wrote someting then changed my mind

[mightymo]

Harvey and Norman,
You guys have both sourced your data from the same place but end up with competing arguments???
I would like to state for the record, I have never bought into the LM debate, despite having my own opinions which are based on observations only and that is why my opinions have not been aired on this forum, 'cos their based on observations only.
Now back to the inconsistencies with the opinions on the data.. Question... are you BOTH telling the whole truth?? or did one of you miss a bit of vital information?

once again I have my suspicions.....:) :) :)


I urge you to contact your vet/s like i did(not Luke's vets, but vets I know and use around the country) and ask them questions

[Viv Strangman]

I cant believe some of the postings on here. I was always under the impression that you were innocent until proven guilty but sadly not in Australia. Just from an outside prospective it would seem far from an open and shut case. Boldenone remains in the body a long time and for the horse in question to race either side of the *POSTIVE* and not have further positives tests for Boldenone raises serious questions. What would trigger a higher reading on one occassion and not on the others. Is it possible to have a postive one time and negative the next when Boldenone is in your system. I will leave that to the experts to fathom but what I wont do is condem someone until all the facts have been heard in the approiate forum. Once all the information is out in the public domain , I will then be able to make an informed decision on the rights and wrongs of this case. To do so before then is to do so from a position of ignorance.

[p plater]

I cant believe some of the postings on here. I was always under the impression that you were innocent until proven guilty but sadly not in Australia. Just from an outside prospective it would seem far from an open and shut case. Boldenone remains in the body a long time and for the horse in question to race either side of the *POSTIVE* and not have further positives tests for Boldenone raises serious questions. What would trigger a higher reading on one occassion and not on the others. Is it possible to have a postive one time and negative the next when Boldenone is in your system. I will leave that to the experts to fathom but what I wont do is condem someone until all the facts have been heard in the approiate forum. Once all the information is out in the public domain , I will then be able to make an informed decision on the rights and wrongs of this case. To do so before then is to do so from a position of ignorance.

Based on all that has been written here your question on how it can be high one week and normal the next is valid. It was mentioned on TV last night that the reading could be as high as 4 times the limit, thats big and you would think not natural. With all the overseas work done to create stimulates (their always ahead of the officials) could there be a NEW formula available which is not supposed to be long lasting. Don't know myself but something doesn't seem right on what we read. This is going to be very interesting to watch.

[barney]

I for one dont know but as i posted in post 11 on this thread there is a thing called a masking agent which disguises the drugs.Whether this is the case or not time will tell but HE has had a positive from 2 places so is guilty as it is a trainers duty to present a horse at the races drug free and this horse on this occasion wasnt.

[Old Frank]

I for one dont know but as i posted in post 11 on this thread there is a thing called a masking agent which disguises the drugs.Whether this is the case or not time will tell but HE has had a positive from 2 places so is guilty as it is a trainers duty to present a horse at the races drug free and this horse on this occasion wasnt.



I'm sorry, your saying 'HE' as you put it, I assume you mean McCarthy now has a 2nd positive? If so, where, or please forgive me upfront for having missed it somewhere?

Has there been an announcement?

[barney]

I'm sorry, your saying 'HE' as you put it, I assume you mean McCarthy now has a 2nd positive? If so, where, or please forgive me upfront for having missed it somewhere?

Has there been an announcement?
What i meant was that the swab has been analysed by 2 labs and both positive so no mistake the horse returned a positive and i repeat it is the trainers responsibility to present a horse to the races drug free.
If he is innocent of charge i hope he gets out of it but as it looks he isnt and must be dealt with.

[Old Frank]

What i meant was that the swab has been analysed by 2 labs and both positive so no mistake the horse returned a positive and i repeat it is the trainers responsibility to present a horse to the races drug free.

If he is innocent of charge i hope he gets out of it but as it looks he isnt and must be dealt with.




No probs, mistook your original comments.

[tiny]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now. The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.

[William]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now. The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.

Thanks for sorting that out Andy. Obviously an error in the swabbing procedure indeed. He must be innocent because he is so good for the game. I will email the stewards and let them know.

[tiny]

No need William I've already sent an email to Sam Nati. But thanks for the offer.

[The Rainmaker]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now. The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.


At a quick glance I thought your name read Andy McCarthy next to your post there.....

I guess the next trainer who's name should be announced shortly with another Boldenone positive was at the mercy of a lab error or poor swabbing procedures as well.

[2minuteman]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. Well,that's fixed that then!
As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. Much,much better that we have rumours of all sorts being spread around the place eh?
This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now.A positive swab is now a witch hunt???
The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.
Any chance of due process here?

[broncobrad]

I am loathe to putting anything on this forum that I cannot back up but on the presence of boldenone in a horse, I found something somewhere on the net last night which for the life of me I can't find tonight but if you would take me at my word it described that the level that horses are tested at gives a very liberal buffer between what is produced naturally against what is introduced to the animal by other means. In other words if the sample exceeds the accepted level there is a high probability that it was not produced naturally.

Or maybe it was just an exceptionally well conformed filly that may have caught Machs eye that night that might have sent his juices into overdrive.

[Danno]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now. The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.


No need to worry Brad, Tiny has sorted it all out, as per above, just as well someones on the ball hey?

[Messenger]

Sorry to come into this so late i've been taking a well earned break in Thailand and trying to resist the temptation to look on the net.

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

One must question HRNSW's decision to make this information public before holding further investigations to determine where the error has been made. This will clearly damage Luke's image and is going to cost him plenty to defend.

I always thought he always brought so much of what was lacking in harness racing and with some clever marketing could have been better used as an ambassador of the sport.

Luke has been subjected to unfair treatment since he moved to NSW and if it was in a workplace you would call it harassment Harness stewards have spent entire days camped at his stables before race meetings. No other trainer in history has had this level of scrutiny placed on them.

So witch hunt yields results Stewards get there man for now. The court of public opinion has the bloke hung already and tall poppy syndrome remains a pretty ugly reflection of humanity.
But could a masking agent hide Boldenone, in which case it could be possible that one time out of 3 the masking agent failed or was incorrectly administered.
Down here in Vic I have formed no opinion on LM but seeing as though you were arguing on the grounds of logic, I thought you might be able to answer whether the above is not a possible scenario

[tiny]

Yes there could be a masking agent.

Yes there could be bunyups in the back yard.

But in this case you have to look at the balance of probablitys and that suggests that there has been some type of error made.

If the rumered second swab for the same thing from the same night turns up. It will be quite obvious that there has been contamination during the collection of the swabs on that night.

[Messenger]

Yes there could be a masking agent.

Yes there could be bunyups in the back yard.

But in this case you have to look at the balance of probablitys and that suggests that there has been some type of error made.

If the rumered second swab for the same thing from the same night turns up. It will be quite obvious that there has been contamination during the collection of the swabs on that night.

MY BAD - you clearly are not arguing on a point of logic after all or else you would not argue that

The existence of Masking Agents in Harness Racing = The chance there is bunyups (bunyips even) in the back yard

[murray green]

But could a masking agent hide Boldenone, in which case it could be possible that one time out of 3 the masking agent failed or was incorrectly administered.
Down here in Vic I have formed no opinion on LM but seeing as though you were arguing on the grounds of logic, I thought you might be able to answer whether the above is not a possible scenario

Hi Kev . When these steroids are used the animals are worked up on them . Their work can be increased well past what a normal animal could acheive making them extremely fit and increasing their red blood cells to the same extent that EPO does . The use is cut out and the horses body tries very quickly to restore the levels to normal . The first few runs are usually mind blowing . While the horse is being worked up , its body stops production of the steroid trying to restore normal levels . once stopped the normal levels are acheived quite quickly but the effects last for a much longer time . After a while , the levels decrease past normal levels because the body hasn't caught up and booster shots are usually administered in smaller doses . This fits with the positive only showing up at Newcastle and not before or after . Performances drop off fairly quickly once the effects slow down and horses usually spelled . Booster shots will keep them up for longer , but you run the risk of being found out . The best chance of finding abusers is by out of race testing horses that are being worked up . eg now would be the perfect time to test 3YOs aimed at the NSW derby . Abuse of these steroids is certainly unhealthy and IMO could be seen as cruelty . 51 wrestlers have died in the past 15 years because of steroid abuse . The levels set by the authorities is fail safe and any that excede these levels are certainly because of administration . The time that these steroids remain performance enhancing far , far excedes the time that they would be detectable .

[Messenger]

Thanks for all that info Murray. I reckon it also makes things a little clearer for me in regard to cycling - the other sport I followed keenly during my lengthy spell away from harness. I remember 20yrs ago reading a story about a very successful trainer in the US who's answer to why he moved on all his stable at 3 (only trained 2yo) - because he did not want to compete against the chemists!

[broncobrad]

BOOM Another positive swab for boldenone, this time Karloo Kix

[bbd]

BOOM Another positive swab for boldenone, this time Karloo Kix

Watch out Brad!

I posted this about an hour ago and they deleted it!! Didn't tell me why - just did.

[broncobrad]

Watch out Brad!

I posted this about an hour ago and they deleted it!! Didn't tell me why - just did.

I am only posting what is on the public record.

[Triple V]

G'day all,

As we all know, a couple of days ago an announcement was made that Luke McCarthy had scored a Boldenone positive...and then somewhat predictably, all Hell broke loose here on this Forum.

Earlier today it came to pass that Barry Lew also has a positive, scored on same night at the same track for the same substance and yet, just as I predicted on the day that the announcement about Luke was made, so far not so much as a peep from those who a couple of days ago rather publicly & en masse sought to damn Luke to Hell for his alleged transgression.

Now I'm not wanting the roof to similarly fall in on Barry in the way it did on Luke, not at all. Far from it. Anything like that would be just as big a disgrace as this very thread has periodically been since it was started by the now banned 'Stonie' aka (fill in multiple ID's here).

Rather what I am endeavouring to highlight here is the absolutely disgraceful, duplicitous nature of the way in which positives for various/respective Trainers are apparently being met by some sections of the Industry here in NSW.

If it's Luke McCarthy, clearly the Peanut Gallery has been lying in wait for him and they're all over him like starving seagulls swooping on a bucket of hot chips, the due process of it all be damned. Now that Barry has also been mentioned in dispatches and..........well, you could hear a pin drop.

Apparently in the Court of Public Opinion....some get hung, some get a pass ?.

Apparently the reaction depends wholly and solely on who you are, how often you're beating your opposition and where you sit on the Premiership Table.

Apparently...it has/there is a HUGE jealousy component to it as well.

Talk about running with the Fox and hunting with the Hounds.

They are both good blokes, they are both excellent Trainers...but obviously it's Luke that is training a big team, a big public stable, he is leading the NSW Premiership by wide open lengths & seemingly because of that and that alone, he has taken/ is taking the majority if not all of the heat from certain sections of the Industry.

To me it just goes to show that such transgressions, be they perceived or actual, be they proven or alleged, are generally being seen through the clearly rather warped prism of whether or not the person who scores it was the one who beat you last time you went to the track, this as opposed to any legal/moral/level playing field implications that it may or may not carry. I wish I could have been on as good a thing at the track. I'd have had the house on it.

As always...Derryn Hinch said it best. Shame. Shame. Shame.


Incidentally, according to the Newcastle results on December 9th, there's no notation.
Apparently Karloo Kix wasn't swabbed???????????????

--------------------------------

[Messenger]

That is a disgusting post in itself VVV. Not that I have crucified LM as you claim some have. I log on and read about 2 paragraphs of your post before thinking how laughable it is. I will go back and read it eventually (although ridiculously long) but I hate to point out that:
1. A lot of us work and follow forums out of work hours
2. It sounded like you have been banning the ones you might expect to hang the next offender (which you seem to be semi-wishing for)
3. How many posters actually got stuck into LM?

[The Rainmaker]

1. Seems alot of posters were banned after having a potshot at McCarthy after his positive swab came to light the other day, or if it was one person under multiple aliases it shoots your theory in the foot that every man and his dog were on McCarthy's hammer.

2. Another poster this afternoon said they made a post about Barry Lew's Boldenone positive only to have it deleted by a moderator.

3. The so called 'Peanut Gallery' have been on the money in recent times in regards to:

* Bennett and Fitzpatrick and co being involved in the swabbing scandal - CORRECT
* Luke McCarthy's results pointing to potential steroid/drug use - CORRECT
* His mate Barry Lew using the same substance - CORRECT

All before public announcements were made. If the 'Peanut Gallery' is the name given to those on the money I'd hate to see what those people would be known as if they were incorrect. Not to mention that you personally knew all those rumours as well, if you didn't believe them what does it make you?

4. Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are both cheats as far as I'm concerned, history shows they both recorded a positive swab to Boldenone.

[Triple V]

That is a disgusting post in itself VVV. Not that I have crucified LM as you claim some have. I log on and read about 2 paragraphs of your post before thinking how laughable it is. I will go back and read it eventually (although ridiculously long) but I hate to point out that:
1. A lot of us work and follow forums out of work hours
[VVV] Accept that.

2. It sounded like you have been banning the ones you might expect to hang the next offender (which you seem to be semi-wishing for)
[VVV] If you think that then you have misunderstood what I am getting at.

3. How many posters actually got stuck into LM?
[VVV] Didn't keep count however there have been and there were, plenty.

Kevin, I accept that the truth is somewhat confronting at times.
The above has apparently proven to have been so for your good self, something which was not my intention.
That's a post that comes straight from the heart. It's not edited, it is not held back, it doesn't infer nor illude.
Disgusting? No, not for mine.
A bit of old fashioned, straight forward honesty around here would go a long way right now, don't you think?





Regards

Jaimie

[tiny]

Now we have confirmation of the second swap to the samething on the same night the case for contamination, mix up at the lab got a whole lot stronger. I still a little disappointed that that both trainers were named publicly before the circumstances of how the contamination accrued have been investigated. Both trainers names have been damaged. I know both trainers personally both take excellent care of there horses and would never use any thing that could damage there horses or there good names.

I also noted that from the Newcastle meeting the only two stallions to win both return positives.

Also watching the Reid sanders interview he seemed to down play Luke's swab saying that it is a natural hormone and the levels are cumlitive. I got the oppinion that Reid knows how this mix up has happined and will be quickly resolved.

[Triple V]

1. Seems alot of posters were banned after having a potshot at McCarthy after his positive swab came to light the other day, or if it was one person under multiple aliases it shoots your theory in the foot that every man and his dog were on McCarthy's hammer.

2. Another poster this afternoon said they made a post about Barry Lew's Boldenone positive only to have it deleted by a moderator.

3. The so called 'Peanut Gallery' have been on the money in recent times in regards to:

* Bennett and Fitzpatrick and co being involved in the swabbing scandal - CORRECT
* Luke McCarthy's results pointing to potential steroid/drug use - CORRECT
* His mate Barry Lew using the same substance - CORRECT

All before public announcements were made. If the 'Peanut Gallery' is the name given to those on the money I'd hate to see what those people would be known as if they were incorrect. Not to mention that you personally knew all those rumours as well, if you didn't believe them what does it make you?

4. Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are both cheats as far as I'm concerned, history shows they both recorded a positive swab to Boldenone.


[VVV] Eric, that is a further example of what I am getting at.
How can you or anybody else so confidently get on here and categorically state that which you have stated above BEFORE either gentleman has been afforded the due process of a Hearing etc?
That is exactly the reason why a dozen or more people were banned. You might think that, you might believe that to be the case BUT until such time as as Hearing is carried out or you can independently prove it to be so, then you can't say what you've said there in Point 4)
Where do you, or for that matter Harnesslink, have to go if these positives are subsequently proven to have been contamination/lab error or whatever? You're buggered and so are they. You just can't say that. The English language is a wonderful thing. Try using it to get your point across without having to resort to attaching a very, very premature 'cheat' tag to these blokes.

[broncobrad]

I am sorry triple, are we part of the peanut gallery you infer? Mate, really, it is a forum and it is a place where opinions are bandied around. Of course it comes as no suprise that Luke receives the brunt of the allegations and the slander. He is the gun and jealousy will always prevail. We live in a tall poppy, knocking down society and if you stick your head up, it is going to get shot at. That is just how it is.

Don't put the forum contributors on trial. We are not the ones that presented horses on the track with a substance in them that exceeds acceptable thresholds. That was Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew. They will get to defend themselves in the proper arena. I do feel for Barry, this is not a stress that I would like to be subjected to, after just losing his Dad. I find the most interesting fact to this point is both animals are entires.

[Messenger]

Regards

Jaimie

Disgusting is maybe a bit strong but I find it disturbing that a mod uses such broad generalizations. After apparently discovering that we have weak individuals using bogus names and rightly banning them and thus covering 90% of the negative posts (which on review I now admit there were more of than I thought) you see fit to lecture/preach to the rest of us. Warning - there is nothing an ex-chalkie hates more than to be scolded :)

[Triple V]

G'day Brad,

You've hit the nail right on the head when you wrote

[Mate, really, it is a forum and it is a place where opinions are bandied around. Of course it comes as no suprise that Luke receives the brunt of the allegations and the slander. He is the gun and jealousy will always prevail. We live in a tall poppy, knocking down society and if you stick your head up, it is going to get shot at. That is just how it is.]

then you went on to say...

[Don't put the forum contributors on trial. We are not the ones that presented horses on the track with a substance in them that exceeds acceptable thresholds. That was Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew. They will get to defend themselves in the proper arena.]

Think about those words for a moment.
'the brunt of allegations and slander' & 'They will get to defend themselves in the proper arena'.

Those are your own words mate. The question follows as to why is it then that either should be subjected to whilst unable to defend themselves against allegations and slander in this Forum, it far from being the proper arena?....that pretty much being one of the points to my intial 'duplicity' post.

[Triple V]

Disgusting is maybe a bit strong but I find it disturbing that a mod uses such broad generalizations. After apparently discovering that we have weak individuals using bogus names and rightly banning them and thus covering 90% of the negative posts (which on review I now admit there were more of than I thought) you see fit to lecture/preach to the rest of us. Warning - there is nothing an ex-chalkie hates more than to be scolded :)

[VVV] Nobody disrepsects the Chalkies. My apologies if you took it to heart. It was from mine, as I said.

[Chariots]

Similar to other threads we have those assuming guilt and cheating prior to the inquiry and others proclaiming contamination and innocence. A deep breath and allowing justice to run its course albeit probably an elongated one would be the best for all.

[broncobrad]

Hi Jamie,

I am not for a second going to defend those that choose to slander in this forum...I have been pretty clear about that ever since I began posting. And I am not going to start now. I am simply stating a fact and that is Luke has received the brunt of allegations both in & out of this forum and it is a gutless way of attacking his credibility. I am not defending that at all. It is just the nature of the beast. The second fact is they will get to defend themselves in the proper arena, what is the problem with that. But what I am a bit peeved about is the terminology of the Peanut Gallery - that I find demeaning.

[Triple V]

Call it gut instinct fellas...but two positives for the same thing on the same night with two different trainers at the one meeting, with neither horse nor any other horse from either stable having previously or subsequently shown anything after having been swabbed either side thereof? That's a pretty big head scratcher. I just don't recall there ever having been a Boldenone positive in Australian Harness Racing. Gai Waterhouse got one with Perfect Poise about 5 or 6 years ago and she picked up a 10k fine. I can't remember any others. Anyone else ? It's also such a crazy drug to select for anyone who is intentionally looking to fly under the radar because it has been around for years and it is just so easily detected. It's as easy as caffeine or an opiate. Would stand out like a set of Dogs agates. Doesn't make any sense.

[Viv Strangman]

G'day all,

As we all know, a couple of days ago an announcement was made that Luke McCarthy had scored a Boldenone positive...and then somewhat predictably, all Hell broke loose here on this Forum.

Earlier today it came to pass that Barry Lew also has a positive, scored on same night at the same track for the same substance and yet, just as I predicted on the day that the announcement about Luke was made, so far not so much as a peep from those who a couple of days ago rather publicly & en masse sought to damn Luke to Hell for his alleged transgression.

Now I'm not wanting the roof to similarly fall in on Barry in the way it did on Luke, not at all. Far from it. Anything like that would be just as big a disgrace as this very thread has periodically been since it was started by the now banned 'Stonie' aka (fill in multiple ID's here).

Rather what I am endeavouring to highlight here is the absolutely disgraceful, duplicitous nature of the way in which positives for various/respective Trainers are apparently being met by some sections of the Industry here in NSW.

If it's Luke McCarthy, clearly the Peanut Gallery has been lying in wait for him and they're all over him like starving seagulls swooping on a bucket of hot chips, the due process of it all be damned. Now that Barry has also been mentioned in dispatches and..........well, you could hear a pin drop.

Apparently in the Court of Public Opinion....some get hung, some get a pass ?.

Apparently the reaction depends wholly and solely on who you are, how often you're beating your opposition and where you sit on the Premiership Table.

Apparently...it has/there is a HUGE jealousy component to it as well.

Talk about running with the Fox and hunting with the Hounds.

They are both good blokes, they are both excellent Trainers...but obviously it's Luke that is training a big team, a big public stable, he is leading the NSW Premiership by wide open lengths & seemingly because of that and that alone, he has taken/ is taking the majority if not all of the heat from certain sections of the Industry.

To me it just goes to show that such transgressions, be they perceived or actual, be they proven or alleged, are generally being seen through the clearly rather warped prism of whether or not the person who scores it was the one who beat you last time you went to the track, this as opposed to any legal/moral/level playing field implications that it may or may not carry. I wish I could have been on as good a thing at the track. I'd have had the house on it.

As always...Derryn Hinch said it best. Shame. Shame. Shame.


Incidentally, according to the Newcastle results on December 9th, there's no notation.
Apparently Karloo Kix wasn't swabbed???????????????

--------------------------------
Couldnt agree more. The mob demanding blood before a hearing is never a good look. Time for people to take a deep breath and let the process take its course.

[Triple V]

The Cavalry rides over the hill. Where have you been Viv? I've been defending the Fort, all by myself. ;)

[Viv Strangman]

The Cavalry rides over the hill. Where have you been Viv? I've been defending the Fort, all by myself. ;)

Work is such a handicap to us poor sods who must do plenty. Hope its better late than never!

[tiny]

Call it gut instinct fellas...but two positives for the same thing on the same night with two different trainers at the one meeting, with neither horse nor any other horse from either stable having previously or subsequently shown anything after having been swabbed either side thereof? That's a pretty big head scratcher. I just don't recall there ever having been a Boldenone positive in Australian Harness Racing. Gai Waterhouse got one with Perfect Poise about 5 or 6 years ago and she picked up a 10k fine. I can't remember any others. Anyone else ? It's also such a crazy drug to select for anyone who is intentionally looking to fly under the radar because it has been around for years and it is just so easily detected. It's as easy as caffeine or an opiate. Would stand out like a set of Dogs aggates. Doesn't make any sense.

Great post VVV. I also got the impression watching the Reid Sander interview that he already knows how this error has been made but they still have to hold the enquirers. Bit of a shame cause it has already caused a lot of damage to two honest trainers names.

[Zyuganov Leis]

Call it gut instinct fellas...but two positives for the same thing on the same night with two different trainers at the one meeting, with neither horse nor any other horse from either stable having previously or subsequently shown anything after having been swabbed either side thereof? That's a pretty big head scratcher. I just don't recall there ever having been a Boldenone positive in Australian Harness Racing. Gai Waterhouse got one with Perfect Poise about 5 or 6 years ago and she picked up a 10k fine. I can't remember any others. Anyone else ? It's also such a crazy drug to select for anyone who is intentionally looking to fly under the radar because it has been around for years and it is just so easily detected. It's as easy as caffeine or an opiate. Would stand out like a set of Dogs aggates. Doesn't make any sense.



This is the part that get's to me also. Both gentlemen (innocent in my eyes until they are allowed their hearing/defence) have never to my memory gone anywhere near a positive swab, yet both go on the same night under similar sets of circumstances (both bulls).

I have met both gentleman in the past at the races only on a polite hello basis so certainly don't speak to them on-going, but speaking to a good friend of mine who does know both and has spoken to Luke over the last few days, he say's he's devastated at the positive and is absolutely adamant that he's done nothing and it's the horse.

Here's a lesson to all. Bulls in Harness Racing are a non-commodity compared to that of the gallops. With our AI availability and our stock so influenced by the American speed, "a cut racehorse is a good racehorse" in my opinion.

Again, until heard and final verdict handed down, both have my support.

