Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats? - Richard Freedman on TripleM Radio

[racefair]

Richard Freedman during the Dead Set Legends program on TripleM Radio Sydney this morning categorically claims that people are joking if they think that drug testing alone will catch or stop drug cheats in any sport. He then goes on to say that it's a big problem in horse racing and he's on many occasions tried to get the authorities to do more. Richard and the Freedman brothers have won many Group1 races in Horse Racing.
Do you believe that Harness Racing is an exception and a level playing field? If Richard Freedman is right then we can do all the testing in the world and it won't make a difference. Training stables with the money behind them will be able to afford research and undetectable drugs and stay ahead of the game. Do the authorities need greater powers or do we need different people in the authority to get a level playing field? Maybe it's easier to get the public and members to think that we are doing a lot through all this testing. I'd be interested to hear what trainers think.

[mark diegutis]

Richard Freedman is right . We have seen some 30 odd positive swabs since NSW has cracked down with pre race testing but what we don't read into this is that these are just the poor sods who , in desperation , have done something to try and match it with the "profesional" offenders . The money stables are sodomising the industry and I think that Dots 5 year plan to exit this industry is about 2 years too long . We also have a 5 year plan which we put into affect 2 years ago . I believe that most of our group races here and in New Zealand were won by cheats . You would not believe how many , and who , have come up to us at recent race meetings and are threatening to leave . We received calls from 3 different states from people who are wanting to form a "union" and take their greivances public . I recently spoke at length to Reid Sanders who assures me that they are doing everything they can but untill these cheats are living in fear of being caught then we have absolutely no hope of being on a level playing field . They have to start a continuous "out of race" testing regime . Reid Sanders has gone overseas , this week , for a seminar on gaining the latest information on drug testing . Lets hope Harness racing can get ahead of the cheats . Unfortunately there is a mind set amoungst alot of people that its not so bad if they cheat and that unless the're caught its ok . The racing industry seems to accept cheating as part of the industry . They name group 1 races after the worst offenders in the gallops . The gallops will survive anything though because the huge majority of punters have nothing to do with the industry . Its quite the opposite with harness racing . Most punters have a direct connection to the industry which makes them ,generally, alot wiser with regards to racing . They know when they are being dudded . I predict another disasterous year for breeders and more and more will continue to leave . It's such a shame .

[Danno]

From a hobbyists point of view, one of the most offensive aspects of dealing with these "professionals" is the way the poor masses hold them up as some sort of "ornament" to the game, when any horse trainer knows you can't improve every horse that comes into your yard by several lengths virtually overnight. And when they start driving them like there's a bottomless petrol tank....anyone with half an open mind can join the dots.

Some will remember one particular contributor to this forum ( who has since been banned) expousing the virtues of a trainer who has since been found guilty of cheating, and he wasn't the only one either!!

In one repect that contributor may end up being correct...there will only be a handful of trainers left if things continue to follow the current trend, and those trainers left will need a degree in chemistry, an ally in the medical field and another in the pharmaceuticals business to remain competitive. So much for horsemanship.

[dizzy]

Post race drug testing certainly wont catch all the cheats as the use of performance enhancing drugs has become a much more sophisticated process then giving something on race day and hoping to get away with it. A lot of drug use these days, and not just in horse racing, revolve around using drugs during the training phase to produce physiological benefits that remain at competition time whilst the drugs that produced those benefits are long gone from the system and the horse will propuce a negative post race test. In other words to remain effective more pre race/ out of competition testing needs to be done to detect drug use.

Also important in any effort against cheating/drug use is better intelligence gathering, and this is an area that needs to improve IMO. Whilst it may take some effort to sort the wheat from the chaff initially an integrity hotline where information could be reported anonomously should be available (we had one under the GHRRA which dissappeared under HRNSW) Yes there is the possibility of misuse and the odd wild goose chase, but there is also the possibility that crucial imformation that completes the picture may be obtained.

And as Mark said there is a culture problem in the industry. Participants need to change their "Robin Hood" mentality, the cheats are not stealing from the "authorities" but are quite simply stealing from their peers, and in many cases their friends. Mr Sanders and company receive the same pay each week regardless of how many drug cheats they expose, it is honest participants who go home each week with less in their pockets because of the cheats.

[mark diegutis]

Hi Dan and Dot . At the recently run Breeders Challenge finals day the race caller anounced that we should change the name of Menangle Park to Macarthy Park . He did this after he won one of the finals . You could hear a thousand jaws hitting the ground . This guy has a positive swab and he says that . Its absolutely absurd and most found the comment insulting .

[teecee]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=98999

[dizzy]

Yes Mark some of the comments and actions from the administrative side of the industry defy belief

[Danno]

Yes Mark some of the comments and actions from the administrative side of the industry defy belief

Dot, from that angle do you remember the colgate kid?? had more positives than a battery factory and everytime he came back the masses would welcome him with open arms while everyone who had been skinned by him and his cheating siblings cringed. He was constantly referred to as being "good for the game", the memory of it still shits me rotten.

[Greg Hando]

I believe that with the first offence 12month's min penalty to 3 year's depending on drug used
2nd offence 5 year's
3rd your out for good.
The penalties have to be much harder to try and deter these people from using these banned substance's and somehow have some way of putting in no right of appeal condition's factored into your license when it is renewed each year.

[Triple V]

Richard Freedman during the Dead Set Legends program on TripleM Radio Sydney this morning categorically claims that people are joking if they think that drug testing alone will catch or stop drug cheats in any sport. He then goes on to say that it's a big problem in horse racing and he's on many occasions tried to get the authorities to do more. Richard and the Freedman brothers have won many Group1 races in Horse Racing.
Do you believe that Harness Racing is an exception and a level playing field? If Richard Freedman is right then we can do all the testing in the world and it won't make a difference. Training stables with the money behind them will be able to afford research and undetectable drugs and stay ahead of the game. Do the authorities need greater powers or do we need different people in the authority to get a level playing field? Maybe it's easier to get the public and members to think that we are doing a lot through all this testing. I'd be interested to hear what trainers think.

[VVV] Hmmmm. How quickly some forget. One of those Group 1's was Encosta De Lago's win in the 1996 Bill Stutt Stakes @ Moonee Valley and that after returning not 1, not 2 but 3 pre race TC02 overages, the first 2 of which came in well over and the 3rd of which came in at still over the limit but within the 'margin of error' and so the horse was allowed to start and it duly won the race with ease.
I wonder just how strongly old mate Richard was trying to get authorities to do something about it all back then when it was brother Lee in the firing line?

[tyson]

Do they do out of race testing ? I know they come around and check out your fridge.

I don't see how you could do out of race testing properly. You can use all types of medications during training periods and the horse that gets tested may be 10 weeks away from racing.

How could you regulate those type of situations.

[racefair]

"It has created the illusion that there is some independent oversight" David Landa, former integrity auditor for Greyhound Racing NSW.
See today's Sun Herald page 5. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-racing-going-to-the-dogs-20120714-2230l.html
This is a really interesting read from someone overseeing a similar sport.

[mark diegutis]

Do they do out of race testing ? I know they come around and check out your fridge.

I don't see how you could do out of race testing properly. You can use all types of medications during training periods and the horse that gets tested may be 10 weeks away from racing.

How could you regulate those type of situations.

Hi Tyson . Out of race testing is the ONLY way to stop the top cheats . Their use of steroids and EPO can only be picked up at their stables . Blood testing is readilly avaliable to these scum sucking pigs so they know if their horses will return a positive , so they just scratch them . The Stewards and associated integrity persons have to be smarter when planning their swabbing and it really isn't that difficult . They have a couple of things in their advantage and they are that the filthy pigs will target big races , they know or have a good idea on who is using drugs , they have a good idea on what they are using and how long they need to get a negative swab and what horses will probably be given help . Put all that together and you have a great chance of catching them or at least making them run the gauntlet . Any one of us could do that job and we don't have access to the information avaliable to the stewards . Put pressure on these sub human parisites by making them hand over their vet and blood testing records . Arrive at 2 am at their stables and take blood from any horses in work . Put fear into these bastards .
Unfortunately Tyson , this can only work if someone is actually out to catch them .

[Lethal]

Mark, what you say is the correct business model, that is to be PROACTIVE in pursuit of your ideals, not reactive. Unfortunately it has never occurred to our regulatory bodies.

[mark diegutis]

Hi Lee . Your dead right . We must become PROACTIVE if we want change . We have had tons of support from 3 different states but instead of everyone thumping their fists on the table we need to find out just how many angry participants there are and just how powerfull this group has the potential to become . We can start off by partitioning the authority , studs and race clubs and if we have enough support go as far as boycotting meetings and punting . If we get enough support we will start a web page up , so I ask for anyone willing , respond to this post , let me know or private message me .

[roosters]

Hi Mark

I am totally committed to drug free racing but unsure as to how you can say "I believe that most of our group races here and in New Zealand were won by cheats".

You are obviously aware of things that the majority of people are not.

Are you able to provide a list of those trainers who are cheats pls?

[racefair]

Hi Mark

I am totally committed to drug free racing but unsure as to how you can say "I believe that most of our group races here and in New Zealand were won by cheats".

You are obviously aware of things that the majority of people are not.

Are you able to provide a list of those trainers who are cheats pls?

The rules of this forum won't allow him to roosters. See post #3 by Dan who is a trainer and look around at all of the anecdotal evidence. Do your own research and ask trainers who know what's possible in terms of improvement in a limited time space. Google Boldenone Harness Racing for a few recent examples.

[roosters]

Maybe Im naive, but with all the testing going on, surely these trainers would be getting caught out and be suspended for a lengthy period?

[mark diegutis]

Maybe Im naive, but with all the testing going on, surely these trainers would be getting caught out and be suspended for a lengthy period?

Hi John . These cheats know exactly how to get their horses to the track with the use of these drugs without getting a positive . The 30 or so that have been caught are blokes just trying to keep up and they can't . Lance Armstrong got away with it since 1996 and they have only detected the masking agent which , beleive it or not , was a form of EPO which masks the use of other drugs after 24 hours . So they have to be caught working up on these drugs or straight after a booster shot .

[roosters]

so what you seem to be saying is just about every trainer is cheating, but not all have been caught yet...

According to you, are there any trainers not cheating?

based on what you have said, i would imagine they must be the ones who are not winning races

[doinmabest]

Mark,

I am sorry if you found my comments in relation to Luke Mccarthy driving 3 group 1 winners as offensive.
Under the rules, whether they be right or wrong, he was permitted to drive and participate in that day on a stay of proceedings. In the excitement of calling group one races I may of gone off in saying what I did but they were not designed to offend you or anyone else....

[racefair]

so what you seem to be saying is just about every trainer is cheating, but not all have been caught yet...

According to you, are there any trainers not cheating?

based on what you have said, i would imagine they must be the ones who are not winning races

Look at this as an example.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18568
http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=ME261111&ms=nsw
Courageous Kiwi gets caught with an EPO like substance and runs 9th by +40 metres in a Group2 race at Menangle.
This could raise a few questions.
1. is this the first time that the trainer used it? I'd guess that he'd tried it before such a big race to get the dosage right for that horse, however anything is possible.
2. if he's got access to it and used it repeatedly, then how is this guy not near the top of the trainers premiership? maybe the other guys are using something better or know how to better use EPO?
Keep in mind that in this race he was racing against some of the best in Australia and there are other variables that you'd need to consider.
We can only work with the information that's in front of us. Look at the variation of success that trainers are having. Are the top trainers of today the same as those a few years ago? Why not? Have they forgotten how to train? Look up a horse called Min Min Lights. It was a plodder who miraculously won multiple races at Harold Park with a change in trainer. The trainer had similar results with a few other horses, however now is back to an average strike rate again. I don't think he got caught cheating, however something was different during that time.

[Triple V]

Mark,

I am sorry if you found my comments in relation to Luke Mccarthy driving 3 group 1 winners as offensive.
Under the rules, whether they be right or wrong, he was permitted to drive and participate in that day on a stay of proceedings. In the excitement of calling group one races I may of gone off in saying what I did but they were not designed to offend you or anyone else....


[VVV] Geeze, I just can't sit on the sidelines any longer on this one fellas.
Fred, I thought they were quite reasonable and for mine, no need to apologise.
Luke drove 3 GROUP 1 WINNERS on the one program. That's worth remarking on and especially so for the fact that he drove two of them for another stable.
Perhaps Mark's view has been somewhat jaundiced by way of Luke & Grand Stride giving Waldenberg the stare and then going on to win the race whilst Waldenberg folded up his tent and faded out of contention.
Mark, mate, honestly, if you really want to get pissed at someone here, get pissed at Blake. He gave your horse NO CHANCE in that race. I like Blake a lot, he's a good fella & a very good horseman/driver, but that was not one of his best moments in the bike.
Now I might be completely wrong but I & a good many others I know see your bloke as a stone cold sit sprinter.... and it is inescapable that he wasn't driven that way in that race. Sit him up and he's capable of blousing anyone on his day but drive him like a Smoken Up style front end warrior & he will not. Interested in your views there.

Jaimie

[Triple V]

Hi John . These cheats know exactly how to get their horses to the track with the use of these drugs without getting a positive . The 30 or so that have been caught are blokes just trying to keep up and they can't . Lance Armstrong got away with it since 1996 and they have only detected the masking agent which , beleive it or not , was a form of EPO which masks the use of other drugs after 24 hours . So they have to be caught working up on these drugs or straight after a booster shot .


[VVV] There are no such things as masking agents.
There are only substances that may serve to interfere with & so endeavour to exploit the shortcoming/s of an existing testing regime/procedure.
If you you have enough sample on hand, you know exactly what are looking for & you know exactly where & how to look for evidence of its presence then you will ultimately find it. It all depends on how much time you are willing to spend in doing so and also how much expense you are willing to go to in order to achieve it.

[Danno]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21883][VVV] There are no such things as masking agents.

There are only substances that may serve to interfere with & so endeavour to exploit the shortcoming/s of an existing testing regime/procedure.


Jamie,
please forgive my ignorance,what then, are these substances called if not "masking agents"?

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21883][VVV] There are no such things as masking agents.

There are only substances that may serve to interfere with & so endeavour to exploit the shortcoming/s of an existing testing regime/procedure.


Jamie,
please forgive my ignorance,what then, are these substances called if not "masking agents"?

[VVV] G'day Dan,
Mate, it's not ignorance, rather it's just a common misnomer.
I guess you could call them any number of things other than any name that suggests or states that they actually 'mask' the presence of another substance..because they do not. Interference agents perhaps?
That being said, rather than such substances being the main reason to point to as to why anyone who chose to walk down that road might continue to skate by on testing, there is another far more likely Boogey Man lurking in the bushes.
It is a fact that completely unrelated types of drugs which nevertheless have completely like pharmacological effects can be administered to horses in micro doses. This is termed 'stacking'...a process whereby such drugs are effectively 'stacked' one atop of the other in order to achieve the desired result that otherwise a full dose of any single one of them would have achieved...only by way of having been 'stacked'... individually none of them will be present in a large enough amounts to cause a positive test to occur.
To put it in very simple terms...you can for example, as a Human, decide to take small doses of Panadol, Aspirin and Nurofen and do it all at the same time in order to achieve an overall pain killing/anti-inflamatory effect...while chemically speaking each of those drugs is completely unrelated to the other two. US & CAN Vets have been doing this with both equine related & I guess various other drugs for quite some time.
To some degree I think our testing regime is different here and I suspect it might well pick up at least some attempts at this practice...however I'm sure you get the picture.
Nevertheless, and without going so far as to put a blue print on here of how to be a dodgy bastard insofar as adopting the practice here, a Vet of similar dodgy views and with some reasonable insight into how to apply it could get any horse tuned up, no problems at all.
Like all such things, I suspect it all depends on what you are willing to pay in order to do so and how bent the Vet is. Fortunately here in Australia, at least to my knowledge, bent Vets are few & far between. That is far from being the case in the US however.
PS. This is what the authorities in NJ & NY are suggesting Lou Pena's Vet/s has/have been doing.

[mark diegutis]

[VVV] Geeze, I just can't sit on the sidelines any longer on this one fellas.
Fred, I thought they were quite reasonable and for mine, no need to apologise.
Luke drove 3 GROUP 1 WINNERS on the one program. That's worth remarking on and especially so for the fact that he drove two of them for another stable.
Perhaps Mark's view has been somewhat jaundiced by way of Luke & Grand Stride giving Waldenberg the stare and then going on to win the race whilst Waldenberg folded up his tent and faded out of contention.
Mark, mate, honestly, if you really want to get pissed at someone here, get pissed at Blake. He gave your horse NO CHANCE in that race. I like Blake a lot, he's a good fella & a very good horseman/driver, but that was not one of his best moments in the bike.
Now I might be completely wrong but I & a good many others I know see your bloke as a stone cold sit sprinter.... and it is inescapable that he wasn't driven that way in that race. Sit him up and he's capable of blousing anyone on his day but drive him like a Smoken Up style front end warrior & he will not. Interested in your views there.

Jaimie
Hi Jaimie . I'm not pissed off at anything Blake has done . In fact if it wasn't for Blake our horse would never had made it to the races . I sanctioned his drive . Nothing I have said on this forum has anything to do with our horse or his performances . I have been carefull not to bring our horse into any of my comments . I can't respond to the rest of your post as I will be banned . Thanks

[Danno]

Thanks for the clarification Jamie, between "interference agents" and "stacking" it sounds like if one were to spend some time in North America, in the company of people who have been using these techniques to avoid detection for quite some time, one would surely be able to duplicate the "systems" in Australia as long as they were able to access the pharmaceuticals.
Having had plenty of experience administering various medicines to my own horses over the years, I'm certain this could be achieved without the need for a bent or desperate vet, simply the ability to copy the techniques and access to the substances would get the job done no doubt.

If this has been going on for years in the states and their authorities have not closed the loop yet, it doesn't look good for our sport here long term either I wouldn't think.If tiny amounts of each drug are used then we are headed for a total ban on everything ( clearly can't happen ??) or an open slather system which would have the animal welfare groups working hard to shut us down!

cheers,
Dan

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21883][VVV] There are no such things as masking agents.


Hi Jaimie . We recently had a meeting with the president of the Australian Anti Doping Council {ASADA} . The recent downfall of Lance Armstrong was only because they detected the masking agent used . More will come out soon . Micro dosing is used to mask the use of drugs . This inclides the use of EPO to mask the presence of other drugs . This is from a guy who is on the board of the World Anti Doping Council and was a part of the team that brought down Lance Armstrong . He used the term "masking agent" . I'll take his word for it .

[mark diegutis]

Mark,

I am sorry if you found my comments in relation to Luke Mccarthy driving 3 group 1 winners as offensive.
Under the rules, whether they be right or wrong, he was permitted to drive and participate in that day on a stay of proceedings. In the excitement of calling group one races I may of gone off in saying what I did but they were not designed to offend you or anyone else....

Hi Fred . I was in the marque when you made that statement . The people around us were infuriated and you must understand that alot of people are finding life in harness racing really hard . When they are being destroyed by a bloke who has a positive swab then that sort of comment hits a raw nerve regardless of how many stays or appeals that person can drag out . Why don't you talk a few of the lesser trainers up a bit . Might give them a lift . This has nothing to do with driving 3 group 1 winners , its been since December when he was caught . Call it Mccarthy Park , but I would like a sign over the mens urinal calling it the Ben Johnson urinal where you piss into a plastic bottle ........Just trying to lighten things up . You call a great race Fred

[Lethal]

Hi Mark,
Some people will never get IT, just like the ongoing problems within the catholic church.
You probably know that Lance Armstrong has never said that he did NOT take any drugs. He always states that 'I have never failed a drug test'
The only way that illegal practices can be stamped out is with the combined will of all Australian states working collectively and putting up the money to do same. Can you see it really happening? or just our authorities paying the usual 'lip service'.

[mark diegutis]

G'day Lee . It is definately achievable . It would take a determination from each state and New Zealand . We've seen some unbelievable performances here and in NZ and if you look at those performances they are usually linked to a proven cheat . If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . I don't think that it would cost so much more . Its just about being smarter , but yes , all of the authorities would have to co operate and want to stamp out drug cheats . I'm not sure that they want to .

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21883][VVV] There are no such things as masking agents.


