Luke Mccarthy enquiry adjourned

[barney]

Was adjourned until the 21/5 to enable him to review evidence.

Wrap is on www.harness.org/stewards wrap

[p plater]

From what I understand, had Luke not faired well yesterday ALL his horses would not have been allowed to start on Saturday night.
Is that correct?

[broncobrad]

Barney, I had trouble accessing that story on your link, found it on http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18136

The most optomistic person in the land would not be too chipper about Lukes current predicament at present. Even if he had the 'lawyer to the stars' Chris Murphy in his corner, what has already gone before ( ie the Barry Lew case), the precedent has already been set. If I was Luke, I too would be getting every stay of proceedings possible and employ any delaying tactic I could to prolong what is a foregone conclusion. I have nothing but admiration for what he has achieved in such a short time and it will be a blight on the industry, but eventually he will have to either prove his innocence or serve a penalty. And before anyone zaps this, there is nothing defamatory here, just my opinion on what is in the public arena. Reckon p plater is correct, the stewards would have imposed their penalty immediately and a lot of horses would have changed trainer quick smart. Other owners should not be penalised.

[p plater]

From what I was told, in the recent P Morris case, all his horses were barred from racing for 2 weeks after a change of trainer. This maybe incorrect but if true as Brad has mentioned, what a great penalty against some high profile owners who put a lot of money into the sport

[teecee]

A Butt issued with a trainers licence here to carry on where T Butt left off. No standown of horses. Same with Barry Lew...no standdown of horses.
Both cases penalty started immediately.

[gregcattell]

read L McCarthy found guilty today been adjourned till tommorrow for penilty,also read on harness web horse search that B McCarthy is new trainner of some if not all in stable.
Good luck to all.

[Diablo]

The blight on the industry is if Belinda Mcarthy is allowed to immediately obtain a Trainer's Licence and takeover the team. That would only indicate that L Mc would be calling all the shots. Technically it will be accepted that she would be able to do that, morally it's wrong. In the P Morris case, their horses were sidelined for four weeks while a change of trainer was finalized. What are the rules? They seem to change at various times depending on who's involved. Maybe it's technicalities.
If L Mc horses are stood down there is a good chance that a prominent owner from the camp will seek an injunction against this weeks meeting. Interesting stuff ahead.

[geoffkel]

This has been happening in all codes for years. If a Freedman got outed then another brother would take over. If John Hawkes had of been done when by himself then one of his sons would have taken over etc.

[geoffkel]

9 Months but this will drag on under a stay I would say!!!

[racefair]

Unlucky Luke to go on this. I'm sure that you'll bounce back bigger and better. Take a holiday and start again in a few months time. No big problem. You're still way ahead of everyone else and good luck to you for being the smartest and the one to make the most money out of the game.
On another note, I'd like to know where ALL the pundits are that claimed that it was impossible for Luke to be using performance enhancing drugs?

[gregcattell]

B McCarthy has horses in at Menangle trials today
Melton Friday,& 9 nominated for Menangle
Saturday
Good Luck

[aussiebreno]

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMq1rJC_O4ZPsoG_6LIOvvD6Z4-bhJrvCyq68nuQIoUluFd_uM

I'll bring the cake....

In all seriousness though it is good news drug cheats get kicked out like this. You never quite know what other horses of McCarthys (and other cheats) had prohibited substances in their system and it sucks majorly for the industry - the day we have a level playing field is the day the sport is allowed to become successful throughout the country. Also, it sucks the horses can just be transferred like that but thems the rules.

[barney]

Seems that horses cant be transferred to his wife unless she moves to new stables.Must admit surprised that the people on here who were so forthcoming about Luke being so much better than anyone else have gone quiet now he has been suspended. Personally are disappointed as the sport does need a celebrity and he seemed like the one.

[mango]

Hi Brian
Where did you read that the horses can't be transferred to his wife unless she move's to new stables.

[Danno]

Dallas,
point 2.1(a)

http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files...f%20Horses.pdf (http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files/Policies/636.0%20-%20Disqualifications%20-%20Transfer%20of%20Horses.pdf)

[Diablo]

I agree 100% with racefair. Under that arrangement, Luke McCarthy didn't recieve a disqualification but purely a hand brake. He will still earn from the sport and maintain all his clients through a puppet. Not just a farce but makes the Stewards and the rules look like imbeciles and treats the honest folk in the sport like mugs.

[Triple V]

Well said.

[Duane Ranger]

"I've done nothing wrong" - Luke McCarthy

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97792

[Duane Ranger]

Reid Sanders - HRNSW stringent drug testing

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97793

[racefair]

Making assumptions as to Belinda's credentials as a trainer is a joke. Belinda has held a trainers licence for a number of years and went through the same procedure as anyone else does to obtain one. I think I am safe to assume she did not find one in the packet of cornflakes. As far as her ability as a horseperson, maybe some homework should have been done before comments were passed. Belinda's background in this industry speaks for itself.

I am also assuming I am speaking for a number of wives, partners, girlfriends, stablehands etc etc, maintaining a racing stable is not on the shoulders of just the main man. Speaking from my own perspective, even though my name does not appear next to a horse on a stable return form, nor in a racebook or formguide, does not mean my capabilities are any less than the person, whose name that does appear. I am sure this is the same in Belinda's case. As the saying goes, behind every man is a good woman.

Owners who have horses with Luke, would obviously be fully aware of how the stable operates on a day to day basis and Belinda's involvement with the training of their horses. To openly say that (quote) - if owners retain Belinda as a trainer, then they believe in something else (unquote) - is completely slanderous. It is completely the owner's discretion as to who they place their horse with, and if they retain the services of Belinda McCarthy, they should not be branded with sinister inuendoes.

I've got no idea about her potential and she could be the next star. I hope that she is. I haven't heard of her as a trainer nor seen her name attached to any winners. So then, the facts are that she has no record like Fitzpatrick, Thorn, or Luke McCarthy himself etc. Nothing slanderous here. Owners can do as they please and you get the point that was being made.

[broncobrad]

It would appear that Luke is not accepting of the judgement and is prepared to take it to the Supreme Court if need be. If I have read the following article correctly has Belinda been denied the opportunity to train the affected horses by HRNSW? http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97792

[broncobrad]

The whole article by Steve Dolan really is quite a remarkable document. If reported accurately, some of the statements made by Luke opens him up to further action by HRNSW, in particular "I don't have a lot of faith in the people in charge here or their judicial system". Surely as a licenced (DQ) person this statement in the public arena will be frowned upon by the regulatory folk as bringing the sport into further disrepute. Especially after a few weeks ago when Reid Sanders warned licenced persons making such statements that they should be careful with what they say. He really SHOULD have his lawyer speaking for him at all times.

[broncobrad]

And then there is this little pearler of a poser to all about the action HRNSW has taken...have they gone too far?

So the question may well be for many, guilty or not, does the punishment fit the crime? Or is Harness Racing New South Wales in their effort to clean the sport up in their State, over flexing their muscle and thus affecting the livelihood of those who are guilty by association only. (http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97793)

Get real. All any of the honest participants could ask for is a level playing field. Sanders is working towards cleaning up the game so everyone gets a fair go. We all knew it was going to get worse before it got better. You cannot expect the industry to have ANY INTEGRITY if they walked away from their recent efforts just because a big name goes down. It is true that there WILL be a big impact in many ways (owners, staff etc) and much disruption, but it should not be the end of the world for an industry that IS bigger than one person. Kudos and congratulations to HRNSW who are stepping up to the mark and not dodging their responsibilities. On the downside they might have a few more legal battles which may be hard to defend but no-one ever won a war without a scratch or two.

[aussiebreno]

Although I haven't questioned Belinda's credentials and don't intend to if anyone thinks it is legitimate that she will be training in her own right (why one would think that I don't know) Luke has put that to bed. From the 'I've done nothing wrong' article here is a quote from Luke.

"I will make sure the horses still race and my owners are looked after. I've spoken to most and they're all very supportive," said McCarthy"

If Belinda was to be a legitimate trainer wouldnt it be 'We' or 'our' instead of I and my? Belinda might have her name in the book but Luke has just told us they're his owners and horses, not Belinda's or anyone elses.

There is a lot more I want to say on this McCarthy matter but alas I better not.

[William]

Owners who have horses with Luke, would obviously be fully aware of how the stable operates on a day to day basis and Belinda's involvement with the training of their horses. s.

Which just goes to underline what a joke it is if the horses can be transferred straight into her name. It will just be business as usual, in other words, no penalty at all

[mark diegutis]

Reid Sanders - HRNSW stringent drug testing

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97793



Hi Duane , found this article which makes intresting reading re steroids & how they are used .



