NSW 2yo Fillies racing opportunities. WHAT AN ABSOLUTE DISGRACE!!!!!!!!!!

[Triple V]

Here in NSW, between February 23rd and May 31st...exclusive of all Futurity, Sales and Classic events....there are a paltry 11 opportunities for bread & butter 2yo fillies...and that's most of them...to drop in and race against their own sex.
By way of a direct comparison, and again exclusive of all Futurity, Sales & Classic events.......there are no fewer than 72 races carded where the fillies would have to face the colts & geldings. It's absolutely criminal. The owners of 2yo fillies just get hung out to dry year after year after year. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[broncobrad]

Jamie thats a fair few :mad::mad:. And you have been banging this drum for a while now, and although we are reading it, the caretakers of the sport are not listening. The breeders are getting out, sales figures are through the floor and their is no confidence in the integrity of the sport on most levels. This is eyes painted on, ears blocked with wax type of management of a going concern. What are the industry leaders doing.

You would think the grass roots of the Australian brand would be being nurtured. All they are doing is inviting the buyers to a NZ market.

By the way, when did you become a super moderator, I remember one of your own posts in which you pretty well barred yourself from such a noble position. :D

[teecee]

Just wondering...
When one of these 2yo fillies only races is programmed how are they received by trainers?
Are they ignored or ballot 2/3..3/4 of the entries????

[Old Frank]

Jamie, this is one of my major gripes about NSW harness racing. Your point is in relation to 2yr old fillies but what about the disgraceful manner mares are treated in this state, outside of their 2 & 3yr old seasons (which as your highlighting is diabolical!)

Don't anybody jump in and say how there's been a feature mares race for the last 3-4 metro's, take out the 6 week period around the Ladyship, leaving some 46 weeks where mares are uncatered for and fundamentally cannot earn any metro money as they have to race colts and geldings and cannot be competitive.

There should be a 10 race program every metro meeting, 1 x trotters, 2 x mares, 7 x various grades and therefore you have room for all class of horse to be catered for consistently.

There should be M0-M3 and M3+ for mares only every week and further, mares should automatically get a 1 grade 'lift' back when nominated for an open class race, i.e. an M2 mare automatically becomes an M1 and could actually race in an M0 with a junior. Therefore a mare has a chance to compile 4-5 metro wins next to her name, winning good prizemoney and helping her become commercially viable as a broodmare and her potential offspring. Or with mares only metro class, she can stay racing her own sex for maximum advantage.

[Daryl New]

The only part of this is the double drop back for mares. Im against double dipping. However why only mares ? what about all bread and butter horses, COs that have to compete against Derby contenders etc. Random barrier draws across multiple class conditions with also eligible clauses and the beauty of them all conditions of races being changed after acceptances etc.

[mightymo]

Jamie, this is one of my major gripes about NSW harness racing. Your point is in relation to 2yr old fillies but what about the disgraceful manner mares are treated in this state, outside of their 2 & 3yr old seasons (which as your highlighting is diabolical!)

Don't anybody jump in and say how there's been a feature mares race for the last 3-4 metro's, take out the 6 week period around the Ladyship, leaving some 46 weeks where mares are uncatered for and fundamentally cannot earn any metro money as they have to race colts and geldings and cannot be competitive.

There should be a 10 race program every metro meeting, 1 x trotters, 2 x mares, 7 x various grades and therefore you have room for all class of horse to be catered for consistently.

There should be M0-M3 and M3+ for mares only every week and further, mares should automatically get a 1 grade 'lift' back when nominated for an open class race, i.e. an M2 mare automatically becomes an M1 and could actually race in an M0 with a junior. Therefore a mare has a chance to compile 4-5 metro wins next to her name, winning good prizemoney and helping her become commercially viable as a broodmare and her potential offspring. Or with mares only metro class, she can stay racing her own sex for maximum advantage.

agree 100%, although mares do get a reduction in class. ie an m2 mare can race in a M1 only race

[Danno]

Here in NSW, between February 23rd and May 31st...exclusive of all Futurity, Sales and Classic events....there are a paltry 11 opportunities for bread & butter 2yo fillies...and that's most of them...to drop in and race against their own sex.
By way of a direct comparison, and again exclusive of all Futurity, Sales & Classic events.......there are no fewer than 72 races carded where the fillies would have to face the colts & geldings. It's absolutely criminal. The owners of 2yo fillies just get hung out to dry year after year after year.

Hey Jamie,
what about we drop 2YO racing altogether:D, put that prizemoney into 3YO and 4YO racing and have a totally evenly divided prizemoney pool for the sexes!
No 2YO racing would cut down on the accidental/inncidental wastage factor attached to juvenile racing and ensure a higher percentage of horses give a return to the owner. This coupled with more money available for fillies/ mares races and you might just help to increase the value of your yearlings due to the reduced wastage.

Now I know this would be a massive step away from where we are now but, you know my opinion, I think we've been addicted to juvenile racing for far too long and I'm aware that I'll get lambasted from all and sundry for daring to suggest such a radical and initially expensive move, but one would hope people can take off the blinkers and give it a bit of thought.