Hi Jaimie . We recently had a meeting with the president of the Australian Anti Doping Council {ASADA} . The recent downfall of Lance Armstrong was only because they detected the masking agent used . More will come out soon . Micro dosing is used to mask the use of drugs . This inclides the use of EPO to mask the presence of other drugs . This is from a guy who is on the board of the World Anti Doping Council and was a part of the team that brought down Lance Armstrong . He used the term "masking agent" . I'll take his word for it .

[VVV] G'day Mark,
Of course old mate is going to use that term as, come to think of it, are any and virtually all such persons that are connected with the drug testing agencies and/or the labs they employ.
This they do because instead of coming clean & exposing the shortcomings of their current testing...it instead gives them & their Labs an 'out' for each & every time the villains get out ahead of the current regimes and detection procedures...which unfortunately at the very cutting edge of it all is, I suspect, going to be pretty much all the time.
The 'masking agents' routine is a complete & utter furphy...and coming from people who for sure know better, it is rankly disingenous on their part to run with that public line. It is their way of covering up what they knwo for sure & certain, what most casual observers suspect & that which everyone who chooses to walk that road already knows...they (the testing agencies) are virtually always playing catch up football.

Re: Lance Armstrong...that goes to the very heart of what I've just said above.
What you are seeing with these anti-doping agencies is in fact shameless positioning and rampant arse covering to the point of feverishness...just in case he is found beyond doubt to have been giving himself a lift and for years and years and they are exposed as having repeatedly missed it.
At the core it really has got little or nothing to do with Armstrong per se and instead all to do with the multi-billion dollar international industry that is & that surrounds drug testing. Like Ben Johnson before him, Armstrong's just the very latest of their Pawns to be moved around the board.

[Triple V]

Hi Mark,
Some people will never get IT, just like the ongoing problems within the catholic church.
You probably know that Lance Armstrong has never said that he did NOT take any drugs. He always states that 'I have never failed a drug test'
The only way that illegal practices can be stamped out is with the combined will of all Australian states working collectively and putting up the money to do same. Can you see it really happening? or just our authorities paying the usual 'lip service'.

[VVV] G'day Lee,
Drug Testing in Sport has become the latest and it is verging on...if it is not already...the greatest Cash Cow ever for so many Agencies world wide that it is staggering.
A person could not be blamed for being extremely cynical of the whole thing insofar as it has somewhat of an every day horse related parallel in the rather cynical ongoing production & development specs for Horse Wormers.
I've absolutely no doubt that stone cold killer 100% effective, scorched earth style horse wormers could be developed & sold which would virtually wipe-out every single God damned worm in your horse/on your property...but why would they do it? Where would that leave their ongoing marketplace?
While I don't for one minute advocate just throwing our hands in the air & doing nothing as far as testing goes, the ongoing push for Racing to spend more & more $ on drug testing is in fact being funded and punted along behind the scenes/lobbied for by...you guessed it...the many & varied agencies who stand to benefit most from it's horizons being ever broadening. Dig around behind the scenes. The Lobbyists present in Canberra for these agencies are 'clout wise' at least the equal of those there for Mining, Big Tobacco, High Tech etc etc.
If we as an Industry spent $$$ on other ways of fighting the battle...for instance on intelligence aimed at identifying & shutting down the multitude of corridors through which various legal & illegal substances flow into the hands of whoever it is that might be under suspicion, surely that would be just as if not more effective at a grass roots level? How many times over the years have you seen a horse come up positive for a drug, the possession of which would land you or I in the Cop shop...or that is a highly restricted prescription only medication, only to see the person concerned disqualified and that's all she wrote? How about asking the question as to how they came to be in possession of whatever it is...or if not then asking the relevant authorities to do so on the Industry's behalf? It's not brain surgery. Perhaps the Testing Industry Lobbyists already have us too securely in their long-term parasitic grasp?

[Thevoiceofreason]

Mark,

I am sorry if you found my comments in relation to Luke Mccarthy driving 3 group 1 winners as offensive.
Under the rules, whether they be right or wrong, he was permitted to drive and participate in that day on a stay of proceedings. In the excitement of calling group one races I may of gone off in saying what I did but they were not designed to offend you or anyone else....

Trainers have been using anabolic steroids for years there is a legitimate veterinary use for them in animal recovery the substance Luke was found guilty of using has been around for years sure testing procedures have improved ... so as VVV says catch up football and we have caught up when they first started to find it it was thought it hung around for about 42 days that rolled out to 56 then to 72 truth is no one bloody knows, because it can and has been proven to fluctuate. labeling Luke Mc Carthy a drug cheat on one positive to a substance that many vets would still prescribe in certain circumstances is simply bloody overkill and to have a crack at the media for talking up the leading trainer driver for winning group one races well that is just laughable.

Some of you need to one of two things, get a life or adapt to living in the real world.

[Triple V]

Trainers have been using anabolic steroids for years there is a legitimate veterinary use for them in animal recovery the substance Luke was found guilty of using has been around for years sure testing procedures have improved ... so as VVV says catch up football and we have caught up when they first started to find it it was thought it hung around for about 42 days that rolled out to 56 then to 72 truth is no one bloody knows, because it can and has been proven to fluctuate. labeling Luke Mc Carthy a drug cheat on one positive to a substance that many vets would still prescribe in certain circumstances is simply bloody overkill and to have a crack at the media for talking up the leading trainer driver for winning group one races well that is just laughable.

Some of you need to one of two things, get a life or adapt to living in the real world.

[VVV] "That's going straight to the Pool Room". Well said VOR, well said.

[Lethal]

Just wondering which word exactly, in the statement 'DRUG FREE RACING' some people seem to have difficulty comprehending?

[mightymo]

do people think there is a difference between BANNED substances eg EPO, ITPP, Meth and therapuetic substances which are legal but have a withholding period eg. Bute

This is about to become a major issue courtesy of what is happening in NZ. The article on Harnesslink is a very interesting read

[Triple V]

Just wondering which word exactly, in the statement 'DRUG FREE RACING' some people seem to have difficulty comprehending?

[VVV] Similarly Lee, I'm continually left wondering why it is that so many people continue to have such extreme difficulty in delineating those which are officially accepted/designated equine therapeutic substances from those substances which are straight up without question nefarious & should never ever be found in any horse at any stage...such as Methamphetamine, EPO & so on???????
You would seemingly seek to deal to the bloke with a therapeutic Bute overage in the exact same fashion as you would deal to a bloke with a horse that returns a positive to Aranesp or Cocaine or perhaps one of Granny's dimentia meds.
You and your tar & feather them all and then burn them at the stake cohorts need to secure some sort of a grip on reality here.
In that respect the scale of punishments that was recently released by HRNSW is equally ridiculous by way of the clear top to bottom compression in sentences.
What was it again?.....1st offence 12 months for a Bute overage, 1st offence 5 years for EPO?
Give me a &%$#ing break.
What head buried up their own clacker worked those out & thought they were in any way reasonable?
Jesus wept profusely.
How about stretching them out a fair bit fellas?
How about 3 months 1st offence for a Bute overage based on quantified testing of same in relation to published thresholds and 10 years straight up 1st offence for EPO & similar?
Nah, of course not...that would make too much sense.

[Triple V]

Hi Jaimie . I'm not pissed off at anything Blake has done . In fact if it wasn't for Blake our horse would never had made it to the races . I sanctioned his drive . Nothing I have said on this forum has anything to do with our horse or his performances . I have been carefull not to bring our horse into any of my comments . I can't respond to the rest of your post as I will be banned . Thanks


[VVV] Fair enough. You were dead unlucky there today Mark. He gets the space, he wins the race, that's exactly what I was on about before, sat cold leaders back following a hot pace and he would have killed them had he gotten out. You'd have thought that in a close on 1/4 mile stretch a lane would've opened up somewhere. Backed him, thought he could win it with that kind of a trip. Blake drove him a treat.

[dizzy]

Bill steroids have been around for years, and years ago Boldonone did test as you say. Now a new version tests for as little as 17 days and then only that long using a very specific testing method. I'm sure someone will correct me here if I'm wrong but if Boldonone had been used in a therapeutic recovery protocol wouldn't it have been administered or at least supplied by a "legitimate" vet as VVV said we don't tend to have bodgy ones. Wouldn't then the exact amount and time of administration be known? Wouldn't the trainers know what had been administered to horses in their care instead of publicly stating they didn't know what Boldonone was?

Yes Harvey there is a massive difference between therapeautic substances and things that shouldn't be found in a horse EVER. The NZ authorities raised the bar on testing by sending swabs to Hong Kong, and they didn't hide the fact that they were going to send them to Hong Kong. That should have served as sufficient warning to both vets and trainers that they should review their current treatment regimes as I'm sure, particularly after Tim Butt returned a positive here from the Hong Kong lab, that the capabilities of the Hong Kong Lab to detect prohibitive substances is well known in NZ. If they didn't do so then they did that at there own risk, arsenic is listed as an ingredient on Caco Copper Iron I believe.

And as to the scale of penalties recently released by HRNSW I am in total agreement with VVV here and no it doesn't pain me at all to say it.

[Lethal]

If the testing by thr HKJC is so unfair, where are all the positives arising out of the most tested racehorses of any country. The NZ industry was warned that some swab samples were to be sent to the HKJC and you now can see the result. It is easy to go to the HKJC website and have a look at their document 'A List of Questions that are Frequently Asked by Visiting International Trainers' where it would seem blatantly obvious what they are about.
It seems that overseas galloping trainers do just that (except Joe Janiac) as positive swabs are at a minimum.

[teecee]

Yes Harvey there is a massive difference between therapeautic substances and things that shouldn't be found in a horse EVER. The NZ authorities raised the bar on testing by sending swabs to Hong Kong, and they didn't hide the fact that they were going to send them to Hong Kong. That should have served as sufficient warning to both vets and trainers that they should review their current treatment regimes as I'm sure, particularly after Tim Butt returned a positive here from the Hong Kong lab, that the capabilities of the Hong Kong Lab to detect prohibitive substances is well known in NZ. If they didn't do so then they did that at there own risk, arsenic is listed as an ingredient on Caco Copper Iron I believe.


Excerpt from Harnesslink on NZ situation.
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99072

[mark diegutis]

Trainers have been using anabolic steroids for years there is a legitimate veterinary use for them in animal recovery the substance Luke was found guilty of using has been around for years sure testing procedures have improved ... so as VVV says catch up football and we have caught up when they first started to find it it was thought it hung around for about 42 days that rolled out to 56 then to 72 truth is no one bloody knows, because it can and has been proven to fluctuate. labeling Luke Mc Carthy a drug cheat on one positive to a substance that many vets would still prescribe in certain circumstances is simply bloody overkill and to have a crack at the media for talking up the leading trainer driver for winning group one races well that is just laughable.

Some of you need to one of two things, get a life or adapt to living in the real world.

Hi Bill . Yes trainers have been using steroids for years or , more correctly , trainers have been cheating for years . Boldenone is not a recovery substance to use whilst your horse is still racing . There is only 1 reason for using it on a horse thats racing and lets not forget that his best mate who stays at his place also went positive . You can't tell me they both needed a recovery bullet and where is Karloo kix now . Can't win a pony race at Bathurst Show . Vets may still prescribe this drug , in certain circumstances , but a horse that needs it would not be able to race let alone race like those 2 were racing . I don't see this as 1 positive . I see it as the 1 he got caught with . You've obviously been in harness racing as an official for most of your working life . Maybe your the one who needs to get a real life . If you accept this sort of drug use then youve been around cheats for far too long . Alot of people have attempted to adapt to your real world and 30 or so of them have gone positive . People have been trying to change the real world since the year dot . Without change we would still have slavery in America , we would never have seen Evon Goolagong or , for you Tigers fans , Larry Corrowa . Women would not be allowed to vote . {maybe thats not a good argument} The real world stinks Bill and if harness racing doesn't change its finished . At least for us and many , many others . In the last 24hrs Ive been contacted by people that I have never met and they have decided to cancel any plans of puting their mares in foal . A total of 15 and 10 of those are going on the doggers truck . What would you and VVV do without harness racing or this forum . Don't tell me to get a life Bill . Ive already got a great one and if I had to decend into your world I'll give harness racing the flick .

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=mark diegutis;21893]


Re: Lance Armstrong...that goes to the very heart of what I've just said above.
What you are seeing with these anti-doping agencies is in fact shameless positioning and rampant arse covering to the point of feverishness...just in case he is found beyond doubt to have been giving himself a lift and for years and years and they are exposed as having repeatedly missed it.
At the core it really has got little or nothing to do with Armstrong per se and instead all to do with the multi-billion dollar international industry that is & that surrounds drug testing. Like Ben Johnson before him, Armstrong's just the very latest of their Pawns to be moved around the board.


Hi Jaimie . You must really think that there is some great cover up . These anti doping agencies aren't a billion dollar industry . The're a billion dollar cost to an even bigger industry that has to be cleaned up to survive . Like athletics , cycling was starting to struggle with confidence . They have rebuilt by introducing the most demanding and invasive rule changes to ensure as level a playing field as possible . Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong aren't pawns , the're cheats and the racing industry is the only group of people that could twist it around to be something else . I'll bet the Lance Armstrong Velodrome will be renamed where as the racing industry wants to change a venues name to one of its "stars" after they get a positive . The're cheats Jaimie , just cheats .

[doinmabest]

Mark, I made the rename the venue comment post race with full knowledge no such renaming would ever occur... It was a throwaway comment made in the heat of the moment.... So it was not the industry that called for the renaming, it was me alone and to my knowledge no one else made such a call....as I said, accept that I never intended to offend....But take on board, it was purely post race ad lib and nobody in any authority would of even for a nano second given consideration to renaming anything that I suggested.... If however I could come up with some ad lib to get my kids to eat their peas!!!!!! Even they don't listen...

[racefair]

Most trainers agree with you Mark however find it difficult to articulate what you've said and don't know what to do about the problems that they see. Where do they go?

Jamie and others fell in love with Luke McCarthy and screamed tall poppy syndrome and jealousy to anyone questioning his miraculous strike rate and ability to improve a horse in such a short space of time. They shouted everyone down by saying that because he's never been caught doping then he's not a drug cheat. Then when Luke got the Boldenone positive and we get a new argument from them. E.g. from Bill Williams that we can't call him a cheat for this single offence. Al Capone is often referred to as the greatest American gangster, however was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I guess Bill Williams and Jamie Varcoe still wouldn't call Al Capone a gangster?

Good luck to Luke. He's truly the smartest and even if he's outed, he'll retain his clients and operate through others. He's got strong sponsorship and is perceived by some at the top as being good for the game. Many more will get caught with drugs as they'll have to try something to compete. Otherwise, they may as well give up.

[broncobrad]

[VVV] Hmmmm. How quickly some forget. One of those Group 1's was Encosta De Lago's win in the 1996 Bill Stutt Stakes @ Moonee Valley and that after returning not 1, not 2 but 3 pre race TC02 overages, the first 2 of which came in well over and the 3rd of which came in at still over the limit but within the 'margin of error' and so the horse was allowed to start and it duly won the race with ease.
I wonder just how strongly old mate Richard was trying to get authorities to do something about it all back then when it was brother Lee in the firing line?

This is about the only comment I can agree with here Triple, indeed a case of running with the hounds or running with the fox, its all a matter of timing. I remember one of Encostas offspring, the appropriately named Milkshake which did win a couple of two year old races. Richard was on a panel and was asked what he thought about the naming of that horse. His indignance was there for all to see and nothing he had to say to those connections was complimentary. A clever piece of naming at the expense of anothers misfortune. Richie just couldn't see the funny side of it.

I am betting that all of those honest trainers that feel cheated by trainers who push the boundarys illegally don't see the funny side of it either. Nor do the owners of those horses. Nor does the silly old punter who doesn't know any better. The cheated are not the ones on trial here.

I am thinking there are an awful lot of people out there that want real change, but conversely there are some who are finding it all too much...as if the authorities have gone too far in their testing and people are a little bit shocked that they are now being exposed. Its a shame the out-of-competition testing isn't more actively pursued when horses are coming back into work (although that may be happening, I don't know) Your stacking theory is certainly plausible to some extent but your drug testing agency conspiracacy, well even someone as gullible as myself couldn't swallow that one..

[mark diegutis]

Mark, I made the rename the venue comment post race with full knowledge no such renaming would ever occur... It was a throwaway comment made in the heat of the moment.... So it was not the industry that called for the renaming, it was me alone and to my knowledge no one else made such a call....as I said, accept that I never intended to offend....But take on board, it was purely post race ad lib and nobody in any authority would of even for a nano second given consideration to renaming anything that I suggested.... If however I could come up with some ad lib to get my kids to eat their peas!!!!!! Even they don't listen...


No worries Fred , I agree , we'll let that lie . Tell your kids if they don't eat their peas they'll have to spend a day with VVV

[Greg Hando]

Mark - what is the reason you use Boldenone when a horse is racing ? as i have no idea . As far as i have heard Karloo Kix is in the paddock having a spell along all B Lew's horse's so i've been told. Didn't see him in the pony trot at the Bathurst show how did he go ? Didn't know they were on or would have taken my pony down to race. Where can u find out when the pony trot's are on .

[mark diegutis]

Hi Greg . I was told that the horse was given to a prominent trainer out west and couldn't get hot . He was spelled after the pony trot . Pony trots are run every month at Newcastle , so we might see you there and boldenone is used if you want an improved performance . It achieves an increased level of natural EPO and gives the horse an increased appetite as well as building muscle . You can work them harder than would be normal therefore achieving a much higher level of fitness . Steroids are prescribed to help a horse heal after a severe injury or to pick them up when ill and won't eat . Not when they're winning races .

[barney]

Mark it is good to read somebody actually saying it as it is.We had someone on here who said Luke should be allowed to use whatever method as he was the top trainer.A lot of people were banned from here and i personally received some abuse via a pm because i dared to question Lukes methods. Was told what a great trainer he was and could improve horses out of sight by using new training methods.

[Triple V]

Most trainers agree with you Mark however find it difficult to articulate what you've said and don't know what to do about the problems that they see. Where do they go?

Jamie and others fell in love with Luke McCarthy and screamed tall poppy syndrome and jealousy to anyone questioning his miraculous strike rate and ability to improve a horse in such a short space of time. They shouted everyone down by saying that because he's never been caught doping then he's not a drug cheat. Then when Luke got the Boldenone positive and we get a new argument from them. E.g. from Bill Williams that we can't call him a cheat for this single offence. Al Capone is often referred to as the greatest American gangster, however was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I guess Bill Williams and Jamie Varcoe still wouldn't call Al Capone a gangster?

Good luck to Luke. He's truly the smartest and even if he's outed, he'll retain his clients and operate through others. He's got strong sponsorship and is perceived by some at the top as being good for the game. Many more will get caught with drugs as they'll have to try something to compete. Otherwise, they may as well give up.


[VVV] C'mon now Jett.
You can do better than that surely. You know what really spins my head about all this?
Yourself, Mark & others have gone on & on about Luke McCarthy having picked up a single Boldenone positive, which is of course your right...and yet in the last week or so Shannon Wonson went for a 3 year stretch (which IMO was a manifestly too short a time) for a far more heinous substance in EPO.
To date, quite inexplicably, none of you have said so much as a word about it on here?
Do yourself and others not see the sizeable measure of duplicity in that?

As for the lame arse Al Capone dig, it might've escaped your attention but I've repeatedly called for the, IMO, disgracefully compressed list of new penalties recently released here in NSW to be significantly stretched out from top to bottom....for example, 3 months for 1st offence therapeutic overages such as bute etc. through to 10 years 1st offence EPO & similar substances...so your inferrence that I'm barracking for such people is quite clearly not the case. Instead I'm hoping that yourself & others might get some perspective here & realise that as an Industry we must never lose sight of the fundementals.

- We are a wagering based industry.

- We need to supply a consistent, reliable wagering product to the Punters.

- With the level of competition facing the average racehorse today, in order to provide and to maitain the long term provision of a consistent, reliable wagering product...it is an absolute MUST that we have a series of thresholds in place allowing Trainers to treat horses with designated equine therapeutics. Bute, Jurocyl etc. (that nonsense going on in NZ is quite staggering to say the least...Caco Copper Iron scoring positives that will likely lose people races???? Gimme a freaking break. INSANE! )

- In order to achieve all of that, we need to have quantitative testing in place, something which for the most part we currently do not have. Instead we have a system which largely relies upon a black and white 'yes it is present' (the actual amounts present & associated pharmacological activity aspects of same be damnned) or 'no it is not' & sir, you're clear.

