What's Our Future in NSW

[Greg Hando]

Heard today that in NSW there will be a cut of 54 meeting's in the next season 12/13 .
Has anybody else heard, what's the reasoning behind it ?

[mango]

Hi Greg

I have heard the same thing, i also heard the Gallops are having some of there meeting's cut. Not sure as to how much truth is behind it ????

[tiny]

Hi Greg
Don't look at this move by Sam and his team badly it is probably one of the best moves he's made. The 54 meetings removed will all be restricted meetings the lowest form of racing known to man.

For harness racing to move forward the sport needs to profesionalize removing the favored meetings of the weekend worrier trainer is a smart move to wipe them out. Just take a look at the last a bulli and you will know what I mean. People who can't count past four are not a good look.

[Daryl New]

Hello Andy
If you dont like restricted meetings, Dont bet on them. Simple as that. Personally I will only race there if they are down the road, because they are not value for effort.
With regard to your comment "weekend worrier trainer ", please dont insult part time professionals who supply the fields that make up the harness racing product. Many of them are more professional than the so called "Professionals" who keep coming up with positive swabs. Possibly the recent sales were down because these were the professionals who stayed away through a lack of confidence in the current state of the industry

[TSW]

Probably to make way for the prizemoney increases. Deleting the restricted meetings should make dog food cheaper as the knackeries will be doing booming business.

[aussiebreno]

Hi Greg
Don't look at this move by Sam and his team badly it is probably one of the best moves he's made. The 54 meetings removed will all be restricted meetings the lowest form of racing known to man.

For harness racing to move forward the sport needs to profesionalize removing the favored meetings of the weekend worrier trainer is a smart move to wipe them out. Just take a look at the last a bulli and you will know what I mean. People who can't count past four are not a good look.
In criticising those who can't count past four it would have been a good idea, either as a professional or a weekend warrior, to get spelling right and give pronouns a capital.
The winners have to beat somebody - not everybody can claim trainers premierships. I imagine some of these 54 meetings may include meetings from Leeton, Temora, Albury etc. Those places get more of a crowd to one meeting than Menangle/Melton would get to 20 meetings. Let's drive away all those fans...
You can have your premier competition (eg Menangle/AFL/NRL) work alongside amateurs (eg Temora/country footy leagues). You don't need to get rid of amateurs to be professional.

[The Form Student]

Hi Greg
Don't look at this move by Sam and his team badly it is probably one of the best moves he's made. The 54 meetings removed will all be restricted meetings the lowest form of racing known to man.

For harness racing to move forward the sport needs to profesionalize removing the favored meetings of the weekend worrier trainer is a smart move to wipe them out. Just take a look at the last a bulli and you will know what I mean. People who can't count past four are not a good look.

That will do me...........that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard!!!!!.......do this and you virtually kill the sport completely.......these "weekend warriors" are what keeps this game alive.........there are not a lot of people making a living out of harness racing.......Please have a look at the below post regarding the Blayney meeting held recently.........a lot of these tracks and meetings are looked after by volunteers and they are still going........some have dropped out, because financial support was not forthcoming..........!!!!!!!!!. your comment can't be serious!

Re mistaking the laps at Bulli, it won't be the first or the last.......your memory must be short because a little over 12 months ago, GARY HALL JR, MISTOOK THE LAPS.........HE IS DRIVING THE 1/1 FAVOURITE IN THIS WEEKS ID FINAL.

Looking Back


I think everyone left Blayney last Saturday feeling that the meeting had been a success.
Haven't seen the official figures but have been told that the Tote held over $12,000 on the day, the bookies held over $10,000. Gate was $1,300 and the canteen took in $2,100 running out of everything just prior to the last.
Heard some comments during the day that there were more people at Blayney than at Menangle the previous night and that the crowd was bigger than most Wednesdays at Bathurst. The racing was a bit rough and ready which is to be expected with the grade of horses competing, but a few good ones showed everyone how it should be done :)
Everyone is now excited about the upcoming Carnival of Cups meeting where the increased prizemoney will see better horses making the journey to Blayney.

[Triple V]

G'day Steve,
In Jnr's defence, there have in fact been quite a few drivers over the years that have mistaken a longer race for a shorter one. Without naming names one of the long-time leading reinsman/trainers from Tassie has done it as for that matter has one of the, without any doubt, all-time great drivers from VIC. Those two guys would definitely be in the Australian Harness Racing Horseman's Hall Of Fame if we had one. It can happen, even to the best of them.

[murray green]

That will do me...........that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard!!!!!.......do this and you virtually kill the sport completely.......these "weekend warriors" are what keeps this game alive.........there are not a lot of people making a living out of harness racing.......Please have a look at the below post regarding the Blayney meeting held recently.........a lot of these tracks and meetings are looked after by volunteers and they are still going........some have dropped out, because financial support was not forthcoming..........!!!!!!!!!. your comment can't be serious!

Re mistaking the laps at Bulli, it won't be the first or the last.......your memory must be short because a little over 12 months ago, GARY HALL JR, MISTOOK THE LAPS.........HE IS DRIVING THE 1/1 FAVOURITE IN THIS WEEKS ID FINAL.

Looking Back


I think everyone left Blayney last Saturday feeling that the meeting had been a success.
Haven't seen the official figures but have been told that the Tote held over $12,000 on the day, the bookies held over $10,000. Gate was $1,300 and the canteen took in $2,100 running out of everything just prior to the last.
Heard some comments during the day that there were more people at Blayney than at Menangle the previous night and that the crowd was bigger than most Wednesdays at Bathurst. The racing was a bit rough and ready which is to be expected with the grade of horses competing, but a few good ones showed everyone how it should be done :)
Everyone is now excited about the upcoming Carnival of Cups meeting where the increased prizemoney will see better horses making the journey to Blayney.

IMO most are over Tinys work on here , not many agree with his writings of utter crap .

[The Form Student]

G'day Steve,
In Jnr's defence, there have in fact been quite a few drivers over the years that have mistaken a longer race for a shorter one. Without naming names one of the long-time leading reinsman/trainers from Tassie has done it as for that matter has one of the, without any doubt, all-time great drivers from VIC. Those two guys would definitely be in the Australian Harness Racing Horseman's Hall Of Fame if we had one. It can happen, even to the best of them.