[The Rainmaker]

[VVV]
Where do you, or for that matter Harnesslink, have to go if these positives are subsequently proven to have been contamination/lab error or whatever? You're buggered and so are they. You just can't say that. The English language is a wonderful thing. Try using it to get your point across without having to resort to attaching a very, very premature 'cheat' tag to these blokes.

"Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are both cheats as far as I'm concerned, history shows they both recorded a positive swab to Boldenone."

As NZ law would have it, where harnesslink is based and hosted, those expressing views on this site are entitled to the right of freedom of expression and opinion. The "as far as I'm concerned" would indicate thats my opinion, and the next line would indicate a fact "both recorded a positive swab to boldenone" of which I based my opinion on. A quick view of harnesslink and harness.org.au verifies that. So I think harnesslink and myself are both good on that count.

I remember you saying a while back that Peter Morris Snr is a nice bloke, that's your opinion, but mine is that he is a drug cheat, which is proven. Above you say Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are nice blokes, again your opinion, but a search of the internet says they both have positive swabs. That is where my opinion was formed.

Until such time that Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are cleared, they have positive swabs according to HRNSW and the media, unfortunate for them but thats the way it works, so my opinion is valid.

[Triple V]

"Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are both cheats as far as I'm concerned, history shows they both recorded a positive swab to Boldenone."

As NZ law would have it, where harnesslink is based and hosted, those expressing views on this site are entitled to the right of freedom of expression and opinion. The "as far as I'm concerned" would indicate thats my opinion, and the next line would indicate a fact "both recorded a positive swab to boldenone" of which I based my opinion on. A quick view of harnesslink and harness.org.au verifies that. So I think harnesslink and myself are both good on that count.

I remember you saying a while back that Peter Morris Snr is a nice bloke, that's your opinion, but mine is that he is a drug cheat, which is proven. Above you say Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are nice blokes, again your opinion, but a search of the internet says they both have positive swabs. That is where my opinion was formed.

Until such time that Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are cleared, they have positive swabs according to HRNSW and the media, unfortunate for them but thats the way it works, so my opinion is valid.


[VVV] See, now there you go playing fast and rather loose with the facts once again Eric.
I most certainly did say that Peter is a nice bloke.
He is a nice bloke. I stand by that.
In all the time I've known him he has always been a pleasant, friendly fella.
I did however go on to say that, like so many other such people that I had met, I found it hard to reconcile the Peter that I knew as a nice bloke with the one who has recorded repeat TCO2 offences & so on...which you conveniently left out or forgot to mention.

Your view of the world in general in terms of legal matters is apparently one where there is the presumption of guilt until one is proven innocent...which as luck would have it for both Luke & Barry, is completely at odds with the Judicial system that this country works on. Fancy that eh? Bugger. The Law has gone & stuffed up a perfectly good Lynching Party. :p

[teecee]

I am only posting what is on the public record.
You should be posting what is the public record...i.e. your source official article.
Please read and follow the forum rules as outlined on the Australian Harness Forum Home page.
If you are not able to supply a source within your post it will be regarded as not official but another case of innuendo. Then deleted.

[The Rainmaker]

[VVV] See, now there you go playing fast and rather loose with the facts once again Eric.
I most certainly did say that Peter is a nice bloke.
He is a nice bloke. I stand by that.
In all the time I've known him he has always been a pleasant, friendly fella.
I did however go on to say that, like so many other such people that I had met, I found it hard to reconcile the Peter that I knew as a nice bloke with the one who has recorded repeat TCO2 offences & so on...which you conveniently left out or forgot to mention.

Your view of the world in general in terms of legal matters is apparently one where there is the presumption of guilt until one is proven innocent...which as luck would have it for both Luke & Barry, is completely at odds with the Judicial system that this country works on. Fancy that eh? Bugger. The Law has gone & stuffed up a perfectly good Lynching Party. :p

Whichever way you want to look at it, both horses under the care of these two trainers returned positive swabs, which was verified by two labratories. At this stage they are positive swabs according to media releases from HRNSW, they came out with the statement no-one else. And if it turns out they were contaminated and both trainers are not guilty well thats HRNSW's problem for jumping the gun and dragging their names through the mud.

P.S That Cam Fitzpatrick is a lovely bloke too, wheres he now? You're a great judge of character :cool:

[teecee]

I find it rather ironic that someone can take a rather and ill informed view of NZ laws claiming protection of their opinion under the law through the right of freedom of expression and opinion. Views expressed on this forum are NOT protected under NZ law when they are without base or foundation. This is why when claims are made on this forum without factual backup they will be deleted.

NZ Law does however strongly protect the accused until the law, not the court of public opinion, has found their case proven.
NZ law says that these two accused persons are innocent until their opportunity to defend has been exhausted.
Your opinion is at odds with this principle and as it is not based on proven fact your opinion is tenuous at best...Not VALID.

With that in mind you are advised your post 109 is "close to the edge" in labelling them CHEATS.

[The Rainmaker]

I find it rather ironic that someone can take a rather and ill informed view of NZ laws claiming protection of their opinion under the law through the right of freedom of expression and opinion. Views expressed on this forum are NOT protected under NZ law when they are without base or foundation. This is why when claims are made on this forum without factual backup they will be deleted.

NZ Law does however strongly protect the accused until the law, not the court of public opinion, has found their case proven.
NZ law says that these two accused persons are innocent until their opportunity to defend has been exhausted.
Your opinion is at odds with this principle and as it is not based on proven fact your opinion is tenuous at best...Not VALID.

With that in mind you are advised your post 109 is "close to the edge" in labelling them CHEATS.

I refer you to the following articles:

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=95717

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=95685

Both written by your very own journalist Dale Walker. Both indicate said trainers have obtained positive swabs.

Without such articles posted on harnesslink I would have nothing to base my expression of opinion on. If you want to delete my post that's fine, however your articles are the basis of where I formed my views so you may want to delete them as well.

[Maorisidol]

Whichever way you want to look at it, both horses under the care of these two trainers returned positive swabs, which was verified by two labratories. At this stage they are positive swabs according to media releases from HRNSW, they came out with the statement no-one else. And if it turns out they were contaminated and both trainers are not guilty well thats HRNSW's problem for jumping the gun and dragging their names through the mud.

P.S That Cam Fitzpatrick is a lovely bloke too, wheres he now? You're a great judge of character :cool:

I'm with u here VVV,

Eric, the 2 guys have been charged but essentially not found guilty and convicted yet, and u are happy to call them cheats...

[teecee]

Thanks for you article links. I can't find the term or inference CHEAT in either article in reference to either trainer.
Neither article states that charges have been laid, hearings held, nor convictions and penalties entered.
For you to claim protection by NZ law for your opinion as stated and published on the forum would IMO be far from safe.

[broncobrad]

You should be posting what is the public record...i.e. your source official article.
Please read and follow the forum rules as outlined on the Australian Harness Forum Home page.
If you are not able to supply a source within your post it will be regarded as not official but another case of innuendo. Then deleted.

Hi Teecee,

If I have erred in not posting the source I humbly apologise, but I can assure you I have no intention of posting unfounded or unconfirmed facts. Its not my go.
It was posted on the front of Harnesslink from the Newsroom at 2:27Pm on 15/02/2012 for all to see. Would have posted earlier but had to play indoor soccer.

[The Rainmaker]

Thanks for you article links. I can't find the term or inference CHEAT in either article in reference to either trainer.
Neither article states that charges have been laid, hearings held, nor convictions and penalties entered.
For you to claim protection by NZ law for your opinion as stated and published on the forum would IMO be far from safe.

I read the headings of both articles as 'Positive Swab for Luke McCarthy' and 'Positive Swab for Barry Lew', on the harnesslink top stories feed. Nowhere in those headings did I read impending positive or potential positive. If in fact neither trainer have a positive, both articles prove to be incorrect, and having based my opinion on said articles from a trustworthy source, I would suggest harnesslink have more to answer for incorrect reporting that I do for expressing a view on which those headings were the basis.


P.S Thanks for the heads up Adam.

[teecee]

1. Seems alot of posters were banned after having a potshot at McCarthy after his positive swab came to light the other day, or if it was one person under multiple aliases it shoots your theory in the foot that every man and his dog were on McCarthy's hammer.

The number of members posting to this issue in a negative manner necessitating moderator intervention supports this figurative view.

Four persons were banned with regards to what was posted on here two days ago.
I banned all of them.
None of them was banned for taking potshots at McCarthy. All had ppreviously posted sensible and thoughtful posts on the issue.
All were banned for offensive language unrelated to the issue for discussion and making insulting remarks when replying to the views of other members whose views they disagreed with.
On further examination it was found that these persons were aliases for one or two persons.

2. Another poster this afternoon said they made a post about Barry Lew's Boldenone positive only to have it deleted by a moderator.

I also did that. The post did not offer any form of ratification and as such I judged to be hearsay.
If you have read the rules it says you need to back up with evidence what you write in a post WITHIN THAT POST.

3. The so called 'Peanut Gallery' have been on the money in recent times in regards to:

* Bennett and Fitzpatrick and co being involved in the swabbing scandal - CORRECT
* Luke McCarthy's results pointing to potential steroid/drug use - CORRECT
* His mate Barry Lew using the same substance - CORRECT

All before public announcements were made. If the 'Peanut Gallery' is the name given to those on the money I'd hate to see what those people would be known as if they were incorrect. Not to mention that you personally knew all those rumours as well, if you didn't believe them what does it make you?

4. Luke McCarthy and Barry Lew are both cheats as far as I'm concerned, history shows they both recorded a positive swab to Boldenone.

Members are free to make whatever speculations they like elsewhere at risk of legal sanction.
To make them here you need to be able to back it up as you say/write it.
Being right about it after the event does not protect anybody for what they said or wrote prior.

[Danno]

Members are free to make whatever speculations they like elsewhere at risk of legal sanction.
To make them here you need to be able to back it up as you say/write it.
Being right about it after the event does not protect anybody for what they said or wrote prior.

So, forgive me if I'm wrong does that mean when triple says our game's administrators should get their heads out of their arses ( see yearling sales threrad) should he include digital images of people with their heads up their arse? or would a "stat dec" suffice? or alternatively, can we take triples word for it because he's a moderator?

Just trying to clear up the rules TC

Cheers,
Dan

[NormanS]

I watched and listened to the Reid Sanders interview on Trots TV, It was the part where he said " like the Police and RBT, anytime anywhere" (or words to that effect) and i was reminded via the TV shows RBT about how many False Positives to all sorts of things come up on their "roadside drug tests". So I googled "is it possible to get a false positive to boldenone ?" The answer Yes. Granted the 1st site http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=113293891&page=1 - is about body building but yes there are supplements that contain ADT (androsta-1,4,6-triene-3,17-dione) which can give a false positive to Boldenone.
and :"The subject submitted a sample that was clear of any banned substances. After taking ATD for 2 weeks, the subject resubmitted a urine sample. This time, the sample came back positive for metabolites of the anabolic steroid boldenone (1,4-androstadiene-3-one,17b-ol). (The metabolites were 5beta-androst-1-en-17beta-ol-3-one and 5beta-androst-1-en-3beta-ol-17-one)" from http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/54648-atd-postive-drug.html
Now both LM and BL are world class trainers. I'm not. One thing i do know is i used supplements and "treated" within the boundaries of the rules, so i would assume that these guys do as well.
So is it possible for these to be False Positives based on both horses being stallions? I would now have to answer yes, possible.
Does this mean im changing my opinion? yep means im going back to my spot on the fence to wait for the result of the enquiry.
Also like i wrote earlier - need to read everything. Am taking my own advice.

[teecee]

What does he need to produce images of.
He says they should get their heads out....... making a suggestion
He does not say they have their heads in......they are in a pose..
to suggest an actioneven inappropriate to the event is not the same as stating a "Fact" without concrete evidence to back up the claim.
Consideration of his view in this case because he is a moderator is not relevant.

[Messenger]

You should be posting what is the public record...i.e. your source official article.
Please read and follow the forum rules as outlined on the Australian Harness Forum Home page.
If you are not able to supply a source within your post it will be regarded as not official but another case of innuendo. Then deleted.

Posting your source is a good idea as that means Mods do not have to have encyclopedic knowledge of everything that is on the record

BUT if you are referring to the Sticky that outlines forum rules, there is no such instruction only:

"You may discuss any publicly available information from reputable sources. These include but aren't limited to: Press releases put out by HRNSW (or other state organisations), news posted by HR Australia, or Harnesslink etc."