That sort of a system Jett...it is just INSANE. Remember, these are race horses. They are competition horses. They get bangs & bumps & bruises. They get tired, they get sick, they get sore. There is a better way.

I simply want what is best and most practicle for the Industry and above all else for the horses that we time and again ask to go down the road, week in, week out, year in, year out. I would no more give a horse anything that was detrimental to it's health & wellbeing than I would hit myself in the Jatz with a brick hammer.
If anything I am too far the other way.
That in and of itself motivates me every single day to keep the therapeutics debate alive & kicking in order to hopefully slowly but surely see Harness Racing move towards a much better way of doing things than we currently have at hand.

Ironically, as I understand it Luke actually got a Boldenone overage...there is a threshold in place for it and it is able to be tested for on a quantitative basis.
That aside, we need thresholds for a whole host of other equine therapeutics for which, as I said above we currently do not have quantitative testing in place...duly leaving Trainers at the mercy of a fundementally prehistoric regulatory approach.

[Triple V]

Mark it is good to read somebody actually saying it as it is.We had someone on here who said Luke should be allowed to use whatever method as he was the top trainer.A lot of people were banned from here and i personally received some abuse via a pm because i dared to question Lukes methods. Was told what a great trainer he was and could improve horses out of sight by using new training methods.

[VVV] G'day Brian, I recall those comments and the person who said that was a multiple Fake ID member & was acting as an 'urger' to stir up the anti brigade. He was punted accordingly. If someone abuses you via PM either block them or if you feel strongly enough about it let Jules or Tony know and they'll punt the person/s responsible.

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21898]


Hi Jaimie . You must really think that there is some great cover up . These anti doping agencies aren't a billion dollar industry . The're a billion dollar cost to an even bigger industry that has to be cleaned up to survive . Like athletics , cycling was starting to struggle with confidence . They have rebuilt by introducing the most demanding and invasive rule changes to ensure as level a playing field as possible . Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong aren't pawns , the're cheats and the racing industry is the only group of people that could twist it around to be something else . I'll bet the Lance Armstrong Velodrome will be renamed where as the racing industry wants to change a venues name to one of its "stars" after they get a positive . The're cheats Jaimie , just cheats .

[VVV] G'day Mark,
So where exactly do you think all the $$$ is going for all the testing that is being carried out across all avenues of professional/competitive sport where participants stand to gain financially?
It's going straight to the Testing Labs & duly apperaing upon the balance sheets of the companies that own them, that's where it's going.
It's all about the kanga mate, the almighty dollar. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Obviously the massive Industry behind the anti-doping agencies has convinced you of their completely altruistic, non-profit motives.
Don't get me wrong, there is always going to be a need for testing...but it is also an inescapable fact that old mates behind the scenes are far from being adverse to ramping up the hysteria now and again in order to keep it all rolling along. Do you honestly believe Lobbyists from that Industry have not had contact with the Office of The NSW Racing Minister, past or present? Why would they do that...hmmmm, I wonder?

[Danno]

[QUOTE=mark diegutis;21916]

[VVV] G'day Mark,
So where exactly do you think all the $$$ is going for all the testing that is being carried out across all avenues of professional/competitive sport where participants stand to gain financially?
It's going straight to the Testing Labs & duly apperaing upon the balance sheets of the companies that own them, that's where it's going.
It's all about the kanga mate, the almighty dollar. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Obviously the massive Industry behind the anti-doping agencies has convinced you of their completely altruistic, non-profit motives.
Don't get me wrong, there is always going to be a need for testing...but it is also an inescapable fact that old mates behind the scenes are far from being adverse to ramping up the hysteria now and again in order to keep it all rolling along. Do you honestly believe Lobbyists from that Industry have not had contact with the Office of The NSW Racing Minister, past or present? Why would they do that...hmmmm, I wonder?

G'day Jamie,
I see the tour de france is in the press today with another doping story..must be those tricky anti-doping agency lobbyists again hey?

I've got a simple question for you, do you think Barry Lew and Luke McCarthy are cheats? and if the answer is no, then why not?

[racefair]

[VVV] C'mon now Jett.
You can do better than that surely. You know what really spins my head about all this?
Yourself, Mark & others have gone on & on about Luke McCarthy having picked up a single Boldenone positive, which is of course your right...and yet in the last week or so Shannon Wonson went for a 3 year stretch (which IMO was a manifestly too short a time) for a far more heinous substance in EPO.
To date, quite inexplicably, none of you have said so much as a word about it on here?
Do yourself and others not see the sizeable measure of duplicity in that?

As for the lame arse Al Capone dig, it might've escaped your attention but I've repeatedly called for the, IMO, disgracefully compressed list of new penalties recently released here in NSW to be significantly stretched out from top to bottom....for example, 3 months for 1st offence therapeutic overages such as bute etc. through to 10 years 1st offence EPO & similar substances...so your inferrence that I'm barracking for such people is quite clearly not the case. Instead I'm hoping that yourself & others might get some perspective here & realise that as an Industry we must never lose sight of the fundementals.

- We are a wagering based industry.

- We need to supply a consistent, reliable wagering product to the Punters.

- With the level of competition facing the average racehorse today, in order to provide and to maitain the long term provision of a consistent, reliable wagering product...it is an absolute MUST that we have a series of thresholds in place allowing Trainers to treat horses with designated equine therapeutics. Bute, Jurocyl etc. (that nonsense going on in NZ is quite staggering to say the least...Caco Copper Iron scoring positives that will likely lose people races???? Gimme a freaking break. INSANE! )

- In order to achieve all of that, we need to have quantitative testing in place, something which for the most part we currently do not have. Instead we have a system which largely relies upon a black and white 'yes it is present' (the actual amounts present & associated pharmacological activity aspects of same be damnned) or 'no it is not' & sir, you're clear.

That sort of a system Jett...it is just INSANE. Remember, these are race horses. They are competition horses. They get bangs & bumps & bruises. They get tired, they get sick, they get sore. There is a better way.

I simply want what is best and most practicle for the Industry and above all else for the horses that we time and again ask to go down the road, week in, week out, year in, year out. I would no more give a horse anything that was detrimental to it's health & wellbeing than I would hit myself in the Jatz with a brick hammer.
If anything I am too far the other way.
That in and of itself motivates me every single day to keep the therapeutics debate alive & kicking in order to hopefully slowly but surely see Harness Racing move towards a much better way of doing things than we currently have at hand.

Ironically, as I understand it Luke actually got a Boldenone overage...there is a threshold in place for it and it is able to be tested for on a quantitative basis.
That aside, we need thresholds for a whole host of other equine therapeutics for which, as I said above we currently do not have quantitative testing in place...duly leaving Trainers at the mercy of a fundementally prehistoric regulatory approach.

Thanks for your reply Jamie. This thread was started with Richard Freedman's comments about testing alone not catching or stopping the cheats and we digress.

Luke McCarthy - You're right, a Boldenone positive on it's own isn't a hanging offence. Luke McCarthy was getting results only previously seen through drug enhancement. Show me where else in any other sport? Where is the logic in not thinking that there's a good chance that his improvements are beyond feed, nutrition and training alone? Someone expressed a comment that it's just the one that he got caught with.

Scale and Magnitude - Wonson's strike rate has never got close to McCarthy's. He isn't in most races beating you from any barrier. He placed 9th with the horse on EPO.

Duplicity - I've highlighted some miraculous improvements by the likes of Thorn, Hancock and Wilson in the past. Remember our exchanges on Dartmoor? You've often got these interesting views on reasons for their improvements. Such as a drop in class, being driven american style, being more professional using scales and the list goes on.
The challenge that I have is that most trainers and drivers think that those reasons are a joke. These are the guys at the coal face.

Quantitative testing - no argument from me on this Jamie.

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Who is the more important customer of Harness Racing? Is it the Punter or the Owner? You've mentioned that we need a consistent wagering product. Does the perception of that take precedence over a level playing field for the owners and trainers?

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21928]

G'day Jamie,
I see the tour de france is in the press today with another doping story..must be those tricky anti-doping agency lobbyists again hey?

[VVV] G'day Dan,
No, you're not reading what I've posted closely enough. The anti-doping agencies are merely the public face of it all & largely passive partners, though partners they most certainly are. The Lobbyists are the ones paid by the Testing Industry & are the active though largely behind the scenes mouthpieces for same.

I've got a simple question for you, do you think Barry Lew and Luke McCarthy are cheats? and if the answer is no, then why not?

[VVV] That's one of those 'You're rooted if do you answer, you're rooted if you don not' sorts of questions Dan but no matter. I'm your Huckleberry.

Do I think they're cheats? No, I don't.

Why? Because my gut feeling tells me it is a miscalculated use of a designated equine therapeutic substance, one that has been very widely used throughout both equine Racing codes specifically as a recovery/maintainence aid for as long as I can remember. For that they will pay whatever the penalty is that is ultimately dished out to them.

Dan, if I were to tell you what I would do as a Trainer insofar as basic stable management was concerned & given that I had horses that were racing as hard as they are asked to race these days...I strongly suspect you & others would scream the house down & suggest I was a crook or a cheat or that I was someone looking to defraud the public and/or my fellow participants, but anyone who knows me knows that is not and never would be the case.
The health & welfare of my horses is & would always be first & foremost in my mind and I'd never do anything I even remotely suspected would be harmful to them.
Nevertheless, under the current regime, the way I would approach week to week maintenance, health & welfare I am sure would likely put me at odds with the current regulatory approach.
Further to this, I am pretty sure that is how both Luke & Barry have come to grief.
Neither are cheats, neither are bad people, neither are deserving of the level of villification they receive here and elsewhere. Give them a bagging if you must however some of the comments on here are pretty rugged.
Surely that sort of venom should be saved up for those who REALLY transgress...courtesy of Meth, EPO etc...however I suspect it will not be the case.


Dan, I've just put it in bold to make a distinction.

[Danno]

Jamie,
the steroids have been barred for about twenty years mate, I ,like everyone else used them as a training aid when they were legal, but as I said they haven't been for many,many years, so I reckon it's a bit of a stretch to say the guys are unlucky or anything like it, the horses were obviously at the very LEAST trained up on it, or maybe the Boldeneone was a small dose in conjuction with others??
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

On the animal welfare side to it Jamie, we who were using steroids years ago had no idea what we were doing to the horses long term, one of the main reasons steroids were barred was because of the long term detrimental side affects the horses would suffer down the track.

On that basis alone, I will never use them again for any reason, there are other ways to assist an animal to recover from injury or illness than to destroy its long term health.

Cheers,
Dan

[Triple V]

Jamie,
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

[VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.

[Lethal]

Mark, we should go into business on a website with a link from here:

'CONSPIRACY THEORIES ONLINE' only $1 each
with a link to
'CONVOLUTED WORDS COMBINED' only $1 a sentence'

We wouldn't have any trouble identifying our TARGET MARKET.

Has to be a goer.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Jamie,
the steroids have been barred for about twenty years mate, I ,like everyone else used them as a training aid when they were legal, but as I said they haven't been for many,many years, so I reckon it's a bit of a stretch to say the guys are unlucky or anything like it, the horses were obviously at the very LEAST trained up on it, or maybe the Boldeneone was a small dose in conjuction with others??
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

On the animal welfare side to it Jamie, we who were using steroids years ago had no idea what we were doing to the horses long term, one of the main reasons steroids were barred was because of the long term detrimental side affects the horses would suffer down the track.

On that basis alone, I will never use them again for any reason, there are other ways to assist an animal to recover from injury or illness than to destroy its long term health.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan

I will stand corrected but this is this misunderstanding throughout this thread steroids are not banned, all this rubbish about out of competition testing finding substances and cheats is just not right.

Of all the swabs I can recall in the the last 4 years in NSW and there have been plenty I would say about 100 only 2 would have caused a problem with out of comp testing the EPO and Roy Roots jrn one.

Steroids are sweet to use under vet advice and plenty do and from the sates leading vets and if you and Mark do not like it tuf.

f I do not think it will ever change the vast majority of those positive swabs were TCO2....... bi carb because its cheap and effective ..out of competition test every horse in the state every week if you want will not get rid of bicarb or steroids because neither is banned out of competition and I doubt ever will be.

So called Drug free racing is a myth because we need therapeutic drugs to keep horses racing.

Example in nearly every jurisdiction in the world treatment for ulcers is allowed because so many horses suffer from them...EIPH (bleeding) is a far more common up to 95% in some studies and a bigger problem a drug treatment for this will eventually be permitted (no VVV not lasix well I hope not too tricky) but nevertheless a treatment.

By all means get rid of the cheats but please understand drugs and treatment of racing horses with them is needed to keep the industry alive.

Every positive swab is not someone deliberately cheating

[Triple V]

Mark, we should go into business on a website with a link from here:

'CONSPIRACY THEORIES ONLINE' only $1 each
with a link to
'CONVOLUTED WORDS COMBINED' only $1 a sentence'

We wouldn't have any trouble identifying our TARGET MARKET.

Has to be a goer.

[VVV] Lee, how can I even begin to reply to that?
Your Rapier-like wit has cut me to the bone. :rolleyes:

[Thevoiceofreason]

[VVV] Lee, how can I even begin to reply to that?
Your Rapier-like wit has cut me to the bone. :rolleyes:


The best bit is VVV unlike us poor plebs you can afford it.

[Danno]

G'day Bill,
I can be wrong...I just can't remember the last time it happened :D, my recollection of the banning of steroids was that the main reason was an animal welfare issue ( and I can attest to the truth in that, as I've witnessed a case or two).

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like and like it or not there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

Because whether it's tuf or not, the rules state none in the horses system when you are competing ( I honestly thought none fullstop and will check as best I can).

So mate it's not Mark and I making the rules, simply saying they are there for everbody and if you want to play russian roulette then do so knowing the consequences, because tuf or not Bill, if one horse is going around with steroids in his system and the others are not then he has an unfair and illegal advantage over the others...I'd call that cheating, you mate can call it what you like.
Cheers,
Dan

[Thevoiceofreason]

G'day Bill,
I can be wrong...I just can't remember the last time it happened :D, my recollection of the banning of steroids was that the main reason was an animal welfare issue ( and I can attest to the truth in that, as I've witnessed a case or two).

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like and like it or not there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

Because whether it's tuf or not, the rules state none in the horses system when you are competing ( I honestly thought none fullstop and will check as best I can).

So mate it's not Mark and I making the rules, simply saying they are there for everbody and if you want to play russian roulette then do so knowing the consequences, because tuf or not Bill, if one horse is going around with steroids in his system and the others are not then he has an unfair and illegal advantage over the others...I'd call that cheating, you mate can call it what you like.
Cheers,
Dan

Dan

No issue with any of that my point being the call for out of comp testing is a waste of money in the fight against steroid use and most of the positives in NSW.

[Triple V]

The best bit is VVV unlike us poor plebs you can afford it.

[VVV] A few weeks back there I found that I had dropped a fair old slab while I was crook with the Flu...around 10kg which came as a shock...but thanks to staffies after work (a pint or two of Guinness) I am putting it back on again. I'll be a fat bastard again before you know it. ;)

[Triple V]

Putting that aside, anyone using steroids on a horse in work is asking for a painful outcome as there is no guaranteed time frame for their leaving the horses system...sort of a russian roulette if you like....

[VVV] G'day Dan,
If used recklessly or carelessly, yes but otherwise not so.
I am quite certain they are being & will continue to be widely used in both equine codes and right across the length & breadth of both AUS & NZ and that in the vast majority of instances they're used for well and truly above board, well intentioned purposes & in the vast majority of cases without issues as far as pre/post race testing is concerned.
There are a whole range of factors which would have a huge bearing on the outcome of a test. Depends on what sort of steroid is given, if it is an oil or water based one, how much of it is given, when & how often it is given and what the sex/physical state (as in gelded or not) of the horse in question happens to be. On the sex aspect, I hadn't really thought about them being used on fillies & mares however for obvious reasons I expect fillies and mares have a lower assigned threshold to the geldings & entires and that an overtly high testosterone level would stand out like the proverbial Dog's crackers.

[dizzy]

[VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[Triple V]

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[VVV] Yeh? At the risk of having to go & look around in the kitchen for a sealed container & in the garage for a nutting knife...that's contrary to my understanding of it all Dot.
If the testosterone threshold for entires is X...then what is it for/does it say about geldings & for that matter fillies & mares? If that's the case then by virtue of fillies and mares also naturally producing some testosterone of their own, they would have to be assigned a higher threshold than then geldings, would they not?
That doesn't make any sense.

[Danno]

[VVV] Yeh? At the risk of having to go & look around in the kitchen for a sealed container & in the garage for a nutting knife...that's contrary to my understanding of it all Dot.
If the testosterone threshold for entires is X...then what is it for/does it say about geldings & for that matter fillies & mares? If that's the case then by virtue of fillies and mares also naturally producing some testosterone of their own, they would have to be assigned a higher threshold than then geldings, would they not?
That doesn't make any sense.

Ha ha Ha Jamie looks like Dot's got you by the short and curlies, it is fact Jamie that the boldenone threshold applies to entires ONLY as it is a naturally occurring substance in entires only.
I reckon Mark or Lee or Jett get the job but........

[Triple V]

dan

i will stand corrected but this is this misunderstanding throughout this thread steroids are not banned, all this rubbish about out of competition testing finding substances and cheats is just not right.
[vvv] as i understand it, that is the case vor. They are not banned, not only are they not banned, they have long been and continue to be widely available and widely used for a variety of purposes.

of all the swabs i can recall in the the last 4 years in nsw and there have been plenty i would say about 100 only 2 would have caused a problem with out of comp testing the epo and roy roots jrn one.
[vvv] yes.

steroids are sweet to use under vet advice and plenty do and from the sates leading vets and if you and mark do not like it tuff.
[vvv] testify brother bill. Where have you been all day?

i do not think it will ever change the vast majority of those positive swabs were tco2....... Bi carb because its cheap and effective ..
[vvv] there is a box of arm & hammer in our kitchen cupboard.


out of competition test every horse in the state every week if you want will not get rid of bicarb or steroids because neither is banned out of competition and i doubt ever will be.
[vvv] agree.

so called drug free racing is a myth because we need therapeutic drugs to keep horses racing.
[vvv] incidentally, you forgot to blow 'charge' on the bugel before you rode over the crest of the hill.

example in nearly every jurisdiction in the world treatment for ulcers is allowed because so many horses suffer from them...eiph (bleeding) is a far more common up to 95% in some studies and a bigger problem a drug treatment for this will eventually be permitted (no vvv not lasix well i hope not too tricky) but nevertheless a treatment.
[vvv] eiph is without doubt the single biggest animal welfar issue both equine codes face and yet it is the sleeper of the century. Nobody pays it any attention.

by all means get rid of the cheats but please understand drugs and treatment of racing horses with them is needed to keep the industry alive.
[vvv] can i get a witness! Testify once again brother bill.

every positive swab is not someone deliberately cheating
[vvv] a feeling of overwhelming joy fills my heart. This is just too good to be true. Am i in an episode of the twlight zone? Where are rod serling & vic morrow?


vvv

[Triple V]

Ha ha Ha Jamie looks like Dot's got you by the short and curlies, it is fact Jamie that the boldenone threshold applies to entires ONLY as it is a naturally occurring substance in entires only.
I reckon Mark or Lee or Jett get the job but........

[VVV] That may well be the case Dan...I am not relishing the idea of the nutting knife...I might instead go with a ring... however I'd like to know exactly what the rules state...as it what level is applicable to each group.
I am pretty sure geldings would still have some sort of a natural level...and they do not end up totally sans testosterone for the rest of their lives as a result of being two stones light. I always thought that Gelding merely serves to considerably drop testosterone levels..and that fillies & mares also have some natural level of testosterone. I've certainly been under that impression since the rules were changed some time ago now.

[Triple V]

I'll call you on that bet VVV. I'll take your "Jatz crackers" delivered in a seeled, never to be opened container duly delivered by yourself to Bankstown. I nominate Mark, Lee, Dan or Jett to supervise their removal and installation into said container.

Do pray tell how geldings can be treated with Boldonone with impunity from testing when the threshold level in geldings is ZERO? Yes VVV thats right the threshold level for geldings for Boldonone is ZERO. Boldonone is a prohibited substance in geldings because as you point out they are sans the "tackle" that creates it naturally. The threshold quoted in the rules is for male horses other then geldings.