At the same AAEP meeting, trainer/veterinarian John
Kimmel – a practicing racetrack veterinarian for several
years before he became a trainer – stood up in front of 100
race track veterinarians and asked, “When are we going to
ban anabolic steroids?” He went on to say anabolic steroids
allow a trainer to train a horse harder than would otherwise
be possible naturally and, for that reason, should be eliminated

[Triple V]

What puzzles me more than anything else at this point is that in recent times here in NSW we've had a Trainer score no less than an apparent Methamphetamine positive, it being an illegal drug that puts you in jail if you're found in possession of it...and we've had another Trainer score an EPO positive, it being a highly restricted and prescription only Human medication that has apparently somehow turned up in his horse...and yet nobody seems to want their respective Jatz Crackers hanging from a Flag Pole?????
All that anyone and their dogs want to bang on about is Luke's Boldenone overage. Some significant Double Standards at work perhaps?
I think it was Bruce Fox who recently went for 6 months for Salbutamol/Ventolin and apparently nobody gave a bugger. Old mate the Vet from Liverpool also went for Clenbuterol and again nobody gave a bugger. Barry went for 6 months for exactly the same thing that Luke has gone for 9 months for and once again, as far as Barry was concerned, apparently nobody really gave a bugger.
The difference between those 3 blokes and Luke? Yep, that's right...here's where the hypocrisy runs rife.
Those three blokes were not winning race after race after race, week after a week after week...so they were not seen as competition to anywhere near the same degree, so basically nobody cared. Luke was competition however & the outrage is duly multiplied 20 fold.
Race clean, race fair...my arse. It's smoke and mirrors and by and large it is not about those noble aims at all.
If it was then the supporters of those views would have thumped Bruce & the Vet & Barry just as much...which they quite clearly have not. This is big target, Tall Poppy stuff, no more, no less. Each one of those blokes, including Luke, has scored just (1) positive...but thus far only one of them has worn the full weight of public criticism.

[Starship Captain]

This is a very unfortunate situation for Lukes team, but as you have pointed out the tall poppy syndrome seems to be in full swing.

ps
I hate people that drive Ferrari's

[aussiebreno]

What puzzles me more than anything else at this point is that in recent times here in NSW we've had a Trainer score no less than an apparent Methamphetamine positive, it being an illegal drug that puts you in jail if you're found in possession of it...and we've had another Trainer score an EPO positive, it being a highly restricted and prescription only Human medication that has apparently somehow turned up in his horse...and yet nobody seems to want their respective Jatz Crackers hanging from a Flag Pole?????
All that anyone and their dogs want to bang on about is Luke's Boldenone overage. Some significant Double Standards at work perhaps?
I think it was Bruce Fox who recently went for 6 months for Salbutamol/Ventolin and apparently nobody gave a bugger. Old mate the Vet from Liverpool also went for Clenbuterol and again nobody gave a bugger. Barry went for 6 months for exactly the same thing that Luke has gone for 9 months for and once again, as far as Barry was concerned, apparently nobody really gave a bugger.
The difference between those 3 blokes and Luke? Yep, that's right...here's where the hypocrisy runs rife.
Those three blokes were not winning race after race after race, week after a week after week...so they were not seen as competition to anywhere near the same degree, so basically nobody cared. Luke was competition however & the outrage is duly multiplied 20 fold.
Race clean, race fair...my arse. It's smoke and mirrors and by and large it is not about those noble aims at all.
If it was then the supporters of those views would have thumped Bruce & the Vet & Barry just as much...which they quite clearly have not. This is big target, Tall Poppy stuff, no more, no less. Each one of those blokes, including Luke, has scored just (1) positive...but thus far only one of them has worn the full weight of public criticism.
Make no mistake my hatred isn't at individuals as people, rather at their behaviour of cheating and doing good people out of a buck. The hatred of this is on par with all drug cheats. Some of it just gets displayed more because some are higher profile.
Luke was/is the biggest name in the sport over the past season or two. The views displayed by this forum and the wider harness racing public are human nature VVV. Not too dissimiliar to the stewards saga and your own emotions. Remember when you were more disapointed when you heard a couple of names because you really didn't expect it from them. For different characters different emotions become evoked. You were more disapointed in one case, what is wrong with others being more angry in another case? But yes, some still is the tall poppy syndrome.

[Starship Captain]

One question? The steriod used in this case stays in the system of the horse a long time? is there something that is given to hide it's presence?

If giving this to a horse without some sort of masking agent, would'nt it be like painting your horse pink and driving it naked in the race?

[broncobrad]

What puzzles me more than anything else at this point is that in recent times here in NSW we've had a Trainer score no less than an apparent Methamphetamine positive, it being an illegal drug that puts you in jail if you're found in possession of it...and we've had another Trainer score an EPO positive, it being a highly restricted and prescription only Human medication that has apparently somehow turned up in his horse...and yet nobody seems to want their respective Jatz Crackers hanging from a Flag Pole?????
All that anyone and their dogs want to bang on about is Luke's Boldenone overage.
I think the outrage is underwhelming when you consider the lynch mob mentality not that long ago on this forum, those who were baying for blood and having Luke drawn and quartered would only have appeased 1/10 of his detractors. Even tonight by those standards its pretty quiet on here. Maybe the state of origin about to kick off may be a diversion.
Some significant Double Standards at work perhaps?
I think it was Bruce Fox who recently went for 6 months for Salbutamol/Ventolin and apparently nobody gave a bugger. Copped his punishment, sweet.
Old mate the Vet from Liverpool also went for Clenbuterol and again nobody gave a bugger. Barry went for 6 months for exactly the same thing that Luke has gone for 9 months for and once again, as far as Barry was concerned, apparently nobody really gave a bugger. I don't think Barry was ignored at all Triple, the whole boldenone saga got a good airing. He lost his Dad recently and I think people showed enough good grace to go easy.
The difference between those 3 blokes and Luke? Yep, that's right...here's where the hypocrisy runs rife.
Those three blokes were not winning race after race after race, week after a week after week...so they were not seen as competition to anywhere near the same degree, so basically nobody cared. Luke was competition however & the outrage is duly multiplied 20 fold.
Race clean, race fair...my arse. It's smoke and mirrors and by and large it is not about those noble aims at all. Must be missing something here Jaimie, if it is not about integrity and a level playing field, what is it. The stewards cannot just say, oh shit its Luke, lets go quiet. They kept the issue open and public and dispensed justice to him as they would have to any other rule breaker.
If it was then the supporters of those views would have thumped Bruce & the Vet & Barry just as much...which they quite clearly have not. This is big target, Tall Poppy stuff, no more, no less. Each one of those blokes, including Luke, has scored just (1) positive...but thus far only one of them has worn the full weight of public criticism.It may well be tall poppy syndrome but he is being treated the same as any other licencee who falls foul. Consistency is a pretty hard ideal to invoke but these guys are doing as good a job as they can within the rules and framework that they have to administer. And to clarify one thing. I was a supporter of Luke and I loved his driving style of putting his horses into a race. So to say I am dissapointed in this whole sorry saga is a big understatement.

[Diablo]

Some real Twits on here that think just because Belinda McCarthy has a trainer's Licence she woul be just as accomplished as Luke. Give me a break! How many of the top trainers in the world have spouses as equal in training knowledge or ability as the trainer himself/herself?

[racefair]

What puzzles me more than anything else at this point is that in recent times here in NSW we've had a Trainer score no less than an apparent Methamphetamine positive, it being an illegal drug that puts you in jail if you're found in possession of it...and we've had another Trainer score an EPO positive, it being a highly restricted and prescription only Human medication that has apparently somehow turned up in his horse...and yet nobody seems to want their respective Jatz Crackers hanging from a Flag Pole?????
All that anyone and their dogs want to bang on about is Luke's Boldenone overage. Some significant Double Standards at work perhaps?
I think it was Bruce Fox who recently went for 6 months for Salbutamol/Ventolin and apparently nobody gave a bugger. Old mate the Vet from Liverpool also went for Clenbuterol and again nobody gave a bugger. Barry went for 6 months for exactly the same thing that Luke has gone for 9 months for and once again, as far as Barry was concerned, apparently nobody really gave a bugger.
The difference between those 3 blokes and Luke? Yep, that's right...here's where the hypocrisy runs rife.
Those three blokes were not winning race after race after race, week after a week after week...so they were not seen as competition to anywhere near the same degree, so basically nobody cared. Luke was competition however & the outrage is duly multiplied 20 fold.
Race clean, race fair...my arse. It's smoke and mirrors and by and large it is not about those noble aims at all.
If it was then the supporters of those views would have thumped Bruce & the Vet & Barry just as much...which they quite clearly have not. This is big target, Tall Poppy stuff, no more, no less. Each one of those blokes, including Luke, has scored just (1) positive...but thus far only one of them has worn the full weight of public criticism.