Heaps of babies get damaged mentally and physically during the process of TRYING to get to the races as 2YO's. If these strains were applied to the same horse with another 12 months of maturity you MUST get more "productivity" from the same group of horses.

Righto, you can all start throwing shit at me now. http://www.harnessracingforum.com/images/icons/icon7.png
Cheers,
Dan

[TSW]

Here in NSW, between February 23rd and May 31st...exclusive of all Futurity, Sales and Classic events....there are a paltry 11 opportunities for bread & butter 2yo fillies...and that's most of them...to drop in and race against their own sex.
By way of a direct comparison, and again exclusive of all Futurity, Sales & Classic events.......there are no fewer than 72 races carded where the fillies would have to face the colts & geldings. It's absolutely criminal. The owners of 2yo fillies just get hung out to dry year after year after year. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

May be a good way to protect the 2yo baby girls from over racing. When they've had a bit more time to grow and race well as 3yo+ you may think that it wasn't such a bad idea after all.

[The Form Student]

Here in NSW, between February 23rd and May 31st...exclusive of all Futurity, Sales and Classic events....there are a paltry 11 opportunities for bread & butter 2yo fillies...and that's most of them...to drop in and race against their own sex.
By way of a direct comparison, and again exclusive of all Futurity, Sales & Classic events.......there are no fewer than 72 races carded where the fillies would have to face the colts & geldings. It's absolutely criminal. The owners of 2yo fillies just get hung out to dry year after year after year. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Just a minute.........Racing adminstrators only have to look at the poor fields for 2YO fillies in the current Lynden Huntley Series to decide that fillies don't need more races..........5 colts & geldings heats (full fields) & 3 fillies heats with only 6-7 runners in each...........some lucky owner/trainer out of only 20 fillies is going to win a $50,000 prize...........pretty good odds to me...........maybe when some analysis is done of 2YO fillies nominations and they improve more race will be programmed.........probably a lot of trainers think that thay should just wait a bit longer with the fillies before racing them???

[Old Frank]

Harvey and Daryl,

Harvey - Is that the case in NSW? I know there is a 'lift/drop back' for mares in VIC but is it the case up here? You nominate and see race conditions a lot more so yes I could be wrong, a long time since I've read the race programming section of the Gazette or online!

My sentiments for a 'lift/drop back' pertain to all mares, irrespective of the race. It could be a C6 mare dropping back and becoming eligible for a C4 race with junior.

The industry needs mares winning, putting times down and winning good money in order to sustain the breeding industry which fundamentally is on it's knees.

It doesn't matter that you might have a 'half sister' to this great mare, or whatever, if she only put's $20,000 next to her name (or worse), with really no performance, she won't, nor will her stock become commercially viable, and yes there would be the occassional exception to the rule however you know where I'm coming from.

I have been involved with great stables in the past who had exceptional mares but they had too, and were subsquently burnt out by racing the boys week in-week out. They all got to the M3/M4/M5 class (did super jobs), but it was done over 100 races and were quite simply knackered at the end of it, hence I'm adamant that this effects their breeding capabilities (None have turned out a really good horse as yet)

If you could retire a mare after her 4 or 5 yr old season with 50 starts next to her name and $50,000 - $100,000 dependant on her success, a.) you wouldn't have a tired mare who then your asking to carry a foal which is a heave in itself, but b.) your giving yourself and the breeding industry an injection of quality, measured performance and the buyers will rhave confidence in the product (yearling) being put forward and respond with purchase.

You also have the ability by your mare winning good money to afford a bank to start breeding her properly and not face a black hole or bottomless pit of money awaiting trying to breed a mare who won nothing, yet your trying to aim to jag a $30,000 foal out of her, yeh good luck with that!

Daryl,

I'm sorry mate, but as awful as this sounds, I couldn't give a shit about C0 racing. If I was an industry leader and I was having to look at adjustments/clauses reconfiguration for C0 racing, fundamentally, I am rewarding mediocrity.

They may be the 'bread and butter' as you put it and yes, I know the perspective your coming from, however all owners should, and in this case more importantly, administrators be aspiring to better the class and standard of metro racing as without successful metro class racing, you won't have a product to sell to the masses/TAB in the future. It's as simple as that.

A vast majority of horses currently racing as C0's/C1's aren't worth two bob and in my opinion again, it's a disgrace that they get punched around lingering on the hope to their trainer and owners that they'll win a race - somewhere, anywhere.

It costs the same to feed a bad one as it does a good one and to a large degree, the better the horse, the cheaper it is to train and you can give it less starts in better class races, thus racing for and earning better prizemoney, promoting satisfaction to all whilst the overall product is better.

You don't see Bill Gates or the late Steve Jobs aspire to improve a class of the computer industry that everyone has done/is doing, keeping the 'bread and butter' happy, they implement product that betters the overall industry, time and again, taking their innovation and quality of product higher and higher, thus the marketplace is drawn to their success and their industries power ahead constantly.

[aussiebreno]

How about admins let the normal 2yo races stand up even when there are only 6 or 7 noms. That's probably another reason for lower field numbers at Bulli and why there will be even less exposed form at Bathurst than usual.

