Majestic Mach

[Mitch]

I just watched the replay of his performance in the APG Final. Wow!

1.55.8, home in 26.3..... Dixon never moved on him in the straight and the plugs remained firmly lodged in his ears! The horse looked like he was cruising and put a big gap on them in a short distance up the straight.

Replicate that type of performance at Menangle and he would have broken all types of records in my opinion.

Times aren't everything, I know. He is also unbeaten, most of his wins have been by comfortable margins and he looks to improve with every start.

I think this horse might be something pretty special!

Others thoughts?

[broncobrad]

This bloke looks like he has got a range of gears that are yet to tried. He is smooth as silk, an absolute professional and I reckon you're on the money Mitch. This horse is made for Menangle and it will be a pleasure to watch him. There are a few boom horses around but he IS the real deal.

[mightymo]

an absolute star - cant wait to see him race again

[Big Max]

Unlimited ability and super exciting to watch

[Triple V]

Incredible athleticism, great gait, wicked speed.

[The Form Student]

I think the third horse, Must Be Nice ran a very brave race also, 3 wide to outside and battled on to get beat 17 metres............but the winner went super!

[M.John]

Out and out freak ... his brother has similar potential MARSHALL LAW .. had attitude problems tho and also doesnt race as nice as this one. Have been wraps on this one for a while, was said to be better than his brother. Sure is. Best 2yo Ive ever seen, was there last Sat night and wow that horse has something about him. Going places.

[Triple V]

Too bad the bugger is two stones light. A local bred sire prospect goes begging.

[Danno]

Yes he is beautifully bred Jamie, and gifted, but he may not have been worth two bob with the extra two stone, and then where would the mares have come from?
having said that i Believe many good local sires are being neglected at the expense of our game. Some of the older "colonial" blood, (much of which of came from the US and europe many years ago) is getting very thin on the ground and with the massive Meadow Skipper influence in the US imports, the gene pool is ever narrowing, which is not good for the breed going forward

[ARTOFFICIAL]

There is a colt down Vic way that says hi, Guaranteed. Super horse. Wait til they actually let him go. Won't it be great when these two meet. Breeders Crown??

[Big Max]

No Majestic mach for breeders crown,shame.

[Mitch]

There is a colt down Vic way that says hi, Guaranteed. Super horse. Wait til they actually let him go. Won't it be great when these two meet. Breeders Crown??

Hey Damien,

You're right he is a nice horse. His win at Menangle the other night was impressive.

Unfortunately Majestic Mach is not heading to the breeders crown, I don't think they paid up for him and I believe he is heading for a spell after the nursery series in QLD.

[broncobrad]

Is this bloke harness racings 'Black Caviar'??? He is now running and winning at her odds of $1.04 and $1.00 and doing it just as easily as her. I hope the Dixons take their time with him, let him grow and who knows, maybe he might be the next Blacks A Fake. He was again tonight just superb. Thats 6 out of 6.

[broncobrad]

There is a colt down Vic way that says hi, Guaranteed. Super horse. Wait til they actually let him go. Won't it be great when these two meet. Breeders Crown??

Guaranteed sure did clean 'em up in the Tatlow c & g final tonight at Melton. We might have to wait a bit longer for these 2 stars to cross paths, I am pretty sure the Qlder was being put away after he finished his current local campaign.

[Mitch]

What about Majestic Mach tonight.... Any questions??? FREAK!

Just toyed with them from the breeze. If he continues to improve at 3 we are in for something very special.

[Alcyone]

Anyone listen closely to Barsby's call after Majestic Mach crossed the line?

Talk about state of origin!

[broncobrad]

Thought Grant made a bit of statement by electing to sit in the death when the lead looked to be there for the taking.

That was a shot fair across the bow of Guaranteed, but moreso would have given Grant a few more ideas on his depth.

[aussiebreno]

Anyone listen closely to Barsby's call after Majestic Mach crossed the line?

Talk about state of origin!
He is known for his blatant parochialism.

[Triple V]

A funny story as was retold to me and involving Chris Barsby.
At a QLD Harness Awards night he was seated on the same table as the former the RQLD Chairman. When Barsby got up to go get a drink or visit the gents or whatever...old mate apparently inquired with Barsby's wife as to his name and what he did.:eek: Finger on the pulse had Bob. :rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with a bit of blatant parochialism Breno. It's good for business. Barsby's good at it. Former GP caller John Hunt over there in WA, he was the undisputed King. The Industry began with "My horse is faster than yours and I'll race you to Church to prove it". Somewhere along the way we all but lost sight of that boastful aspect and I think it has been to our detriment. It doesn't have to become a WWF Vince McMahon style pre race wind up but in the lead up to a big $ race the odd trainer or owner coming out in the press & throwing down the gauntlet to their opposition would make for good copy and no doubt generate interest.
The Fans are still out there, they want to pick sides, they want a horse to follow and I reckon that sort of thing would help no end in generating them.

[Triple V]

Thought Grant made a bit of statement by electing to sit in the death when the lead looked to be there for the taking.

That was a shot fair across the bow of Guaranteed, but moreso would have given Grant a few more ideas on his depth.


[VVV] G'day Brad,
Both OUTSTANDING horses but I'd fall into the Guarenteed Camp ONLY because he is still a colt and as such I'd dearly like to see him & in the future more like him (as in home grown sire prospects) go on to greater things on the race track & eventually stand at stud in years to come. Kevin's horse is hugely talented, right now I can't seperate them on exposed form, but he's a gelding and that's the difference for me at least.

[aussiebreno]

A funny story as was retold to me and involving Chris Barsby.
At a QLD Harness Awards night he was seated on the same table as the former the RQLD Chairman. When Barsby got up to go get a drink or visit the gents or whatever...old mate apparently inquired with Barsby's wife as to his name and what he did.:eek: Finger on the pulse had Bob. :rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with a bit of blatant parochialism Breno. It's good for business. Barsby's good at it. Former GP caller John Hunt over there in WA, he was the undisputed King. The Industry began with "My horse is faster than yours and I'll race you to Church to prove it". Somewhere along the way we all but lost sight of that boastful aspect and I think it has been to our detriment. It doesn't have to become a WWF Vince McMahon style pre race wind up but in the lead up to a big $ race the odd trainer or owner coming out in the press & throwing down the gauntlet to their opposition would make for good copy and no doubt generate interest.
The Fans are still out there, they want to pick sides, they want a horse to follow and I reckon that sort of thing would help no end in generating them.
Didn't say there was....although given QLD have won the last 6 likely to be 7 origins there is indeed something wrong with it!!

[HISGEN65]

This is one freakish animal...an amazing horse is every department.
I am sure the sport in general is praying this superb athletic stays sound & sane..

[broncobrad]

Guaranteed sure did clean 'em up in the Tatlow c & g final tonight at Melton. We might have to wait a bit longer for these 2 stars to cross paths, I am pretty sure the Qlder was being put away after he finished his current local campaign.


There is a colt down Vic way that says hi, Guaranteed. Super horse. Wait til they actually let him go. Won't it be great when these two meet. Breeders Crown??

Seems like there is another smart one out there Damien, the NZer Border Control appeared to have Guaranteed under control at Shepparton in the Empire Vicbred 2yo Heat tonight. They were of course both impressive and ran smart time. In a field of eight on the NSW tote they both started odds-on. BC $1.80 and G was $1.90. Apparently Guaranteed was overcoming a bit of a setback last week, so his run was probably better than it looked. There are two further heats later tonight.

[ARTOFFICIAL]

Hey Brad yes Border Control looked very sharp. Still new I think that was his 4th start so should keep improving. Could he sit outside Guaranteed and beat him? Who knows but doesn't the future look exciting for these top youngsters.

[teecee]

It is generally regarded by the "experts" that Border Control was THE unluckiest runner on Jewels day.

[broncobrad]

Hey Brad yes Border Control looked very sharp. Still new I think that was his 4th start so should keep improving. Could he sit outside Guaranteed and beat him? Who knows but doesn't the future look exciting for these top youngsters.

These two put on another great show in the Vicbred final tonight. Guaranteed showed some real toughness tonight, but theres not much between them. One all.

[Mitch]

Majestic Mach very very good again last night. Had to do plenty of work in the breeze but just seemed to find another gear when required! Most exciting juvenile since pocket watch for mine!

I can't wait to see what time he runs when gets to Menangle.

[mary]

Majestic Mach very very good again last night. Had to do plenty of work in the breeze but just seemed to find another gear when required! Most exciting juvenile since pocket watch for mine!

I can't wait to see what time he runs when gets to Menangle.

Im going to say Guaranteed is just as good as Majestic Mach.
Should clash in the NSW Derby...Pity its not the Vic one.

[Triple V]

I'm cheering for the Artsplace colt if for no other reason than the fact he is still a colt...and a colt such as him, bred & performed the way that he is going on & winning a Derby or 2,3+ is going to be in the longer term a far better thing for the Industry (subsequent breeding career wise) than a gelding going on to win the big ones. Head to head ability I think that Kevin's horse is probably every bit as good but sadly he is sans Jatz.

[dizzy]

I'll be cheeering for Majestic Mach. The industry will be much better served in the long run by another icon like Blacks A Fake then another stallion in the breeding ranks already loaded with Artsplace blood. Now if only Majestic Mach could do a "Black Caviar" and remain undefeated that would really give the industry something to look forward too.

[Triple V]

The lure of a home grown, Oz owned & performed sire prospect & all that such an animal entails insofar as keeping precious Industry Funds at home here instead of them being Western Union wire transferred to the big US & CAN Farms & Stallion Syndicates....doesn't appeal?

[dizzy]

The lure of a home grown, Oz owned & performed sire prospect & all that such an animal entails insofar as keeping precious Industry Funds at home here instead of them being Western Union wire transferred to the big US & CAN Farms & Stallion Syndicates....doesn't appeal?

