Acceptances for Menangle

[mark diegutis]

Can anyone shed any light on why acceptances were not taken for Menangle today . Saturday or Friday night fields come out every Monday and the meeting isn't extended .

[aussiebreno]

I see only seven programmed races held up. Possibly a lack of noms for an 8th race and they are searching around for a few horses to add an 8th race? Not sure.

[mark diegutis]

Thanks for that but the acceptances were final at 12pm today & they had enough horses to fill 8 races . The meetings not on the extended list . You can always see whos in if extended .

[Danno]

Possibly related to this? If numbers were a bit light on then the numbers from Luke may have made the difference?

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=97742

[p plater]

There are 9 horses in on Saturday night who don't have a trainer.......Here comes another Stink for consistency in applying standards

[mark diegutis]

There are 9 horses in on Saturday night who don't have a trainer.......Here comes another Stink for consistency in applying standards

In all my time in harness racing I have never seen this before . Is it possible that there is an injunction against the decision and that the fields stand until it is presided over . Surley they would have been scratched if they were nominated under LM's licence number ? If they were nominated under his wifes name then her name would appear .

[Tangles]

If nominated under a trainer's name who consequently is DQ then surely the board should not accept the nomination???

[jimmy777]

I would think that HRNSW policy on DISQUALIFICATIONS – TRANSFER OF HORSES is being read by many at the moment!!

http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files/Policies/636.0%20-%20Disqualifications%20-%20Transfer%20of%20Horses.pdf

[mightymo]

The horses were all originally nominated under B.McCarthy. After Luke was disaqualified today, HRNSW said they were not convinced that this could work and said that a decision will be made by the Board on Monday on whether B.Mccarthy can take over training duties.

As nominations had already been taken, HRNSW decided to draw those horses into the field and to contact all owners of those horses and give them 2 options:

1. scratch without penalty; or
2. transfer the horse to and Race with a completely different trainer

[gregcattell]

check out melton friday

[mark diegutis]

The horses were all originally nominated under B.McCarthy. After Luke was disaqualified today, HRNSW said they were not convinced that this could work and said that a decision will be made by the Board on Monday on whether B.Mccarthy can take over training duties.

As nominations had already been taken, HRNSW decided to draw those horses into the field and to contact all owners of those horses and give them 2 options:

1. scratch without penalty; or
2. transfer the horse to and Race with a completely different trainer

Thanks Harvey . That answers alot of questions . HRNSW have done a very good job then . That gives everyone concerned a completely fair go . Thankfully for you HRV have looked at it differently and accepted B.McCarthy's nominations . Good luck

[p plater]

I would think that HRNSW policy on DISQUALIFICATIONS – TRANSFER OF HORSES is being read by many at the moment!!

http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files/Policies/636.0%20-%20Disqualifications%20-%20Transfer%20of%20Horses.pdf

Obviously, Victoria don't adopt the same policy.

[Starship Captain]

IMO he is just unlucky getting this positive.
The trainers job is to win? To do this they must walk a line and always push the limits. What is the big deal, it's not like he was fixing race's with the stewards.

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=jimmy777;20811]I would think that HRNSW policy on DISQUALIFICATIONS – TRANSFER OF HORSES is being read by many at the moment!!

Hi Jimmy . At the time of acceptances there was no disqualification as such . He was found guilty on Monday but wasn't sentenced . In theory he may have only been fined so they had to take the horses nominations . HRNSW came up with a great solution so that the owners weren't penalised . I think they have handled it really well .

[aussiebreno]

IMO he is just unlucky getting this positive.
The trainers job is to win? To do this they must walk a line and always push the limits. What is the big deal, it's not like he was fixing race's with the stewards.
So I can come into your house and steal your TV. Whats the big deal...I didn't steal your car......

[Starship Captain]

As long as you don't get caught and you promise to take my wife with you.

Come on Aussiebreno what world do you live in?

[aussiebreno]

As long as you don't get caught and you promise to take my wife with you.

Come on Aussiebreno what world do you live in?
Not worth it!
Ok yeah, I get where you are coming from......but it still isn't acceptable in my books. You are entitled to you opinion though.

[Starship Captain]

If I have to choose a trainer for my horse what are the requirements that need to be filled?