[The Form Student]

A lot of clubs are now making the 2YO race the last race on the program.......probably because there is little interest in betting on unraced 2YO's.....these young horses are having to wait around alnight before they get their turn!!!

[aussiebreno]

Harvey and Daryl,

Harvey - Is that the case in NSW? I know there is a 'lift/drop back' for mares in VIC but is it the case up here? You nominate and see race conditions a lot more so yes I could be wrong, a long time since I've read the race programming section of the Gazette or online!

My sentiments for a 'lift/drop back' pertain to all mares, irrespective of the race. It could be a C6 mare dropping back and becoming eligible for a C4 race with junior.

The industry needs mares winning, putting times down and winning good money in order to sustain the breeding industry which fundamentally is on it's knees.

It doesn't matter that you might have a 'half sister' to this great mare, or whatever, if she only put's $20,000 next to her name (or worse), with really no performance, she won't, nor will her stock become commercially viable, and yes there would be the occassional exception to the rule however you know where I'm coming from.

I have been involved with great stables in the past who had exceptional mares but they had too, and were subsquently burnt out by racing the boys week in-week out. They all got to the M3/M4/M5 class (did super jobs), but it was done over 100 races and were quite simply knackered at the end of it, hence I'm adamant that this effects their breeding capabilities (None have turned out a really good horse as yet)

If you could retire a mare after her 4 or 5 yr old season with 50 starts next to her name and $50,000 - $100,000 dependant on her success, a.) you wouldn't have a tired mare who then your asking to carry a foal which is a heave in itself, but b.) your giving yourself and the breeding industry an injection of quality, measured performance and the buyers will rhave confidence in the product (yearling) being put forward and respond with purchase.

You also have the ability by your mare winning good money to afford a bank to start breeding her properly and not face a black hole or bottomless pit of money awaiting trying to breed a mare who won nothing, yet your trying to aim to jag a $30,000 foal out of her, yeh good luck with that!

Daryl,

I'm sorry mate, but as awful as this sounds, I couldn't give a shit about C0 racing. If I was an industry leader and I was having to look at adjustments/clauses reconfiguration for C0 racing, fundamentally, I am rewarding mediocrity.

They may be the 'bread and butter' as you put it and yes, I know the perspective your coming from, however all owners should, and in this case more importantly, administrators be aspiring to better the class and standard of metro racing as without successful metro class racing, you won't have a product to sell to the masses/TAB in the future. It's as simple as that.

A vast majority of horses currently racing as C0's/C1's aren't worth two bob and in my opinion again, it's a disgrace that they get punched around lingering on the hope to their trainer and owners that they'll win a race - somewhere, anywhere.

It costs the same to feed a bad one as it does a good one and to a large degree, the better the horse, the cheaper it is to train and you can give it less starts in better class races, thus racing for and earning better prizemoney, promoting satisfaction to all whilst the overall product is better.

You don't see Bill Gates or the late Steve Jobs aspire to improve a class of the computer industry that everyone has done/is doing, keeping the 'bread and butter' happy, they implement product that betters the overall industry, time and again, taking their innovation and quality of product higher and higher, thus the marketplace is drawn to their success and their industries power ahead constantly.
Yes but a heck of a lot of people buy the latest technology. Not many horses reach the top grade.

[Triple V]

...of those 11 precious 2yo fillies only events carded here in NSW between today (Feb 23rd) and the 31st of May, 4 of them are for Restricted Grade $ (3k each). Charming stuff that. Little wonder yearling fillies sell for 4/5ths of bugger all. :(

[mightymo]

Harvey and Daryl,

Harvey - Is that the case in NSW? I know there is a 'lift/drop back' for mares in VIC but is it the case up here? You nominate and see race conditions a lot more so yes I could be wrong, a long time since I've read the race programming section of the Gazette or online!

My sentiments for a 'lift/drop back' pertain to all mares, irrespective of the race. It could be a C6 mare dropping back and becoming eligible for a C4 race with junior.

The industry needs mares winning, putting times down and winning good money in order to sustain the breeding industry which fundamentally is on it's knees.

It doesn't matter that you might have a 'half sister' to this great mare, or whatever, if she only put's $20,000 next to her name (or worse), with really no performance, she won't, nor will her stock become commercially viable, and yes there would be the occassional exception to the rule however you know where I'm coming from.

I have been involved with great stables in the past who had exceptional mares but they had too, and were subsquently burnt out by racing the boys week in-week out. They all got to the M3/M4/M5 class (did super jobs), but it was done over 100 races and were quite simply knackered at the end of it, hence I'm adamant that this effects their breeding capabilities (None have turned out a really good horse as yet)

If you could retire a mare after her 4 or 5 yr old season with 50 starts next to her name and $50,000 - $100,000 dependant on her success, a.) you wouldn't have a tired mare who then your asking to carry a foal which is a heave in itself, but b.) your giving yourself and the breeding industry an injection of quality, measured performance and the buyers will rhave confidence in the product (yearling) being put forward and respond with purchase.

You also have the ability by your mare winning good money to afford a bank to start breeding her properly and not face a black hole or bottomless pit of money awaiting trying to breed a mare who won nothing, yet your trying to aim to jag a $30,000 foal out of her, yeh good luck with that!