Jamie, I'm not sure why after all this time you still don't understand the frustration and disappointment of the harness racing community. I'll highlight a few points that I've previously brought to attention.
1. Luke's rate and nature of the improvement that he gets in horses seemed to people to be unnatural. There are few examples if any of athletes or horses improving at the rate that Luke got them to improve unless of course through medication. Refer to Thomas Tobins book and the type/rate of improvement that he'd get through stimulants, etc. and also any athletic conditioning book and the rate of improvement of elite athletes or horses.
2. Luke has improved just about every horse that he's trained and in a time that would seem unreasonable to to be the result of training alone.
3. Lukes strike rate was getting to be about 50% which was about 30% ahead of any other trainer in harness racing or thoroughbreds. Again, an unbelievable result. So then if you were racing against Luke in a 10horse field, you'd have less than a 5% chance of winning if Luke only had 1 horse in the race. You're odds decreased if he had 2.
4. XXXXXXXXXXXX
5. Old mate Vet, Barry Lew etc.. may have cheated on a small scale with a few horses. They're not beating you time after time and costing you every time you run out.
6. XXXXXXXXXXXX
So then, there could be tall poppy syndrome. . .I think however, it's more about the commercial reality of it all and that everyone wants to participate on a level playing field.

[Starship Captain]

http://www.buysteroidsaustralia.com/

It looks like a good site:¬/

[Triple V]

Make no mistake my hatred isn't at individuals as people, rather at their behaviour of cheating and doing good people out of a buck. The hatred of this is on par with all drug cheats. Some of it just gets displayed more because some are higher profile.
Luke was/is the biggest name in the sport over the past season or two. The views displayed by this forum and the wider harness racing public are human nature VVV. Not too dissimiliar to the stewards saga and your own emotions. Remember when you were more disapointed when you heard a couple of names because you really didn't expect it from them. For different characters different emotions become evoked. You were more disapointed in one case, what is wrong with others being more angry in another case? But yes, some still is the tall poppy syndrome.

[VVV] That's fair comment. From my perspective Meth & EPO Positives are reprehensible. They simply don't compare with Boldenone, Ventolin or Clenbuterol...they're not even in the same State let alone the same Post Code. It's like comparing a cannon to a pointed stick. Consequently I expected the level of outrage to be similarly applicable. Others apparently have a different view. It still amazes me that to this point nobody has said anything about the Meth & the EPO....seriously, what gives there?

[mark diegutis]

[VVV] That's fair comment. From my perspective Meth & EPO Positives are reprehensible. They simply don't compare with Boldenone, Ventolin or Clenbuterol...they're not even in the same State let alone the same Post Code. It's like comparing a cannon to a pointed stick. Consequently I expected the level of outrage to be similarly applicable. Others apparently have a different view. It still amazes me that to this point nobody has said anything about the Meth & the EPO....seriously, what gives there?


Hi Jaimie . The reason people are outraged over LM's Boldenone positive is because he has XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
The EPO and Meth positives are just as treacherous { but only as treacherous } . These trainers were lucky to be seen at a harness meeting . They are every bit as despicable . The benefits of Boldenone are , more recently , just being understood . Boldenone causes the body to produce large amounts of EPO with other benefits such as causing a healthy appetite . I think this steroid is as dangerous for our industry as any substance . Possibly the most damaging factor is that it has educated other trainers who would be willing to source and use it to gain advantage . Attached is a recent study done on the benefits of Boldenone .

One further property of boldenone that is most advantageous to athletes who partake in cardiovascular exercises is that boldenone directly stimulates the kidneys to produce erythropoeitin (EPO). EPO is a hormone that increases the number of red blood cells in your blood, thus increasing blood viscosity but more importantly allowing more oxygen to be carried to the cells in your body, improving performance of aerobic exercises. This may also help increase vascularity in users as well.

[aussiebreno]

[VVV] That's fair comment. From my perspective Meth & EPO Positives are reprehensible. They simply don't compare with Boldenone, Ventolin or Clenbuterol...they're not even in the same State let alone the same Post Code. It's like comparing a cannon to a pointed stick. Consequently I expected the level of outrage to be similarly applicable. Others apparently have a different view. It still amazes me that to this point nobody has said anything about the Meth & the EPO....seriously, what gives there?
Yes I take that on board. Roots slipped by largely unnoticed. Wonson is yet to have his inquiry completed, though I think he too will slip by largely unnoticed. The advantages of being a relative no name. Being in the public eye has its benefit but it sucks in instances like this for Luke - there is no doubt he has copped it more than others but I won't be feeling sorry for him. I'm sure Craig Thompson isn't the first bloke to use someone else's money, but he has sure copped it more than most.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Wow what a thread this has become..... the lets bash L McCarthy thread.

Lets get some truths into it.

To say L McCarthy has raped the industry simply because he has one positive swab is an absolute disgrace. Many of his winners have been swabbed and have found to be clear of prohibited substances, it would be akin to saying Karloo Mick is no good and Barry Lew would have never won a race with him because a stablemate returned a positive to a steroid.again ridiculous.

These assumptions or accusations could have been made with some validity if the test for Boldenone was discovered last November but that is not the case it has been around for a long time.

Steroids have been banned for years in both equine codes and for years trainers in both codes have experimented with ways around it, both codes any many trainers were using testosterone in very small does a couple of years back until testing again caught up, that is the nature of racing and we need to get used to it.

All the swabs and people mentioned by VVV have one thing in common the drugs that have been found in their horses are not considered therapeutic, so the authorities should act and in my view have done so accordingly, in the end in some case that will be reviewed when the cases are appealed.

Had HRNSW allowed the transfer of horses to B McCarthy not only would it have looked a joke, because regardless of her ability of otherwise it would have been a joke.

This from time to time occurred in the past but HRNSW changed their policy in August last year and have invoked it since, this is not a ruling unique to L McCarthy congratulations to them.

I do have something in common with every other person on this thread in that I have no idea how Boldenone was found in two horses last year but I do know it is in breach of the rules and to me at least it appears our rule makers have acted consistently in both cases...... as an industry what more do we want.

Last time I looked not one jurisdiction in world racing was hanging trainers for positive swabs.

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=Thevoiceofreason;20886]Wow what a thread this has become..... the lets bash L McCarthy thread.

Lets get some truths into it.

To say L McCarthy has raped the industry simply because he has one positive swab is an absolute disgrace. Many of his winners have been swabbed and have found to be clear of prohibited substances, it would be akin to saying Karloo Mick is no good and Barry Lew would have never won a race with him because a stablemate returned a positive to a steroid.again ridiculous.

These assumptions or accusations could have been made with some validity if the test for Boldenone was discovered last November but that is not the case it has been around for a long time.

Steroids have been banned for years in both equine codes and for years trainers in both codes have experimented with ways around it, both codes any many trainers were using testosterone in very small does a couple of years back until testing again caught up, that is the nature of racing and we need to get used to it.

All the swabs and people mentioned by VVV have one thing in common the drugs that have been found in their horses are not considered therapeutic, so the authorities should act and in my view have done so accordingly, in the end in some case that will be reviewed when the cases are appealed.

Had HRNSW allowed the transfer of horses to B McCarthy not only would it have looked a joke, because regardless of her ability of otherwise it would have been a joke.


Fair comment Voice . I think that the term "rape the industry" is how most perceive what has happened . I agree , these substances have no therapeutic value and the fact is you can't mistakenly administer it like , say , bute . I personally can't believe that someone with a "clean racing " mindset would think of using such an advanced form of cheating first time . And yet they are still hero's in this industry . I have nothing against Luke personally but I despise cheats and can't , for the life of me , understand why people hero worship harness racing trainers who cheat . The fact that 6 out of the 8 runners in the Miracle Mile were with trainers that have had positive swabs is almost unbelievable and disgusting . HRNSW is doing a great job . 28 positives lately tells me I had been banging my head against a post since I entered the industry as a trainer / driver . At this time NO ONE can go to the races and believe they are racing on a level playing field . Its quite sad talking to people around the stables and races . No one has a positive outlook and ALL talk is completely negative and Armageddon like . HRNSW have stood up to be counted . Keep it up and thanks .

[mark diegutis]

Well said.. So then if this is true then using Boldonene is similar to using EPO itself .. Maybe Lukes suspension was way too light. Good job Reid Sanders for staying strong and not folding under the pressure of a few inluential owners and high profile crooks in the game.

Yes Jett . Using this substance has other benefits besides the EPO production . It causes a veracious appetite . Horses can be worked much harder than would be normal and come home and still eat whatever is placed in front of them . These effects would give the horse an advantage for half a dozen or so starts . If trained well , their first starts would be devastating

[racefair]

Wow what a thread this has become..... the lets bash L McCarthy thread.

Lets get some truths into it.

To say L McCarthy has raped the industry simply because he has one positive swab is an absolute disgrace. Many of his winners have been swabbed and have found to be clear of prohibited substances, it would be akin to saying Karloo Mick is no good and Barry Lew would have never won a race with him because a stablemate returned a positive to a steroid.again ridiculous.

These assumptions or accusations could have been made with some validity if the test for Boldenone was discovered last November but that is not the case it has been around for a long time.

Steroids have been banned for years in both equine codes and for years trainers in both codes have experimented with ways around it, both codes any many trainers were using testosterone in very small does a couple of years back until testing again caught up, that is the nature of racing and we need to get used to it.

