The Flat Earth Society strikes again!

[Triple V]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97216

It's hard for me to determine where the obligatory Bankstown Pigeon crap ends and the Club's official statement begins.
Fair dinkum. A brand new 1000m facility at Eastern Creek...or Bankstown???????????????
Has there ever been a bigger No Brainer? Absolutely un-%&$#ing-believable. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[mango]

Whether Bankstown agreed or not i don't think the move will happen as Penrith refused the move last year and i don't think they'll change there mind's. I think there is a place for a 800m in Sydney and that is Penrith. By the way of the 3 tracks mentioned who actually own's the track's the Harness club's or other parties.

[Triple V]

Whether Bankstown agreed or not i don't think the move will happen as Penrith refused the move last year and i don't think they'll change there mind's. I think there is a place for a 800m in Sydney and that is Penrith. By the way of the 3 tracks mentioned who actually own's the track's the Harness club's or other parties.

G'day Dallas,
Bankstown don't own the land, neither does Fairfield (race dates wise they're all but defunct anyway so I can't see the relevance of them even being mentioned in that press release) and whilst Penrith certainly owns theirs, it is a parcel of land worth somewhere around $20-22 million & surely some of that $ being free'd up ala the sale of HP move to Menangle makes a whole lot more sense?
From what I've been able to determine, HRNSW is working with the NSW State Government seeking out available parcels of land at Eastern Creek where brand new racing/training/stabling facilities can be built including a state of the art 1000m etc....but no, as per usual, to the Flat Earth supporters...that's not acceptable.
If I could have gotten on as good a thing at the track that would happen I'd have had the house on it.
Ultimately I fully expect that what's going to happen here is something akin to Security staff asking an intoxicated patron to leave a Pub or a Nightclub. They'll each have a choice of doing it the easy way or if needs must, they can do it the hard way.
The easy way is of course to be part of the process and along with the HRNSW make the best of the proposal & then make the very best of a brand new everything, racing three times a week or more at Eastern Creek...in doing so significantly reducing the cost structure and delivering a better outcome for Industry participants by way of those $ being re-directed to prizemoney etc.
The hard way is to fight it, spend a heap of time & $ and effort in doing so, end up getting their race dates reduced, revoked etc etc........and ultimately seeing the same outcome as they'd have had if they had initially gone along with things...only somewhat delayed by all the bullshit. It will be as simple as that.
Like many others, I've seen the sabre rattling, shield beating, forelock tugging & gnashing of teeth before Dallas.
It happened when Richmond got closed down, it happened again when Fairfield got axed, same sort of thing went for Lithgow as I recall. It's like Ground Hog Day. Rise and shine Campers!
The same old naysayers were once again out in force prior to the sale of HP. "If this happens then I'll sell up and leave the Industry" etc etc etc. As if anyone was going to beg any single one of them to stay?
At Administrative, Club and Participant level the Industry has time and again suffered from the same tired old bullshit from the same blinkered bozos that are individually and collectively stuck in some sort of a 1950's time-warped version of Australia. Well guess what fellas? The world has moved on. Time to get your heads 60+ years down the line and get with the program or go to buggery. Easy as that.

Btw...if you want to get a pretty clear idea where the head of the naysayers and flat earth society members are at right now...have a read of this nothing short disgraceful press release. http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97262
IMO Andrew Ho should be ashamed of himself for authoring such a peice but clearly he is not, for if he was he would not write such things. In a few words...emotive, less than objective, verging on slanderous as far as Sam's concerned. Disgraceful.

[mango]

Hey Triple

If Penrith own there land and have a successfully run club and get a decent crowd there why would they want to sell and put there money into Eastern Creek if the other 2 clubs have nothing to bring with them. I don't know much about Eastern Creek but would one think they would attract a crowd there or not ? I thought there was talk of Penrith extending there track and fixing up some facilities and i also recall Paul Fitzpatrick saying that he think's there is a place for a smaller track in Sydney and that was Penrith. I'm not saying they should move or shouldn't but just trying to get some more insight.

[Triple V]

G'day Dallas,
That's essentially the unspoken here. By virtue of significant financial wherewithall post any sale of the current site & the distinct lack of same as far as Bankstown (ongoing solvency issues) & Fairfield are concerned, Penrith would BE the proposed new Club...lock, stock and barrel. They (Penrith) would have new public & member facilities, they'd have a new track, new stabling & training facilities, the whole box & dice.
The other two would be there largely in name only & in order to satisfy a few sentimentalists...ala what they do down in VIC from time to time with so & so @ Melton or what happens here in NSW with Bulli @ Menangle.
Bankstown's in a dreadful state of dis-repair these days & the Club has been bailed out on at least two occasions I know of. IMO it is to the future of NSW Harness Racing what the Lung Fish is to the future of Evolution. It is a relic of a by-gone age that when encountered, is just as disturbing to look at...either up close or when viewed from a distance.

[Danno]

Jamie, Dallas,
whilst in our area the 960 metre track we've had at Newcastle for over twenty years has been hailed by some as the saviour of our game here ( and I'm not saying it hasn't played a part) I believe the people administering the club here have been more vital to it's success than the racing circuit itself. Sure it's a great track, no doubt , but the folks who have held the reins here have ensured the club's ongoing success. It is also true that neighboring clubs like Cessnock and Maitland have suffered at Newcastle's success, but that is another debate altogether.

One of the reasons for this ongoing success story is the co-operation between individuals and clubs for the greater good.

I see similar parallels at Penrith, a successful club of people more interested in the greater good than their owns interests. And they have been very successful for a very long time! Despite having some influential members who, according to some are "stuck in the past". Some people who are "stuck in the past" have actually seen first hand, the pitfalls that others are promoting many years previously and, like any sane person are wary of making the same mistake again.

I dont think you need a 1,000+ metre to have a successful operation...think tracks like Gloucester Park and Yonkers..been there forever and still going strong, but strong clubs that are administrated by talented people, the point I'm trying to make guys is that it's not the track but the club that will decide success or otherwise.

Cheers,
Dan

[Triple V]

G'day Dan,
Placing the rights & wrongs of various aspects in this debate aside for a moment, do you think it does anyone in the Industry any good at all for somewhere in the vicinity of 20-22 milion dollars to be tied up in land value?

[mango]

Hi Triple

Isn't that up to the Penrith Club to decide as they are a part of the industry and by the sound of it they have a great club, it would be great to get another track somewhere but i don't agree with another one in Sydney. I think people should take into consideration that Harness racing does exist outside of the city Limit's and try and do something in the country. Bathurst would be my choice and not Eastern Creek, Bathurst race wk in wk out and alway's attract horses from alot of different area's and have good fields and i just hope the next track is based on the same size as Melton and not Menangle. They have Bulli meeting's at Menangle why can't they have Fairfield and Bankstown there aswell.

[2minuteman]

Jamie, Dallas,
whilst in our area the 960 metre track we've had at Newcastle for over twenty years has been hailed by some as the saviour of our game here ( and I'm not saying it hasn't played a part) I believe the people administering the club here have been more vital to it's success than the racing circuit itself. Sure it's a great track, no doubt , but the folks who have held the reins here have ensured the club's ongoing success. It is also true that neighboring clubs like Cessnock and Maitland have suffered at Newcastle's success, but that is another debate altogether.


Cheers,
Dan
Having had commercial dealings with the Newcastle club (some time back but same people) I fully endorse the above .

[Triple V]

Hi Triple

Isn't that up to the Penrith Club to decide as they are a part of the industry and by the sound of it they have a great club, it would be great to get another track somewhere but i don't agree with another one in Sydney. I think people should take into consideration that Harness racing does exist outside of the city Limit's and try and do something in the country. Bathurst would be my choice and not Eastern Creek, Bathurst race wk in wk out and alway's attract horses from alot of different area's and have good fields and i just hope the next track is based on the same size as Melton and not Menangle. They have Bulli meeting's at Menangle why can't they have Fairfield and Bankstown there aswell.

[VVV] G'day Dallas. Yes and no. Yes insofar as being an integral part of/a/the major influence on the process but no insofar as deciding to act road block wise to the march of progress. What we're talking about here is a long, long, long overdue rationalisation of Clubs/Tracks within the greater Metro area of Sydney. I'm sure you'd agree that there's absolutely no justification whatsoever for keeping going all of the tracks that we currently have and there has not been so for some time and by that I'm talking at least a decade. Ultimately there'll only be, ultimately there only needs to be....2 tracks in Sydney/surrounds. Obviously one of them will be Menangle plus there'll be 1 other, wherever/whoever it may end up being.
As for the outside of Sydney Metro/Country areas I could not agree more with with you. That is where $$$ should be aimed, that is where it will be aimed, because the old addage that when Country racing is strong, the Industry is strong holds just as true now as ever and many of the current and previous Board know this full well.
To that end if you take a look at the direction in which HRNSW wish to head in the coming years I understand that there will be major regional training & racing facilities located in Goulburn, Bathurst, Wagga and Newcastle...and I have a gut feeling I may have left one or two more out?
For example, things are already on the move in the Central West as the proposal for the move/development of a new track at Bathurst (which I understand is to be located on the old Sale Yards site) went before Council not long after the most recent Gold Crown/Tiara carnival was completed. HRNSW has also purchased a large slice of land next to the Goulburn track where permanent training/stabling facilities will be built ala those that will built at Menangle, same no doubt at Bathurst, Wagga, Newcastle ect. To those ends, I expect such was the recent HRNSW road show.

[Danno]

G'day Dan,
Placing the rights & wrongs of various aspects in this debate aside for a moment, do you think it does anyone in the Industry any good at all for somewhere in the vicinity of 20-22 milion dollars to be tied up in land value?

G'day Jamie,

I woudn't be surprised if someone said to Len Smith back in the sixties " geez, you've got a lot of money tied up in land value here Len!"
Point being that the issue was resolved by that club in the time the members of that club chose! Does that sound unfair or unjust?? Not to me.

The Penrith club, being a successfull operation should be allowed to determine it's own passage, after all it has done an excellent job so far has it not? One day someone might read that the club has sold it's land for 400 billion dollars and that the money will be used to "save harness racing"..... sound familiar?

My personal opinion is let the club do as it's members wish, I don't believe that the direction of harness racing in NSW or anywhere else should come from one source alone, history has shown that the smaller the team of decision makers the greater the risk of failure. ( probably due to short sighted personal agendas)

And the bottom line is, why would you uproot, redesign and remodel an operation that is successful when there are others that are not?

So no Jamie, I don't think it's all about selling everyones farm because it recently worked for NSWHRC.

Cheers,
Dan

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

So a prosperous, well run, successful club (Penrith), is forced out of an area worth 20-22 million (which it owns). And is moved to another area, to be just a tennant to someone else. Where is the incentive for a club to run a profitable organisation? Without having intimate knowledge of NSWHR, am I near the mark? Is NSW a communist state now?