Why is it that this forum does not Identify its Mods - with everybody having to be up front on their ID, it seems strange that there is not a MODERATOR label under the names of all those who are enforcing the rules. When I first read what I have quoted from teecee, I thought this poster must be delusional expecting academic essays :(

[admin]

Originally Posted by broncobrad
BOOM Another positive swab for boldenone, this time Karloo Kix


Watch out Brad!

I posted this about an hour ago and they deleted it!! Didn't tell me why - just did.

Teecee already mentioned this, but just to make it clear... Posting that is fine but please include a link to a source in your post. It's a lot of work for the mods keeping everything civil and legal, so we'd prefer not to go hunting on the internet to find it and confirm as well.

[NormanS]

Call it gut instinct fellas...but two positives for the same thing on the same night with two different trainers at the one meeting, with neither horse nor any other horse from either stable having previously or subsequently shown anything after having been swabbed either side thereof? That's a pretty big head scratcher... Doesn't make any sense.

I know this following quote is from mma athlete who also tested positive to boldenone, but i think it fits:
http://www.fightmagazine.com/mma-magazine/mma-article.asp?aid=358&issid=25
"Boldenone, which is usually reserved for veterinary care on horses, has a very long half-life, meaning it can reportedly linger in the body for almost a year and a half after being used, and for at least a few months following even a small dosage. But the fact that Silva’s second test came back negative—following his immediate stoppage of ingesting Novedex— more or less spelled out what both Silva and his manager had asserted: Silva could not have taken Boldenone and tested negative mere weeks after having tested positive"
Do we need to look at the supplements that we are feeding?

[Danno]

So, forgive me if I'm wrong does that mean when triple says our game's administrators should get their heads out of their arses ( see yearling sales threrad) should he include digital images of people with their heads up their arse? or would a "stat dec" suffice? or alternatively, can we take triples word for it because he's a moderator?

Just trying to clear up the rules TC

Cheers,
Dan





What does he need to produce images of.
He says they should get their heads out....... making a suggestion
He does not say they have their heads in......they are in a pose..
to suggest an actioneven inappropriate to the event is not the same as stating a "Fact" without concrete evidence to back up the claim.
Consideration of his view in this case because he is a moderator is not relevant.



How many Breeders have to be sent to the wall before you get your heads out of your arses????????????

So you reckon this is OK TC? I'll hold you to that, in the line of respectfulness.

This site is moderated by people who should get their heads out of their arses if you think the above is a fair go.

Dan

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Messenger;17262]Posting your source is a good idea as that means Mods do not have to have encyclopedic knowledge of everything that is on the record

BUT if you are referring to the Sticky that outlines forum rules, there is no such instruction only:



"You may discuss any publicly available information from reputable sources. These include but aren't limited to: Press releases put out by HRNSW (or other state organisations), news posted by HR Australia, or Harnesslink etc."

Paragraph 2 of same sticky says ..'in part'...

you need to be prepared to back your statements up with proof within that same post. If you do not you can be taken to court, or we (Harnesslink) can be; and we can be shut down.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Danno;17266]Dan




How many Breeders have to be sent to the wall before you get your heads out of your arses????????????

Dan..
The quote that you pose to me here I do not consider OK. It is not language I would choose to use but were I to delete all that I disagree with in the language stakes here, there would be very little left.
It is however not the same as the statement or scenario you previously posed to which I replied and for you to link the two and draw an opinion of my view is in my view disingenuous. Your closing comment is of similar ilk to the one you complain of.
The powers that be can if they so desire and feel agrieved act on Jaimies comment just as the moderators as a group could consider appropriate action against you for your like comment.

[Messenger]

[QUOTE=Messenger;17262]Posting your source is a good idea as that means Mods do not have to have encyclopedic knowledge of everything that is on the record

BUT if you are referring to the Sticky that outlines forum rules, there is no such instruction only:


"You may discuss any publicly available information from reputable sources. These include but aren't limited to: Press releases put out by HRNSW (or other state organisations), news posted by HR Australia, or Harnesslink etc."

Paragraph 2 of same sticky says ..'in part'...

you need to be prepared to back your statements up with proof within that same post. If you do not you can be taken to court, or we (Harnesslink) can be; and we can be shut down.

oops I never get as far as the 2nd paragraph - that is why I am reading a forum not books :)

ps And what was the answer on why I our Mods are not clearly identified?

[broncobrad]

Originally Posted by broncobrad
BOOM Another positive swab for boldenone, this time Karloo Kix



Teecee already mentioned this, but just to make it clear... Posting that is fine but please include a link to a source in your post. It's a lot of work for the mods keeping everything civil and legal, so we'd prefer not to go hunting on the internet to find it and confirm as well.

Thanks Jules, I've got it now.

Dan, chill a bit and let it go, no point in a ban for no good reason.

Norman, thanks for all the enlightening info tonight.

[admin]

[QUOTE=teecee;17267]
oops I never get as far as the 2nd paragraph - that is why I am reading a forum not books :)

ps And what was the answer on why I our Mods are not clearly identified?

I've been meaning to get around to this, will have something up about that soon. Not everything's perfect and we never claimed it was. We're doing our best, for example both TC and myself are in NZ, it's currently past 1am and we are answering your questions.

[Greg Hando]

On face value as 2 colt's tested pos on the same night and not either side make me suspicious of the test finding's so far.

[The Form Student]

What does he need to produce images of.
He says they should get their heads out....... making a suggestion
He does not say they have their heads in......they are in a pose..
to suggest an actioneven inappropriate to the event is not the same as stating a "Fact" without concrete evidence to back up the claim.
Consideration of his view in this case because he is a moderator is not relevant.

How can you say that "He says they should get their heads out......." is making a suggestion? He must believe they have them up there in the first place, whether that be factually or rhetorically! Your play on words is only a vehicle to direct criticism away when it suits! Nobody has made slanderous comments, they may be considered derogatory, that's all. Their opinion is being expressed, and as you say you might not like it, but really all you should do is gives your in return without playing the power game! The forum exists to hear what others have to say, yes we not all Rhode Scholars or QC's, so you are taking the correct denunciations too far!!!

What is happening here is that there is a wide spectrum of views about this one topic, some are taking the hard line, that is if a positive swab is announced, therefore guilt has been proven. There is the other view that they are innocent until proven guilty. Most would have an in between view. A mix-up with the swabs would be a terrible result.

Jamie, mentioned the "Colonel" (his suggestion not mine) knows more than he is able mention at present. Innuendo does not help matters either. What this does is fuel the various opinions that are being "spilled" on this forum. You have criticised some of the posters as not providing "factual" statements, but really all they are doing is expressing what they feel and think about the information provided to date. They are angry, because this great sport is being denigrated to it's core. They don't want that, a level playing field is what everyone wants. Every additional bit of bad publicity is hurting everyone, whether eventually found to be true or otherwise. Mud sticks, it is time to draw a line in the sand!

Yes, they should have their day in court, and yes the story will unfold to it's conclusion, and yes everybody is entitled to their opinion! There are also a lot of people sitting on the fence, not sure what to think or feel, just waiting for the next episode!

You don't have to be so heavy handed! Keep control.....but in a nice way!!!

[broncobrad]

Hey Greg, these are the scenarios I have come up with:-

1/ The horses have come into contact with a food product/feed additive. Possible
2/ The entires are naturally producing higher levels of boldenone greater than the allowable threshold. Almost impossible.
3/ The testing of the horses is flawed when collecting samples. Unlikely.
4/ The samples have somehow been contaminated. Likely
5/ The testing equipment is faulty. Highly likely.
6/ The animals have been administered boldenone. Unpalatable

Any other ideas

[The Form Student]

Yes, They are both entered in the Mr Australia Body Building Titles!!!!!

[The Form Student]

Just heard, they are both late acceptors for the Lightning Stakes on saturday, to take on Black Caviar.

[teecee]

How can you say that "He says they should get their heads out......." is making a suggestion? He must believe they have them up there in the first place, whether that be factually or rhetorically! Your play on words is only a vehicle to direct criticism away when it suits!
I am not here to make decisions about what the writer believes nor for that matter are you. I am only interested in what he writes here.

Nobody has made slanderous comments, they may be considered derogatory, that's all.
There is no legal difference in the two terms you choose. A derogatory statement is slanderous and sanctionable under the law.

Their opinion is being expressed, and as you say you might not like it, but really all you should do is gives your in return without playing the power game! The forum exists to hear what others have to say, yes we not all Rhode Scholars or QC's, so you are taking the correct denunciations too far!!!
This is a public forum owned by a private company. It is my position to ensure that the views expressed on here are not legally sanctionable nor endanger the forum, its members nor the company who own it Simply put, yes they are allowed to express a view but not in a way which is offensive to nor denigrating the character of other persons.

What is happening here is that there is a wide spectrum of views about this one topic, some are taking the hard line, that is if a positive swab is announced, therefore guilt has been proven. There is the other view that they are innocent until proven guilty. Most would have an in between view. A mix-up with the swabs would be a terrible result.

Jamie, mentioned the "Colonel" (his suggestion not mine) knows more than he is able mention at present. Innuendo does not help matters either. What this does is fuel the various opinions that are being "spilled" on this forum. You have criticised some of the posters as not providing "factual" statements, but really all they are doing is expressing what they feel and think about the information provided to date. They are angry, because this great sport is being denigrated to it's core. They don't want that, a level playing field is what everyone wants. Every additional bit of bad publicity is hurting everyone, whether eventually found to be true or otherwise. Mud sticks, it is time to draw a line in the sand!

Yes, they should have their day in court, and yes the story will unfold to it's conclusion, and yes everybody is entitled to their opinion! There are also a lot of people sitting on the fence, not sure what to think or feel, just waiting for the next episode!

You don't have to be so heavy handed! Keep control.....but in a nice way!!!
The remainder of this post has no relevance to my postwhich you have chosen to comment against.

[racefair]

[QUOTE=Triple V;17218]G'day all,

As we all know, a couple of days ago an announcement was made that Luke McCarthy had scored a Boldenone positive...and then somewhat predictably, all Hell broke loose here on this Forum.

Earlier today it came to pass that Barry Lew also has a positive, scored on same night at the same track for the same substance and yet, just as I predicted on the day that the announcement about Luke was made, so far not so much as a peep from those who a couple of days ago rather publicly & en masse sought to damn Luke to Hell for his alleged transgression.

Now I'm not wanting the roof to similarly fall in on Barry in the way it did on Luke, not at all. Far from it. Anything like that would be just as big a disgrace as this very thread has periodically been since it was started by the now banned 'Stonie' aka (fill in multiple ID's here).

Rather what I am endeavouring to highlight here is the absolutely disgraceful, duplicitous nature of the way in which positives for various/respective Trainers are apparently being met by some sections of the Industry here in NSW.

If it's Luke McCarthy, clearly the Peanut Gallery has been lying in wait for him and they're all over him like starving seagulls swooping on a bucket of hot chips, the due process of it all be damned. Now that Barry has also been mentioned in dispatches and..........well, you could hear a pin drop.

Apparently in the Court of Public Opinion....some get hung, some get a pass ?.

Apparently the reaction depends wholly and solely on who you are, how often you're beating your opposition and where you sit on the Premiership Table.

Apparently...it has/there is a HUGE jealousy component to it as well.

SCALE & COMPLEXITY
Hi Jamie, I'm unsure why you don't understand the mixed reaction. LM is winning around 60% of the races that he enters. So any trainer has less than 50% chance of winning a race when they see LM as trainer in their race. Now that's no reason to be jealous or upset, however LM couples this with extraordinary improvements in record time. This radical improvement has a lot thinking that it's unnatural and has to be due to the use of performance enhancing drugs, whether they be legal, illegal or undetectable. The crowd has gone crazy because the positive for LM on Boldenene proves to them that he's treating his horses and in a way or form that is beating the system. Barry Lew doesn't win as many races and his wins aren't in the same extraordinary fashion.
People are emotional for a few reasons; they have been slandered on this forum and elsewhere as jealous and poor trainers with names like peanut gallery and this positive would seem to open the door on confirming their thoughts around the reasons why LM gets horses to fly.

[David Summers]

[QUOTE=Messenger;17267] And what was the answer on why I our Mods are not clearly identified?

It's hardly a secret. Make sure you are logged on , then click on the Quick Links dropdown at the top of the page and select View Forum Leaders.

