Where is the winning post???

[The Form Student]

I am sick of watching, races trying to work out the winner in a close finish and the winning post can't be found? There are lot of tracks where it is impossible to line up the horses with the wining post, IF there is one! What is going on?

[Triple V]

Yeh, that annoys the Hell out of me too.
I always have trouble with that when I watch Harness Racing at The Gold Coast. They seem to pace well on by the camera before they actually reach the line.
Maybe one of those projected things ala the 1st down line they put up on screen in the NFL would be of some use?

[broncobrad]

I remember when we use to have 'em and we had just as good an idea as the caller who had got up. I think clubs reckoned they looked a bit old fashioned and didn't fit into the new slick racing experience they put on for the trendy crowds they try to attract. You know the type, skirts up to there and tripping over their high heels, giggling and full of bubbly trying to impress the young bucks...you know those ones too, full of courage as they yahoo and yehah all through the race and then when they cross the line they say, "Who won?" Sorry mate, couldn't see or hear over you. But God, thats a great looking finish post eh!

Now they build ridiculous monuments like at Canberra and Flemington gallops, Menangle (I dont know how Kevin gets it right, but he usually does). I always fall for the inside horse at Eagle Farm even though history says the outside horse always gets it.

But I agree with you Steve, just give us a winning post we can see, not set back 3 metres.

[The Form Student]

You would also think in this age of technology etc, that the race camera would be located exactly in front of the finish line?

[ARTOFFICIAL]

Check out the winning posts at Shepparton and Melton in a tight finish.......

[geoffkel]

Shepp is the worst. It is actually placed going into the 1st bend and not in the straight.

[G-Mac]

Melton is a stinker. I don't get how they could have got it so wrong seeing as they built the track from scratch. Is it just me or does the finish line run diagonally across the track?

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

I am sick of watching, races trying to work out the winner in a close finish and the winning post can't be found? There are lot of tracks where it is impossible to line up the horses with the wining post, IF there is one! What is going on?

Its probably because of this.
http://www.harness.org.au/images/video-wmv.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/GEC17120806.wmv)

[broncobrad]

Jesus Lucky, first time I've seen that. Have just realised after watching it ten times, still don't know what won the race!!

Was the finish painted in invisible ink?

[broncobrad]

The winning posts at Boort today and Launceston this evening. Nice and simple. The camera may not be lined up directly on either of them, but geez its a bit easier to work out the result without having to contend with one of those monumental monstrosities. The K-I-S-S approach still works for me.

[The Form Student]

Some of these clubs deserve the "Liverpool Kiss"..........surely the basics of a spectator sport such as racing are that you want to see who finishes in front of who! If it keeps going you will need a computer program to calculate the result using a 'scientific algorithm"...........get the camera mounted for Sky coverages directly infront of the winning post.....so you can see the winner, unless it is a decidely close finish and a camera is needed..........e.g. at Newcastle the horses are virtually coming at you head on....it is difficult to see if a runner is making up ground, and then they quickly go across the line! I agree about Melton it looks like the winning post angle is not perpendicular to the winning post.........it looks like the swoopers get an advantage! Why don't we get a "stump camera" like at the cricket........with so many races being crammed into a sky coverage, you are left waiting for a photo result while 3 other races are run!

[Triple V]

A lot of the camera angles on Sky are absolute crap...no question at all.

[The Form Student]

MENANGLE - when runners are approaching the finishing line it loooks like they are racing in front of a graffitti sprayed concrete wall, like on the freeway as you drive along, the winning post is in there somewhere! The winning post is definitely not as highly visible as it should be! The race camera is past the winning post, so you need to tack on a bit for the outside horse in a close finish.......Fred is "doinmabest" to call the winner first go in the call!