[dizzy]

I think you'll find the Penrith site is actually owned by the Penrith Agricultural, Horticultural and Industrial Society anyway. They do do other things out there as well as harness racing and I believe harness "fans" are a minority on their board

[Triple V]

Interesting. That's contrary to what I was told. Things that make you go Hmmmm.
Thanks Dot.

[Tangles]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97216

It's hard for me to determine where the obligatory Bankstown Pigeon crap ends and the Club's official statement begins.
Fair dinkum. A brand new 1000m facility at Eastern Creek...or Bankstown???????????????
Has there ever been a bigger No Brainer? Absolutely un-%&$#ing-believable. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If we all think back to what attracted us to the sport of harness racing, we can all recount that one night a night of excitement the close proximity to the horses, seeing your equine idol for the first time, or the God like statue of a harness racing legend. Up the road in the car with Mum and your other siblings city or country.Lights in the distance like moths we circle. The crowd, bookmakers the smell of donuts and hotdogs. Race book in hand dollar each way on your favoured horse, the feeling of something forbidden. Horses parade bugle annouces their near arrival. Shiny muscular creatures sleek with sweat, drivers atop chariots, with silks glittering. The call of the race ectasy or sorrow a night of emotions. Blankets to keep us warm on the way home.

Kids in car, up the road with Grandma, Dads now gone, no longer a local track, journeyed to a waste land(redeveloped1400m good for the game), very few faces, no crowd (watch it all at home), totalisator window, where are the bookies(gave up on the red hots dont you know the games crooked), Shiny muscular creatures glistening with sweat dissected by galvanised safety wire (OHS you know). Sectional times, electronic board no one but a few to see this paradise of desolate corporate isolation.

[Triple V]

Sterilising? Or progress? Hey, being a Victorian I'd be more concerned with your own backyard there Tangles. Where HRV was going to get the $ to plug the sizeable hole that no longer getting a divvy up from the Pokies cashflow is going to leave? Ouch. Now way you guys get a roof on the Melton Grandstand now.

[Tangles]

Agree, all is not well in southland. The above could be equally true of a number of juristitions. We are not going to attract people to the sport we all fell in love with if we do not retain the essence of what made it great. Progress with thought.

[dizzy]

Also VVV as I recall Penrith AH&IS did give thought to selling their site and relocating up castlereagh way, but as a showground only, not as a harness racing venue, think it was at about the same time as HRNSW ditched the continuity plan!

[Triple V]

What made it great for me was seeing it up close and personal and from a very young age.
Today's kids peering through or just over the outside fence are tomorrow's participants, fans & punters. I don't think that we as an Industry currently do anywhere near enough to foster that demographic, nowhere near enough.

[dizzy]

Agree with that VVV but how is that going to change when you just about need a passport to reach Sydneys principle track which is lets face is located well outside the metropolitan area and well outside the reach of most people thoughts when it comes to an entertainment venue

[Triple V]

Well outside the Metro area? Geeze, I don't know if I agree with that Dot.
Have you taken a drive out Campbelltown/Camden/Picton/ Menangle way of late? The Metro area doesn't knock it off until you get to the other side of Menangle Rd and it won't be long before that gets opened up & built on as well. More houses and residential developments have gone in and are going in out that way than you can poke a stick at. I was out in Camden on ANZAC Day and it looks nothing like it did even as recently as 10 years ago. Suburbia is spreading towards Menangle in double quick time.
In another 40 or 50 years they'll be right in the slot to pull another HP and sell the site off for development & move elsewhere. I just hope I am around to see it.

[Tangles]

What made it great for me was seeing it up close and personal and from a very young age.
Today's kids peering through or just over the outside fence are tomorrow's participants, fans & punters. I don't think that we as an Industry currently do anywhere near enough to foster that demographic, nowhere near enough.

You are right VVV. If we all agree that it was that up close and personal experience that bought us into the game why then are our administrators hell bent on chasing the electronic punters dollar and neglecting the drama and theatre of the sport.

This is fine once we have experienced the excitement of the sport but if we keep removing it from the people away from population centre's then you will be left with a dwindling consumer group who will be just as likely to play Keno or lotto as they do not have thosse early memories. The MARKETING of the product is so poorly handled.

[Triple V]

You are right VVV. If we all agree that it was that up close and personal experience that bought us into the game why then are our administrators hell bent on chasing the electronic punters dollar and neglecting the drama and theatre of the sport.

This is fine once we have experienced the excitement of the sport but if we keep removing it from the people away from population centre's then you will be left with a dwindling consumer group who will be just as likely to play Keno or lotto as they do not have thosse early memories. The MARKETING of the product is so poorly handled.

[VVV] That's a good point Tangles.
By far & away the biggest impact thing that we could do on the weekend race days when families are present on-course is to find some avenue for the kids to safely get up close to the horses.
I see kids walking to school every day as part of what our local primary school refers to as 'The Walking Bus'. There are adults at either end of a train of kids, all of them have those lime green/yellow high visability thingos on...and off they go.
Surely there'd be some way we could do something similar with the kids on a big race day at Menangle or wherever? Groups of half a dozen or so, all high vis gear, walk into the stabling area and have a look around, the people officiating explaining stuff and answering questions along the way. It doesn't take much to get them keen but ignore them now and they'll likely never be. I'd do it for free...well, maybe the cost of a steak sandwich & a coke afterwards. I think that'd be a real buzz.

[Tangles]

Good idea. Also the greatest marketing tool at our disposal our mini trotting ponies. The galloping code has nothing like it. The clubs need to embrace this with open arms. Free family nights, twin seater drives given by adult with child between races.

Employ drivers to tour the schools with giveaways and free passes much like the football codes.

For later in the night Bands that kick off after the last. Advertise in the uni's free gig venue for you to play at. Beer first one free. Just get the people there.

[dizzy]

VVV I'm well acquainted with the Menangle /Camden region, in fact most of Sydney's outskirts. Suburbia is spreading on all of Sydneys outskirts and there is a population increase of 200,000 planned for the southwest. However Menangle was earmarked for development some years ago but this was put on hold due to the coal resources underneath it and the developers moved to the north and northwest of Camden instead-Oran Park, Gregory Hills etc. It will be quite sometime before there is further development in Menangle if at all. If Sydneys second airport goes to Wilton (I doubt very very much it will go to Badgeries Creek) then all the southwest development will need to be rethought.

Given that Menangle Park is adjacent the river and flood affected I'd have doubts about its future worth for development.

Heres an excercise for you VVV try taking public transport from your place to Menangle and back and see how you go? Would you let your kids do it?

[Thevoiceofreason]

VVV I'm well acquainted with the Menangle /Camden region, in fact most of Sydney's outskirts. Suburbia is spreading on all of Sydneys outskirts and there is a population increase of 200,000 planned for the southwest. However Menangle was earmarked for development some years ago but this was put on hold due to the coal resources underneath it and the developers moved to the north and northwest of Camden instead-Oran Park, Gregory Hills etc. It will be quite sometime before there is further development in Menangle if at all. If Sydneys second airport goes to Wilton (I doubt very very much it will go to Badgeries Creek) then all the southwest development will need to be rethought.

Given that Menangle Park is adjacent the river and flood affected I'd have doubts about its future worth for development.

Heres an excercise for you VVV try taking public transport from your place to Menangle and back and see how you go? Would you let your kids do it?

Not real sure I want to be on the Train platform at Bankstown after the last at a night meeting either DOT.... me or my kids

[Mitch]

I don't have anywhere near the experience and knowledge of the industry that most who post on this forum do. I was born in 1980 and have only been involved in racing horses in NSW for a couple of years. My induction into the sport was back in the 80's attending most of the trotting meets in NE Victoria with my grandparents on school holidays. Between the ages of 5 & 14 I reckon I attended as many as 50 trot meets at Shepparton alone + many others at Wangaratta, Echuca, Benalla, Albury etc. I vividly remember how packed the betting ring would get on a midweek night in the middle of winter at Shep.It was always a great night and the people were you met and interacted with were just good people.

What made the trots great back then is not what will make the trots great today, tomorrow & in the next 10 years. Just like what made rugby league great back in 1970 is not the same as what makes it great today. Same with the AFL and any other sport.

I got the shock of my life last year when we took Gamechanger to Shepparton for a race. It had been a good 15 years since my last visit and boy had things changed! I was actually quite taken back at how few people where there. This is the same at every harness track across the country.

The point I would like to make is that I don't think harness racing evolves as sport anywhere near as quickly as what it needs to. In my opinion the key reason for this is due to administrators & participants being caught up in the past and not willing to embrace change and try new things. The lack of professionalism in this sport is a serious problem and what frustrates me is that it doesn't cost 1 cent more to be professional!

Jaimie (Triple V), I really enjoy reading your posts as you consistenly challenge the status quo in search of a better outcome for the industry and that doesn't happen enough. Whether your ideas are wrong or right doesn't matter to me, what matters is that you recognise that doing what we have always done will only deliver us what we have always had and that ain't enough anymore!

Harness racing has to evolve through innovation and change, it is the only way forward. This will mean tinkering with tradition at times and people just have to get used to that! I fully support a move away from Bankstown, the sooner that place is demolished the better! We desperately need another modern facility in metro Sydney with a 1000m+ track that provides fast, competitive, safe and dynamic racing! I am happy for Penrith to stay it has it's place in NSW.

[Danno]

I don't have anywhere near the experience and knowledge of the industry that most who post on this forum do. I was born in 1980 and have only been involved in racing horses in NSW for a couple of years. My induction into the sport was back in the 80's attending most of the trotting meets in NE Victoria with my grandparents on school holidays. Between the ages of 5 & 14 I reckon I attended as many as 50 trot meets at Shepparton alone + many others at Wangaratta, Echuca, Benalla, Albury etc. I vividly remember how packed the betting ring would get on a midweek night in the middle of winter at Shep.It was always a great night and the people were you met and interacted with were just good people.

What made the trots great back then is not what will make the trots great today, tomorrow & in the next 10 years. Just like what made rugby league great back in 1970 is not the same as what makes it great today. Same with the AFL and any other sport.

I got the shock of my life last year when we took Gamechanger to Shepparton for a race. It had been a good 15 years since my last visit and boy had things changed! I was actually quite taken back at how few people where there. This is the same at every harness track across the country.

The point I would like to make is that I don't think harness racing evolves as sport anywhere near as quickly as what it needs to. In my opinion the key reason for this is due to administrators & participants being caught up in the past and not willing to embrace change and try new things. The lack of professionalism in this sport is a serious problem and what frustrates me is that it doesn't cost 1 cent more to be professional!

Jaimie (Triple V), I really enjoy reading your posts as you consistenly challenge the status quo in search of a better outcome for the industry and that doesn't happen enough. Whether your ideas are wrong or right doesn't matter to me, what matters is that you recognise that doing what we have always done will only deliver us what we have always had and that ain't enough anymore!

