G HALL Jnr driving style

[Maorisidol]

So whats everbodys opinion of this mans pushout technique which is an obvious habit?

Apparently after a lengthy inquiry with stewards he has been cleared to drive Fri, but you cant tell me when he pushed Dasher VC out of the way, that that horse wasnt travelling well.
Dasher wasnt struggling, he wasnt under the whip, and yet Hall pushes him out of the way, checks and contacts the horses legs with his sulky, causes it to skip/gallop for a stride or 2, Dasher loses 2 lengths at least and instead of running maybe a closeish 2nd or 3rd??? he runs 5th, costing him prizemoney costing him ID points, and MORE IMPORTANTLY potentially injuring a damn good horse.
If that doesnt deserve a holiday ill go jump.
If you havent already got the idea, i dont like the guy.
Yes he was on the favourite and he had to do his best to win for the owners and punters, but its how you do it. Did Anthony Butt push out and interfere with any horse last week on Raglan when he stayed in and got boxed in, no, did he win, no, did he maintain his credibilty, yes.

[Harold Parker]

Dasher VC was going well I thought. How exactly does Lewis keep Hall boxed in without causing severe interference. Once the inside horse begins to push out, usually the horse further inside begins to roll out as well. Vacated positions get filled. It could of been carnage and Hall should get time for it.

That said, I'm sure it's not the first time Hall has given Lewis the shove. I'm surprised Lewis didn't drive accordingly by hooking a little wider sooner. That would of been interesting.

I caught the Red Eye back to Sydney after last nights races. I'm flying back on Friday but it was a little flat last night. I hope we see a few of the fringe horses have a serious dig on Friday.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

There is no way known they'd rub out their poster boy. I too am not a big fan of G. Hall, but i'm more annoyed at the stewards for not having the balls to rub out someone who deserves to be rubbed out. I'm pretty sure too that Butt would have got out too if he had have known you get away with it.

[The Form Student]

OK, there is one other question here..........Why didn't Chris Lewis put in a protest against ITMQ & G Hall.......now that would have been interesting!

[Triple V]

The specifics of that incident aside (which I didn't see), I think Jnr.'s the best 'instinct driver' there is going around right now & one of the best that I've ever seen. He is at his best when he simply reacts to race circumstances. In that respect he reminds me so much of US Hall Of Famer, Ron Pierce.
I think that's a very large slice of the reason why ITMQ & Jnr. have been such a formidable combination. Regardless of how things might line up at the draw and then turn out in a race, the horse has the tactical high speed to enable him to win from just about anywhere and Jnr. has the gut instincts to pull the trigger at just the right time.

[Harold Parker]

OK, there is one other question here..........Why didn't Chris Lewis put in a protest against ITMQ & G Hall.......now that would have been interesting!

because the stewards would of fined him for doing so.

Anyone here old enough to remember Two Under (Vin Knight) being relegated from 1st to 8th or worse for causing interference to one of the Kiwi wonder horses. 25-1 he was, I'm still hurting : )

[Harold Parker]

The specifics of that incident aside (which I didn't see), I think Jnr.'s the best 'instinct driver' there is going around right now & one of the best that I've ever seen. He is at his best when he simply reacts to race circumstances. In that respect he reminds me so much of US Hall Of Famer, Ron Pierce.
I think that's a very large slice of the reason why ITMQ & Jnr. have been such a formidable combination. Regardless of how things might line up at the draw and then turn out in a race, the horse has the tactical high speed to enable him to win from just about anywhere and Jnr. has the gut instincts to pull the trigger at just the right time.

One out One back in a crawl, stays in the 1-1 on a 1-10 Fav. That's insane not instinct. If only Lewis had got a wheels length on him to his outside. Hall would have 6 months to iron himself out. Nose to Nose the outside horse has zero shot of holding their line without knocking over three or four. Harness Racing at it's ugliest when horses stay in looking to force out a couple of hundred metres later.

[The Form Student]

This is a serious race, prizemoney and stature.............possibly miss out on a place in the final............so is it OK to protest if you run 2nd or 3rd, but not if you finish further back..........as people have stated earlier........the golden boy from WA lives to fight another day! If you drive a horse witha sit, then this situation is always going to happen........when the incident happened Dasher VC was outside ITMQ and only about a neck behind.....can't seem to warrant being allowed to push out!

[Harold Parker]

Now that the stewards have turned a blind eye to it, it could be demolition Derby at Gloucester Park on Friday night. The precedence has been set, do what you like Chaps !!

[Harold Parker]

Comparing Hall Jr to Ron Pierce, that's a gem : ) Having spent the better part of the last 3 years in the States I can 100% guarantee you, that you'd never find Pierce asleep at the wheel in a 8-10K Claimer let alone in a heat of the Meadowlands Pace, BC or Hambo. I was chatting to a guy last night at the track that told me that Hall Jr had been suspended twice in the last year or so for misjudging the distance of races.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Harold Parker;17668]because the stewards would of fined him for doing so.

Explain Please.

[Harold Parker]

[QUOTE=Harold Parker;17668]because the stewards would of fined him for doing so.

Explain Please.

For wasting their time.

[teecee]

Now that the stewards have turned a blind eye to it, it could be demolition Derby at Gloucester Park on Friday night. The precedence has been set, do what you like Chaps !!
I have not yet been privvy to all the info on this issue.
I am unable to find the stewards report for last night's meeting. From your comment you may know where I can find it so I can form a view.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=teecee;17674]

For wasting their time.
Why so.
Is he not allowed to protest if he feels his chances of finishing in a higher position are affected. It is more so importanat when all starters earn points to the finals.
If not who is ??

[p plater]

For those with a recent memory, you will recall at the last Interdom held in WA, G Hall jnr was suspended just prior to the start of the series BUT the penalty was not to start until after the Interdom series. Some would say he has a dream run over there. Not so lucky in the MM for crossing when not clear and you could hear the cheers from WA that he finally got done for it, as he is known for it in WA....penalty free

[Chariots]

You cannot compare the Butt and Hall drives as when Butt had the opportunity to push out it was prior to the designated ease out pole and he would definitely have been suspended for doing so. The Hall/Lewis incident was after the pole and Lewis endeavoured to hold his position but Hall had the momentum and the superior speed. The only suspension possibility was if jostling was involved and they appeared to be equally complicit in this regard.

As mentioned previously the clever thing for Lewis to have done was to have his horses legs outside the three wide horse thus closing any gap for Hall. dasher VC is not the best gated horse going around either and it was not surprising to see him pace roughly when pressure was applied. This is Grand Circuit racing at the highest level and you can expect similar moves in the rest of the heats and the final. Pretty much any outward movement after the 600m is permissible provided you have an advantage on the outside horse.

[Harold Parker]

You cannot compare the Butt and Hall drives as when Butt had the opportunity to push out it was prior to the designated ease out pole and he would definitely have been suspended for doing so. The Hall/Lewis incident was after the pole and Lewis endeavoured to hold his position but Hall had the momentum and the superior speed. The only suspension possibility was if jostling was involved and they appeared to be equally complicit in this regard.

As mentioned previously the clever thing for Lewis to have done was to have his horses legs outside the three wide horse thus closing any gap for Hall. dasher VC is not the best gated horse going around either and it was not surprising to see him pace roughly when pressure was applied. This is Grand Circuit racing at the highest level and you can expect similar moves in the rest of the heats and the final. Pretty much any outward movement after the 600m is permissible provided you have an advantage on the outside horse.

I have issue with the push out rule, 600m is it ? because at no point is the horse with the three wide trail any hope of holding that line with a driver agressively rolling out underneath it no matter how well it's travelling. So at the 600m or just a tad later re last night, Lewis made the mistake of not hooking 4 wide because the driver on the 1-10 Fav pocketed himself 300m earlier. I didn't see the coverage last night, I was at the track but I suspect they were saying what a great drive it was. It could get messy on Friday in all 11 races : )

[Chariots]

Up until approximately 2 years ago you could ease from the 900m and it appeared that there was serious issues with jostling and head to head movement so it was moved further on until the 600m. WA racing has been under this rule for some time so I don't see the rest of the series being anything different to the normal racing pattern. One lesson from the Butt/Hall drives is that you are really rolling the dice if you allow yourself to be covered in the last 800m at GP

[Harold Parker]

I love the racing in WA but they've made a few balls ups over there in recent times. Shortening the distances i.e to the first corner was rubbish. 7 and 5 is too many as well. All bought about I hear because Has The Answers was making a mockery of the Handicapping by zooming out. Even the arms of the mobile appear to favour the inside ?

[Chariots]

Agree with you about the release point but the seven/five start appears to have had a positive effect on handicapping and turnover.