[Triple V]

The Gold Coast is the one that always gets me. They're well inside the final 16th and you think that you're home and clear...but there's still another 20-30m to go. Shepparton is a bugger like that too. They just start to enter the turn & the post appears. Someone else has mentioned that already I think? As an Industry we could do a lot as far as having projected on screen visual aids for the PubTab/Club/TAB/Stay at home Punter is concerned. The NFL is the USA is excellent in that regard. I'm sure the TB's tried it somewhere here in Oz relatively recently? I'd have thought that Harness Racing would lend itself more readily to that sort of technology....especially so night-time wise.

[The Form Student]

You are right!...........at Menangle with such a long straight, if you are on the leader it takes an eternity for them to reach the finishing line!.........Put an overlay on the screen to show the track at the 200m, 100m & wnning post.......let's see what that looks like!

[The Form Student]

2 other things need mentioning.........1. In the past week or so the NSWTAB are cutting off betting well before a race actually starts, often they are running without my investment.......with the pools being so small, I leave it until late to bet, I don't want to take $1:30 something that should be $2:50, and they don't bet fixed odds on all meetings.....yesterday at Warragul in the standing starts, they cut off betting well before the horses were even in position!..........someone has a "trigger happy" finger in their at the moment.......if they don't fix this "Betezy" here I come!............2. also the studio people need to keep punters updated as to when a race is going to start, especially when another race is in progress.....they have the benefit of being able to see what is going on at each track.....too many times a race starts whilst the previous is in progress........we need the the small "picture in picture" screeen running all the time..........Or perhaps they should use Sky 2 whenever available to show what is happening re the next race to be broadcast. Some "fine tuning" is needed!

[Triple V]

Strangely enough, I have more trouble going back the other way now, as in working out if they've got a chance to get there on the smaller tracks. I've actually got Menangle worked out pretty well. Unless something really dies in the arse and goes from a blaze to a walk in a couple of strides I can tell reasonably well if it is going to figure in the finish or not. I think it came from watching a few drivers having success there by tipping to the outside around 600-500-400 out and sweeping around them from back in the field. An on screen line at the final 16th would be pretty handy.

[The Form Student]

Further, it is in the interest of NSWTAB to leave it until as late as possible to cut-off betting on a race, how many times have you been in the TAB and everyone wants to get on at the last minute, and you are left holding your betting slip in your hand, and they have jumped??...........I have tried using the machines on the wall, but when you are having miltiple bets it can take forever.....I just think some streamling is needed!

[The Form Student]

If they actually paint the lines on the track......some of the drivers will actually know when to take off!..........lol!

[Triple V]

Similarly, Jimmy Brown once said that some horses get intimidated by the long Menangle stretch and need to have pictures of the winning post painted on the inside of their pull down blinds.

[The Form Student]

They could also use a different coloured marker peg to show the distances!

[Triple V]

You could take that a step further and if they reach the 3/4's in a really fast time a real occasion could be made of it by giving Fred a remote control button for one of Vince Silvestro's fireworks mortars placed strategically upon the infield.
I can almost hear Fred calling it now. "They sweep past the three-quarters in a dazzling one twenty and two and you know what that means folks...a substantial discharge is imminent". :p

[The Form Student]

You could take that a step further and if they reach the 3/4's in a really fast time a real occasion could be made of it by giving Fred a remote control button for one of Vince Silvestro's fireworks mortars placed strategically upon the infield.
I can almost hear Fred calling it now. "They sweep past the three-quarters in a dazzling one twenty and two and you know what that means folks...a substantial discharge is imminent". :p

You could also have a barber shop pole for the winning post, and when a record is broken the light goes up and down the winning post and the light stays on top! Don't forget fireworks at race meetings might be no-no!
What about on the screen they have an overlay of a comic drawn horse and driver (similar to that of Trackside at the TAB's) that goes at the speed of the track record sectionals for each distance for FFA's and classic races etc, so we can check out how good a horse is compared to past champions etc! Just like the line they have at the swimming. There are so many marketing opportunities being missed out on!