Harness racing has to evolve through innovation and change, it is the only way forward. This will mean tinkering with tradition at times and people just have to get used to that! I fully support a move away from Bankstown, the sooner that place is demolished the better! We desperately need another modern facility in metro Sydney with a 1000m+ track that provides fast, competitive, safe and dynamic racing! I am happy for Penrith to stay it has it's place in NSW.

Thats a well constructed post Mitch with many valid points, in order to get the best outcomes the game needs input from all perspectives.
I believe one weapon we need to employ far better than we have is marketing..we are getting left behind in that department big time! People are not going to participate in any fashion if they're not given a reason/incentive, we get very little exposure in the general media except when it's something crook for the game. Turning that around alone would make a massive difference.

We will keep on getting the same if we keep on doing the same is exactly right! We need a balance of what works now and what will work into the future. When I was a kid, many moons ago the off course betting had just started to get a hold on the game, but years later it has pretty much over ran it to the point that we are looking almost completely at the punting dollar to fund prizemoney. I have always believed in not putting all your eggs in one basket and this is showing through now as younger people come through.... unless the family are horse people or punters they have no idea or desire to have any idea about horse racing! Our marketing is letting us down because for too long we have focussed on the off course punter and not remembering to project ourselves to a broader audience.

Like you say Jamie is always looking for different ways to do things, he can spit the bit out, go a bit iffy in his gear and want to run around a bit every now and then, but like all the people who contribute on this forum he wants to see the game prosper.

We need listen to every angle Mitch, new ideas and old lessons combine to get the best results if we've all got our ears on!

Cheers,
Dan

[The Form Student]

After reading all the comments........I suggest there needs to be an industry forum established to collect ideas for going forward, and allow any contributor to have their say about the future direction.........then a vote is taken or Cost/Benefit Analysis undertaken to ensure the viability of the selected direction
At the moment.....it would appear that direction is absolutley towards Menangle as everything "Harness Racing"..........they have the money, and that's that!
IMO Eastern Creek is not on, Menagle provides everything that EC can, so why would it even be contemplated......no point!....If Bankstown and Fairfield could not survive even with their local populations, EC has no infrastructure to attract patrons..........does any club really care about patrons through the gate?.....I don't think so, not genuinely I think...........some of the country clubs are doing a great job....my hat is off to them totally! Penrith is the club that's location is superior as you could walk there from the station if you wanted, it has rural close by, and you get horses coming from the west regularly, and it is far enough away from Menangle, to create a need..........also the standard of horses they cater for is paramount! I have put my head on the chopping board.......come and cut it off!

[Triple V]

Employ drivers to tour the schools with giveaways and free passes much like the football codes.

[VVV] That's a belter of an idea Tangles. Nice one.

[Triple V]

vvv i'm well acquainted with the menangle /camden region, in fact most of sydney's outskirts. Suburbia is spreading on all of sydneys outskirts and there is a population increase of 200,000 planned for the southwest. However menangle was earmarked for development some years ago but this was put on hold due to the coal resources underneath it and the developers moved to the north and northwest of camden instead-oran park, gregory hills etc.
[vvv] with a good tail wind and a trusty 5-iron i would be pretty fair chance to hit a golf ball from one or more those areas onto the roof at menangle.
how close to you want the people to be dot? Close enough to walk across the road? A short drive?

it will be quite sometime before there is further development in menangle if at all.
[vvv] it might be worth taking a wander through planned local council/s and state land release/infrastructure developments. Like a number of other areas surrounding sydney it is squarely in the cross hairs.

if sydneys second airport goes to wilton (i doubt very very much it will go to badgeries creek) then all the southwest development will need to be rethought.
[vvv] pipe dream. That's the sussex st. Feed the chickens routine, something that anthony albanese has been banging on about in order to appease the batik sarong wearers & weavers of dilly bags from their own body hair contingent that infest his federal electorate...one which it just so happens is squarely under the current airport's most used flight paths.
if i had a dollar for every time an encumbent labor minister with nothing much else to talk about defaulted to that by dragging it out of the cupboard, dusting it off and giving it another whirl...i'd be living in monaco next door to mick doohan.

given that menangle park is adjacent the river and flood affected i'd have doubts about its future worth for development.
[vvv] when i was a kid the first floor of david jones in parramatta used to get flooded, in fact in a big downpour most of parramatta used to go under. Same for windsor. The jolly frog inn used to go under to the floor of the 2nd storey. That hasn't happened for many years either because the work has been done to stop it from happening. 40-50 years down the track when needs must, i.e. When the need for development walks up & knocks on the door and the $ is right...it's time for some flood abatement works here fellas.

heres an excercise for you vvv try taking public transport from your place to menangle and back and see how you go? Would you let your kids do it?
[vvv] that old chestnut. By way of a critique of the place, the public transport angle for menangle is an absolute furphy dot. I live in an area very well served and soon to be even better served (new rail line) and i guarentee you the vast majority of people around here still drive their own cars to wherever they want to go. Public transport or the lackthereof is not and never has been a make or break as far as any racetrack is concerned.
take rosehill for example. It is centrally located & well served by both train and bus and still the car park and surrounding streets are full to overflowing on race day. The vast majority of sydneysiders have become so used to public transport being so crap fo some many years that they don't even factor it in when thinking about going somewhere. Sydneysiders drive their cars, rightly or wrongly, that is what they do. I haven't been on a bus or a train in 20 years or more.
that reminds me, i must now go off and flaggelate with a birch-broom for not attempting to reduce my carbon footprint. :rolleyes:

vvv

[Triple V]

Mitch, I have always believed that if you are not constantly challenging the way things are...and in doing so either re-affirming that you're on the right track or otherwise giving yourself an opportunity take a different better approach/direction, then you are marking time and effectively marking time is, to me, going backwards. I'd really like to see someone pick up the 'walking bus' race day stables tour idea for the youngsters especially and also for adults who might like to take a shot at it. Maybe it's a half arsed idea, maybe it's not...but unless we try stuff like this, we'll never know. Tangles idea of Drivers visiting Schools is an excellent one and so simple too.
Further to that, if there was some way we could give people a shot at driving one around the track between races or whatever that would make a lasting impression I've no doubt. There's nothing that compares to the feeling you get from letting one slip along for a piece.

[Mitch]

Dan,

Agree that we need to listen to all angles. My compliment to Jaimie was more recognizing the fact he thinks outside the square and doesn't accept the status quo, there are a lot of other contriibutors on this site who provide quality input & suggestions as well... Yourself included.

[dizzy]

Not real sure I want to be on the Train platform at Bankstown after the last at a night meeting either DOT.... me or my kids

Bill you have vastly dissappointed me here as I have considered all your posts in the past to be exactly as your user name indicates "the voice of reason" but what your angling at here is way of the mark if you are inferring I am in support of Bankstowns FES policy. Yes I do live, work and train in Bankstown. No I would not like to catch a train at Bankstown after dark and I don't.

As for the future of Bankstown I don't see that there is one, something I made quite clear in person to Ms Lavender on Monday just gone, and that her partner Mr Ho's comments on harnesslink most certainly did not reflect my opinion (as one of the individuals Mr Ho claimed to represent of the matters discussed) and were inappropriate.

Jamie I'm sure you would be very surprised if you actually knew what I would consider the appropriate path for harness racing in Sydney into the future, it doesn't include Bankstown. So you can desist with the bold type and insults in your reply to my posts, believe me I'm not easily intimidated, and you may also be surprised to know I do actually know a little bit about what I'm talking about.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill you have vastly dissappointed me here as I have considered all your posts in the past to be exactly as your user name indicates "the voice of reason" but what your angling at here is way of the mark if you are inferring I am in support of Bankstowns FES policy. Yes I do live, work and train in Bankstown. No I would not like to catch a train at Bankstown after dark and I don't.

As for the future of Bankstown I don't see that there is one, something I made quite clear in person to Ms Lavender on Monday just gone, and that her partner Mr Ho's comments on harnesslink most certainly did not reflect my opinion (as one of the individuals Mr Ho claimed to represent of the matters discussed) and were inappropriate.

Jamie I'm sure you would be very surprised if you actually knew what I would consider the appropriate path for harness racing in Sydney into the future, it doesn't include Bankstown. So you can desist with the bold type and insults in your reply to my posts, believe me I'm not easily intimidated, and you may also be surprised to know I do actually know a little bit about what I'm talking about.


Dot

My comment was simply stating it does not matter if it is Menangle, Penrith, Newcastle or Bankstown the thought of needing to use public transport to and from the venue can be tricky, ask the NRL they in the past have has similar issues.

After all it was you that introduced public transport into the debate.

I did however have a look at the time tables for trains to Menangle on a Saturday night, there are two direct from central that will get you there in time for the races one at 5.10 the other at 6.19 both direct and in around an hour.

Getting home not quite as easy as you would need to change from a bus to a train perhaps at that time of night not a bad thing.

Unlike Jamie I have actually used public transport many many times in the past few years in Sydney for many purposes, meetings in the city, trips to the airport and major sporting events being the prime targets. I have to be honest however I have never used it to attend the trots. One thing I am sure of is however is I will not need my passport to get to Menangle weather it be by Train, Omnibus or Automobile.

Not even sure I have a current one

[Triple V]

Bill you have vastly dissappointed me here as I have considered all your posts in the past to be exactly as your user name indicates "the voice of reason" but what your angling at here is way of the mark if you are inferring I am in support of Bankstowns FES policy. Yes I do live, work and train in Bankstown. No I would not like to catch a train at Bankstown after dark and I don't.

As for the future of Bankstown I don't see that there is one, something I made quite clear in person to Ms Lavender on Monday just gone, and that her partner Mr Ho's comments on harnesslink most certainly did not reflect my opinion (as one of the individuals Mr Ho claimed to represent of the matters discussed) and were inappropriate.

Jamie I'm sure you would be very surprised if you actually knew what I would consider the appropriate path for harness racing in Sydney into the future, it doesn't include Bankstown. So you can desist with the bold type and insults in your reply to my posts, believe me I'm not easily intimidated, and you may also be surprised to know I do actually know a little bit about what I'm talking about.

[VVV] Bold type was used simply to deliniate my replies to your comments Dot and it is a very a common thing to do. Numerous replies by numerous people to threads on all sorts of subjects to the very same effect can be found on this forum. As for any of that being insulting, that's ridiculous.

[dizzy]

Now I have a little more time Jamie I'll answer your post in more detail.

Yes Jamie I do want people to be able to walk across the road but a short drive would be perfectly acceptable. Be nice if they had the option of a train or a bus too.

Around 2005 Menangle Park was planned to be opened up for development but this was deferred because of the coal resource issue and still is deferred. Campbelltown Council's plan for the area east of the train lines is for it to become a CBD type area with high density housing at some point in the future. This would be good for the racecourse but isn't going to happen anytime soon. How do I know, I looked at buying property in Menangle and had a long talk with a Campbelltown council town planner.