1-They must be winning
2-??

I need help with this.

[mightymo]

Thanks Harvey . That answers alot of questions . HRNSW have done a very good job then . That gives everyone concerned a completely fair go . Thankfully for you HRV have looked at it differently and accepted B.McCarthy's nominations . Good luck

HRV have applied the exact same policy as HRNSW. Their fields came out before the NSW ones and they just havent updated the fields. If we want Sixpence to race on Fri, she will need to be under the care of another trainer as well

[aussiebreno]

HRV have applied the exact same policy as HRNSW. Their fields came out before the NSW ones and they just havent updated the fields. If we want Sixpence to race on Fri, she will need to be under the care of another trainer as well
Will understand if you skip this question, but what is your though process their in regards to changing trainers or sticking with wherever McCarthys horses go?

[racefair]

What are Belinda McCarthy's credentials? Has she trained a winner? How can the owners of these horses have any confidence in her? We heard so many times that Luke's success was due to his horsemanship. Can this be learnt and passed on so quickly? I can recall some guys going on about his knack for identifying horses, driving style etc. etc. If she has similar success, is it due to her horsemanship or something else?

[Greg Hando]

Bindy is a very good horse person in her own right as far as horsemanship goes but training i don't know what experience she may have.

[mightymo]

As far as Sixpence goes, we are contemplating sending her to QLD after Fri night. Previously when she went to QLD she was under the care of John Mccarthy so that is one option. Alternatively, I have horses in Victoria with Maree Caldow in particular, so that is another option.

[gregcattell]

B McCarthy must have training experience to have A Grade trainers licence

[Triple V]

Belinda is indeed a very capable horsewomen, having been around them since way back before she could climb out of her baby pram unassisted. I find it interesting that over the years these sorts of questions were not levelled at other equally capable female trainers such as Crystal Peacock, Susan Hunter, Sonja Mahar, Emma Stewart & Kerry-Anne Turner, all of whom have at one time or another taken over stables of horses from Trainers that had experienced or otherwise were in the process of doing time on the sidelines and all of whom, just like Belinda has done, did so at the time quite legally and at all times within the structure of the rules as they are/were written.
The fact is that all the horses were transferred to Belinda whilst Luke was not in fact disqualified and a reading of the rules mentions transfers from a disqualified trainer only. It is cut & dried in that respect. It may be a technicality but like Geoff Small's nothing short of inspired 'blood is not part of the cardio-vascular system' defence which took the specific wording of a rule to task and beat it...similarly the rules pertaining to transfers also stand applied as written. Before some of you decide to surge forward and shoot the messenger here....ask any half decent legal counsel to read the rules, they will tell you exactly the same. Whether ethically/morally/in the spirit of the rule etc. it is subsequently viewed by others as being right, wrong or indifferent....is totally immaterial. Legally at the time it was done it is/was allowable. As much as they might wish they could, HRNSW can't move the goalposts after the ball is kicked.

[Triple V]

......although, despite there being nothing in the National Rules that prevents this, a mate of mine just told me that there's actually something in the NSW 'Local Rules' which pertains to this sort of situation & might prevent it? :confused: The plot thickens. Am waiting for it to be e-mailed to me.

[Triple V]

...and here it is. Sorry, tried to cut & paste but the font is all stuffed up.
From the looks of it, NSW 'Local Rule' 636 ? for anyone who can look it up + HRA Rule 259 (i) also???

This one's right up VOR's alley...if he can tear himself away from the Shek Ki Superb Roasted Pigeon at Fat Siu Lau's. :rolleyes:

NB. Just edited 251 (i) to 259 (i) ...as 251 (i) is to do with being drunk. :eek:
259 is the applicable one apparently.
Will go have a look at them anyway.

[broncobrad]

IMO he is just unlucky getting this positive.
The trainers job is to win? To do this they must walk a line and always push the limits. What is the big deal, it's not like he was fixing race's with the stewards.

Is this the most idiotic comment ever posted???

What jurisdiction do you operate in? Tombstone ??

You are asking us to accept the lesser of two evils. I am happy for Wyatt to clean up both evils and apply his own brand of justice.