Daryl,

I'm sorry mate, but as awful as this sounds, I couldn't give a shit about C0 racing. If I was an industry leader and I was having to look at adjustments/clauses reconfiguration for C0 racing, fundamentally, I am rewarding mediocrity.

They may be the 'bread and butter' as you put it and yes, I know the perspective your coming from, however all owners should, and in this case more importantly, administrators be aspiring to better the class and standard of metro racing as without successful metro class racing, you won't have a product to sell to the masses/TAB in the future. It's as simple as that.

A vast majority of horses currently racing as C0's/C1's aren't worth two bob and in my opinion again, it's a disgrace that they get punched around lingering on the hope to their trainer and owners that they'll win a race - somewhere, anywhere.

It costs the same to feed a bad one as it does a good one and to a large degree, the better the horse, the cheaper it is to train and you can give it less starts in better class races, thus racing for and earning better prizemoney, promoting satisfaction to all whilst the overall product is better.

You don't see Bill Gates or the late Steve Jobs aspire to improve a class of the computer industry that everyone has done/is doing, keeping the 'bread and butter' happy, they implement product that betters the overall industry, time and again, taking their innovation and quality of product higher and higher, thus the marketplace is drawn to their success and their industries power ahead constantly.

Nathan

In NSW things are in fact as you desire.

A c5 mare can in fact race as a c3 with a junior. The exception to that is that you cant claim dowm from c1/m1 to co/m0.

What we desperately need IMO is:

1. Ability for fillies/mares to only race fillies/mares throughout their entire career at all levels

2. Special series of mares races for 4yo's.(outside of Breeders crown and statebred series) Once they finish their 3yo careers they are straight away thrown up against seasoned older mares which makes things very tough

If you are lucky enough to get a good filly/mare like I did with Arctic Fire and you get through to say M4 class, then you have to either struggle against the open class boys or go to the breeding barn. The only alternative is to go to the USA where you can race against mares for very good money every week of the year...

[Triple V]

Just a minute.........Racing adminstrators only have to look at the poor fields for 2YO fillies in the current Lynden Huntley Series to decide that fillies don't need more races..........5 colts & geldings heats (full fields) & 3 fillies heats with only 6-7 runners in each...........some lucky owner/trainer out of only 20 fillies is going to win a $50,000 prize...........pretty good odds to me...........maybe when some analysis is done of 2YO fillies nominations and they improve more race will be programmed.........probably a lot of trainers think that thay should just wait a bit longer with the fillies before racing them???

[VVV] Nah, it has unfrotunately become...well, in fact if HRNSW were being honest with themselves, it has long been...a self-fulfilling prophecy Steve. The chicken and the egg scenario being played out with 2yo fillies and in all of its gorey glory.
The race clubs simply don't program the 2yo fillies only races to start with, instead they'd prefer to mindlessly spew forth 2C0's and 2C0-2C1's until the cows come home, thus forcing the sexes together and seeing to it that 2yo fillies annually get their heads summarily beaten in by the colts. Not surprisingly owners duly stop buying them at the sales or privately and/or their breeders stop racing them because it is simply not viable for them to do so...therefore nominations suffer because there are fewer 2yo fillies noms...therefore instantly there's something that the hoast of race programming bozos throughout the State can point to and hang their respective hats upon in order to justify why they don't program 2yo fillies only races. Around and around it goes.
As crazy as it sounds, the VERY WORST thing the owner of a bread and butter 2yo filly can have happen to him early in the season is for that filly to win a race...because, for the rest of the year, whenever opportunities come about for a start that filly will go off in a 2C0/2C1 & give the first starter non winning colts the front line every single time. Effectively, once a moderate 2yo filly wins a race, any race, here in NSW then you may as well send her off to the paddock because you'll spend the rest of the season chasing your tail. Once she comes back at 3yrs and if you're lucky enough to win another one, you may as well retire her to stud because it gets even harder than it was the previous season. Come back at 4yrs and you're a dreamer....you'll get even fewer opportunities for your now mare to race against her own sex.
Of course, getting down to the nitty gritty, ultimately THE BIGGEST SINGLE ISSUE that we have here in NSW is that WE DO NOT HAVE CENTRALISED PROGRAMMING. Instead, we time and time again suffer at the hands of a series of myopic individuals intent on nothing more nor less than maintaining their positions sitting atop various race club dunghills throughout the State. As a result, ultimately nothing changes.
HRNSW needs to seize control of the entire race programming responsibilities in this State and then act in the best interests of the long term viability of the Industry......otherwise this State will become just like WA, a satellite of NZ totally awash with NZ breds at the expense of local breeder/owner/racers. At this juncture it should also be noted that the vast majority of racing owners in Australia, and it is no different here in NSW, are also Breeders. The most recent HRA Breeders Survey confirmed same. In fact the vast majority of Breeders not only in this State but in this Country, breed to race. If HRNSW wishes to kill off both groups then they need do no more than continue to neglect reasonable racing opportunities for 2yo fillies.

[Triple V]

May be a good way to protect the 2yo baby girls from over racing. When they've had a bit more time to grow and race well as 3yo+ you may think that it wasn't such a bad idea after all.