Triple......The quote from tiny was referring to the driver who mistook the laps in the Trotters in the last race at Bulli on Saturday night........my point was that any driver can do this and mentioned the topical driver of the moment G Hall JR!

I don't know the driver personally, but they are a battling trainer of well over 25 years and has had limited success, but they keep trying and coming back.........they were always asking questions to find ways to improve........on a few occasions they would speak to the late John Binskin about their horse in a trial, and he would give advise freely about ways to improve etc........everybody is continually learning no matter what level they are at! I am sure the driver is embarrassed about the situation.......and the stewards will find accordingly!

[Triple V]

Ok. I've misread who said what. Sorry.

[The Form Student]

I watched the race on Sky live and immediately saw the laps had been mistaken, as had Fred Hastings, the caller, but he did not make a big deal about! What a great diplomat for the sport! These things do happen!

[Greg Hando]

Hi Greg
Don't look at this move by Sam and his team badly it is probably one of the best moves he's made. The 54 meetings removed will all be restricted meetings the lowest form of racing known to man.

For harness racing to move forward the sport needs to profesionalize removing the favored meetings of the weekend worrier trainer is a smart move to wipe them out. Just take a look at the last a bulli and you will know what I mean. People who can't count past four are not a good look.

I can't say on here what i think of your comment Tiny for i would be barred but in a nutshell your comment is bordering on stupidity IMO . How many professional's are there in the sport in NSW ? What keep's the game going here is the hobbyist and the die hard supporter's that like to watch and train their horse race regardless of the class.

[broncobrad]

Just adding my two cents, and I've said it before, in country NSW the grassroots does not deserved to be shunned, just because the the metropolitan people want to be more professional. The smaller towns turn out in droves for their better meetings and when the big boys turn up to 'steal' the money the locals always give a good account of themselves. I am gutted that I no longer have a little track to attend anymore since leaving the central west 15 years ago but I still enjoy watching those little meetings via Sky. Go the country meetings!!! And go Blayney!!!

[Danno]

Hi Greg
Don't look at this move by Sam and his team badly it is probably one of the best moves he's made. The 54 meetings removed will all be restricted meetings the lowest form of racing known to man.

For harness racing to move forward the sport needs to profesionalize removing the favored meetings of the weekend worrier trainer is a smart move to wipe them out. Just take a look at the last a bulli and you will know what I mean. People who can't count past four are not a good look.

G'day Andy,
you are entitled to your opinion and, like everyone else you are fully entitled to voice that opinion.

As a long term hobbyist in this game I was appalled at your immeasurably narrow minded views about who are worthy participants in this game and who should be "wiped out".

I believe the subsequent responses to your beautifully articulated rant have adequately answered the shortcomings of your views.

Good luck with the leadership aspirations Tiny, can I suggest your wasting your time but keep at it mate!!

Cheers,

Dan

[tiny]

I sorry that most of you don't like what i’m saying. Harness racing is facing some tough times ahead and at the end of the day harness racing is a business and the racing is the product they sell. It is simple if harness racing doesn't grow its betting turnover, it will go bust. I can understand the emotion attached.
The comment by Daryl New that if you don’t like it don’t bet on it, is not good enough. Betting turnover can’t grow if the punters don’t like the product. So It is more of a case if you don’t like it its got to improve or be got rid of.
Daryl also wrote don’t bag the people that make up the fields and this only highlights the problem, if there are people or horses that are only going around week in week out to make up numbers is a problem. No one will back a horse they have never herd of with bad form that is trained a driven by some bloke that has a nine to five job and drives or trains a horse after work. Get half a dozen of these in a race and the punter doesn’t punt.
As a punter there are four things I follow, Horses, trainers, drivers and form if I look at a race and don’t know any names and nothing obvious in the form you don’t punt.
In recent time harness racing has had its share of integrity issues again causing a lack of trust in the product. Because the industry is so large and fragmented makes it hard to be correctly regulated.
I have wrote this before but the number of trainers must be reduced if harness racing had 10 trainers in Sydney with about 70-80 horses each regulation would be simple there would be better name recognition and plenty of quality horses to make up fields. The same can be said about drivers although more than ten are required.
As much as it is a hard decision to make it is for the better of the sport and doing away with the restricted meetings is a good one and a good step towards a stronger future.
The comment I made earlier about the Bulli race was wrong in the way it targeted one person but the point was all drivers have shockers but the part time ones have more than the ones that drive all the time.
PS sorry about the spelling I was never very good at it. But must also add I have never commented on anyone’s spelling ever. So I can’t spell but I’m not a hypocrite.

[aussiebreno]

I sorry that most of you don't like what i’m saying. Harness racing is facing some tough times ahead and at the end of the day harness racing is a business and the racing is the product they sell. It is simple if harness racing doesn't grow its betting turnover, it will go bust. I can understand the emotion attached.
The comment by Daryl New that if you don’t like it don’t bet on it, is not good enough. Betting turnover can’t grow if the punters don’t like the product. So It is more of a case if you don’t like it its got to improve or be got rid of.
Daryl also wrote don’t bag the people that make up the fields and this only highlights the problem, if there are people or horses that are only going around week in week out to make up numbers is a problem. No one will back a horse they have never herd of with bad form that is trained a driven by some bloke that has a nine to five job and drives or trains a horse after work. Get half a dozen of these in a race and the punter doesn’t punt.
As a punter there are four things I follow, Horses, trainers, drivers and form if I look at a race and don’t know any names and nothing obvious in the form you don’t punt.
In recent time harness racing has had its share of integrity issues again causing a lack of trust in the product. Because the industry is so large and fragmented makes it hard to be correctly regulated.
I have wrote this before but the number of trainers must be reduced if harness racing had 10 trainers in Sydney with about 70-80 horses each regulation would be simple there would be better name recognition and plenty of quality horses to make up fields. The same can be said about drivers although more than ten are required.
As much as it is a hard decision to make it is for the better of the sport and doing away with the restricted meetings is a good one and a good step towards a stronger future.
The comment I made earlier about the Bulli race was wrong in the way it targeted one person but the point was all drivers have shockers but the part time ones have more than the ones that drive all the time.
PS sorry about the spelling I was never very good at it. But must also add I have never commented on anyone’s spelling ever. So I can’t spell but I’m not a hypocrite.

You can still have your professionals but not at the expense of amateurs.
10 pros and 10 amateurs are better than 10 pros and no amateurs.