[aussiebreno]

...and here it is. Sorry, tried to cut & paste but the font is all stuffed up.
From the looks of it, NSW 'Local Rule' 636 ? for anyone who can look it up + HRA Rule 259 (i) also???

This one's right up VOR's alley...if he can tear himself away from the Shek Ki Superb Roasted Pigeon at Fat Siu Lau's. :rolleyes:

NB. Just edited 251 (i) to 259 (i) ...as 251 (i) is to do with being drunk. :eek:
259 is the applicable one apparently.
Will go have a look at them anyway.
Does 251 (i) also apply to posters on this forum :p

[Triple V]

jamie, i don't know a lot about the other partners that you mentioned and so it's difficult to make comment. Luke was getting horses from very experienced trainers such as heath, day etc. How could an owner expect belinda to do a better job than these trainers?
[vvv] geeze, i'm not going to buy into that one jett. i'm usually not at all adverse to firing in my two bob's worth but forgive me this time around as that's a 24 carat gold ome in spinner /does my arse look fat in these jeans style question. I'm on a hiding to nothing whatever i say in reply. all i will say is that i've known belinda & her family since she was a very young kid & i was still at school and i also know neil and lizzy. I greatly respect all of them as horsemen/horsewomen and as people in general.

if these owners were to be consistent then they would move them on from belinda who doesn't have a record or the skills and capabilities of these guys. . .that's unless there are other things at play in the mccarthy business that extend beyond general conditioning.
[vvv] is that a wind up or do you honestly think that belinda is just some dipsy bird who sits back and drinks cups of tea and plays with the baby and reads the women's weekly all day whilst all around her the business of running a racing stable occurs? Gimme a break. She no more sits back and watches the world go by than her mother has ever done with the day to day running of golden gait stud or than anne hancock ever did when brian's stable was at the height of its powers. Behind every successful man there's a women holding it all together. Lynne fitzpatrick is the same for paul. Maree caldow the same for john. Don't sell those harness racing ladies short mate. They're more often than not the ones holding it all together both in the foreground and in the background.

the performance of these horses over the coming weeks will provide for some interesting analysis.
[vvv] that's a very reasonable thing to be watching. No doubt you will not be alone in your vigil.

1. If belinda retains them. . My forecast would be that they perform to a similar level even though belinda doesn't have luke's skills or capabilities.
If this is the case, then it might suggest that luke's incredible results are due to things beyond that training alone. A point that not many can accept.
2. The horses move stable.. My forecast is that they will go backwards and the pundits will come out with some garbage that it's due to lukes facilities, scales, professionalism etc. Or something to that effect.

[vvv] in your eagerness to bag what you perceive to be belinda's compartive horsemenship capabilities...like many others you have roared right on by the the single biggest loss to that stable right now. it will not be belinda training them instead of luke that will make the difference to their results. Rather it will be the very significant loss of luke also driving them. Matt rue is an excellent driver, so don't get me wrong there, i'd put him up in a heartbeat...but he can of course only drive one horse at a time & quite often they had a couple to go in each race, luke on 1, matt on the other. Luke's services in the bike will be sorely missed i would expect.

so then if luke moved them to belinda's name ahead of time he was managing his risk around losing his license. Nothing wrong with that. . He's just too smart for everybody in this game.
[vvv] there is absolutely no requirement upon participants to read the rules any more no any less harshly than word for word exactly as they are written. the rules are the rules are the rules are the rules....and they are to be observed by participants as written and to be enforced by regulatory in the same manner.
it wasn't so long ago that the rules pertaining to another area were written in such a way as to allow a smart lionel hutz style law talkin' guy to get geoff small out from under a pretty fair charge by way of simply deliniating the blood system from the cardiovascular system, a successful defence which saw the wording of the rule changed.
in the same way that you only find out how good your insurance policy is when you make a claim, you only find out how good the rules of harness racing are when they're challenged. Rightly or wrongly, depending on your point of view, i expect this will be challenged. It might sound a bit odd right now...but even this, as unfortunate as it is...it will in fact amount to progress in the longer term just as the wording of the cardiovascular/blood system rules were changed so future lionel hutz's couldn't skip out via the same door.


vvv

[Triple V]

Does 251 (i) also apply to posters on this forum :p

[VVV] I hope not. Every now and again I'd risk getting a length disqualification. :rolleyes:

[Starship Captain]

Hello Broncobrad,

Your comment to my post was not very kind.