There are some benefits there VVV but Guaranteed will compete in a market place already saturated with Artsplace blood and his worth to the industry based on his stud appeal pales in comparison to the exponential value that an undefeated champion brings to the industry by way of mainstream media coverage. Black Caviar transcends racing, her worth to the racing industry extends far beyond her prizemoney earnings and the value of her foals at the sales, and it is her undefeated status that fuels that aura.

Courage Under Fire did similar as a two and three year old some years ago, and of course being entire and locally owned brought the benefits you speak of to the industry as well.

Hitting the jackpot would of course be an undefeated locally owned stallion prospect that draws in the media and the public and that has little or no Artsplace blood up close thus being suitable for a mare population becoming increasingly loaded with it.

[Triple V]

As far as the blood of Artsplace is concerned...we're hardly at that point Dot. Not by a long shot.
For example, Broodmares with Artsplace on the top line of their pedigrees would be lucky to account for 10% of all mares respresented by yearlings in the upcoming APG Sales and that includes a number of mares by Artsplace himself.
Even if we actually were close to or even if we had already arrived at such a point...could that be reasonably termed a bad thing?...as in having an overt influence of one of the greatest sires to have ever lived close up in the Australian Broodmare Band?
I just can't see it myself. Currently there's actually significantly more of a Cam Fella influence in the Australian broodmare band than there is to be found an overt influence of Artsplace and even then nobody could ever reasonably term it as saturated. The influence of Cam Fella in Australia has been monumental & long may it continue.
I'd have thought the NZ experience was a good lesson to be learned in this regard re: their total embracing of Direct Scooter line sires such as In The Pocket, Christian Cullen, Courage Under Fire, Mach Three and so on.
Before that they widely embraced the Albatross line through the likes of Vance Hanover, Soky's Atom, Holmes Hanover & so on. The NZ Industry didn't gnash its teeth and begin to flagellate and look for problems that were not there. Rather they simply went after as much of the influence of a good thing as they could possibly get into their breed and accordingly they have reaped the rewards.
Ala the NZ experience with the above two sirelines, Direct Scooter and Albatross...that which you're pointing out here as being something that is somehow bad or something to be avoided as far as Artplace blood is concerned will in fact exactly that which stands the Australian bred product in great stead in years to come.

[dizzy]

As usual VVV you seem to be missing the point and reading something into what I've written that is not there. This years sales catalogue may be as you say but I'd expect that to change rapidly in the next few years when the daughters of Art Major and GFETE come into full production. Art Majors oldest are 6yo, GFETE first local crop are also six and both total over 1000 live foals each now. Add to that 3 sons of Art Major and 2 now of GFETE at stud plus additional Artsplace sons Modern Art, Sportswriter, Stonebridge Regal and Flightpath plus grandsons through their dam Rock n Roll Heaven and Artistic Fella, and a host of others with Artsplace blood as these are just of the top of my head.

No where did I say that the influence of Artsplace was a bad thing in the population just that another Artsplace colt such as Guaranteed would have plenty of competition at stud, and unless your into inbreeding a smaller pool of mares to consort with as the population of mares with Artsplace close up increases.

The Kiwis did embrace their Albatross sons and then largely outcrossed their daughters to the the Direct Scooters line sons which, with the exception of CUF and now Changeover, mostly did not contain Albatross blood and to Falcon Seelster (no Albatross or Meadow Skipper blood even) with great success. The task for us in the future will be to find the stallions that nick with the increasing Artsplace blood. Interesting but not surprising how both the Albatross and Direct Scooter sire lines wern't well regarded in the US yet were such a success in NZ.

However my major point was not the breeding of Guaranteed but that if Majestic Mach can continue to go on undefeated then the potential for him to bring in new interest and money into the industry by way of mainstream prime time media coverage far out weighs the benefits of a redistribution of existing industry interest and funds by way of Guaranteed's stud career.

[Triple V]

Of course Dot, how very foolish of me.
When you write but Guaranteed will compete in a market place already saturated with Artsplace blood.... and..... Hitting the jackpot would of course be an undefeated locally owned stallion prospect that draws in the media and the public and that has little or no Artsplace blood up close thus being suitable for a mare population becoming increasingly loaded with it...who else but me would ever take such comments as you having suggested that the above was a bad thing. :confused:

You know, something just occurred to me re: this debate about the influence of Artsplace sons here in AUS.
It is just the 'there's too much Meadow Skipper blood in the breed' routine...but with the names changed. It was proven a furphy theory back then and it will be so once again
The day that the Australian and NZ broodmare bands get saturated with the influence of any one sireline to the detriment thereof...is the day I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes.

[dizzy]

Yes VVV how foolish of you, and yes who else but you?

I have not said ANYWHERE that an increase in Artsplace blood in the mare population is a bad thing. What I have said is that a large number of existing Artsplace sire line stallions, (sons and grandsons) plus grandsons through stallions with Artsplace dams IS "bad" for Guaranteed individual prospects at stud. This is because of the competition in the marketplace they would provide to Guaranteed. Competition is what sets service fees and determines the numbers of mares served thus having an impact on the dollars Guaranteed could provide to his Australian owners. Do you think the market will fall over themselves to use Guaranteed just because he is Australian foaled and owned?

If Guaranteed was to race on for several more years to become a genuine grand circuit campaigner and then go to stud do you not think that by then many of our leading broodmares will by the stallions with Artsplace blood that have been standing at stud for some years already and increasingly so by the stallions that are at stud now. As a son of Artsplace then Guaranteed to an Artsplace mare would be 2x2, to a mare by a son of Artsplace then 2x3, and to a mare by a grandson of Artsplace 2x 4 to Artsplace. You may be happy with that VVV but I could "guarantee" there would be plenty of breeders who would not be. Having increasing numbers of these mares in the population is NOT bad for the population but it IS "bad" for Guaranteed's prospects at stud simply because he is likely to be denied many of the best broodmares by virtue of his sire being Artsplace. Art Major is a great sire but how much higher would his rankings be if he could cover mares the calibre of the Artsplace mares Rocknroll Hanover and SBSW do?

Let me put it this way. I would love to own (wouldn't we all) an undefeated champion stallion prospect because I would be considerably wealthier then I am now, so would the industry from the influx of interest and money that main stream media coverage of such an animal would bring to the industry. If that stallion was not by Artsplace or one of Artsplace's sons or grandsons but was compatable with their get to produce the next generation of champions then I would be wealthier still.


Meadow Skipper was foaled in 1960 before semen transport and unlimited books and into a much larger and diverse standardbred population then there is today. Foal numbers are down 35% in North America in about the last 7 years, add an expected drop of another 10% this season for the Ontario slots debacle and thats nearly only half the population there was with far fewer stallions of diversified lines at stud. Australia's and NZ populations are dropping too its not on the door step just yet but the potential to breed ourselves into a corner with current practices and NUMBERS is certainly there. My advice to you VVV is buy a new pair of lawn mowing shoes now, then they wont be too grose when you need to eat them.

[Mitch]

Like Obama v Romney and Tony v Julia - Dot & Jaimie are at it again. Always entertaining!

[broncobrad]

Like Obama v Romney and Tony v Julia - Dot & Jaimie are at it again. Always entertaining!

Its like watching the IBF heavyweights going at it for the world title Mitch! Not that either of them will notice my comment but I have learnt an awful lot from them when they are locked in the clinch, butting heads and trading blows, mostly haymakers but that is all part of the theatre.

Gotta say Dot has come back strong from her spell, but Triple is still suffering from his self imposed exile. He has been noticeably slow out of the blocks, completely cordial and not in the least bit provocative. Not sure if I prefer the newer model or would rather the old bull with the short wick back in the ring. But its good to see them both back, circling and sizing each other up. For the life of me though how this thread turned from admiration of the new kid on the block to the new battleground is beyond me. Oops. Forgot to duck!

[Triple V]

Hey Dot, based on that which you see as an overt presence of Artsplace line mares in the AUS Broodmare population and as a result that you are duly prepared to write off the chances of Guarenteed at stud...I'm interested to know what you think of the prospects of Carribean Blaster, Grand Stride and Excel Stride.

[dizzy]

Cant imagine why you'd think I wouldn't notice your comment Brad, I do actually read whats written

VVV I don't believe I have written off Guaranteeds chances at stud just put them in perspective. I don't find Grand Stride particularly appealing personally and would say he needs to do way more yet before he would be considered a stud prospect. Not completely sold yet on either Carribean Blaster or Excel Stride and may never be. Carribean Blaster is by a more commercial sire then ES though BD's daughters have made more impact then his sons, has a couple of big features on his resume and is already part owned by Alabar so will have their marketing and client base to help and has a pedigree that suits an increasing representation of Artsplace in the mare population.

Excel Stride doesnt have quite the resume of CB nor the commercial advantages and a pedigree that is probably better suited to the NZ mare population. I'd imagine there are still many opportunities for both to further enhance or negate their appeal at stud on the track still.

[Triple V]

yes vvv how foolish of you, and yes who else but you?

[vvv] you'd be surprised. It's just that others aren't anywhere near as given to debating with you as i am.

i have not said anywhere that an increase in artsplace blood in the mare population is a bad thing.

[vvv] no, however you've clearly inferred it a number of times without explanation.

what i have said is that a large number of existing artsplace sire line stallions, (sons and grandsons) plus grandsons through stallions with artsplace dams is "bad" for guaranteed individual prospects at stud. This is because of the competition in the marketplace they would provide to guaranteed. Competition is what sets service fees and determines the numbers of mares served thus having an impact on the dollars guaranteed could provide to his australian owners.