All the swabs and people mentioned by VVV have one thing in common the drugs that have been found in their horses are not considered therapeutic, so the authorities should act and in my view have done so accordingly, in the end in some case that will be reviewed when the cases are appealed.

Had HRNSW allowed the transfer of horses to B McCarthy not only would it have looked a joke, because regardless of her ability of otherwise it would have been a joke.

This from time to time occurred in the past but HRNSW changed their policy in August last year and have invoked it since, this is not a ruling unique to L McCarthy congratulations to them.

I do have something in common with every other person on this thread in that I have no idea how Boldenone was found in two horses last year but I do know it is in breach of the rules and to me at least it appears our rule makers have acted consistently in both cases...... as an industry what more do we want.

Last time I looked not one jurisdiction in world racing was hanging trainers for positive swabs.

Some dribble here Bill. Many in their ivory towers don't have skin in the game and therefore don't feel the pain of coming 2nd etc to the likes of Luke or other cheats. As they have skin in the game, are hands on etc. .. they have a level of understanding of what it takes to improve a horse etc. . So although you only see the data of 1 positive swab, they through many years in the game have valid reasons to think that there are other factors at play and that there may be more horses being doped.
On your comments around the test. Maybe a new test for Boldonene came in that you or others didn't know about. You don't know everything. Why did Barry Lew and Luke Mc go on the same night? Luke then comes out to say that he's never heard of the stuff. . Well, if he's as professional as all suggest, then I'd expect him to know what Boldonene is.

[Triple V]

Yes Jett . Using this substance has other benefits besides the EPO production . It causes a veracious appetite . Horses can be worked much harder than would be normal and come home and still eat whatever is placed in front of them . These effects would give the horse an advantage for half a dozen or so starts . If trained well , their first starts would be devastating

[VVV] Hey Mark,
Aside from the much appreciated touches of journalistic licence there by way of 'EPO', 'voracious appetite' and 'worked much harder than would be normal'...I wonder if you and others are aware of the rather duplicitious nature of banging away at Boldenone allegedly prompting a horse's Kidneys to produce more of the horse's own naturally occurring Erythropoieten...whilst clearly thus far having left a Trainer with a confirmed Human EPO positive virutally as alone as a lost child at the Sydney Easter Show?
What about old mate from The Hunter? ...the bloke to apparently jammed Meth into his horse? Where's the moral outrage there? I shudder to think what it does to a horse.
Forgive me, I forgot...you are not racing against those two blokes every week are you?
My mistake. :rolleyes:
Seriously mate, if it's one in then it's all in and if we're being consistent with the outrage then they ALL deserve to get jammed, equally so. Play hard ball by all means but please, go with the all inclusive version and not the selective one.

[Triple V]

Hi Jaimie . The reason people are outraged over LM's Boldenone positive is because he has , basically , raped the industry . The EPO and Meth positives are just as treacherous { but only as treacherous } . These trainers were lucky to be seen at a harness meeting . They are every bit as despicable . The benefits of Boldenone are , more recently , just being understood . Boldenone causes the body to produce large amounts of EPO with other benefits such as causing a healthy appetite . I think this steroid is as dangerous for our industry as any substance . Possibly the most damaging factor is that it has educated other trainers who would be willing to source and use it to gain advantage . Attached is a recent study done on the benefits of Boldenone .

One further property of boldenone that is most advantageous to athletes who partake in cardiovascular exercises is that boldenone directly stimulates the kidneys to produce erythropoeitin (EPO). EPO is a hormone that increases the number of red blood cells in your blood, thus increasing blood viscosity but more importantly allowing more oxygen to be carried to the cells in your body, improving performance of aerobic exercises. This may also help increase vascularity in users as well.

[VVV] I've seen some absolute beauties over the years Mark...and I freely admit to having been responsible for my fair share of same...however that takes the cake.
For you to suggest that Luke has raped the Industry off the back of a single Boldenone Positive is disgraceful and for mine it underlines just how far past the red zone at the of the tachometer that this debate has now gone.
Press the pedal down much further & the pistons are likely to blast through the cylinder head and punch holes through the bonnet.

Furthermore, fair dinkum....how you could possibly seek to equate Positives for Meth & EPO...with Boldenone? Mate...that leaves me baffled.

For starters, obviously neither Methamphetamine nor EPO have established thresholds.

Boldenone however, does.

Does that aspect alone start to ring any bells at all?

Unlike Meth and EPO, for the purposes of racing Boldenone is NOT an illegal substance.
It is instead allowed to be present up to an established & published threshold (with this and, as you and many others know, a whole series of other therapeutic thresholds having long been a soap box of mine).
This is a legal substance overage, not an illegal substance presence.
Equating Boldenone with Meth & EPO is akin to equating Heroin with Bute. I'm sure you see the stark difference there too.

It's an emotive issue Mark...& ultimately while we're all coming at it from different angles we all want the same thing in the end, which is the betterment of Harness Racing and that which will ensure its furture. Nevertheless, I'd go and retract the raped the industy charge because it doesn't reflect at all well on anyone, especially so yourself.

[mark diegutis]

[VVV] Hey Mark,
Aside from the much appreciated touches of journalistic licence there by way of 'EPO', 'voracious appetite' and 'worked much harder than would be normal'...I wonder if you and others are aware of the rather duplicitious nature of banging away at Boldenone allegedly prompting a horse's Kidneys to produce more of the horse's own naturally occurring Erythropoieten...whilst clearly thus far having left a Trainer with a confirmed Human EPO positive virutally as alone as a lost child at the Sydney Easter Show?
What about old mate from The Hunter? ...the bloke to apparently jammed Meth into his horse? Where's the moral outrage there? I shudder to think what it does to a horse.
Forgive me, I forgot...you are not racing against those two blokes every week are you?
My mistake. :rolleyes:
Seriously mate, if it's one in then it's all in and if we're being consistent with the outrage then they ALL deserve to get jammed, equally so. Play hard ball by all means but please, go with the all inclusive version and not the selective one.

Hi Jaimie . They do ALL deserved to get jammed . I have raced against these 2 blokes on a number of occasions . I was beaten by one of then sitting outside my horse and grinding him down at Harold park . That horse went positive . Any one who cheats affects everyone in the entire industry . Boldonone DOES cause the body to produce EPO , not allegedly . I stated fact . I,m not racing against those 2 now . I never ran against Ben Johnson either myself but that is just as wrong . I really can't understand your first "go" at journalistic license . Those extracts are just correct English . Is that really that bad ? I'm not into playing hardball on a forum . I haven't made any comment until after the judges decision . Innocent until proven guilty but guilty if proven so . The tone of your comments is is to try and make me look like a fool . I can't understand that . I gave you more credit than that .

[mark diegutis]

[VVV] I've seen some absolute beauties over the years Mark...and I freely admit to having been responsible for my fair share of same...however that takes the cake.
For you to suggest that Luke has raped the Industry off the back of a single Boldenone Positive is disgraceful and for mine it underlines just how far past the red zone at the of the tachometer that this debate has now gone.
Press the pedal down much further & the pistons are likely to blast through the cylinder head and punch holes through the bonnet.

Furthermore, fair dinkum....how you could possibly seek to equate Positives for Meth & EPO...with Boldenone? Mate...that leaves me baffled.

For starters, obviously neither Methamphetamine nor EPO have established thresholds.

Boldenone however, does.

Does that aspect alone start to ring any bells at all?

Unlike Meth and EPO, for the purposes of racing Boldenone is NOT an illegal substance.
It is instead allowed to be present up to an established & published threshold (with this and, as you and many others know, a whole series of other therapeutic thresholds having long been a soap box of mine).
This is a legal substance overage, not an illegal substance presence.
Equating Boldenone with Meth & EPO is akin to equating Heroin with Bute. I'm sure you see the stark difference there too.

It's an emotive issue Mark...& ultimately while we're all coming at it from different angles we all want the same thing in the end, which is the betterment of Harness Racing and that which will ensure its furture. Nevertheless, I'd go and retract the raped the industy charge because it doesn't reflect at all well on anyone, especially so yourself.

Hi Triple . I did state after that most "perceived " that he had raped the industry . I did correct that . As far as boldenone is concerned . It is quickly becoming the choice steroid of abuse for stamina related competition . Having a set threshold only means that it is a naturally occurring substance . We have a threshold for bi carb and bi carb is the equal of any performance enhancing substance going around . We shouldn't all hate each other because of someone using steroids .

[Triple V]

Hi Jaimie . They do ALL deserved to get jammed . I have raced against these 2 blokes on a number of occasions . I was beaten by one of then sitting outside my horse and grinding him down at Harold park . That horse went positive . Any one who cheats affects everyone in the entire industry . Boldonone DOES cause the body to produce EPO , not allegedly . I stated fact . I,m not racing against those 2 now . I never ran against Ben Johnson either myself but that is just as wrong . I really can't understand your first "go" at journalistic license . Those extracts are just correct English . Is that really that bad ? I'm not into playing hardball on a forum . I haven't made any comment until after the judges decision . Innocent until proven guilty but guilty if proven so . The tone of your comments is is to try and make me look like a fool . I can't understand that . I gave you more credit than that .

