New Interdominion Format

[Harold Parker]

The Trotters is done and the Pacers series is changing.

I wasn't around when it was announced. Any idea what the new format is ?

[David Summers]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16884

[Harold Parker]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16884

Thanks mate.

They'll try and reinvent the wheel next.

[David Summers]

Robert , last June we had quite a lively thread going with our thoughts on the new format. http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?1479-Interdom.-2013-15&highlight=interdominion+2013

I have not changed my thinking from then to now about this. I like the locked in 3 year approach , but I do not agree with the changes to the overall Interdominion format . The current three sets of heats and a final , all at the same venue , spread over a couple of weeks , is my preference.

[Greg Hando]

I'm with you David .

[David Summers]

Thanks Greg. I must associate with the "right" crowd. I do not know anyone in my personal harness racing circle of acquaintances who is in favour of the new format.

[mango]

David and Greg i'm with you 100%

They run lead up race's for the Miracle mile and HRNSW said this was to promote Menangle and if horses want to race for great prize money then they must come and race, on the other hand they are giving away heats for the Inter go figuire.

[Greg Hando]

I don't know anyone that like's it either, imo they should change the name as it is not the Inter Dominion any more and hasn't been a true Inter for a few year's now.

[Danno]

David and Greg i'm with you 100%

They run lead up race's for the Miracle mile and HRNSW said this was to promote Menangle and if horses want to race for great prize money then they must come and race, on the other hand they are giving away heats for the Inter go figuire.

Here! here! the original format is what MAKES the ID unique, in a similar way to the Melbourne Cup. This is not the first time nor will it be the last that people come up with "brilliant ideas", consult themselves!? and foist their findings on everyone else because they have convinced themselves they are smarter than the masses!

Cheers,
Dan

[David Summers]

As Dallas says, I just can't see any sense at all in handing all the lead up races to clubs in other states with all the publicity that it will generate for those clubs themselves , one club after another , and then just stand back and only then stage a so-called ID grand final.

It's like Woolworths handing out unlimited free cash vouchers for their customers to do their shopping at Coles supermarkets and then saying whoever spends the most at Coles in the next month can then come to Woolworths and we will "reward" you for supporting the opposition. Crazy !!

[Old Frank]

I love the traditional format as it stands right now at GP, three (3) heats within a week, then a week to the Grand Final.

The toughest horses survive the battles to get the Final, the one who thrives - wins!


If Menangle want to change, make it a run off of potentially three (3) heats of fields of ten (10) during the one (1) day. (30 total entries)

The first three (3) from each running the final (Grand Final field of nine (9), similar in concept to that of the Little Brown Jug. What an action packed day that would be!

If 3yr old's can do it for the 'Jug', no reason why a tough, seasoned GC performer can't here?

[Triple V]

It's a great idea Nathan...but unfortunately I reckon by & large our GC horses would all but fall apart if they were asked to go 3 race speed trips in a single day. They're not trained that way & they're not used to racing that way. If enough $ was offered I guess you'd get starters. It would take a fair bit of promo.

[Old Frank]

It's a great idea Nathan...but unfortunately I reckon by & large our GC horses would all but fall apart if they were asked to go 3 race speed trips in a single day. They're not trained that way & they're not used to racing that way. If enough $ was offered I guess you'd get starters. It would take a fair bit of promo.




Two trips brother.

The first three (3) from each heat (3 heats of 10 runners) make a 9-horse final.

This way, each runner in their respective heat is absolutely doing their 100% best as the one-heat they get is fundamentally their one-shot deal to make the final.

The second three (3) from each heat (placed 4-6) make a 9-horse consolation type final.

Three (3) $100,000 heats, a $200,000 consolation final and a $1m Grand Final would attract them all. Anyone with a GC level horse that say's they wouldn't race are telling porkies.

I reckon with promo it would be an outstanding concept.

[broncobrad]

Instead of changing the format of the ID why don't you pitch the whole concept as a completely new event.