[Maorisidol]

You cannot compare the Butt and Hall drives as when Butt had the opportunity to push out it was prior to the designated ease out pole and he would definitely have been suspended for doing so. The Hall/Lewis incident was after the pole and Lewis endeavoured to hold his position but Hall had the momentum and the superior speed. The only suspension possibility was if jostling was involved and they appeared to be equally complicit in this regard.

As mentioned previously the clever thing for Lewis to have done was to have his horses legs outside the three wide horse thus closing any gap for Hall. dasher VC is not the best gated horse going around either and it was not surprising to see him pace roughly when pressure was applied. This is Grand Circuit racing at the highest level and you can expect similar moves in the rest of the heats and the final. Pretty much any outward movement after the 600m is permissible provided you have an advantage on the outside horse.

Would love to have this rule clarified, and, can fair play say the reason the rule came into existence is so horses who need a run can push out when....A HORSE ON ITS OUTSIDE IS GONZO! UNDER THE WHIP! STRUGGLING! ETC...
From what i saw as i first said in the opening post, Dasher was all dressed up and ready to go, ready to pull 3 wide, HOWEVER, cleverly his driver was also keeping ITMQ pocketed for as long as possible, thats called race tactics!!! Hence Hall had no right to nearly cause Dasher to gallop/fall/get injured/lose money/lose points etc.
So Chariots you say "Pretty much any outward movement after the 600m is permissible provided you have an advantage on the outside horse."
I feel he did not have an advantage, he should get a holiday, hes got time for doing it before and not to mention when someone did wrong by him in a race last year he got time for hitting that driver with his whip after they crossed the line!!! Theres the character of the man...
Cant wait for stewards report.

[Danno]

Would love to have this rule clarified, and, can fair play say the reason the rule came into existence is so horses who need a run can push out when....A HORSE ON ITS OUTSIDE IS GONZO! UNDER THE WHIP! STRUGGLING! ETC...
From what i saw as i first said in the opening post, Dasher was all dressed up and ready to go, ready to pull 3 wide, HOWEVER, cleverly his driver was also keeping ITMQ pocketed for as long as possible, thats called race tactics!!! Hence Hall had no right to nearly cause Dasher to gallop/fall/get injured/lose money/lose points etc.
So Chariots you say "Pretty much any outward movement after the 600m is permissible provided you have an advantage on the outside horse."
I feel he did not have an advantage, he should get a holiday, hes got time for doing it before and not to mention when someone did wrong by him in a race last year he got time for hitting that driver with his whip after they crossed the line!!! Theres the character of the man...
Cant wait for stewards report.

G'day Ash,
I know from you're earlier post GH Jnr is not your fav person, but that aside, there is a push out rule for a couple of reasons..to give all horses a chance and reduce the griping from the punters about "the trotters always get boxed in". It has been about for quite a few years, in NSW since around ther mid to late 80's if my memory serves me.
Before that it had been in existence in New Zealand for decades! I remember as a kid watching Phil Coulson pushing out from the rails and winning the 1971 Christchurch Inter final on Junior's Image, brilliant drive!! Subsequently lost the race to Stella Frost ( Doody Townley)due to a hotly disputed but nontheless upheld positive swab.

I can tell you from experience, if the inside horse has a head to neck advantage over the outside horse, he will usually succeed in getting out, if the outside horse has the same advantage you are hard pressed to budge him, however if the two horses are level, which ever horse is going the strongest will have it's way, if the outside horse ( in this case Dasher VC) had a bucket full of petrol in the tank he would have held his ground.

I am neither a fan nor a detractor of GH Jnr, but I enjoyed watching his drive... there are some who attempt this move and cause havoc because they try and run out at 90 degrees, I thought he caused as little interference to the other horse as possible while giving his own horse every chance within the rules..doing his job I'd call it.

Cheers,

Dan

[Maorisidol]

G'day Ash,
I know from you're earlier post GH Jnr is not your fav person, but that aside, there is a push out rule for a couple of reasons..to give all horses a chance and reduce the griping from the punters about "the trotters always get boxed in". It has been about for quite a few years, in NSW since around ther mid to late 80's if my memory serves me.
Before that it had been in existence in New Zealand for decades! I remember as a kid watching Phil Coulson pushing out from the rails and winning the 1973? Inter final on Junior's Image, brilliant drive!! Subsequently lost the race to Stella Frost ( Doody Townley)due to a hotly disputed but nontheless upheld positive swab.

I can tell you from experience, if the inside horse has a head to neck advantage over the outside horse, he will usually succeed in getting out, if the outside horse has the same advantage you are hard pressed to budge him, however if the two horses are level, which ever horse is going the strongest will have it's way, if the outside horse ( in this case Dasher VC) had a bucket full of petrol in the tank he would have held his ground.

I am neither a fan nor a detractor of GH Jnr, but I enjoyed watching his drive... there are some who attempt this move and cause havoc because they try and run out at 90 degrees, I thought he caused as little interference to the other horse as possible while giving his own horse every chance within the rules..doing his job I'd call it.

Cheers,

Dan

Thnx Dan, I hear ya.
My main gripe is "nearly cause Dasher to gallop/fall/get injured/lose money/lose points etc" if I owned Dasher and he very nearly injured my horse Hall would know about it fullon!
And my other point Dasher was still traveling well...

[Triple V]

I'm very surprised that you can't see the significant parallels there Robert. I really am. Driving wise, if they're not cut from the same bolt of cloth I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Good for him.........G.Hall , I am not a fan but at the same time he was shoulder to shoulder. At least he shows agression not like some drivers such as Grant Williams who shows zero initiative and because of that Chromac Johhny will not make the final and he is one of the better local horses.
I have driven both pacers and ridden gallopers and learnt early on if you do not push out it can cost you dearly, Lewis as good as a driver he was should have pushed Hall back in, they after all very good drivers. It is racing afterall..............prizemoney and punting dollars are on the line.

[Triple V]

Comparing Hall Jr to Ron Pierce, that's a gem : ) Having spent the better part of the last 3 years in the States I can 100% guarantee you, that you'd never find Pierce asleep at the wheel in a 8-10K Claimer let alone in a heat of the Meadowlands Pace, BC or Hambo. I was chatting to a guy last night at the track that told me that Hall Jr had been suspended twice in the last year or so for misjudging the distance of races.

[VVV]
HP writes [Having spent the better part of the last 3 years in the States I can 100% guarantee you, that you'd never find Pierce asleep at the wheel in a 8-10K Claimer let alone in a heat of the Meadowlands Pace, BC or Hambo.]
Never eh? Never you say. It pre dates your time there Robert so there's somewhat of a plausible 'out' for you, however if you ever get a chance to do so, watch the replay of 1 of the $700,000 2006 3yo Pacing Colts Breeders Crown Elims. at Woodbine. Pierce was responsible for knocking down almost the entire field AFTER the finish line, injuring a number of horses in the process, putting John Campbell in hospital for months with a badly broken leg & causing the death of promising colt, Scootin Delight. In my book that's at the very, very least...asleep at the wheel.
I mention that incident not to knock Pierce but rather to rebuff your comment that 'you'll 100% guarentee me that I'd never find him asleep at the wheel'...and to underline the fact that both horsemen drive inspired races and they drive bad ones.

[teecee]

To all who like to use that notorious word in their posts GUARANTEE.....watchit...!!!!!!

[strong persuader]

Stewards inquired into the reason for DASHER VC NZ (Chris Lewis) racing roughly in the back straight on the final occasion. It was established that as the field entered the back straight on the final occasion, Gary Hall Jnr (IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ) had moved to the three-wide line inside DASHER VC NZ, with Chris Lewis applying pressure to resist any further outward shift from Mr Hall. As IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ made ground, to the inside of DASHER VC NZ, wheel to wheel pressure was relieved resulting in there being slight contact to the hind leg of DASHER VC NZ, which raced roughly. Stewards took no action over the matter as they were satisfied that IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ had maintained its racing line and the pressure applied by Chris Lewis had been a significant factor in the incident.

From the Stewards' Report http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=GP200212

There you are, like it or lump it we have rules that allow pushing out, therefore we will continue to have examples of horses that make an early move three wide have their task made harder because drivers that couldn't/wouldn't go earlier will then shunt them out of the way when they want to go!

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Stewards inquired into the reason for DASHER VC NZ (Chris Lewis) racing roughly in the back straight on the final occasion. It was established that as the field entered the back straight on the final occasion, Gary Hall Jnr (IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ) had moved to the three-wide line inside DASHER VC NZ, with Chris Lewis applying pressure to resist any further outward shift from Mr Hall. As IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ made ground, to the inside of DASHER VC NZ, wheel to wheel pressure was relieved resulting in there being slight contact to the hind leg of DASHER VC NZ, which raced roughly. Stewards took no action over the matter as they were satisfied that IM THEMIGHTYQUINN NZ had maintained its racing line and the pressure applied by Chris Lewis had been a significant factor in the incident.