Is this the most idiotic comment ever posted???

[broncobrad]

Hey Jason, WTF, surely you can't be serious. Are you condoning the presence of a substance within an animal that is over the prescribed acceptable threshold that falls outside the guidelines clearly layed out for all participants to abide by? And you then intimate that, atleast that is better than colluding with stewards.

In the current climate of NSW with the sport trying to resurrect some semblance of self respect, I just find those comments unhelpful at the very least.

[racefair]

vvv

Jamie, I don't know Belinda from a bar of soap. I don't like or dislike her and she could be the greatest horseman in the world. I don't know and it doesn't have much to do with this argument.
HOWEVER, the facts are that she has an unproven record as a trainer and that's the point that I'm making. You get it Jamie, however as you've know her and like her you're emotional about this and are trying to spin something else. Fair enough. You then get back to Luke's incredible driving skills. People like Ashlee Seijka, Jim Douglas etc have showed their class as drivers on lear jets also. People aren't stupid Jamie xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[mark diegutis]

John McCarthy takes the reins from son Luke
News Room (news@harnesslink.com) 02:03 PM 24-May-2012 NZT (http://www.harnesslink.com/www/WorldTime.cgi)

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

VVV, care to explain why my post was removed?

[Triple V]

G'day Leigh,
It was removed because with two short sentences you rather deftly managed to slander ALL of Luke's owners, none of whom have had anything whatsoever to do with the current situation he is faced with. You can get the same point across by giving it some thought as to how you word it, that's all. I'm not looking for a stoush with you, but that's the way I saw it.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Fair enough. As your probably aware of by now, i'm not good at tactful, but I thought it was a point worth making. Tecnnically it wasn't slander till Luke came back from suspension in my defense. But I'll respect the umps call. Just a question though. Do you agree with the point I was trying to make?

[Triple V]

G'day Leigh,
It's not a matter of agree or disagree. I know Emilio pretty well & this comes from that standpoint. He...like any number of others, has made his views on intergity well & truly known post the July/August 2011 revelations here in NSW and rightly so, what happened was a disgrace.
He, again like many others, is repeatedly in print and on the net as having said numerous things about racing integrity & so on and in his case, all of which I know he has backed up personally, face to face & to anyone who has talked to him at the track, at the Yearling Sales & so on in recent times about this general subject. What he does from here on in is of course entirely his prerogative, as it is that of any and all Owners.
Years ago there was an article that came out in the now defunct Harness Racing Weekly that absolutely bagged the Hell out of Noel Alexander when the Owners of My Cherie moved her to his set up at Cranbourne from Ted Demmler's stables. When asked about the misgivings of some sections of the VIC Industry at the time, Noel simply suggested they get a dictionary & look up the meaning of the word Owner. It's the same for Emilio. I wouldn't cop someone telling me what to do with ours Trainer wise or anything else & I'll not do that to anyone else & nor should others, IMO.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

That's exactly right. And nowhere in my deleted post did I suggest what he should do with his horses. But you know what is a bigger penalty than any time on the sidelines or fine to a trainer who has returned a positive swab to a banned substance? It is the loss of quality horses and quality owners. I'd be interested to know if any posters would consider taking horses off a trainer who returned a positive and perhaps lost a race due to it.

[Starship Captain]

Yes,
We would move the horse/horses if we did not have any prior knowledge of the treatment, if we did not people would think that we were
condoning the use of such techniques.

Only joking:) as long as we are winning that is all that matters.

[Triple V]

Geeze Leigh. Pound for Pound that's arguably right up there with the biggest cans of worms to have been opened on this or any such Forum.
As a general comment, maybe John Celii, the owner of Badlands Hanover, and yourself should get together via e-mail & have a chat some time. He was & he no doubt still is very much into that subject. His was moreso coming at it from the standpoint of potential sires/siring careers & if I recall it correctly, at the time the Monte Gelrod/Bill Robinson show was running rampant which didn't help John's general demeanour when this sort of thing was raised...but it would be worth your while.