I reckon you are on to something Nathan

[2minuteman]

Instead of changing the format of the ID why don't you pitch the whole concept as a completely new event.
YES,I.D. to stay the same and then something NEW,now wouldn't that be unusual?
Instead of a marketing guru/self appointed agent for change taking a time honoured product and destroying it completely,use a bit of imagination (unknown quantity with this mob) and promote something NEW and DIFFERENT.

[Daryl New]

Have to agree prefer the traditional model of the Interdominion, 3 rounds of heats and final a week later in the one location. Next they will be running the Derbies over a thousand metres.

[David Summers]

Knock , knock , HRNSW / Menangle Club , anyone home????

Your new ID concept is utter nonsense and condemned by all sides of the industry. Is this stupid idea set in stone or will any sanity somehow, some way prevail? Just because other states or NZ have no money to conduct a REAL GENUINE Interdominion , you believe you can put forward any proposal at all that would be accepted , because no-one else could afford to do so.

You are attempting to destroy harness racing tradition with this half baked "trendy" idea. Don't try and pretend this is an "Interdominion", it most certainly is not. Retire the name and all the fabulous memories that have gone with it over such a long time.

HRNSW / Menangle Club you top your "brilliant" thinking off with a 14 horse 3000 metre so-called ID "grand final". Cloud cuckoo land!

Call your new "dog's breakfast" concept some other name . It's no "Interdominion."

Ah, got that off my chest , now it's bedtime ZZZZZZZZZ.

[broncobrad]

Knock , knock , HRNSW , anyone home????

Your new ID concept is utter nonsense and condemned by all sides of the industry. Is this stupid idea set in stone or will any sanity somehow, some way prevail? Just because other states or NZ have no money to conduct a REAL GENUINE Interdominion , you believe you can put forward any proposal at all that would be accepted , because no-one else could afford to do so.

You are attempting to destroy harness racing tradition with this half baked "trendy" idea. Don't try and pretend this is an "Interdominion", it most certainly is not. Retire the name and all the fabulous memories that have gone with it over such a long time.

Call your new "dog's breakfast" concept some other name . It's no "Interdominion."

Ah, got that off my chest , now it's bedtime ZZZZZZZZZ.

Doesn't that feel better David? You should do that more often. Time to retire myself.

[Harold Parker]

I'm making three trips to Perth in a fortnight. If I had the leave I'd of taken the whole two weeks off and put a few K more into the local economy. I love the Interdominion in it's proper format and I'll travel to see it. They should have it in Perth every year and quit messing with it.

The problem in Sydney unlike Perth is if I was travelling from interstate to take in the Interdominion for a week or two where do I stay and what do I do ? Menangle is in the sticks. I live in Paddington, I've been to Menangle twice and it's taken me 2 hours each time to get there. Hence the reason for the heats being anywhere and everywhere and just the one big night of racing.

There's nothing unique about a 3000m race with 14 runners. The final prizemoney is dropping 250K as well.

[Old Frank]

Thanks Brad.

Agree, leave the ID as is, however my version (again pretty much the format of the Little Brown Jug) becomes your Twenty20 of Harness Racing, all action packed in one day which ultimately is the battle all sports administrators have in this day and age keeping fans attention for long periods.


I've heard trainers also gripe about being away for long periods involved with the ID and effecting their stables back home, so what do they do? Look after the good horse and it effects their other owners horses?

We might have had 'Joe Janiack' type trainers in Harness in days gone by with a small team, but fundamentally one outstanding horse, however now it's big teams, big numbers, hence trying to find a format that works for all.

The ID format proposed by Menangle is a complete and utter joke - disgraceful.

[murray green]

Thanks Brad.

Agree, leave the ID as is, however my version (again pretty much the format of the Little Brown Jug) becomes your Twenty20 of Harness Racing, all action packed in one day which ultimately is the battle all sports administrators have in this day and age keeping fans attention for long periods.


I've heard trainers also gripe about being away for long periods involved with the ID and effecting their stables back home, so what do they do? Look after the good horse and it effects their other owners horses?

We might have had 'Joe Janiack' type trainers in Harness in days gone by with a small team, but fundamentally one outstanding horse, however now it's big teams, big numbers, hence trying to find a format that works for all.