[VVV] Hey Dot, you're wrong. Geldings must indeed have a threshold also as geldings do indeed continue to produce Testosterone...old mate the adrenal gland sees to that. Jatz remain safe. Sealed container back in the kitchen. Nutting knife is back in the tool box. ;)

[Lethal]

United States Racing
ANABOLIC STEROID RULE (THOROUGHBRED)
810 KAR 1:018 Medication; testing procedures; prohibited practices.
Section 9.
1)The presence of exogenous anabolic steroids ("AAS") is banned in a horse THAT IS RACING.The detection xxxxxxxxxxxxxx after the horse has been entered shall constitute a violation.

2) The detection xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. For the purposes of this rule, the following are deemed to be the naturally occurring physiological levels.

)a) Boldenone in male horses other than geldings;-15ng/ml in urine.NO Boldenone SHALL BE PERMITTED IN GELDINGS OR FEMALE HORSES.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/start.cfm?horse_id=546015

A gelding who started in a fillies races a 2 and 3yo!!!

[Triple V]

That's interesting but that doesn't help me much Lee as it is apparently an extraction from a US TB rule book.
I want to know what our rule says here for Australian Harness Racing so I'll go have look & see if I can find it.
In the interim I asked a Vet mate of mine and he said that both geldings and female horses will always have some level of Testosterone in their blood. Geldings will have a steady one by way of it being secreted from their adrenal glands and fillies and mares have varying levels by way of peaks occuring both at point of oestrus & then again a couple of weeks prior to the next point of oestrus, both of which will apparently occur during their normal cycles. That being the case then a zero level of Testosterone allowed at any time for either geldings or fillies & mares seems to be at odds with nature?

Added bit following

BINGO!
Here are what appear to be the applicable rules.
Interestingly here Testosterone & Boldenone are dealt with seperately.
I've always thought they were largely one & the same thing, if not the same.
Anyone care to decipher this?

From the HRA wesbite...

(d) In male horses, other than geldings, 5a-estrane-3b, 17a-diol in urine (including both the free substance and that liberated from conjugates) at a concentration equal to or less than that of 5(10)-estrene-3b, 17a-diol in urine (including both the free substance and that liberated from its conjugates).

(g) Testosterone (including both free testosterone and testosterone liberated from its conjugates):
(i) in geldings: at a concentration of 20 micrograms per litre in urine.
(ii) in fillies and mares: at a concentration of 55 micrograms per litre in urine.
(iii) in fillies and mares that have been notified as pregnant so as to comply with Rule 103B at any concentration.

(i) Boldenone in male horses other than geldings, (including both free boldenone and boldenone liberated from its conjugates) at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine.

[Triple V]

http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/start.cfm?horse_id=546015

A gelding who started in a fillies races a 2 and 3yo!!!


[VVV] A few years back there were a couple of 'mares' in Canada that raced fillies/mares for quite some time before a chromosome test found them to be XY's and they were forced to race the boys thereon. As rare as it is, interestingly they were also quite closely related, I think they were cousins or something like that.

[dizzy]

Testosterone and Boldonone are not the same in the rules VVV, it is as simple as that. I'll have to check with the medical people I know but I don't believe this is one of those "blood is not part of the cardio vascular system" anomalies perculiar to racing.


I'm sure a pair of rusty tinsnips would do the job, I have a pair if you cant find any, anytime in the morning at Bankstown for delivery would be acceptable to me.

And Bill anobolic steroids can be used under vet advice, but doesn't the fact that no vet has stepped forward to take responsibility for prescribing Boldonone to Mach Wiper and Karloo Kix strike you then as "odd"?

[aussiebreno]

Dizzy, if you do prematurely cut VVVs manhood off make sure to check if he is still producing testosterone. You will find even though he is now gelded he would still produce testosterone, just like a gelded horse.

[Triple V]

This is also interesting. From a pdf on a US based racing medications website.

Of the four substances, namely testosterone, boldenone, nandrolone, and stanzolol, the first three are naturally occurring, also known as endogenous, in the horse.
Testosterone is present in intact males, gelded males, and fillies while nandrolone and boldenone are naturally occurring in both intact and gelded males. As with all drugs, withdrawal times are specific to the formulation.
As a group, anabolic steroids stay around for a long time, longer than any other group of drugs used in racing. Trainers should be looking at a minimum of 30 days with the water-based anabolic steroids, such as stanozolol (Winstrol) and aqueous testosterone.
The oil-based anabolic steroids, such as Equipoise


boldenone), Durabolin (nandrolone) and testosterone, will need a minimum of 45 days.

[dizzy]

Dizzy, if you do prematurely cut VVVs manhood off make sure to check if he is still producing testosterone. You will find even though he is now gelded he would still produce testosterone, just like a gelded horse.

Brenno I have no interest in VVV testosterone levels gelded or not, my interest is in his claim that trainers across the country are administering boldonone to geldings right across the country with impunity from the rules. Testosterone is not Boldonone, and the Boldonone threshold in the rules for geldings is zero

[Lethal]

More of NO SUCH THING AS

HKJK
Prohibited Substances

Rule 136.(1) For the purposes of these rules the following are prohibited substances:-

(i) Substances capable of xxxxxxxxxxx
etc

(iii) Masking Agents

(2) Prohibited substances below the following thresholds are not actionable:-

Boldenone................0.015 microgram free and conjugated boldenone per millilitre in urine from MALE HORSES ( other than geldings)

Testosterone............0.02 microgram free and conjugated testosterone per millilitre in urine from geldings, or
0.055 microgram xxxxxxxxxxxx from fillies & mares (unless in foal)
As an aside~ Horses Don't Inject themselves.

Rule 139. Any person commits an offence against these Rules if found to to have administered or caused to be administered a prohibited substance in a horse.

[Triple V]

Brenno I have no interest in VVV testosterone levels gelded or not, my interest is in his claim that trainers across the country are administering boldonone to geldings right across the country with impunity from the rules. Testosterone is not Boldonone, and the Boldonone threshold in the rules for geldings is zero

[VVV] Geeze, you sure know how to hurt a guy Dot.
I don't think I've ever felt more rejected than I do right now. I offer you your very own pair of Jatz crackers, namely mine, & you turn around and knock me back. :(
Seriously though, can you point to the section of/words within the HRA rules where it actually says that the Boldenone threshold for geldings is in fact zero? I can't find it.
I just went and cut and pasted and posted what appeared to be the applicables from the HRA website. Is there a further piece there that applies to geldings which I have missed?
All I can see is that it says, in male horses other than geldings?
Is that perhaps a rule by inference as opposed to it being stated in black & white...you know, what the reader happens to read into it as opposed to what it actually says? What am I missing?
The school of thought here is that if it is as the rule states 'at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine' then, a by default a gelding...sans his Jatz, could still be be given a dose of boldenone that comes in under that 15 micrograms & effectively it skates because no threshold appears to have been mentioned anywhere.
All it says as far as I can see is 'other than geldings'.
If it is as you suggest and this is simply another example of a badly worded rule ala the inspired blood versus cardiovascular system defence mounted by Geoff Small's Law Talkin Guy then I can hear Lionel Hutzs across the country who's practices defend such racing transgressions already writing that one down on their memo pads.

[Lethal]

Hey Look, we just earned a $1

[Greg Hando]

Hi Greg . I was told that the horse was given to a prominent trainer out west and couldn't get hot . He was spelled after the pony trot . Pony trots are run every month at Newcastle , so we might see you there and boldenone is used if you want an improved performance . It achieves an increased level of natural EPO and gives the horse an increased appetite as well as building muscle . You can work them harder than would be normal therefore achieving a much higher level of fitness . Steroids are prescribed to help a horse heal after a severe injury or to pick them up when ill and won't eat . Not when they're winning races .
Thank's Mark for your info much appreciated and i looked that horse up Steve Turnbull had him i think.

[Triple V]

Hey Look, we just earned a $1

[VVV] You're writing your own jokes again I see. :rolleyes:
An inability or an unwillingness to express oneself beyond the extent of that which is unfortunately displayed weekly on 'The Footy Show' is no great claim to fame, Lee.

[Lethal]

Another $1

[mark diegutis]

Hey Lee , thats a dollar each , remember we're going halves and Jaimie I've just sharpened up the old Joseph Rogers and I wanna knock out those jatz crackers REAL BAD !!!

[doinmabest]

Is it just me or is the constant reference to Triple's "niagara falls" becoming a tad scary...... Lol

[Danno]

Is it just me or is the constant reference to Triple's "niagara falls" becowing a tad scary...... Lol

Scary for triple thats for sure, Mark sounds fair Dinkum!!!

[Greg Hando]

Mark,

I am sorry if you found my comments in relation to Luke Mccarthy driving 3 group 1 winners as offensive.
Under the rules, whether they be right or wrong, he was permitted to drive and participate in that day on a stay of proceedings. In the excitement of calling group one races I may of gone off in saying what I did but they were not designed to offend you or anyone else....

Didn't offend me Fred i nearly fell off the chair laughing. Keep up the good work.

[dizzy]

[VVV] Geeze, you sure know how to hurt a guy Dot.
I don't think I've ever felt more rejected than I do right now. I offer you your very own pair of Jatz crackers, namely mine, & you turn around and knock me back. :(
Seriously though, can you point to the section of/words within the HRA rules where it actually says that the Boldenone threshold for geldings is in fact zero? I can't find it.
I just went and cut and pasted and posted what appeared to be the applicables from the HRA website. Is there a further piece there that applies to geldings which I have missed?
All I can see is that it says, in male horses other than geldings?
Is that perhaps a rule by inference as opposed to it being stated in black & white...you know, what the reader happens to read into it as opposed to what it actually says? What am I missing?
The school of thought here is that if it is as the rule states 'at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine' then, a by default a gelding...sans his Jatz, could still be be given a dose of boldenone that comes in under that 15 micrograms & effectively it skates because no threshold appears to have been mentioned anywhere.
All it says as far as I can see is 'other than geldings'.
If it is as you suggest and this is simply another example of a badly worded rule ala the inspired blood versus cardiovascular system defence mounted by Geoff Small's Law Talkin Guy then I can hear Lionel Hutzs across the country who's practices defend such racing transgressions already writing that one down on their memo pads.

Not so fast VVV I said I'm not interested in your testosterone levels but your nuts ARE mine, though you will be disappointed no doubt to learn that they will not be taking pride of place in my collection. It's quite extensive you know after 30 years in a male dominated industry, I have left and rights and more then a few pairs. Mark I'm happy for you to complete the task, though a tad disappointed that you have chosen to sharpen your implement of choice.

VVV the rules are quite clear if you actually choose to read them.

188A (1)The following are prohibited substances...
(b)Substances falling within, but not limited to, the following categories.....
then 7 down is "anabolic agents" ( NB Boldonone is an anabolic agent)
then further down
(2) the following substances when present at or below the levels setout are excepted from the provisions of sub rule (1)
then 9 down is
(i)Boldenone in male horses other then geldings,(including both free boldenone and boldenone liberated from conjugates) at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine.
190(1) A horse shall be presented for a race free of prohibited substances

So that means if your horse is a gelding then Boldenone (an anabolic agent) is a prohibited substance. The threshold level for ALL prohibited substances bar those that are listed in sub rule 2 as being excepted from sub rule 1 is ZERO.

The only thing you are missing VVV is your NUTS, as I said previously they are MINE!

[Danno]

Not so fast VVV I said I'm not interested in your testosterone levels but your nuts ARE mine, though you will be disappointed no doubt to learn that they will not be taking pride of place in my collection. It's quite extensive you know after 30 years in a male dominated industry, I have left and rights and more then a few pairs. Mark I'm happy for you to complete the task, though a tad disappointed that you have chosen to sharpen your implement of choice.

VVV the rules are quite clear if you actually choose to read them.

188A (1)The following are prohibited substances...
(b)Substances falling within, but not limited to, the following categories.....
then 7 down is "anabolic agents" ( NB Boldonone is an anabolic agent)
then further down
(2) the following substances when present at or below the levels setout are excepted from the provisions of sub rule (1)
then 9 down is
(i)Boldenone in male horses other then geldings,(including both free boldenone and boldenone liberated from conjugates) at a mass concentration of 15 micrograms per litre in urine.
190(1) A horse shall be presented for a race free of prohibited substances

So that means if your horse is a gelding then Boldenone (an anabolic agent) is a prohibited substance. The threshold level for ALL prohibited substances bar those that are listed in sub rule 2 as being excepted from sub rule 1 is ZERO.

The only thing you are missing VVV is your NUTS, as I said previously they are MINE!

Hey Mark and Lee,
forget your other stuff at $1 a go, you can sell tickets to this event and with the right marketing........geez a few bob to be made,of course triple will want HIS CUT!

[Triple V]

Dot...I'm starting to get a rather uncomfortable twinge in my crotch area :eek: so I hand on heart promise to call the Stewards in the morning and clarify this. Your reading of those rules doesn't make much sense to me because nowhere does it specifically state in black & white the obvious, spelt out. Call me a simpleton who's looking to save his Jatz from an all out assault if you must. Allow me one last roll of the dice.
On that general score, I do wonder, as things pertain to your reading of that rule....has anyone given any thought to the horses currently racing that are officially noted as being colts/entires but are actually geldings and have been for some time?
How, if at all, are they ever identified at point of testing in order to allow for systemic vs additional boldenone?
Does anyone show up and with a warm & gentle hand reach in underneath in order to locate...or conversely make note of the lack of that...which, in my case, both Dot and Mark seem so very keen to get their mits on? :confused:
Does the Swabbing Steward 'go the grope' in order to confirm Jatz or sans Jatz?
Another reason I ask is that now and again out at Menangle I've seen Dennis Wilson standing quietly in cross ties and with a rug over him and that in and of itself makes me think that maybe there is someone who does actually does do this and that from time to time there is some level of intentional Jatz handling involved. :rolleyes:

[mark diegutis]

Sorry Jaimie . No stays or appeals for you . Dot will have her trophy's and , Ok , Dot I'll ditch the Joseph Rogers and we'll just pop em out like 2 festered pimples

[Triple V]

As stated last night, I rang this morning. Stewards confirm Dot's reading of said rules. Further he suggested that I hang my keyboard up which wasn't very supportive of him. My bad one for thinking boldenone and testosterone were pretty much one & the same.
Mark, that's a bit harsh. They're more like a couple of sizeable rockmelons have a fight under a chaff bag so you'd best bring a machette...and make sure your hands are warm. :p

[racefair]

Thanks for putting your hand up on that one Jamie. I felt like it was another red herring from you anyway. There's not much that you don't have expertise or an opinion on.
Dots reading of the rules is the way that most people interpreted them. You seem to be missing the point on a few things and getting really upset. I think that you could be letting your emotions get in the way of your judgement and that's a good example of same.
You took a crack at Richard Freedman at the start of this thread, however his comments seem to be true that drug testing is not catching or stopping the cheats. Luke cheated with Boldenone and is still operating and will continue to do so directly or through his associates. It was introduced endogenously and it raises more questions when Karloo Kix goes on it at the same time.

[Triple V]

I wasn't have a crack at his comments...for the most part I think he is probably right about a lot of what he says...rather I was having a crack at the credibility person who made them, at him apparently seeking to take the moral highground especially so post his brother's/their stable's saga with Encosta De Lago & that in the years prior to that Lee had also been done for substituting a horse at an official barrier trial. It was the old living in glass houses and throwing stones routine for mine.

[Lethal]

We all might might wonder why it was so important to 'Shoot the messenger' rather than discuss the message.

[Triple V]

I'd have thought it obvious Lee.
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...or something along those lines.
For old mate to claim the moral highground on this one is pretty rugged for mine.
Maybe he's just got early onset dimentia and his memory is not what it used to be ?
I'm getting to know what that's like myself.

[Lethal]

You said it 'dimentia' sic

[Triple V]

Indeed. Proof Reading eh? Who'd have thought? Looks like you've finally found something you're good at Lee.

[aussiebreno]

Going back to what Freedman said (although I didn't hear the interview)...was it really ground-breaking at all?
Did anybody really think that drug testing alone would stop each and every drug cheat. Still, it does make a big difference and we are better off doing it than not doing it at all as the OP suggested.

[mark diegutis]

Hi guys its Trish using Marks site.
I found this.... To me & how its written, says that steroids are banned. I thought they were. Im sure VVV or VOR will explain...... Its on a site called The Jockey Club.

One last comment on a happier note: Treve Williams is an Australian veterinarian. He is of similar stature in Australia as Gary Lavin or Bobby Copelan are in the U.S. Until about 15 years ago, Australia allowed anabolic steroids and then moved, as we are doing today, to ban them. Right after John Kimmel made his comments Treve stood up and described to the same audience how he had fought the Australian anabolic steroid ban tooth and nail. He was sure racing couldn't survive without anabolic steroids, but when anabolic steroids were banned in Australia, Australian racing and the horses never missed a beat. Thank you for your attention.

[Lethal]

Trish, one of the reasons that racing progressed after the ban, was because horses were able to race on for many for more years than with steroids.
It was because the damage to their bone structure (calcium deficiency) was no longer present. Prior to the ban it was most unlikely that a 14yo horse was still able to race and be competitive. You now see many of them not the least Mustard and one other old timer you might remember RTR.

[2minuteman]

Sorry Jaimie . No stays or appeals for you . Dot will have her trophy's and , Ok , Dot I'll ditch the Joseph Rogers and we'll just pop em out like 2 festered pimples
Obviously a lover of great cutlery,got the castrating model of course.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Hi guys its Trish using Marks site.
I found this.... To me & how its written, says that steroids are banned. I thought they were. Im sure VVV or VOR will explain...... Its on a site called The Jockey Club.

One last comment on a happier note: Treve Williams is an Australian veterinarian. He is of similar stature in Australia as Gary Lavin or Bobby Copelan are in the U.S. Until about 15 years ago, Australia allowed anabolic steroids and then moved, as we are doing today, to ban them. Right after John Kimmel made his comments Treve stood up and described to the same audience how he had fought the Australian anabolic steroid ban tooth and nail. He was sure racing couldn't survive without anabolic steroids, but when anabolic steroids were banned in Australia, Australian racing and the horses never missed a beat. Thank you for your attention.

Trish

Steroids are a prohibited substance on race day no debate there .....my point earlier is and remains their use is not banned, vets can and do still prescribe their use in both harness and thoroughbred horses in racing in Australia and are neither in breach of any laws or racing rules. There were some calls earlier in this thread calling for more out of competition testing to help control steroid use, simply that will not happen because their use is permitted just not too close to raceday.

[mark diegutis]

Trish

Steroids are a prohibited substance on race day no debate there .....my point earlier is and remains their use is not banned, vets can and do still prescribe their use in both harness and thoroughbred horses in racing in Australia and are neither in breach of any laws or racing rules. There were some calls earlier in this thread calling for more out of competition testing to help control steroid use, simply that will not happen because their use is permitted just not too close to raceday.

Hi Bill . Just as a matter of interest , is there a period before race day that they are not allowed to be present or is it Ok as long as the're clear race day . If thats the case then some trainers would base their training regime around the use of steroids and what about EPO . Does EPO come under the same restrictions or lack there of . Thanks Mark

[aussiebreno]

Hi Bill . Just as a matter of interest , is there a period before race day that they are not allowed to be present or is it Ok as long as the're clear race day . If thats the case then some trainers would base their training regime around the use of steroids and what about EPO . Does EPO come under the same restrictions or lack there of . Thanks Mark
@TripleV. It's going to be one long haul before everybody firstly understands the difference between therepautic and performance enhancing and then accepts it.

I'll think you will like this bit though. Ray Hadley gave a great analogy on the footy show last night (a show you've previously bagged!!). In harness racing terms his analogy was that a therepeutic drug only allows Oscar Lane to run like Oscar Lane, but a performance enhancing drug allows Oscar Lane to run like Christian Cullen.

Off the point of the topic, but Mark's comments reminded me.

[dizzy]

Hi Bill . Just as a matter of interest , is there a period before race day that they are not allowed to be present or is it Ok as long as the're clear race day . If thats the case then some trainers would base their training regime around the use of steroids and what about EPO . Does EPO come under the same restrictions or lack there of . Thanks Mark

Mark

Go to www.harness.org.au (http://www.harness.org.au) on the right is a heading "search", click on search, then rules, type in 188 and it will take you to the relevant section

[dizzy]

@TripleV. It's going to be one long haul before everybody firstly understands the difference between therepautic and performance enhancing and then accepts it.