I've no doubt Jamie that I have forgotten more about Sydney flight paths then you will ever know. Sydney's second airport is a political smoking gun but never the less it is needed, unless the government is going to remove the curfew and increase the cap from 80 movements an hour at KSA. Can't see that happening so a second airport it will be and Wilton is the most likely site. It is expected to take 17 years to become operational once the decision is made.

Flood abatement may be a solution into the futue but then again so would zoning for environmental or open space guess we'll have to wait and see on that though I suspect I won't be around anywhere near that long.

I too don't utilise public transport very often and prefer to drive but never the less easy access for people remains a consideration in all venue and event planning, or it least it does outside of harness racing. In your other posts you talked about showing the kids around, perhaps you'd better be prepared to show Mum and Dad around too.

[clumsy]

I went along to the HRNSW forum at Wagga last night, Sam presentation and answers to questions on the night was most impressive. He outlined how much income was expected to be received and where they intended to spend that money for the betterment of the industry. Sam's plan for the future wil ensure that the industry will survive and get stronger over time, it will not happen tomorrow. We all need to have a positive attitude towards the industry as a whole and not bring it down by being negative, their is only so much money to go around and it has to help all those that participate eg.punters, spectators, breeders ,owners or trainers.

[Triple V]

G'day Dot,
Ahuh. That's exactly why Anthony Albanese is currently crapping on about a 2nd Airport. He knows serious consideration is being given to changing the curfew. No way known that the existing airport is running at anywhere near its true capacity, rather its capacity is being artificially restricted by the curfew. Have a chat to Max 'The Axe' Moore Wilton, head honcho at SACL. They could wind it up double time plus out there, no problem, but old mate Alba knows he will pay the ultimate price at the Ballot Box. Imagine, Politicians polarising around self interest? Never. Perish the thought. A 2nd airport isn't needed. It's just another Alba furphy.
As for public transport to race tracks...as I said, take a look at Rose Hill. The vast majority drive there. Similarly, the Football Stadium/Showgrounds at Homebush are well and truly catered for Public Transport wise, as is Randwick racecourse for that matter...and guess what? Most people still drive. It is an inescapable fact of life here in Sydney.

[dizzy]

Jamie it's far more then just Albanese seat at stake with Sydney Airport. A change to the curfew would cause way more political heads to roll then just Albanese. Yes your buddy Max wants more traffic, and larger acft as they pay a greater landing fee and discharge more passengers into the terminal shopping areas and horrendously expensive carparking. Capacity is not 160+ an hour though and he couldn't park it if it was. The federal labour party policy on the second airport is not to make any announcement at all.

The critical point about the football stadium/showgrounds/ rose hill is actually that they are central venues which people do travel to one way or another to get there. No way are you going to see the crowds that you see at a central location at a venue on the outskirts of Sydney

[Greg Hando]

I went along to the HRNSW forum at Wagga last night, Sam presentation and answers to questions on the night was most impressive. He outlined how much income was expected to be received and where they intended to spend that money for the betterment of the industry. Sam's plan for the future wil ensure that the industry will survive and get stronger over time, it will not happen tomorrow. We all need to have a positive attitude towards the industry as a whole and not bring it down by being negative, their is only so much money to go around and it has to help all those that participate eg.punters, spectators, breeders ,owners or trainers.


Start a new thread clumsy and let us know what went on as not all were or are able to attend these meeting's.

[clumsy]

Start a new thread clumsy and let us know what went on as not all were or are able to attend these meeting's.
Sorry Greg this should have been in the "Long overdue " thread. Most of the information is already in this thread.

[2minuteman]

G'day Dot,
Ahuh. That's exactly why Anthony Albanese is currently crapping on about a 2nd Airport. He knows serious consideration is being given to changing the curfew. No way known that the existing airport is running at anywhere near its true capacity, rather its capacity is being artificially restricted by the curfew. Have a chat to Max 'The Axe' Moore Wilton, head honcho at SACL. They could wind it up double time plus out there, no problem, but old mate Alba knows he will pay the ultimate price at the Ballot Box. Imagine, Politicians polarising around self interest? Never. Perish the thought. A 2nd airport isn't needed. It's just another Alba furphy.
As for public transport to race tracks...as I said, take a look at Rose Hill. The vast majority drive there. Similarly, the Football Stadium/Showgrounds at Homebush are well and truly catered for Public Transport wise, as is Randwick racecourse for that matter...and guess what? Most people still drive. It is an inescapable fact of life here in Sydney.
Could we leave unbiased political discourse to Bolt,Jones,Ackerman etc?

[Triple V]

Fair enough. Lucky that I didn't mention Craig Thompson, Michael Williamson or Peter Slipper huh? :rolleyes:

[2minuteman]

Fair enough. Lucky that I didn't mention Craig Thompson, Michael Williamson or Peter Slipper huh? :rolleyes:
This is a Harness Racing forum,is it not?If you want a barrow to push,go to Bunnings.

[G-Mac]

I was wondering how a thread on a new track at Eastern Creek and the amalgamation of three clubs turned into a bagging session on the Labor party and people that live in Sydney's inner west. Fair dinkum, some people must get ignored at home and need somewhere to vent.

[Triple V]

I was wondering how a thread on a new track at Eastern Creek and the amalgamation of three clubs turned into a bagging session on the Labor party and people that live in Sydney's inner west. Fair dinkum, some people must get ignored at home and need somewhere to vent.

[VVV] Yesterday Dot mentioned a 2nd Airport going in at Wilton and the reasons why that wouldn't happen went from there. So Ron, Glen, do you think Bankstown & Penrith should be amalgamated...or not? You've got plenty to say about me giving Alba & the crew a pay. What about the actual thread? From what I can see, not a peep there from either of you yet. Bankstown & Penrith to Eastern Creek or not? What say you?

[broncobrad]

WTF... I had to google that coffee moniker thingo you were going by, to see what that was all about and now HSU delegate! God you are a stirring bastard:D

Its been a good topic to follow and most have voiced wide and varying opinions, get back to the topic guys.

[Triple V]

My fault, I admit. I hate the bastards and sometimes it just gets the better of me.
Apologies to one and all.
So Brad, if someone handed you a magic wand and you got a free wave...what would you do to produce a satisfactory resolution to this situation (re: Penrith/Bankstown etc) ?

[broncobrad]

If I had something worthwhile to say on the topic I would have said something by now VVV. I am a bit on the Flat Earths side and probably live in a bit of a time warp. I love tradition in racing, you know, wept a tear when the curtain came down at HP. I also love the small tracks. It creates exciting racing that you can get right up close to, close enough to taste the dust and smell the sweat. That big Menangle track is essential for top class horses to show their wares but they are so, so far away. Surely there is a place for a smaller circuit in the greater metropolitan area. I don't think Penrith has done anything wrong to this point and is well supported by a bunch of trainers.

I haven't answered your question and I can't. I know you can't stop progress and I wouldn't want to. There are plenty more people with more foresight out there with local knowledge and can picture where harness racing will be in 20 yrs time. Prefer to see them taking smaller steps with no risk taking because we are talking about peoples livlihoods here.

[Triple V]

You know something Brad, and this is just a gut feeling I've had zero confirmation of, I suspect there is a significant element of rationalisation across the board in the future planning of The Board. Although it is not being directly aimed at them right now I think it includes some current participants. If I'm reading the Tea Leaves correctly they would much rather a somewhat smaller Industry in terms of individual participants and with that an Industry that has fewer but much larger stables & one that races more often at fewer venues with horses being drawn from those stables. That will certainly be true of the Metro area anyway. Rightly or wrongly, I reckon that's where we are ultimately heading. If it is the case then with it there'll be a need for very significant and widespread investment in NSW Country racing so as to keep the horses flowing to the Metro area racing venue/s.

[dizzy]

I don't know the boards plans but how do you think that fewer stables resulting in multiple representation in races would boost punter confidence in the industry? Isn't turnover paramount to the future?

Perhaps Jamie instead of reading tea leaves its time to open a new thread and people can put forward their own ideas on the direction the industry should go in.

[The Form Student]

Triple, don't you think your a bit like your mate "Albo" spruiking the credentials of a track at Eastern Creek, it's like the debate over the Airport being located at Badgery's Creek,Wilton or Williamstown. What we have uncovered is that the "powers to be" need to release a blueprint for the future of harness racing. If it is like the airport debate, then Bankstown and Penrith should both stay, and need to be supported! This is prime real estate, and both are easily accessible!

[broncobrad]

Harold Parker had some great input on here and his vision of the ID format I thought was excellent, but his vision of a band of X amount of large stables and a professional pool of metrop drivers left a bad taste in my mouth. I have said before that economic rationalism isn't the be all/end all, sometimes you have to put the people first. Initiative and good solid planning to strengthen and protect the industry and its participants is what is needed right now, not grandiose visions of a replicated USA style of harness racing. There is no soul in it.

If I was in the hotseat (and I am glad not to be), I would be sorting out the smaller issues that are holding us back right now (eg corruption, swabbing, poor staffing of stewards, better gradings for more even fields, promotion of the breeding industry, SOME type of promotion that can reach new fans etc). Just because you just found a stack of money under a rock, doesn't mean you have to blow it on stuff we don't need. We ain't never gonna be the thoroughbreds, but we can cerainly project a much better image of ourselves than the one for which we are treated with disdain by the punting public as we are now.

[The Form Student]

Why don't we get Gai Waterhouse to train a few horses for the Number One Club???

[G-Mac]

[VVV] Yesterday Dot mentioned a 2nd Airport going in at Wilton and the reasons why that wouldn't happen went from there. So Ron, Glen, do you think Bankstown & Penrith should be amalgamated...or not? You've got plenty to say about me giving Alba & the crew a pay. What about the actual thread? From what I can see, not a peep there from either of you yet. Bankstown & Penrith to Eastern Creek or not? What say you?

I like the idea of having a half mile track somewhere in the metro area, just for variety of racing.
As for the amalgamation of clubs I am unsure. I'm a minor participant in the industry being just a punter and owning a very small portion of a filly, so I am happy to read the opinions and views of those more heavily involved (at the coal face if you will) and learn a bit. Which is why I get frustrated having to wade through the tripe that belongs elsewhere.

I may form an opinion at some point but until then I don't believe I can add anything to the debate, so I have sat on the sideline.

[Danno]

You know something Brad, and this is just a gut feeling I've had zero confirmation of, I suspect there is a significant element of rationalisation across the board in the future planning of The Board. Although it is not being directly aimed at them right now I think it includes some current participants. If I'm reading the Tea Leaves correctly they would much rather a somewhat smaller Industry in terms of individual participants and with that an Industry that has fewer but much larger stables & one that races more often at fewer venues with horses being drawn from those stables. That will certainly be true of the Metro area anyway. Rightly or wrongly, I reckon that's where we are ultimately heading. If it is the case then with it there'll be a need for very significant and widespread investment in NSW Country racing so as to keep the horses flowing to the Metro area racing venue/s.