[VVV] G'day Tim. You know, if I knew that it was intentional from the point of view of 'protecting' them or whatever...I wouldn't agree with it mind you...but I could at least understand the thinking behind it and the owners of 2yo fillies could make a genuine attempt to wear it...but the problem is, that is not the case.
Unfortunately there are no altruistic motives involved here. Rather, it is simply the culmination of years of administrative ignorance and neglect.

[murray green]

My mate bred 3 this year.....yep all girls.....not happy Jan !!!

[Triple V]

Nathan

In NSW things are in fact as you desire.

A c5 mare can in fact race as a c3 with a junior. The exception to that is that you cant claim dowm from c1/m1 to co/m0.

What we desperately need IMO is:

1. Ability for fillies/mares to only race fillies/mares throughout their entire career at all levels

2. Special series of mares races for 4yo's.(outside of Breeders crown and statebred series) Once they finish their 3yo careers they are straight away thrown up against seasoned older mares which makes things very tough

If you are lucky enough to get a good filly/mare like I did with Arctic Fire and you get through to say M4 class, then you have to either struggle against the open class boys or go to the breeding barn. The only alternative is to go to the USA where you can race against mares for very good money every week of the year...


[VVV] G'day Harvey,
If I could wave a magic wand I would deliver you all that in a heartbeat however the track records of HRA & the various State bodies do not fill me with any great hope for change. I think an alternative is to quite significantly ramp up 2yo fillies only & 3yo fillies only racing opportunities, the general expectation being that at the end of their 3yo season the majority of them would then retire to stud. IMO such an approach would have numerous inherent +++'s to it. Maybe a bit on the radical side but I firmly believe it would work.

[Old Frank]

Nathan

In NSW things are in fact as you desire.

A c5 mare can in fact race as a c3 with a junior. The exception to that is that you cant claim dowm from c1/m1 to co/m0.

What we desperately need IMO is:

1. Ability for fillies/mares to only race fillies/mares throughout their entire career at all levels

2. Special series of mares races for 4yo's.(outside of Breeders crown and statebred series) Once they finish their 3yo careers they are straight away thrown up against seasoned older mares which makes things very tough

If you are lucky enough to get a good filly/mare like I did with Arctic Fire and you get through to say M4 class, then you have to either struggle against the open class boys or go to the breeding barn. The only alternative is to go to the USA where you can race against mares for very good money every week of the year...


Amen Harvey!

I was once involved with a stable that had 3 runners in a Ladyship Mile (2 runners and an emergency) similar to the level you talk about with Arctic Fire so hence my point earlier, outside of 6 weeks racing against their own sex in the lead-up to get picked for the Ladyship, they have to race for 46 weeks against the boys and they would win their odd race, but week in, week out, they were going super but just found it too tough.

Actually in those years also, their wasn't as many female lead-up races either making it tougher for them!

If you don't cycle these mares correctly in all grades, every week, you are not building a future breeding cycle, anyone that say's different just doesn't get it.

I looked at the Trotguide 2 weeks back and do you know, taking out the feature mares lead-up, plus the trotters race left 6 races and out of those approx. 60 horses, only 6 were mares! Disgraceful.

This is why the fillies (besides the one or two leading lots which are fundamentally brought to try and acheive Futrity success), get the widest of berths at the sales as there is no attraction/potential avenue for success for them.

Two races at Menangle each week - M0-M3 and M3+ for mares only. I stand by it, it should be a must.

Why can Randwick, Rosehill, whatever track hosts metro gallops each week afford a mares only race, is it so hard to programme and support? I think not.

[aussiebreno]

Amen Harvey!

I was once involved with a stable that had 3 runners in a Ladyship Mile (2 runners and an emergency) similar to the level you talk about with Arctic Fire so hence my point earlier, outside of 6 weeks racing against their own sex in the lead-up to get picked for the Ladyship, they have to race for 46 weeks against the boys and they would win their odd race, but week in, week out, they were going super but just found it too tough.

Actually in those years also, their wasn't as many female lead-up races either making it tougher for them!

If you don't cycle these mares correctly in all grades, every week, you are not building a future breeding cycle, anyone that say's different just doesn't get it.

I looked at the Trotguide 2 weeks back and do you know, taking out the feature mares lead-up, plus the trotters race left 6 races and out of those approx. 60 horses, only 6 were mares! Disgraceful.

This is why the fillies (besides the one or two leading lots which are fundamentally brought to try and acheive Futrity success), get the widest of berths at the sales as there is no attraction/potential avenue for success for them.

Two races at Menangle each week - M0-M3 and M3+ for mares only. I stand by it, it should be a must.

Why can Randwick, Rosehill, whatever track hosts metro gallops each week afford a mares only race, is it so hard to programme and support? I think not.
Some M0 only mares are pretty important too imo.