[Triple V]

So, forgive me if I'm wrong does that mean when triple says our game's administrators should get their heads out of their arses ( see yearling sales threrad) should he include digital images of people with their heads up their arse? or would a "stat dec" suffice? or alternatively, can we take triples word for it because he's a moderator?

Just trying to clear up the rules TC

Cheers,
Dan

[VVV] G'day Dan,

That's a fair question.
The fact is that you, I and everyone else is free to bag the Hell out of the administration of Harness Racing in this or any other Country in the same way as we can line up on Federal Labor, the Australian Soccer Federation, Coal Seam Gass Miners etc etc etc. I've bagged the Hell out of the JCA in NZ for example.
In that fashion no one person is named/singled out/ identified and so no one person can be deemed as having been defamed. In the same fashion you also cannot defame a Company nor someone who is now dead. (Harold Holt was a Russian Spy etc etc.) Here's a rather helpful link. I like reading such things anyway. Hope it's of interest.

http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html#defpubl

[Triple V]

Yes, They are both entered in the Mr Australia Body Building Titles!!!!!

[VVV] Completely off topic but one of my Mum's cousins is/was married to a bloke by the name of Paul Graham. He was one of the first Mr. Universe types here in Oz. As a kid, to me he looked like a Mountain. Years later I saw him and once he'd stopped training he faded away to just another bloke in the street.

[The Form Student]

[VVV] Completely off topic but one of my Mum's cousins is/was married to a bloke by the name of Paul Graham. He was one of the first Mr. Universe types here in Oz. As a kid, to me he looked like a Mountain. Years later I saw him and once he'd stopped training he faded away to just another bloke in the street.

Triple V, I remember Paul Graham, he was massively built, he was on a skit on the Paul Hogan show years back when either Hoges or Strop were checking his girlfriend out on the beach, when he approched them with his muscular physique and was going to belt him, one of them kicked sand in his eyes, and that was the end of him!

I know it is off topic, but just a bit of humour, I keep smiling thinking of that skit! Just trying to make a few jokes about the current situation!

[Triple V]

Jamie, mentioned the "Colonel" (his suggestion not mine) knows more than he is able mention at present.

[VVV] The Colonel? Sorry, I'm just not with you there Steve. What are you referring to? Where did I say that?

[Triple V]

Triple V, I remember Paul Graham, he was massively built, he was on a skit on the Paul Hogan show years back when either Hoges or Strop were checking his girlfriend out on the beach, when he approched them with his muscular physique and was going to belt him, one of them kicked sand in his eyes, and that was the end of him!

I know it is off topic, but just a bit of humour, I keep smiling thinking of that skit! Just trying to make a few jokes about the current situation!

[VVV] Yeh, it's needed right now. If nothing else everyone getting so fired up at least proves there's still a fair bit of love out there for the sport, even if we're often coming at it from very different angles. It would be far worse if nobody said anything because that means nobody gives a bugger.
You know what Steve? Old mate earlier referred to wasn't the nicest fella around. He used to get around all dolled up in a red sports car & living the high life while leaving his wife and kids back at home in the real world. As I recall he had an absolutely HUGE ego. I remember him wearing flares. :D:D:D

[The Form Student]

[VVV] Yeh, it's needed right now. If nothing else everyone getting so fired up at least proves there's still a fair bit of love out there for the sport, even if we're often coming at it from very different angles. It would be far worse if nobody said anything because that means nobody gives a bugger.
You know what Steve? Old mate earlier referred to wasn't the nicest fella around. He used to get around all dolled up in a red sports car & living the high life while leaving his wife and kids back at home in the real world. As I recall he had an absolutely HUGE ego. I remember him wearing flares. :D:D:D

Hey Triple, I found the Paul Graham skit on youtube, check it out for a laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are a lot of familiar faces in this clip!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2e9nIdJdvY

[Triple V]

I think he had his hair dyed there. :p I remember it as being lighter than that.

[The Form Student]

I think it is time to get back on track with the theme of this thread!

My thought is that it is too coincidental, that 2 swabs on the same night at the same track, by the only 2 stallions that were swabbed come back with a positive. There have been no positives reported to Boldenone either prior to or post Newcastle to date (that I am aware of). So the obvious conclusion is that something has affected the swabs taken, their equipment has been faulty or re-calibrated etc. Or there is some other reason, some have suggested masking agents etc. What we don't know is the concentration levels of each swab, except that they are over the magic 15 micrograms per litre threshold in urine samples. Why is it that once the urine sample irregularities were known, that immediatley blood samples were not taken, as stated in the 'Colonels" interviews on trotstv recently, that blood samples were more accurate than urine. The other point is that comments from research from other contributors have said that Boldenone stays in the system for months.
The stance taken by HRNSW stewards in such matters has been that the licenced trainer of the horse is required to present the horse drug frree to the races. Look at what happened to David Waite with his Morphine positive, they found purple poppy flowers on his property that produced the Morphine. He got off with a caution!!
'Mr Waite was however cautioned that he must take all reasonable measures in the future to ensure that his horses cannot be contaminated."

Where does this leave us??????????????

[teecee]

This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between.

This statement has had me thinking since I first read it. It took me back to something I read previously somewhere. I am pretty sure it came up during the BLUE MAGIC saga some years ago. Whilst it was about NZ somebody may be able to confirm or deny whether it also applies in Australia. The way some people talk about the costs of integrity in NSW and don't want any of their new found wealth spent on this issue of corruption, I fear it probably does apply there at least.
For reasons of cost, (and sample analysis is apparently not cheap), samples taken from horses for post race analysis are not subject to analysis across the whole spectrum of prohibited substances. In other words samples taken at a particular meeting are tested for a selection of drugs..i.e. 10 -12 different drugs from the list.
Samples taken from another day are tested for other drugs from the list.
With that in mind the possibility exists that Boldenone was selected for testing samples from Newcastle Cup meet but was not selected for testing at the horses prior or subsequent starts. This may not be the end of that though.
Again I am unsure what the procedure is in Australia but in NZ a positive swab will trigger a retrospective retest of samples from that particular horse.

[Mister JayKO]

Slightly off topic ,but as this is my last post I'll leave you all with some thoughts to consider.

This is my last post because I'm leaving / left the industry for good. I have been a participant in many forms for over 20 years, but at the moment the sport is at the crossroads, it's financial draining and no longer providing the enjoyment it needs to in order to balance the ledger.

On the face of it, this appears to be in the "false positive" caetgory and a few seem to have jumped the gun. Having said that and having lived thru the "Gleeson Era" in Sydney and several other periods of domination by training groups in other states, I can understand the suspicion that some people have regarding some key players at the moment.

Looking across the seas to the ongoing Lou Pena saga in the US you don't have to be Einsteeen to connect the dots.

I have always been of the innocent until proven guilty mode, but over time and experience, that view is changing. Certainly training methods can help but when you see horses that you know jump out of the ground when switching camps then see them returned in a heap once they have finished with them you more than question the methods being employed.

Chemists have always been more than a step ahead and whether it's EPO, ITTP, Blue Magic, TC02 or whatever as soon as it can be detectable you can be sure that there is something else out there.

So in the main, harness racing is now almost totally gambling focussed and that's a shame. For those without the passion for the sport, it's viewed in a very negative light and whilst I acknowledge the need for everything to follow due process, the ongoing delay will continue to kill the sport off on a slow basis.

Good luck to everyone continuing on and I hope for your sake that the slow decline can be averted.

[p plater]

Teecee you could be closer to the mark than you think, at last years Inters in Auckland, only test for DMSO was on final night, you will recall they called for retesting on heats later.
More money equals more tests, the fact that a positive for Boldenone has not been seen for ages could mean no tests have been done for it for a long time. Old timers tell me it has been around for years. As has Arsenic which got a result recently. Is it back to the future!!!!!!!!!!!

[geoffkel]

assuming that they will be found guilty. Will it be a monetary fine like Gai got??? I am guessing not.

[tiny]

Teecee I agree your theroy is plausible. But with the length of time that boldenone stays in the system I imagine a swab sample could still be taken today to prove this theroy right or wrong. Also it is possible that stewards have kept samples from this horse despite being cleared. If your idea is correct these samples should also be retested.

For me I still think theres been some type of error in the equipment at the lab.

I still think it was strange for hrnsw the make this public damaging both trainers names before undertaking more investigations into what is without dought very strange.

The fact to that the rumers are spot on is even sadder and proves nothing is private at HRNSW and the organization is about as watertight as a piece of fly screen and that stinks.

[tiny]

Gai got fined ten grand but her defense case cost at least twice that.

[Greg Hando]

[VVV] Completely off topic but one of my Mum's cousins is/was married to a bloke by the name of Paul Graham. He was one of the first Mr. Universe types here in Oz. As a kid, to me he looked like a Mountain. Years later I saw him and once he'd stopped training he faded away to just another bloke in the street.
Small world I used to train with Paul regularly at his gym would that be carol you are mentioning and yes he was a mountain of a man but not in height .

[eliteblood]

Teecee I agree your theroy is plausible. But with the length of time that boldenone stays in the system I imagine a swab sample could still be taken today to prove this theroy right or wrong. Also it is possible that stewards have kept samples from this horse despite being cleared. If your idea is correct these samples should also be retested.

For me I still think theres been some type of error in the equipment at the lab.

I still think it was strange for hrnsw the make this public damaging both trainers names before undertaking more investigations into what is without dought very strange.

The fact to that the rumers are spot on is even sadder and proves nothing is private at HRNSW and the organization is about as watertight as a piece of fly screen and that stinks.


Andy, I think you will fin that the A and B samples were tested at different labs. That makes it extremely unlikely that there is a lab equipment error involved.

[p plater]

I think you will find the B sample and Control were tested in Hong Kong, which will make it difficult for the contamination argument. as 2 Labs used. The only other possibility for contamination is at the point of taking the sample but a clear Control is a great worry there.
The stallion reason could be some reason but you would think Mr. Feelgood would be a contender there.

[Messenger]

It's hardly a secret. Make sure you are logged on , then click on the Quick Links dropdown at the top of the page and select View Forum Leaders.




So are you saying that on this forum - unusual for its real ID requirement, that you think unlike any other forum, our mods should not have some identifier in their ID so that readers new or first time - know that they are a mod?

Forget any ingrained desire to brown nose - simply answer the above question

[barney]

I think you will find the B sample and Control were tested in Hong Kong, which will make it difficult for the contamination argument. as 2 Labs used. The only other possibility for contamination is at the point of taking the sample but a clear Control is a great worry there.
The stallion reason could be some reason but you would think Mr. Feelgood would be a contender there.

I thought the same Tested in 2 different labs.I for one dont know if guilty or not but does have a positive swab so at this stage is until HE proves they are false
As for the other trainer i have never heard of him as i avoid Nsw harness because of a few reasons but one is the domination of Luke and what i have been told.

[Triple V]

SCALE & COMPLEXITY

Hi Jamie, I'm unsure why you don't understand the mixed reaction.

[VVV] You have me wrong there Jett. I completely understand the mixed reaction.
I am just trying to point out the (very,very predictable) incredible hypocrisy of it from the perspective of those who have made disparaging remarks about Luke (on the basis of him getting a positive) were clearly waiting in the wings for him to sneeze so they could all play pile on (eg. my friend's comment re: they'd get Luke for a Panadol if they could)...whilst not lining up and doing the same about Barry getting one... because he was of course not on their radar.
The fact is, both guys on the face of it have 1, they each have a single positive BUT Luke is the one who cops all the moral outrage, the pre-judgement and slanderous commentary and all that on the basis that he simply wins more races...and because of that, in response there are those around who apparently feel that his positive carries more weight in terms of the amount of public derision it deserves. END

LM is winning around 60% of the races that he enters. So any trainer has less than 50% chance of winning a race when they see LM as trainer in their race. Now that's no reason to be jealous or upset, however LM couples this with extraordinary improvements in record time. This radical improvement has a lot thinking that it's unnatural and has to be due to the use of performance enhancing drugs, whether they be legal, illegal or undetectable. The crowd has gone crazy because the positive for LM on Boldenene proves to them that he's treating his horses and in a way or form that is beating the system.

[VVV] There's that bit about Panadol from my mate again. The negative Nellies have been lying in wait for him. END.

Barry Lew doesn't win as many races and his wins aren't in the same extraordinary fashion.