From the Stewards' Report http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=GP200212

There you are, like it or lump it we have rules that allow pushing out, therefore we will continue to have examples of horses that make an early move three wide have their task made harder because drivers that couldn't/wouldn't go earlier will then shunt them out of the way when they want to go!

Its 'prison rules' then, is it?

[Harold Parker]

[VVV]
HP writes [Having spent the better part of the last 3 years in the States I can 100% guarantee you, that you'd never find Pierce asleep at the wheel in a 8-10K Claimer let alone in a heat of the Meadowlands Pace, BC or Hambo.]
Never eh? Never you say. It pre dates your time there Robert so there's somewhat of a plausible 'out' for you, however if you ever get a chance to do so, watch the replay of 1 of the $700,000 2006 3yo Pacing Colts Breeders Crown Elims. at Woodbine. Pierce was responsible for knocking down almost the entire field AFTER the finish line, injuring a number of horses in the process, putting John Campbell in hospital for months with a badly broken leg & causing the death of promising colt, Scootin Delight. In my book that's at the very, very least...asleep at the wheel.
I mention that incident not to knock Pierce but rather to rebuff your comment that 'you'll 100% guarentee me that I'd never find him asleep at the wheel'...and to underline the fact that both horsemen drive inspired races and they drive bad ones.

That incident occurred when they were crossing the wire at high speed and for whatever reason the horse ducked in very sharply. His drive for a half dozen strides tops was borderline uncontrollable. Was it intentional ? of course not. It was a terrible incident but not premeditated.

How can you compare that to the drive on ITMQ ? Hall stayed in at the 800 with the intention of rolling out underneath Dasher VC 300m later putting his own drive and Chris Lewis in danger. It wasn't by chance or a freak accident it was intentional. A comparison using your example would be if Pierce was in the pocket and Campbell moved up to his outside, saw him too late and knocked him over at the Half.

The suggestion that if Dasher VC was going a little better he'd of held his line is total rubbish. If Lewis was a rat bag and drove Dasher VC as nonsensical as Hall drove ITMQ, both horses could quite possibly be buried in the back straight and out of the series. Hall drove a Ferrari F1 like a Datsun 180B at the Parramatta Speedway : )

[strong persuader]

Its 'prison rules' then, is it?
Sorry but if that is a question to me, you will have to clarify/expand a bit so that I can answer. :)

[The Form Student]

I think it is every man for himself!.......open season!........win at any cost!

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Sorry but if that is a question to me, you will have to clarify/expand a bit so that I can answer. :)
Sorry. Just a comment. Much like the comment above by TFS.

[aussiebreno]

That incident occurred when they were crossing the wire at high speed and for whatever reason the horse ducked in very sharply. His drive for a half dozen strides tops was borderline uncontrollable. Was it intentional ? of course not. It was a terrible incident but not premeditated.

How can you compare that to the drive on ITMQ ? Hall stayed in at the 800 with the intention of rolling out underneath Dasher VC 300m later putting his own drive and Chris Lewis in danger. It wasn't by chance or a freak accident it was intentional. A comparison using your example would be if Pierce was in the pocket and Campbell moved up to his outside, saw him too late and knocked him over at the Half.

The suggestion that if Dasher VC was going a little better he'd of held his line is total rubbish. If Lewis was a rat bag and drove Dasher VC as nonsensical as Hall drove ITMQ, both horses could quite possibly be buried in the back straight and out of the series. Hall drove a Ferrari F1 like a Datsun 180B at the Parramatta Speedway : )
Did Hall fall asleep or did he pre-meditate it? Can't be both ways.

[Harold Parker]

Did Hall fall asleep or did he pre-meditate it? Can't be both ways.

He was lazy and cocky. So I'm going $5 EW : )

[Triple V]

That incident occurred when they were crossing the wire at high speed and for whatever reason the horse ducked in very sharply. His drive for a half dozen strides tops was borderline uncontrollable. Was it intentional ? of course not. It was a terrible incident but not premeditated.

How can you compare that to the drive on ITMQ ?

[VVV] I didn't compare the drives. You're the one doing that.
Right from the outset with my first post to this thead you'll see that I tried to avoid any assessments of the drive. Go back and read it again for your own edification. You then posted that you could 100% guarentee me that Pierce would never be found to be asleep at the wheel.
The example I gave in reply clearly refuted that statement by way of showing that in that instance Pierce was indeed asleep at the wheel.

Hall stayed in at the 800 with the intention of rolling out underneath Dasher VC 300m later putting his own drive and Chris Lewis in danger. It wasn't by chance or a freak accident it was intentional.
[VVV] As I said from the outset, I haven't seen the race/that drive. Still haven't.
The in's & outs of that particular race are irrelevant to my earlier statement that Jnr's instinctual driving reminds me a lot of Ron Pierce.
There's no question that both are IMO at their best when they don't over-think their drives too much.

A comparison using your example would be if Pierce was in the pocket and Campbell moved up to his outside, saw him too late and knocked him over at the Half.
[VVV] If my filly had balls she'd be a colt. The point being...?

The suggestion that if Dasher VC was going a little better he'd of held his line is total rubbish. If Lewis was a rat bag and drove Dasher VC as nonsensical as Hall drove ITMQ, both horses could quite possibly be buried in the back straight and out of the series. Hall drove a Ferrari F1 like a Datsun 180B at the Parramatta Speedway : )
[VVV] Ding Ding Ding. HP...that's the reality check Bell. It's time to acknowledge that was YOUR suggestion, NOT mine. At no stage have I said anything of the sort. At no stage have I commented on the race in question. That is all in your head & contained within your bag of words which you seem so eager to put in my mouth. I merely replied to the title of the thread G. Hall Jnr's driving style. One race does not a style make.



Regards

Jaimie

[The Form Student]

Triple, thought you were going to give him a triple there, uppercut!........I will need a triple, if we continue to discuss this incident..........Bypass that is!....Chris Lewis will get pay back........soone or later! There is no excuse for this incident, if every driver did this there would be carnage out on the track......what if something was following Dasher VC, it could have been put on the ground..........did the stewards ask G Hall if he checked his rear vision mirror to see if anything was following DVC...........it all comes down to this, Hall was lucky that DVC only put in a few minor rough steps, and all is well for the final, which is what the people of WA want G Hall Jr & the very ITMQ.......the show must go on!

[Harold Parker]

Do you need help finding the replay. You do know we can access replays online now ? : )

"The example I gave in reply clearly refuted that statement by way of showing that in that instance Pierce was indeed asleep at the wheel."

Have you watched the replay ? It think not. Pierce is driving his horse to the wire and the horse snaps. No driver in the history of harness racing could of avoided that disaster.

I'm not getting into a pissing contest with a Super Mod. Only the sharpest tools have that honour bestowed upon them : )

[Triple V]

Jealousy is a curse Robert.
Jules even sent us all Super Moderator T-shirts and flowing red capes.
Look, up in the sky...is it a bird? Is it a plane?
NO...it's
http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/301554-49728-6.jpg
NEIL! :p

[broncobrad]

Race 3 Gloucester tonight in the home straight, if what Hall jnr does (pushes out like its a demolition derby) if that can be considered fair and sporting, I will eat my hat. That is nothing more than the act of a bully.

[p plater]

Race 3 Gloucester tonight in the home straight, if what Hall jnr does (pushes out like its a demolition derby) if that can be considered fair and sporting, I will eat my hat. That is nothing more than the act of a bully.

He must get time for that drive. You can't push out that hard, it's unsafe.

[murray green]

Race 3 Gloucester tonight in the home straight, if what Hall jnr does (pushes out like its a demolition derby) if that can be considered fair and sporting, I will eat my hat. That is nothing more than the act of a bully.

That was bad . Dirty driving . IMO .

[Danno]

Guys, he's entitled ( and to a certain extent expected) to try and get his horse out and give it a chance, the fact was the horse outside him was travelling just as strong/weak as his own and thats why he didn't succeed.
There was nothing dangerous or foul about it. Admitedly,it didn't LOOK pretty, but safe enough IMO.
If that was my horse and he didn't at least have a crack at getting out he'd be sacked, either on suspicion or for incompetence, he could take his pick.
Cheers,
Dan

[p plater]

Guys, he's entitled ( and to a certain extent expected) to try and get his horse out and give it a chance, the fact was the horse outside him was travelling just as strong/weak as his own and thats why he didn't succeed.
There was nothing dangerous or foul about it. Admitedly,it didn't LOOK pretty, but safe enough IMO.
If that was my horse and he didn't at least have a crack at getting out he'd be sacked, either on suspicion or for incompetence, he could take his pick.
Cheers,
Dan

Dan would you still be of that opinion if he brings someone down or lets say brings your horse down

[Danno]

Dan would you still be of that opinion if he brings someone down or lets say brings your horse down

No Bailey, thats the point I was making, it looked ugly but look closely, the horses were head to head, that is not going to bring any one down mate.