[vvv] no, you didn't say that at all dot. You were thinking it perhaps, but posting it as such no...but finally, there's your explanation. Forgive me, for my mind reading powers are not what they once were.
i would have thought if any colt proves himself good enough to be given a chance at stud then the additional facts that he is a son of an absolutely outstanding racemare and one of the all-time great pacing sires & that he is respresentative of an already widely accepted & highly successful sireline in aus would be a huge plus? Apparently though you see it as a cross he must bear?

do you think the market will fall over themselves to use guaranteed just because he is australian foaled and owned?

[vvv] a classic closed question come straw man argument of which you are so very fond dot, and the answer to which is clearly of course not...but if he and others like him were to prove themselves whilst under our conditions on our tracks then you'd at least expect them to be given a chance.


if guaranteed was to race on for several more years to become a genuine grand circuit campaigner and then go to stud do you not think that by then many of our leading broodmares will by the stallions with artsplace blood that have been standing at stud for some years already and increasingly so by the stallions that are at stud now.

[vvv] no, not by a long shot, not by a very long shot. There will be a host of mares by bettor's delight, christian cullen, courage under fire, mach three and so on at stud at the same time. The field to be ploughed by sons and grandsons of artsplace is wide open and all but never ending in that regard. As i said before, the day that we as an industry here in the sthn hemisphere breed ourselves into a corneris the day i will eat my old lawn mowing shoes. This is largely of the same routine that kentuckiana's Ken jackson & his genetics guru hired gun tried on the us breeders when christian cullen went to the us to stand stud. The us pacing fraternity still hasn't bred itself into a genetic corner despite that and other periodic irresponsible chicken little style calls of same from the various alarmists & the southern hemisphere broodmare band is many times more genetically diverse than that of the us & can.

as a son of artsplace then guaranteed to an artsplace mare would be 2x2, to a mare by a son of artsplace then 2x3, and to a mare by a grandson of artsplace 2x 4 to artsplace. You may be happy with that vvv but i could "guarantee" there would be plenty of breeders who would not be.

[vvv] ahuh. The basis for not doing so being that it would not be successful because........???????....because dot said so?
what evidence have you got to suggest it would not work dot? Can you furnish any statistics on this? Or is it just self serving assumption you have made in order to bolster your position?

having increasing numbers of these mares in the population is not bad for the population but it is "bad" for guaranteed's prospects at stud simply because he is likely to be denied many of the best broodmares by virtue of his sire being artsplace.

[vvv] as i said above...there will be a host of mares by bettor's delight, christian cullen, courage under fire, mach three and so on at stud at the same time. The field to be ploughed by sons and grandsons of artsplace is wide open and all but never ending in that regard.


art major is a great sire but how much higher would his rankings be if he could cover mares the calibre of the artsplace mares rocknroll hanover and sbsw do?

[vvv] that applies to all successful sires so it's a moot point.

let me put it this way. I would love to own (wouldn't we all) an undefeated champion stallion prospect because i would be considerably wealthier then i am now, so would the industry from the influx of interest and money that main stream media coverage of such an animal would bring to the industry. If that stallion was not by artsplace or one of artsplace's sons or grandsons but was compatable with their get to produce the next generation of champions then i would be wealthier still.

[vvv] i'll take the horse first & worry about the rest later.


meadow skipper was foaled in 1960 before semen transport and unlimited books and into a much larger and diverse standardbred population then there is today.

[vvv] thanks for the history lesson but it shows you don't read what i write. I wrote meadow skipper blood. Go check. Semen transport most definitely did see his influence spread far, wide and fast via his sons and grandsons and that prompted the same 'there's too much of so and so's blood' in the breed routine that you're suggesting with artsplace here in aus. As i said before, it was wrong then and it will be proven wrong again.

foal numbers are down 35% in north america in about the last 7 years, add an expected drop of another 10% this season for the ontario slots debacle and thats nearly only half the population there was with far fewer stallions of diversified lines at stud.

[vvv] far fewer lines? Not so... But believe what you like. Nothing i can say will change your mind.

Australia's and nz populations are dropping too its not on the door step just yet but the potential to breed ourselves into a corner with current practices and numbers is certainly there.

[vvv] direct from ken jackson's school of genetic alarmists. Will not happen.

My advice to you vvv is buy a new pair of lawn mowing shoes now, then they wont be too grose when you need to eat them.

[vvv] i'll send them to you. I suggest a little salt & pepper and some tomato sauce.



vvv

[Triple V]

Cant imagine why you'd think I wouldn't notice your comment Brad, I do actually read whats written

VVV I don't believe I have written off Guaranteeds chances at stud just put them in perspective. I don't find Grand Stride particularly appealing personally and would say he needs to do way more yet before he would be considered a stud prospect. Not completely sold yet on either Carribean Blaster or Excel Stride and may never be. Carribean Blaster is by a more commercial sire then ES though BD's daughters have made more impact then his sons, has a couple of big features on his resume and is already part owned by Alabar so will have their marketing and client base to help and has a pedigree that suits an increasing representation of Artsplace in the mare population.

Excel Stride doesnt have quite the resume of CB nor the commercial advantages and a pedigree that is probably better suited to the NZ mare population. I'd imagine there are still many opportunities for both to further enhance or negate their appeal at stud on the track still.

[VVV] What about Restrepo?

[dizzy]

VVV I'll take your word for it that you have a posse right behind you. Clearly I cant tell what you may choose to read into my posts to suit your own agenda. I say again I have not said anywhere that an increase of Artsplace blood in out population is a bad thing nor do I believe I inferred it that way. How you interpret what I write is of course up to you.

Your desire to see Guaranteed off to stud was based on his opportunity to retain industry dollars in Australia as opposed to them being wired transfered to the US. My point was not that Guaranteed was not suitable for an opportunity at stud but that the existing and increasing representation of his sireline Artsplace would impact on his capacity to earn dollars to be retained in the industry. My original point about supporting Majestic Mach is and remains that his undefeated staus, should he retain it, provides an unparrelled opportunity to bring new money into the industry that only the support of mainstream media can generate. If the industry is going to survive let alone prosper then new interest and investment needs to be fostered at every possible opportunity.

OK so you think Bettors Delight and the Direct Scooter lines sires daughters will be better broodmares then those produced by sires with Artsplace blood? Perhaps then Guaranteed should stand in NZ, that would be good for our balance of trade, an Australian owned stallion standing OS.

So breeding a increasingly smaller number of stallions of increasingly similar genotype over a larger number of individual mares of increasingly similar genotype in an overall population that is declining in total numbers isn't bad for genetic diversity then VVV? How do you figure that? You build a pyramid then eventually you will reach the top. Perhaps you should do some reading on inbred depression and gene mutation. Impressive but tragic what Impressive did for the Quarter horse population, which numbers around 5 million, and they haven't bred the problem out.

As to the success of inbreeding on the sireline I tender human ingenuity and four hundred odd years of history as a basis for concluding it is largely unsuccesfull for producing superior horses on the track. We have been breeding TB's and STB's for a combined total of around 400 years. It can take as little as 10 years for a representative number of stock from 2x2 and 2x3 crosses to hit the track, a little more then that for 2x4, so how many opportunities have there been in our four hundred year breeding history to produce and assess these crossess? Far more then enough for us to draw some meaningful conclusions on the practice. If it was so to speak the ducks guts for producing success on the track then don't you think that us ingenious humans would not be breeding all our racing stock that way?

As for the actual success rate for Artsplace himself bred that way it remains to be seen, so far Im not aware of an outstanding horse bred that way but here is your opportunity VVV to enlighten me. Artsplace is a great sire and broodmare sire but I for one am very content to allow others to see if he can buck history.

Artsplace is the best broodmare sire since Albatross, some would say better and its moot point whether a sire can cover Artsplace daughters or not? Hardly.

Meadow Skippers blood is indeed spread far and wide however was originately desiminated amongst a larger and more diverse population and spread by a greater number of sons/grandsons then Artsplaces will be and into a smaller total population. You obviously have trouble with the concept VVV but there can actually be too much of a good thing.


As for Restrepo I would imagine he has some more to do on the track before being considered as a commercial sire prospect.

[aussiebreno]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lufaibxUWv1qklq73.png

[dizzy]

Brenno we do have both, and at least several more. But I'll be cheering for Majestic Mach

[dizzy]

You know, something just occurred to me re: this debate about the influence of Artsplace sons here in AUS.
It is just the 'there's too much Meadow Skipper blood in the breed' routine...but with the names changed. It was proven a furphy theory back then and it will be so once again
The day that the Australian and NZ broodmare bands get saturated with the influence of any one sireline to the detriment thereof...is the day I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes.

If it can happen to the quarterhorse breed VVV why cant it happen to ours?

www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HYPP.asp (http://www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HYPP.asp)

www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HERDA.asp (http://www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HERDA.asp)

www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressive6 (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressive6)

www.allbreedpedigree.com/poco+bueno (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/poco+bueno)


Impressive is bred 2X3x4 on the sire lines to Three Bars, can no one see this pedigree configuration being tried with Artsplace in the not to distant future ? There are a number of yearlings bred 2x3 to Artsplace in this years APG catalouge. Impressive and Three Bars could only ever be described as outstanding horses and neither had the disease themselves. Poco Bueno likewise. Ironically those horses that are affected by the diseases originated by Impressive and Poco Bueno also exhibit their most desired characteristics as well.

[dizzy]

HYPP is a simple dominant gene, in order to have the disease a horse must inherit the gene directly from one or both parents who will have the disease that they inherited directly from one of their parents. Thus Impressive may appear only once or multiple times in the pedigree of an affected horse. HERDA is a recessive gene and in order for a horse to be effected Poco Bueno must appear at least once on both the top and bottom of the pedigree. His presence can easily be as far removed as seven or eight generations before the problem shows itself in his descendants.

There is to date no known HYPP or similar in standardbreds however it is impossible to say that a gene mutation cannot occur as a result of inbreeding in the standardbred. HERDA or anything like it has not been identified in the standardbred either to date but it is also impossible to say that a similar occurrence cannot occur in our breed. Inbreeding is not a new phenomomen and was not restricted to quarter horses.