[Thevoiceofreason]

You could also have a barber shop pole for the winning post, and when a record is broken the light goes up and down the winning post and the light stays on top! Don't forget fireworks at race meetings might be no-no!
What about on the screen they have an overlay of a comic drawn horse and driver (similar to that of Trackside at the TAB's) that goes at the speed of the track record sectionals for each distance for FFA's and classic races etc, so we can check out how good a horse is compared to past champions etc! Just like the line they have at the swimming. There are so many marketing opportunities being missed out on!

Gee I am getting old in the early miracle miles they had lights set at the 2 minute standard each quarter so you could see if they were inside the two minute mark...... yes just checked the licence I am getting old....back to the future stuff here.

On a serious note the gallops had a similar problem a few years back with so many tracks punters not knowing where the winning post is and fixed it by painting the inside rail a different color, this could be could be easily fixed at virtually no cost by painting the pegs from say the 100m mark a different color.

[broncobrad]

At the Grafton gallops they painted an orange line across the track adjacent to the winning post and that certainly helped in picking the winner. The grandstand is offset from the post and it really is a deceptive angle, but the paint assists no end...apparently orange doesn't spook the horses in anyway, but don't quote me on that.

TFS, I hope Sky execs do peruse these pages because everything you have brought up is valid criticism of their product. Too much idle chit chat between close events does nothing to inform the audience and usually results in events jumping without warning. Freedman bangs on about the gallopers, and treats harness and dog events with contempt. While he's banging on about TB races ten minutes away, we are missing out on vital information on IMINENT harness events.

A lot of good points Steve, all free of charge for Sky execs to ponder, that would assist them to produce a better product for us who are TOO far away from events we cannot attend.

[Thevoiceofreason]

The orange line works with the dark green background (turf) I am pretty sure it will not work in Harness just something else for them to jump and gallop.

[Triple V]

What about...as the horses reach the final 16th...we get a crowd-rousing blast from some old shagger hidden up the back somewhere & playing his heart on a Wurlitzer Organ...ala the NHL Ice Hockey games? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb19d08Lnec

[The Form Student]

What about...as the horses reach the final 16th...we get a crowd-rousing blast from some old shagger hidden up the back somewhere & playing his heart on a Wurlitzer Organ...ala the NHL Ice Hockey games? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb19d08Lnec

I would prefer if there was a swooper coming home at the rate of knots, that Fred switches the on-course microphone to Meatloaf singing......Like a bat of out of hell!

[broncobrad]

Freds already got form there Steve...yesterday when Backmanturner was going across the line to win, Fred quipped "and Backmanturner goes into OVERDRIVE". They are the calls we love to hear!

[teecee]

The orange line works with the dark green background (turf) I am pretty sure it will not work in Harness just something else for them to jump and gallop.
The horses dont have to jump it if they use a "virtual finish line" as part of the graphics imaging. You only see it on the tv. It's not painted on the ground. It is similar to the black line that goes in front of swimmers if you have ever seen that indicating world records / games records etc or whatever.

[The Form Student]

Freds already got form there Steve...yesterday when Backmanturner was going across the line to win, Fred quipped "and Backmanturner goes into OVERDRIVE". They are the calls we love to hear!

No! Mick Coconuts, already used that in his form analysis on Aust Harness Racing website, and the tele! But it suits! Personally, as an up and coming novice race caller, I would have said Bacmanturner is "Taking Care of Business" this afternoon!........(Fred, keep that one for next time!) Perhaps, Fred needs to do a little more research before he does his calls! I like Allan Hull down in the Riverina........he is a classic with some of the things he comes up with!

[Thevoiceofreason]

The horses dont have to jump it if they use a "virtual finish line" as part of the graphics imaging. You only see it on the tv. It's not painted on the ground. It is similar to the black line that goes in front of swimmers if you have ever seen that indicating world records / games records etc or whatever.

With the greatest of respect Teecee the line Brad is referring to was painted onto the turf surfaces it was very popular in all Aussie states with the gallops for about 5or 6 years in the early 2000 but more and more tracks phased it out. I can not recall the last time I actually noticed one, I am pretty sure Grafton does not even use it now.

I understand you graphics argument but in Australia we have so many different vision providers to sky I doubt that too many would have the financial depth to supply this type of production at course level.