[The Form Student]

Tiny, let's talk hypothetically now, would you like to nominate the 10 professional trainers who would head your list at the moment???

[racefair]

I sorry that most of you don't like what i’m saying. Harness racing is facing some tough times ahead and at the end of the day harness racing is a business and the racing is the product they sell. It is simple if harness racing doesn't grow its betting turnover, it will go bust. I can understand the emotion attached.
The comment by Daryl New that if you don’t like it don’t bet on it, is not good enough. Betting turnover can’t grow if the punters don’t like the product. So It is more of a case if you don’t like it its got to improve or be got rid of.
Daryl also wrote don’t bag the people that make up the fields and this only highlights the problem, if there are people or horses that are only going around week in week out to make up numbers is a problem. No one will back a horse they have never herd of with bad form that is trained a driven by some bloke that has a nine to five job and drives or trains a horse after work. Get half a dozen of these in a race and the punter doesn’t punt.
As a punter there are four things I follow, Horses, trainers, drivers and form if I look at a race and don’t know any names and nothing obvious in the form you don’t punt.
In recent time harness racing has had its share of integrity issues again causing a lack of trust in the product. Because the industry is so large and fragmented makes it hard to be correctly regulated.
I have wrote this before but the number of trainers must be reduced if harness racing had 10 trainers in Sydney with about 70-80 horses each regulation would be simple there would be better name recognition and plenty of quality horses to make up fields. The same can be said about drivers although more than ten are required.
As much as it is a hard decision to make it is for the better of the sport and doing away with the restricted meetings is a good one and a good step towards a stronger future.
The comment I made earlier about the Bulli race was wrong in the way it targeted one person but the point was all drivers have shockers but the part time ones have more than the ones that drive all the time.
PS sorry about the spelling I was never very good at it. But must also add I have never commented on anyone’s spelling ever. So I can’t spell but I’m not a hypocrite.


CENTRALISED MODEL
So Andy, you are selling the idea of a centralised model. I've got a few questions for you after you nominate your ideal top 10.
1. How can every horse in a race have good form? What do you define as good form? Are you talking about runners having less variation i.e. more consistency in their form?
2. If you've got only 10 trainers then it's likely that many of them will have mutiple runners in a 10 horse race. The punters by your comments will have a new challenge on which horse to pick. i.e. like the challenge at the moment when Luke McCarthy has 3 or 4 runners in a race. Are they going to be put off when the favoured runner from the stable loses?
3. What similar sport has your suggested model worked in?

[tiny]

Tiny, let's talk hypothetically now, would you like to nominate the 10 professional trainers who would head your list at the moment???

Hypothetically speaking I would like to see Luke McCarthy cloned ten times an take all of the top ten positions. He is every thing and more than you would expect from a professional trainer.

He presents his horses well
They always run to expectation
He presents himself well with the media marketing himself and his sponcers at every opportunity.
And the fact he doesn't punt or allow his staff to punt is an added bonus.

In a time when harness racing was not scared of its own shadow Luke would be marketed better by the industry similar to the way Chris Gleeson was in the 90s.

[The Form Student]

Hypothetically speaking I would like to see Luke McCarthy cloned ten times an take all of the top ten positions. He is every thing and more than you would expect from a professional trainer.

He presents his horses well
They always run to expectation
He presents himself well with the media marketing himself and his sponcers at every opportunity.
And the fact he doesn't punt or allow his staff to punt is an added bonus.

In a time when harness racing was not scared of its own shadow Luke would be marketed better by the industry similar to the way Chris Gleeson was in the 90s.

Tiny, if I did not know better, I would think you are pulling my leg.......but I know your not........I was going to suggest for you L Mc X 10, but I waited for you to reply.........What if he gets sick or suspended, or has a positive swab......what will happen to Harness Racing?...........As a punter, I hate good horses and big races....you can find more winners at better prices in the "penny dreadful" events........you just have to dig a little deeper.........I like Luke Mcarthy also, but he can't carry Harness Racing on his own shoulders.........He does do a good job, and I like his manner and no BS approach........he has other trainers and drivers wondering what to do next.......but in general his horses are a short price...........this does not do the sport any good either......more competitive racing is better for the sport.......owners are queuing up to give him horses, that's why he has multiple runners in each race....... he can't take all the horses out their to train..........I like finding something to beat him, it it happens i get good odds!............Stick with Luke, you will find the winner more often than not!!!!!

[aussiebreno]

Hypothetically speaking I would like to see Luke McCarthy cloned ten times an take all of the top ten positions. He is every thing and more than you would expect from a professional trainer.

He presents his horses well
They always run to expectation
He presents himself well with the media marketing himself and his sponcers at every opportunity.
And the fact he doesn't punt or allow his staff to punt is an added bonus.

In a time when harness racing was not scared of its own shadow Luke would be marketed better by the industry similar to the way Chris Gleeson was in the 90s.

In 30 years who then takes over training from the 10 trainers when they are all ageing??? No-one has been groomed or allowed to learn the trade.

Luke McCarthy wouldn't have been around to be a top10 trainer, his old man may still have been out bush as a butcher (John was a butcher by trade IIRC) in NSW if you were in charge of any harness admin and your main man Luke never would have got the oppurtunity.
Tiny give it a break.

[tiny]

CENTRALISED MODEL
So Andy, you are selling the idea of a centralised model. I've got a few questions for you after you nominate your ideal top 10.
1. How can every horse in a race have good form? What do you define as good form? Are you talking about runners having less variation i.e. more consistency in their form?
2. If you've got only 10 trainers then it's likely that many of them will have mutiple runners in a 10 horse race. The punters by your comments will have a new challenge on which horse to pick. i.e. like the challenge at the moment when Luke McCarthy has 3 or 4 runners in a race. Are they going to be put off when the favoured runner from the stable loses?
3. What similar sport has your suggested model worked in?

So onto the top ten:
Luke McCarthy
Paul Fitzpatric
Blake Fitzpatric
Peter Russo
Steve Turnbull
Darin Hancock
Robie Morris / Kerriann
David Thorn
Next two are up for grabs but I would like to see Todd or Andy McCarthy make there way to Nsw as well.

The point if every horse having good form is not sensible. To have good betting races you want consistently performing horses with mixed form. Not runners with picket fences that start at $1.10 and not horses with a nest of duck eggs that start at $200. I'm talking open races of consistant horses.