[VVV] Not at all. Not trying to make you look like a fool Mark, not at all...I like journalistic licence & emotive language as much as the next guy if not more.
Rather, what I am trying to get at is the disproportionate level of outrage vis-a'-vis the seriousness of the respective positives that I noted previously.
Boldenone-Methamphetamine-Erythropoieten. That line-up prompts me to think back to the old Sesame Street song the now no doubt well and truly deceased Mr. Hooper used to sing. "Which one of these is not like the others" "Tell me..can you guess which one?".
That's what I'm getting at. Would 'selective outrage' cover it do you think?

[Triple V]

Hi Triple . I did state after that most "perceived " that he had raped the industry . I did correct that . As far as boldenone is concerned . It is quickly becoming the choice steroid of abuse for stamina related competition . Having a set threshold only means that it is a naturally occurring substance . We have a threshold for bi carb and bi carb is the equal of any performance enhancing substance going around . We shouldn't all hate each other because of someone using steroids .

[VVV] G'day Mark,
I'm kind of surprised that Boldenone is all of a suddeen quickly become anything Mark. The reason I say that is not to be a smart arse but rather that if in fact it is...then it has sure taken its time. Boldenone has been around for Donkey's, must be at least 30 years as far as I can recall, might even be a bit more. Nobody's hating anyone either by the way, there are very few people in this world that I genuinely hate...for sure one is a red headed ex communist turned eco-marxist and perenial test pilot for a broom factory that currently resides in Canberra but not for much longer...and while there are probably others, they certainly don't come immediately to mind.

[mark diegutis]

[VVV] G'day Mark,
I'm kind of surprised that Boldenone is all of a suddeen quickly become anything Mark. The reason I say that is not to be a smart arse but rather that if in fact it is...then it has sure taken its time. Boldenone has been around for Donkey's, must be at least 30 years as far as I can recall, might even be a bit more. Nobody's hating anyone either by the way, there are very few people in this world that I genuinely hate...for sure one is a red headed ex communist turned eco-marxist and perenial test pilot for a broom factory that currently resides in Canberra but not for much longer...and while there are probably others, they certainly don't come immediately to mind.

Hi Jaimie . I agree 1000% . The redhead has to go . Boldonone is one of those drugs that has gone under the radar . Its benefits are now being realised . A bit like Aspirin . All the best , Mark

[Toohard]

Don't want to buy into any arguments but what I don't understand is he doesn't seem to me like he's silly. Don't know him but he doesn't come across as silly, quite the opposite in fact. I'm not being derogatory to Newcastle or anyone else, but on form the horse wins the race anyway. Why would he risk everything he's built up over 10 years for the Newcastle Cup? Just doesn't make sense to me. All this crap he's going through now for a 30k race? He knows the winner gets swabbed, why would he do it?

Horse has exceeded a threshold. Not been found guilty of giving horse an illegal substance. Sure he loses the race but 9 months?

[broncobrad]

To Mark....last night I saw a comment that I am sure was made by you, in regard to boldenone being either undetectable or out of the system after 17 days (or so) and I thought thats pretty interesting but I cannot find it today. That bloody State Of Origin match took priority over last nights discussion. Either I am dreaming or the comment was zapped because it wasn't backed up with a source. Not even sure if it was your comment, but if it was, could you repeat your statement (with a source) because I have not read anywhere of this short term property before.

Cheers Brad

[Starship Captain]

Brad, I was looking for that same post as it was a reply to a question I had and I wanted to say thank you to Mark.

[mango]

Hi Brad

Mark deleted the comment himself.

[broncobrad]

Thanks Dallas

[mark diegutis]

Thanks Dallas

Hi Brad . I deleted the post because I am going through , what seems like , thousands of reports to access my source . I read many medical reports whether at work or on the computer at home and I will certainly let you know as soon as I find it

[Triple V]

G'day Lee,
There's a significant difference between someone using an illegal substance that has no place ever being found in any horse(Meth, EPO etc) and getting a testing overage on a legal one that has an established, stated threshold. Further to that, there's plenty of argument in favour of the use of and establishment of thresholds for a whole range of therapeutic substances including but not limited to Bute, Ventolin (Sabutamol Sulphate, call it what you will) Clenbuterol and dare I say lest I incurr the wrath of those assembled...Lasix.

[broncobrad]

Hi Brad . I deleted the post because I am going through , what seems like , thousands of reports to access my source . I read many medical reports whether at work or on the computer at home and I will certainly let you know as soon as I find it

Don't sweat it Mark, in your own time is fine. BTW, I take VVV's point to a degree re why is Luke copping all the criticism while nought is being said about the meth and EPO positives, (even the salbutamol one which just blew me away), but its Lukes turn now. Most of us are adults on here (except Toohards young fella) and we all have an opinion, but because it doesn't fit into the way Triple is framing the discussion doesn't devalue how we think and feel about this latest headline personally. I am in 100% agreement with your sentiments on this subject (although 'raped' was a bit strong). You obviously feel very strongly about competing at a disadvantage from a first hand point of view. I think your statements tonight are balanced and under the circumstances well tempered considering. Surely we should all be in unison in congratulating HRNSW in fighting the good fight and supporting their intolerant stance against cheats, no matter who they are or what they are using. This corruption has been nothing less than white-anting of the industry from the inside out and the cheats were the only ones getting fat.

[Triple V]

Ahuh. There's a significant difference to be had between offering up an alternative viewpoint and the framing of a discussion Brad...not unlike the significant difference between a Boldenone positive and one for Meth or EPO as it happens. That the level of discussion and/or outrage does not to me appear to fit the respective crimes must, I guess, remain one of life's great mysteries, at least as far as I'm concerned anyway.

[broncobrad]

Hey Jaimie I can see your frustration with the current restrictions on certain therapeutic substances and/or exceedence of acceptable thresholds. I reckon you have some majorly good ideas with either the relaxation or legalisation of their use and acceptance by the racing authoritys in the future. Frusomide especially. But I think that debate is for another day. Don't you think there are an awful lot of small operators out there now, who a) feel that a bit of justice has been done and b) got a bit more confidence in the fact that if people who are cheating are being caught, their own horses chances of winning a race are increasing all the time.

And for what its worth, what sort of person would use something like methamphetamine on their horse? What did the RSPCA think about that? That person should not be allowed near a horse.

[mark diegutis]

And for what its worth, what sort of person would use something like methamphetamine on their horse? What did the RSPCA think about that? That person should not be allowed near a horse.[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly Brad . I can't understand why some of these cases are not handed over to the police . Any positive swab is also an act of cruelty .

[Starship Captain]

Agree with you both, it is disgusting.

[Thevoiceofreason]

And for what its worth, what sort of person would use something like methamphetamine on their horse? What did the RSPCA think about that? That person should not be allowed near a horse.

I agree wholeheartedly Brad . I can't understand why some of these cases are not handed over to the police . Any positive swab is also an act of cruelty .[/QUOTE]

Mark

With the greatest of respect not the cases discussed here but many positive swabs in both codes are the simple miscalculation of Therapeutic drugs.

That is about as far from an act of cruelty as you can get ..its only been in the last 2 years for example that Harness Trainers could treat their horses for the common condition of stomach ulcers without being deemed to have a positive swab. Those that used these drugs to treat a common problem got a positive. Was that cruel, of course not in fact it helped the horse.

As you well know some positive findings can also be traced back to horses grazing on weeds and grasses, should we call theses people cheats or ring the police ... The horses are still disqualified because the drug all be it naturally occurring is in their system but that is it ....There was a recent one in the Gallops and I have heard of many more as I am sure you are only too aware.

So lets not get over dramatic.

[Triple V]

That's right, the vast majority are indeed miscalculations of a host of therapeutics...hence my well worn mantra for addressing a whole host of thresholds for same. It is indeed about as far from an act of cruelty as you can get. In such instances I don't think anyone's suggesting anyone else being involved other than our own Regulatory people.
However...while the EPO thing is maybe(?) line ball...seriously VOR, a horse returning a Methamphetamine positive? Nah, can't wear that one.
For mine it's no different to a swab coming back positive for Cocaine or for Heroin or for MDMA or PCP or whatever and I guarentee if it were any of those somewhat more well known drugs people would long ago have hit the roof.
Mate, I'm no tree hugger free the battery hens type as you well know but geeze, if it's found to be solid then once it's dealt with at our level it should be passed to an organisation that's beyond Harness Racing...whomever can and will add some significant further straw to the then, if it has been proven, already broken Camel's back.
To get some idea of what physical and mental havoc Meth could potentially wreak upon a horse, take a trip down to St. Vincents Emergency in the early hours of a Saturday or Sunday morning and if he's around ask the good Dr. himself, Tim Stewart...if you can view the assembled contents of the padded rooms they've got down there for all the Meth smashed Tweakers who go completely postal for hours & hours on end.
For all its horrors, people take it of their own free will. Horses being given it is another matter entirely.
If that's not animal cruelty then I don't know what is. It's good policy to always be kind to children, old ladies and animals....excepting of course the Pigeons that infest the grandstand at Bankstown. That last bit should be good for another stinging rebuke from Dot. :rolleyes:

[Thevoiceofreason]

I have no knowledge of the level of Meth but to put some context to hysteria being driven here.