I would like to say that this is not at all direct at Guaranteed, he is a lovely colt and should be given his opportunity at stud if his performances warrant it. My original comments regarding Guaranteed were solely with reguard to his need to compete commercialy in the market place with other horses with Artsplace blood. VVV turned that into my having some kind of tirade against Artsplace blood. Not so Artsplace is argueably the best stallion ever in the breed and his blood should be sort after but judiciously. The same would apply to any other desirable ancestor.



No doubt VVV will come right on back and say that I am an alarmist, but with a closed stud book and a relatively small population I would simply say he is naive.

[Triple V]

Dot, seriously. HYPP???????? Level with me. You haven't got both oars in the water eh?

[dizzy]

Dot, seriously. HYPP???????? Level with me. You haven't got both oars in the water eh?


HYPP is Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis. There is actually a human version of this.

HERDA is Heriditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia.

So yes VVV SERIOUSLY, you need to get out more.

[Triple V]

As a son of Artsplace then Guaranteed to an Artsplace mare would be 2x2, to a mare by a son of Artsplace then 2x3, and to a mare by a grandson of Artsplace 2x 4 to Artsplace. You may be happy with that VVV but I could "guarantee" there would be plenty of breeders who would not be.

[VVV] The really hilarious aspect to the above statement Dot is that of the half dozen or so yearlings bred 2x3, 2x4, 3x2 etc to Artsplace that are set to sell in the upcoming APG Sales, 4 or 5 are being offered by 3 of Australia's leading/most successful Breeders. Imagine that?

[Triple V]

HYPP is Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis. There is actually a human version of this.

HERDA is Heriditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia.

So yes VVV SERIOUSLY, you need to get out more.

[VVV] Ahuh. Dot...please if you would now cite so much a single case of either of those diseases ever occurring in the Standardbred?
While you're at it could you please also cite even a single case of any other genetically inherited disease...anything at all which can be directly & conclusively attributable to the Breeding Industry line breeding to a specific sire and/or group of sires.

[2minuteman]

I know that I am treading on very,very shaky ground entering this discussion as I am so totally not with the breeding industry,but I am sure that my recollection of an interview with the owner of Christian Cullen, about why they were going to the States, was because the industry there had become so inbred that they were actually breeding Mongoloid horses.This statement was not challenged at the time.I am not saying it was a correct statement,but I am sure someone will know one way or the other.

[Triple V]

WOW! I've heard some absolute rippers from the genetic alarmists along the old chestnut line of 'the sky is falling...the gene pool is shrinking' & at the time I thought Ken Jackson & his hired gun genetics talkin' guy were already on scientifically shakey ground and I said the same to anyone who'd listen...but geeze, you reckon that Dobby said they were breeding Mongoloid horses in the USA? :confused::confused::confused:. That should have been accompanied by the music from the opening credits of 'The Twilight Zone' :eek::eek::eek: and the dulcet tones of the late, great Rod Serling.

[dizzy]

[VVV] Ahuh. Dot...please if you would now cite so much a single case of either of those diseases ever occurring in the Standardbred?
While you're at it could you please also cite even a single case of any other genetically inherited disease...anything at all which can be directly & conclusively attributable to the Breeding Industry line breeding to a specific sire and/or group of sires.

It would appear VVV that you are afflicted with your own genetic mutation as possibly the result of indiscriminate breeding in your own heritage, or as the result of a spontaneous mutation that interfers with your ability to read and comprehend as the questions you ask have already been answered in a previous post.

[dizzy]

I know that I am treading on very,very shaky ground entering this discussion as I am so totally not with the breeding industry,but I am sure that my recollection of an interview with the owner of Christian Cullen, about why they were going to the States, was because the industry there had become so inbred that they were actually breeding Mongoloid horses.This statement was not challenged at the time.I am not saying it was a correct statement,but I am sure someone will know one way or the other.

Ron I don't know what Ian said but it would not surprise me if a lay person such as Ian interpreted what the experts said and articulated it in the fashion that you describe.It's a somewhat course way of stating it but in essence is on the money.

Despite what VVV claims the gene pool in the US, and Australia is shrinking. 10 years after John Wallace started the trotting register in 1870 odd there were over 16000 stallions and 30000 mares in it recorded as standard. In North America there are around 900 stallions today and in Australia around 300 being used for breeding. Each stallion does not serve equal numbers of mares with a large number of stallions serving as little as one mare. The mare population numbers around 30000 in total I believe. Proffesor Groves in his book classic families identified around 3000 foundation mare families in the USA, there are only around 300 active today with the remainder being extinct. I don't know if some one has done the numbers for the southern hemisphere but a similar trend could be expected.


In todays North American standardbred due to popularity of certain lines and the loss/culling of others the herd is very heavily populated with the descendants of the most popular stallions, Abercrombie largely through his sons Artsplace and to a lessor degree Life Sign and Albert Albert and of course there are others. As VVV points out the Meadow Skipper lines is very hidely spread through out the population but most of it through the descendents of his most successful sire son Most Happy Fella and then through his son Cam Fella and grandson No Nukes and their very successful sire sons. In other words the breed is becoming very heavy infused with the blood of relatively few horses.

Despite what VVV thinks inbreeding depression is real and encroaching on our herd. The most common characteristics of inbreeding depression are a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system. For those that don't believe me or believe that these things result from inbreeding/intense line breeding go and ask a cattle or sheep farmer who breeds for the meat market. They are very aware of it as size is a critical function of the profitability of their industry, unlike ours.

As to Christian Cullen he has no Abercrombie blood, no Cam Fella blood and no No Nukes blood thus his importance in opening up the gene pool some in North America. Unfortunately he wasn't extensively used. Now despite what VVV thinks inbreeding does increase the risk of a genetic mutation happening, or it can just happen spontaneously. The end result is if it was a mutation that caused a very negative outcome in the herd such as the diseases I mentioned previously, and there are a least 4 more in Quarter horses, 6 in Arabians and another bunch in coloured horses. Just because it hasn't happened to us yet doesn't mean it cant. Perhaps it already has, many of the genetic diseases in the other breeds cause late term abortions and early death in foals. The quarter horses and arabians know because both breed registries contribute large sums to genetic research. To the best of my knowledge we don't contribute any money to genetic research, we just have people like VVV lamenting the low live foal percentages each year. Heres where VVV says but its still simalar to years ago, it is but how much has neo natal foal nursing improved?

Not all genetic mutations are unfavourable to the breed though. Just to prove to the likes of VVV that it can happen, remember Art Majors white colt in North America early last year and Courage under Fires near white colt this season. Both of those are the result of a spontaneous gene mutation, which in this case just makes them a pretty colour. If either were to stand at stud then we could expect a number of their foals to also have the mutation and be white or near white in colour.

And of course if it wern't for the DMRT3 mutation we wouldn't have a breed or an industry.

VVV just because there hasn't been a horrendous disease show up yet does not mean that it cant, I am sorry that there isn't a 101 version for dummies written yet on this stuff because then perhaps you would better understand.

[Triple V]

It would appear VVV that you are afflicted with your own genetic mutation as possibly the result of indiscriminate breeding in your own heritage, or as the result of a spontaneous mutation that interfers with your ability to read and comprehend as the questions you ask have already been answered in a previous post.

[VVV] Those Mens Jeans are riding up again eh?

[Triple V]

Ron I don't know what Ian said but it would not surprise me if a lay person such as Ian interpreted what the experts said and articulated it in the fashion that you describe.It's a somewhat course way of stating it but in essence is on the money.

Despite what VVV claims the gene pool in the US, and Australia is shrinking. 10 years after John Wallace started the trotting register in 1870 odd there were over 16000 stallions and 30000 mares in it recorded as standard. In North America there are around 900 stallions today and in Australia around 300 being used for breeding. Each stallion does not serve equal numbers of mares with a large number of stallions serving as little as one mare. The mare population numbers around 30000 in total I believe. Proffesor Goves in his book classic families identified around 3000 foundation mare families in the USA, there are only around 300 active today with the remainder being extinct. I don't know if some one has done the numbers for the southern hemisphere but a similar trend could be expected.


In todays North American standardbred due to popularity of certain lines and the loss/culling of others the herd is very heavily populated with the descendants of the most popular stallions, Abercrombie largely through his sons Artsplace and to a lessor degree Life Sign and Albert Albert and of course there are others. As VVV points out the Meadow Skipper lines is very hidely spread through out the population but most of it through the descendents of his most successful sire son Most Happy Fella and then through his son Cam Fella and grandson No Nukes and their very successful sire sons. In other words the breed is becoming very heavy infused with the blood of relatively few horses.

Despite what VVV thinks inbreeding depression is real and encroaching on our herd. The most common characteristics of inbreeding depression are a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system. For those that don't believe me or believe that these things result from inbreeding/intense line breeding go and ask a cattle or sheep farmer who breeds for the meat market. They are very aware of it as size is a critical function of the profitability of their industry, unlike ours.

As to Christian Cullen he has no Abercrombie blood, no Cam Fella blood and no No Nukes blood thus his importance in opening up the gene pool some in North America. Unfortunately he wasn't extensively used. Now despite what VVV thinks inbreeding does increase the risk of a genetic mutation happening, or it can just happen spontaneously. The end result is if it was a mutation that caused a very negative outcome in the herd such as the diseases I mentioned previously, and there are a least 4 more in Quarter horses, 6 in Arabians and another bunch in coloured horses. Just because it hasn't happened to us yet doesn't mean it cant. Perhaps it already has, many of the genetic diseases in the other breeds cause late term abortions and early death in foals. The quarter horses and arabians know because both breed registries contribute large sums to genetic research. To the best of my knowledge we don't contribute any money to genetic research, we just have people like VVV lamenting the low live foal percentages each year. Heres where VVV says but its still simalar to years ago, it is but how much has neo natal foal nursing improved?