[Danno]

If you want to see a bad drive watch Has the Answers tonight, absolutely butchered!!!! now there is a drive deserving of time on the sidelines.!!!
The horse is not at his best over 2500m, so you cook him out of the gate, go to the front and keep on reeling off sub 30 quarters with NO PRESSURE from anywhere until the tank runs dry 500 metres out. Absolutely bloody disgraceful. And no guys I didn't back him, I'm just bewildered why someone would do that to a horse of such known quantites as Has The Answers.

[teecee]

If you want to see a bad drive watch Has the Answers tonight, absolutely butchered!!!! now there is a drive deserving of time on the sidelines.!!!
The horse is not at his best over 2500m, so you cook him out of the gate, go to the front and keep on reeling off sub 30 quarters with NO PRESSURE from anywhere until the tank runs dry 500 metres out. Absolutely bloody disgraceful. And no guys I didn't back him, I'm just bewildered why someone would do that to a horse of such known quantites as Has The Answers.
I guess he has ONE defence and IMO only ONE....It's how the horse is always driven / only way the horse races.
I don't normally comment directly on specific drive but yes a real doozie.!!!!!

[Lenem]

I think you should be having a shot at the trainer who consistently gives these instructions,that said,I think it's his perogative even if to the rest of the world they appear ridiculous.

[mightymo]

See below. Wonder if the stewards will do as they warned...

Late report from inquiry conducted at Gloucester Park Friday 3 February 2012.
Stewards concluded an inquiry into the tactics adopted by Kyle Harper (HAS THE ANSWERS) in the early and middle stages of Race 8 the Yes Loans Fremantle Pacing MS Cup (2906m) in particular his reason for after gaining the lead in the early stages, not taking the opportunity to obtain a trailing position behind the favoured MR FEELGOOD USA early or DASHER VC NZ in the middle stages. He explained that he had been instructed to retain the lead despite expressing his opinion to Trainer Tony Svilicich that he would be better taking a trailing position rather than be pressured.
Mr Svilicich confirmed the instructions issued and added that he was reluctant to have the gelding driven from a trailing position as it had a tendency to pull when covered. When questioned on the fact that the gelding had won from a trailing position the previous week when it had appeared to race tractably, he explained that the gelding had been prepared differently for that event after drawing the back line. When drawn the front it was always his intention to make use of the gelding’s early speed to endeavour to lead which then made it difficult for it to be restrained to a trailing position.
Stewards advised Mr Svilicich that in their opinion the gelding, which had previously demonstrated that it was not suited to racing over longer distances when pressured, should be driven differently in such events. In future, if they were of the opinion that he had issued unrealistic instructions to a driver, action would be taken against his licence.

[Lenem]

Stewards dictating tactics? I don't think so !

[teecee]

Stewards dictating tactics? I don't think so !
Stewards are well within their authority to issue such a warning. they have done it many times. If they believe that the driver is not giving the horse the best chance in a race they can take direct action against the driver.
If they determine that the trainer's instructions are contrary to giving the horse the best chance ina race they can act against the trainer.

[Lenem]

Where do you stop ? How many times (a meeting) have you said to yourself "driver X should have done this or shouldn't have done that ?" I think it's totally unreasonable for anyone other than connections to decide how a horse should be driven.

[aussiebreno]

Where do you stop ? How many times (a meeting) have you said to yourself "driver X should have done this or shouldn't have done that ?" I think it's totally unreasonable for anyone other than connections to decide how a horse should be driven.
Yeah precisely this. I mean if a trainer has two stablemates in the race one can be driven however they like to set it up for the other. Trainers decision.

*sarcasm*

[Lenem]

Maybe the Chief Steward should issue a set of instructions before each race.These could even be published alongside the form guide.Surely you are not suggesting that "team driving" actaually goes on ?
(more sarcasm)

[Danno]

Hey Guys, there is a rule that states the driver must give his horse every chance......there is NOT a rule that says the driver must obey driving instructions.
The driver should be in strife with the stipes, and maybe the trainer, but definitley the driver , if he hasn't got the stuff to tell the trainer he won't butcher it, then don't drive it, it's not compulsory to accept a drive!
To me, this is why you have drivers...for people who can't do it themselves.

[The Form Student]

One thing for sure......Has The Answers is a great horse!......he gets bottomed out from the start more often than not.......leads from any gate...this would normally take its toll over time to be able to back-up run after run..........A month or so ago I thought the horse was flat and then he came out and won the Consolation of the WA Pacing Cup over 2500....but he had a nice 32 quarter at the beginning of the last mile and sprinted home in 56.8........I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT "BLIND HARRY" WOULD KNOW YOU GIVE YOUR HORSE AS EASY A RUN AS POSSIBLE WHEN LEADING.....ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU BURN OUT OF THE GATE........EVEN SMOKEN UP DOESN'T EMPTY THE TANK UNLESS HE HAS TOO!........LAST NIGHT WAS LIKE HE WAS THE PACESETTER IN A WORLD RECORD ATTEMPT.........HE BROKE 30 FOR HIS FIRST 2 QUARTERS OF THE MILE, ONLY SMOKEN UP BROKE A QUARTER IN LESS THAN 30 OF ALL THE HEATS LAST NIGHT.......AFTER THE WARNING GIVEN A COUPLE OF WEEKS BY THE STEWARDS, PRIOR TO LAST NIGHT RACE ABOUT DRIVING THIS WAY......WHAT ARE THE STEWARDS GOING TO DO???????????? LET'S WAIT FOR THE STEWARDS REPORT, UNLESS SOMEONE HAS ALREADY HEARD!!!!!!!
THE TRAINER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TACTICS GIVEN TO HIS DRIVER, UNLESS HE SAYS I'LL LEAVE IT TO YOU......WHAT'S THE POINT!!!

[Harold Parker]

I was at Gloucester Park last night. You guys querying the Has The Answers drive are missing the obvious. A few of us were talking about it before the race and loaded up on Mr Feelgood, saved on Cromac Johnny and hit the Quinella. Missed the Tri : (

Mysta Magical Mach was on the precipice on gaining a start "IF" Dasher VC punctured. Who trains MMM and HTA ? It was a carbon copy of the previous clash where they "hooked up". I was surprised Lewis fell for it but if you'd heard the roasting he copped from the locals after his drive on Crombie, I guess he had no choice.

A rough couple of days for A C Lewis.

[Mighty Atom]

I was at Gloucester Park last night. You guys querying the Has The Answers drive are missing the obvious. A few of us were talking about it before the race and loaded up on Mr Feelgood, saved on Cromac Johnny and hit the Quinella. Missed the Tri : (

Mysta Magical Mach was on the precipice on gaining a start "IF" Dasher VC punctured. Who trains MMM and HTA ? It was a carbon copy of the previous clash where they "hooked up". I was surprised Lewis fell for it but if you'd heard the roasting he copped from the locals after his drive on Crombie, I guess he had no choice.

A rough couple of days for A C Lewis.

Bewildering drive from C.Lewis; Crombie went to the line full of running. Maybe he wanted to avoid a speed duel with AR with the final next week. Certainly had a fairly easy run and if there was a real smoky for the final Crombie could be the one.

[broncobrad]

Guys, he's entitled ( and to a certain extent expected) to try and get his horse out and give it a chance, the fact was the horse outside him was travelling just as strong/weak as his own and thats why he didn't succeed.
There was nothing dangerous or foul about it. Admitedly,it didn't LOOK pretty, but safe enough IMO.
If that was my horse and he didn't at least have a crack at getting out he'd be sacked, either on suspicion or for incompetence, he could take his pick.
Cheers,
Dan

Gday Dan, My internets playing up so just quickly. His drive is without doubt an act of selfish, bullying that displays no respect for his rivals.

Go back to Menangle 28/1 Race 7 and watch Mitch Reese try to get off the pegs. Unsuccessful with his jostling he has to wait until the run comes. His drive was patient, competitive and sporting. He showed respect for his rivals. One bloke applies reasonable pressure, the other bloke thinks its Ok to drive straight into your rival after hooking out with the right rein.

[Danno]

Gday Dan, My internets playing up so just quickly. His drive is without doubt an act of selfish, bullying that displays no respect for his rivals.

Go back to Menangle 28/1 Race 7 and watch Mitch Reese try to get off the pegs. Unsuccessful with his jostling he has to wait until the run comes. His drive was patient, competitive and sporting. He showed respect for his rivals. One bloke applies reasonable pressure, the other bloke thinks its Ok to drive straight into your rival after hooking out with the right rein.

G'day Brad,
like everyone else mate you're entitled to your opinion. I think, as I said, it was ugly but not dangerous. I have served that up and copped it plenty of times from people who know how to do it safely with no problems, it's when you get idiots trying it and don't know when and where it's unsafe that you run into problems and someone ends up on the deck.
as i've stated earlier I'm neither a fan nor a detractor of GH Jnr, but that's twice in the last couple of weeks we've seen him trying to push clear and so far he's displayed in my opinion he knows how to do it safely, many do not.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS you'll have me by the short and curlies if he decks someone pushing out...stay tuned.LOL.