Racing Labs around the world do not give Quantitative analysis in plain words they do not say how much is in each sample ... they provide Qualitative analysis, that is it is in the horse, they can however in some drugs say if its a large or small amount.

Gai Waterhouse had a small amount of cocaine detected in a swab a few years back yes it was in the horse so she was still penalised and the horse disqualified.

The point I am making is the level could be so small as to be contamination from human use and not through administration this was the defence throughout the Waterhouse case because the level was at the lower end. There would have been no point in involving the police in this case and whilst I have no knowledge of the current Harness case it may be similar or of course, it the brief may have been handed to the police for further investigation, we simply do not know and to be honest we should not because that might compromise any police investigation if there is one.

[Toohard]

Racing Labs around the world do not give Quantitative analysis in plain words they do not say how much is in each sample ... they provide Qualitative analysis, that is it is in the horse, they can however in some drugs say if its a large or small amount.



Gday Bill

Just trying to understand the "Never returned a positive to it before" stuff.

For this substance the threshold is 15mg per litre. So the lab results say the horse is either over that or under it but not by how much? If under not a positive.

So the other times swabbed could have been 14mg and nothing is done? And in this case could have been 16mg and so a positive?

Cheers

[Triple V]

I have no knowledge of the level of Meth but to put some context to hysteria being driven here.

Racing Labs around the world do not give Quantitative analysis in plain words they do not say how much is in each sample ... they provide Qualitative analysis, that is it is in the horse, they can however in some drugs say if its a large or small amount.

Gai Waterhouse had a small amount of cocaine detected in a swab a few years back yes it was in the horse so she was still penalised and the horse disqualified.

The point I am making is the level could be so small as to be contamination from human use and not through administration this was the defence throughout the Waterhouse case because the level was at the lower end. There would have been no point in involving the police in this case and whilst I have no knowledge of the current Harness case it may be similar or of course, it the brief may have been handed to the police for further investigation, we simply do not know and to be honest we should not because that might compromise any police investigation if there is one.

[VVV] VOR writes [Racing Labs around the world do not give Quantitative analysis in plain words they do not say how much is in each sample ... they provide Qualitative analysis, that is it is in the horse, they can however in some drugs say if its a large or small amount.]
None at all? No specific figures? Nothing? Geeze.
So how do they tell if something exceeds a specific threshold then??????
That lack of specificity in itself is absolutely ridiculous VOR, especially when you think about about it from a Trainer's viewpoint....because the sensitivity of some tests, especially so the drugs of abuse end of the spectrum, sees to it that many substances can & will be detected despite them being present in such minute amounts that there is no way they can possibly be pharmacologically active BUT nevertheless a Trainer can still go for a row?
Although it is not a drug of abuse, Bute is a classic example as it pertains for horse racing. It stops working after 12hrs but it can be detected and trainers can easily go for a row over its presence some 96hrs+ post administration. That's absolutely absurd whatever way any reasonable person may care to look at it. Madness.
Why are we as a Racing Code, we as an Industry, not banging the table & demanding Quantitative Testing?
It is INSANE that Trainers can fall foul of this basic yep, it's there but we have no idea if it is there in such an amount as to be active at the point of testing or not.
This subject actually brings immediately to mind another ridiculous restriction...that of not being able to race a horse for so many days post a Penicillen injection.
That has everything to do with the minute amount of the local anesthetic, Procaine, which is included in the injection in order to take the edge off having a painful intra-muscular jab....being able to produce an Opiate positive days and days later, one that under the present rules could Out a Trainer for a considerable period.

The apparent complete lack of Quantitative Testing is madness, absolute madness. Worse still, it is morally & ethically wrong.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Paul

Yes you have got it exactly right with threshold levels that is how it works under the threshold no positive swab over and it is declared.

[mark diegutis]

I agree wholeheartedly Brad . I can't understand why some of these cases are not handed over to the police . Any positive swab is also an act of cruelty .

Mark

With the greatest of respect not the cases discussed here but many positive swabs in both codes are the simple miscalculation of Therapeutic drugs.

That is about as far from an act of cruelty as you can get ..its only been in the last 2 years for example that Harness Trainers could treat their horses for the common condition of stomach ulcers without being deemed to have a positive swab. Those that used these drugs to treat a common problem got a positive. Was that cruel, of course not in fact it helped the horse.

As you well know some positive findings can also be traced back to horses grazing on weeds and grasses, should we call theses people cheats or ring the police ... The horses are still disqualified because the drug all be it naturally occurring is in their system but that is it ....There was a recent one in the Gallops and I have heard of many more as I am sure you are only too aware.

So lets not get over dramatic.[/QUOTE]



Your right Bill . I had those Meth and EPO swabs in my head and should have put much more thought into it . You make a good rudder for this forum . Thanks

[Thevoiceofreason]

Jamie

your comments have been made by many people over many years but that is the way of the world, do not think this is just Australia or just Harness Racing, I am not a chemist and do not pretend to be I am just trying to provide some information that I am aware of so that the system of swab findings is understood.

Only one slight correction to you last example Procaine can be found for weeks and there are a couple of instances where it is more like months.

Boldenone given at the correct dosage can hang around for up to six months there was a case many years back where a galloper positive to Boldenone was spelled because his level kept fluctuating up and down it was six months before this settled and the Owner returned the horse to work. At one stage he became so frustrated he actually thought about selling the horse but then realised who was going to buy it anyway because until the level dropped below the threshold it was going nowhere near a race track

[Toohard]

Paul

Yes you have got it exactly right with threshold levels that is how it works under the threshold no positive swab over and it is declared.


Thanks Bill
Cheers

[Mighty Atom]

Back in the 60's,70's & 80"s anabolic steroids were routinely used ( Durateston, Sustanon 250 ( human equivalent to durateston ), Boldenone, Boldec, Spectriol, Filybol, Durabolin, Deca-durabolin, Testaviron and others and they certainly made a huge improvement to horses. You could race these horses twice in one night - and usually raced better the second start. Initially, steroids were definitely responsible for the huge race performance improvements. I lived next door to a trainer that couldn't train a winner in 15 years, he then got hold of a grey mare that had won a race in the city, put her on a course of Sustanon 250 alternating every three weeks with Deca Durabolin and she never stopped winning. He never worried about positioning in the field he just sat in the breeze, all the horses in his stable became prolific winners from there on. Problem is once it became a level playing field it was time to move on to the hardcore drugs which I could mention but I won't.

[dizzy]

No stinging rebuke here Jamie but I would suggest that you may have missed a good night last friday with your block eyes firmly on. I think here you as you claimed on another thread are doing your own bit of Tesio on this one. The topic of this thread is Luke McCarthy enquiry adjourned and as such most posts bar yours focus on recent events involving Mr McCarthy, only you seem intend on blowing some smoke from another fire on here. It is a fact of life that the higher you rise the further you fall, therefore given Mr McCarthy's level of success, and indeed the comments of those who posted here frequently of his superior attributes as a trainer and driver (and I've no doubt more than some of those qualities are completely honourable and stand him in good stead) have contributed to what you see as the disproportionate level of outrage expressed here. I'm sure if you Jamie were to have cause to utter the now famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" line I doubt anyone bar your wife and family would be interested, yet from Bill Clinton"s mouth they enthralled a nation, indeed a good proportion of the world.

As to EPO and Meth positives, they are abhorent and the full circumstances of each will be revealed at the conclusion of the relevant enquiries which will no doubt be worth a thread entirely of their own then

[Triple V]

No stinging rebuke here Jamie but I would suggest that you may have missed a good night last friday with your block eyes firmly on. I think here you as you claimed on another thread are doing your own bit of Tesio on this one. The topic of this thread is Luke McCarthy enquiry adjourned and as such most posts bar yours focus on recent events involving Mr McCarthy, only you seem intend on blowing some smoke from another fire on here. It is a fact of life that the higher you rise the further you fall, therefore given Mr McCarthy's level of success, and indeed the comments of those who posted here frequently of his superior attributes as a trainer and driver (and I've no doubt more than some of those qualities are completely honourable and stand him in good stead) have contributed to what you see as the disproportionate level of outrage expressed here. I'm sure if you Jamie were to have cause to utter the now famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" line I doubt anyone bar your wife and family would be interested, yet from Bill Clinton"s mouth they enthralled a nation, indeed a good proportion of the world.