I do not know enough about TV production to say if it can be added at sky racing or not.

[teecee]

I am just suggesting an alternative to paint on the track interfering with the horses' concentration but I take your point about many on course service suppliers to SKY Racing.
It is however possible to do it in studio. We used to do it around the Canterbury tracks like Addington, Riccarton, Ashburton..etc.... but we were the sole pics supplier.

[aussiebreno]

No! Mick Coconuts, already used that in his form analysis on Aust Harness Racing website, and the tele! But it suits! Personally, as an up and coming novice race caller, I would have said Bacmanturner is "Taking Care of Business" this afternoon!........(Fred, keep that one for next time!) Perhaps, Fred needs to do a little more research before he does his calls! I like Allan Hull down in the Riverina........he is a classic with some of the things he comes up with!
Maybe Allan should concentrate on more on just giving an accurate potrayal of the race.

[broncobrad]

Certainly don't wish to be disrespectful to Allan Hull, because, lets face it, it is a tough gig calling a race accurately, but sometimes I am scratching my head and thinking the race I am watching bears no resemblance to the race being commentated.

[The Form Student]

Certainly don't wish to be disrespectful to Allan Hull, because, lets face it, it is a tough gig calling a race accurately, but sometimes I am scratching my head and thinking the race I am watching bears no resemblance to the race being commentated.

Allan has just passed on this reply........Calling a race is like watching a great movie.....you just go with the flow!.......but beware........I have plenty left in the locker!

[The Form Student]

Maybe Allan should concentrate on more on just giving an accurate potrayal of the race.

I think his favourite horse is at the gallops........BAH RAM EWE!

[The Form Student]

Maybe Allan should concentrate on more on just giving an accurate potrayal of the race.

Don't forget Allan has just come through the trauma of a recent "bomb scare" whilst calling a race, this would certainly affect one's ability to accurately call races.......the emergency authorities actually commended Allan highly for his assistance in evacuating patrons from the Leeton Trotting Track!

[aussiebreno]

Don't forget Allan has just come through the trauma of a recent "bomb scare" whilst calling a race, this would certainly affect one's ability to accurately call races.......the emergency authorities actually commended Allan highly for his assistance in evacuating patrons from the Leeton Trotting Track!
It was Albury, I was there and yes Alan did a GREAT job that night handling it.

[The Form Student]

It was Albury, I was there and yes Alan did a GREAT job that night handling it.

Sorry, I thought it was Leeton, I know it was a Saturday night!..........a lot of Allan's cultural humour and sarcasm is often over the heads of the usual "Country Cocky's" that attend these meetings............no inference is intended!

[aussiebreno]

Sorry, I thought it was Leeton, I know it was a Saturday night!..........a lot of Allan's cultural humour and sarcasm is often over the heads of the usual "Country Cocky's" that attend these meetings............no inference is intended!
I don't think its that it goes over peoples/mine head, just that it's not appreciated in his race calls. Accuracy first, then add flamboyancy. Have attended a couple events where he has been MC and appreciate his humour and comments there - as did many others.

[The Form Student]

I don't think its that it goes over peoples/mine head, just that it's not appreciated in his race calls. Accuracy first, then add flamboyancy. Have attended a couple events where he has been MC and appreciate his humour and comments there - as did many others.

You are right, it needs to be accurate first before you bring in the rest.......I do take your point, I often raise my eyebrows whilst listening to his calls.....but overall he gets the job done........I would like to see him in action at these events. He is obviously well known and has a lot of contacts in the racing industry.

[Triple V]

The, to me at least, funniest thing I ever heard a race caller go with when trying to tie the call in with the name of one of the horses competing was at Globe Derby in SA, I think it was during an ID Carnival?, and can be attributed to visiting US caller Roger Huston. "The Messiah.....nailed to the rail".

[broncobrad]

Is that a big splash of white paint across the line at Doomben today? On the vision it appears so and it makes picking the winner pretty easy, did not see any horses get spooked by it.