The ID format proposed by Menangle is a complete and utter joke - disgraceful.



Was this Sams idea along with the board ??

Why can't it be put to a vote with all the people who train , drive & own the horses . At least HRNSW will know how the people want it run & how , after all without them there would be no ID.

[aussiebreno]

Was this Sams idea along with the board ??

Why can't it be put to a vote with all the people who train , drive & own the horses . At least HRNSW will know how the people want it run & how , after all without them there would be no ID.
I believe its Menangle club and not HRNSW.

[murray green]

I believe its Menangle club and not HRNSW.

Ok thanks , but still get & let the industry participants have their say.
Surely they would know whats best for themselves & this industry . Then it can be sorted out on how it should be run.

[2minuteman]

I'm making three trips to Perth in a fortnight. If I had the leave I'd of taken the whole two weeks off and put a few K more into the local economy. I love the Interdominion in it's proper format and I'll travel to see it. They should have it in Perth every year and quit messing with it.


The problem in Sydney unlike Perth is if I was travelling from interstate to take in the Interdominion for a week or two where do I stay and what do I do ? Menangle is in the sticks. I live in Paddington, I've been to Menangle twice and it's taken me 2 hours each time to get there. Hence the reason for the heats being anywhere and everywhere and just the one big night of racing.

There's nothing unique about a 3000m race with 14 runners. The final prizemoney is dropping 250K as well.
Decisions,decisions,decisions.What will we do Darls,if we go to Menagle it will take two hours and then there is parking fees and a two hour drive home,it's too much of a drag.
I know, we will go to the airport,probably take 40 mins.Got to be there at least 30 mins before take off time.That will be put back 30 mins,damn.Five hour flight to Perth,into a cab and off to the trots.Trots over,cab back to the airport,30 mins before flight,maybe,5 hour flight home,pay parking fees,anything up to $200,40 min drive home,get to bed about 8.00am,and guess what?,we will do that three times in 14 days.Airfares? well could be anything from $1500 a time to almost anything doesn't that beat going to Menangle?
Really?You must be a Banker,or something.

[Mitch]

I love the tradition of the Interdominion. It was one of the things that drew me to the sport as a kid.

However if you look at the current series I think it proves that something has to change. 12 heats, 8 winners odds on, 3 winners (2.1-2.6) second favs and the other was Crombie on night 1 at $26. This is exactly the reason why people don't bet on the trots and the sport is struggling. Sure the final will be good but we all new prior to the start of the series that barring injury the final would be a 2 horse race.

Now I am not suggesting for 1 minute that NSW has it right but if this is our premier event, it has to become more competitive and based on current it's not really that competitive. There are way too many horses in this series simply making up numbers.

We have to make the hard decisions in this sport to make the racing more competitive. If the new version does that it should be embraced and supported. If it doesnt NSWHRC, HRNSW & HRA need to show humility and change it.

[The Form Student]

I love the tradition of the Interdominion. It was one of the things that drew me to the sport as a kid.

However if you look at the current series I think it proves that something has to change. 12 heats, 8 winners odds on, 3 winners (2.1-2.6) second favs and the other was Crombie on night 1 at $26. This is exactly the reason why people don't bet on the trots and the sport is struggling. Sure the final will be good but we all new prior to the start of the series that barring injury the final would be a 2 horse race.

Now I am not suggesting for 1 minute that NSW has it right but if this is our premier event, it has to become more competitive and based on current it's not really that competitive. There are way too many horses in this series simply making up numbers.

We have to make the hard decisions in this sport to make the racing more competitive. If the new version does that it should be embraced and supported. If it doesnt NSWHRC, HRNSW & HRA need to show humility and change it.

It all starts with the top ranked horses not drawing to race each until the final.....we are all kept in suspense, until the final..........please give me a break!

[Mitch]

Keeping people in suspense won't keep the sport alive Steve.

[The Form Student]

Keeping people in suspense won't keep the sport alive Steve.

I agree, they should just pick the best field and forget the heats! Otherwise have a serious barrier draw for all heats.

[Mitch]

Super tab win pools last night:

ID heats total = $318k

Races 1,3,5,7 = $277k

Hardly encouraging for the heats of our premier event!