As to EPO and Meth positives, they are abhorent and the full circumstances of each will be revealed at the conclusion of the relevant enquiries which will no doubt be worth a thread entirely of their own then

[VVV] Many thanks Dot. If only I could have been on as good a thing at the track... ;)

[mark diegutis]

To Mark....last night I saw a comment that I am sure was made by you, in regard to boldenone being either undetectable or out of the system after 17 days (or so) and I thought thats pretty interesting but I cannot find it today. That bloody State Of Origin match took priority over last nights discussion. Either I am dreaming or the comment was zapped because it wasn't backed up with a source. Not even sure if it was your comment, but if it was, could you repeat your statement (with a source) because I have not read anywhere of this short term property before.

Cheers Brad

Hi Brad . Here is one of the articles that I have come accross that was taken to test the actual time taken for this steroid to become non detectable . I will find the original that explains how these drugs can be manipulated with dosage , wieght , work etc to bring the detection time down









LOGIN





Determination of boldenone sulfoconjugate and related steroid sulfates in equine urine


Biological Mass Spectrometer




Author Information



Equine Drug Testing and Toxicology. New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, 925 Warren Drive, Ithaca, New York 14850, USA












Abstract

Sulfoconjugated anabolic steroids were separated by micro-bore high-performance liquid chromatography. The eluent was introduced into the atmospheric pressure ion source of the triple-quadrupole mass spectrometer via an ion spray liquid chromatograph/mass spectrometer interface operated in the negative ion mode. The limit of detection was 10 pg on-column by selected ion monitoring of the molecular ion and the response increased linearly over a concentration range of 2.4 orders of magnitude. Following work-up by a liquid-solid extraction procedure of equine urine samples, full-scan daughter ion spectra of boldenone sulfate could be obtained up to 17 days after a therapeutic dose of boldenone undecylenate to a horse.

[aussiebreno]

Didn't think this was worthy of a thread and have decided this is probably the most relevant thread to post this in. M Rue's drive on Buckeye Nation on 14/4/2012 at Menangle was questioned by stewards and an inquiry was to be held. I have valiantly searched stewards reports since then but haven't come across something (my eyesight could have something to do with this).
http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=ME140412
Anyone heard anything?

[dizzy]

I'm not an expert but I believe hormones and steroids have always had varying degrees of active/detectable times depending on the precise chemical combinations involved, with many previously long acting preparations now available in shorter acting/detectable preparations and vice versa
.
Perhaps Mark can clarify but I believe the study referred to indicates a method by which a positive swab for boldenone, administered as boldenone undecylenate, can be obtained for a longer period of time after administration, then other testing methods in use. Perhaps this is the testing method used in Hong Kong and not in Australia thus explaining the pre and post Newcastle negative swabs?

Some years ago Joe Janiack took Takeover Target from Japan to Hong Kong to race. As was Joe's regular practice at the time, and common to many trainers in Australia at the time, the horse was given a hormone preparation to assist his recovery from the stress of travel and acclimatising to a new environment. In Australia at the time I think the withdrawal time for this preparation was in the order of 6 days. Takeover Target was subject to routine non raceday drug testing as is common in Hong Kong and returned a positive swab. Takeover Target was then repeatedly tested over a period of some weeks I believe and including pretty much raceday morning to ensure the substance had cleared his system to enable him to take his place in the field. It hadn't and he was scratched from a group one event.

Likewise the equestrian events from the Bejing Olympics because of quarantine restrictions were held in Hong Kong. A number of riders had horses return positive swabs after using "pre event protocols" the same as they had used "at home" for many years without returning positive swabs.

The lab in Hong Kong clearly stands head and shoulders above the rest. Entrapment maybe? But the rules are clear horses have to be free of prohibbited substances raceday. There are no requirements to only ever test to the same standard as the home jurisdiction routinely does.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Dot

In relation to the Takeover Target Drug it was as you said in widespread use at the time it was "alpha-hydroxyprogesterone hexonate".

Commonly known as SA the test for this drug was actually pioneered in Australia by the ARFL Sydney and it was the Australian Lab that told other labs around the world how to test for the drug.

Hong Kong were the first to begin testing for it on a regular basis in late 2006 at that time no other Jurisdictions tested for the drug.

In Australia the GHRRA ( VVV please do not choke your mate Cogo leading the way again) were the first to declare they would commence testing for the drug around May 2007 they gave a 4 week later extended to 8 week notice as there were many concerns about the half life of the drug as initial tests had indicated it would clear the system at between 12 and 14 days and a positive swab would not be declared after that period of time, however a second positive in HK in March 2007 had shown it could be found up to 56 days after administration and this to some degree put the cat among the pigeons .

Takeover Target for the record was positive in December 2006 part of the reason Joe continued to ask for further testing right up to race day was because of the view that it would clear the system within 14 days, my memory is Joe admitted administration at about 21 days before the race, so given the then advertised detection limits he was confident it would clear by race morning... history shows it did not.

At some time in 2007 Australian Authorities announced they would be testing for HPC across the board and its subsequent use has pretty much died out because of its ease of detect-ability and its extended half life within the horse.

[mark diegutis]

I'm not an expert but I believe hormones and steroids have always had varying degrees of active/detectable times depending on the precise chemical combinations involved, with many previously long acting preparations now available in shorter acting/detectable preparations and vice versa
.
Perhaps Mark can clarify but I believe the study referred to indicates a method by which a positive swab for boldenone, administered as boldenone undecylenate, can be obtained for a longer period of time after administration, then other testing methods in use. Perhaps this is the testing method used in Hong Kong and not in Australia thus explaining the pre and post Newcastle negative swabs?

Some years ago Joe Janiack took Takeover Target from Japan to Hong Kong to race. As was Joe's regular practice at the time, and common to many trainers in Australia at the time, the horse was given a hormone preparation to assist his recovery from the stress of travel and acclimatising to a new environment. In Australia at the time I think the withdrawal time for this preparation was in the order of 6 days. Takeover Target was subject to routine non raceday drug testing as is common in Hong Kong and returned a positive swab. Takeover Target was then repeatedly tested over a period of some weeks I believe and including pretty much raceday morning to ensure the substance had cleared his system to enable him to take his place in the field. It hadn't and he was scratched from a group one event.

Likewise the equestrian events from the Bejing Olympics because of quarantine restrictions were held in Hong Kong. A number of riders had horses return positive swabs after using "pre event protocols" the same as they had used "at home" for many years without returning positive swabs.

The lab in Hong Kong clearly stands head and shoulders above the rest. Entrapment maybe? But the rules are clear horses have to be free of prohibited substances race day. There are no requirements to only ever test to the same standard as the home jurisdiction routinely does.

Hi Dot . I'm certainly no expert , but I work with a number of leading doctors and professors who work on developing medical breakthroughs . They have been extremely informative . These long acting steroids can be manipulated by mixing them with other steroids , working horses harder , using diuretics , balancing them for your horses weight etc etc to shorten their detectable life . Recently a greyhound went positive for boldenone in QLD . It was given to another trainer who had its blood and urine tested . It only took just over 3 weeks for this particular dog to show a negative swab . If Australian racing labs were anywhere near as accurate as the labs in Hong Kong then we wouldn't be sending them there . The Hong Kong Jockey Club pride themselves on being world leaders in the fight against drug use in racing . It was a great move by HRNSW to start using them . Unfortunately these sorts of drugs are easily sought and trainers can have their bloods tested so they know they won't go for a positive in Australia . Once they have it worked out they can use it time and time again and will continue to . We need horses to be swabbed out of racing , at trials , after being nominated . Until these guys are completely unsure they will never stop . Cheers Mark

[Triple V]

Be that as it may, you probably should let sleeping dogs lie VOR as you know full well that subject stokes my boiler. :mad:
You & I & the gatepost know that the GHRRA Board and Management was the NSW based model turned ultimate shambles upon which was based the QLD State Labor similarly factionista style jobs for the boys debacle that was RQLD.
Each group had the obligatory line-up of hangers on, party apparatchik, union oligarchy & assorted stalwarts & their respective follies...although we'll likely never know the true extent of it...I suspect cost their respective State Industries quite dearly.
That back in 2007 they may have managed to extinguish a smouldering letterbox whilst all around Rome continued to burn unchecked, well, it's not much of a claim to fame for mine. Call me a cynic if you must. :p
Interestingly OLGR have renamed themselves and become ILGA, thus giving this and subsequent State Governments control over but plausible deniability for everything..should they happen to do something that doesn't quite work out. Got to love Politicians. Arse covering is to them like breathing.

[dizzy]

Yes Bill that is the drug, I thought I recalled the common name as SA, I did check the long name before posting but thought "too hard" to make sure that I spelled that right! Didn't know the test was developed here only that Joe had a B sample tested here as he didn't believe the Hong Kong results. It tested positive and shortly after the GHRRA did notify trainers they would be now testing for SA. There was some speculation around at the time, though I think it remained unproven, that Joe had injected the drug into a ligament which had increased the clearance time. I think I recall that the testing for solu cortef changed at or around the same time.