I'll think you will like this bit though. Ray Hadley gave a great analogy on the footy show last night (a show you've previously bagged!!). In harness racing terms his analogy was that a therepeutic drug only allows Oscar Lane to run like Oscar Lane, but a performance enhancing drug allows Oscar Lane to run like Christian Cullen.

Off the point of the topic, but Mark's comments reminded me.

Brenno that will help out some but the problem is the same substance can either be therapeutic or performance enhancing depending on the circumstances of its use. For example if the vet had given Franco Stalker boldonone after he returned from Randwick Equine Centre an emaciated wreck after they surgically repaired (and excellently) his fractured pastern then the use would definately have been therapeutic, but if I'd used it without an appropriate script from a vet in the lead up to a race, particularly in conjunction with a banned masking, sorry "interference" agent, then there is little doubt its use would be described as performance enhancing.

[dizzy]

Trish

Steroids are a prohibited substance on race day no debate there .....my point earlier is and remains their use is not banned, vets can and do still prescribe their use in both harness and thoroughbred horses in racing in Australia and are neither in breach of any laws or racing rules. There were some calls earlier in this thread calling for more out of competition testing to help control steroid use, simply that will not happen because their use is permitted just not too close to raceday.

And my question to you Bill remains that if Boldonone had been prescribed to Karloo Kix and Machwiper by a vet why has no vet come forward to take responsibility for as VVV calls it a "therapeutic overage" and both trainers publicly claimed they didn't know what Boldonone was?

I can think of 4 likely explanations for this
1/ the boldonone was obtained and administered without veterinary advice by someone connected to the respective stables.
2/ the boldonone was obtained from a dodgy vet but better to have the trainer take the fall with HRNSW then identify the vet and risk them loosing their veterinary licence thus putting an end to further supplies.
3/ an unknown person entered the stable and administered the boldonone, but neither trainer has suggested that to my knowledge.
4/ the positive was the result of a contamination issue with a feed supplement, don't think either camp has put that forward-worked for a trainer in India last year but not for the other 2 caught with him!


And no VVV it isn't Stephen King I read.

[teecee]

@TripleV. It's going to be one long haul before everybody firstly understands the difference between therepautic and performance enhancing and then accepts it.

I'll think you will like this bit though. Ray Hadley gave a great analogy on the footy show last night (a show you've previously bagged!!). In harness racing terms his analogy was that a therepeutic drug only allows Oscar Lane to run like Oscar Lane, but a performance enhancing drug allows Oscar Lane to run like Christian Cullen.

Off the point of the topic, but Mark's comments reminded me.

I dont know that it is that much off topic.
IMO it is a great analogy and filtering the vast amount of side show comments the real point of the issue.

[broncobrad]

I dont know that it is that much off topic.
IMO it is a great analogy and filtering the vast amount of side show comments the real point of the issue.

Teecee

The by play on this topic has been rivetting, especially for one member who stands to lose something so near and dear...and if the bloodhounds have their way, there is going to be a lot of screaming, crying and bloodspatter...you are in my prayers VVV.

[dizzy]

Teecee

The by play on this topic has been rivetting, especially for one member who stands to lose something so near and dear...and if the bloodhounds have their way, there is going to be a lot of screaming, crying and bloodspatter...you are in my prayers VVV.

Brad I fully expect VVV to stand by his bet, I'm not as forgiving as Jett and believe VVV confession is much like Shannon Wonsons EPO guilty plea, it only came after all other avenues were exhausted. However now that VVV has informed us of their impressive size I'm sure he will actually be relieved to lose them, I imagine the chaffing must be horrendous, and I'll give him the option of delivering them not in a sealed container but mounted where upon I will enter them in Bankstowns inaugarul Art Exhibition next month giving VVV full credit of course.

Jett I do understand what you are saying though, VVV does seem to let his emotions, and what he would like to be, over rule his judgement in many cases posting here. The other option as I see it would be VVV himself at times would return a positive swab-to a mind altering substance!

[dizzy]

VVV have I got this right-you have a problem with the "credibility" of Richard Freedman stating publicly, after approximetely 10 years now working in the media, that drug testing alone wont catch all the cheats because his brother 16 years ago had some contoversy over Encosta De Lago TCO2 levels, something that as you have been at pains to point out can be achieved by something from the supermarket, before a race whereby ultimately the horse was permitted to start no doubt by the Chairman of Stewards at the time?

But you don't have a problem with the "credibility" of a current harness trainer who has had a horse return a positive post race swab to a substance that at the very least the trainer should have been using under vet advice yet there is no vet to take resposibility for the "overage". Seems an awful lot like a case of double standards or seeing what you want to see.

As a matter of interest when you say a 1st, 2nd and 3rd test did you mean a test of 3 vials taken at the same time or 3 test on samples taken at different time? (I was in Europe then pursuing other interests)

[teecee]

Teecee

The by play on this topic has been rivetting, especially for one member who stands to lose something so near and dear...and if the bloodhounds have their way, there is going to be a lot of screaming, crying and bloodspatter...you are in my prayers VVV.

Brad.. To some it may be rivetting but others are telling me it is something else. Indeed some are urging Zorro to take some action..if you know what I mean.
My own view really is that some posts are very close to the edge with the chop coming very soon from an unexpected direction and Jaimie wont be the victim.

[broncobrad]

Hey Zorro...I am sure the light-hearted banter should be taken with a grain of salt as most posters would agree. But alas, I feel you are sharpening your sword as I type. There are definitely two distinct lines of thinking on this subject and all posters know what the boundarys are with their comments. There is still a lot more to be said on this topic. As long as they keep the libel out of it, can we be spared the snip?

[Lethal]

Brad, I think you have stated the thinking that occupies the minds of everyone who takes this subject seriously. Without robust discussion, those that are apologists for people who are prepared to push the boundaries of the current rules will try to shout down any opposition. With a loud enough voice change can happen, albeit slowly. Don't give up.

[Greg Hando]

Ibelieve Karloo Kix vet's record's were looked at and he had never even treated the horse even for a snotty nose. While on the testing side i believe you can't get a DNA test on the positive samples to make sure it is from the said horse's it is supposed to be from.

[mark diegutis]

The stewards were tough back then, but it made me laugh.


But doping in horse racing is a century-old tradition, going at least as far back as a case in England in the nineteenth century in which a man was executed for drugging a racehorse with arsenic

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/21/frog-juice-horse-racings-new-doping-scandal/#ixzz21EMIzWzc

Cheers
Trish

[Thevoiceofreason]

Hi Bill . Just as a matter of interest , is there a period before race day that they are not allowed to be present or is it Ok as long as the're clear race day . If thats the case then some trainers would base their training regime around the use of steroids and what about EPO . Does EPO come under the same restrictions or lack there of . Thanks Mark
Mark and Dot

The rules governing out of competition testing are set out below the overall race day prohibited substance rules I have set them out below.

I am nether a chemist or a vet, however it is pretty clear these rules do not include steroids.... out of competition testing is a horse of entirely different color and as I have said before and am happy to be corrected there are only 2 race day positives in the past 4 years that think would have been caught under this rule if they were tested out of competition.

Needless to say they are not Barry Lew or Luke McCarthy.

If I was making the decision to test 200 horses per year out of competition, or an extra 200 race day winners I think the answer is clear and extra 200 race day winners would bring the testing procedure in NSW to somewhere near where it needs to be... but to run out one of my well worn phrases "everybody wants integrity no one wants to fund it"

Out of Competition Testing

190A. (1) When a sample taken at any time from a horse being trained by a licensed trainer has detected in it any prohibited substance specified in sub-rule (2), or metabolites, artifacts or isomers of such prohibited substance, the trainer and any other person who was in charge of such horse at the relevant time may be punished unless he satisfies the Stewards that he had taken all proper precautions to prevent the administration of such prohibited substance.

(2) For the purpose of sub-rule (2) the following substances are specified as prohibited substances:-

- Anileridine
- Etorphine
- Dipipanone
- Endorphins
- Human erythropoietin, darbepoetin alfa
- Human insulin, bovine insulin and porcine / canine insulin
- Diacetylmorphine (heroin), cocaine, cannabinoids and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD)
- Amphetamines including amphetamine, methylamphetamine
- Methylenedioxyamphetamine and methylenedioxymethamphetamine

[Danno]

The stewards were tough back then, but it made me laugh.


But doping in horse racing is a century-old tradition, going at least as far back as a case in England in the nineteenth century in which a man was executed for drugging a racehorse with arsenic

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/21/frog-juice-horse-racings-new-doping-scandal/#ixzz21EMIzWzc

Cheers
Trish

Frog Juice eh? probably helps them jump out a bit quicker? give the opposition the slip? Gotta be careful with the dosing you don't want them to croak?

[Triple V]

A trainer from these parts got a Bufotenin positive years ago when The Dodger was NSW Chief Steward. It was blamed on...wait for it...dear old mate, the trusty & very much loved paddock fodder grass...Phalaris. At the time it was worked out that, given it is present for a relatively short period of growing time & at a max. concentration of around 0.005% by weight...in order for a horse to ingest enough Bufotenin to show up in a swab as a direct result of eating Phalaris it would have to have eaten an amount which was approaching a semi-trailer load within a 36hr periods. Nevertheless, the defence was accepted...and a warning went out to Trainers to be careful with racing stock grazing Phalaris. What a complete and utter farce that was. Must have been just sheer dumb luck that despite the numerous ensuing seasons and despite all the Phalaris that has come, been grazed & gone again only to once again return and be grazed & so on...not a single Bufotenin positive has surfaced? Bugger me eh? That warning about not letting racehorses graze Phalaris really had an impact huh? :rolleyes:

[Lethal]

Jamie, my fingers are quivering as I write this but, this time you are 100% correct. Bufotenin was, and still is obtained from 'Cane Toads', amazing that no other horse has 'eaten' one since.

[Triple V]

Hey Lee, for a Bonus Point...
What is the furthest Southern extent of the Cane Toad's range?
Is it...
(a) The QLD/NSW Border
(b) Parramatta Rd/The Great Western Highway
(c) The Pheasant's Nest Bridge

[Lethal]

The answers obvious.............. (c).........and then they retreated due to the HRNSW warning.

[HISGEN65]

hi all
jeezzz where do you start when talking about cheats in the industry??..one thing that I will say is that in my humble opinion
the penaltys are way too lenient.It seems before you know it your again racing against the same proven & convicted cheats
that have just been sent on holidays..so I am guessing that some of these dirt bags feel its "worth the risk"
This leads me to the next thing thats shits me off..it doesnt take rocket science to see where alot of these horses get transferred to
once someone goes for a holiday.This again adds the notion that its "worth the risk" as they will still be pulling the strings anyways.
Its like anything in life...if the penalties & consequences for ones actions far outweigh the risk & the ensueing rewards most will think twice
So to answer the original posters question "Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats"
no they wont....but the heavier penalties & or consequences may

[Triple V]

My biggest issue with the penalties as they stand here in NSW is the relative harshness of the bottom end and the relative leniency of the top end.
12 months for a Bute overage, 5 years for the presence of EPO. That is a scale that is way, waaaaay too compressed. 3 months at the bottom end and 10 years at the top end would, for mine, represent justice.
I don't know exactly how the present spread of penaties were arrived at but there's one thing that appears certain. Not a whole lot of thought was given to them insofar as the comparitive seriousness of offences are concerned.

[Danno]

hi all
jeezzz where do you start when talking about cheats in the industry??..one thing that I will say is that in my humble opinion
the penaltys are way too lenient.It seems before you know it your again racing against the same proven & convicted cheats
that have just been sent on holidays..so I am guessing that some of these dirt bags feel its "worth the risk"
This leads me to the next thing thats shits me off..it doesnt take rocket science to see where alot of these horses get transferred to
once someone goes for a holiday.This again adds the notion that its "worth the risk" as they will still be pulling the strings anyways.
Its like anything in life...if the penalties & consequences for ones actions far outweigh the risk & the ensueing rewards most will think twice
So to answer the original posters question "Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats"
no they wont....but the heavier penalties & or consequences may

G'day James,
I have to say mate your post read a bit like my own thoughts, HRNSW finally introduced, IMO realistic penalties, together with an improved, but thus far not hole proof policy on how the the transfer of disqualified trainers' horses ( since the Gleeson's lets say team) might be handled to satisfactorily deal with "pretend tranfers" and people start bitching about the new penalties are too severe.... there are some who are even claiming steroid "overages" should be treated as a mere miscalculation of therapeutics...that shits me something horrible to be honest, I'm sure some will argue that just about everything is used as a "therapeutic" in order to make it all sound a bit more innocent, these same people will carry on a bit every now and then to make it sound like they do not tolerate drugs in the game but it appears to me they really only care about who gets caught and who doesn't and they design they're arguments accordingly.

James, one thing is for absolute certain, cause maths don't lie....the longer the grubs that stretch the rules spend on the sidelines, the less grubs we all have to contend with each week and I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the honest people will all agree with that statement at least.

thanks for your post, good to hear from someone who doesn't fall for the bullshit.

Cheers,
Dan

[mark diegutis]

Absolutely spot on Dan . Every single drug can be linked to a therapeutic use and its amazing how sick their horses must be to need these drugs yet still manage to run like jet engines on race day and don't you love the old war cry "I don't know how that got there" . Even when their caught red handed they havn't got the guts to stand up and apologize . Weak , skum sucking pigs .

[Triple V]

Absolutely spot on Dan . Every single drug can be linked to a therapeutic use and its amazing how sick their horses must be to need these drugs yet still manage to run like jet engines on race day and don't you love the old war cry "I don't know how that got there" . Even when their caught red handed they havn't got the guts to stand up and apologize . Weak , skum sucking pigs .

[VVV] G'day Mark,
Every single drug can be linked to a therapeutic use can it? Interesting.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the equine therapeutic uses/functions of drugs such as EPO, Methamphetamine & so on.

[dizzy]

VVV Epo is used to treat anemia assosciated with chronic renal disease as damaged kidneys may not produce enough naturally, horses have kidneys and on occasions kidney diseases, and can be treated with epo to address anemia problems. Doesn't happen often because of the costs involved and generally poor prognosis for the horse hence they are more frequently euthanised as thats legal for equine patients. Methamphetanine is used in the treatment of ADHD, chronic obesity, narcolepsy and treatment resitant depression. Not likely a horse will be diagnosed with ADHD, though I'm pretty sure I 've had a couple that behave like it, or treatment resistent depression but they do suffer from chronic obesity and narcolepsy so could be treated for these conditions with methamphetimine at the behest of a veterinarian. I don't know what "so on" is used to treat.

It may surprise you VVV but most drugs are initially created with legitimate therapeutic uses in mind, then the other uses come to light.

I find it quite interesting you are asking. Mark's anti drug stance has been consistent across all threads ands posts on this forum but yours has not. Are you planning on laying something else on the line with another "everyone is using Boldonone on geldings and getting away with it" claim?

Bill I'm am well aware that anabolic steroids are not covered in out of competition testing but I don't think the rules are so clear cut if they are detected in an out of competition test and the trainer cannot produce evidence to comply with the requirements for the recording of medications. After all possesion of anabolic steroids are only legal, in society not just harness racing, if they have been prescribed by an appropriately qualified person, in the case of for treatment for a horse that would be a vet.

[Triple V]

?????????? Geeze Dot. Renal failure and ADHD??????? Making a case for the presence of EPO and Meth in a horse? You're making my head spin. That is just insane. Are EPO and Methamphetamine recognised equine therapeutic substances ala Bute, Boldenone etc?

[mark diegutis]

Thanks for answering that one Dot . Been on night shift . Hi Jaimie . All drugs were originallly developed with therapeutic uses in mind . Drug dealers and dope heads don't have the brains or technology to develope these drugs , only reproduce them . Heroin , LSD and even pot all can be used therapeutically . The racing industry is the only sporting group that accepts drug cheating as "part of the industry" . The gallops can cope with it but its killing off harness racing and , by the way , steroid use is every bit as performance enhancing as Epo as they do the same thing and even more . Their use is just as disgusting . Why can't they just train on their merrits and then we would really see the good horsemen rise to the top , not the filthy , low life , theiving , scum sucking leaches that will reap all the silver ware on presentation night . The worst thing is that they are called "the greatest trainer" or "the best driver " . Its easy to drive like these guys . Just come out of the gate and don't stop going forward until the finish line and its SOOOO obvious !!!! .

[dizzy]

VVV in certain circumstances under the direction of a veterinary surgeon who was treating a horse for kidney disease or narcolepsy then there would be a case for the presence of EPO or Meth. It is not likely that any horse being treated for these conditions is going to be racing or tested for the use of these drugs in a racing environment at the same time but yes there would be a case for these drugs to be found, though with the cost of EPO its not likely to be used often and I don't know if a vet would use meth for narcalepsy only that it is produced under FDA approval and can be used to treat narcalepsy and other things.

Whilst deliberate administration of Meth to a race horse is abhorent the abundant use of it illegaly in the human population does make it a substance that can result in a positive swab as the result of human equine contamination, rather then any deliberate administration. After Gai's positive for cocaine it is a requirement at her stables that all stable hands and owners on entering the premises wash their hands. I doubt any harness stable is as diligent, particularly with owners.

VVV you seem to think that Bute is harmless but you do know that it can kill a horse don't you?

[mark diegutis]

Bill I'm am well aware that anabolic steroids are not covered in out of competition testing but I don't think the rules are so clear cut if they are detected in an out of competition test and the trainer cannot produce evidence to comply with the requirements for the recording of medications. After all possesion of anabolic steroids are only legal, in society not just harness racing, if they have been prescribed by an appropriately qualified person, in the case of for treatment for a horse that would be a vet.[/QUOTE]





Hi Dot, I rang the stewards & asked if a horse was out of comp tested & steroids were detected would they do anything....they said NO.
I then said if that same horse presented at the races 3 weeks later & was clean would they do anything.....they said NO.

Trish

[dizzy]

And that Trish is why drug testing and harness racing won't stop cheats. The stewards will of course never find evidence of wrong doing unless they are prepared to look.

[Lethal]

Boldenone detected in any racehorse gelding or mare can only be for one reason as blatantly explained in the link.

http://www.ibuysteroids.com/blog/medicines/equipoise-and-professional-bodybuilding-right-choice.htmlhttp://www.ibuysteroids.com/blog/medicines/equipoise-and-professional-bodybuilding-right-choice.html

The rules urgently need changing so that a horse in pre-training must be drug free for a period of time before it is cleared to race.

[dizzy]

Lee- don't forget boldonone above the threhold in entires as well.

[Lethal]

Mark,
As an aside to this, your remark about 'best driver' always had me wondering why if you worked out how best to train and drive a 'weak poofter' to win a race, then you would be described as 'lucky'. BUT if you put the 'pedal to the metal', as you described, on a horse that had 'help', then you were a GENIUS trainer/driver.. Go figure!

[mark diegutis]

Exactly right Lee and to make things worse they make it so bloody obvious by showing off up the straight . They win by 20 odd meters and have never been closer to the fence than the death seat . A few starts later they drive them totally different because they know its all wearing off . No one says anything . There's gotta be more to it .

[Lethal]

You're right on the money, drug testing has to be like the WDA, if you can't prove the provenance of of your horses' pre training then it should be banned until it has at least 12 weeks testing clear, before you are permitted to nominate (not just race)

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill I'm am well aware that anabolic steroids are not covered in out of competition testing but I don't think the rules are so clear cut if they are detected in an out of competition test and the trainer cannot produce evidence to comply with the requirements for the recording of medications. After all possesion of anabolic steroids are only legal, in society not just harness racing, if they have been prescribed by an appropriately qualified person, in the case of for treatment for a horse that would be a vet.
Dot

What you say about Vets , records ect is absolutely right no argument but I am sorry I would prefer every winner in NSW post race tested as it is in the gallops. I will bet any price you like RacingNSW did not embark on a widespread out of competition testing regime until every winner in the state was subject to a swab testing first.

No one is saying do not swab but start with the winners and perhaps beaten favorites first.

[Thevoiceofreason]

And that Trish is why drug testing and harness racing won't stop cheats. The stewards will of course never find evidence of wrong doing unless they are prepared to look.

Dot and Trish

Are you two cracking jokes the reason the stewards can not do anything is because the trainer is not in breach of the rules.

They can not say under rule 500B you are charged with using steroids and because Dot and Trish and Mark do not like it you are disqualified for 12 months.

This thread has become so stupid I will not be coerced into commenting again.

The rules are the rules, are the rules, you do not have to like them but if you play in the game you play by the rules.