[teecee]

Hey Dan
It seems to me that you know from experience. Obviously there is a push out rule in Oz. Apparently in the last 600 metres is that right. Here it is last 1000metres.
Is that right. Can you tell me do you have an easing down rule Y/n...?
Are these rules australia wide or are your rules state only???

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

G'day Brad,
like everyone else mate you're entitled to your opinion. I think, as I said, it was ugly but not dangerous. I have served that up and copped it plenty of times from people who know how to do it safely with no problems, it's when you get idiots trying it and don't know when and where it's unsafe that you run into problems and someone ends up on the deck.
as i've stated earlier I'm neither a fan nor a detractor of GH Jnr, but that's twice in the last couple of weeks we've seen him trying to push clear and so far he's displayed in my opinion he knows how to do it safely, many do not.

Cheers,
Dan.

PS you'll have me by the short and curlies if he decks someone pushing out...stay tuned.LOL.
Just watched that race. Firstly, wasn't it great to see Bill Horns and Village Kids colours going around? Secondly . G. Hall Jnr, in my opinion is teflon coated.

[Danno]

Hey Dan
It seems to me that you know from experience. Obviously there is a push out rule in Oz. Apparently in the last 600 metres is that right. Here it is last 1000metres.
Is that right. Can you tell me do you have an easing down rule Y/n...?
Are these rules australia wide or are your rules state only???

G'day Tony,
we've had a push out rule in NSW for over twenty years. it started out being allowed in the last lap and a quarter ( entering the home straight with one lap to go regardless of the circumference of the track) and a few years ago they changed it to a candy pole marker typically situated in the back straight usually about 600m out. As far as i know that rule applies in all states and an "ease out rule' other than this one does not exist.

I have only ever been in the game as a hobby but started race driving as a kid in 1975, my Dad taught me how to push out safely long before I got to the trials at age sixteen. he also taught me a few other things and during my time I've probably driven in about 1000 races and never brought anyone else down, but I've been brought down by a few dickheads and a couple of big names among them, so yeah I reckon I've got some idea on the subject.

Cheers,
Dan

[broncobrad]

Hey Dan

Would just be content with an interference free final that allows the top 4 every chance without any excuses. I've got no designs of applying any undue torque to your nether region.

Cheers

[spider]

Have seen many changes over the years but the current push out or ease out rules are simple
There are 2 markers on all WA tracks that come into play, one entering the hom straight for the bell and one 600mtr from the end of the race
Entering the straight for the bell and until the 600mtr marker a driver can move from the fence to the 2 wide line pushing the horse on his out side 3 wide but cannot move from the 2 wide line to the 3 wide line forcing another runner wider.
At the 600 marker onwards you can move from any line forcing another runner wider providing this is done safely.
In Hall jnr case with Dasher VC Lewis tried to hold ITMQ down when his horse wasn't forward enough to do so
In Butts case on Raglan he was already in the 2 wide line at the first marker so was't able to force a runner 4 deep without suspension and from the 600 marker was only ever in a position to drop his own horse on the track if he attempted to push out
If you want a clear look of how this rule works coming into the straight have a look at Butts drive on Hostile Grins in race 7 Fri night.
He moves from the 2 wide line to the 3 wide line while another runner on his outside had its legs up past his wheel.
This resulted in the horse on his outside nearly being dropped on the track.
If he wanted to move 3 wide it should have happened before he had a runner on his outside, will be interesting to read the stewards report for to me he should get time

[teecee]

All that glitters is not necessarily gold.
It seems that what you think you saw is not necessarily what really happened.
The stewards on this ocassion don't appear to have seen it the way you saw it.

The same appears to be so for what people thought they saw in the Dasher VC / ITMQ situation.

[Greg Hando]

I think why some think it was bad is that G halls horse was bigger and got his head over the neck of the outside horse and made it look worse than it was.

[Danno]

I think why some think it was bad is that G halls horse was bigger and got his head over the neck of the outside horse and made it look worse than it was.

I reckon your on the money there Greg, it always grabs people's attention when one horse is taller than the other and their necks are crossing..bit of a "Ben Hur" look about it eh?

[The Form Student]

I reckon your on the money there Greg, it always grabs people's attention when one horse is taller than the other and their necks are crossing..bit of a "Ben Hur" look about it eh?

Why don't we bring in gigs like they use in the Ben Hur movie, where the driver stands up to drive in an enclosed "gig", there would be no problem then with the push out rule or cutting other drivers off etc!

[Danno]

Why don't we bring in gigs like they use in the Ben Hur movie, where the driver stands up to drive in an enclosed "gig", there would be no problem then with the push out rule or cutting other drivers off etc!

While we're at it get the spikes out the side to take out any challengers too!! and "cutting other drivers off" would take on new meaning and be really spectacular!!!
Geez wouldn't the ambo's earn their wages!!
We could have special points rules too so if you took out X number of horses/drivers you got a ten second advantage!!

Good thinking Steve!

[The Form Student]

While we're at it get the spikes out the side to take out any challengers too!! and "cutting other drivers off" would take on new meaning and be really spectacular!!!
Geez wouldn't the ambo's earn their wages!!
We could have special points rules too so if you took out X number of horses/drivers you got a ten second advantage!!

Good thinking Steve!

An extra 10 points if you turn around and chop up the clerk of the courses horse when there is a spill! Plus 1000 points if you take out the mobiles tyres!!!!

[Danno]

An extra 10 points if you turn around and chop up the clerk of the courses horse when there is a spill! Plus 1000 points if you take out the mobiles tyres!!!!

Geez I'd hate the mobile drivers job!! you wouldn't get them working for 100 bucks,two beers and a steak sandwich thats for sure!!

[The Form Student]

Geez I'd hate the mobile drivers job!! you wouldn't get them working for 100 bucks,two beers and a steak sandwich thats for sure!!

You have to be going quick to catch the mobile........the other good thing about these gigs would be that you wouldn't have all the drivers heads going side to side to see what is going on up front, you'd be looking over them...........unless you were Jimmy Douglas,you would need a lower & see-through front panel.......look the designs will probably take a bit of time to perfect!

[Danno]

You have to be going quick to catch the mobile........the other good thing about these gigs would be that you wouldn't have all the drivers heads going side to side to see what is going on up front, you'd be looking over them...........unless you were Jimmy Douglas,you would need a lower & see-through front panel.......look the designs will probably take a bit of time to perfect!

LMAO! maybe a periscope type arrangement would be the go! It would need to be fairly sturdy and not shake around too much as other wise that would defeat the purpose and JD 's head might start shaking around to compensate?

[The Form Student]

LMAO! maybe a periscope type arrangement would be the go! It would need to be fairly sturdy and not shake around too much as other wise that would defeat the purpose and JD 's head might start shaking around to compensate?

Unknown to everybody HRNSW has been running trials of these gigs after the normal trials when most people have gone home.....luckily a friend of mine got this footage on his mobile phone and sent it me!
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ben+hur&docid=1451334894562&mid=3097BD0B56E416F6F9463097BD0B56E416F6F946&FORM=VIRE4

[Danno]

Unknown to everybody HRNSW has been running trials of these gigs after the normal trials when most people have gone home.....luckily a friend of mine got this footage on his mobile phone and sent it me!
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ben+hur&docid=1451334894562&mid=3097BD0B56E416F6F9463097BD0B56E416F6F946&FORM=VIRE4

They must have been run a fair while ago....the steward in the purple cape is a dead ringer for a former NSW head honcho...he's got that same menacing "gotcha" look in his eyes too!

[The Form Student]

They must have been run a fair while ago....the steward in the purple cape is a dead ringer for a former NSW head honcho...he's got that same menacing "gotcha" look in his eyes too!

Luke McCarthy won't have a problem with all his horses, as you can start 4 horses with the 1 driver!

[broncobrad]

Now you blokes know when Gary Hall gets his inspiration from. His favourite movie is Ben Hur and is idol is Chuck Heston.

And that little manouvre in the third last Friday night is straight from the screenplay.

[The Form Student]

Now you blokes know when Gary Hall gets his inspiration from. His favourite movie is Ben Hur and is idol is Chuck Heston.

And that little manouvre in the third last Friday night is straight from the screenplay.

Looks like Brad has woken up..........I've been trying to provide the entertainment tonight......looks like all the "moderators" are having the night off.........we could put some pretty controversial stuff on this site at the moment!

[Danno]

Luke McCarthy won't have a problem with all his horses, as you can start 4 horses with the 1 driver!

No! I won't say that!....and I won't say that either!...and...no stuff it I won't say that as well. Yeah your right Steve.