[dizzy]

Agree Mark, a new approach to drug regulation/testing needs to evolve, with trainers having access to experts and sophisticated facilities to determine individual administration protocals to ensure post race samples are clear then post race testing of winners is not the deterent it once was. Using the Hong Kong lab raised the bar but more will be needed to ensure a level playing field

[broncobrad]

This is just an observation only. Last night was the first time in May that a McCarthy horse didn't salute either on a Friday/Saturday meeting in Sydney. Got close a couple of times though.

[Bandito]

This is just an observation only. Last night was the first time in May that a McCarthy horse didn't salute either on a Friday/Saturday meeting in Sydney. Got close a couple of times though.
But they didn't take long to rectify the slump(?)

[barney]

Notice Luke hasnt any in his name this week .Anyone no why as last i heard he had appealed.

[p plater]

I know Luke is on a stay but can anyone enlighten me why, when the stewards opposed the stay, according to the NSW website the next date set down is 17th September 2012.
Seems a long time and will be in the next season. There must be a reason for such a long stay.

[aussiebreno]

I know Luke is on a stay but can anyone enlighten me why, when the stewards opposed the stay, according to the NSW website the next date set down is 17th September 2012.
Seems a long time and will be in the next season. There must be a reason for such a long stay.
If its a conspiracy theory we are looking for..when is the NSW awards night? DQed trainer, leading trainer. Gahhhh....

[p plater]

If its a conspiracy theory we are looking for..when is the NSW awards night? DQed trainer, leading trainer. Gahhhh....

I thought there may have been some evidence based reason but then again the stewards opposed it. Barry Lew didn't get a stay.

[Tangles]

Oh no, they would'nt, would they?? If they do they are truly not being serious.

[Tangles]

Oh no, they would'nt, would they?? If they do, then they are truly not being serious on this issue.

[Greg Hando]

I think he got a stay because he was a professional trainer and it would affects clent's,staff etc. Barry Lew didn't get a stay because he is only a hobby trainer and would only affect him even though the power's that be think
he is a professional trainer so i hear on the grape vine.

[barney]

Doesnt seem to have any racing in his name just driving

[broncobrad]

Doesnt seem to have any racing in his name just driving

Maybe someone could enlighten us mushrooms. From what I can see Luke does appear to be driving only, and JP Mc is listed as trainer again. Have we missed something or is he still training under a stay?

[aussiebreno]

Ok 3 months on....has there been anything done about the inquiry into Mat Rue's drive on Buckeye Nation 14th April. Alcyone do you know anything?

[Greg Hando]

Still training under a stay .

[barney]

17 Sept has come and gone any news or has it been adjourned again

[barney]

17 Sept has come and gone any news or has it been adjourned again
Answering my own question hearing 2/10

[barney]

Now adjourned 13/11 on request of Nsw harness board

[broncobrad]

As Barney said, this time put back at the request of HRNSW stewards due to a delay in obtaining expert advice. From the outside looking in its hard to make comment when we don't know the facts, but really, after all this time, what on earth warrants the stewards prolonging this saga any longer. We have endured numerous adjournments at the connections request, but its starting to look like a joke. Those who have been Lukes loudest critics must be sitting back saying WTF is going on here. From where I am sitting the inevitable is just being prolonged, lets get the show on the road. Six months on the sidelines and back to business.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Brad

It took 18 months for Racing NSW stewards to even charge Gai Waterhouse over her Boldenone positive in 2007, let alone the appeal.

HRNSW stewards are well inside this time frame, this is now the appeal stage and McCarthy is entitled to mount a strong defense, if as part of that defense HRNSW needs to produce new expert evidence to refute expert opinion produced by the McCarthy team at appeal so be it.

You have to remember its not 100 years ago that many Gallops Trainers in Queensland were penalised for positive Caffeine swabs which were all later found to be an error in the testing process hard to say here is your six months back.

I have always been just a little worried that we had 2 Boldernone positives in the one night from the one track it is a pretty amazing coincidence.

[broncobrad]

G'day Bill

If I was Luke and thought I was a chance of beating this charge, I would use every available resource, the best possible defence team, scientific evidence, independant witnesses, every delaying ploy possible, every available $ I had and would pour it into as robust an appeal as possible. If I was Luke, I too would defend the largest and most successful training establishment in Australia, that he has built up in recent years with quality horses and good paying clients.

But Bill, like you said there were two Boldenone positives that night at Newcastle, the other of course belonging to Barry, for which after appealling the case was found to have been proven and the disqualification stood. Barry has now served his time on the sidelines. The parallels of both cases draw me to the inescapably obvious conclusion that indeed Luke would need to be just as good an escapologist as Harry Houdine himself. No doubt the introduction of new evidence is the only way that Luke can hope to beat the charge. All I can see is a plethora of "what ifs", "differing expert opinions", hypotheses and hyperbole, mixed in with a dab of supposition and a whole bunch of red herrings thrown into the mix. Result...still gets six months holiday, Dad keeps the business ticking over and all is not lost. Oh! Hang on ...thats already the case. As has been pointed out in the past, the stewards only have to prove that Boldenone was present and exceeded the acceptable threshold (and lets not start another one of those threshold diatribes)..If he beats this charge Bill or indeed gets it downgraded I will buy you a $5 lottery ticket.

[Thevoiceofreason]

G'day Bill

If I was Luke and thought I was a chance of beating this charge, I would use every available resource, the best possible defence team, scientific evidence, independant witnesses, every delaying ploy possible, every available $ I had and would pour it into as robust an appeal as possible. If I was Luke, I too would defend the largest and most successful training establishment in Australia, that he has built up in recent years with quality horses and good paying clients.

But Bill, like you said there were two Boldenone positives that night at Newcastle, the other of course belonging to Barry, for which after appealling the case was found to have been proven and the disqualification stood. Barry has now served his time on the sidelines. The parallels of both cases draw me to the inescapably obvious conclusion that indeed Luke would need to be just as good an escapologist as Harry Houdine himself. No doubt the introduction of new evidence is the only way that Luke can hope to beat the charge. All I can see is a plethora of "what ifs", "differing expert opinions", hypotheses and hyperbole, mixed in with a dab of supposition and a whole bunch of red herrings thrown into the mix. Result...still gets six months holiday, Dad keeps the business ticking over and all is not lost. Oh! Hang on ...thats already the case. As has been pointed out in the past, the stewards only have to prove that Boldenone was present and exceeded the acceptable threshold (and lets not start another one of those threshold diatribes)..If he beats this charge Bill or indeed gets it downgraded I will buy you a $5 lottery ticket.

$5 to nothing is about the same odds I think Luke is of beating the charge as well, you can however rest assured if he does I will be waiting for the ticket.

I have to say I have no knowledge on this case however I suspect from chatting with one of Australia's most prominent veterinary surgeons that the defense will be about an issue in the testing procedures used to declare the positive.

You have to remember Jeff Small convinced an appeal judge a few years back the blood was not part of the cardio vascular system and as such was not guilty breach of the prohibited substance rules.

[p plater]

$5 to nothing is about the same odds I think Luke is of beating the charge as well, you can however rest assured if he does I will be waiting for the ticket.

I have to say I have no knowledge on this case however I suspect from chatting with one of Australia's most prominent veterinary surgeons that the defense will be about an issue in the testing procedures used to declare the positive.

You have to remember Jeff Small convinced an appeal judge a few years back the blood was not part of the cardio vascular system and as such was not guilty breach of the prohibited substance rules.

Bill, thats why the rules were changed so that a trainer is guilty if a horse presents with anything above the allowed limits.....regardless of the reason....you could walk in and say "yeah I don't like him and I put XXXX in the horses feed".....trainer still guilty

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill, thats why the rules were changed so that a trainer is guilty if a horse presents with anything above the allowed limits.....regardless of the reason....you could walk in and say "yeah I don't like him and I put XXXX in the horses feed".....trainer still guilty

P Plater

If they can prove there is a problem with the testing procedure and I am not saying that there is, or that they can but if they can there is no breach because it makes the positive finding null and void..... which is what happened in Queensland with the caffeine positives about 20 years ago.

It is not then about how it got there because it is deemed to not be there.

[broncobrad]

$5 to nothing is about the same odds I think Luke is of beating the charge as well, you can however rest assured if he does I will be waiting for the ticket.

I have to say I have no knowledge on this case however I suspect from chatting with one of Australia's most prominent veterinary surgeons that the defense will be about an issue in the testing procedures used to declare the positive.

You have to remember Jeff Small convinced an appeal judge a few years back the blood was not part of the cardio vascular system and as such was not guilty breach of the prohibited substance rules.

G'day Bill,

The biggest question right now is when will the appeal finally take place...Days of our Lives didn't run this long. Rest assured Bill, the lottery ticket will be ready and waiting for you, but don't be surprised if you get a private message from me detailing mailing instructions for you to send me the ticket because even Rumpole of the Bailey couldn't get Luke out of this one.