Trainers with multiple runners in races is only a problem when they team drive. When Luke had multiple runner I take the quinela or trifecta an quite often get up.

I think the centralized model has served the TB industry well most horses in work are attached to a track or training facility making stable inspections and monitoring of trackwork easy. You must admit the TB haven't had the integrity issues that harness have had.

I would love to here some other people's ideas to improve harness racing as well as shooting mine down.

[tiny]

If Luke gets suspended or sick you just do what everyone does and transfer the horses to a family member stable Forman however.

[aussiebreno]

So onto the top ten:
Luke McCarthy
Paul Fitzpatric
Blake Fitzpatric
Peter Russo
Steve Turnbull
Darin Hancock
Robie Morris / Kerriann How did Turner get into the sport? Oh her father Ray. But you want to say Ray get stuffed you can't train. No more Kerry Ann in the industry champ.
David Thorn
Next two are up for grabs but I would like to see Todd or Andy McCarthy make there way to Nsw as well.

The point if every horse having good form is not sensible. To have good betting races you want consistently performing horses with mixed form. Not runners with picket fences that start at $1.10 and not horses with a nest of duck eggs that start at $200. I'm talking open races of consistant horses.

Trainers with multiple runners in races is only a problem when they team drive. When Luke had multiple runner I take the quinela or trifecta an quite often get up.

I think the centralized model has served the TB industry well most horses in work are attached to a track or training facility making stable inspections and monitoring of trackwork easy. You must admit the TB haven't had the integrity issues that harness have had.

I would love to here some other people's ideas to improve harness racing as well as shooting mine down.

Your idea is ludicrous. You don't make ideas for the sake of it.

[The Form Student]

So onto the top ten:
Luke McCarthy
Paul Fitzpatric
Blake Fitzpatric
Peter Russo
Steve Turnbull
Darin Hancock
Robie Morris / Kerriann
David Thorn
Next two are up for grabs but I would like to see Todd or Andy McCarthy make there way to Nsw as well.

The point if every horse having good form is not sensible. To have good betting races you want consistently performing horses with mixed form. Not runners with picket fences that start at $1.10 and not horses with a nest of duck eggs that start at $200. I'm talking open races of consistant horses.

Trainers with multiple runners in races is only a problem when they team drive. When Luke had multiple runner I take the quinela or trifecta an quite often get up.

I think the centralized model has served the TB industry well most horses in work are attached to a track or training facility making stable inspections and monitoring of trackwork easy. You must admit the TB haven't had the integrity issues that harness have had.

I would love to here some other people's ideas to improve harness racing as well as shooting mine down.

On your list you will find that most are descendants of trotting families.....the passing on of the knowledge and skills down the line........harness racing needs to attract and give opportunities to the new unkowns, and give them a level playing field to compete against these families........some do fight their way through........if you want better racing, encourage more people into the sport and the results should follow........but it will take time........and who is doing something about it.....I don't see advertised, training and driving courses for new aspirants.......where is the promotion.......Get some trainers and drivers to help visit schools or hold courses...........However, it is a simple model at the moment, go over to NZ and buy performed horses.........., as long as you have the money......you are halfway there!

[Danno]

The more you guys humour this troglodyte the worse he's gunna get

[The Form Student]

The more you guys humour this troblodyte the worse he's gunna get

Danno, I think tiny is more like the "one-eyed" footy fan.........L Mc is carving them up at the moment........and he wants to win also........he may work for the stable or knows someone who does........at least he stands up for his view.....I won't take that away from him!

[Danno]

Danno, I think tiny is more like the "one-eyed" footy fan.........L Mc is carving them up at the moment........and he wants to win also........he may work for the stable or knows someone who does........at least he stands up for his view.....I won't take that away from him!

To a certain degree you're right Steve, I'm just not conviced that there is anything of any real value being gained for anyone other than our learned friend here, thats all. Personally I don't even find it funny, and thats saying something 'cos I can usually get a cackle out of ALMOST anything!

[The Form Student]

Take your point, no more for me to say on the subject...........

[The Form Student]

You like humour........did you like my best bet for Bankstown trots thread today........tell me it was funny?

[Danno]

Thought the other half of your quinella was extremely unlucky not to have been able to leave the gate yesterday.. would certainly have paid off if not for this small infraction.

[The Form Student]

Thought the other half of your quinella was extremely unlucky not to have been able to leave the gate yesterday.. would certainly have paid off if not for this small infraction.

No, Im Tilly Devine.......don't you watch Underbelly............the madam from Kings X & Beaver........thought they were the topical quinella for the race!

[Danno]

No, Our Tilly Devine.......don't you watch Underbelly............the madam from the Kings X & Beaver........thought they were the topical quinella for the race!

you got me in, I dont watch a lot of telly....I had two hundred on that 'nella 'cos i thought you were fair dinkum !!! ha ha

[The Form Student]

There was even a Madam Devine in the 2YO........looks like trots fans watch Underbelly! Why I wonder????

[Danno]

There was even a Madam Tilly in the 2YO........looks like trots fans watch Underbelly! Why I wonder????

Aspirations? Tips? Catch up family history?

[The Form Student]

Aspirations? Tips? Catch up family history?

Yes all of those!........plus keep in touch with friends etc!

[Danno]

Yes all of those!........plus keep in touch with friends etc!

Any coincidence with the venue Steve? I think its a dead giveaway meself!

[Greg Hando]

Back on track
State wide losing 54 meeting's
Metro incl Bulli and HRNSW@TPC 18,Bankstown-11 down from 20 & 21
Hunter and north west - 4 - 2 each from Newc and Tam
Western District's - 10 - Dubbo 3,Orange 2 and Parkes 5
South West & Riverina - 9- Junee 3, Temora 3,Wagga 3 and Young 2
But gaining 2 extra at Goulburn.
Goulburn is being classed as 1/2 Metro and 1/2 South west and Riverina gaining 2 in 2013 from 8 to 10

[The Form Student]

Any coincidence with the venue Steve? I think its a dead giveaway meself!

No coincidence, this is reality at its best......we have kept this forum going all night......just had someone thanks us for the entertainment!........Tomorrow could be a different scenario.........what is around the corner!........back to reality!