[broncobrad]

Actually just going to bed, but have fun fellas

[Danno]

Now you blokes know when Gary Hall gets his inspiration from. His favourite movie is Ben Hur and is idol is Chuck Heston.

And that little manouvre in the third last Friday night is straight from the screenplay.

a mere scratch Bradley, a mere scratch

[spider]

I want some of the shit you guys are on, this bloody hilarious

[The Form Student]

Also heard HRNSW are thinking of bringing back inside running rails to all tracks..........seems they have got a special deal from Leggo!

[The Form Student]

It is saying the viewing audience at the moment is 114, this is much higher than when teecee or Triple are on line.......folks tell all you friends to get on line so we can break the ratings record...........or you could send us some material to work with! We could answer any questions you may have........any subject!

[The Form Student]

Now were up to 117, this is out of control......or someone has called up the moderators (Big Brother)

[The Form Student]

audience is dropping, now 111.......looks like the show is over for tonight................Goodnight Brad,Dan,Tiny a Luke!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Form Student]

Actually just going to bed, but have fun fellas

Don't forget Brad you have 4 catheters to change in the morning!

[Triple V]

You seem have gone all quiet there HP. I trust you are not feeling poorly. :rolleyes:

Have you seen two better drives than Jrn's efforts with Gracias Para Nada (sp?) and of course, Imthemightyquinn. Outstanding.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Yes. Top drive. Going to the inside of Smoken Up instead of to the outside at the 600-700 mark ???,won him the race.

[Danno]

It' a good drive whenever you get the money, but Jesus H Christ what about the horse?? I thought Jnr had left it too late but didn't he gather them in around the home turn??, out 4 wide??? I'd love to know what he ran that furlong in! No horse I've seen has had the right or temerity to do what ITMQ did there, gobsmackingly sensational.

[Don Corleone]

Nice drive. Jr had ice in the veins and the horse power.
Having not watched a lot of racing from WA until this carnival, I must say I have been very impressed with the young guy Woodley. He certainly has the head and the hands to get his charges around.

[strong persuader]

Now you blokes know when Gary Hall gets his inspiration from. His favourite movie is Ben Hur and is idol is Chuck Heston.

And that little manouvre in the third last Friday night is straight from the screenplay.

Sorry to have missed the fun :) But there isn't any need to look too far for your improved sulky design! Jim Walsh has already done the work for you :)
http://www.rjwalsh.com.au/models.htm#apollo

[Danno]

Sorry to have missed the fun :) But there isn't any need to look too far for your improved sulky design! Jim Walsh has already done the work for you :)
http://www.rjwalsh.com.au/models.htm#apollo

How much extra for the periscope and wheel spikes Phil??

[broncobrad]

I love the look of the Regal Hittite Special and to think it has already established a world record at Young! Could you imagine 8 of these going around at Menangle with only the most ambitious of drivers being considered for selection to compete over two miles? It could become the REAL CHARIOTS OF FIRE.

Seriously though, credit where credits due, Hall Jnr deserves every plaudit for remaining ice cool to the metre and let the horse show us what he really is capable of in our premier event. Like every one else, I was thinking its time to go, its time to go, its really time to go...and then when you think its too late he lets him go. BANG! To the harness racing tragics it was a much louder and more pleasant sounding BOOM heard all over Oz & NZ than the crap we have had to endure for the last six months.

Disappointed in SU galloping (apart from the hip pocket pain) because we will never know what may have happened and the opportunitys for both animals to compete against each other whilst still at the top of their game are fast running out.

Loved the series and love the competitive driving that small tracks engender. Well done Western Australia. The junior driving championship has also been absorbing and the girls have been sticking it to the boys.

[The Form Student]

You seem have gone all quiet there HP. I trust you are not feeling poorly. :rolleyes:

Have you seen two better drives than Jrn's efforts with Gracias Para Nada (sp?) and of course, Imthemightyquinn. Outstanding.

His drive on ITMQ was disgraceful...........why would you let a horse that has been tailed off 50 metres go around you with a lap to go......didn't he see how much ground SU lost.....the week before he took off at the 1000 metre mark and cruised around hard held!.........then he decided to trail SU at the bell, until he finally realised it was gone! Give me a break, I hope his old man tells him not to do that again!

[spider]

His drive on ITMQ was disgraceful...........why would you let a horse that has been tailed off 50 metres go around you with a lap to go......didn't he see how much ground SU lost.....the week before he took off at the 1000 metre mark and cruised around hard held!.........then he decided to trail SU at the bell, until he finally realised it was gone! Give me a break, I hope his old man tells him not to do that again!

What a joke, an ice cool drive wins a $1mil race which happens to be an inter and that's the best you've got
Now I won't attempt to argue with your kind of intelligence but there is a bloke with a little bit of it that watched the same race

That just doesn't happen in races . . . and it doesn't happen in Inter Dominions," master horseman Brian Hancock said of Im Themightyquinn's breathtaking last-to-first win at Gloucester Park on Friday night.

His sheer speed is amazing. You win nine out of 10 race with that speed," Hancock said.

And he was full of compliments for the Hazelmere father-and-son team who executed the win.
"They worked out how they would do it and said nothing," Hancock said.

"They knew they had the best horse but you still have to win it. The kid (Gary Jr) outsmarted them and he seemed to be the only person who didn't put pressure on himself," he said.

[The Form Student]

What a joke, an ice cool drive wins a $1mil race which happens to be an inter and that's the best you've got
Now I won't attempt to argue with your kind of intelligence but there is a bloke with a little bit of it that watched the same race

That just doesn't happen in races . . . and it doesn't happen in Inter Dominions," master horseman Brian Hancock said of Im Themightyquinn's breathtaking last-to-first win at Gloucester Park on Friday night.

His sheer speed is amazing. You win nine out of 10 race with that speed," Hancock said.

And he was full of compliments for the Hazelmere father-and-son team who executed the win.
"They worked out how they would do it and said nothing," Hancock said.

"They knew they had the best horse but you still have to win it. The kid (Gary Jr) outsmarted them and he seemed to be the only person who didn't put pressure on himself," he said.

I have tipped ITMQ all the way through the ID heats, I posted a market on this site that had ITMQ odds on favourite before he became tomato sauce odds anywhere else..........My market also had MF at 8/1.........I thought the ITMQ was a certainty with any luck in running......he had 20 metres on any othe runner (based on his heat runs)......Please explain to me why he let a horse that had been tailed off 50 metres during running take off in front of you???? Then you take a trail on him, and realise 150 metres you have made a mistake..........JNR should have taken off in front of SU, maybe another runner may have come out and given him a trail up to the leader and he would have won by 20 metres with his exhilarating speed!! The race was not run at a fast tempo, it was time to get on your way...........the fact is he still won the race, which shows how much the horse had on the field.............
"The kid (Gary Jr) outsmarted them and he seemed to be the only person who didn't put pressure on himself," he said...............Really?????......he sat last in a slowly run race.......let a horse go that had been tailed off..........pulled out 5 wide at the 450 metre mark and got home by 1.4 metres........lucky the horse had a lap on them!........I would say that was a possible recipe for defeat........Thankfully, JNR was on such a great horse!......"Hail the Mighty King"
The fact that you have the best horse does not always make you the winner........If you remember.............2ND DECEMBER, 2011, ITMQ, (driven by N R Jack) sat close to the leaders at Melton in a FFA, and was beaten by Melpark Major, when they dawdled upfront and sprinted home......even though ITMQ ran fantastic times himself!
To claim a great drive by JNR we beg to differ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spider]

I have tipped ITMQ all the way through the ID heats, I posted a market on this site that had ITMQ odds on favourite before he became tomato sauce odds anywhere else..........My market also had MF at 8/1.........I thought the ITMQ was a certainty with any luck in running......he had 20 metres on any othe runner (based on his heat runs)......Please explain to me why he let a horse that had been tailed off 50 metres during running take off in front of you???? Then you take a trail on him, and realise 150 metres you have made a mistake..........JNR should have taken off in front of SU, maybe another runner may have come out and given him a trail up to the leader and he would have won by 20 metres with his exhilarating speed!! The race was not run at a fast tempo, it was time to get on your way...........the fact is he still won the race, which shows how much the horse had on the field.............
"The kid (Gary Jr) outsmarted them and he seemed to be the only person who didn't put pressure on himself," he said...............Really?????......he sat last in a slowly run race.......let a horse go that had been tailed off..........pulled out 5 wide at the 450 metre mark and got home by 1.4 metres........lucky the horse had a lap on them!........I would say that was a possible recipe for defeat........Thankfully, JNR was on such a great horse!......"Hail the Mighty King"
The fact that you have the best horse does not always make you the winner........If you remember.............2ND DECEMBER, 2011, ITMQ, (driven by N R Jack) sat close to the leaders at Melton in a FFA, and was beaten by Melpark Major, when they dawdled upfront and sprinted home......even though ITMQ ran fantastic times himself!
To claim a great drive by JNR we beg to differ!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeez I'm glad I didn't take you on in a debate, your abiltiy to dismiss a master speaks volumes of your experience in all things driving
And wow! and your skill to see everything that didn't happen is amazing