If you seriously think steroid use should be barred totally .... get off this thread and do some lobbying of the vets who will ultimately make the decision... seeing it took years after the thoroughbreds did it to get ulcer treatments passed I wish you luck.

[Lethal]

If it's o/k to play by the rules (are the rules,are the rules) and then you get caught breaching (the rules) do those persons then squeal like 'stuck pigs' and absolutely deny any knowledge how 'the rules' might have been breached.

[mark diegutis]

Dot and Trish

Are you too cracking jokes the reason the stewards can not do anything is because the trainer is not in breach of the rules.

They can not say under rule 500B you are charged with using steroids and because Dot and Trish and Mark do not like it you are disqualified for 12 months.

This thread has become so stupid I will not be coerced into commenting again.

The rules are the rules, are the rules, you do not have to like them but if you play in the game you play by the rules.

If you seriously think steroid use should be barred totally .... get off this thread and do some lobbying of the vets who will ultimately make the decision... seeing it took years after the thoroughbreds did it to get ulcer treatments passed I wish you luck.

Hi Bill . All of that is understood . The rules are what need to be changed and a thread like this is a great place to start . Getting a support base , connecting people together is how the ball can start rolling . I really don't think harness racing has got years to change . If it takes years to accept what all other sports have already done then harness racing will be finished . It would be great to see it happen but we have our exit strategy in motion anyway . Most people I talk to are doing the same .

[Triple V]

Mark...
I have been banging away at this subject for longer than anyone including myself would really care to remember.
I have been pushing & pushing the case for an entire list of therapeutic thresholds to be put in place and also for quantitative testing to be instituted, neither of which we currently have.
This is because of my continuing belief that Trainers have, do and unless something is done will continue to get jammed up with positives for minute traces of accepted equine thereapeutic drugs which are quite clearly no longer present in pharmacologically active amounts. I am stunned that you cannot get your head around this.
Further to that, I am repeatedly on record as having done so over the years and across a number of Racing forums, both still active & subsequently defunct.
Ask around for confirmation. Ask the NSW Stewards both past and present. My stance on this subject goes back prior to the advent of the GHRRA, it goes back 3 name changes and beyond Tony Collins being the boss at the then NSW Harness Racing Authority.
It goes back beyond Luke McCarthy's High School years. It is by no means a recent thing in response to recent happenings, despite what you might so erronesously care to infer Mark.
Now if you've got the stones then swing them in the wind. Come right out and say so. Call me a Shill for the bad guys, call me a shonk and pony up your evidence of same. I dare you.
Otherwise, shut your pie hole. I resent the inference.
If you had instead been around for long enough or if otherwise you had done your homework thoroughly enough and bothered to ask around then you would already know this to have been the case.
Aim up on the rights and the wrongs of the subject by all means but please...don't run that Mother Duck crap at me...because mate, you are just plain wrong.

[teecee]

Whilst this thread is of interest to many in Harness racing and most have very definitive individual views on the topic posters are reminded that this is a forum using the written word in the English Language.
Some points you should remember...
What you write is there for all to see and read and is there for eternity as opposed to what you may say verbally.
Please stick to the topic and leave the personalities out of it. Some posts are becoming quite personal and as such irrelevant to the topic.
Some of the language being used in this thread is becoming more than "Colourful". When posting please give consideration to what you are writing and whether the language is appropriate to a forum of mature persons. ..i.e Can you write your opinion in a more mature / moderate manner.
Thank you

[dizzy]

Dot and Trish

Are you two cracking jokes the reason the stewards can not do anything is because the trainer is not in breach of the rules.

They can not say under rule 500B you are charged with using steroids and because Dot and Trish and Mark do not like it you are disqualified for 12 months.

This thread has become so stupid I will not be coerced into commenting again.

The rules are the rules, are the rules, you do not have to like them but if you play in the game you play by the rules.

If you seriously think steroid use should be barred totally .... get off this thread and do some lobbying of the vets who will ultimately make the decision... seeing it took years after the thoroughbreds did it to get ulcer treatments passed I wish you luck.

Bill is that a "flounce"? Actually I wasn't craking a joke at all. Trish wrote that she asked the stewards if they would do "anything" if a horse returned a positive result to an anabolic steroid in an out of competition test to which she advised that they replied "no". And that to me is appaling. I'm not saying that anyone should be charged with a made up rule because I don't like steroids but as a matter of course stewards should police the rules that they have to ensure that they are doing the best job possible for the integrity of the industry. If stewards are not going to bother to even check a trainers records to ensure that a type of drug, that is an anabolic steroid, that is well known in sport for its performance enhancing capabilities and is illegal to have without a prescription, was obtained and administered in accordance with the law/rules when it has been detected in a swab, albeit legally, then when are stewards going to check a trainers records?

Let me put it this way Bill when I'm pulled over for a random breath test the police DO NOT only start checking my bona fides after I blow a positive result. They check my identity, the validity of my licence, any out standing warrants for my arrest, the registration of my vehicle, if it has been reported stolen, if it has been used in the commision of a crime, if it is roadworthy all as a matter of course. And yes if they note the lucerne leaf that is frequently on my passenger seat then they may well ask me to step out of the vehicle and search it for evidence of drugs as well, and when they find the needle and syringe in the console that I've forgotten I guess I could well find myself going down to the station to answer some questions. And guess what Bill I haven't actually committed an offence of any kind.

And yet our stewards, who I believe are paid substantially more then our police, advised an owner upon request that they would do nothing if an out of competition test revealed the presence of an anabolic steroid!

The bottom line Bill is harness racing no longer has years left to get it right, the clock is ticking and it is getting louder all the time. You may believe that post race testing is the ultimate deterrent but my understanding is that that is no longer the case. I don't expect the authorities to use either your or my opinion but to consult the experts in the field and determine the most effective strategy which would I would think would most likely include varying propportions of post and out of competion testing and perhaps a good deal more "leg work" with more stewards in the stables checking the bona fides of the products being administered to our horses.

[mango]

Hi Dot

I'm lost here so you might be able to help me out, which rule states that you can't have a horse in work on anabolic steriods. I was under the belief that you could have a horse in work on a steriod as long as a vet has prescribed it but it must not be presented at the race's untill the anabolic steriod has cleared it's system.

[dizzy]

VVV if such a list was published then does a trainer get off or penalised for a positive swab to a substance not included on the list? Given that harness racing in six years hasn't been able to update it's rules to reflect that using a naso gastro tube, in the manner it was made for -that is sticking it up a horses nose, in the state of NSW is a restricted act of veterinary science which means that it is only legal for a vet to do it how on earth do you think they could possibly keep a list of therapeutic thresholds up to date with the evolotion of both drugs and testing methods?

[dizzy]

Hi Dot

I'm lost here so you might be able to help me out, which rule states that you can't have a horse in work on anabolic steriods. I was under the belief that you could have a horse in work on a steriod as long as a vet has prescribed it but it must not be presented at the race's untill the anabolic steriod has cleared it's system.

Mango there is no rule that says you cant have a horse in work on anabolic steroids and you are correct the drug must have cleared the system race day. The devil is in the detail in that an anabolic steroid must by law be prescribed by a vet and all administrations by harness racing rules must be recorded in a trainers medication journal including when and who administered it. If no one is going to check these then of course no one is going to be caught using illegal steroids during training.

Unlike VVV who believes boldonone is in common usage for post race recovery I think if you survey vets they will indicate that they are prescribing anabolic steroids with far less frequency then at any time in the past. I know mine is.

[mango]

Why worry so much about what people are using in training wouldn't it be better to concentrate more so on race day and post race swabs.

[Triple V]

vvv if such a list was published then does a trainer get off or penalised for a positive swab to a substance not included on the list?
[vvv] if a list of accepted equine therapeutic substances were to be compiled, there were published thresholds for same (ala tco2's etc) & this was combined with quantitative testing then as sure night follows day, so would a penalty for a substance being found that was not on the list.

for the sake of the exercise dot, i was wondering can you...or for that matter can anyone else here....come up with a list of drugs/substances that clearly have quite legitimate equine therapeutic use.
from there can you or can anyone else then make specific note of all those that they believe could, if the testing regime was fully quantitative as opposed to that which we have at present, be included on a therapeutics with thresholds list...for the purposes of harness racing ?
further to that, if possible...can you also note the reason/s why did selected those substances?

given that harness racing in six years hasn't been able to update it's rules to reflect that using a naso gastro tube, in the manner it was made for -that is sticking it up a horses nose, in the state of nsw is a restricted act of veterinary science which means that it is only legal for a vet to do it [vvv] fair point but as we all know, that's a bit of a silly rule as it pertains to race horses & especially so as it pertains to all those people out there who only have the very best of intentions & have done so as an animal welfare measure as opposed to less noble reasons.
it also means i'm technically in trouble because a little bit over a year ago i admit to having milked out a mare then tubed her foal with said milk as it was quickly going down hill, dehydrated & struggling a day or two after it was born.
for mine, invoking that rule is able to be justified only when nefaious intent has already been established, which i'm sure is the way it is always used anyway.
that rule is for mine just as silly a rule as that which governs the testing of bute, despite the fact it stops working appreciably if at all after 12 hrs & is gone for all money as a pain relief agent inside of 24hrs...here in australia you can still score yourself a positive for it as far out as 96hrs+. That, imo, is just plain absurd.


how on earth do you think they could possibly keep a list of therapeutic thresholds up to date with the evolotion of both drugs and testing methods?
[vvv] easy. You're going to have to ask me harder questions dot.
again, i would have thought that was obvious. If it isn't on the published list of accepted substances for the purposes of harness racing...then it doesn't have a threshold and if it doesn't have a threshold...then it is a penalty.
relatively speaking this list situation is in fact not all that far away incidentally.
various international racing bodies/conferences etc have covered this subject at length in recent years. Just as soon as we cease to test for the metabolites of drugs in urine & start to across the board test for the presence of the parent drugs in whole blood, what i've been banging away at all these years will only be a heart beat away. You might see that as a backward step. I see it as a great leap forward.


vvv

[Triple V]

Why worry so much about what people are using in training wouldn't it be better to concentrate more so on race day and post race swabs.

[VVV] The Member for Young has the floor! Well said.

[Triple V]

Unlike VVV who believes boldonone is in common usage for post race recovery I think if you survey vets they will indicate that they are prescribing anabolic steroids with far less frequency then at any time in the past. I know mine is.

[VVV] Dot, post my being completely wrong with my line of thinking that Boldenone & Testosterone were basically one and the same, grave concern over the prospect of my Jatz & I parting company caused me to do a fair bit of reading on the subject. You might like to read up on precursors/prohormones. I found it very interesting as I wasn't aware that such things existed. A cat amongst the pigeons maybe?

.

[mark diegutis]

Mark...
I have been banging away at this subject for longer than anyone including myself would really care to remember.
I have been pushing & pushing the case for an entire list of therapeutic thresholds to be put in place and also for quantitative testing to be instituted, neither of which we currently have.
This is because of my continuing belief that Trainers have, do and unless something is done will continue to get jammed up with positives for minute traces of accepted equine thereapeutic drugs which are quite clearly no longer present in pharmacologically active amounts. I am stunned that you cannot get your head around this.
Further to that, I am repeatedly on record as having done so over the years and across a number of Racing forums, both still active & subsequently defunct.
Ask around for confirmation. Ask the NSW Stewards both past and present. My stance on this subject goes back prior to the advent of the GHRRA, it goes back 3 name changes and beyond Tony Collins being the boss at the then NSW Harness Racing Authority.
It goes back beyond Luke McCarthy's High School years. It is by no means a recent thing in response to recent happenings, despite what you might so erronesously care to infer Mark.
Now if you've got the stones then swing them in the wind. Come right out and say so. Call me a Shill for the bad guys, call me a shonk and pony up your evidence of same. I dare you.
Otherwise, shut your pie hole. I resent the inference.
If you had instead been around for long enough or if otherwise you had done your homework thoroughly enough and bothered to ask around then you would already know this to have been the case.
Aim up on the rights and the wrongs of the subject by all means but please...don't run that Mother Duck crap at me...because mate, you are just plain wrong.

Hi Jaimie . Its hard to put up a good argument when those who control this forum are those who have the strongest opinions . Those who delete others posts when the ballance of opinion turns against them . You say you resent the inference . Well , no one knows what that means now , but if thats the case don't put yourself in a position where the bulk of your arguments would point to the assumption that urks you .
If you want to be fair dinkum and honest , no trainers use steroids for therapeutic reasons . Its all about performance . The quick buck . You don't need steroids to race with . The rest of the world has proved that . In racing and every other sport . Australian trainers keep making the therapeutic argument because its so much easier and quicker . Like I've stated before , any horse that is genuinely in need of steroids is not a racing proposition for quite some time . Quack quack

[Lethal]

Mark, some people love to confuse the debate about steroid use with other drugs, whether they are therapeutic or not. It is this line of defence that results in the blurring of of the argument against drug cheats. If a horse is in such bad condition that it needs steroids to obtain maximum fitness then surely it should not be considered a current racing proposition. But apart from all this talk 'horses don't inject themselves', which on its own places absolute responsibility on the trainer. Until out of competition drug rules and testing becomes the norm then money will win out. Cycling has done it , so can Harness Racing with the right willpower

[teecee]

[QUOTE=mark diegutis;22268]Hi Jaimie . Its hard to put up a good argument when those who control this forum are those who have the strongest opinions . Those who delete others posts when the ballance of opinion turns against them . You say you resent the inference . Well , no one knows what that means now , but if thats the case don't put yourself in a position where the bulk of your arguments would point to the assumption that urks you .

For those who dont know what it means, it means this...Posts are not deleted when the balance of opinion turns against them. Posts are deleted when the discussion of an issue becomes a personal attack on the views or opinions which differ. Having differing opinions is okay here but attacking others who have differing views in a personal manner is not for this forum.

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=mark diegutis;22268]Hi Jaimie . Its hard to put up a good argument when those who control this forum are those who have the strongest opinions . Those who delete others posts when the ballance of opinion turns against them . You say you resent the inference . Well , no one knows what that means now , but if thats the case don't put yourself in a position where the bulk of your arguments would point to the assumption that urks you .

For those who dont know what it means, it means this...Posts are not deleted when the balance of opinion turns against them. Posts are deleted when the discussion of an issue becomes a personal attack on the views or opinions which differ. Having differing opinions is okay here but attacking others who have differing views in a personal manner is not for this forum.

Thanks Tony . Thats fair enough . I apologize to Jaimie . Personally , I think he'd be a pretty good bloke . I'll punish myself with 3 months disqualification from the forum . See ya later . P.S Tony can you allow Trish an account under her own name using this IP address . Thanks

[Thevoiceofreason]

[QUOTE=teecee;22270]

Thanks Tony . Thats fair enough . I apologize to Jaimie . Personally , I think he'd be a pretty good bloke . I'll punish myself with 3 months disqualification from the forum . See ya later . P.S Tony can you allow Trish an account under her own name using this IP address . Thanks

Mark

Given part of the tone of this discussion on prohibited substance cheats being about disqualified persons continuing under another family member unchecked. Are you not asking for the same dispensation, funny I got the drift you were against that as a matter of principle.

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=teecee;22270]

Thanks Tony . Thats fair enough . I apologize to Jaimie . Personally , I think he'd be a pretty good bloke . I'll punish myself with 3 months disqualification from the forum . See ya later . P.S Tony can you allow Trish an account under her own name using this IP address . Thanks


[VVV} Mark, there's absolutely no need to do that. None at all.
What you do need to do however is to get your head around the fact that you and I are coming at this subject from obviously two very different but at the same time two very well intentioned angles. I'd no more give something to a horse I even remotely thought might harm it than I would attempt to fly to the moon in a cast-iron bathtub.
That being said, I object just as strongly if not more so to the present IMO prehistoric & verging upon draconian view of the use and race day detection of minute amounts of the metabolites of a range of genuine equine therapeutics.
It burns me no end that technology exists which would allow us to establish, institute and test for race day thresholds (ala TCO2's) for a designated list of accepted equine therapeutic substances & yet our Administrators/Regulators inexplicably continue to drag their feet or continue to place it in the too hard basket.
This creates a situation where genuine, honest horsemen and women with only the very best of care and welfare intentions for horses in their stable will continue to fall foul of positive tests called on the metabolites of therapeutic substances that whilst present are able to be detected in amounts that are so infinitesimally small that they could be considered in no reasonable way, shape or form to be pharmacologically active.
That situation of course then has very grave implications for the unfair and unreasonable removal of a Trainer's capacity to/right earn an income, something which is in and of itself nothing short of disgraceful. That's the windmill I'm tilting at here.

[matrightyeh]

there are always different ways to cheat with drugs it will always be here imo https://imageshackau.com/sports/131/b/happy.gifhttps://imageshackau.com/sports/133/b/happy.gifhttps://imageshackau.com/sports/138/b/happy.gif
https://imageshackau.com/sports/123/b/happy.gifhttps://imageshackau.com/sports/52/b/happy.gifhttps://imageshackau.com/sports/134/b/happy.gif

[teecee]

[QUOTE=teecee;22270]

Thanks Tony . Thats fair enough . I apologize to Jaimie . Personally , I think he'd be a pretty good bloke . I'll punish myself with 3 months disqualification from the forum . See ya later . P.S Tony can you allow Trish an account under her own name using this IP address . Thanks

Whilst your perceived need to punish yourself is an issue for you, I have to say I don't agree. I am not seeking to exclude people from any side of the debate. I dont ban people from having considered opinions on debated issues. I am not trying to stifle opinion relevant to the debated issue. Rather my post is not aimed at you personally nor for that matter at only those whose posts have been deleted. It is an advisory to all posters to this thread. Some have taken the hint from previous postings whilst others have not. This thread has at last count some 170 posts. Whilst the debate is often forceful and polarising much of it is not well researched or substantiated IMO. It is fine to have an opinion and express it here as robustly as you must but when it is not researched nor substantiated it is just that...opinion.
As a trainer currently in the middle of a rather fluid situation here in NZ with what is or is not , contains or does not, prohibited substances, issues that suggest some of the practical issues without the dramatics like...
boxing my horse upto 60 hours prior to racing.
Replacing $10,000 worth of treated post and rail
Researching any additives to determine what's really in them.
Filtering my chaff of all weed and foreign matter.
Consider building a quarantine station for my sick, out of training horses so my very trusted vet can prescribe for their best interests.
A few additional things I can do to ensure my horses race drug free.!!!!
But then I might forget to wash down the tie up stall chains and my horse returns a positive to DMSO contaminated by a previous stallholder!!!
In the eyes and minds of some here I would be a cheat or in the words of others something lower than human.

There are many dubious posts on this thread which forcefully push a point of view by rubbishing the alternative view without substantiation. These remain only to provide continuity to the legitimate discussion. For me the 3 posts which I have deleted from this thread by me take this stance an unnecessary step further and offer a negative or nil value to the discussion. That strategy is one of a personal attack on a poster claiming their view is ."because you are, support, part of"....
Again my request to stick to the issue being debated. Leave your opinion of those offering you a debate out of the equation.



To my knowledge there has never been an issue with Trish using your IP address or computer for her own account.
The forum only has issues with members using multiple fake identities. IP addresses and computers is but one way to track these people.

[2minuteman]

Boldonone,Testosterone,so yesterday,I want some of whatever Ye Shewin's (supposedly)on.Talk about rocket fuel.

[Lethal]

Tony, I'm not sure that the majority of posts here were about accidental contamination of horses, but rather more about the deliberate dosing of performance enhancing drugs ie: steroid overages in racing horses etc.
However some of your thoughts warrant consideration in a modern training establishment,even though some
would not be wanted by anyone, however some should be discussed.
Why shouldn't a trainer be aware of everything in an ADDITIVE that he may give his horse'?
(After all one trainer in the spotlight at the moment has stated that he 'has never heard of Boldenone')He might just call it 'Equipoise'.
Why not have a separate area (within the stable complex) for horses under restricted Vet treatment ?
Why not ensure clothing and body free of restricted substances before leaving a treatment area.?
Surely these and many other protocols should be the way of the future if we want to ensure our racing integrity.

[Toohard]

Re Ye Shiwen
She got home in 28.9. Faster than the blokes in same race did! Pretty amazing performance. Trained in Qld by an Aussie. He said they (the chinese girls) just want to work harder. I might be wrong but think same bloke who gave up that Schipper girls (that he also coached) secrets to chinese girl he coached last olympics. But then if he on $250k per gold medal from chinese like reported....why not!!!