[The Form Student]

Back on track
State wide losing 54 meeting's
Metro incl Bulli and HRNSW@TPC 18,Bankstown-11
Hunter and north west - 4 2 each from Newc and Tam
Western District's - 10 Dubbo 3,Orange 2 and Parkes 5
Riverina - 9 Junee 3, Temora 3,Wagga 3 and Young 2

Interesting!.......maybe the PR dept at HRNSW should fill us in with the reason...........that is a lot of prizemoney and meetings to lose.....when the TAB were aiming to have as many meetings as pssible..........maybe Turfontein will get all these meetings!

[Danno]

Back on track
State wide losing 54 meeting's
Metro incl Bulli and HRNSW@TPC 18,Bankstown-11 down from 20 & 21
Hunter and north west - 4 - 2 each from Newc and Tam
Western District's - 10 - Dubbo 3,Orange 2 and Parkes 5
South West & Riverina - 9- Junee 3, Temora 3,Wagga 3 and Young 2
But gaining 2 extra at Goulburn.
Goulburn is being classed as 1/2 Metro and 1/2 South west and Riverina gaining 2 in 2013 from 8 to 10

Bloody Hell!,
thats sobering, this will no doubt be a direct result of the integrity issues facing NSW. I can't remember the last time this much money was taken out of circulation.
If my rough calculations are correct something like $1.7M in prizemoney ( thats if the majority are restricted fronts).

[Greg Hando]

I wonder if the bookmaker case( corporates ) isn't going to achieve what they thought it would or they are just broke .The participant's are taking a cut i wonder if the HRNSW office's will do the same and spread it around.

[Danno]

I wonder if the bookmaker case( corporates ) isn't going to achieve what they thought it would or they are just broke .The participant's are taking a cut i wonder if the HRNSW office's will do the same and spread it around.

One thing they are surely going to address is the Menangle Metro meetings, since they changed to Saturday nights the turnover has nosedived!!
Is someone alseep at the wheel or just unable to admit this is not working?
Don't get me wrong there is more to our woes than this one thing but it's another nail in the coffin as far as I can see.

Can we wait till they nail all the bastards involved in pay to play?can we wait till the confidence of the public is restored? It's not looking real flash thats for sure.

The yearling sales took a massive hit recently and this is a gutbuster on top of that.

[Daryl New]

I sorry that most of you don't like what i’m saying. Harness racing is facing some tough times ahead and at the end of the day harness racing is a business and the racing is the product they sell. It is simple if harness racing doesn't grow its betting turnover, it will go bust. I can understand the emotion attached.
The comment by Daryl New that if you don’t like it don’t bet on it, is not good enough. Betting turnover can’t grow if the punters don’t like the product. So It is more of a case if you don’t like it its got to improve or be got rid of.
Daryl also wrote don’t bag the people that make up the fields and this only highlights the problem, if there are people or horses that are only going around week in week out to make up numbers is a problem. No one will back a horse they have never herd of with bad form that is trained a driven by some bloke that has a nine to five job and drives or trains a horse after work. Get half a dozen of these in a race and the punter doesn’t punt.
As a punter there are four things I follow, Horses, trainers, drivers and form if I look at a race and don’t know any names and nothing obvious in the form you don’t punt.
In recent time harness racing has had its share of integrity issues again causing a lack of trust in the product. Because the industry is so large and fragmented makes it hard to be correctly regulated.
I have wrote this before but the number of trainers must be reduced if harness racing had 10 trainers in Sydney with about 70-80 horses each regulation would be simple there would be better name recognition and plenty of quality horses to make up fields. The same can be said about drivers although more than ten are required.
As much as it is a hard decision to make it is for the better of the sport and doing away with the restricted meetings is a good one and a good step towards a stronger future.
The comment I made earlier about the Bulli race was wrong in the way it targeted one person but the point was all drivers have shockers but the part time ones have more than the ones that drive all the time.
PS sorry about the spelling I was never very good at it. But must also add I have never commented on anyone’s spelling ever. So I can’t spell but I’m not a hypocrite.

Tiny what are your KPIs ( Key Performance Indicators ) or criteria to be rated professional ? With regard to product growth, it cannot be achieved while we are held in such low regard, so called professionals are recidivists and continue to corrupt the industry, and they are not all part time trainers, while the powers to be make decisions to cater for the single i nterest groups etc.
Don't worry about the spelling no one bothers anymore just read text messages

[aussiebreno]

One thing they are surely going to address is the Menangle Metro meetings, since they changed to Saturday nights the turnover has nosedived!!
Is someone alseep at the wheel or just unable to admit this is not working?
Don't get me wrong there is more to our woes than this one thing but it's another nail in the coffin as far as I can see.

Can we wait till they nail all the bastards involved in pay to play?can we wait till the confidence of the public is restored? It's not looking real flash thats for sure.

The yearling sales took a massive hit recently and this is a gutbuster on top of that.
The first few races from Menanlge can sort of piggyback off the Saturday races...but why on earth is the Ladyship Mile at 10.15. You gotta help yourself, one of the best races of the night to punt on with a considerable amount of line form yet its on too bloody late.

[Danno]

The first few races from Menanlge can sort of piggyback off the Saturday races...but why on earth is the Ladyship Mile at 10.15. You gotta help yourself, one of the best races of the night to punt on with a considerable amount of line form yet its on too bloody late.

Thanks Brenno,
mate I'm aware of the strategy for Menangle taking the Saturday meetings, I'm also aware that so far it has been a huge failure. I don't see any piggy back benefits and overall turnover is down considerably on what it was on Fridays.

[mightymo]

Thanks Brenno,
mate I'm aware of the strategy for Menangle taking the Saturday meetings, I'm also aware that so far it has been a huge failure. I don't see any piggy back benefits and overall turnover is down considerably on what it was on Fridays.

I dont dispute that turnover is down or that Fri night was better. However, I think you underestimate the amount that is being bet on fixed odds. It is huge...

[aussiebreno]

Thanks Brenno,
mate I'm aware of the strategy for Menangle taking the Saturday meetings, I'm also aware that so far it has been a huge failure. I don't see any piggy back benefits and overall turnover is down considerably on what it was on Fridays.
Uh, that post was more-so about the Ladyship Mile being at 10.15 than in regards to the benefit of Sat V Fri which I've taken no interest in - sorry you've taken it that way.
But point stands, I think you will find that the earlier races (where we are piggybacking of people already being in the TAB for the thoroughbreds) have more turnover. Whether that means Saturday is better than Friday I'm not weighing into.