[Daryl New]

Old Frank you are obviously not an industry leader and you will find that all programs outside metronome have co races progrrammed. After all thaws where most horses start their climb to meto class .without these horses to fill tithe fields you have no racing. Not meaning to insult you but to cite obscenely rich menaka Bill Gates and sadly the late Steve JOBS and what you think they would do is a fatuous and insulting to all the owners who obviously don't have your resources . Co,C1, C2 etc racing can be and is exciting and good for the racing product,

[Old Frank]

Old Frank you are obviously not an industry leader and you will find that all programs outside metronome have co races progrrammed. After all thaws where most horses start their climb to meto class .without these horses to fill tithe fields you have no racing. Not meaning to insult you but to cite obscenely rich menaka Bill Gates and sadly the late Steve JOBS and what you think they would do is a fatuous and insulting to all the owners who obviously don't have your resources . Co,C1, C2 etc racing can be and is exciting and good for the racing product,



Daryl,

I am most certainly not an industry leader and mate, we'll beg to differ on CO, C1 and C2 racing.

Whilst yes it is the start of horses climbing the ranks, it's also filled with rubbish who couldn't win a race unless they were Steve Bradbury.

My resources aren't at the level you may seem but I certainly don't aspire to pay up for a horse and consider it winning it's C0 a milestone. Fundamentally I see that as a waste of money and I would rather move the horse on and keep trying to find the potential metro class horse. Obviously this is where you and I differ and your quite comfortable charging your owners to train CO and C1 class champions, good luck with that!

[Danno]

I'm sorry mate, but as awful as this sounds, I couldn't give a shit about C0 racing. If I was an industry leader and I was having to look at adjustments/clauses reconfiguration for C0 racing, fundamentally, I am rewarding mediocrity.

They may be the 'bread and butter' as you put it and yes, I know the perspective your coming from, however all owners should, and in this case more importantly, administrators be aspiring to better the class and standard of metro racing as without successful metro class racing, you won't have a product to sell to the masses/TAB in the future. It's as simple as that.


A vast majority of horses currently racing as C0's/C1's aren't worth two bob and in my opinion again, it's a disgrace that they get punched around lingering on the hope to their trainer and owners that they'll win a race - somewhere, anywhere.



Nathan, can I suggest some maths lessons.
Nothing too hard just think about this.....one race...ten horses...one winner...nine losers!
Do you not stop and think eveyone is constantly trying to improve their stock???.....then revert to the equation above.

[Old Frank]

Nathan, can I suggest some maths lessons.
Nothing too hard just think about this.....one race...ten horses...one winner...nine losers!
Do you not stop and think eveyone is constantly trying to improve their stock???.....then revert to the equation above.




Please feel free to call me a dickhead Danno, but where's the maths lesson?

You've stated the obvious one race, ten horses, etc but I fail to see your correlation to my comments you noted in the 'equation above'.

Again call me a dickhead if you wish.

[clumsy]

Nathan country racing is made up of this grade of horse. To make a living from racing in the country you need to start with the lower grade of pacers race them through to around the C5/C6 grade and then move them on to the metro track in the state where they would be most suitable to continue on with their racing.

[Old Frank]

Fella's,

This thread was about the state of 2yo Fillies races. My fault I digressed this into the terrible state of mares races also, however Mr Daryl New, champion advocate for CO / C1 class digressed into the state of conditioning for CO's.

I've been involved in and around the industry for the better part of my life and yes I acknowledge that's where the majority of racing around the country etc is being classed at but all I'm saying is, to me, I couldn't care less and I'm not interested.

I've never heard an owner say he/she aspires for their horse to win it's CO, but I've heard plenty say they'd love to win a race in town. My original posts pertained to mares racing in metro class.

I'm not here to offend anyone's horse per say', if your paying up for a CO, well that's your business, but I stand by the fact that the majority are rubbish and being punched around on 'hope', nothing more, nothing less.

I should say, if you all want to go to town and hack up my posts regarding CO racing, boys, do your best, but fundamentally whilst advocates push for the C0's to get a better deal, your product is fundamentally shit.

CO's going 2.00/2.01/2.02 or worse and that's supposed to attract a new wave of support to the industry??? Please what a bore. Has anyone taken serious note how much better the spectacle is when a field is running time as oppossed to the punching around of CO's at the provincials/country meets.

If you don't take your metro racing - all grades to another level, you don't improve your overall product in the marketplace and Harness Racing will continue to be the poorest of poor cousins to the gallops and as such, effect betting, social and entertainment dollar spent.

Back on point - Fillies and Mares in this state get the most disgraceful of treatment and racing administrators should hang their heads in shame. John Dumesny was quoted in last week's Trotguide as saying the sales were down to to fields legilation - what a load of bullshit John!

The fillies sold poorly (no bids and passed in/brought back, etc) due to no future past futurity racing at 2 and 3yrs. If there a good mare, but not topliner, they can't make money racing the boys consistently.

[Old Frank]

Some M0 only mares are pretty important too imo.



Don't disagree Brendan. Any mares race permanently scheduled would be a bonus to start with!

[Danno]

Please feel free to call me a dickhead Danno, but where's the maths lesson?

You've stated the obvious one race, ten horses, etc but I fail to see your correlation to my comments you noted in the 'equation above'.

Again call me a dickhead if you wish.

If I thought you were a dickhead Nathan, I would have said so.
The point I was trying to make is that no matter how good ALL the horses are, someone is gunna be a loser 90% of the time.

I don't know anyone who is content to be a loser 90% of the time but that's what is going to happen, Maths Don't Lie!