[broncobrad]

Just going back to the credibility of Richard Freedman, sitting back at the Sky studios. Following the running of the 2nd at Wyong today when the two Berry boys went across the line locked together, this goose says (and its as close to a quote as I can recall) "You would think Tommy would have leant across to his brother and said to his brother, 'hey ease up Nathan [or words to that effect], my boys have had a stack on this' ". This bloke owns horses, has been part of one of the most successful stables in Australia, has since lost his spot on 2KYs sports breakfast, his $400,000 job with the (old) AJC and now moonlights at Sky. The dribble that pours out of this blokes mouth makes me look like a Rhodes scholar. His attitude to harness and dog meetings is abysmal to boot, much preferring to yap about the next gallop ten minutes away while OUR blokes are scoring up.

Footnote - Tommy did win the race and I had a couple of bob on it.

[Triple V]

...as a box of Hammers. He's un-freaking-believable.

[dizzy]

Why worry so much about what people are using in training wouldn't it be better to concentrate more so on race day and post race swabs.

Mango if you have read all the posts on this thread you will have read about "stacking" "micro dosing" and "masking" agents, these are all part of protocols to use performance enhancing drugs and when combined with private testing negate post race testing. Simply put our rules where written for an era where oil based anabolic steroids did test for considerable amounts of time so that whilst in theory horses could train on them the most likely scenario was that they actually did not, with those trainers/vets that used them giving them to the horse as it left the stable to go for a spell. Water based steroids didn't test for anywhere near as long and most trainers didn't use them because they didn't believe they were sufficiently effective.

Unfortunately as Bill pointed out with a remark a long the lines of "good luck" with getting the rules changed harness racings rules have not kept pace (no pun intended!) with either science or public opinion. Bills example was with regard to the use of anti ulcer meds which only in the last year or so were removed from the prohibitted substance list (but still cant be administered raceday when they are probably needed most ) years after the TB's allowed their use. Perhaps Bill can enlighten us as to exactly how long? I can tell you Mango that the change in harness racings rules came more then a decade after the FEI (Federation Equestrian Internationale) allowed horses in international equestrian sports to compete on anti ulcer medication after years of research showed they had no performance enhancing effect.

Likewise the NSW parliament (the elected representatives of the NSW people) legislated some 6 years ago that only Vets should be permitted to use a naso gastro tube on a horse yet harness racing rules still allow trainers to "tube" a horse except within 48 hours of a race.

Put simply Mango our rules on out of competition testing for anabolic steroids are out of date and harness racing needs to wake from its slumber on the matter and move to bring us in line with both science and public opinion. Anabolic steroids are banned for human athletes to train and compete on not only because of the performance enhancing properties in competion but because of the side effects and long term effects on health, so why should our equine athletes not be afforded the same level of protection. Humans do not accept human athletes training on anabolic steroids, and have developed both post and out of competition testing in an attempt to prevent it, so why should we accept our horses training on anabolic steroids instead of changing the rules and making anabolic steroids a banned substance in an out of competition test.

[mango]

Hi Dot

The simple fact of the matter is that anobolic steriods are not illegal so why worry about out of competition testing untill they are. If they ever come under the banned list i would say and agree to test for it out of competition but untill that time i'd prefer to see more race day testing to make it fair on everyone. At the end of the day your not racing anyone or winning money in training so concentrate on the day's that you are.

[dizzy]

Mango can you not see that it is what you do in training that determines if you win in competition?

[dizzy]

vvv

Your list needs to be compiled by an expert VVV, and even with an expert I'm not sure it can be done to cover all possibilities. Certainly it cant be done by me and if I did write one you wouldn't agree with it because I don't see the use of anabolic steroids in an athletic horse as "therapeutic".

What silly rule are you talking about, what the parliament decrees is law not rules VVV. It will probably come as a shock to you VVV but racehorses can be trained without "drenching". In most instances it is an antiquated practise that has been superseeded by new science and products. About the only thing that does really require a trainer to drench is less "noble"

Given VVV that you've said your horses welfare comes first why didn't you call a vet to your foal? How would you have gone if you'd given it aspiration pneumonia? There are some exceptional circumstances clauses in the legislation but if your foal was in North West Sydney VVV then I doubt you qualify. There are 2 specialist equine clinics out there that both offer 24 hr on call ambulatory care, why didn't you use one?

VVV as you don't like the term masking agent lets use your term "interference" agent for bute. Bute doesn't cure injury or illness, it "interferes' with the inflamatory cascade thus reducing pain and swelling but those torn tendon fibres are still just as torn even though you cant see exterior signs of it. So you keep working the horse and what was minor injury is suddenly a major one because you wanted to go back to the races next week rather then give the horse time to recover. If your horse needs bute to recover from a race doesn't he deserve the time it takes for it to clear his system before you ask him for another effort? Or because its ineffective after around 12 hours do you think you should be able to mask, sorry interfere with, his perception of pain until 12 hours before racetime? Pain and swelling is there for a reason VVV, it tells us we need time to repair and recover.

[mango]

Hi Dot

Sorry Dot i don't see a problem as long as it's legal under the rule's of Harness Racing.

[dizzy]

Hi Dot

Sorry Dot i don't see a problem as long as it's legal under the rule's of Harness Racing.

I guess Mango then you wouldn't have seen a problem with slavery, apartheid or women not having the vote either when those things were legal!

[mango]

Hi Dot

I find it appalling that you would use those situation's to those of using a legal substance such as steriods, at the end of the day Dot rule's are rule's and if one work's inside the rule's that's great. You need to have a good look at yourself Dot and when doing so ask yourself if it's legal can i do it and by the way the answer is yes.

[dizzy]

Mango those things are but a few examples in human history of things that we now find appalling that were legal, and during the time they were legal many people like yourself found them perfectly acceptable because they were legal. It was only when people began to question not whether they were legal but if they were right that in time changes were made to the law to make them illegal.

I thank you for your advice Mango but no matter how many times I look at myself I will not see fit to use anabolic steroids on my horses as a matter of course because it is legal.

[Lethal]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99567
At least its a start!

[Lethal]

http://m.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-industry-cleanout-not-before-time-says-frustrated-owner-20111127-1o1ji.html
Here's one, it might jog memories.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Mango those things are but a few examples in human history of things that we now find appalling that were legal, and during the time they were legal many people like yourself found them perfectly acceptable because they were legal. It was only when people began to question not whether they were legal but if they were right that in time changes were made to the law to make them illegal.

I thank you for your advice Mango but no matter how many times I look at myself I will not see fit to use anabolic steroids on my horses as a matter of course because it is legal.

Dot

Would you however use them on a gelding that had experienced a tuff time either a long preparation or breaking in and the vet said this needs a short break and a steroid might quicken his recovery.

[dizzy]

Bill the answer is still no. Whilst I don't break my own I do train them and I would have pulled the pin on that stressfull a breaking in or a long preparation well before any consideration of the use of a steroid to improve recovery would arise. I've always found the best way to manage a "tuff time" is to stop before things get that bad

[Lethal]

Dot, It has now got to the stage where the those with the loudest voice (posts) are now deleting anything that They find is not in sync. with their point of view. How sad

[Lethal]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99567
At least it's a start.

[Lethal]

http://www.harnhttp://m.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-industry-cleanout-not-before-time-says-frustrated-owner-20111127-1o1ji.htmlesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99549
Makes good reading

[dizzy]

Absolutely Lee. I actually spend a lot of time reading the US message boards and pretty much to a man/women they all agree that it is the chemists that have ruined harness racing in the US, and if harness racing is to be saved then the chemist must be eliminated from the sport.

[dizzy]

And you are right Lee definately some deletions from this thread now. I do remember the article from the age, which wasn't the only place it was printed, the photo that went with it was Greg Bennett on Excell Stride

[Lethal]

Dot, if we (anyone) were to stopped by the Highway Patrol for using a Radar Detector and, as a reason offered, 'but I was only using IT to avoid being fined for speeding' what do you think their response might be? Ring a bell?

[Triple V]

your list needs to be compiled by an expert vvv, and even with an expert i'm not sure it can be done to cover all possibilities. Certainly it cant be done by me and if i did write one you wouldn't agree with it because i don't see the use of anabolic steroids in an athletic horse as "therapeutic".
[vvv] that's a huge cop out dot and it underlines the fact that you are railing against that about which you obviously have very little to no idea about.

what silly rule are you talking about, what the parliament decrees is law not rules vvv. It will probably come as a shock to you vvv but racehorses can be trained without "drenching". In most instances it is an antiquated practise that has been superseeded by new science and products. About the only thing that does really require a trainer to drench is less "noble"
[vvv] ...or a plain old hot & humid day and a badly dehydrated horse... But please dot, let us not allow such trivial matters to stand in the way of your tilt at the windmill.

given vvv that you've said your horses welfare comes first why didn't you call a vet to your foal? How would you have gone if you'd given it aspiration pneumonia? There are some exceptional circumstances clauses in the legislation but if your foal was in north west sydney vvv then i doubt you qualify. There are 2 specialist equine clinics out there that both offer 24 hr on call ambulatory care, why didn't you use one?
[vvv] unbelievable. The more you ramp up your efforts to belt me over the head the more absurd your arguments become.
better to just stand by and watch the foal die then you reckon?
clearly you have no idea at all how quickly a foal can take a turn for the worse and go down hill. I'd prefer to take action but hey, call me a criminal. Please dot, by all means jump on the blower tomorrow morning & report me to the nsw stewards for my heinous crime of tubing a foal with a jug of its own mother's own milk in an attempt to save it's life, something which i am certain it ultimately helped to do. Print this post out and send it in to reid sanders. I think that he reads this forum from time to time anyway but just to be sure, knock yourself out. while you're at it dot, despite me not being a vet i also of my own free will confess to having actively assisted in jugging another foal with a saline and a glucose drip so as to try and prevent it from dehydrating and dying. No doubt in your eyes another oh so very heinous act.
there would not be a single person that foals down their own mares anywhere in this entire country who has not done this or similar at some point along the way. It is par for the course, it goes with the territory.
clearly you have no idea what you are on about...save of course the no doubt many dozens of mares that you foal down at bankstown every year.


vvv

[Triple V]

Dot, It has now got to the stage where the those with the loudest voice (posts) are now deleting anything that They find is not in sync. with their point of view. How sad

[VVV] It has gotten to the stage where you and Dot are potentially slandering people Lee.
Despite your feeble attempts to paint it otherwise you'll note I've not deleted a single post where either yourself or Dot are taking shots at myself, because to be upfront...I actually enjoy the banter. Insofar as you guys lining up on Emilio etc. and for that matter upon anyone else who is not on here to defend themselves, so Trooper, no can do. You can like that or lump it.

[Lethal]

Dot, this point might not register with some, BUT in the US the Tea Party got their first nomination for the Senate. How? Banging away for what they believed in.(Against other points of view ) Apologists for drug cheats will not win if the 'little people' in any sporting activity can have faith in the administrators standing up for 'a level Playing Field' the sporting body's, like Cycling have to show leadership.

[Lethal]

VVV
You deleted the posts that were nothing more than links from Harness Link and mainstream media, so it could only be because they don't adhere to your point of view, however they are already out there for all to see (we don't live in North Korea). Seeing how you mentioned one persons' name (which wasn't in the post) what's your connection?

[dizzy]

VVV you want the list why don't you write it, I can recommend a number of books from Professor Tobin and others iif you like. How about managing your horse so that it doesn't become dehydrated in the first place VVV, you know proactive not reactive.

Since when has calling a vet to a sick foal become an absurd arguement? I regularly travel from Bankstown to the clinic at Agnes Banks in 55 minutes, I'm sure from both Agnes Banks and Clarendon to where you keep your mares could be accomplished in significantly less. Calling a vet would give a sickly foal the best opportunity to live would it not VVV?

I don't foal down any mares myself VVV at Bankstown or elsewhere, mine are supervised by someone else who I'm sure wouldn't hesitate to call a vet if the foal showed any signs of needing one.

[dizzy]

VVV how is it slander that I remember an article that was published in mainstream media and as Lee has shown can easily be retrieved from the net and a photograph that was published with it of the horse Excell Stride and Greg Bennet? That simply is published history not slander

[Lethal]

Dot,
This was deleted as well
'Can Drug testing alone catch drug cheats'
Hits on the site..........11121 and growing
Posts""""""""".................192 """"""""""""""

So,we can deduce from this that the average 'joe blow' is not interested in ''drugs in sport' but more occupied about team driving.
When I stop laughing I might read the next post.

[Triple V]

That's the decision Troops. If Jules & Co. don't agree then they can re-instate those posts. It's up to them. Until then however, as I said, like it or lump it. Please feel free to bag me all you like however, I have something that those about whom you are clearly inferring things currently do not have here on this Forum, the right of and ability to reply.

[Lethal]

VVV
No one is inferring anything, it is out there in the public domain, please share with us all what you know that we don't.

[Lethal]

Jamie,
It's not you personally that the collective 'we' object to , rather than opinions that vary so far from modern thinking about, not just drug use,but about
the whole animal treatment regime. The animal liberationists have started to get their way way with jumping races. They won't stop, next racing in general and then Eventing/Showjumping/ Pony club/ Dressage and they will go on untill they win. We have to be proactive not reactive or else we will lose ALL horse sports.

[Triple V]

Jamie,
It's not you personally that the collective 'we' object to , rather than opinions that vary so far from modern thinking about, not just drug use,but about
the whole animal treatment regime. The animal liberationists have started to get their way way with jumping races. They won't stop, next racing in general and then Eventing/Showjumping/ Pony club/ Dressage and they will go on untill they win. We have to be proactive not reactive or else we will lose ALL horse sports.

[VVV] I do realise that Lee. The day that those 'modern thinkers' bring enough political pressure to bear to stop Vets & Trainers administering accepted, registered equine therapeutic substances however will be the day that I stand in the middle of Pitt St . Mall at lunchtime, drop my pants and sing 'Hey Big Spender' by Shirley Bassey.
Personally, I think Jumps races are an absolute disgrace so I happen to agree with them there. Further, if I had my way I would ban the use of whips altogether. I know that is not a particularly popular stance and that it has virtually zero chance of ever getting the upper hand. My view is that once again, just like TCO2's, whip use is a largely Punter driven vehicle...the old "I want to see that the Driver/Hoop is getting everything out of the horse" routine and be damned the fact that a beat down with a whip is in fact almost never going to be the best way to gain the best effort of a horse. As well all know, some will go the other way and they'll lay down under the stick but try to explain that to some dumb SOB in a TAB who wouldn't know which end of a horse eats and which end craps. The PUNT rules the roost once again.

[dizzy]

I don't have a problem with jumps racing done properly but in this country it's not or rarely done properly. Those other sports you mention Lee have evolved rapidly in recent years to protect themselves from accusations of horse abuse from animal welfare quarters. Dressage banned a controversial training method known as "Rolkur" even though the dutch used it with particular success to win many a gold medal. In dressage ANY trace of blood on a horse from a spur rub or in the mouth results in elemination from the competition. And don't think the judges won't do it, a Dutch rider who was favoured for the individual silver medal, and the dutch team the gold, was eliminated at the last world championship during her test because her horse displayed a trace of blood in its mouth. It was determined after the test by the vets that he had bitten his own tongue.

Whip rules in showjumping have changed, previously a horse was able to refuse 3 times in a competition before it was eliminated, and the rider could punish it on each occasion freely with the whip. Now a horse may only refuse twice before elimination, and a rider may only strike the horse 3 times with the whip on the first occasion and not at all on the second. Actually most riders will only strike a horse now twice if it refuses.

They are still in the rule book but virtually no one programs any of the old events in showjumping where the size of the fences kept increasing until the horses failed to be able to jump them. No one wanted to see horses tested to the max any more, and showjumping evolved into a competition where it was more about a horses education then his absolute ability to jump a big fence. I maybe on my own here but I would like to see harness racing evolve likewise to the point where people can be satisfied to see a horse win without being concerned about how fast it ran. That it is the calibre of the opposition that you defeated, not how fast you ran that determines the merit of the performance.Who here would say that Black Caviar is not a champion yet she has not once run a track record in her career. And I have no doubt that if a race track manager produced a surface on which she could have smashed the track record Peter Moody would have refused to start her.

Eventing removed the roads and tracks and steeplechase from the cross country in all but a few four star events throughout the world to protect the horse from the fatigue related falls that were occurring. Only the very best competitors in the world are accepted into a four star event these days with extremely strick qualifying conditions. And all events now are one fall at a fence or on the flat in the cross country and you are eliminated.

Pretending that people don't care about horse welfare or the use of performance enhancing drugs in harness racing is folly

[Lethal]

Dot,
On the ball again.Our grandaughter competes at Interclub level on (most people don't believe it) a Standardbred, who was twice a regional 'Horse of the Year' and can't he jump, which upsets most of her 'Hacky' world participants.
If we don't clean up our act re; drug use/whip use ie: ZERO tolerance,all horse sports will be non existant in the world of the future, and we (the people) will not be better off for it.

[Lethal]

]http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/harness-industry-cleanout-not-before-time-says-frustrated-owner-20111127-1o1ji.htm
I'll put it here again, anyone can read it, it's not top secret materiel. 'IF YOU CAN'T BEAT E'M, JOIN E'M'.
That's probably not in Wiktionaray.

[Lethal]

No one is interested in DRUG CHEATS ...........Hits.11377 That's 266 in 2 hours ????????????????

[Triple V]

vvv you want the list why don't you write it, i can recommend a number of books from professor tobin and others iif you like. How about managing your horse so that it doesn't become dehydrated in the first place vvv, you know proactive not reactive.
[vvv] dot, you've got a better duck and weave than the great jimmy caruthers.
your footwork is not of the same calibre however.
the fact that you can't even come up with a single nomination for such a list but are nonetheless eager to rail against same, for me speaks volumes.
it is pretty obvious which of the current therapeutic drugs would be the main contenders to make it & even if you don't want any such list to become a reality you could at the very least name a few of them and go on to make a case againt them...but no, not even that. :confused:

since when has calling a vet to a sick foal become an absurd arguement?
[vvv] a blantant & noted thoroughly scurrilous misrepresentation of what i have said. It is either that or you need to attend reading & comprehension 101.

i regularly travel from bankstown to the clinic at agnes banks in 55 minutes, i'm sure from both agnes banks and clarendon to where you keep your mares could be accomplished in significantly less. Calling a vet would give a sickly foal the best opportunity to live would it not vvv?
[vvv] see above.

i don't foal down any mares myself vvv at bankstown or elsewhere, mine are supervised by someone else.
[vvv] the old absentee routine eh? I think jack nicholson said it best in 'a few good men'. Either pick up a rifle and stand at post... Or just say thankyou and be on your way.

who i'm sure wouldn't hesitate to call a vet if the foal showed any signs of needing one.
[vvv] there go my plans to employ herbal teas, healing crystals and tibetan chanting during the coming season's foalings. Thanks for setting me straight on that score dot. Most appreciated.



vvv

[racefair]

Hi Lee, some of the things that guys like Jamie VVV and Bill Williams VOR have highlighted recently are starting to put some things in perspective. It would seem that these guys have inside knowledge and maybe associations with the powers that be. They claim that the PUNTER is the customer and therefore the most important stakeholder in Harness Racing. Therefore, the PUNTER's perception that we have consistency and fairplay is more important than any reality of same. VOR agrees with VVV that team driving is more damaging to the sport over the use of performance enhancing drugs because it's something that the PUNTER can sometimes see. He's probably right, I don't know. I get it and maybe the PARTICPANTS like you and I need to get with the program, shut up and be happy with the administration of the rules.
Mango commented that rules are rules. No issue there however the rules aren't consistently administered and that's the problem that PARTICPANTS have. Think back, how some trainers all of a sudden had such miraculous results in such a short space of time and then fall of the map again? Are they being tipped off for the "good of the game" and so that the "PUNTER" has confidence in the so called product? Were some of these trainers in the past "TOO BIG TO FAIL?" So Mango, maybe the rules aren't the rules for ALL. . It seems that we have rules to be enforced when it's in line with the over arching strategy of creating the perception of a level playing field and consistent racing product. Can you think of a recent example of trainers or drivers that are TOO BIG TO FAIL?