[The Form Student]

Super tab win pools last night:

ID heats total = $318k

Races 1,3,5,7 = $277k

Hardly encouraging for the heats of our premier event!

Good stat, can't argue about that......they keep the main players in "cotton wool"....reduce the fields and have stronger races.....if someone gets enough points in the first 2 round of heats....they have a quiet run in the final round.

[aussiebreno]

Good stat, can't argue about that......they keep the main players in "cotton wool"....reduce the fields and have stronger races.....if someone gets enough points in the first 2 round of heats....they have a quiet run in the final round.
If there were three that had enough points this year it was Smoken Up, ITMQ and Reactor. All three won. Cotton wool theory abolished.

[aussiebreno]

Super tab win pools last night:

ID heats total = $318k

Races 1,3,5,7 = $277k

Hardly encouraging for the heats of our premier event!
ID heats would have had money on fixed odds as well.

[aussiebreno]

Keeping people in suspense won't keep the sport alive Steve.
The 4 heats had a pool of $318K as you said. I'll take a guess and say over the three nights close to $800K.
No heats at all = $0.

[Mitch]

The 4 heats had a pool of $318K as you said. I'll take a guess and say over the three nights close to $800K.
No heats at all = $0.

Yes that is correct but my point is that if 4 races that are not grand circuit heats can generate almost the same win pool turnover what is the point of the heats. If this is to be our premier event and the format that everyone is so passionate about is so good I would expect it to generate win pool turnover significantly higher than normal. Clearly this isn't the case.....

Like Steve said just run the final with Smoken Up, ITMQ, Auckland Reactor, Raglan, Crombie & Feelgood.

[aussiebreno]

Yes that is correct but my point is that if 4 races that are not grand circuit heats can generate almost the same win pool turnover what is the point of the heats. If this is to be our premier event and the format that everyone is so passionate about is so good I would expect it to generate win pool turnover significantly higher than normal. Clearly this isn't the case.....

Like Steve said just run the final with Smoken Up, ITMQ, Auckland Reactor, Raglan, Crombie & Feelgood.
The heats have never been about, and should never be about, generating TAB turnover. The Interdominion is a series where all eyes are on the final. Just like the NRL grand final on Sunday twilight/night, the last saturday in September for AFL, the American Football Super Bowl, The baseball world series etc it is all about the final.
It doesn't matter what race it is, when you have a $1.04 favourite (Smoken Up), a $1.30 favourite (ITMQ) there simply isn't going to be as much in the market. I doubt Black Caviars pools match the pools of ordinary metro races in the gallops. Especially on the third night, when even though it didn't pan out like it this year, The Form Student pointed out punters are wary of horses being kept in cotton wool.
With the sheer dominance of ITQM and Smoken Up it kept many away from the trip to Perth. I have no doubt from horses not at the series you could run a race, maybe even two or three or more, that would shit all over the consolation on Friday night. That's not the IDs fault - thats the big travel and two horse dominance. In Sydney that fear factor of travelling for no reason is gone for most of the kiwis and the eastern seaboard. With the inclusion of those extra horses the series would be much more competitive and more turnover would occur (also because its on at a decent time of night, the market of people who are up until midnight betting on harness would be minimal with Perth 3 hours behind this could only improve with the series at Sydney).

[Mitch]

Brendan, our premier event has to be all about generating TAB turnover, that's what the industry survives on!

Don't kid yourself about it not being about that. As I said earlier I love the tradition of the Interdominion but the heats process just doesn't generate the betting interests it needs to make it worthwhile.

I also question whether trainers really want to run their horses 4 times in 14 days at that level with they way horses are bred these days???

[aussiebreno]

Brendan, our premier event has to be all about generating TAB turnover, that's what the industry survives on!

Don't kid yourself about it not being about that. As I said earlier I love the tradition of the Interdominion but the heats process just doesn't generate the betting interests it needs to make it worthwhile.

I also question whether trainers really want to run their horses 4 times in 14 days at that level with they way horses are bred these days???
The industry does not survive on the TAB turnover on the heats of the ID. The figures aren't that bad anyway.
This $318K sure beats $0 that no heats would have......