So therefore, there are going to be some horses that are more competitive in thier career than others..again I don't know anyone whos is actively seeking these horses, but the more horses come through your yard the more of these you will see until they're moved to where they can be competitive or moved out altogether.

To say you couldn't give a shit about C0 racing reveals you are like all of us looking for the better stock, but just a touch of naivety in not acknowledging they all have to start somewhere.

[Greg Hando]

Nathan the fundamentally shit product and it's owner's,trainer's driver's etc are what keep this game going, we all can't have a metro horse or a 2.00 horse to race and the one's being punched around on hope as you put it are keeping us all going,after all to most it is a hobby not a profession. I know of people who just like having a horse in work and being able to go to the races with their family and have a day out and yes they know their horse's are no good but it is their choice, that is what make's our industry a good one to be involved in, anyone can have a go .

[Old Frank]

Nathan the fundamentally shit product and it's owner's,trainer's driver's etc are what keep this game going, we all can't have a metro horse or a 2.00 horse to race and the one's being punched around on hope as you put it are keeping us all going,after all to most it is a hobby not a profession. I know of people who just like having a horse in work and being able to go to the races with their family and have a day out and yes they know their horse's are no good but it is their choice, that is what make's our industry a good one to be involved in, anyone can have a go .




Exactly Greg and then they can all be the ones who consistently whinge that they can't win a race like the majority do like it's their right to do so.

Same old, same old.

[Old Frank]

To say you couldn't give a shit about C0 racing reveals you are like all of us looking for the better stock, but just a touch of naivety in not acknowledging they all have to start somewhere.



No Dan unfortunately we we will still have to agree to disagree.

I personally am not an advocate for 2yr old racing. If I had a good one who could, great, but personally I am of the thinking to give them time and start them at 3.

Therefore in relation to beginning at a CO level, I figure I have my 2 x 3yo class races and then as I recall (certainly been a while since I nominated), my horse becomes a CO class pacer (please correct me if I am wrong?). Yes I understand I could still race in 3yr old class where the conditions were open to a 3yr old with multiple wins, higher class race etc.

If once in this CO-C1 level type grade and my horse is struggling to win, win with ease and relatively consistently, I have to question as to whether I have a potential metro class horse.

I don't give a shit for what the horse does at home and can spin off times etc, etc, it's what it does at the races that counts and therefore, again, if my horse is what I consider struggling to perform at the CO-C1 type level, he/she ain't going to be a metro horse. I've seen plenty of trackwork champions.

Now that's not to say it won't get to an M0 level, it may just take another 3years of punching around to do so. I'm not being naive as you put it, but if I have paid for a horse (let's say a $10,000 yearling), broken in and training fees for a full 3 years, I'm at about $30,000 approx. (I'm being kind on costs), yet I've probably only banked with my 2 3yr old wins, a CO and C1 win, what, say $15,000 (at best) Heaven forbid if you pay up for the further 3yrs on the hope of winning it's M0!

That's called losing a lot of money. Yes horses cost money and I get all the passion/hobby advocates, I've done it previously, but if you lost consistently like that, your not being naive, your plain stupid.

Hence my point why I'm not interested in the CO class racing and potential adjustements etc to grading, as if my horse is good enough, I am of the opinion that it will win money up in it's grades. Again if I feel this horse isn't going to be at the level I want to race at, then I'll move it on, no problems. I'm not obligated to keep punching it around with the masses to make up fields, that's called good money over bad. If people want to advocate C0 racing and consistently punch around rubbish, be my guest but it's not for me is all I'm saying.

[clumsy]

Nathan I understand your situation, as a country owner from the Riverina the horses you sell are usually suitable in our area. I like to buy CO horses from big stables that are performing well but are struggling to win, only buy horses that have run a place and have gone faster than 2.00 on a 1000m track. You can usually buy these well bred horses for 8000/12000 and they do an excellent job on our tracks. Usually buy from Victoria.

[Mitch]

Nathan i am trying to make sense of everything you are quite passionately posting.

Are you suggesting that we scrap lower class racing all together? If so please explain how this will improve the standard of racing or the 'product of racing' as you call it.

Are you suggesting that having more top class, stakes performing horses will result in greater industry participation from all perspectives? That is how I interpret it.... If so please elaborate on how that will be so?

Help me understand your analogy of the computer industry and the harness industry because I don't get it?

[mo cushla]

Getting back to 2yo fillies, if you fluke getting a good one then you can run in the Bathurst Gold Crown on the 31st of March and then travel down to Melbourne and back up at Bendigo on the 7th of April for APG heats. Just another example of the lack of planning shown by the administrators.

[mango]

Getting back to 2yo fillies, if you fluke getting a good one then you can run in the Bathurst Gold Crown on the 31st of March and then travel down to Melbourne and back up at Bendigo on the 7th of April for APG heats. Just another example of the lack of planning shown by the administrators.