[The Form Student]

Jeez I'm glad I didn't take you on in a debate, your abiltiy to dismiss a master speaks volumes of your experience in all things driving
And wow! and your skill to see everything that didn't happen is amazing

I did not dismiss a master, I think BPH spoke more about ITMQ's ability than anything else........to have such sheer speed and acceleration is what makes a great horse, and he appreciated that in ITMQ, because his training methods were always to develop the speed in his horses and hopefully, they would develop toughness with maturity.......I don't know what he used to think of old Bundanoon as it was more of a stayer than a sprinter! BPH also said "His sheer speed is amazing. You win nine out of 10 race with that speed," .....that's the point not 10/10 but 9/10!
At the time of the race, BPH may not have known the sectionals that were being run upfront, but they were not fast, but the horse overcome the obstacles and ITMQ won the race........thank goodness!..............you mention about my skill to see everything that didn't happen is amazing!...........please let me know where my observation of the race is not accurate.......as I pride myself on accuracy more than anything else, BPH maybe one of the greatest drivers of all time, but he doesn't spend the time doing the form analysis of horses that I do!...........I maybe a little harsh in my comments, but I don't think so, as SNR & JNR both indicated they had a leg on the field.............JNR did not drive that way.........he may have been a little too cute.......it could have cost him the race!.......I still believe my analysis of the race is correct!!!!!!!!!!!

[Harold Parker]

You seem have gone all quiet there HP. I trust you are not feeling poorly. :rolleyes:

Have you seen two better drives than Jrn's efforts with Gracias Para Nada (sp?) and of course, Imthemightyquinn. Outstanding.

Not quite, I was on Gracia Para Nada. I couldn't believe the odds he got out too.

Quite a few weeks before the Inters kicked off I started a thread asking if guys were supporting anything at longers odds. In it, I made the case for Lombo Navigator initially @ 151 & 38.5 then 126 & 31.

You'll also find numerous posts from last week where I on a few occasions posted that I'd stepped in with further support for Lombo Navigator @ 101 & 16.

I made three trips to Perth for the series. Navigator's 3rd covered it tenfold +.

I caught the red eye back and headed out to Menangle on Saturday night. Atmosphere wise from the Penthouse to the Outhouse : )

[Triple V]

Good horse. Beautifully handled throughout the Series.
I was hoping for good things to happen for Lombo Navigator, mostly because of a tenuous connection to Andrew De Campo. He is friends with some friends of ours in WA & during the Tassie ID Carnival of a few years back now Andrew drove and duly won very well with a then 3yo that we had. A nicer fella you'd be pretty hard pressed to find. He and his driver did a great job I thought.

[Harold Parker]

Good horse. Beautifully handled throughout the Series.
I was hoping for good things to happen for Lombo Navigator, mostly because of a tenuous connection to Andrew De Campo. He is friends with some friends of ours in WA & during the Tassie ID Carnival of a few years back now Andrew drove and duly won very well with a then 3yo that we had. A nicer fella you'd be pretty hard pressed to find. He and his driver did a great job I thought.

A great training performance after a shocker on night one and a fantastic drive, clean too. He only needed a neck more to his outside and he would of had sufficient room to force MMM a further horse wider and he was clear at the 400. The difference between winning comfortably and a luckless 3rd. A great result though.

I got to get a look at the stewards report. The interference at turn one was severe. The Justice boys got their tactics completely wrong, a real choke job IMO. It took care of Mr Feelgood, he could easily of hit the deck. I thought he looked a little worse for wear after the race. That might be it for him ?

Will Justice get any time for it ?

[Harold Parker]

MR FEELGOOD (John McCarthy) – Tightened, contacted and broke gait racing towards the back straight on the first occasion. A post race veterinary examination revealed the horse to have minor lacerations to the off fore leg and minor filling to the off hind leg. Acting on veterinary advice no action was taken.

SMOKEN UP (John Justice ) – Racing towards the back straight on the first occasion contacted the sulky with its off hind leg. As a result the gelding hung inwards, despite the efforts of its driver, checking another runner before breaking gait.

[Harold Parker]

MR FEELGOOD (John McCarthy) – Tightened, contacted and broke gait racing towards the back straight on the first occasion. A post race veterinary examination revealed the horse to have minor lacerations to the off fore leg and minor filling to the off hind leg. Acting on veterinary advice no action was taken.

SMOKEN UP (John Justice ) – Racing towards the back straight on the first occasion contacted the sulky with its off hind leg. As a result the gelding hung inwards, despite the efforts of its driver, checking another runner before breaking gait.

Looks like the horse got the blame for the choke job. The next time I get a traffic violation I'll try and blame it on the light going red before I wanted it to : )

[spider]

I did not dismiss a master, I think BPH spoke more about ITMQ's ability than anything else........to have such sheer speed and acceleration is what makes a great horse, and he appreciated that in ITMQ, because his training methods were always to develop the speed in his horses and hopefully, they would develop toughness with maturity.......I don't know what he used to think of old Bundanoon as it was more of a stayer than a sprinter! BPH also said "His sheer speed is amazing. You win nine out of 10 race with that speed," .....that's the point not 10/10 but 9/10!
At the time of the race, BPH may not have known the sectionals that were being run upfront, but they were not fast, but the horse overcome the obstacles and ITMQ won the race........thank goodness!..............you mention about my skill to see everything that didn't happen is amazing!...........please let me know where my observation of the race is not accurate.......as I pride myself on accuracy more than anything else, BPH maybe one of the greatest drivers of all time, but he doesn't spend the time doing the form analysis of horses that I do!...........I maybe a little harsh in my comments, but I don't think so, as SNR & JNR both indicated they had a leg on the field.............JNR did not drive that way.........he may have been a little too cute.......it could have cost him the race!.......I still believe my analysis of the race is correct!!!!!!!!!!!

Your expertise is still amazes me
Now it's time to be real, your posts already tell me that you are a lounge chair legend
BHP has sat where Hall jnr has sat thousands of times yet you have the audacity to question his analysis compared to yours
You crawl your way through a dictionary of words and metres of paragraphs just to show what an expert you really are.
The great man (who incidentally has discarded more knowledge on driving than you could ever imagine) can asess or analize this race in the blink of an eye uses just one line.
" The kid outsmarted them "
Don't try and tell me he didn't see all the irrelevant shit you try and use to back up a ridiculous staement

[The Form Student]

Your expertise is still amazes me
Now it's time to be real, your posts already tell me that you are a lounge chair legend
BHP has sat where Hall jnr has sat thousands of times yet you have the audacity to question his analysis compared to yours
You crawl your way through a dictionary of words and metres of paragraphs just to show what an expert you really are.
The great man (who incidentally has discarded more knowledge on driving than you could ever imagine) can asess or analize this race in the blink of an eye uses just one line.
" The kid outsmarted them "
Don't try and tell me he didn't see all the irrelevant shit you try and use to back up a ridiculous staement

Do you think BPH would say that was a lucky drive, or very ordinary drive, or lucky he was driving a horse which had a lap on them........No way, he would be criticised from here to kingdom come!
Please tell me how the kid outsmarted them...........he drew barrier 7, eased at the start, was last, except for SU who galloped at the first turn, and then was tailed off by over 50 metres, at least the kid was last on the outside!.......SU catches the field with 1000 meteres to go, and takes off immediately......the kid tries to follow him, but realises a 100 metres later that SU is gonski......so he pulls back in.........he did wait a bit longer before taking off and then was pushed off the track at the 400 metre mark by other horses making their runs........lucky ITMQ has such brilliant speed and was able to get around the other horses and take the lead into the straight and win!.......
In his last couple of drives on ITMQ, the kid has been criticised for pushing other runners out of the way to make his run, or taking off 1000- metres from home!
For my mental stability, please tell me how he outsmarted them????????
To be honest I keep repeating myself........there is nothing more to say about the driver or the race etc......except that the best horse won, and that's all that counts!

[spider]

Do you think BPH would say that was a lucky drive, or very ordinary drive, or lucky he was driving a horse which had a lap on them........No way, he would be criticised from here to kingdom come!
Please tell me how the kid outsmarted them...........he drew barrier 7, eased at the start, was last, except for SU who galloped at the first turn, and then was tailed off by over 50 metres, at least the kid was last on the outside!.......SU catches the field with 1000 meteres to go, and takes off immediately......the kid tries to follow him, but realises a 100 metres later that SU is gonski......so he pulls back in.........he did wait a bit longer before taking off and then was pushed off the track at the 400 metre mark by other horses making their runs........lucky ITMQ has such brilliant speed and was able to get around the other horses and take the lead into the straight and win!.......
In his last couple of drives on ITMQ, the kid has been criticised for pushing other runners out of the way to make his run, or taking off 1000- metres from home!
For my mental stability, please tell me how he outsmarted them????????
To be honest I keep repeating myself........there is nothing more to say about the driver or the race etc......except that the best horse won, and that's all that counts!