[VVV] Exactly...and so enters what I believe to be the abject hypocrisy of the arguments from the anti-Luke brigade. By and large their outrage is not about the positive at all, rather it cloaked in the let's have clean racing garb but it is in reality solely aimed at dragging him back to the field. END.


People are emotional for a few reasons; they have been slandered on this forum and elsewhere as jealous and poor trainers with names like peanut gallery and this positive would seem to open the door on confirming their thoughts around the reasons why LM gets horses to fly.

[VVV] I can understand that to a degree but the Lord helps those who help themselves.
Standing at the bar at yearling sales drinking beers and burbons doesn't ever get it done.
Anyone only needed to be in attendance at the Sydney APG and the day prior and make note of the bigger team NSW Trainers who were there...and how hard they were working in terms of looking at yearlings to get a fair heads up on who is serious and who is not...at least at the deeper end of the pool. Luke was out there, Barry was there, as were Neil Day, Peter Rixon, Peter Russo and from what I saw that was pretty much it. Maybe I have done others a big disservice & they also were there but I didn't see them.
Outside of NSW...Mark Purdon and Natalie were there on Saturday whilst Andy Gath, Noel Alexander & Jayne Davies all never stopped looking both on Saturday and Sunday. It's as always the old story. The harder you work the luckier you get. END.



Regards

Jaimie

[teecee]

So are you saying that on this forum - unusual for its real ID requirement, that you think unlike any other forum, our mods should not have some identifier in their ID so that readers new or first time - know that they are a mod?

Forget any ingrained desire to brown nose - simply answer the above question

Have a look back at post 132. The forum administrator has an answer to your query.

[David Summers]

So are you saying that on this forum - unusual for its real ID requirement, that you think unlike any other forum, our mods should not have some identifier in their ID so that readers new or first time - know that they are a mod?

Forget any ingrained desire to brown nose - simply answer the above question

Very strange response. All I am doing is simply answering your question of where to find out who are the mods of this forum.

Update: The forum moderators now have the title "Super Moderator" showing under their nickname next to their posts.

[Triple V]

Take it easy David. It's really no dramas.

Regards

Jaimie

[Zyuganov Leis]

"[VVV] I can understand that to a degree but the Lord helps those who help themselves.

Standing at the bar at yearling sales drinking beers and burbons doesn't ever get it done.

Anyone only needed to be in attendance at the Sydney APG and the day prior and make note of the bigger team NSW Trainers who were there...and how hard they were working in terms of looking at yearlings to get a fair heads up on who is serious and who is not...at least at the deeper end of the pool. Luke was out there, Barry was there, as were Neil Day, Peter Rixon, Peter Russo and from what I saw that was pretty much it. Maybe I have done others a big disservice & they also were there but I didn't see them.

Outside of NSW...Mark Purdon and Natalie were there on Saturday whilst Andy Gath, Noel Alexander & Jayne Davies all never stopped looking both on Saturday and Sunday. It's as always the old story. The harder you work the luckier you get. END."


You musn't have saw Dennis Wilson (brought a couple), Blake Fitzpatrick (brought a couple plus getting the nice ones brought by Liam O'Connor), Mark Purdon and Natalie Rasmussan who all spent the entire Friday afternoon inspecting lot after lot.

Trainers who whinge about other trainers getting 'all the good horses' should get off the ass and put in, prospect new clients, cultivate existing, pr themselves and stop whining.

if your training, it's your business, promote it like everyone else does in outside industry everyday of the week. 90% of trainers bloody whinge about the game and they don't have a good horse like it's the right to get one, yet don't do a thing to try and get one.

I know one consignee on Sunday who promoted her stock really well, and I heard other's knock her for "being a bloody pr machine" yet she went home with all three (3) sold and two (2) of those, WELL above her expectations. She loves the game, works her tale off and got the rewards.

90% of trainers wouldn't even put out a newsletter to their clients or even have a website. It's 2012 ladies and gentleman and they run 1.51 not 2.00 like 'back in the day' so get up, get with it and go and attract owners to your barn.

TJ was the best and a forerunner at it, Gai followed suit and now every galloping stable has a 'racing manager' constantly pr'ing and communicating to their clients, media and the marketplace. Harness trainers still walk around talking about 'back in the day' and their 'one big plunge' at Upper Combucta West many moons ago, blah, blah, blah, boorrring!!!

[Triple V]

[VVV] Wasn't out there on Friday so I didn't see Dennis nor Blake. As I noted I did see Mark & Natalie on Saturday around mid morning. It's no coincidence that those who do the legwork tend to get the results.[/B]

Trainers who whinge about other trainers getting 'all the good horses' should get off the ass and put in, prospect new clients, cultivate existing, pr themselves and stop whining.

[VVV] That's it in a nutshell. I get the impression that a lot of the public trainers are still back in the days where they expect if they stand around long enough that horses to just fall into their laps.

, if your training, it's your business, promote it like everyone else does in outside industry everyday of the week. 90% of trainers bloody whinge about the game and they don't have a good horse like it's the right to get one, yet don't do a thing to try and get one.
[VVV] Spot on. Coudln't agree more.

I know one consignee on Sunday who promoted her stock really well, and I heard other's knock her for "being a bloody pr machine" yet she went home with all three (3) sold and two (2) of those, WELL above her expectations. She loves the game, works her tale off and got the rewards.
[VVV] I know who you are talking about. She did an excellent job. Hard to expect others to believe in your stock if you give the impression you don't believe in them.

90% of trainers wouldn't even put out a newsletter to their clients or even have a website. It's 2012 ladies and gentleman and they run 1.51 not 2.00 like 'back in the day' so get up, get with it and go and attract owners to your barn.
[VVV] Testify Borther Craig. Couldn't agree more.

TJ was the best and a forerunner at it, Gai followed suit and now every galloping stable has a 'racing manager' constantly pr'ing and communicating to their clients, media and the marketplace. Harness trainers still walk around talking about 'back in the day' and their 'one big plunge' at Upper Combucta West many moons ago, blah, blah, blah, boorrring!!!
[VVV] True again.


Regards

Jaimie

[Greg Hando]

Here Here to all the above, to many are stuck in the old way's and wont change so i suppose "you can't help those who wont help themselves".

[Drivemecrazy]

INteresting read. I have been away on business and not had a chance to catch up. Has there been any response from the Mcarthy stable? I think someone put down the google answers to what the substance is, but i dont think that it explained really why you would use the drug Boldenone. I dont know much about this colt, so How old is he, where was he previously, and is there any record of this drug being given to him as a younger horse? just asking as it seems to be more of a cell building drug, and with such a long half life ..

Could be interesting to follow from this perspective.

I do hope that this is sorted out fast.

[tiny]

The only thing said publicly was by father John in the SMH. He said an im paraphrasing Luke won't be driving Mr feelgood he's staying home to sort out the positive. We think there has been an error made in the way the swab was collected at Newcastle boldenone is long lasting and you can't have clean swabs shortly previously and shortly after.

Privately Luke is shattered and at a complete loss to explain it and had no knowledge of what boldenone even was previous to this.

[Drivemecrazy]

I guess that he would be shattered. I personally think that this would have to be a mistake. Having met the family, it does not seem plausable. With the other positive on the night it does make for a very unusual case. Good luck to them in getting his name cleared quickly.

[The Form Student]

Kaybee, this case is in the balance, it is completely unusual, let's not make derogatory accusations..........this one is now best left to the inquiry.......but I still would like to know what level od Boldenone was found, surely that can be released after 2 separate analysts have dealt with the swabs.
Luke has a large stable of horses and no previous misdemeanours...........surely he is innocent, until proven otherwise!

[The Form Student]

What happened to Kaybee's post..............he was entitled to his thoughts???

[barney]

Agree he is entitled to his thoughts is a free country.And he was not being defamatory.The truth is Luke has had a positive swab and it now up to him to prove it false.

[teecee]

What happened to Kaybee's post..............he was entitled to his thoughts???
You answered that question with your own post.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=barney;17682]Agree he is entitled to his thoughts is a free country.And he was not being defamatory.

In your opinion.???

[TSW]

Funny how all the loudest voices have been banned or suspended for one flimsy reason or another. I have returned from a week in the sin bin because I stated that the next positive was to be BL's. Only BL. Not Barry Lew, not Bin Laden, not Brett Lee or not any name just BL and the precious moderators red carded me. PEA HEARTS.
Now everyone wants to back off because of the theory that there must be something wrong with the swab samples. Someone even stating " This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between."
So, someone can now question the integrity of the lab or whoever conducted the swab collection without conviction. It may well be the case but until it is reported publicly, posts like that should not be allowed to be published and should have been deleted as soon as detected by the Mods. Now that it is on public record that a L MaCarthy runner has shown an irregularity, I could say that 'Clearly L Mc adminstered a banned substance to his horse' and I would probably get outed again. Let's have a level playing field. Too many not so defamatory threads have been booted and posters been outed for making trivial comments. Someone needs to grow a pair and let some of the controversy through or your topics are all going to sound like fairy tales or butt kissing.

[broncobrad]

Hey Tim

When I saw your post referring to BL I thought you were talking about me!!! I don't recall any vets following me with a cup.

I have been on this forum long enough to know that if you infer without backing up statements you run the risk of being banned. As expected when Lukes positive came to light the forum went into overdrive. It would appear that some of those drivers were serial offenders of defamatory statements and/or had dual identitys with barrows to push and have duly been banned. No problems with that. I think you can say that L Mc presented a horse for competition with a banned substance. You can't say L Mc administered a banned substance (or in this case had exceeded the threshold for boldenone). Big difference.

But it would seem to have a knock on effect of stifling conversation on issues that matter. I certainly agree with you on that. When TeeCee is moderating it feels like you need your bush lawyers handbook beside you when posting.

[The Form Student]

Hey Brad, I think I will nominate you for inaugural president of the Maclean Trotting Club!

[aussiebreno]

Maclean Trotting Club, the Colgate Kid..what next?

[The Form Student]

Talking about the Colgate Kid, I was only reading the story behind the 1996 Inter Dominion final won by Young Mister Charles...........and the favourite was Sunshine Band driven by the "Colgate Kid".......it seems they were querying him back then about TCO2 levels in the heats.......but decided not to take any action!......it was a good report and brought back lots of memories.
www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm (http://www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm)

Re, the Maclean Trotting Club there is no track north of Newcastle or east of Tamworth for Brad to go to, which makes it a remote position, his closest would be the Gold Coast.........probably 2.5 - 3 hours away.......thought HRNSW should look at a track up that way......maybe a seachange would be good for everybody!........How is Wagga Beach today?

[aussiebreno]

Talking about the Colgate Kid, I was only reading the story behind the 1996 Inter Dominion final won by Young Mister Charles...........and the favourite was Sunshine Band driven by the "Colgate Kid".......it seems they were querying him back then about TCO2 levels in the heats.......but decided not to take any action!......it was a good report and brought back lots of memories.
www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm (http://www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm)

Re, the Maclean Trotting Club there is no track north of Newcastle or east of Tamworth for Brad to go to, which makes it a remote position, his closest would be the Gold Coast.........probably 2.5 - 3 hours away.......thought HRNSW should look at a track up that way......maybe a seachange would be good for everybody!........How is Wagga Beach today?
Pretty calm and quiet this time of day, but it gets a bit crowded when the 5 oclock wave rolls in.

[tiny]

Perhaps we should add the Colgate kid to the where are they now thread???

[The Form Student]

Perhaps we should add the Colgate kid to the where are they now thread???

That's a good idea!....that's why I started it.....just so we can find out what others are doing these days.........he is probably at Curl Curl surfing!

[teecee]

Funny how all the loudest voices have been banned or suspended for one flimsy reason or another. I have returned from a week in the sin bin because I stated that the next positive was to be BL's. Only BL. Not Barry Lew, not Bin Laden, not Brett Lee or not any name just BL and the precious moderators red carded me.
Now everyone wants to back off because of the theory that there must be something wrong with the swab samples. Someone even stating " This swab is clearly an error at the lab or in the collection of the swab. As has been previously stated bolderone is long lasting and there is no way that a horse can test negative shortly before and shortly after and have a positive in between."
So, someone can now question the integrity of the lab or whoever conducted the swab collection without conviction. It may well be the case but until it is reported publicly, posts like that should not be allowed to be published and should have been deleted as soon as detected by the Mods. Now that it is on public record that a L MaCarthy runner has shown an irregularity, I could say that 'Clearly L Mc adminstered a banned substance to his horse' and I would probably get outed again. Let's have a level playing field. Too many not so defamatory threads have been booted and posters been outed for making trivial comments. Someone needs to grow a pair and let some of the controversy through or your topics are all going to sound like fairy tales or butt kissing.
Quite clearly you have still not read the rules under which this forum operates. Nor have you bothered to read the rules that have been specifically set out for this forum. They are readily available to all who wish to register and contribute constructively to the forums.
Accordingly the rule in part which you breached and continually press the limits on I have printed below.