Not all genetic mutations are unfavourable to the breed though. Just to prove to the likes of VVV that it can happen, remember Art Majors white colt in North America earlier in the year and Courage under Fires near white colt this season. Both of those are the result of a spontaneous gene mutation, which in this case just makes them a pretty colour. If either were to stand at stud then we could expect a number of their foals to also have the mutation and be white or near white in colour.

And of course if it wern't for the DMRT3 mutation we wouldn't have a breed or an industry.

VVV just because there hasn't been a horrendous disease show up yet does not mean that it cant, I am sorry that there isn't a 101 version for dummies written yet on this stuff because then perhaps you would better understand.

[VVV] Dot, the above amounts to 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.
You've made an excuse for Dobby apparently saying the Americans were breeding Mongoloid horses and that was one of the reasons why Christian Cullen had to go up there...the inference being to save the breed.
You've then inexplicably bemoaned the fact that over the years unsuccessful families and sirelines have been let go in favour of successful families and sirelines...fancy that eh?
You've then highlighted three aspects that you see as encroaching on our breed [a reduction in size, declining fertility and a compromised immune system.] without so much as offering up scientifically indisputable examples of same in the Standardbred and then proceeded to Chicken Little about that which has to date never happened and is most unlikely to happen, if it ever happens at all.
Following on from that you've then seen fit to twist out of all recognition my long held position on the terrible Live Foals to Mares PTIF % we have here in Australia (from memory, it is some 75% of mares PTIF, resulting in some 61-62% Live Reigstered Foals), and one where the fault lies to a very large degree with Animal Husbandry and NOT genetic issues.
Speak to the Studs, they'll tell you how bad that aspect is...and in a private moment many of those involved with the various State based Breeders Associations tell you the same.
Undaunted by reality and facts you then turned that Straw Man into a Dot powered rail against that which is not in fact happening.????
Go check the HRA Sires Fertility Stats for yourself if you don't believe me. You'll find the page format & the information displayed there is that which I pushed hard for years and went out of my way to have redesigned & with the Breeders Panel support ultimately succeeded in doing so...so that it actually clearly reflected BOTH a Sire's ability to get Mares in foal and then properly attributed subsequent losses to the Mares side of the equation, aka the aforementioned Animal Husbandry issues.
Incidentally, you totally failed to take into account the advent and widespread adoption of Semen Transport having somewhat of a negative effect on overall fertility...i.e. more mares will go on foal more often when they're served on farm as opposed to being spread across the length and breadth of the Sthn Hemisphere.

If your Mens Jeans keep riding up and chaffing you Dot, no need to get all bent out of shape and aim up at me. I don't work for Levi's.

[dizzy]

[VVV] The really hilarious aspect to the above statement Dot is that of the half dozen or so yearlings bred 2x3, 2x4, 3x2 etc to Artsplace that are set to sell in the upcoming APG Sales, 4 or 5 are being offered by 3 of Australia's leading/most successful Breeders. Imagine that?

That would be the same breeders who offered up the majority of lots in the 2009 APG premium sale in Melbourne would it VVV? You know the premium sale where the best bred lots were sold right? You know, the sale where only 20% of yearlings had managed to win back their purchase price by the end of their 3yo season.

[dizzy]

VVV what makes the standardbred immune from the problems that can beset other breeds and infact other species? Next you'll be calling for the laws on incest and marrying first cousins be repealed.

[Triple V]

Next you'll be calling for the laws on incest and marrying first cousins be repealed.

[VVV] It was obviously legal back when your folks got together.

[Triple V]

That would be the same breeders who offered up the majority of lots in the 2009 APG premium sale in Melbourne would it VVV? You know the premium sale where the best bred lots were sold right? You know, the sale where only 20% of yearlings had managed to win back their purchase price by the end of their 3yo season.

[VVV] Dot, on all matters Standardbred reproductive they'd individually and collectively take you to school any day of the week and twice of a Sunday.
They are not numbered amongst this Country's leading, most successful, most respected Breeders for nothing. Long term breeding/financial success in a totally unforgiving section of what is already a very tough Industry overall, simply does not come the way of fools.
If I end my days on this Earth having compiled anything approaching a comparable record I will be a very happy man.

[Danno]

[VVV] It was obviously legal back when your folks got together.

Jamie, I'm surprised that almost an hour has gone by and you have not deleted that.

[mary]

Jamie, I'm surprised that almost an hour has gone by and you have not deleted that.


VVV has gone too far their Dan, lets just hope he has the decency to retract it.

[eliteblood]

That would be the same breeders who offered up the majority of lots in the 2009 APG premium sale in Melbourne would it VVV? You know the premium sale where the best bred lots were sold right? You know, the sale where only 20% of yearlings had managed to win back their purchase price by the end of their 3yo season.

Give us a clue. Who are we talking about ?

[Triple V]

Dan, Mary, you need to get some perspective.

If it's Ok for Dot to make a disgraceful statement such as this....


Next you'll be calling for the laws on incest and marrying first cousins be repealed.

...then she can only expect the serve to be returned.
It was actually quite a restrained reply compared to that which initially came to mind.
Delete or retract what I said? No way known.

[Triple V]

Jesus Trevor, do you have to go and poke the sleeping dog?
Let the bugger lie there, please.:p

[Danno]

Dan, Mary, you need to get some perspective.

If it's Ok for Dot to make a disgraceful statement such as this....



...then she can only expect the serve to be returned.
It was actually quite a restrained reply compared to that which initially came to mind.
Delete or retract what I said? No way known.

Jamie, if you cant see the difference in those comments tonight, I hope you do tomorrow, because they are not even in the same paddock mate, maybe should phone a friend and get another opinion cos I reckon you are way off the mark.

[2minuteman]

Dan, Mary, you need to get some perspective.

If it's Ok for Dot to make a disgraceful statement such as this....



...then she can only expect the serve to be returned.
It was actually quite a restrained reply compared to that which initially came to mind.
Delete or retract what I said? No way known.
After the reply to my post,geez I'm tempted but a lifetime ban doesn't appeal.

[Triple V]

Ahuh.
While we're on about good & bad taste comments in posts Dan, if you would, go back & read #54 in this thread from dear old Dot, and especially so the first sentence.
You expressed no outrage on my behalf as far as I can see ? Geeze. You know, I now feel so abandoned. :rolleyes:
4BC's Gary Hardgrave has it right on the money. People being outraged on behalf of others is one of the fastest growing Industries in this Country.

[Triple V]

After the reply to my post,geez I'm tempted but a lifetime ban doesn't appeal.

[VVV] Nah, I think you'll be right Ron. Now and again JC gets Admin to rattle the chain but he needs the traffic the debates on the forum provide to his website so he can in turn charge for the advertising. He's kinda like the Don King of Harness Racing. "It's like Moses in reverse, keep my people the #&%! here in Africa, do not let them go". The almighty $ speaks all languages. :rolleyes:

[Mitch]

Jaimie & Dot,

I enjoy people expressing their opinions and engaging in robust debate but this is getting ridiculous. The beauty of opinion is that you don't have to agree. Have your say, rebut & have one more final go but after that move on and let it be.

This post has gone from a good debate on some of our most exciting future stars to sheer rubbish.

Your both extremely knowledgable people who can add a lot value to this forum - focus on that not each other.

Goodnight.

[Triple V]

Yes Dad. :rolleyes:
In an effort to get back on track somewhat...
I read a blog post recently dated December 30th, 2012, at http://b4breeding.com/ .
It is maintained by the lady in NZ who bred Tintin In America. It was along the lines of (parts of) this thread where the question of Tintin In America covering a Trump Casino mare was raised. (both being Falcon Seelster line horses).
Having bred & raised the stallion (Tintin) she then went on to say that she would not exclude Falcon Seelster mares as consorts for him and referred to a previous blog entry of October 21st, 2012 which was to the same effect. Her reasoning was interesting & to me seems to be very much in keeping with a 'deal with what your eyes tell you and not what a piece of paper says' approach...

QUOTE [Personally, I don’t think McArdle (Tintin’s sire) has a lot of Falcon Seelster influence in him. I think he may be driven by the genes he got from his dam lines rather than from his dad. The Falcon Seelster factor (his click with the family previously) was not a big factor in my selection of McArdle for Tintin’s dam Zenterfold.]

I just can't see why the same would not apply to a whole range of sires of any other line anyone may care to mention.
For example, IMO Village Jasper is very much of a Jate Lobell appearance while Safely Kept is not (this despite the fact that both are by Jate Lobell from Abercrombie mares).
Similarly Sportswriter is the most like his sire Artsplace of any son I have ever seen while the late Astreos was, for mine, more like the stock of his damsire, No Nukes.
Bettor's Delight and Four Starzzz Shark are both sons of Cam's Card Shark but physically they are about as alike as Mick Muscat & myself.
American Ideal and Rocknroll Hanover share only one thing in common, their sire Western Ideal, and again they look absolutely nothing alike.
For mine, ever since the invention of the Tesio program & the like, while they are for sure interesting and valuable tools, there has been waaaaaaaaaaay too much getting hung up on bits of paper & pretty computer screens/printouts and not nearly enough dealing with the physical appearance of the stock in play. The many and varied forms with which even full siblings can and do appear surely speaks louder than words.
When there is already a massive variation in play on a foal to foal from the same parents basis, how anyone could possibly go down the Chicken Little says the Sky is falling path is absolutely beyond me. I believe that genetic alarmist approach is utterly irresponsible & it merely serves to further cloud the picture for many Breeders rather than clearing it.

[dizzy]

Danno, Mary thank you for your concerns but I am quite happy for VVV to leave his comment there, for it says nothing about me but speaks volumes about him. Rest assured it is impossible for my parents to read it or become offended also.