Just watched the last and it looks like it might be superimposed, but even so it sure does help.

[remington]

I know im late into this debate and looks like it has kind of moved on but I think Allan is an amazing caller. Makes the races so interesting and many people comment on how he makes the races enjoyable.
So as the green light twinkles and they travel back from wence the began, only to see the spinnakers setand filling with wind as they HITTT THEEE LINEEEEEEE........... GOT THEREEEE

[The Form Student]

Last night at Albury........in one of the races Alan, says "there are more breakers than at Manly Beach!"

[The Form Student]

Is that a big splash of white paint across the line at Doomben today? On the vision it appears so and it makes picking the winner pretty easy, did not see any horses get spooked by it.

Just watched the last and it looks like it might be superimposed, but even so it sure does help.

Menangle needs something, they run down that long straight, the winning post is lost in amongst the advertising display boards, the camera is past the post and you have to work out how your horse finished in a close finish...........why don't they just give it a "try" and see what people think!!!

[Thevoiceofreason]

Menangle needs something, they run down that long straight, the winning post is lost in amongst the advertising display boards, the camera is past the post and you have to work out how your horse finished in a close finish...........why don't they just give it a "try" and see what people think!!!

COST like everything else, that is why.

[broncobrad]

I know im late into this debate and looks like it has kind of moved on but I think Allan is an amazing caller. Makes the races so interesting and many people comment on how he makes the races enjoyable.
So as the green light twinkles and they travel back from wence the began, only to see the spinnakers setand filling with wind as they HITTT THEEE LINEEEEEEE........... GOT THEREEEE

If you ever get the chance to listen to a bloke called Shane Green? who calls at Alice Springs, do yourself a favour. There is nothing wrong with his accuracy, because they are usually small fields and he calls a spade a spade. There is nothing politically correct about his calls and I often wonder if he ever runs foul of the race clubs with his comments..."the favourites five lengths last, someone break out the smelling salts"...I would love to hear him call a Melbourne Cup, it would be hilarious.

[Triple V]

A long since retired race caller from Tassie gave a well beaten into last place fav., one that it seemed everyone on course including himself must have backed, an absolutely HUGE spray as it crossed the line at Mowbray. "...and someone get (Harry's Boy) a saucer of milk...'cause it's a Cat!".

[Toohard]

A long since retired race caller from Tassie gave a well beaten into last place fav., one that it seemed everyone on course including himself must have backed, an absolutely HUGE spray as it crossed the line at Mowbray. "...and someone get (Harry's Boy) a saucer of milk...'cause it's a Cat!".

:D:D:D
Where does that saying "It's a Cat" when referring to a horse come from?

I remember asking years and years ago (too many years ago!) and no one could tell me. Everyone just used it but no one knew why.

We've got a cat here that got caught in one of them jaw like rabbit traps that some lovely local had set. Was gone for 3 days in searing heat before it somehow escaped and made it back home here. Ended up loosing a front leg and half a foot from the other front. But still gets around pretty quick. Beats the 4 legged cat to the mice!

So can't be a dig at the horses (the cats) bravery?

[Danno]

Not gunna swear to it Paul but I always thought it was an abbreviation of "pussy cat"....soft and fluffy type, if you get my meaning.
Cheers,
Dan

[2minuteman]

Not gunna swear to it Paul but I always thought it was an abbreviation of "pussy cat"....soft and fluffy type, if you get my meaning.
Cheers,
Dan
That's it.Goes back at least 60 years to my knowledge.

[The Form Student]

It just means it is weak! Drinks milk just like a "Cat"

[broncobrad]

Noticed the white line superimposed in the photo finish of some races at Melton last night. That angle does look ridiculous to the the naked eye and as someone stated earlier, the camera needs to be relocated.

Is it possible that there are people out there who are listening to our little whinges/gripes and actually doing something for us. I can't recall seeing that white line before.

[The Form Student]

Noticed the white line superimposed in the photo finish of some races at Melton last night. That angle does look ridiculous to the the naked eye and as someone stated earlier, the camera needs to be relocated.