Whoa steady there Formy just be careful if that lounge chair jumps a shadow you'll be down in a screamin heap while your still crawlin through that dictionary
"The kid outsmarted them" your barking up the wrong tree, lay some of your logic on BPH as your scrabble of words clearly shows him to be a fool
For your mental stability, I'm not sure, maybe ask someone who cares

[The Form Student]

Whoa steady there Formy just be careful if that lounge chair jumps a shadow you'll be down in a screamin heap while your still crawlin through that dictionary
"The kid outsmarted them" your barking up the wrong tree, lay some of your logic on BPH as your scrabble of words clearly shows him to be a fool
For your mental stability, I'm not sure, maybe ask someone who cares

OK, let's get down to your acceptance of the situation, "the kid won the race, so therefore, he outsmarted them".........I am happy with that!.........If you fail to accept that I may have another reasonable alternative view of the circumstances........then you fail to consider their may just be another acceptable way to look at things!
I am not running the idea that BPH is a fool, you put those words in my mouth........however, I would strongly argue that he outsmarted the other drivers! In fact, I would nearly go as far as to say, that if they put you in ITMQ's sulky with a blindfold on and pointed you in the right direction, you would have been the 2012 ID winning driver!
When you put your hard earned money on a horse, you are entitled to an opinion!.........I may be a "lounge lizard" gambling on harness racing as you imply.........But! I put my judgement on the line everyday, and have done my research......and have my own opinion!

[spider]

OK, let's get down to your acceptance of the situation, "the kid won the race, so therefore, he outsmarted them".........I am happy with that!.........If you fail to accept that I may have another reasonable alternative view of the circumstances........then you fail to consider their may just be another acceptable way to look at things!
I am not running the idea that BPH is a fool, you put those words in my mouth........however, I would strongly argue that he outsmarted the other drivers! In fact, I would nearly go as far as to say, that if they put you in ITMQ's sulky with a blindfold on and pointed you in the right direction, you would have been the 2012 ID winning driver!
When you put your hard earned money on a horse, you are entitled to an opinion!.........I may be a "lounge lizard" gambling on harness racing as you imply.........But! I put my judgement on the line everyday, and have done my research......and have my own opinion!

Cheers formy I'll check the inter 2012 results in a few years time and see if anything has changed
I don't believe any form anaylist would ever have any chance of understanding BPH statement, simply because until you have lived it you can only imagine it
Best of luck with your punting, stay on hall jnr and you'll back a lot of winners LOL

[eliteblood]

This discussion has probably had its time but I half agree with Steve. IMO ITMQ didn't win because of any sensational drive by Jnr. He won because he was a few lengths superior to any other horse in the race.
I think it was a good drive and he made all the right decisions but I can't see where he outsmarted anyone.

[The Form Student]

This discussion has probably had its time but I half agree with Steve. IMO ITMQ didn't win because of any sensational drive by Jnr. He won because he was a few lengths superior to any other horse in the race.
I think it was a good drive and he made all the right decisions but I can't see where he outsmarted anyone.

Thanks, Trev........the man he mentions BPH "WAS" responsible for some remarkable drives and did outsmart his opposition on Koala King and Weona Warrior........not to mention "the drive of the century" from Howard James aboard Thorate, also from the BPH stable.
I can't believe Sabilize still holds the track record at Bankstown..............I was there that night!

[eliteblood]

Thanks, Trev........the man he mentions BPH "WAS" responsible for some remarkable drives and did outsmart his opposition on Koala King and Weona Warrior........not to mention "the drive of the century" from Howard James aboard Thorate, also from the BPH stable.
I can't believe Sabilize still holds the track record at Bankstown..............I was there that night!

I think that was one of Sabilize's best wins. A long time ago now but I still remember it well.

[The Form Student]

I think that was one of Sabilize's best wins. A long time ago now but I still remember it well.

I have been looking through my old race books, but haven't found it yet...........it would have the sectionals in it!

[Danno]

G'day Ash,
I know from you're earlier post GH Jnr is not your fav person, but that aside, there is a push out rule for a couple of reasons..to give all horses a chance and reduce the griping from the punters about "the trotters always get boxed in". It has been about for quite a few years, in NSW since around ther mid to late 80's if my memory serves me.
Before that it had been in existence in New Zealand for decades! I remember as a kid watching Phil Coulson pushing out from the rails and winning the 1971 Christchurch Inter final on Junior's Image, brilliant drive!! Subsequently lost the race to Stella Frost ( Doody Townley)due to a hotly disputed but nontheless upheld positive swab.

I can tell you from experience, if the inside horse has a head to neck advantage over the outside horse, he will usually succeed in getting out, if the outside horse has the same advantage you are hard pressed to budge him, however if the two horses are level, which ever horse is going the strongest will have it's way, if the outside horse ( in this case Dasher VC) had a bucket full of petrol in the tank he would have held his ground.

I am neither a fan nor a detractor of GH Jnr, but I enjoyed watching his drive... there are some who attempt this move and cause havoc because they try and run out at 90 degrees, I thought he caused as little interference to the other horse as possible while giving his own horse every chance within the rules..doing his job I'd call it.

Cheers,

Dan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EiBab9bg8A&list=UUjLrCAqZ2dZHNiPtm31BEWw&index=10&feature=plcp

[broncobrad]

Dan, I get sucked into those old videos everytime, start watching one and then another and so on and lose track of time completely. Trevor would probably get a kick out of a couple with Sabilize going around in years gone by. But funny how things change over the years. The positive was for caffeine and they copped 7 years, reduced to 5 years. Forty years later its Boldenone and they get 6 and 9 months and one of the offenders is screaming blue murder. How did the disqualification periods become so pathetic.

[teecee]

By reducing the standard of proof and using a charge of absolute liability.
7 years for drug administration down to 6 / 9 months for your horse having a drug in its system. (how it got there is not relevant to proving the charge).

[broncobrad]

Cheers Teecee. It seems like what was once a high risk offence that you would get smashed for with a great big club has now blossomed into a breeding ground for anyone who wants to try to gain an unfair advantage and when caught are delivered a tsk tsk, naughty naughty, nice try but bad luck paltry penalty. Heres a six months holiday to see where you went wrong and try improve your performance enhancing techniques.

Not a strong enough deterrent to put off those seeking to gain that illegal head start I would think.

[Danno]

By reducing the standard of proof and using a charge of absolute liability.
7 years for drug administration down to 6 / 9 months for your horse having a drug in its system. (how it got there is not relevant to proving the charge).

Fully respect your opinion Tony but I dont think the standard of proof has changed at all. Phil Coulson, a multi award winning trainer, ( a record some of our current "celebrity trainers" could only wish to emulate, never, ever, said , or confessed to the administartion of ANYTHING to Juniors Image.
Having said that, I have to agree with Brad, the penalties are pathetic! It makes you wonder!!!

By the way gents, I put that up to display the beautiful push out by Phil at about the 600m, now Brad your a punter who likes to see his horse/stake given every chance, how can you say there should not be a push out rule if your on the one thats pushing out?? The horse is getting it's chance, and thats what everybody wants, I think.

Cheers,
Dan

[broncobrad]

Only a small punter Dan, neither here nor there. We should get the same protection as the giants. I took exception to his 90degree right hand turn. I can accept your push out rule when applied correctly. You have explained the finer points of using this manouvre extremely well in this thread and no need to rehash them. Your point is well and truly proven. Cheers.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=Danno;20872]Fully respect your opinion Tony but I dont think the standard of proof has changed at all. Phil Coulson, a multi award winning trainer, ( a record some of our current "celebrity trainers" could only wish to emulate, never, ever, said , or confessed to the administartion of ANYTHING to Juniors Image.

The point I am making is that back in 1971 if you were charged with a drugs offence then it was one of administering a banned substance to a horse. The prosecutors had to prove to the required standard (balance of probability) that the defendant was the person responsible. In this case it was caffeine which was found in the horse's system. At that time the penalty carried disqualification for upto life. While this case was found proven to the required standard, many others were getting off as officials were unable to prove culpability. To counter this a new rule was invoked, (one of absolute liability where officials did not have to prove culpability, just that the horse raced with a prohibited substance). They couldn't prove where the horse got it from cos the horse couldn't tell them. But it was there.
As a trade off where culpability can't be proven the presenting to race rule is used carrying lighter penalties. (most jurisdictions have fines except NSW .
Where culpability can be proven the original administration charge is used carrying heavier penalties. Most jurisdictions use disqualification as a mandatory penalty here.