Mitch I am dissapointed that you think a debate on the genetic viability of the breed is rubbish. If you are refering to my comment regarding incest then rest assured that has nothing to do with the moral issue in this instance but the science of the issue. How can VVV refer to such a comment as a disgrace yet advocate passionately on this forum in favour of incestuous matings? The taboo on such practices as incest and close relatives marrying did not come originally from the pulpit, though no doubt there has been plenty a passionate sermon on the subject delivered by many men of the cloth, but from human beings centuries ago recognising that the produce of such unions were in many instances "not quite right" and often much worse then that.

How is it that the standardbred is immune to the perils of inbreeding when no other breed or species is? Horse have over 90 genetic diseases, how can you assert without study that animal husbandry is the sole cause of low foaling rates? After all you said the stallions did their job, the mares went in foal how is it that all losses should be attributed to poor animal husbandry and not at all to a possible flaw in the genetic make up of the embryo?.

VVV I am glad that you are reading but to use a blog as the basis for your assertion that there is no danger in inbreeding if their different physical types is well absurd. Bee writes an excellant blog, I have read all the information contained on it but Bee also makes no effort to hide the fact that she is a journalist and not an expert on breeding. So you would take the writtings of a journalist over the opinion of a genetist employed by one of the US's most pre emminent breeding establishments?

Your thesis on genetic variability based on differences in physical type is flawed as you don't consider the issue of dominance. The horses you list may in fact have very similar genetic make up inherited from their sires but if the dam's genes were the dominant ones for physical appearance then they may and do appear physically very different. Art Major is a very prepontent sire of type so most of his stock are very similar in appearance, so do we take it automatically that they are the same in genotype?

As to your view that 2x2 and 3x3 breeding on the sireline is favourable to the racing prospects of the offspring here is a little fact for you to consider, along with all the other breeders who favour it. John Bradley published two books in the mid nineties containg the 101 best racehorses and sires in the breed history from around the 1940 to 1990. Not one of those 101 champions is bred 2x2 on the sireline. Not one of those sires is bred 2x3 on the sireline. There is 1 bred 3x3 on the sireline, Most Happy Fella. There are 3 trotting stallions bred 2x4 on the sire line so less 3% of the horses profiled. Add modern day examples such as Mach Three, Art Major Bettors Delight and Rocknroll Hanover the stats don't get any better. There is one sire Valley Victory that did produce his best stock to mares by Speedy Crown so on a 4x2 cross to Speedy Crown. I'm sure you see it differently VVV but all in all not a lot to recommend inbred matings on the sireline. Feel free to table your examples of champions bred in your prefered fashion.

There is something to be said however for linebred matings through sons and daughters of superior producers, that way the genes on both the x and y chromosone may recombine in a favourable fashion in the offspring. But you don't like Tesio or is it because you don't inderstand. The TB's consider him the most successful breeder of all time, but no he didn't write a 101 version for everyone to copy, nor was pedigree the sole consideration in his matings and success, you have to work at it a bit harder then that.

[Triple V]

This is without a doubt the single most interesting, most informative, cut to the chase, no bullshit article on Horse Breeding that I have ever read.
Of all things it is a Dan Liebman interview with one man, the late John Gaines, published on bloodhorse.com back in February 2005.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/26692/john-gaines-in-his-own-words

[Triple V]

mitch i am dissapointed that you think a debate on the genetic viability of the breed is rubbish. If you are refering to my comment regarding incest then rest assured that has nothing to do with the moral issue in this instance but the science of the issue. How can vvv refer to such a comment as a disgrace yet advocate passionately on this forum in favour of incestuous matings?
[vvv] dot, i suggest that you get some perspective here & try to get your facts straight before you go publicly attributing positions to me that i have not and have never taken.
it's one thing for me to suggest that imo it is not an issue (which i did) and it is another thing entirely for you to then state that i have passionately advocated same (which i quite clearly have not). Apology accepted in advance.

the taboo on such practices as incest and close relatives marrying did not come originally from the pulpit, though no doubt there has been plenty a passionate sermon on the subject delivered by many men of the cloth, but from human beings centuries ago recognising that the produce of such unions were in many instances "not quite right" and often much worse then that.
[vvv] ????....and all that off topic is applicable/relevant to the breeding of performance horses because...?

how is it that the standardbred is immune to the perils of inbreeding when no other breed or species is?
[vvv] dot, for starters here's where you run into a significant terminology error.
inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line. Anything else is effectively linebreeding, even as close as it may be...however it is not inbreeding as such.

horse have over 90 genetic diseases, how can you assert without study that animal husbandry is the sole cause of low foaling rates?
[vvv] there's another terminology issue here. not low foaling rates.
rather low live foal registrations. there is a huge difference to be had dot.
from the point of mares being declared ptif through to the point where their resultant foals are registered we (aus) annually lose around about 12%.
the stallions are getting mares in foal on average at around a 72-73% hit rate annually. If by whatever means we somehow managed to get that up to 80% or so we will never do better given the widespead adoption of semen transport here in aus. the problem at hand is that we annually only register 61-62% live foals from all mares served. Not all of that is attributable to husbandry issues but an overwhelming proportion of it most certainly is. Ring a few of the studs and ask them yourself. They will tell you some horror stories. It is a major problem.
the troops manning the various state breeders associations will, in a private moment, tell you the same...as for that matter will the hra breeders panel & the associated groups.

after all you said the stallions did their job, the mares went in foal how is it that all losses should be attributed to poor animal husbandry and not at all to a possible flaw in the genetic make up of the embryo?.
[vvv] further to my reply directly above, that's the first line of defence & a very effective one too. It's how nature rids itself of a lot of that which was not meant to be & without doubt that occurs every season & with every breed of horse but it is by no means widespread.
being moderately to poorly cared for & being left to foal alone & unassisted in a paddock out the back of whoop whoop followed up by often limited to zero post foaling care is not a genetic aspect however. That sort of thing accounts for the vast majority of losses. As i said, don't believe me. Ring the studs and ask them.
vvv i am glad that you are reading but to use a blog as the basis for your assertion that there is no danger in inbreeding if their different physical types is well absurd.
[vvv] trust your eyes and your observance of the physical attributes of that which is stands in front of you, not bits of paper.
save significant environmental interference, for the purposes of horse breeding it is more than reasonable to suggest that their phenotype is representative of their genotype. I learnt that in high school biology btw.

bee writes an excellant blog, i have read all the information contained on it but bee also makes no effort to hide the fact that she is a journalist and not an expert on breeding.
[vvv] there is no such thing as an expert on breeding.
if there were, said persons would have all the good horses. There are however some keen and insightful observations which serve to fill in a few pieces of the puzzle from time to time. Bee's observations are right there amongst them, no question imo.

so you would take the writtings of a journalist over the opinion of a genetist employed by one of the us's most pre emminent breeding establishments?
[vvv] dot, seriously. The genetics talkin' guy was in the paid employ of the crew there. Do you think he will ever come out and disagree? C'mon. If you couldn't read that push from ken jackson & his man re: Christian cullen for what it really was then geeze... it was very much like the greens carbon tax push.
create a fear of that which is not actually there and then offer up salvation. It's a legitamet advertising tactic i guess... But that makes it no more correct. They've got their own cc up there anyway now. Somebeachsomewhere.

your thesis on genetic variability based on differences in physical type is flawed as you don't consider the issue of dominance. The horses you list may in fact have very similar genetic make up inherited from their sires but if the dam's genes were the dominant ones for physical appearance then they may and do appear physically very different.
[vvv] all either of us can do, all any of us can do is make our judgements based initially on the phenotypes that we are presented with and then followed by subsequent observations of the style/type of foals that they then produce when they are bred to given styles/types of mares.
as i said above, save significant environmental interference, for the purposes of horse breeding it is reasonable to suggest that their phenotype is representative of their genotype.

art major is a very prepontent sire of type so most of his stock are very similar in appearance, so do we take it automatically that they are the same in genotype?
[vvv] prepotency by definition is the ability of an individual to essentially over ride the other parent in a mating & produce progeny which resemble or carry the features of that individual, in art major's case his phenotype and seeing as how phenotype can be reasonably said to represent genotype, well...i've said it twice already. Prepotency can also exist in a dominant or a recessive form depending on the trait involved and it need not neccessarily be a desirable thing that a given horse is prepotent for, a sire that is prepotent for passing on his bad feet or his crap temperament for example.

as to your view that 2x2 and 3x3 breeding on the sireline is favourable to the racing prospects of the offspring
[vvv] i don't recall ever saying that it was a favourable thing either dot...but why would you stop putting words in my mouth now? why depart from your now time-honoured game plan? what i recall as having suggested was is there such a thing as too much of a good thing or along those lines. Please feel free to cite an example that says otherwise.

here is a little fact for you to consider, along with all the other breeders who favour it. John bradley published two books in the mid nineties containg the 101 best racehorses and sires in the breed history from around the 1940 to 1990. Not one of those 101 champions is bred 2x2 on the sireline. Not one of those sires is bred 2x3 on the sireline. There is 1 bred 3x3 on the sireline, most happy fella. There are 3 trotting stallions bred 2x4 on the sire line so less 3% of the horses profiled. Add modern day examples such as mach three, art major bettors delight and rocknroll hanover the stats don't get any better. There is one sire valley victory that did produce his best stock to mares by speedy crown so on a 4x2 cross to speedy crown. I'm sure you see it differently vvv but all in all not a lot to recommend inbred matings on the sireline. Feel free to table your examples of champions bred in your prefered fashion.
[vvv] that's a chicken and egg scenario if ever i saw one dot.
for reasons mostly commerical, a lot of which has to do with the chicken little, the sky is falling brigade and not as a result of any significant grasp of genetics, by and large people don't try it to begin with so therefore there are no yearlings bred that way so they don't show up in the stats. Owners of pacing fillies have the same problem in nsw getting a start against their own sex. The races are not programmed so the fillies aren't nominated and the fillies aren't nominated so the races aren't programmed. Similarly, it proves absolutely nothing.