One doesn't need to be Einstein to work out where you get you're info Jamie, I was talking to him some time ago and he mentioned how successful the Qld HR scene was integrated as it is into a small number of clubs with a similar reduced number of trainers...SUCCESSFUL????? bit of news Jamie, the answers to harness racing's woes are not copying the disaster in Qld, if you want to choke a business slowly to death... then follow their example! as i've said before..we should learn from old lessons and complement that with fresh thinking. The QLd thing is a bloody disaster, no other way of accurately describing it.

cheers,
Dan

[aussiebreno]

I don't know the boards plans but how do you think that fewer stables resulting in multiple representation in races would boost punter confidence in the industry? Isn't turnover paramount to the future?

Perhaps Jamie instead of reading tea leaves its time to open a new thread and people can put forward their own ideas on the direction the industry should go in.
Apart from the fears of rigging...a small crop of horses eg Tasmania, SA, Dubai inflates punter confidence through the ease of reading line form.

[clumsy]

At the Wagga HRNSW forum Sam left us in no doubt that the board is extending the number of clubs that run TAB meetings, sure they may be taking these meetings from clubs already running TAB meetings but it ensures that these small clubs stay alive. This year in the Riverina West Wyalong held its first TAB meeting, Cootamundra and Griffith have also been allocated a meeting. It has been 5 years since Griffith have raced.

[2minuteman]

[VVV] Yesterday Dot mentioned a 2nd Airport going in at Wilton and the reasons why that wouldn't happen went from there. So Ron, Glen, do you think Bankstown & Penrith should be amalgamated...or not? You've got plenty to say about me giving Alba & the crew a pay. What about the actual thread? From what I can see, not a peep there from either of you yet. Bankstown & Penrith to Eastern Creek or not? What say you?
Do not ascribe to me motives or statements that I have not put forward or made.You are the one who breaks under pressure on the turn and goes off course.Your political opinions may be of great importance to yourself but mean diddly squat to me,and I suspect to others as well.
To the subject of the thread,I come from an era when Wayville (home track) and Melbourne Showgrounds were the go.Wayville was very central to most of Adelaide's population by public transport,cars were the exception rather than the rule in those days.The racing was tight,exciting and also very frustrating because if you weren't in the first four around the home turn you were r**sh**t.May I digress for a minute,if you think we have some suss races now,how about a horse who won an Interdom getting beaten in a Free for All (long odds on) one week and then comes out the following week and is backed from 7/2 to 4/6 from 60 yds in a fast class handicap and brains them.Crowd goes absolutely berserk and the driver simply doffs his hat to the crowd.Boos and hisses turn to bottles, rubbish and anything at hand being thrown at driver.Stewards enquiry,Ha Ha.
To the subject.Harness racing in Adelaide goes from Wayville to Globe Derby.(Question,was the land at Globe owned by an interested party?) New track touted as the best thing to happen to the trotting game since Jesus played centre half back for Sturt.Anything sounding familiar.What are the South Australians racing for?,$1500 in some cases and they cannot afford to run an Inter.No forward planning,nothing done in the way of marketing,country clubs gutted,grass roots ignored,game stuffed.Wonder if the catering company is making any money?
To Vic.The showgrounds always had a crowd and it was helped by the catering company,Denisses I think, running a programme of bringing in works social clubs (remember them) as a great night out.It was great racing and always exciting.I never went to Mooney Valley but have been to Melton,once,never again.If I want filthy cutlery,glassware and a completely uninterested staff I will dine at home.How visitor unfriendly is that place?
H.P. v Menangle?Loved H.P. but understand the reason for selling.Menangle has been built,committee takes a bow,great opening,committee takes a bow,great track,committee takes a bow,great times,committee takes a bow,s**t h***e racing,committee cares less,non-existent crowds,committee cares less,members get no benefits for membership,committee cares less,marketing is non existent (see last major meeting),committee cares less.I have been involved one way or another for 60 years,I could care less.
To Penrith v Eastern Creek.This is a typical public servant attitude to "doing something".Take a club that is well placed,well run, well patronised and by almost any set of KPI's gets an A mark.Close that club down and start a brand new one somewhere.No feasability study,no plan,no real reason,no marketing plan.
Now I may be totally out of order here but I do not see where there is a plan, any plan that encompasses the industry as a whole.
I offer an apology for rambling a bit here as I can only see three lines at a time and cannot judge continuity,never mind,Collingwood are two goals behind and look like rabble.He,He.

[Tangles]

You are absolutely right on the money. As we move further away from the centres of population we divorce ourselves from attracting new patron. Globe Derby Park has waited 30 years for the Suburbs to reach it. What's left, run down infrastructure that if they attracted a crowd the top floor no longer functions. A non existent breeding industry, 2046 mares bred in the early 80's down to 33 by 2012. Country clubs that struggle from one season to the next for finances with less and less assistance from the board. SA TAB sold for 38 million under the Olsen Govt it generated 42 million in yearly profits and the 3 codes in South Australia did not have the foresight to purchase there own racing product back rather they sat back and took a Govt hand out for the sale. Five years of good times then it was gone. Big Hint here use the procedes from the Sale of HP to invest in wealth generation purchase shares in the NSW TAB. Forget about developing courses away from the populous as each time you do the infrastructure will be gutted by the time the Burb's arrive. So the call from all the whiz Kidz will be sell to the developer. My prediction no industry in South Australia with in 15 years probably sooner because of decisions' made in the past and poor marketing of the product. There's always the training track at Gawler and that may well be the principal club in SA and back racing there one day.

[Triple V]

One doesn't need to be Einstein to work out where you get you're info Jamie, I was talking to him some time ago and he mentioned how successful the Qld HR scene was integrated as it is into a small number of clubs with a similar reduced number of trainers...SUCCESSFUL????? bit of news Jamie, the answers to harness racing's woes are not copying the disaster in Qld, if you want to choke a business slowly to death... then follow their example! as i've said before..we should learn from old lessons and complement that with fresh thinking. The QLd thing is a bloody disaster, no other way of accurately describing it.

cheers,
Dan

[VVV] Just throttle back a piece there if you can Dan.
Firstly, where I get my information from???? It's called keeping your eyes and ears open. It's not that hard to work out the way the wind is blowing. Further to the above, did I say anywhere there or anywhere previously..ever...that I agreed with it?
Personally I'd rather see dozens more Trainers & Drivers added to the roster by way of small numbers Trainers being able to take a couple boxes & stable & train their horses on-course at the big venues instead of people having to pony up the big $$$ it takes to set up their own complexes within striking distance of the proposed regional centres.
Further to that I have very significant concerns that the original spirit/intentions of the proposed on-course stabling will be somehow lost in the wash & I expressed exactly that view in either this or another thread here on this forum. It bothers me that there is not some sort of a waiting list or similar, it bothers me that if there is one then it is not freely available. It just bothers me point blank. Maybe I'm being cynical but I do sincerely think the fix is in on this one. I think the smaller operations will not get a look in...and that's wrong.
For mine Participants really need to be on their toes to make sure that this DOESN'T happen because I am sure that is the (if only for the sake of expedience perhaps? ) intention of a great many of our Industry decision makers.
I do think we need to rationalise tracks here in Sydney but with that should not come a similar rationalisation of participants. Somehow there are those in administration who inexplicably think that the two go inextricably hand in hand. I for one do not agree. If the on-course boxes thing goes South and the one and two horse trainers who want in on them instead get shut out in favour of large local and interstate/NZ stables then NSW participants should scream the house down because that is and right from the very get go it never was the intention. No need to shoot the messenger. If you'd rather not be aware of the way they're going to run it and instead scream long and loud when it's all over bar the shouting then be my guest. If otherwise, then put the pressure on the powers that be now and club it to death before it gets wings and flies.

[Triple V]

Do not ascribe to me motives or statements that I have not put forward or made.You are the one who breaks under pressure on the turn and goes off course.Your political opinions may be of great importance to yourself but mean diddly squat to me,and I suspect to others as well.
To the subject of the thread,I come from an era when Wayville (home track) and Melbourne Showgrounds were the go.Wayville was very central to most of Adelaide's population by public transport,cars were the exception rather than the rule in those days.The racing was tight,exciting and also very frustrating because if you weren't in the first four around the home turn you were r**sh**t.May I digress for a minute,if you think we have some suss races now,how about a horse who won an Interdom getting beaten in a Free for All (long odds on) one week and then comes out the following week and is backed from 7/2 to 4/6 from 60 yds in a fast class handicap and brains them.Crowd goes absolutely berserk and the driver simply doffs his hat to the crowd.Boos and hisses turn to bottles, rubbish and anything at hand being thrown at driver.Stewards enquiry,Ha Ha.
To the subject.Harness racing in Adelaide goes from Wayville to Globe Derby.(Question,was the land at Globe owned by an interested party?) New track touted as the best thing to happen to the trotting game since Jesus played centre half back for Sturt.Anything sounding familiar.What are the South Australians racing for?,$1500 in some cases and they cannot afford to run an Inter.No forward planning,nothing done in the way of marketing,country clubs gutted,grass roots ignored,game stuffed.Wonder if the catering company is making any money?
To Vic.The showgrounds always had a crowd and it was helped by the catering company,Denisses I think, running a programme of bringing in works social clubs (remember them) as a great night out.It was great racing and always exciting.I never went to Mooney Valley but have been to Melton,once,never again.If I want filthy cutlery,glassware and a completely uninterested staff I will dine at home.How visitor unfriendly is that place?
H.P. v Menangle?Loved H.P. but understand the reason for selling.Menangle has been built,committee takes a bow,great opening,committee takes a bow,great track,committee takes a bow,great times,committee takes a bow,s**t h***e racing,committee cares less,non-existent crowds,committee cares less,members get no benefits for membership,committee cares less,marketing is non existent (see last major meeting),committee cares less.I have been involved one way or another for 60 years,I could care less.
To Penrith v Eastern Creek.This is a typical public servant attitude to "doing something".Take a club that is well placed,well run, well patronised and by almost any set of KPI's gets an A mark.Close that club down and start a brand new one somewhere.No feasability study,no plan,no real reason,no marketing plan.
Now I may be totally out of order here but I do not see where there is a plan, any plan that encompasses the industry as a whole.
I offer an apology for rambling a bit here as I can only see three lines at a time and cannot judge continuity,never mind,Collingwood are two goals behind and look like rabble.He,He.

[VVV] Geeze, dare I say that at one time, Bill Shorten worked for Collingwood? :rolleyes:

[p plater]

I remember someone in Vic telling me that Melton had plans for a stabling complex, but all interested parties lost interest when told a commercial return was planned.
That was $300 per horse per month

[dizzy]

I remember someone in Vic telling me that Melton had plans for a stabling complex, but all interested parties lost interest when told a commercial return was planned.
That was $300 per horse per month

That doesn't surprise me p plater. It would actually be quite cheap if you where racing and earning at Melton every week, not so if you wern't though.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong Jamie but the way I heard it Menangle intends to let their barns out in stable blocks of twenty. If you only want a couple of stables you'll have to sublet from other trainers.