[William]

I dont dispute that turnover is down or that Fri night was better. However, I think you underestimate the amount that is being bet on fixed odds. It is huge...
How much exactly Harvey? When this was discussed on harnesslist, the consensus was that TAB fixed odds turnover is around 15% of tote win pool turnover. Do you think that number is incorrect now?

[Danno]

I dont dispute that turnover is down or that Fri night was better. However, I think you underestimate the amount that is being bet on fixed odds. It is huge...

Agree entirely Harvey, but the moment we went to Saturdays at Menangle the turnover dropped off, it seems too much of a coincidence that all of that lost turnover went to the corporates.

[Gtrain]

Agree entirely Harvey, but the moment we went to Saturdays at Menangle the turnover dropped off, it seems too much of a coincidence that all of that lost turnover went to the corporates.

I dont think Harvey is saying all this money goes to corporates. There has been a drastic increase in the number of races covered by TAB Fixed Odds and the industry recieves a far smaller kick back out of this turnover.

[Danno]

I dont think Harvey is saying all this money goes to corporates. There has been a drastic increase in the number of races covered by TAB Fixed Odds and the industry recieves a far smaller kick back out of this turnover.

Thanks Grant, in that case was the greater number of TAB fixed odds races implemented at the same time Menangle went to Saturdays?

I know I was watching Menangles turnover fairly closely during the change to saturdays as, being from the Hunter I was a bit ticked off we lost our Saturday meetings to Menangle ( which we had been PUSHED to 25 years ago) after spending all these years making Saturdays work for us.

Menangle is not holding anything like it used to on Fridays and if thats because the TAB has changed its strategy on fixed odds or for whatever reason then wouldn't you think the people in HRNSW would be up to admitting it's not working and do a rethink instead of watching turnover go down the gurgler?

[mightymo]

Thanks Grant, in that case was the greater number of TAB fixed odds races implemented at the same time Menangle went to Saturdays?

I know I was watching Menangles turnover fairly closely during the change to saturdays as, being from the Hunter I was a bit ticked off we lost our Saturday meetings to Menangle ( which we had been PUSHED to 25 years ago) after spending all these years making Saturdays work for us.

Menangle is not holding anything like it used to on Fridays and if thats because the TAB has changed its strategy on fixed odds or for whatever reason then wouldn't you think the people in HRNSW would be up to admitting it's not working and do a rethink instead of watching turnover go down the gurgler?

the whole turnover thing is getting worse as the pools get smaller, anybody wanting to have more than a $10 bet is taking fixed odds as otherwise they affect the dividend.

The reality is that these days the maount of people that are in the TAB having a bet is vastly down on what it used to be. Instead, people are at home and betting over the internet, and in most cases they are taking fixed odds.

[clumsy]

Back on track
State wide losing 54 meeting's
Metro incl Bulli and HRNSW@TPC 18,Bankstown-11 down from 20 & 21
Hunter and north west - 4 - 2 each from Newc and Tam
Western District's - 10 - Dubbo 3,Orange 2 and Parkes 5
South West & Riverina - 9- Junee 3, Temora 3,Wagga 3 and Young 2
But gaining 2 extra at Goulburn.
Goulburn is being classed as 1/2 Metro and 1/2 South west and Riverina gaining 2 in 2013 from 8 to 10

"Newcastle Saturday night Mr Sam Nati will officially launch Maxi Trots. An initiative aimed at keeping adolescents in the sport, educating them to drive in a racing situation and boosting driver numbers for the future."
These restricted meetings they are getting rid of are the meetings that hold the mini trots & maxi trots. they are the meetings supported by the families for a night or day out, you can't have it both ways Sam you either cater for these kids or they go elswehere.

[aussiebreno]

"Newcastle Saturday night Mr Sam Nati will officially launch Maxi Trots. An initiative aimed at keeping adolescents in the sport, educating them to drive in a racing situation and boosting driver numbers for the future."
These restricted meetings they are getting rid of are the meetings that hold the mini trots & maxi trots. they are the meetings supported by the families for a night or day out, you can't have it both ways Sam you either cater for these kids or they go elswehere.
Not aimed at you clumsy, but everybody wants to whinge and whine when things go wrong (and understandably so) but nobody wants to applaud things when they go right - eg when I started a thread about the Maxi trots a couple of months ago not one person replied.

[Gtrain]

[QUOTE=Danno;18557]Thanks Grant, in that case was the greater number of TAB fixed odds races implemented at the same time Menangle went to Saturdays?

Hey Danno,
Im not certain as to the exact timing of TAB's increase in Fixed Odds gambling but I have been told that on Harness racing meeting where fixed odds are offered by the TAB turnover through fixed odds sits regularly around 25% of the win pool. The percentage of this turnover that gets put back into the industry is less than one third of the amount through regular TAB pool gambling. This is clearly an issue needing addressing. IMO (warning, bold prediction coming) Fixed odds gambling will soon eclipse TAB pool wagering.

[mightymo]

How much exactly Harvey? When this was discussed on harnesslist, the consensus was that TAB fixed odds turnover is around 15% of tote win pool turnover. Do you think that number is incorrect now?

I think(and am very confident) that that number is VERY low...

[Danno]

[QUOTE=Danno;18557]Thanks Grant, in that case was the greater number of TAB fixed odds races implemented at the same time Menangle went to Saturdays?

Hey Danno,
Im not certain as to the exact timing of TAB's increase in Fixed Odds gambling but I have been told that on Harness racing meeting where fixed odds are offered by the TAB turnover through fixed odds sits regularly around 25% of the win pool. The percentage of this turnover that gets put back into the industry is less than one third of the amount through regular TAB pool gambling. This is clearly an issue needing addressing. IMO (warning, bold prediction coming) Fixed odds gambling will soon eclipse TAB pool wagering.

Thanks for the info Grant and Harvey, the TAB has lived up to it's rep...been carefully ripping the nightie off for decades and decades...doesn't stop them wingeing either, pretty soon they'll tell us they can't afford to cover trots at all and watch us try to paddle up shit creek then. They've had us by the short and curlies for too long and things are only deteriorating.

[William]

I think(and am very confident) that that number is VERY low...

OK thanks Harvey. I hope that you are right about that. The overall turnover figures including Betfair and corporates would be very interesting.