[aussiebreno]

NSW Pools Last night

Rc1: $24K
Rc2: $13K
Rc3: $17K
Rc4: $23K
Rc5: $39K
Rc6: $31K
Rc7: $23K
Rc8: $19K

ID average: 23K
Other ave: 26K

Now lets look at Gloucester Park from a fortnight ago

Rc1: $21K
Rc2: $11K
Rc3: $21K
Rc4: $13K
Rc5: $30K
Rc6: $15K
Rc7: $13K
Rc8: $7K
Rc9: $5K
Rc10: $4K

This shows that the IDs rolling into town have helped turnover overall. It also shows as I said earlier the lateness of the races has an affect on pools; which the eastern seaboard won't have problem with.
It also shows how the late factor is so prevalent because most of the money is just blokes sitting at the pub with nothing better to do. The blokes with nothing better to do will bet on trackside, Broken Hill dogs, Royal Randwick or Interdom heats with no thought, just another bet to them, the status of the race means nothing. The extra punting money that comes with bigger races for harness is smarter money and actual harness fans and pro/smarter/bigger punters money that will not be bet with the TAB tote, it will be with another source trying to get better odds. Of course some it would still come through the TAB though. Helping it come through the TAB would be if Smoken Up was lining up against Melpark Major or Smiling Shard instead of Alzona and Wrongly Accused - which would have happened had it been at Menangle.
I don't know how TAB turnover got bought into this but there you have it; its A) not that relevant B) not that bad and C)has a lot of upside.

Edit: I probably haven't explained the not that relevant part in detail. In one season, 363 racing days, there would be thousands of races - 12 ID heats are very minor in the scheme of things. Effort at promoting turnover would be better put into the thousands of country races a year.

[murray green]

After reading Sams baby again , IMO its stupid.... 7 winners , they select their barrier so they fight amongst themselves who gets what one or pull it out of a hat or something ...who goes first in that situation.....the runners up make up the rest of the field..... they are there just making up the numbers cause they aren't good enough in the first place . The heats will attract the GOOD horses & the also rans as per usual , the GOOD will go through . The rest struggling to make the final , but they will have no hope in the final because of the barrier draw.....There has to be a better way & a few on this forum would have to agree . Some have even suggested other ways better than Sams .

[Mitch]

The industry does not survive on the TAB turnover on the heats of the ID. The figures aren't that bad anyway.
This $318K sure beats $0 that no heats would have......

Yes Brendan I realise that, however the industry as whole is reliant on TAB turnover as the major source of revenue to increase prizemoney etc. My point is that if our premier event is not attracting significant increases in TAB revenue and its not drawing the sponsorship dollars and public attention that is required then we should look at changing something.

I agree that the time difference and travel distance has impacted on the above it we would see stronger revenue and better fields if the event was run in the eastern states of Aust.

Personally I'm not convinced the format NSW are going to run with will work either.

I would use the $1.6M in prizemoney up for grabs this year to have 4 races over a 4 week carnival open for entry to all pacers who have passed certain qualifying criteria. The field would be determined by a ballot based on career and current performance.

Week 1: 1609m Group 3 of $150k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Oaks heats and 2yo Sapling Stakes for fillies
Week 2: 1609m Group 3 of $150k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Derby heats and 2yo Sapling Stakes for colts
Week 3: 2300m Group 2 of $300k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Oaks Final, Mares Stakes race, a trotters stakes race & female drivers event
Week 4: 3200m Group 1 Interdominion of $1M field of 10 (3 winners above plus next 7 best performed horses in Aust/NZ) off the front at Menangle, combine with Derby Final, Mares Stakes race, Trotters Cup and a 2yo Stakes race open to Colts & Filles PBD/Sex & a junior drivers event

I would run the carnival for the 4 weeks post the thoroughbred autumn carnival and work with NSW events and the ATC to extend the carnival of racing brand to incorporate both thoroughbred and harness racing. You could even push back the Sydney APG sale and hold it at the back end of the easter sales at Randwick to broaden the scope of the carnival.