[2minuteman]

[VVV] Geeze, dare I say that at one time, Bill Shorten worked for Collingwood? :rolleyes:

This is apropos of what exactly?

[Mitch]

So is the solution to all of this as simple as the following:

1. HRNSW work with Penrith Club and state government to upgrade some facilities such as tie up stalls and track surface to make it the premier half mile track in NSW. Program in 8-12 metro meetings per year + continue with current schedule of 1 mid week night meeting per week. maybe some of the metro meetings could be on Sunday afternoon to draw in families etc. who wouldn't go on a week night. (medium cost, hopefully supported by govt funding)

2. Demolish Bankstown and find a way to put a 1000m track on the same site with new facilities or sell Bankstown and relocate to some where else in a suitable metro location and build a 1000m track. Give this venue 8-12 metro meetings per year as well and have a consistent mid week night program like Penrith. I would think it makes sense to re-develop Bankstown, given there is an established network of trainers there and it's a reasonably accessible location. (high cost, but could be achieved through various ways if the right people manage it)

3. Continue to develop Menangle as the states leading metropolitan harness racing venue and expand the facilities to develop the venue as an entertainment complex also (whether it be functions or other types of entertainment can be worked out). Make sure Newcastle also receives ongoing support to keep its facilities and track to a high standard. (NSWHRC has plenty so no issue with funding here, not sure of newcastles financial position but wouldn't expect this require huge investment as track is in pretty good shape already)

4. Work closely with the country clubs to develop a really strong country cups program that ties in well with local events in that community (i.e. Tamworth Cup around CMF time etc). This is a great way recruit new participants in regional areas and inject great theatre and awareness into regional areas that have existing harness communities. ( low cost)

5. HRNSW develop a well credentialed marketing team that is responsible for marketing on behalf of all tracks. Each of the tracks contribute to a promotional fund based on the number of feature meetings etc. they have and the scale of the meetings (Menangle would obviously contribute the most and so on from there). With this model you get economic rationalisation and improved expertise in a critical area. Economic rationalisation has to happen, better it happen in support areas rather than to the industry participants themselves. (should actually generate cost savings which can be redistributed back into greater marketing spend)

6. HRA to chair a consultative committee of representatives from each state to develop a feature race calendar that maximises the opportunity for Australian Harness racing to deliver a product that has the best horses racing in the most competitive feature races that draws great crowds and increased wagering revenue. To ensure that we don't have clashing of 2yo and 3yo features races in different states at the same time. (minimal cost)

I make no apology for the simplicity of my solution, it can be that easy if people put aside their personal motivations and focus on the greater good of harness racing to get stuff done. If I have learnt one thing in my life it's that society does a great job of letting complication, duplication and political interruption get in the way of simply good, well executed solutions.

Action drives evolution and evolution is what we need.

[Danno]

Mitch,
not sure I agree with all of those points and some are supposedly in place, but it's most definitely the type of thinking we need.

Action drives evolution and evolution is what we need. Love that tag Mitch, I'm certain your post will create plenty of discussion!!!

[Mitch]

Dan,

I don't agree with all of them either but that's point I am trying to make. We are never going to get total agreement but sometimes I think people procrastinate in search of agreement instead of doing stuff to make things happen.

[mango]

Hi Mitch

I'm not sure if they can sell Bankstown and relocate because i don't think the Bankstown H.R.C own's the land ( i could be wrong) and if they only want one other track in Sydney beside's Menangle i'd be leaning towards your idea of doing what they can to extend Penrith's track and fixing up there facilities.

[clumsy]

Hi Mitch

I'm not sure if they can sell Bankstown and relocate because i don't think the Bankstown H.R.C own's the land ( i could be wrong) and if they only want one other track in Sydney beside's Menangle i'd be leaning towards your idea of doing what they can to extend Penrith's track and fixing up there facilities.

I am sure Sam mentioned that two million is to be spent on stabling and facilities at Penrith, no mention was made of the track.

[Triple V]

If I have learnt one thing in my life it's that society does a great job of letting complication, duplication and political interruption get in the way of simply good, well executed solutions.

[VVV] Ain't that the truth. Testify Brother Mitch!
Re: (6) Couldn't agree more. In fact I'd like to see them take it even further and develop a Grand Circuit of sorts for both 2yos & 3yos. That would really be something.

[aussiebreno]

2 and 3yo races have too many state/sire restricted races to make a grand circuit function with the best horses available each race. Also with the derbies/oaks, I don't think you gain much by putting a title of Grand Circuit champion on it, 6 time Derby winner is just as impressive by any other name.

A grand circuit for 4yos however....

[2minuteman]

So is the solution to all of this as simple as the following:

1. HRNSW work with Penrith Club and state government to upgrade some facilities such as tie up stalls and track surface to make it the premier half mile track in NSW. Program in 8-12 metro meetings per year + continue with current schedule of 1 mid week night meeting per week. maybe some of the metro meetings could be on Sunday afternoon to draw in families etc. who wouldn't go on a week night. (medium cost, hopefully supported by govt funding)

2. Demolish Bankstown and find a way to put a 1000m track on the same site with new facilities or sell Bankstown and relocate to some where else in a suitable metro location and build a 1000m track. Give this venue 8-12 metro meetings per year as well and have a consistent mid week night program like Penrith. I would think it makes sense to re-develop Bankstown, given there is an established network of trainers there and it's a reasonably accessible location. (high cost, but could be achieved through various ways if the right people manage it)

3. Continue to develop Menangle as the states leading metropolitan harness racing venue and expand the facilities to develop the venue as an entertainment complex also (whether it be functions or other types of entertainment can be worked out). Make sure Newcastle also receives ongoing support to keep its facilities and track to a high standard. (NSWHRC has plenty so no issue with funding here, not sure of newcastles financial position but wouldn't expect this require huge investment as track is in pretty good shape already)

4. Work closely with the country clubs to develop a really strong country cups program that ties in well with local events in that community (i.e. Tamworth Cup around CMF time etc). This is a great way recruit new participants in regional areas and inject great theatre and awareness into regional areas that have existing harness communities. ( low cost)

5. HRNSW develop a well credentialed marketing team that is responsible for marketing on behalf of all tracks. Each of the tracks contribute to a promotional fund based on the number of feature meetings etc. they have and the scale of the meetings (Menangle would obviously contribute the most and so on from there). With this model you get economic rationalisation and improved expertise in a critical area. Economic rationalisation has to happen, better it happen in support areas rather than to the industry participants themselves. (should actually generate cost savings which can be redistributed back into greater marketing spend)

6. HRA to chair a consultative committee of representatives from each state to develop a feature race calendar that maximises the opportunity for Australian Harness racing to deliver a product that has the best horses racing in the most competitive feature races that draws great crowds and increased wagering revenue. To ensure that we don't have clashing of 2yo and 3yo features races in different states at the same time. (minimal cost)

I make no apology for the simplicity of my solution, it can be that easy if people put aside their personal motivations and focus on the greater good of harness racing to get stuff done. If I have learnt one thing in my life it's that society does a great job of letting complication, duplication and political interruption get in the way of simply good, well executed solutions.

Action drives evolution and evolution is what we need.
Well that saves me a lot of time and effort.
A+ for clarity,thought and presentation.Many points for discussion and further thought.
One major problem however.Too much of what is put forward would (will)be seen by incumbent office holders as an attack on their abilities and performance,and therefore it will be,ignored,belittled and held to ridicule.
Can we see comments like this leading to further discussion/s,forward planning and action?
I thought so.......

[Triple V]

One major problem however.Too much of what is put forward would (will)be seen by incumbent office holders as an attack on their abilities and performance,and therefore it will be,ignored,belittled and held to ridicule.

[VVV] Quite true unfortunately. Either that or such ideas are sidelined for a period of time which is just long enough for the majority of people to forget who it was that had initially come up with them, then...when the coast is clear they are dragged out, dusted off & re-badged as having been the intelectual property of the abovementioned incumbents. :(
If I had scored just a single $1.00 for every time I've seen someone at an Industry meeting or an Internet Forum/Discussion Group or similar come up with a good idea which another or others from within the ranks of administration are ultimately awarded bouquets then I'd be typing this from my house in Monaco, next door to Mick Doohan.

[dizzy]

Hi Mitch

I'm not sure if they can sell Bankstown and relocate because i don't think the Bankstown H.R.C own's the land ( i could be wrong) and if they only want one other track in Sydney beside's Menangle i'd be leaning towards your idea of doing what they can to extend Penrith's track and fixing up there facilities.

Correct Mango the Bankstown club does not own the site but lease it from the council. There are no oncourse stables at Bankstown with all stabling located on private property in residential streets adjacent to the track. In the 12 years I have been there has been an increasing numbers of these properties either redeveloped or sold. Next to none of the purchasers have any interest in harness racing and as many have been muslim, their religion forbids gambling.

The whole Bankstown area is very popular with the muslim community and their numbers are steadily increasing as is their representation on council. It's my view that (sadly) the Bankstown club with the change in demographics of the area will die a natural death in the not too distant future. I see no need to artificially enhance its demise.

My view is their is room in this countries largest city for 3 differing tracks if Penrith wish to remain autonomous. The challenge would be to foster the cooperation and funding required to achieve it

[dizzy]

Jamie I don't care who comes up with the good ideas or who obtains the bouquets for them so long as good ideas are implemented!

[Mitch]

Well that saves me a lot of time and effort.
A+ for clarity,thought and presentation.Many points for discussion and further thought.
One major problem however.Too much of what is put forward would (will)be seen by incumbent office holders as an attack on their abilities and performance,and therefore it will be,ignored,belittled and held to ridicule.
Can we see comments like this leading to further discussion/s,forward planning and action?
I thought so.......

Ron,

Of course they will... Most (not all) of the incumbent are incompetent or limited at best, hence the reason the industry is in the position it is today. Anyway let's not harp on the negatives that ain't going to fix anything.

Dot,

Then if that's the case with the land being leased and the changing community demography, I think HRNSW and the Bankstown board has to find a way to relocate the club to new premises otherwise the slow death will continue at the detriment of the broader NSW Industry. This will require significant investment and may potentially not happen straight away. Rationalizing back to 2 tracks in metro Sydney may not be a bad thing in the short term whilst the industry rebuilds.

[dizzy]

Not sure I agree with you there Mitch. Obviously the improvements cant be relocated. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the dining area or lounge area in the grandstand but as Jamie pointed out there is room for improvement in the external facilities and of course consumables such as salt, pepper and napkins can be purchased. Track maintance could also be improved but the track is servicable -despite the lack of a water truck half the night Washakie didn't go too bad in the Treur.