[strong persuader]

Back on track
State wide losing 54 meeting's
Metro incl Bulli and HRNSW@TPC 18,Bankstown-11 down from 20 & 21
Hunter and north west - 4 - 2 each from Newc and Tam
Western District's - 10 - Dubbo 3,Orange 2 and Parkes 5
South West & Riverina - 9- Junee 3, Temora 3,Wagga 3 and Young 2
But gaining 2 extra at Goulburn.
Goulburn is being classed as 1/2 Metro and 1/2 South west and Riverina gaining 2 in 2013 from 8 to 10

Hard to see the justification in Dubbo and Parkes being reduced, both good tracks in the heart of a good horse territory. Orange seemed to be overcatered to with an allocation of five meetings per year, and still get to hold 3 meetings a year when compared to the other tracks in the area that have to make do with 2!
I don't know of the conditions within the other areas so can't comment on them.

[strong persuader]

I sorry that most of you don't like what i’m saying. Harness racing is facing some tough times ahead and at the end of the day harness racing is a business and the racing is the product they sell. It is simple if harness racing doesn't grow its betting turnover, it will go bust. I can understand the emotion attached.
The comment by Daryl New that if you don’t like it don’t bet on it, is not good enough. Betting turnover can’t grow if the punters don’t like the product. So It is more of a case if you don’t like it its got to improve or be got rid of.
Daryl also wrote don’t bag the people that make up the fields and this only highlights the problem, if there are people or horses that are only going around week in week out to make up numbers is a problem. No one will back a horse they have never herd of with bad form that is trained a driven by some bloke that has a nine to five job and drives or trains a horse after work. Get half a dozen of these in a race and the punter doesn’t punt.
As a punter there are four things I follow, Horses, trainers, drivers and form if I look at a race and don’t know any names and nothing obvious in the form you don’t punt.
In recent time harness racing has had its share of integrity issues again causing a lack of trust in the product. Because the industry is so large and fragmented makes it hard to be correctly regulated.
I have wrote this before but the number of trainers must be reduced if harness racing had 10 trainers in Sydney with about 70-80 horses each regulation would be simple there would be better name recognition and plenty of quality horses to make up fields. The same can be said about drivers although more than ten are required.
As much as it is a hard decision to make it is for the better of the sport and doing away with the restricted meetings is a good one and a good step towards a stronger future.
The comment I made earlier about the Bulli race was wrong in the way it targeted one person but the point was all drivers have shockers but the part time ones have more than the ones that drive all the time.
PS sorry about the spelling I was never very good at it. But must also add I have never commented on anyone’s spelling ever. So I can’t spell but I’m not a hypocrite.

This old chestnut gets tossed around about every 8 years.

I recall it being brought up in the late 70's about what drivers should be allowed to drive at Harold Park as the punting public didn't know these drivers who came to town once in a while and sometimes didn't perform at the level they were used to. When I first started in the game, I can recall some old timers telling me that there was a time when putting AD Turnbull on your horse ensured that it was 4 points longer in the betting! Can't vouch for the accuracy of that statement, as at that time AD was at the top of his game and all us newcomers looked at him to see how it should be done.

Even now, would Luke McCarthy now be where he is if his grandfather or father hadn't done the hard yards, I think that they would both admit to butchering a few drives as they polished their skills. (The pun is deliberate :) )

I think that every now and then people forget that standardbreds aren't thoroughbreds and want to emulate the 'Sport of Kings' for what reason I cannot fathom. Trotting has always been the sport of the tradesmen and farmers and families that didn't have the financial clout or desire to hobnob with the Turf crowd. Trotting has always been regarded as the 2nd choice form of horse racing and probably always will be. I think Jack Honan once explained his love of trotting as that it was normal people participating, that in the turf world anyone who had a bit of success wanted to put on a derby hat and a tie and walk around with their nose in the air. I know that I have probably misquoted him, but I think that was the essence of his statement. This will always be the charm of trotting, even the big guns acknowledge the battler, because it will be the battler that will be trying to beat him next time out and on occassions the battler is going to have the better horse or get the better run. I can recall an occassion when Steve Turnbull once jokingly complained about the fact that I was always trying to beat him after I had run about four seconds to his charges with one of our horses. I then complained back that I was tired of him always having one too good for us to beat. And that is how it works, the big guns know the little guns, everyone respects each other, everyone tries their damnedest to win, and that should excite the punters, because if they see a part time trainer/driver engaged in a field and the horse seems half decent, they can punt with confidence that it will be trying its best. True there will be times when the part time driver will get out driven or make a bit of blue that costs them the win, but that is balanced by the fact that when they do get it right, the dividend is usually higher because of that acknowledged form difference.

So if you want to have racing where there are only professional trainers and professional drivers........switch to the thoroughbreds and don't complain when you have spent your fortune and don't have any friends. If you want to enjoy your time with horses and make friends that will be there forever, stay in harness racing and enjoy the success any battler gets, because one day it will be you in the spotlight and they will be quick to enjoy yours. Plus you may still have half your fortune to leave to the kids!

[aussiebreno]

This old chestnut gets tossed around about every 8 years.

I recall it being brought up in the late 70's about what drivers should be allowed to drive at Harold Park as the punting public didn't know these drivers who came to town once in a while and sometimes didn't perform at the level they were used to. When I first started in the game, I can recall some old timers telling me that there was a time when putting AD Turnbull on your horse ensured that it was 4 points longer in the betting! Can't vouch for the accuracy of that statement, as at that time AD was at the top of his game and all us newcomers looked at him to see how it should be done.

Even now, would Luke McCarthy now be where he is if his grandfather or father hadn't done the hard yards, I think that they would both admit to butchering a few drives as they polished their skills. (The pun is deliberate :) )

I think that every now and then people forget that standardbreds aren't thoroughbreds and want to emulate the 'Sport of Kings' for what reason I cannot fathom. Trotting has always been the sport of the tradesmen and farmers and families that didn't have the financial clout or desire to hobnob with the Turf crowd. Trotting has always been regarded as the 2nd choice form of horse racing and probably always will be. I think Jack Honan once explained his love of trotting as that it was normal people participating, that in the turf world anyone who had a bit of success wanted to put on a derby hat and a tie and walk around with their nose in the air. I know that I have probably misquoted him, but I think that was the essence of his statement. This will always be the charm of trotting, even the big guns acknowledge the battler, because it will be the battler that will be trying to beat him next time out and on occassions the battler is going to have the better horse or get the better run. I can recall an occassion when Steve Turnbull once jokingly complained about the fact that I was always trying to beat him after I had run about four seconds to his charges with one of our horses. I then complained back that I was tired of him always having one too good for us to beat. And that is how it works, the big guns know the little guns, everyone respects each other, everyone tries their damnedest to win, and that should excite the punters, because if they see a part time trainer/driver engaged in a field and the horse seems half decent, they can punt with confidence that it will be trying its best. True there will be times when the part time driver will get out driven or make a bit of blue that costs them the win, but that is balanced by the fact that when they do get it right, the dividend is usually higher because of that acknowledged form difference.