Hi Stuart

As there are a lot of fillies who are also eligible for the N.S.W Breeder's Challenge/Vicbred Super Series they same thing happens, N.S.W Breeders final is on the 24/6 and the Vicbred semi's on the 29/6.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Stuart

As there are a lot of fillies who are also eligible for the N.S.W Breeder's Challenge/Vicbred Super Series they same thing happens, N.S.W Breeders final is on the 24/6 and the Vicbred semi's on the 29/6.
Which begs the question...why are they eligible for both.
But the worst programming of all must surely go to the 4yos. There isn't as many feature races as 2yo and 3yos so I can understand the odd clash in those, but theres only a handful of features for 4yos yet they still seem to clash.

[Daryl New]

Nathan
It is quite simple If you dont like CO racing dont bet on it. Re age racing I nave belted my head against a brick wall with Admin of NSWHRC re this subject. Age racing at all tracks is a must with suitable backs on the races. Age racing died for ever when the Sires Stakes were phased out in this State and replaced with a series open to all. The lifeblood of the sport is appropriate remuneration for effort . Just look at the growth of Trotters with the revised Prizemoney distribution for them. It seems everyone has at least one now.

i was devastated when one of my mares threw a filly last year, and anyone who knows me I love fillies, but unless she is exceptional her life as a race horse is short. Has broken in well though so there is a smallray of sunshine.
Am concerned about centralised programming given how the acceptance system works. Nominate under the details of the programme to find after acceptances the conditions have changed. Who really makes decisions about the horses we breed, own and train.
Thrown a lot of other things in there so return to topic, YES races for fillies of all ages, But dont forget the 3yo and 4yo particularly Metre level get my support

[broncobrad]

Jamie, was looking at some of harness racing at Vincennes in France last night and be assured, I am no fan of it. You gallop once and your out, DQ'd and bugger off.
Don't know the first thing about European harness and I don't know if it was a big/special meeting, but I could not help notice the number of fillies and mares that were competing, huge. One race was specifically for 5yo mares (and decent prizemoney). That may be another option for you if you wish to prolong some of your girls racing careers. But, I am sure you would be more well versed than I on this topic.

[Triple V]

I really don't know a whole lot about it myself Brad. You've touched on a verging on age old question though.
I've heard a lot of theories and at times from some very learned/old heads but none of them have ever really properly/fully explained why female Trotters seem to have a far better record when competing against their male counterparts than do female pacers when they're dropped in against their boys.
As far as the reason why there are so many fillies/mares competing in France, hazzarding a pretty fair old guess that it is twofold.
Firstly, it's obvious the French realise & appreciate that approximately 50% of the annual foal crop is comprised of fillies/mares & secondly, I understand they currently have somewhat of an over-supply problem when it comes to foals bred versus numbers required to fill their fields.
In response to that I assume they're encouraging the fillies/mares to race on as opposed to them being retired to the breeding barn.
It is somewhat like the current Australian Federal Government is doing everything they can to keep High School Students at school as opposed to them leaving in year 10 & ending up adding to the Youth Unemployed figures.
The difference between the two is that the motives of the French in keeping their fillies & mares racing on for longer are without any shadow of a doubt totally altruistic in nature, I am certain that mean well, very much so.
On the other hand, those of the current Federal Government re: 16yo+ students remaining at school for longer & so essentially orbiting the halls in a holding pattern...well, let's just say that they are very questionable to say the least. Cop that Bill Shorten.

[aussiebreno]

I really don't know a whole lot about it myself Brad. You've touched on a verging on age old question though.
I've heard a lot of theories and at times from some very learned/old heads but none of them have ever really properly/fully explained why female Trotters seem to have a far better record when competing against their male counterparts than do female pacers when they're dropped in against their boys.
As far as the reason why there are so many fillies/mares competing in France, hazzarding a pretty fair old guess that it is twofold.
Firstly, it's obvious the French realise & appreciate that approximately 50% of the annual foal crop is comprised of fillies/mares & secondly, I understand they currently have somewhat of an over-supply problem when it comes to foals bred versus numbers required to fill their fields.
In response to that I assume they're encouraging the fillies/mares to race on as opposed to them being retired to the breeding barn.
It is somewhat like the current Australian Federal Government is doing everything they can to keep High School Students at school as opposed to them leaving in year 10 & ending up adding to the Youth Unemployed figures.
The difference between the two is that the motives of the French in keeping their fillies & mares racing on for longer are without any shadow of a doubt totally altruistic in nature, I am certain that mean well, very much so.
On the other hand, those of the current Federal Government re: 16yo+ students remaining at school for longer & so essentially orbiting the halls in a holding pattern...well, let's just say that they are very questionable to say the least. Cop that Bill Shorten.
Do those staying in school that shouldn't be there drag the others down? I believe so. Possibly it would be better letting them drop out and letting others flourish rather than be dragged down..

[broncobrad]

Brenno, thought you must have got washed away out there. Are you affected by the floods?

[aussiebreno]

Brenno, thought you must have got washed away out there. Are you affected by the floods?
I'm right up on a hill on the other side of town from the River, if I'm gone there's no more Wagga!!! So yes pretty safe where I am fortanately.
I'd daresay Yirribee Stud is/will be under, while some trainers properties will also be under. I know one trainer who's track went under 16-18months ago, upgraded it and now it's under again. It's not a great situation at all - horses were up and racing as well not sure if they've been able to work them elsewhere either. I'm thinking the houses should be safe but not 100% sure.