On those nights we can utilise the grandstand facilites to advantage still but who wants to go to a sit down meal at any track on a monday afternoon. If Bankstown folds then obviously their dates will be transferred elsewhere , but unless it can be proven that those dates would generate more turnover elsewhere already what would be gained by moving them whilst Bankstown is still going.

Don't get me wrong I don't think that Bankstown is the future of harness racing in Sydney but with a bit of a makeover and support there would still be a few dances left in the old girl.

[mango]

I suppose that's something they would have to way up, would a makeover be worth seeing a few more dances or would the money be better off being spent where they will be dancing for a long time to come.

[aussiebreno]

I suppose that's something they would have to way up, would a makeover be worth seeing a few more dances or would the money be better off being spent where they will be dancing for a long time to come.
These were also my thoughts.

[dizzy]

I suppose that's something they would have to way up, would a makeover be worth seeing a few more dances or would the money be better off being spent where they will be dancing for a long time to come.

Mango I guess that would depend on where you think the long term dancehall should be!

[Triple V]

Jamie I don't care who comes up with the good ideas or who obtains the bouquets for them so long as good ideas are implemented!

[VVV] That's very altruistic of you Dot.
Now & again I'd like to see the credit given where it is due, that's all. Some encumbents have over the years become extremely adept at grabbing bouquets & dodging brickbats however. Things that work will invariably be their ideas and theirs alone while those that fail, well, they were the spawn of others and from the outset, doomed to fail.
Industry Consultation has far too often code for Pick the brains of all those who bother to turn up & if, from the huddled masses an unexpected gem is unveiled the default position is snap it up & run with it like you were born with the notion.
Don't you think it would make for a very pleasant change for someone to come out & say "Well, we went along to the meeting at Upper Cumbucta West and old Fred, he stood up and spoke about such and such...and we thought that what he suggested was a good idea so we picked it up and we ran with it"...or whatever. When was the last time you saw that happen?

[dizzy]

I don't question what you say here Jamie and yes it does and doesn't happen as you say but at the end of the day does it really matter so long as good things get done and wrong choices get discarded. Does any one person ever really come up with and implement an idea all on their own? I think we all know that they don't.

[Triple V]

. Does any one person ever really come up with and implement an idea all on their own? I think we all know that they don't.

[VVV] G'day Dot,

I wouldn't be too quick to jump aboard that perenially leaky boat.

Post the EI outbreak here in NSW, do you recall ever paying an Australian Horse Industry Council levvy via HRNSW for the clean-up of said outbreak?
Don't sweat it if you don't recall because it didn't happen...but apparently not without a rather diligent effort being made by the then CEO of the then Australian Harness Racing Council in order to make it so.
This it appeared was a one man policy development/decision making process at work, one which it was said stood to cost the Industry plenty and the fact that it was alive and well and in place and ready to roll but ONLY CAME TO LIGHT BY SHEER ACCIDENT is an extremely disturbing thing, one that occasionally still pisses me off to this very day.

An Industry participant's mate was a Federal MP at the time & saw some horse related legislation come across his desk which as it happened was set down for its 1st reading that day.
Knowing of his mate's involvement in Harness Racing the MP phoned him from Parliament House in Canberra to get a bit of background/input on it. Not having heard anything about it, the participant listened intently and it was then that the alarm bells began to ring.
A quick call around revealed that virtually nobody, anywhere knew anything about it...not at a local nor even at a State or Inter State level.
It was only at the 11th hour that the plan for a National Clean Up Levvy was scuttled...one that would have seen Horse people paying to clean up a disease outbreak that the Government of the day had been responsible for creating...and with the double edged sword of revealing those who were in place to look after our best interests to have apparently inexplicably been lining up to sell us down the river...for God only knows the reasons why. Perhaps it was to cultivate some political favour? Perhaps to simply secure an invite to the next Ministerial Cocktail Party? Who knows. In Harness Racing terms it was approaching treasonous in my book.

So Dot, having read the above, no doubt you'll find it within yourself to forgive me if now and again I seem to view some things with a rather jaundiced eye.

[Mitch]

I have just read the presentation sent out by HRNSW that was used at the roadshows. Some points of interest for me are;



Funding increase ($1.1M from FY11 to FY13) seems a bit mediocre given that there are 150 additional meetings, trackside gaming revenue & increased wagering via TAB Fixed Odds.
Fully support the move to centralised programming - this is a no brainer in my opinion. Make it happen Sam!
Great to see $2M being invested on plant, equipment & track works. The safety of participants & horses is paramount. The better quality tracks we have will also generate more competitive racing.
Some quick decisions need to be made on the 'potential projects'. If all of these get caught up in red tape or people putting personal interests ahead of the sport this will be a crying shame! Some these will certainly evolve the industry so they must expedite a couple and get it done.
I understand the economic rationalisation behind the changes to the number of race meetings etc. This needs careful ongoing review, particularly in regional growth areas.
Handicapping is an interesting subject. My view is why can't we have both? Surely a model where class and conditioned races existed would be exciting and diverse. All we need to do is play around with the mix to understand what balance generates the most competitive fields.
I would support a controlled trial of seeded barriers draws. This is certainly worth investigating if it can make races more competitive.
I don't support the idea of nominating for a meeting instead of a programmed race. Too hard for trainers to have their horses at peak on race day if they only find out distance 4 days before.
User pay licensing should be bought in for restricted license holders. Any A class license holder should pay upfront. The administration of this needs to be simple and cost effective.
Strategies & Concepts: Not sure how much each of the points were elaborated on but I thought this lacked innovation. As I have said before evolution is critical and you only achieve this through the development of new strategies and concepts. Of the 6 points raised nothing stood out as being overly exciting. Prize money growth = obvious, Fillies & Mares Schemes & Incentives = obvious, GWS Track = This is the only real innovation albeit very controversial, Sprint Lanes = pros/cons, Breeders challenge series = good.

Overall a step in the right direction.

[Lethal]

I don,t know the full extent of the presentation BUT if your point No.8 is correct then it is a case of BACK TO THE FUTURE. That is how you used to nominate before the late Eightys', nominate for a programme and after the fields were drawn up, the handicappers would lump all those that didn't get a start into a conditioned race that encompassed those that missed out.
It was rubbish then and it will be the same now.

[Triple V]

Wasn't the plan for those nominate for the meeting and let the handicappers sort them out option that it initially be used for/applicable to R meetings only? Incidentally Lee, that EXACT thing happened here in NSW back when the EI outbreak occurred & not only did much more competitive racing result but during that period TAB turnover actually went UP & quite significantly so.
It was an extremely valuable real life tested and proven lesson that sadly was apparently lost on virtually all and sundry because no sooner had the EI outbreak been mopped up than things went back to the way they had been previously...with every silo town & dung hill programming their own races...and surprise, surprise, turnover duly retreated.

[Mark Croatto]

Wasn't the plan for those nominate for the meeting and let the handicappers sort them out option that it initially be used for/applicable to R meetings only? Incidentally Lee, that EXACT thing happened here in NSW back when the EI outbreak occurred & not only did much more competitive racing result but during that period TAB turnover actually went UP & quite significantly so.
It was an extremely valuable real life tested and proven lesson that sadly was apparently lost on virtually all and sundry because no sooner had the EI outbreak been mopped up than things went back to the way they had been previously...with every silo town & dung hill programming their own races...and surprise, surprise, turnover duly retreated.

G'day Jaimie

I don't think that nominating for a meeting is the way to go, I am however fully supportive of a centralised approach to programming with full on conditional racing. i think trainers should have the ability to place horses and the North America model looks well suited here. I think there needs to be some form of ceiling on the conditions so as to avoid the more dominant dropping back against the weaker horses. The idea of $ earnt in their last 6, 5 or 3 starts is one way, however, without care it is possible for horses competing at the higher level to sneak into a weak event and basically dominate. In many of the North American programs they include conditions which make earners, of say more than $50k lifetime as an example, ineligible. I think this would be the way to go, there's endless conditions that can be written whilst still giving trainers the ability to plan and place horses, and whilst also ensuring that like races like.

Regards

Mark

[Triple V]

G'day Jaimie

I don't think that nominating for a meeting is the way to go, I am however fully supportive of a centralised approach to programming with full on conditional racing. i think trainers should have the ability to place horses and the North America model looks well suited here. I think there needs to be some form of ceiling on the conditions so as to avoid the more dominant dropping back against the weaker horses. The idea of $ earnt in their last 6, 5 or 3 starts is one way, however, without care it is possible for horses competing at the higher level to sneak into a weak event and basically dominate. In many of the North American programs they include conditions which make earners, of say more than $50k lifetime as an example, ineligible. I think this would be the way to go, there's endless conditions that can be written whilst still giving trainers the ability to plan and place horses, and whilst also ensuring that like races like.

Regards

Mark

[VVV] G'day Mark,
I agree with all of that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of you nominate and let us sort it out, rather I was trying to highlight that during that EI outbreak period here in NSW we operated under full on conditioned racing principles (albeit with the composition of the fields being left to the discretion of the handicappers)...and competitive racing/like racing like/turnover wise it worked extremely well. The sooner that we finally change to centralised programming and a full conditioned racing basis here in NSW, the beter off we'll be.

[Mark Croatto]

[VVV] G'day Mark,
I agree with all of that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of you nominate and let us sort it out, rather I was trying to highlight that during that EI outbreak period here in NSW we operated under full on conditioned racing principles (albeit with the composition of the fields being left to the discretion of the handicappers)...and competitive racing/like racing like/turnover wise it worked extremely well. The sooner that we finally change to centralised programming and a full conditioned racing basis here in NSW, the beter off we'll be.

Hi Jaimie

I didn't think you were. Actually, Goulburn held about 6 meetings under those conditions, and as you said, they were a roaring success in both the quality of racing and from the perspective of turnover.

Regards

Mark

[Lethal]

The issue was not about centralised handicapping,it will come and probably not soon enough if you look closely at the 'same old,same old' that most clubs offer.
No.8 was about blind nominating for a meeting rather than a race/s. This method does not recognise that Standardbreds are similar to Thoroughbreds in that some are purely sprinters(1600m), middle distance (2000m) and stayers (2200+). We all know the faster class horses can win over all distances, but this is generally due to the speed of the race, a benefit not often offered to those in restricted grades.
Trainers should be able to place their respective horses where they are most able to get a return and not just be making up the numbers for the sake of the clubs.TAB.

[mango]

Hi Lee
I agree totally that trainers should be able to place there horses where they have the best possible chance of getting a return for the owner who pay's the bill. I don't think any owner would be happy to see his horse in a race just to make up the number's.