there is something to be said however for linebred matings through sons and daughters of superior producers, that way the genes on both the x and y chromosone may recombine in a favourable fashion in the offspring.
[vvv] by what you've explained as your definition of inbreeding that would actually be inbreeding and not line breeding.
to suggest that it's inbreeding just because it's taking place up close but that is linebreeding because it's a bit further back is absurd. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


but you don't like tesio or is it because you don't inderstand.
[vvv] tesio the pc program to which i referred allows those who do not fully appreciate the nature of inheritance to over simplify and then pigeon hole that which is way, way more complex. it also serves to create an over reliance on pretty screens & printouts in place of actually looking at the physical attributes of sire and dam and acting accordingly.

the tb's consider him the most successful breeder of all time, but no he didn't write a 101 version for everyone to copy, nor was pedigree the sole consideration in his matings and success, you have to work at it a bit harder then that.
[vvv] tesio the breeder was a very smart man who must be somewhere absolutely laughing himself silly at all the people who have taken every word he said as breeding gospel. The fact is he put out just as much misinformation as he ever did actual information.



vvv

[dizzy]

This is without a doubt the single most interesting, most informative, cut to the chase, no bullshit article on Horse Breeding that I have ever read.
Of all things it is a Dan Liebman interview with one man, the late John Gaines, published on bloodhorse.com back in February 2005.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/26692/john-gaines-in-his-own-words

Yep filed this one in between Samuel Riddle and Bull Hancock in my library last time you posted it. VVV You'd be surprised how many books there are in the series great breeders and their methods. I have pretty much read all of them and then some and their is a vast difference in the thinking between the commercial breeders who are largely proprieters of stallion stations and those breeders who bred their own stock to race. In essence the stallion station proprieters where great marketers and business men more so then breeders, they owned very few broodmares themselves attracting mostly a very wealthy cliental who basicly hung off every word the salemans told them and paid up front for syndicated stallion shares. I wouldn't actually call any of these men great breeders despite their apparent success but I would certainly call them absolutely outstanding businessmen. The other group who were wealthy through means other then the horses owned far more broodmares themselves and selectively stood stallions at stud or used stallions that complemented their mares, or purchased mares to suit their own stallions, these were by far the more successfull breeders. Gainesway farm was a stallion farm, and John Gaines comments accordingly. And there were huge tax deductions in the days that the stallion farms were born for the wealthy to invest in breeding racehorses.

[dizzy]

Triple VVV you would be surprised at the similarity between the horse and human genome. Many of the genetic diseases found in horses have a parallel in humans or would that be vice versa perhaps. I've been looking for your definition of inbreeding since the last time you posted it, still cant find it so perhaps you could post a reference for it this time? I didn't do high school biology. Are you saying it is only inbreeding if you combine the mitachrondial dna which is exclusively tail female of course. If Life Sign had been mated to Lisheen that would not be inbred right?

I've no doubt VVV that a flaw in human dna leads to foal losses but has it occured to you that some of those foals maybe cant be saved? Whilst no doubt our interventions could be better do you really think its got worse in recent years from those days of no foaling alarms at all and most mares foaled down with the
cows. I have to disagree VVV a mare not able to foal down without intervention or a foal unable to survive without intervention is very much a genetic aspect. You know mother nature, survival of the fittest stuff. These mares if left to natures way would be culled from the herd thus leaving a herd which could for the most part but not exclusively so foal down without difficulty. Same for all those crooked legged foals who through surgical intervention acquire sufficiently straight legs to at some time in the future contribute their flawed genes to the gene pool.

You'll have to show me where it was that I said prepotency was guaranteed to be a good thing.

As to breeding 2x3 and 3x3 on the sire line I'll swear you laughed at me on a recent post because Australia top breeders were doing it? And then you said you'd die a happy man if you could emulate them? And now you say your not in favour of it? And now there are no yearlings bred like it in 50 odd years so thats why there cant be any good ones? Come on VVV only a few months ago you were passionately listing all the successfull 3x3 cross on the sire line to Cam Fella to put me in my place, remember around breeders challenge final time? You know awarding your friend who lives in a cave on the gold coast a nostradamus award? (sorry VVV's friend if your reading this because I truely am awful at remembering names, I don't mean to offend) Give me a break VVV make up your mind.

Sorry VVV you have completely lost me with your definition of my apparent definition of line and inbreeding. Your American Ideal/ Talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

If you say so VVV about the tesio program, frankly I thought our leading breeders were smarter then that especially since you wish to emulate them but hey you actually could be right here, a quick perusal of the variety of mating choices for many mares that have had several foals shows a very wide selection of stallions used with regard to phenotype and genotype. Of course if you breed for the sales that is absolutely the right thing because the definition of well bred is whats going to be popular at the sale based on proven behaviour patterns of buyers.

Tesio was a very smart man and yes he was prone to mischief at times but the key to understanding his genius wasn't in what he said or wrote but what he did.

[dizzy]

Links to make it easier re above if anyone is interested.

Life Sign

http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Pedigree.aspx?HorseID=10010941

Lisheen

http://www.classicfamilies.net/CF/Pedigree.aspx?HorseID=10035467

American Ideal/Talilia

http://www.testmating.com/woo/SeePedigree.aspx?MareID=50028404&StallionID=50026780

[Triple V]

i didn't do high school biology.
[vvv] that's abundantly obvious.

i've no doubt vvv that a flaw in human dna leads to foal losses but has it occured to you that some of those foals maybe cant be saved?
[vvv]human dna ??????????

whilst no doubt our interventions could be better do you really think its got worse in recent years from those days of no foaling alarms at all and most mares foaled down with the cows.
[vvv] my feeling is that it has gotten somewhat worse in recent years simply because the paradigm of the breeding industy has changed.
semen transport sees a whole lot of mares domiciled, bred and foaled down 'off farm' and so in a great many cases away from the knowledgable assistance that would otherwise have been forthcoming to them had they foaled down 'on farm' as in at a stud farm. None of that has any genetic basis to it whatsoever.

i have to disagree vvv a mare not able to foal down without intervention or a foal unable to survive without intervention is very much a genetic aspect. You know mother nature, survival of the fittest stuff. These mares if left to natures way would be culled from the herd thus leaving a herd which could for the most part but not exclusively so foal down without difficulty.
[vvv] that's abject crap dot.
i've had mares that have had 4-5 foals and knocked them out like gum ball machines without any need for assistance whatsoever go on to have 1 more, get it in the wrong position and duly need help.
generally those that foal down easy previously are a reasonable chance to do so again but it is by no means a bankable thing.


same for all those crooked legged foals who through surgical intervention acquire sufficiently straight legs to at some time in the future contribute their flawed genes to the gene pool.
[vvv] for mine that's just plain wrong. Mares with legs that required sa urgical correction shortly after birth do not automatically pass on those same issues in their foals, nor for that matter do sires. (Those are congenital issues.)
you suggesting that in itself shows how much you know of this subject from the practical, real world aspect.
as it happens one of the much discussed sires in this thread was surgically corrected as a foal and you've recently been cheering his conformation and ability to pass it on to his offspring. Oooops.

you'll have to show me where it was that i said prepotency was guaranteed to be a good thing.
[vvv] you didn't. I merely added that it can have a flipside. My apologies for trying to add some perspective. :p

as to breeding 2x3 and 3x3 on the sire line i'll swear you laughed at me on a recent post because australia top breeders were doing it?
[vvv] no, i merely highlighted the fact that wiser heads than yours and mine seemed to think it was not an issue.

and then you said you'd die a happy man if you could emulate them?
[vvv] their long record of success in the toughest part of an already difficult to make $ in industry, yes...or something along those lines.

and now you say your not in favour of it?
[vvv] i am neither in strongly in favour nor strongly against.
i'm merely replying and questioning the validity of your position that it is the wrong thing to do. I certainly don't see it as anywhere near as big an issue as you do.

and now there are no yearlings bred like it in 50 odd years so thats why there cant be any good ones? [vvv] chicken and egg. I've explained this already.

come on vvv only a few months ago you were passionately listing all the successfull 3x3 cross on the sire line to cam fella to put me in my place, remember around breeders challenge final time? You know awarding your friend who lives in a cave on the gold coast a nostradamus award? (sorry vvv's friend if your reading this because i truely am awful at remembering names, i don't mean to offend) give me a break vvv make up your mind.
[vvv] paul ellis is his name. He is one of the apg directors from qld.
i guess he noticed it with pb bullville being bred to fake left mares up his way.
no sooner had he mentioned it than along came quite a few smart ones bred exactly that way, which i then highlighted for your perousal. Bitobliss is one as i recall. I'll list them all again tomorrow for you if you like.

sorry vvv you have completely lost me with your definition of my apparent definition of line and inbreeding.
[vvv] read it a few times. It'll sink it. that which a lot of horsepeople refer to as being inbred is not in fact inbred at all, rather linebred, close as it may be. I've said this numerous times before in different threads on this and in other forums but it suits your purposes to take issue with it now so fire away. You'll just get the same answer.

your american ideal/ talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?
[vvv] keen observations of sire and dam combined with a lot of good feed and care and bit of good fortune leading to an outstanding individual. That's him in my avatar incidentally.

if you say so vvv about the tesio program, frankly i thought our leading breeders were smarter then that especially since you wish to emulate them but hey you actually could be right here, a quick perusal of the variety of mating choices for many mares that have had several foals shows a very wide selection of stallions used with regard to phenotype and genotype. [vvv] you've lost me there.

of course if you breed for the sales that is absolutely the right thing because the definition of well bred is whats going to be popular at the sale based on proven behaviour patterns of buyers.
[vvv] the magic trick is to get both in the same package. Hard to do. That which is the best for your mare is not always that which is the best to sell.

tesio was a very smart man and yes he was prone to mischief at times but the key to understanding his genius wasn't in what he said or wrote but what he did.
[vvv] i continually try to educate myself on such matters but i am afraid i can't spreak to that. I'll have to take your word for it.



vvv

[dizzy]

VVV you may have done biology at high school but what about English comprehension? There were a number of direct questions in my post and it would appear that you have missed them all. So as you have listed your occupation as educating dot could you please please answer them if I list them out for you. You know for my education and all.