Hinting that somebody is or might be cheating is the same as saying it directly. We can all read between the lines and that type of carry on is not allowed.

The job of the moderators is to ensure comments made on this forum are civil, not demeaning, is not going bring legal action against any members of this forum nor the owners of Harnesslink. We do that by simply ensuring posts are consistent with the forums' rules. IMO I speak for all moderators that we are not intimidated by posts such as this and will continue to act in the best interests of the vast majority of members and management of HARNESSLINK.

[The Form Student]

Hey teecee, are you on duty this afternoon? It must be starting to get dark over there, you better put the lamb stew on the stove to warm up!

[teecee]

No just about to go work the team.
.Get the barbie going after that...about 8.!! Sun still bright till 10:30 pm here

[TSW]

Let's assume there is an error with the testing equipment, what would that mean to other recent positives that have been detected by the same labs? Having one sample go to Lab A and detecting an irregularity, it makes obvious sense to send sample two go to Lab B for verification and this is the procedure anyway. If there is an error found, the whole testing procedure gets thrown on its head and all sorts of dramas unfold. Where will that all lead too?

[p plater]

Let's assume there is an error with the testing equipment, what would that mean to other recent positives that have been detected by the same labs? Having one sample go to Lab A and detecting an irregularity, it makes obvious sense to send sample two go to Lab B for verification and this is the procedure anyway. If there is an error found, the whole testing procedure gets thrown on its head and all sorts of dramas unfold. Where will that all lead too?

This senario may not be quite correct, in the Smoken Up Inter case the first 2 control samples tested contaminated and the Lab blamed the machine. The sitting committee accepted this explanation by the Lab and you know the result, it's still going.

[Danno]

Talking about the Colgate Kid, I was only reading the story behind the 1996 Inter Dominion final won by Young Mister Charles...........and the favourite was Sunshine Band driven by the "Colgate Kid".......it seems they were querying him back then about TCO2 levels in the heats.......but decided not to take any action!......it was a good report and brought back lots of memories.
www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm (http://www.harness.org.au/inter/1996p_per.htm)

Re, the Maclean Trotting Club there is no track north of Newcastle or east of Tamworth for Brad to go to, which makes it a remote position, his closest would be the Gold Coast.........probably 2.5 - 3 hours away.......thought HRNSW should look at a track up that way......maybe a seachange would be good for everybody!........How is Wagga Beach today?

Brad could always skip down the road to Taree, there's a perfectly good half mile track at the Showground that has been lying idle for a while now, waiting for someone to get things going on the coast again BRAD!!
There you go you've been nominated ans seconded!!

[tiny]

I think the fact the samples are tested a two different labs rules out contamination of the lab equipment. But it doesn't rule out contamination during the collection of the swab. What if the vet collecting the sample had used boldenone and the contaminants were on his hands??? It would explain two different trainers on the same night going positive.

Swabs have been contaminated by coffee before there was one last year.

[The Form Student]

It seems there is no hope of some of these old tracks racing again............in Victoria they have gone on a camapign to bring back to life some of the old tracks.........but it is business as usual in NSW, everything leads to Menangle, so who needs so many tracks when the punters just want to bet, and TAB turnover is the prime concern............There are so many tracks in the Riverina and out west, I'm sure something is going to give out that way soon! At the moment that is the place to be, it is thriving!

[Danno]

I think the fact the samples are tested a two different labs rules out contamination of the lab equipment. But it doesn't rule out contamination during the collection of the swab. What if the vet collecting the sample had used boldenone and the contaminants were on his hands??? It would explain two different trainers on the same night going positive.

Swabs have been contaminated by coffee before there was one last year.

Tiny, using that logic, Our St Monica should have had a positive for boldenone as well!

Mach Wiper swabbed Race 6

Our St Monicha swabbed race 7

Karloo Kix swabbed race 9

Maybe it wasn't on the vets hands? maybe it was on his/her shirt sleeve?? and this accidentally touched intermittent samples??

[aussiebreno]

It seems there is no hope of some of these old tracks racing again............in Victoria they have gone on a camapign to bring back to life some of the old tracks.........but it is business as usual in NSW, everything leads to Menangle, so who needs so many tracks when the punters just want to bet, and TAB turnover is the prime concern............There are so many tracks in the Riverina and out west, I'm sure something is going to give out that way soon! At the moment that is the place to be, it is thriving!
When one says the Riverina is thriving you know things must be bad in other places!

[tiny]

Dan
I know it sounds unlikely but that is the only plausible explanation I can think of. Mack wiper has returned clean swabs shortly before and after and all the info on boldenone says it stays in the system about 12 months.

[murray green]

Dan
I know it sounds unlikely but that is the only plausible explanation I can think of. Mack wiper has returned clean swabs shortly before and after and all the info on boldenone says it stays in the system about 12 months.

Tiny
Read what Teecee wrote #149. This may help you.

[tiny]

Tiny
Read what Teecee wrote #149. This may help you.

I asked one of the stewards if all prohibited substances were tested for in each swab and he said they are. So back to the only theory left.

[The Form Student]

When one says the Riverina is thriving you know things must be bad in other places!

I just meant there is quite a lot of activity down their with the number of meetings, trials, number of races at a meeting and full fields etc

[barney]

I asked one of the stewards if all prohibited substances were tested for in each swab and he said they are. So back to the only theory left.

The other theory is masking agents

[The Form Student]

The other theory is masking agents

That is it..........and if it is.......we are going to need some very highly qualified vets/forensics to argue the point! This could be the begining of a new TV series Miami Newcastle CSI!!!!!!!!!

[tiny]

Don't just cover one night in Newcastle. How about a mini series covering the last twelve months. I recon it would be top of the rateings.

[Triple V]

Care to elaborate on that suggestion Barney?

What substances would you suggest are being used as a masking agents ?

What drugs are those masking agents attempting to disguise the presence of ?

From a chemistry/testing regime aspect, how exactly do these masking agents succeed in covering up the presence of illegal substances?

Unless of course it was all just more of a 'throw-away line'?

[Triple V]

I asked one of the stewards if all prohibited substances were tested for in each swab and he said they are. So back to the only theory left.

[VVV] That's a pretty foolish answer for a Steward to give you Andy because common sense dictates that courtesy of the couple of tubes of blood they take, pathology wise it is just physically impossible to pull enough blood to test for everything on the performance enhancing radar...on top of it being financially ridiculously expensive to do so. Add that to the fact that there is no shotgun/fishing net style multi platform test for nefarious substances, there never has been and there most likely never will be and the real answer is of course, no they are not. The test for used to detect bute is not the test for a narcotic which in turn is of course not the test for a hormone which is not the test for micera which is in turn not the test for elevated TCO2 etc etc etc. With the garden variety things I think they just get picked up as a matter of course but at the same time with the less common/more exotic substances I think it's more than reasonable to suggest that the Stewards have to strongly suspect that a specific substance is being used in order to zero in their testing. For example, if a trainer was using an obscure human dementia drug as in fact was the case in the US last year, no way any of the run of the mill tests would ever pick it up.

[tiny]

VVV. You mean that he told me a lie???

[barney]

Masking agents are used as i said in an earlier post a very successful trainer once said to a mate of mine Dont ask what im using as what im using to mask it.

If i put the trainers name on this site i would be banned.

Just wondering are you suggesting they dont exsist.

[Triple V]

Masking agents are used as i said in an earlier post a very successful trainer once said to a mate of mine Dont ask what im using as what im using to mask it.

If i put the trainers name on this site i would be banned.

Just wondering are you suggesting they dont exsist.


[VVV] They are...are they? Ok. Nobody's asking you to name the person. That has nothing to do with it.
Rather I'm asking that you substantiate that they are being used, first by naming one or more such substances that are able to be used in such a fashion and then by noting how it is/they are being used, what drug or drugs that it/they disguise the presence of & (chemically) how it/they achieve to achieve that.
I'm not suggesting that they do or do not exist. I'm not the one who made the statement.

[barney]

The other theory is masking agents

As you will see i didnt say they are being used i said the other theory is masking agents..

Google up masking agents for steriods and you will see they exist.

[Triple V]

VVV. You mean that he told me a lie???

[VVV] Perish the thought Andy, perish the thought.

[murray green]

As you will see i didnt say they are being used i said the other theory is masking agents..

Google up masking agents for steriods and you will see they exist.

Found this intresting Brian.
Bicarb is also a masking agent.

Telegraph Sport understands that the closest high-profile parallel with Touré’s case is that of cricketer Shane Warne, who was banned for a year in 2003 after he tested for a banned diuretic that he said was contained in one of his grandmother’s diet pills.
In Warne’s case the diuretic was banned because it was a “masking agent” capable of covering the use of steroids. Despite arguing that he had taken the substance inadvertently, he was banned for 12 months.

[TSW]

I think the fact the samples are tested a two different labs rules out contamination of the lab equipment. But it doesn't rule out contamination during the collection of the swab. What if the vet collecting the sample had used boldenone and the contaminants were on his hands??? It would explain two different trainers on the same night going positive.

Swabs have been contaminated by coffee before there was one last year.

How about the fact they don't usually test for Boldenone these days. Add the fact that L Mc and B Lew are very good mates, that would diminish the coincidence theory a bit. Were any other swabs taken that night? Why did they not return a positive?

[TSW]

The other theory is masking agents

Name any masking agent. Masking agents are a myth.

[murray green]

Name any masking agent. Masking agents are a myth.

Hi Tim . A large percentage of positive returns in athletics etc are firstly to masking agents such as dieretics , turtle jelly etc . They then look further . Most masking agents do such a good job they have been made illegal substances .

[TSW]

So, you're saying that it is a possibility to beat the Breathalyser? Take a diuretic or serving of turtle jelly and demand a blood test.

[teecee]

How about the fact they don't usually test for Boldenone these days FACT 1!!
.Add the fact that L Mc and B Lew are very good mates, that would diminish the coincidence theory a bit FACT 2 !!
.Name any masking agent. Masking agents are a myth. FACT 3 ????????

[The Form Student]

How about the fact they don't usually test for Boldenone these days FACT 1!!
.Add the fact that L Mc and B Lew are very good mates, that would diminish the coincidence theory a bit FACT 2 !!
.Name any masking agent. Masking agents are a myth. FACT 3 ????????

Re FACT 2 - I hope that they are also testing for Boldenone on previous swabs from other mates too!......then that would be a big conicidence!

[teecee]

When TeeCee is moderating it feels like you need your bush lawyers handbook beside you when posting.

Hey Brad...
You need not feel that way but if you do and for all those others who feel a need I have included a copy of the Bush Lawyers manual I use here on the forum.
Courtesy of HARNESSLINK management...:)


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[The Form Student]

Hey teecee can't you sleep tonight, it is nearly 1 AM over the ditch, or do you have an autopilot operating when you are asleep? Listen, how was the BBQ tonight, they tell me those NZ Raglan steaks are the most tender meat you will ever eat........they are never tough...........Sweet Dreams......

[teecee]

Hey teecee can't you sleep tonight, it is nearly 1 AM over the ditch, or do you have an autopilot operating when you are asleep? Listen, how was the BBQ tonight, they tell me those NZ Raglan steaks are the most tender meat you will ever eat........they are never tough...........Sweet Dreams......

Yes am wondering how much cooking an Aussie steak would take especially under a reactor powered bbq. I'm guessing less than a Raglan steak. He must have crisped up under the long hot sun over there.

[The Form Student]

Yes am wondering how much cooking an Aussie steak would take especially under a reactor powered bbq. I'm guessing less than a Raglan steak. He must have crisped up under the long hot sun over there.

Now he might be a chance, hopefully he draws the front..........fridays heats will give us a last look...............before the steaks are ready to be eaten in the final!

[broncobrad]

Thanks TeeCee, I am going to put a copy under my pillow tonight and try and absorb it.

[murray green]

So, you're saying that it is a possibility to beat the Breathalyser? Take a diuretic or serving of turtle jelly and demand a blood test.