Is it possible that there are people out there who are listening to our little whinges/gripes and actually doing something for us. I can't recall seeing that white line before.

I saw the line also, but as you say it does not look perpendicular to the winning post. Can someone verify that the line is correct! I watched a close finish and the caller had no hesitation in calling the outside horse the winner! The line favours the outside runners? Please help!

[Toohard]

I saw the line also, but as you say it does not look perpendicular to the winning post. Can someone verify that the line is correct! I watched a close finish and the caller had no hesitation in calling the outside horse the winner! The line favours the outside runners? Please help!

Gday. Those pics from a camera that was in roped off area in stand. We stood behind it and looked up and its right under the photo finish gear. Theres a white post on outside running rail thats on finish line too. If anything looks like the winning post structure thing not 'flush' with the track.

[The Form Student]

Gday. Those pics from a camera that was in roped off area in stand. We stood behind it and looked up and its right under the photo finish gear. Theres a white post on outside running rail thats on finish line too. If anything looks like the winning post structure thing not 'flush' with the track.

Hopefully, we can get someone to verify that the winning post itself is not parallel to the track, therefore the illusion of the line running backwards form the inside of the track out, therefore favouring the outside horses! As I said originally on this thread, there is a big need for a lot of clubs to get this problem sorted out! It is a basic neceesity that the finish line/post is easily seen and that the race broadcast camera is over the line to the post!..........Don't you agree?

[Toohard]

Hopefully, we can get someone to verify that the winning post itself is not parallel to the track, therefore the illusion of the line running backwards form the inside of the track out, therefore favouring the outside horses! As I said originally on this thread, there is a big need for a lot of clubs to get this problem sorted out! It is a basic neceesity that the finish line/post is easily seen and that the race broadcast camera is over the line to the post!..........Don't you agree?

Gday Steve

I think the line is parallel to the track and correct but I reckon you're right. Because of the camera angle and also the winning post structure it creates the illusion that it isn't. Have attached very 'grainy' pic with some of my 'artwork' on it. On the inside of the track there is a white line on the ground from the bottom of the post to the edge of the track (tried to draw red 'circle' around it). Also on the outside of the track there's a white post (also with a red 'circle' round it). The finish line follows the white line on the inside of the track across to the white post (again tried to draw white line to indicate).

But look at the winning post structure. Doesn't look to be flush with the track to me.

Maybe it is but doesn't look like it. The bend comes up pretty quick after the winning post or maybe the track is wider past the post. To me that creates the illusion that the line runs even further back that what it actually does when watching on telly. Looking at earlier pics of Melton neither the white line on inside of track or the white post on the outside are there. Maybe added as a result of input like yours. Also to my knowledge that new stationary camera was there for the first time Friday night. Didn't look to be permanent yet as just in roped off area so maybe they trying new stuff to make it easier if watching on telly. For sure a great initiative.

Seems to be problem at a lot of tracks (the camera being past or before the post). The judge, commentator and photo finish gear all on the line but no room for the camera and the bloke doing the video.

Agree camera should be right on the line. Maybe they need to build something on top to house the camera man doing the telly coverage. Or hoist him from a trapeze!

Cheers

[The Form Student]

Gday Steve

I think the line is parallel to the track and correct but I reckon you're right. Because of the camera angle and also the winning post structure it creates the illusion that it isn't. Have attached very 'grainy' pic with some of my 'artwork' on it. On the inside of the track there is a white line on the ground from the bottom of the post to the edge of the track (tried to draw red 'circle' around it). Also on the outside of the track there's a white post (also with a red 'circle' round it). The finish line follows the white line on the inside of the track across to the white post (again tried to draw white line to indicate).

But look at the winning post structure. Doesn't look to be flush with the track to me.