[Mark Croatto]

The issue was not about centralised handicapping,it will come and probably not soon enough if you look closely at the 'same old,same old' that most clubs offer.
No.8 was about blind nominating for a meeting rather than a race/s. This method does not recognise that Standardbreds are similar to Thoroughbreds in that some are purely sprinters(1600m), middle distance (2000m) and stayers (2200+). We all know the faster class horses can win over all distances, but this is generally due to the speed of the race, a benefit not often offered to those in restricted grades.
Trainers should be able to place their respective horses where they are most able to get a return and not just be making up the numbers for the sake of the clubs.TAB.

Hi Lee

I agree, is anybody saying that shouldn't be the case? Have conditioned racing with workable and realistic conditions around a centralised programming approach. Trainers should see what the type of race is on offer for any particular meeting, and in particular the condtions which apply. I can't see anybody arguing differently

Regards

Mark

[Lethal]

If you look at Mitchs' post about the HRNSW presentation, then it seems to suggest that this was what was proposed, ie: nominating for a meeting rather than for a race.

[Mark Croatto]

If you look at Mitchs' post about the HRNSW presentation, then it seems to suggest that this was what was proposed, ie: nominating for a meeting rather than for a race.

I'm with you now. Yes, you're right; it should not happen. I'm reasonably confident it won't

Regards

[Lethal]

That's what it used to be like and it was diabolical.

[Triple V]

Fellas,
When you think about it, under a Centralised Programming/Conditioned Racing system, either way...as in Trainers nominating a horse for a meeting & letting the Handicappers sort it out...or otherwise having the Handicappers writing and publishing the race conditions for Trainers to then nominate to, which is effectively pre-sorting the fields by way of conditions, the Handicapper has the final say on the composition of fields and whatever it is, be it a Pre or Post nom sorting system...the net result would effectively be the same. One's passive, the other active, that's all.

[gregcattell]

have a horse started racing january was c5 first 3 starts had to race against horses up
m4 or better drop back in class can not get conscistant racing 13 starts 7 no starts so far
r1 & better cowra could not make race for r7 horses on home track is this fair

[dizzy]

Trainers should alway have the final say on what they start in as only they can know a horses "real" condition. "Centralised" programming did work well during EI at Bankstown with very limited numbers for our 2 meetings before we sucumbed to EI. In many races the driver was instrumental in the outcome with not surprisingly Josh Willick for the most part prevailing.

As for each club doing their own programming then obviously the skill and knowledge of the individual doing the job is paramount. Rather then a fully centralised system or an individual club one, then maybe one person overseeing a region in consultation with individual clubs and HRNSW maybe the best model. I presume that HRNSW has the ability to "ghost" meetings from the data they receive on trials and nominations, which is likely to be more accurate then stable or return to work forms.

[aussiebreno]

Fellas,
When you think about it, under a Centralised Programming/Conditioned Racing system, either way...as in Trainers nominating a horse for a meeting & letting the Handicappers sort it out...or otherwise having the Handicappers writing and publishing the race conditions for Trainers to then nominate to, which is effectively pre-sorting the fields by way of conditions, the Handicapper has the final say on the composition of fields and whatever it is, be it a Pre or Post nom sorting system...the net result would effectively be the same. One's passive, the other active, that's all.
Handicappers make blatant and simple mistakes in selecting fields from the noms for one race, as I've pointed out on this forum before. How they could appropriately select fields with no programming to go is beyond me.
During EI race fields were down, people were just happy to get a run. On the same card there were R1/2s and then R2-R5s etc...a trainer of an R2 may prefer one race conditions over the other. How does the handicapper decide which R2 goes in what race?

Similarly, the R1+ divided race conditions which are currently programmed and then turned into a race/races. Out of these divided conditions lets say that come up with two races that are both R1-R3. One is $L4 <$2000 and the other is $L4 <$4000. There has been situations where a horse eligible for the <$2000 race have ended up in the <$4000 race due to number of horses entered.

These kind of things happen and irritate people even if Jesus Christ himself was the handicapper. Letting a handicapper pick fields from noms received is scary.

P.S When Arwoc Flier ran 2nd at Leeton on New Years Night it made for a very profitable night (got quinella). Unfortunately it has still been my most profitable night for the year and probably will be!

[aussiebreno]

Trainers should alway have the final say on what they start in as only they can know a horses "real" condition. "Centralised" programming did work well during EI at Bankstown with very limited numbers for our 2 meetings before we sucumbed to EI. In many races the driver was instrumental in the outcome with not surprisingly Josh Willick for the most part prevailing.

As for each club doing their own programming then obviously the skill and knowledge of the individual doing the job is paramount. Rather then a fully centralised system or an individual club one, then maybe one person overseeing a region in consultation with individual clubs and HRNSW maybe the best model. I presume that HRNSW has the ability to "ghost" meetings from the data they receive on trials and nominations, which is likely to be more accurate then stable or return to work forms.
Field conditions are written, and need to be written, well in advance of race day. Of course trial and noms all help, but they say who is at the races now (or in a week or two) whereas other forms could identify who could be racing in 2-3 months.

[Triple V]

Field conditions are written, and need to be written, well in advance of race day. Of course trial and noms all help, but they say who is at the races now (or in a week or two) whereas other forms could identify who could be racing in 2-3 months.

[VVV] Indeed. That's right on the money Breno.
A return to work aspect added to Stable Returns is a double edged sword but it is a pleasant one because, when combined with Centralised Programming, it would definitely allow for the production of much more accurate programming and with it a very significant shortening of the current lead in times.
Instead of the 2-3 months routine, under such a system it could be easily cut down to a 1 month to 6 weeks spread. More accurate and more timely information would of course allow for more accurate programming and consequently more races would stand up and more horses would get a start. I reckon it's a no brainer.

[Triple V]

trainers should alway have the final say on what they start in as only they can know a horses "real" condition. "centralised" programming did work well during ei at bankstown with very limited numbers for our 2 meetings before we sucumbed to ei. In many races the driver was instrumental in the outcome with not surprisingly josh willick for the most part prevailing.
[vvv] g'day dot,
there's no downplaying it. It worked incredibly well & throughout the whole state in fact and with good sized fields in most instances. It duly produced closer, more competitive racing & so much better wagering opportunities...consequently the tab turnover increased & markedly so.

as for each club doing their own programming then obviously the skill and knowledge of the individual doing the job is paramount.
[vvv] the crux of the matter's not actually who amongst the individual club race secretaries has the skill to do the job for their club and who does not, rather it is simply that never in a million years will everyone going in their own direction and doing their own thing work as well as centralised programming would. We have long suffered and currently we continue to suffer under a regime whereby the left hand simply does not know nor in some cases does it give a bugger what the right hand is doing. That situation has to change & thankfully, sooner rather than later, it will.

rather then a fully centralised system or an individual club one, then maybe one person overseeing a region in consultation with individual clubs and hrnsw maybe the best model.
[vvv] that's like being a little bit pregnant or partially jumping from an aeroplane. It's in boots & all or it is not worth doing.

i presume that hrnsw has the ability to "ghost" meetings from the data they receive on trials and nominations, which is likely to be more accurate then stable or return to work forms.
[vvv] what would be the point of doing that dot? I'm not sure we're on the same page as far as a return to work notification is concerned. by the point you mention above...the horses have already reached the stage where they are ready to race or very close to it. The return to work aspect added to stable returns is meant to preceed that point by numerous weeks, ideally by as many as possible. An over the internet clicking of... Or the physical ticking of a box, doing a tiny bit of extra work/paperwork which would be of benefit to everyone by way of greatly assist handicappers operating under a centralised programming format to both shorten lead in times & much more accurately produce programs...is surely not a great impost on time nor effort?


vvv

[Triple V]

handicappers make blatant and simple mistakes in selecting fields from the noms for one race, as i've pointed out on this forum before. How they could appropriately select fields with no programming to go is beyond me.
[vvv] i'm not exactly sure how they went about it during the ei period however they must have had some idea because they did it very effectively indeed.

during ei race fields were down, people were just happy to get a run. On the same card there were r1/2s and then r2-r5s etc...a trainer of an r2 may prefer one race conditions over the other. How does the handicapper decide which r2 goes in what race?
[vvv] that my friend is 'the art of handicapping' in all its glory.
the huge fault with current system is that it forces horses out through the top as it handicaps on historical form (wins that may have occured many months and sometimes years prior) as opposed to using their current form as a handicapping measure... And that is pretty bloody disgraceful, imo.
in the case of the ei programming, as i recall the out of form r5's got dropped in against the in form r2's whilst r1/r2's that were struggling to get beyond that got to race each other and so on. It was no more or less complicated than that.

similarly, the r1+ divided race conditions which are currently programmed and then turned into a race/races. Out of these divided conditions lets say that come up with two races that are both r1-r3. One is $l4 <$2000 and the other is $l4 <$4000. There has been situations where a horse eligible for the <$2000 race have ended up in the <$4000 race due to number of horses entered.
[vvv] not a whole lot of difference to nominating for a 2yo fillies or 3yo fillies only race at penrith with the usual caveat that should there be insufficient noms the race will be combined with the same age group colts & gelding.


these kind of things happen and irritate people even if jesus christ himself was the handicapper. Letting a handicapper pick fields from noms received is scary.
[vvv] it's a reasonable fear breno. I don't trust too many people to be able to do that or for that matter anything like it properly & evenhandedly...but i do trust the abilities of the current one here in nsw to do just that.
on top of the fact that i know the bloke and i know how good he is at his job, he already has the runs on the board as far as that sort of handicapping/assembling of race fields goes (ei).

p.s when arwoc flier ran 2nd at leeton on new years night it made for a very profitable night (got quinella). Unfortunately it has still been my most profitable night for the year and probably will be!
[vvv] by way of them winning the messenger in nz, dean braun's horse and dexter dunn delivered me my box of bacci's for the year and i don't expect there to be many/any more. ;)



vvv

[dizzy]

Mark certainly did do a very good with the race programming during EI at Bankstown from a very limited pool and our turnover was very good, and I'll take your word Jamie that it was the same throughout the state. But given the unique circumstances around the state with EI can we ever be certain that the results achieved re turnover were solely the result of centralised programming? Did the reduced numbers of meetings (gallops as well) for example have an impact? I think we have to consider the later as a significant driver of increased turnover on those meetings that went ahead.

Mark is certainly very capable but if it were to be solely placed in his hands what happens if he becomes unavailable?

[Triple V]

I don't know what happens if he's not around Dot. If I could answer that for you I would.
I hope that he's around until his teeth fall out along with his hair. It's a reasonable concern of course, but so are a whole host of other things over which we similarly have no control.
He does get itchy feet from time to time & he skips off overseas on various trans-continental jaunts and the like...but I don't think Mark is planning to bugger off for good or otherwise to fall off his perch anytime soon (although in saying that, word is there's a chicky babe around that puts a fair bit of strain on his old ticker from what I've been told). I'll check with him and get back to you. :D:D:D:D:D As the infinitely fetching Keira Kinightley as Guinevere said to Artorious in the movie, King Arthur "What tomorrow brings...we cannot know".