Your showing your ignorance ,Tim , if you think that blood alcohol levels and breathalysers have a conection with masking agents . Masking agents work when the amount of drug or steroid is at a very low level . Diretics are used to cause a high flow of urination to flush out and thin the drug used . Steroids are used to train up on and by the time a person or animal gets to race the levels are so small that they are basically undetectable . A masking agent will dirty the water as such so that at these very low levels a genuine positive is indeterminable . The effects of steroids , like EPO , goes on for many weeks after it is unable to be identified . Blood alcohol levels and drug use are at far greater levels and canot be masked because of this , but if you want to give it a go try munching a box of Tic Tacs next time your pulled over by the booze bus . It may , at least , give you a couple of seconds of hope .

[Greg Hando]

I've been thinking about the 2 horse's not showing up pos either side of the night they came back positive,probably because they weren't tested for it either side, i have come to the conclusion that both are positive and should be charged accordingly as per the rule's when and if found guilty.

[TSW]

I'm not a Chemist, Pathologist or a Big Bang Theory cast member and I'm certainly not going to read all the literature out there availble on these topics as my brain would explode. I'm relying on the smarties on this site that know a thing or two about how these things work. The way I see it, if there is a substance in your system, it's in your system. Any 'masking' agent used to hide a substance would, in my mind only diminish the potency of the substance being used if only lower readings are obtained. Have tests been conducted to verify that 'masking agents' do work or is that just another theory applied to the rules on speculation?

[TSW]

I've been thinking about the 2 horse's not showing up pos either side of the night they came back positive,probably because they weren't tested for it either side, i have come to the conclusion that both are positive and should be charged accordingly as per the rule's when and if found guilty.

The charge is 'Presenting a horse to race with a prohibited substance', not 'Administering a horse with a prohibited substance'. The inference that all the knockers are making is that if the horse did present with a substance, they administered it as well. They won't hear any BS excuse or other boloney. Their minds are made up and anything to the contrary is a cover up or conspiracy to protect the sport.

[Greg Hando]

Yeah i'm not saying that just they are pos.

[TSW]

I wasn't inferring that you were thinking that. Apologies if that's how it reads to you.

[Greg Hando]

No worries Tim wasn't sure .

[barney]

Name any masking agent. Masking agents are a myth.

Spoke to a chemist today who has horses.He told me that masking agents are not a myth are a fact dirutetics are one but said there are a lot of them.I then asked how they worked and he said the simplest way to explain is in a urine sample they confuse the detection of the substance by mixing with the steroid or whatever they are masking.Also explained that a lot of masking agents are banned for that reason

[The Form Student]

In the 2 recent cases for TCO2 positive swabs for A Bucca & J Glover, the decision on penalty included in Mr Glover's case the "the level of the prohibited substance detected" ....so why are we not privy to the levels detected in all cases of positive swabs??????? It would make it easier to understand the penalties given. We don't even know whether the level of Glover or Bucca was the higher?????? The inference here would be that the Glover level was maybe higher (Just a guess!), than Bucca, but because of the previous misdemeanour by Bucca his penalty was higher,but only just. I won't go into personal circumstances???

Mr Glover was disqualified for a period of 10 months effective immediately. In assessing penalty Stewards took into account, his guilty plea, his unblemished record for offences under a similar Rule, the level of the prohibited substance detected, the nature the of the prohibited substance, the seriousness of the offence and his personal circumstances

Mr Bucca was disqualified for a period of 12 months effective immediately. In assessing penalty Stewards took into account, his guilty plea, his previous offence under a similar Rule, , the nature the of the prohibited substance, the seriousness of the offence, the status of the race and his personal circumstances.

Therefore, if the levels were advised, the discussion here would possbly be limited i.e. a much higher level of Boldenone than could possibly be naturally occurring in a horse (stallion), would therefore rule out this for a start.................my point being that HRNSW gives out ambiguous information regarding "irregularities"..........the recent case of detected EPO..........which has been sent to another lab for testing at present. They may as well not have have told us, they won't mention who is involved, and as far as anybody knows that trainer is still operating.......so what was the point!..........I am not asking for a copy of the labs report either! We continue to discuss TCO2 levels every day or so, but don't know the levels detected...........HRNSW can you help us out??????

[tiny]

Under harness racings prohibited substances policy it doesn't matter what the level is or what the substance is they are all treated the same. I don't like it but that's the way it is. If you read the transcripts of appeals that show levels there. The lines stating all the things they considered is just to stop them being considered at an appeal later.

As for disqualifications for big name trainers it didn't happin and won't happin. They are too important for racing. Disqualifications are for the no namers and fines are for the big boys..

[The Form Student]

Under harness racings prohibited substances policy it doesn't matter what the level is or what the substance is they are all treated the same. I don't like it but that's the way it is. If you read the transcripts of appeals that show levels there.

As for disqualifications for big name trainers it didn't happin and won't happin. They are too important for racing. Disqualifications are for the no namers and fines are for the big boys..

The stewards have assessed their penalties for the offences and part of the penalty includes "the level of the prohibited substance detected" so therefore the level should be advised...............it is quite simple........I know the offence is proven, their statement not mine, but I am supportive of the fact that levels do make a diffrerence to penalty!!!!

[teecee]

Am I right to believe that these stewards hearings of serious offences are held behind closed doors and verdicts and penalties are paraphrased with minimal detail to their own websites only.?

[tiny]

That's correct TC. No more detail avalible other than what is in the media brief and they appear to be a templet that you just change the name and substance and penalty.

Full transcripts of appeals are published though.

[The Form Student]

When you get caught by the breathalyser, you are either LOW, MEDIUM or HIGH, penalties are dished out on the level achieved........if they want total transparency with their operation, they must release the level as a matter of course!

[teecee]

That will only start to happen when they publish full hearing transcripts.
It can only obtain total transparency when they give up the job of judge / jury as well as prosecutor.

[tiny]

I agree with what you saying but harness racing see it as it doesn't matter ever way your still pissed.

I think I am correct in saying many substances the higher the level the bigger the effect.. I think it also can give an indication of wether it was administered accidentally or maliciously and also how long ago as the level reduces as it is metabolized.

[tiny]

That will only start to happen when they publish full hearing transcripts.
It can only obtain total transparency when they give up the job of judge / jury as well as prosecutor.

Spot on

That system serves well on race day to get a result by the next race. At major enquires away from the track they should have someone other than the stewards act as judge.

[beecee]

Can anyone tell me why the winners of Race no 4 and 7 were not swabbed last Tuesday at Menangle?

[tiny]

Because swabbing is to expensive. Sam Nati made front page trot guide news by announcing the same policy that has been in place for the last 30 years.

While ever all winners are not swabed there will be allocations a stewards taking money in the same way we have seen and the temptation for it to accrue again.

I would have thought this one was a no brainer.

[murray green]

I'm not a Chemist, Pathologist or a Big Bang Theory cast member and I'm certainly not going to read all the literature out there availble on these topics as my brain would explode. I'm relying on the smarties on this site that know a thing or two about how these things work. The way I see it, if there is a substance in your system, it's in your system. Any 'masking' agent used to hide a substance would, in my mind only diminish the potency of the substance being used if only lower readings are obtained. Have tests been conducted to verify that 'masking agents' do work or is that just another theory applied to the rules on speculation?
Hi Tim . Read post 86 on page 9 in this thread . These steroids don't have to be in the horses system to have received a massive advantage . Working horses up on these steroids builds their muscle mass , increases their red blood cell count to a level like EPO . These effects last for months even when their levels return to normal .

[teecee]

That's correct TC. No more detail avalible other than what is in the media brief and they appear to be a templet that you just change the name and substance and penalty.

Full transcripts of appeals are published though.
I just found one of these media releases. Using a template alright..!!
It's an absolute nonsense. It says quote in part.." the prohibited substance total carbon dioxide plasma" unquote.
There is no such thing as this and none of these are prohibited nor do they have a threshold.
the term is "total carbon dioxide in plasma" in excess of the specified threshold of....

[Greg Hando]

Good get teecee never noticed that before, you would think if you appealed you would get off for under a technicality for not having the right wording on the charge sheet ?

[Triple V]

Good get teecee never noticed that before, you would think if you appealed you would get off for under a technicality for not having the right wording on the charge sheet ?

[VVV] The problem as I see it is that unfortunately, by & large those doing the charging are only marginally sharper that those being charged. Essentially...in the land of the blind it is old mate, the one-eyed man, who is King.
It also relies on the fact that for the most part participants simply do not have the financial wherewithal to mount any sort of a half reasonable legal challenge, so even in such instances where charge sheets are worded as poorly as that one appears to have been...they stand.
Total Carbon Dioxide Plasma is a prohibited substance as well now eh? Jesus wept...and did so profusely. :(

[Old Frank]

Maybe I've missed it but has there been any announcement by HRNSW as to the hearing dates for McCarthy and Lew?

I know they were only announced last week as positives, but said with date to be fixed, however were just wondering?

[Greg Hando]

Not yet as far as i know they are still waiting for the full result's to come back from HK i think.

[tiny]

Not yet as far as i know they are still waiting for the full result's to come back from HK i think.

That is correct the B sample is yet to test positive.

This won't be going to an enquirey any time soon. Wich is a shame case it would be good for luke to clear his good name.

[racefair]

That is correct the B sample is yet to test positive.

This won't be going to an enquirey any time soon. Wich is a shame case it would be good for luke to clear his good name.

Hi Andy, what do you mean by "clear his good name". How can anyone one be 100% sure that there is an error or not an error?

[murray green]

That is correct the B sample is yet to test positive.

This won't be going to an enquirey any time soon. Wich is a shame case it would be good for luke to clear his good name.

Do you work for LM Tiny ????
You seem to know a lot .
So if the B sample is yet to test positive , and dosn't , what happens then ??
Do they throw it out or go with the fact the other sample is positive ??

[The Form Student]

Maybe some people should have taken up the deal below from one of this sites advertiser's on this thread!............

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[William]

Maybe some people should have taken up the deal below from one of this sites advertiser's on this thread!............

Pass a Urine Drug Test Compare Pass A Urine Drug Test prices http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/aclk?sa=L&ai=BOHwIGSdIT6SOB83kkQWV8vwRsMbCZajpvswEwI23AaCNBh ANGAIgpJjKAygEOABQkKivlPj_____AWCl-JGAkAGQAQSyARp3d3cuaGFybmVzc3JhY2luZ2ZvcnVtLmNvbbo BDXNtYS03Mjh4OTBfYXPIAQHaAVFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lmhhcm5lc 3NyYWNpbmdmb3J1bS5jb20vc2hvd3RocmVhZC5waHA_MjE3Mi1 CT09NLi4uLi5NY0NhcnRoeS1Qb3NpdGl2ZS7gAQKpAnIBESYx9 rE-yALm4ZETqAMBsAOXzdASyAMX6APYKegDugXoA4EC6AMt9QMAAQ DE9QMAAAAQ&num=2&sig=AOD64_3XZLJo9si3pDZfX23Kez-PxmfB_A&client=ca-pub-4567530699870450&adurl=http://au.shopping.com/xGS-pass%2520a%2520urine%2520drug%2520test~NS-1~linkin_id-8047608&nm=

Just a coincidence, or is it?

Steve I think you'll find those ads are different for everyone, depending on your browsing history..... don't worry I've seen the ad too :-)

[tiny]

For the record I don't work for LM. IMO this should have been thrown out already there is clearly an error.
But lets go ahead charge him find him guilty and have appeal after appeal go through the court system for the next 5 years all the while damaging the integrity of harness racing.

Luke is the leading trainer and should be treated better than this.

[murray green]

For the record I don't work for LM. IMO this should have been thrown out already there is clearly an error.
But lets go ahead charge him find him guilty and have appeal after appeal go through the court system for the next 5 years all the while damaging the integrity of harness racing.

Luke is the leading trainer and should be treated better than this.



Tiny I asked you a couple of questions .
You can answer them the best you can .
I would like to hear your opinion on them .
Thank you .

[William]

For the record I don't work for LM. IMO this should have been thrown out already there is clearly an error.
But lets go ahead charge him find him guilty and have appeal after appeal go through the court system for the next 5 years all the while damaging the integrity of harness racing.

Luke is the leading trainer and should be treated better than this.

Andy do you really believe McCarthy should not even be charged just because he is the leading trainer?