1/ What was the name of your Biology teacher? (ok that one wasn't there before)

2/ VVV said "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line." Please Please can you provide references for this because I really really cant find it?

3/ Is Life Sign over Lisheen an inbred mating?

4/Your American Ideal/ Talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

Its only four little questions VVV, why don't you give it a shot?


Ps I did physics and chemistry with all the other nerds. And congenital faults have three causes, sporadic, environmental and genetic. Genetic ones can be passed on. Dominant ones directly, and recessive ones are exposed more frequently as an inbred/linebred herd becomes increasingly homozygous.

[Triple V]

vvv you may have done biology at high school but what about english comprehension?
[vvv] english teachers fondly remembered were john mazur & richard hazelwood-ross. Both great blokes. John ended up at geelong grammar i think and the last i heard richard went down south to tumbi umbi. Got a love of the written and spoken word from both of them. Would love to catch up with one or either of them again.

there were a number of direct questions in my post and it would appear that you have missed them all.
[vvv] you have seen through my clever plan. Well it was trevor's idea actually. He suggested that i ignore them but you know i can't do that dot.
we were made for each other. What night did you want to go to that little gelato place at concord? :p

so as you have listed your occupation as educating dot could you please please answer them if i list them out for you. You know for my education and all.
[vvv] i'll do my best.

1/ what was the name of your biology teacher? (ok that one wasn't there before)

[vvv] his name was keith. he and his wife used to breed lhasa apso's & he had a small farm just out of bathurst. We used to go out to his place sometimes on the weekend & had some great fun dropping bungers down the bore hole.
a very smart man, great teacher, really inspiring, one of the few over the years who were.

2/ vvv said "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line." please please can you provide references for this because i really really cant find it?
[vvv] you're just not looking hard enough dot. Go on. Unleash your inner blood hound and track it down. I'm cheering for you. It's there. No clues...that would be taking away the thrill of the chase & you need that to keep you sharp.:p

3/ is life sign over lisheen an inbred mating?
[vvv] dot, that is both an extreme & far from real world example you've ponied up there. at the very outset of this whole saga, i believe we 'were' discussing the merits of 2x3's, and (as you saw it) the perils of breeding a son of artsplace to a mare by another son of artsplace with 'the breed increasingly saturated with it' and all. Personally, i still can't for the life of me see the issue but please, move the goal post to a ridiculous position as per above by all means.

4/your american ideal/ talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

[vvv] geeze, you're putting me on the spot now dot.
i'm honestly not given to describing them in this fashion because i think it's an often misleading over simplification of that which is more complex... However in the spirit of keeping the debate alive, i'll give it a shot.
american ideal has quite a unique on paper pedigree in that he is bred 4x3 to full sisters (angel hair & ambiguity) on the damline of his sire, western ideal, and also of his dam, lifetime success.
for my own purposes i call that sort of arrangement 'family over family' for want of a better term....that as opposed to using the term 'inbred' to describe that, which some may admittedly contest that he is, while others maybe not so much.
(btw, artistic fella is also bred 'family over family', in his case 2 x 2 to half sisters or 3x3 to easy to easy to love, whatever takes your fancy i guess). Getting back to american ideal, he is also obviously linebred 6x5x4x4x4 to meadow skipper.
talilia, well the only thing that stands out to me is that she is linebred 2x3 to full siblings lismore & bg's bunny otherwise she is pretty wide open.
as an aside, her dam, irish town, temperament wise had a mind of her own and was a horseman's horse. Lismore, the dam of albert albert, was also somewhat of a pain in the arse in that respect. This has shown up in talilia as she also has her quirks at time. The flipside is that she leaves really lovely foals. her & i don't get on all that well actually. Nathan has her worked out better than anyone btw.

its only four little questions vvv, why don't you give it a shot?
[vvv] indeed. More than happy to keep rolling along with all this dot if you so desire. i can always use the mental calisthenics, especially so when my wife is away on business and the kids are home on school holidays. I can only take just so much sponge bob before i begin to hear squidward's voice in my sleep.
discussion & debate is also said by some sections of the medical community to greatly aid in staving off early onset alzheimer's. Did i mention that my wife was away? Do you like gelato? :rolleyes:

ps i did physics and chemistry with all the other nerds.
[vvv] did you sit up the back and carve your initials in the desk with the sharp end of your compass? I did that in maths. Thank god for accounts & clever wives who's fathers were bank managers lest those such as myself end up in the soup line at the matthew talbot hostel.

and congenital faults have three causes, sporadic, environmental and genetic.
[vvv] some have a far greater level of occurence and of severity than others too i believe. I found a few good pieces in a book entitled horse genetics by ann t. Bowling.

quote [ a congenital abnormality is a defect of structure or function evident at birth, not neccessarily caused by defective genes]

quote [most known genetic diseases of horses do not become evident for months or even years]

quote [chromosomal and simple single gene issues are ultimately the easiest to document and understand but are rarely seen. Polygenic traits, produced by the interaction of several genes, are more likely to be the source of commonly observed defects such as those of conformation]

interesting.

genetic ones can be passed on. Dominant ones directly, and recessive ones are exposed more frequently as an inbred/linebred herd becomes increasingly homozygous.
[vvv] sounds good in theory but in real world practice i believe that there are very few dominant genetic diseases that ever get passed on (save those quarter horse ones you mentioned before which a mate tells me are not in fact or need not be lethal as they can be treated successfully with medication & mananged with fspecial eed regimes etc) & hat is simply because by definition dominant genetic diseases are effectivly going to self limit within a couple of generations. If the disease is serious enough it will ultimately severely limit the reproductive careers of and/or kill off its bearer/s.
that's where imo dot you are going over the top somewhat with the spectre of genetic diseases hysteria. They are, in the vast majority of instances, extremely self limiting. They are the by and large the architects of their own demise if you like. They kill themselves off. Ain't nature grand sometimes? ;)



vvv

[mary]

Jaimie, your American Ideal fella is a big strong type, good luck with the APG sales.

[mary]

Mitch, good luck with Gamechanger Tue, hope all goes well with his return.

[Triple V]

Jaimie, your American Ideal fella is a big strong type, good luck with the APG sales.

[VVV] Cheers Mary. He's already very forward/mature for his age & will go early, obviously a good thing APG Sales wise. If you're around out there on the 1st or 2nd then drop by & have a look at him. Matt will have him all polished and at his best.
Interestingly, his full sister (a current foal) looks like she is going to be a bit taller & maybe a shade longer in the barrel than him which suprised me but it might be as bit of an optical illusion because she is a lot finer built too. Anyone who wants to have come out and take a look at the foals is also welcome to & yes, that includes you Dot. I'll even shout Coffees & Muffins at the Outback Pie Shop in Windsor. Shop around, you can't beat that deal. ;)

[dizzy]

Go on VVV humour me, why is Life Sign over Lisheen not a real world example, one is male, the other female, and foaled a year apart and you've said that it would only be inbreeding if they were from the same maternal family didn't you? Guess you'll say next the owners don't like each other.

So in your "family over family" assesment of American Ideal does that make him inbred because that is the same imediate dam line, or does it need to be, seeings you've mentioned it, as close as Artistic Fella"s "family over family" arrangement?

VVV wouldn't be interested of course but since Leon Rasmussen and Romy Faversham published in the 1999 a book called "Inbreeding to Superior Females" that pedigree configuration has been known as Rasmussen Factor Formula One pattern because horses breed this way were often very fast. Rasmussen and Faversham were TB pedigree analysts, but John H Wallace the original creator of the trotting register had made the same observations some hundred years earlier.

Tell All is another example of the formula one pedigree.

So Talilia is linebred not inbred, don't two full siblings have the same maternal lines? Just trying to get a handle on your claims about only inbred if from the same maternal family?

Keep reading VVV you just might get how congenital defects/conformation faults occur and possibly reoccur. In the mean time on top of the reading I have done I have a real world friend and farrier who has spend his last twenty plus springs correcting faults in the foal crops of the two major TB studs in the hawkesbury (and more recently his SO STB foals). These are now regularly the 3rd and 4th generations of these families he has seen, and it has got to the point where in most instances just by knowing which mare the foal is out of he already knows what the defects will be. Don't believe me, He's been around long enough to know Rob Van Dyke well when Rob was a farrier, ask Rob who his daughter went annd greeted at ABEC the other day.

You aren't in the real world VVV, if a horse has two copies of a dominant gene then it will ALWAYS pass one on, If it has one copy of the dominant gene then it will pass it on 50% of the time but in each instance a horse that receives a copy of the gene it will exhibit the disease. There are in excess of 380,000 horse with HYPP doesn't sound very self limiting does it. Yes this one can be managed some by diet (low potassium) but why don't you ask a human sufferer then perhaps you'd understand why you wouldn't want to breed a horse with it. There is no cure for HERDA and most horses have died or been euthanised as a result before they are 5 years of age.

The problem with sticking your head in the sand with regard to what may happen VVV means that you don't know the sky is falling until a piece of it has hit you on the butt!


VVV said & quote "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line" I"ll ask you again to provide a reference for this because without one it clearly has as much accuracy as this-

[VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.

Remember where that got you?

Thanks for the invite but my dance card is kinda full.