Maybe it is but doesn't look like it. The bend comes up pretty quick after the winning post or maybe the track is wider past the post. To me that creates the illusion that the line runs even further back that what it actually does when watching on telly. Looking at earlier pics of Melton neither the white line on inside of track or the white post on the outside are there. Maybe added as a result of input like yours. Also to my knowledge that new stationary camera was there for the first time Friday night. Didn't look to be permanent yet as just in roped off area so maybe they trying new stuff to make it easier if watching on telly. For sure a great initiative.

Seems to be problem at a lot of tracks (the camera being past or before the post). The judge, commentator and photo finish gear all on the line but no room for the camera and the bloke doing the video.

Agree camera should be right on the line. Maybe they need to build something on top to house the camera man doing the telly coverage. Or hoist him from a trapeze!

Cheers

Toohard, everything you mentioned is correct, it appears that the winning post structure is not parrallel to the track at all, therefore' it gives the illusion that the line is running backwards from the winning post structure to the outside post..........or maybe it is if it is 90 degrees with the winning post structure?? You would think that it should be in the right place, but I am not convinced that it is! Your picture was very helpful, and helped straighten things up a bit, but I still think there is doubt that it is perfectly correct? What if it is was found that the line did actually run backwards, there would be owners taking legal action, if there horse was on the inside and beaten a nose by one on the outside, especially if it was a big prizemoney race? The doubt is there....I will continue to investigate, but do thank-you as your photo helps answer a lot of the questions! Like you said the track or running line does a bit of a cut back to left after the winning post as it is right on the start of the bend?

Maybe a camera low to the ground, like stump cam at the cricket.......to show the finish in a close photo?

[clumsy]

When you look at a photo finish you do not see the winning post just a line on a photo that the camera has determined to be the finish line. The camera operator must have some checks in place to determine that he has the camera set in the correct position. I wonder if there is any chance of human error in the setting up of the camera?

[teecee]

When you look at a photo finish you do not see the winning post just a line on a photo that the camera has determined to be the finish line. The camera operator must have some checks in place to determine that he has the camera set in the correct position. I wonder if there is any chance of human error in the setting up of the camera?
Only chance of that is if they put the camera on it's mounting to face the opposite direction.
Photo Finish cameras are mounted on a permanent framework usually part of the tower superstructure. That way they sit in exactly the same position each time they are positioned for each and every meeting. A fishline is then extended from the tower directly under the camera to the winning post at the finish line. A test run picture is then taken to ensure correct alignment with the fishing line photographed running across the lens centre top to bottom to the finish line on the winning post.

[The Form Student]

As you can see from the picture, the winning post structure on the in field is not parrallel to the track, so therefore the finish line looks like it goes backwards across the track to the outside fence....I hope that is not the case, otherwise it does not go directly across the track and therefore it is not a fair finish!.........perhaps someone with more knowledge of how it has been set-up, might explain things better? The camera you would think would slot into the same position week after week.....I hope!

[spider]

After visiting Menangle for the inters and watching any close finish there since it is the worst I have seen. Their is probably some similar or worse but I haven't seen them

[spider]

http://www.harness.org.au/images/video-wmv.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/video/wa/WAC20030906.wmv)
Have a listen to Matt Mcdermott as this horse crosses the line, I think it's pretty good

[Toohard]

Toohard, everything you mentioned is correct, it appears that the winning post structure is not parrallel to the track at all, therefore' it gives the illusion that the line is running backwards from the winning post structure to the outside post..........or maybe it is if it is 90 degrees with the winning post structure?? You would think that it should be in the right place, but I am not convinced that it is! Your picture was very helpful, and helped straighten things up a bit, but I still think there is doubt that it is perfectly correct? What if it is was found that the line did actually run backwards, there would be owners taking legal action, if there horse was on the inside and beaten a nose by one on the outside, especially if it was a big prizemoney race? The doubt is there....I will continue to investigate, but do thank-you as your photo helps answer a lot of the questions! Like you said the track or running line does a bit of a cut back to left after the winning post as it is right on the start of the bend?

Maybe a camera low to the ground, like stump cam at the cricket.......to show the finish in a close photo?
Gday Steve

"Never engage a young mans enquiring mind unless you can supply ALL the answers" as I have done with son with earlier comments on this subject. On Friday night we did some 'research' and took some pics that might be of use. Please excuse the grainy quality of them.