[aussiebreno]

Yes Brendan I realise that, however the industry as whole is reliant on TAB turnover as the major source of revenue to increase prizemoney etc. My point is that if our premier event is not attracting significant increases in TAB revenue and its not drawing the sponsorship dollars and public attention that is required then we should look at changing something.

I agree that the time difference and travel distance has impacted on the above it we would see stronger revenue and better fields if the event was run in the eastern states of Aust.

Personally I'm not convinced the format NSW are going to run with will work either.

I would use the $1.6M in prizemoney up for grabs this year to have 4 races over a 4 week carnival open for entry to all pacers who have passed certain qualifying criteria. The field would be determined by a ballot based on career and current performance.

Week 1: 1609m Group 3 of $150k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Oaks heats and 2yo Sapling Stakes for fillies
Week 2: 1609m Group 3 of $150k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Derby heats and 2yo Sapling Stakes for colts
Week 3: 2300m Group 2 of $300k (Winner exempt from ballot), combine with Oaks Final, Mares Stakes race, a trotters stakes race & female drivers event
Week 4: 3200m Group 1 BEN HUR of $1M field of 10 (3 winners above plus next 7 best performed horses in Aust/NZ) off the front at Menangle, combine with Derby Final, Mares Stakes race, Trotters Cup and a 2yo Stakes race open to Colts & Filles PBD/Sex & a junior drivers event

I would run the carnival for the 4 weeks post the thoroughbred autumn carnival and work with NSW events and the ATC to extend the carnival of racing brand to incorporate both thoroughbred and harness racing. You could even push back the Sydney APG sale and hold it at the back end of the easter sales at Randwick to broaden the scope of the carnival.

This year it is worth $1 Mill. I think it got some good sponsorship dollars. Interest isn't always measured in TAB turnover. There is probably little interest in C0s at Newcastle on a Saturday night yet they can challenge a FFA at Menangle on the Friday night in terms of TAB pool.

Using this forum as a show of interest - not one race has generated as much discussion on this forum as the IDs. I think the interest is there. In fact I'll even go as far to say the ID has pulled the forum together and stopped the bickering and has made all the bad stuff happening recently take a back seat.

An interdominion isn't about getting the most TAB dollars. I really don't understand why you think a few races representing 0.01% (if that) of the years racing is so important. An interdominion is unique and is about getting the best horses together and showcasing them (which Perth and the SU and ITMQ dominance thrawted this year). The figures aren't that bad anyway.

There is a seperate thread for carnival of racing.

[Mitch]

OK Brendan I will try one last time to explain myself then I will move on.

I am not disputing that the ID creates interest within the harness community and you are right that this forum is proof of that. I agree that the Perth factor has had some negative impacts.

My point is that the current format does not deliver competitive racing until you get to the final and without competitive racing TAB turnover suffers and people tune out. I haven't bothered to watch any of the heats live as most of the results are a foregone conclusion (and I'm not the only one). I also question whether the current format is dynamic enough to create interest outside of the sport to draw in new participants. Given this is supposedly the pinnacle event in harness racing it needs to be a cash cow for punting revenue, sponsorship investment and general media coverage. If not the industry is just pissing in its own wetsuit (feels good at the time but starts to stink after a while) and I am saying that it is currently not delivering on that.

I am suggesting that the $720K prize money that was on offer throughout the heats would be better spent on less races that are more competitive. I am not suggesting that the TAB turnover on the ID is critical to the overall health of the industry, I am using it as KPI to suggest that the current format doesn't deliver a significantly better result which it should. The days of luring massive crowds to the trots are long gone, so the true measure of success of an event has to be TAB turnover followed by sponsorship $$$ investment and media coverage.

If the current format can deliver competitive racing in both heats and final on the Eastern seaboard then I would fully support it. Obviously NSWHRC don't believe it can that's why that have changed it.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Lenem]

perfect sense !

[murray green]

perfect sense !

Agree

[aussiebreno]

[QUOTE=Mitch;18298]OK Brendan I will try one last time to explain myself then I will move on.
QUOTE]
Yep think its best to agree to disagree.