So if you want to have racing where there are only professional trainers and professional drivers........switch to the thoroughbreds and don't complain when you have spent your fortune and don't have any friends. If you want to enjoy your time with horses and make friends that will be there forever, stay in harness racing and enjoy the success any battler gets, because one day it will be you in the spotlight and they will be quick to enjoy yours. Plus you may still have half your fortune to leave to the kids!
Nicely put Sir.

[Toohard]

Spot on Phil !

[Danno]

I reckon that's the post of the year so far Phil, you couldn't have put the facts any better than that.
Cheers,

Dan

[broncobrad]

Phil, can we post that everytime Tiny and Harold Parker makes that call for professional drivers/trainers.

Some people don't understand why we get so dirty if someone is cheating. Its because most participants are decent, hardworking and honest. Most are from a working background or reside in rural areas. A night at the trots is a coming together of the community in the bush. The big nights are great. Well attended. Very social.

Compare that to what already exists at Menangle. Give me the bush anyday. Great post and great pun. You should be the publicity officer at Blayney if you aren't already.

[clumsy]

Well done Phil, people like you are what this sport is all about. May Blayney trots continue to prosper.

[broncobrad]

I'm a bit behind the times, only just discovered Parkes was on tonight, and I see the Dumesny family are being honoured for their involvement in harness racing, especially at Parkes over the years - a lot of the recognition centred on their voluntary efforts for the Parkes club. Congratulations to all concerned.. the heart and soul of all the smaller clubs owes their existence to the tireless work of volunteers, usually unsung and seeking no recognition at all. The club has a proud existence because of the selfless work of people of their ilk. Shame HRNSW has seen fit to knock 2 meetings off them.

Tonights tribute comes hot on the heels of the Bathurst club who recently recognised the contribution of the Hando family a few weeks ago for their involvement in the breeding industry/related involvement over the decades.

I might have rose coloured glasses on, but I really hope the sport gets through the shit that decent people have had to put up with relating to the ongoing scandal and starts taking steps forward in coming months. These type of people are the backbone of harness racing and while they are in the game, the future of NSW harness will eventually be assured.

[aussiebreno]

I'm a bit behind the times, only just discovered Parkes was on tonight, and I see the Dumesny family are being honoured for their involvement in harness racing, especially at Parkes over the years - a lot of the recognition centred on their voluntary efforts for the Parkes club. Congratulations to all concerned.. the heart and soul of all the smaller clubs owes their existence to the tireless work of volunteers, usually unsung and seeking no recognition at all. The club has a proud existence because of the selfless work of people of their ilk. Shame HRNSW has seen fit to knock 2 meetings off them.

Tonights tribute comes hot on the heels of the Bathurst club who recently recognised the contribution of the Hando family a few weeks ago for their involvement in the breeding industry/related involvement over the decades.

I might have rose coloured glasses on, but I really hope the sport gets through the shit that decent people have had to put up with relating to the ongoing scandal and starts taking steps forward in coming months. These type of people are the backbone of harness racing and while they are in the game, the future of NSW harness will eventually be assured.

Yep Bathurst have a Gold Crown honouree each year, most clubs have a volunteer of the year and NSW has its own volunteer of the year award.

[Greg Hando]

Found out tonight Peak Hill with no meeting's this year not sure whether it is a funding issue or not .Parkes and Dubbo have the date's when Peak used to race .

[strong persuader]

Found out tonight Peak Hill with no meeting's this year not sure whether it is a funding issue or not .Parkes and Dubbo have the date's when Peak used to race .

That is bad news. Hopefully it is only temporary and that the club is back up and running soon.

[mango]

That's a shame about Peak Hill, i went there 2 yrs ago to a meeting not expecting much but to my amazement the racing was great and there was a huge crowd who turned up for the day. The thing i find strange is that they cut clubs back on race day's only to give a couple of club's some extra who already have sufficient.

[Greg Hando]

That's 14 month's away i'm talking about y12 no meeting's pencilled in on the proposal from HRNSW in one place it say's 2 meetings y12 and 2 y13 then over on the calender it say's Parkes and Dubbo on 2 of the Saturday's in July 12 just a bit confusing to understand. Maybe a typo perhap's .

[Greg Hando]

16-7-2011 and 24-7-2011 were the last meeting's. When were the meeting's in y12 or are these included in this year's racing season even though they are before the season 11/12 start's ? Just trying to understand thing's a bit better.

[Greg Hando]

Thanks i thought it was our racing season sep to aug .

[broncobrad]

Glad you boys finally got that sorted out...that was taking forever.

[doncht]

This was a nice day. It just make me glad to see two people sorting things out on their own. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/smile4.png

[Messenger]

Don I want you to take a good look at the following pic

[hillbillydeluxe]

I agree with most of what Phil has explained of the sport as I spent most of the 80's & 90's involved in the sport and it was only due to the integrity issues of the sport that I left. I have tried to re enter the sport as an owner several times to only be disillusioned and let down by trainers (positives). The bad side to it all is I spend $6k a month on 4 horses in the gallops to a country trainer. My main issue is every time I want to get back into the sport you have Harness trainers quoting around the $50 per day mark but want you to race for minor prizemoney yet in the gallops I pay $50 a day to race for 4 times the prizemoney, so its not comparable. if I want my horse trained by a no name harness trainer with 2-3 in work then it costs around $25 per day. So it's not only an integrity issue with the sport it's the sustainability.

[p plater]

Look at the program for Goulburn next Monday http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=LM300315
Question: Are the trainers and or owners getting the shits with the C2 or better (we will decide the fields) ruling. Not one race for C2 or better.
You can only change the Mickey Mouse grading so many times to suit the numbers before the ones paying for it say enough.