[Starship Captain]

This is an oldie but a goodie,
if it is known to be fact then breeding to the horses that these guy's trained would be morally wrong? We would just be supporting the wrong doing, and also what would be a normal pre-race vet bill?
Anyone have an estimate.

$3000? no way:)

[Triple V]

G'day SC,

Not going to buy into that one however, there are a lot of people who would have you believe it gives you a false impression of their worth as prospective sires & that it greatly reduces their chances of becoming successful sires. I should also say that I was once squarely amongst their number, but not anymore.

Without mentioning the horses & their respective Trainers by name....currently there are at least 10 of the top 20 on the 2012 season US All Age Pacing Sires List that came from barns that had scored multiple positives. On the current season's US 3yo Pacing Sires List it is at least 8 from 20 and thus far there have been no 2yo's to race.

2011 (the most recent fully completed season) wise...

- 10 of the top 20 & 7 of the top 10 All Age Pacing Sires

- 10 of the top 20 & 7 of the top 10 3yo Pacing Sires

....and

- 8 of the top 20 and 6 of the top 10 2yo Pacing Sires....

...came from barns that over the years have recorded multiple positives.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that it means nothing, at least as far as sires are concerned, something which I now agree with.

With the mares Fillies & Mares however, I still think that's another matter.

[Starship Captain]

We are both reading the same page on this, it is funny though how things have changed since you have become a S-MOD(Curtin's love child) and are not willing to name the stallion:)

hahhahahahahaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the world is going to end.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Geeze Leigh. Pound for Pound that's arguably right up there with the biggest cans of worms to have been opened on this or any such Forum.
As a general comment, maybe John Celii, the owner of Badlands Hanover, and yourself should get together via e-mail & have a chat some time. He was & he no doubt still is very much into that subject. His was moreso coming at it from the standpoint of potential sires/siring careers & if I recall it correctly, at the time the Monte Gelrod/Bill Robinson show was running rampant which didn't help John's general demeanour when this sort of thing was raised...but it would be worth your while.
Can of worms??? How so? Owners have the power to send a message to trainers using illegal methods,and are caught doing so. By no means am I telling someone what to do with their horse/s, but if everyone is on the same page ie. level playing field, then we must listen to our conscience. Or is it just too high a price to pay, and we are better off just bitching about it on some forum?

[dizzy]

That's exactly right. And nowhere in my deleted post did I suggest what he should do with his horses. But you know what is a bigger penalty than any time on the sidelines or fine to a trainer who has returned a positive swab to a banned substance? It is the loss of quality horses and quality owners. I'd be interested to know if any posters would consider taking horses off a trainer who returned a positive and perhaps lost a race due to it.


Perhaps I don't count at present as I don't have horses with a trainer at present, but I can tell you that in another life I have more then once removed a horse from riders that were of the highest calibre in their field as they had mistreated the animal. Depending on the exact circumstances and nature of a positive swab I wouldn't hesitate to remove a horse if I felt the circumstances warranted it.

[Triple V]

Can of worms??? How so? Owners have the power to send a message to trainers using illegal methods,and are caught doing so. By no means am I telling someone what to do with their horse/s, but if everyone is on the same page ie. level playing field, then we must listen to our conscience. Or is it just too high a price to pay, and we are better off just bitching about it on some forum?

[VVV] G'day Leigh, a can of worms insofar as I've seen this subject debated previously, initially it was on the old/now defunct Post Parade Harness List in the US and later on again it was on the follow on from that forum, which was US Harness List in one or other of it's forms. It went on for thousands of posts and for 2 or 3 months and it got pretty heated. Maybe things have changed since then, maybe they haven't.
That's all. I also thought that it was interesting that in the 2011 Season, 6 of the top 10 US/CAN 2yo Pacing Sires came out of Barns with a record of multiple violations.

[Greg Hando]

That's exactly right. And nowhere in my deleted post did I suggest what he should do with his horses. But you know what is a bigger penalty than any time on the sidelines or fine to a trainer who has returned a positive swab to a banned substance? It is the loss of quality horses and quality owners. I'd be interested to know if any posters would consider taking horses off a trainer who returned a positive and perhaps lost a race due to it.

I have had horse's with a trainer and done exactly that . He mentioned giving the horse a bit of help and i fed the horse that night and he hasn't had a horse of our's since.