In the 1st pic (hlink1) we are standing at the red pole at the top of the straight that's used to determine the racing line i.e. taking the sprint lane out. The lighter bit of the track indicated by red arrow is where the finish line is. The racing line is roughly where the black line is. The marker pegs to the right of it are those of the sprint lane. Note the 2 marker pegs circled in black. Also note the black arrow. Looks to me about where the turn commences (if you are in the sprint lane).

In the 2nd pic (hlink2) we moved over to the right of the red pole. The black line again roughly the racing line. On the right you can see the winning post structure. We weren't exactly in between the 2 but if you take out the bend the structure is in fact parallel to the straight. Have drawn white line to try show that.

The 3rd pic (hlink3) taken from the stand underneath about where the TV camera is. Note the 2 pegs circled in white. They the same 2 pegs circled in black in pic 1. So the 'bend' on that line (the sprint lane) starts somewhere to the left (indicated by black arrow). Given that the winning post structure is parallel to the track the racing line is roughly where the red line is on pic (unless you are in the sprint lane). The white line (again roughly) the finish line.

Hope that helps. Satisfied my sons curiousity regarding that but whilst doing it he noted something else. If you stand on the rail in the grandstand on the winning post you are a lot closer to the track that what you are if you stand on the rail in the grandstand where it starts (about half way up the straight). We stepped it out on the grass in front of the stand in both spots. He was right. The stand is not parallel to the track!!

Cheers

[The Form Student]

I have been away, and just got to look at your pictures, they are very interesting, and I think somehwere in amongst this information lies the answer. I will have a closer look at them later, and make a comment. Thanks, for your effort, the information in the photos does explain things a bit more clearly. It maybe that because the stand is not parallel to the track, the optical illusion appears. Maybe, the winning post structure and the stand are parallel and the track is not parallel to both of them that causes the illusion? at least the club has now got the white line running across the track which does help sort out a close photo!

[The Form Student]

I am still sick of watching races and can't find the "bloody" winning post!!!! Menangle is a joke.......they can't even put up a line after the race to show the run on.........but they are quick at notifying the result, but we don't get to see it!.............Yes, we all know you need to tack on a bit for the outside runners in a close finish!.......... with runners fanning wide in the straight, a white line across the track at the 200 & 100 metres would assist people to line up the runners making their runs!................QLD gallops are great, they show a full run on of every runner after the race, with the white line shown! Well, I hope they do something right with the new Bathurst track, and do the right thing by all participants and punters!

[The Form Student]

http://www.harness.org.au/images/video-wmv.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/GEC17120806.wmv) Check out the horse in the yellow with the maltese cross..............he can't find the winning post either!

[Messenger]

Sheez that could have been fatal - when was that Steve?

[The Form Student]

Geelong - 17/12/2008 last race.........driver was M Steenhuis? I think! I know it was old, but it was put on this thread awhile ago, and it always intrigues me! you could look it up on results, it may have a clearer video!

[The Form Student]

The horse.....Total Asset went to SA a few years after that, and won 10 of it's 1st 13 starts!

[Messenger]

Thanks Steve, it is an incredible video

[Messenger]

I started a new thread about naming and shaming the unprofessional winning posts we put up with when I recently complained about Redcliffe
I remembered this thread so I am adding another here
Ballarat - pretty average (having an advertising board just as big as the post just a few metres past it adds to the confusion)

[brent_L]

Just watched Rangiora (grass) R8 on sky1 and the winning post seems to simply be a big stick stuck in the ground with what looks a stewards ladder (which was unmanned) behind it......very bizarre!

[Messenger]

Just watched Rangiora (grass) R8 on sky1 and the winning post seems to simply be a big stick stuck in the ground with what looks a stewards ladder (which was unmanned) behind it......very bizarre!

Your lot are very resourceful when it comes to improvisation TC lol

[Messenger]

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