VOR also commented that EPO is being looked for and there are cheats being punished and so he feels that it should give the PUNTER confidence that it's being looked for. Using his words, "no indication there is widespread misuse in either code". Jamie has enlightened us with some highly imaginative reasons for massive turn around in performances.
Jamie VVV in the past has made claim that a Sydney based trainer enjoying unbelievable success would never return a positive success and would have bet just about anything on it. How can anyone ever do that with so much confidence without having knowledge or a relationship that the general public aren't privy too? It turns out that Jamie was right and that trainer hasn't returned a +ve.

Finally, I'll put this out there that VVV and VOR have never trained a winner or been themselves involved in any elite athletic success. And so although they bring a great insight into the mentality and strategy of the Ivory tower, I don't think that they're experts on everything that they comment on. The performance improvement that we've witnessed is evidence of the use of performance enhancing drugs and we don't need a positive drug test to further validate it. However, that's a side issue as the PUNTER wouldn't know the difference.

[Lethal]

He's buying off our website again

[Triple V]

I briefly deleted that but in hindsight I'll leave that there Lee. It just underlines that you struggle to add anything useful to the discussion.

[Triple V]

Jett, putting those things being discussed here into some perspective and personally agreeing with the state of play are two totally different things. It is 100% inescapable certainty that first and foremost in the minds of all Racing Admistrators, of all Racing Regulatory & of all the respective State Governments that they are responsible to is the safeguarding of the revenue streams that flow from Wagering Taxation.
They don't come out and say as much, they spare us that particular affront, but by their words and actions... ye shall know them.
People think I am joking when I have in the past suggested that the outcome of some Protests rests more on the Tote price of those involved than they do on the actions that are being objected to.
As a participant I would of course much rather that their focus was a lot different but I have seen enough of the way things operate from an Industry internal & from a wider Government perspective to recognise that is a tilt at a windmill worthy of 1000 synchronised Don Quixotes. Ultimately, the $$$ will speak loudest of all.
If official actions taken in order to preserve that revenue stream happen to dovetail with actions that Participants feel levels the playing field for them then all the better. If they don't then basically, with measure of massaging...it is tough luck for us. It doesn't make it right, it isn't right, clearly. It is however, reality.

[dizzy]

On the subject of reality VVV I will now be leaving you to enjoy the obviously alternative reality that you exist in. Its not that I don't want to comment further and please don't think that you have seen me off its merely that I probably wont have access to post for a couple of weeks. I'm happy to leave others in judgement of what you and I have written and make their own determinations as to who needs to attend reading and comprehension classes along with training in empathy for that great animal the horse.

A few good men is one of the few movies I made time to watch. Wasn't it great to see Tom Cruise fight what should have been a losing battle for a couple of the little guys and bring down Jack Nicolsons untouchable character. They took Jack Nicolson out in hand cuffs in the end did they not?

[Triple V]

That's a cop out Dot. Pick up a rifle and stand at Post. It's not too difficult a concept to come to grips with. Don't take the easy road and leave the foaling down to someone else. See how good you are when one gets into trouble or out of the blue a foal starts to go down hill. You can't press the pause button and go and make a cup of tea and think about it for a bit, you can't take a 50/50 or ask Eddie if you can phone a friend. It doesn't work that way but then again, perhaps I'm being unreasonable. How would you know? Someone else does all that for you.

[dizzy]

That's a cop out Dot. Pick up a rifle and stand at Post. It's not too difficult a concept to come to grips with. Don't take the easy road and leave the foaling down to someone else. See how good you are when one gets into trouble or out of the blue a foal starts to go down hill. You can't press the pause button and go and make a cup of tea and think about it for a bit, you can't take a 50/50 or ask Eddie if you can phone a friend. It doesn't work that way but then again, perhaps I'm being unreasonable. How would you know? Someone else does all that for you.

Now VVV that is funny, seriously funny you've given me a great laugh! 30 years as an Air Traffic Controller and now someone tells me that I can't handle pressure, multi task or make descisions upon which lives depend. At least you've left me with my spatial awareness, you know the ability to know that I cant be in two places at once.

PS I am the phone a friend for a couple of my friends that foal down their own mares.

[Triple V]

That's called a God complex, Dot.

[barney]

Austin Misfud and Phillip Walters have both been given lengthty suspensions for out of competition drug tests Mifsud 4 years and Walters 3 years 6 months.
Source harness .org.au stewards wrap.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Austin Misfud and Phillip Walters have both been given lengthty suspensions for out of competition drug tests Mifsud 4 years and Walters 3 years 6 months.
Source harness .org.au stewards wrap.

And that is what out of competition testing should be all about ... not so sure the penalties are high enough but it is more than a slap on the wrist.

[Triple V]

Could not agree more VOR. That is the reason why it is in place. It is however not in place...despite the disturbing beliefs expressed by the inhabitants of the lunatic fringe...to jam up honest Trainers for using a range of legal, registered, accepted equine treatments that may have been administered at any point during the training phase. Thankfully both Administration & Regulatory can clearly see the difference.

[Triple V]

Dot, I object to the inferences within that, they are nothing short of deplorable, even by your well established low standards. Either modify or delete it...because if you do not, rest assured, I'll take it further.

[dizzy]

edited as a previous post has now been deleted

[dizzy]

[QUOTE=Danno;21885]

[VVV] G'day Dan,
Mate, it's not ignorance, rather it's just a common misnomer.
I guess you could call them any number of things other than any name that suggests or states that they actually 'mask' the presence of another substance..because they do not. Interference agents perhaps?
That being said, rather than such substances being the main reason to point to as to why anyone who chose to walk down that road might continue to skate by on testing, there is another far more likely Boogey Man lurking in the bushes.
It is a fact that completely unrelated types of drugs which nevertheless have completely like pharmacological effects can be administered to horses in micro doses. This is termed 'stacking'...a process whereby such drugs are effectively 'stacked' one atop of the other in order to achieve the desired result that otherwise a full dose of any single one of them would have achieved...only by way of having been 'stacked'... individually none of them will be present in a large enough amounts to cause a positive test to occur.
To put it in very simple terms...you can for example, as a Human, decide to take small doses of Panadol, Aspirin and Nurofen and do it all at the same time in order to achieve an overall pain killing/anti-inflamatory effect...while chemically speaking each of those drugs is completely unrelated to the other two. US & CAN Vets have been doing this with both equine related & I guess various other drugs for quite some time.
To some degree I think our testing regime is different here and I suspect it might well pick up at least some attempts at this practice...however I'm sure you get the picture.
Nevertheless, and without going so far as to put a blue print on here of how to be a dodgy bastard insofar as adopting the practice here, a Vet of similar dodgy views and with some reasonable insight into how to apply it could get any horse tuned up, no problems at all.
Like all such things, I suspect it all depends on what you are willing to pay in order to do so and how bent the Vet is. Fortunately here in Australia, at least to my knowledge, bent Vets are few & far between. That is far from being the case in the US however.
PS. This is what the authorities in NJ & NY are suggesting Lou Pena's Vet/s has/have been doing.



This is a post written by VVV it appeared on page three as post 26

Apologies Danno for it appearing at first glance that you wrote it.

VVV you demonstrate clear knowledge here on the practice of "stacking" drugs in such a manner as to avoid detection in a drug test? whilst the specific example you list is with regard to over the counter medication in humans you go on to state that vets in the US and CAN have been doing this with equine related and other drugs for years. Research on the internet gives copious information on the stacking of anabolic steroids for human athletes along with the use of EPO

Are these the equine related and other drugs that the vets you refer to in the US and CAN are using? If this practice is prevelant in the US why do you not think we should take measures to stop it occurring here? Why are you opposed to placing anabolic steroids on the list of banned substances in out of competition testing here?

[dizzy]

Could not agree more VOR. That is the reason why it is in place. It is however not in place...despite the disturbing beliefs expressed by the inhabitants of the lunatic fringe...to jam up honest Trainers for using a range of legal, registered, accepted equine treatments that may have been administered at any point during the training phase. Thankfully both Administration & Regulatory can clearly see the difference.

VVV care to provide the names of those legal registered accepted equine treatments?

[teecee]

Forum Rules (Must Read)

With ongoing drug scandals in Australia it's important that everybody understands what can and can't be said on a public forum from a legal perspective.

A public forum IS NOT the same as chatting to people at the track. Legally it's akin to writing something in a newspaper, meaning if you are going to attack or accuse somebody, you need to be prepared to back your statements up with proof within that same post. If you do not you can be taken to court, or we (Harnesslink) can be; and we can be shut down.

You may discuss any publicly available information from reputable sources. These include but aren't limited to: Press releases put out by HRNSW (or other state organisations), news posted by HR Australia, or Harnesslink etc. If you are posting something that could be considered controversial you need to include the link to the source in your post.

If somebody has been caught cheating, you may call them a cheat. Personal attacks (like calling them an asshole) will not be tolerated.

Hinting that somebody is or might be cheating is the same as saying it directly. We can all read between the lines and that type of carry on is not allowed.

You can freely debate with other members, but again no personal attacks. Attack the argument not the person. If threads turn nasty they will be closed or deleted and members may be banned.

Depending on the severity of what is said, members who break these rules will receive warnings, or 7 day, 30 day, or permanent bans.

We want to ensure good lively discussion and trust that these small limitations are easy for most people on here to follow.

For those who haven't been able to find them The rules of this forum are above.
The two highlighted rules have become very pertinent to 2 threads....
This one and the one about US drug use.
Please consider this post a warning. Contrary to the views of some please do not consider that because I haven't deleted your posts that it is okay.
I have not been able to keep up with the goings on on these two threads I think that if I was to moderate these threads my best option would be to delete them completely.
To those who keep within sight of the rules when contributing....Thank you.
To those who have difficulty...Please try harder

[dizzy]

Tee Cee I gather these rules apply to all or is VVV excluded? Given that in recent times I have been the brunt of many a derogatory comment from VVV regarding my intelligence levels, if I have suffered a brain injury, or am in need of medication and the like it would appear that VVV is not held to the standard you refer to in the forum rules. But as in my opinion every insult I receive from VVV is simply validation that his arguement has been lost I actually don't mind. However I do believe the personal attacks that VVV has launched on me has discourage many a poster from making a contribution here.

[Thevoiceofreason]

VVV care to provide the names of those legal registered accepted equine treatments?

Dot

Again this is just a stupid post designed to do nothing more than stir.

You and I and everybody else with that IQ of 1 knows if VVV starting typing the brand names of all the legal registered therapeutic treatments permitted in both codes of Australia Horse racing he would be typing from now until the next interdominion heats.

I have tried to not get personal or be insulting but with posts like this one it is a hard road to toe.

If you want to make a point make it but please leave shit like this out, your request is a near impossible task I doubt even your man Tobin could produce this list.

[teecee]

He said..She said claims are unhelpful. The rules apply to all.
Just remember it takes two to tango and parts of this thread are well off the acceptable standard of civil acceptance of others' legitimate views.
That said if you want to put up a controversial viewpoint be prepared to back it with published evidence. Dot I struggle to understand why you go back to post 26 of the thread and use it today to generate what can only be described at best unhelpful but more accurately malicious suggestion, then come on here and suggest a double standard in my applying the rules.

Let's not go there. As I have said previously I am happy to discuss but not justify my interpretation of the rules or how they are applied.

[dizzy]

Dot

Again this is just a stupid post designed to do nothing more than stir.

You and I and everybody else with that IQ of 1 knows if VVV starting typing the brand names of all the legal registered therapeutic treatments permitted in both codes of Australia Horse racing he would be typing from now until the next interdominion heats.

I have tried to not get personal or be insulting but with posts like this one it is a hard road to toe.

If you want to make a point make it but please leave shit like this out, your request is a near impossible task I doubt even your man Tobin could produce this list.

Bill Dr Tobin is actually "your" Man

[dizzy]

He said..She said claims are unhelpful. The rules apply to all.
Just remember it takes two to tango and parts of this thread are well off the acceptable standard of civil acceptance of others' legitimate views.
That said if you want to put up a controversial viewpoint be prepared to back it with published evidence. Dot I struggle to understand why you go back to post 26 of the thread and use it today to generate what can only be described at best unhelpful but more accurately malicious suggestion, then come on here and suggest a double standard in my applying the rules.

Let's not go there. As I have said previously I am happy to discuss but not justify my interpretation of the rules or how they are applied.

Tee Cee VVV has constantly denigrated those here who feel that anabolic steroids should be included in out of competition testing, refering just recently to us as "the lunatic fringe". My point was VVV is well aware, as indicated in post 26, as to how anabolic steroids can be used in a manner that circumvents current drug testing protocols and my question to him is, armed with that knowledge, why is he so adamant that the rules not be changed to stop those drug cheats who attempt to circumvent the rules in the manner in which he described.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Bill Dr Tobin is actually "your" Man

Dot

To debate with me you will need facts or a good memory unfortunately you seem to come up short on both.

I have included a snippet of one of your posts on another thread re raceday medications where you chose to lead us to Dr Tobin's website in support of your view that makes him your man I feel.

"Bill I am the one with the licence remember, of course the ability of laboratories to test to the picogram is of concern. When VVV first proposed his list here that I knew of I didn't dismiss it, but it is nowhere as simple a proposition as he believes. Go to Thomas Tobins web site and you will read what is involved. Bute may have only swabbed for three days in the seventies and everyone may have had their horses on anabolic steroids but what made those parameters right? Clearly we changed as far as anabolic steroids went, and yes bute tests for much longer now, well beyond its therapeutic effect."

So Dot this is my last post against your views on this subject.

I could of course go down the road of agreeing with you but that would just make us both wrong.

[broncobrad]

Tee Cee I gather these rules apply to all or is VVV excluded? Given that in recent times I have been the brunt of many a derogatory comment from VVV regarding my intelligence levels, if I have suffered a brain injury, or am in need of medication and the like it would appear that VVV is not held to the standard you refer to in the forum rules. But as in my opinion every insult I receive from VVV is simply validation that his arguement has been lost I actually don't mind. However I do believe the personal attacks that VVV has launched on me has discourage many a poster from making a contribution here.

Dizzy, I can't even recall if I have posted on this thread or not, but it was pretty apparent right from the start that there are two trains of thought and it has played out that way. In fact Jamie and Bill are consistent with their arguement and it is painfully obvious that their viewpoint is not going to change no matter how many facts, figures, quotes or evidence to the contrary that you bring to the topic. Admire your tenacity but deadset you are not going to win this on-going battle with them. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on the topic, it is simply two polar opposite opinions that are unable to accept or concede a point. Stalemate. And a pretty boring stalemate at that. Have stated before that the public slanging match we have seen here does none of you any credit and cheapens the conversation. Have always said that VVV has a case with SOME substance positives but am dead against steroids and the like. Agree with you to some degree why there are not more posters making comment, but its not because we fear ridicule from others, more that we know some will not move on the subject.

But don't let me stop you Dot, you have certainly made for some interesting reading.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Brad

You are right I will not bend on this issue racing can not survive if therapeutics are not permitted to be used. Which is why they are permitted almost world wide.

The call for the out of competition testing for therapeutics would cripple the industry in both a loss of horses and a cost to complete the testing.

I for one would be much happier if we started by testing more winners post race including 2 hour TCO2 tests for things that go like a lear jet and more horses pre race for TCO2 this will do more to enhance the credibility of the sport than making a steroid used on a horse just back in work that may have spelled poorly an offence.

Sure the gallops test more out of competition than we do but the again they test every winner first and be assured they are not testing out of competition for steroids either.

[Messenger]

I have bumped this thread as I came across it when looking as to where I should make the following post and found it a fascinating read (until we got into a stalemate near the end)
It was before my time on the forum. Mark, Dizz, VVV - most interesting and entertaining (although VVV did show why he needed to quit as a Mod see Post 208 for an example)
But the most memorable post was Breno's Post 110 at the bottom of Pg11
Don't read the thread in one sitting as it will do your head in

Back to today: For the majority who do not subscrible to PeterProfit's blog I am providing this link to The Black Horse Newsletter.

https://www.goldrushpublications.com/general-4

You will find some of his thoughts on drugs in racing in the newsletters second story

Today in his blog Archie (PP) has given up and said that the only way to achieve a level playing field is to legalize all drugs so that all are free/able to (if they wish) use the drugs that the cheats are using

[trish]

God Kev they were the days . So much fun back then until one day!!!. Still want to know who Voice Of Reason was.

Does anyone know who he really was. Been told many names but would still love to know the truth.

OR does he want to put his real name up like everyone else.

[Messenger]

Dizzy/Dot & Mark on one side v Voice Of Reason & V V V on the other

It made me think about Dot today and look at her forum exit
I regret pissing Dot off on the Showgrounds Poll thread, she was intense but she was good.
In hindsight I should have worded it that 'HRV should investigate ...... and although I never said $60m would guarantee our future (I should have said 'might' instead of could)

I wasn't a much better moderator than Jamie on that day
Nobody likes being accused of being 'untruthful' and I can't deny that I want the forum to be a fun place but whether I have skin in the game (other than pouring time into this forum) does not mean that I live in fantasy land, don't care about the industry or don't want earnest discussion - on that particular day I was not up for it - I just wanted to put a Poll up

Lately I feel like I am struggling to keep the forum alive
I think that it will just die, if there is not at least one new post each day - a reason for people to visit
Why do I bother? Because I think we need a place/places where we can have a say

You're welcome back anytime Dot, arguments/disagreements are part of most days, and then we start over again the next day

[Mighty Atom]

I have bumped this thread as I came across it when looking as to where I should make the following post and found it a fascinating read (until we got into a stalemate near the end)
It was before my time on the forum. Mark, Dizz, VVV - most interesting and entertaining (although VVV did show why he needed to quit as a Mod see Post 208 for an example)
But the most memorable post was Breno's Post 110 at the bottom of Pg11
Don't read the thread in one sitting as it will do your head in

Back to today: For the majority who do not subscrible to PeterProfit's blog I am providing this link to The Black Horse Newsletter.

https://www.goldrushpublications.com/general-4

You will find some of his thoughts on drugs in racing in the newsletters second story

Today in his blog Archie (PP) has given up and said that the only way to achieve a level playing field is to legalize all drugs so that all are free/able to (if they wish) use the drugs that the cheats are using

Hi Kev,

Using your quote Today in his blog Archie (PP) has given up and said that the only way to achieve a level playing field is to legalize all drugs so that all are free/able to (if they wish) use the drugs that the cheats are using[/QUO


I've always been an advocate for the use of therapeutic drugs for horses. Anabolic steroids are used therapeutically to help a horse recover from illness. Anabolics help the body repair itself, improve the horse's appetite, and increase the volume of red blood cells what's not to like about that.

Today's racing is focused on speed which places undue pressure on the horse particularly the legs so any treatment that helps recovery in my mind is welcome. It's no secret that top trainers with their vets have learnt to use these drugs within the rules of racing so why not make it available to everyone.

Naturally, I reject any drug that pushes a horse beyond its natural ability ( the 1980s comes to mind)

I could write a book on the period I was involved with harness racing boy that would be an eye-opener.

[Showgrounds]

Hmm. What PP has been referring to has not involved any anabolic steroids. It is much, much worse.

Where is the the outrage about this decision by the toothless HRV?

https://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=51318

I searched the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Products Authority website https://apvma.gov.au/ which lists every registeredveterinary product sold in Australia. The substance the offender was found with, Bio Bleeder, isn't listed because it is not a registered product. One would hope Customs is following up the acquisition of this product, it is out of the jurisdiction of harness racing officials to act other than provide evidence.

If you have been following US legal proceedings against cheating horse trainers and vets you would know this and similar concoctions by their street name - EPO. Elephant juice.

In the US trainers are being sent to jail over use of this juice. Here, Rhys Nicholson- despite seeming as unhelpful as he possibly be during the inquiry - cops $4,500 in fines and is free to go about his business!

Why would any person new to the game want to get involved? Why are long term participants walking away?

PP's column questioning whether we should "legalise drug" however was pointed directly at The Fortunate Son, which ran 1:49.4 winning by more than 20 metres at Menangle on Tuesday. In my half-century's involvement in the business has taught me anything it is horses of the ilk of this one only record times like this when travelling in the back of a float.

[aussiebreno]

I had forgotten where I picked up that analogy Kev but its certainly something I've carried on thinking.

As for letting it be a drug FFA. It simply would not appease RSPCA/PETA etc.

[Mighty Atom]

Looks like they are regressing to the bad old days in the US. I'm not sure if they ever went away. Australia? well, I did mention the 1980s ( Etorphine - elephant juice, Sublimaze - fentanyl, EPO and a few more ). Thoroughbred horse trainers were convicted of using the drug here in WA in the 80s one trainer was convicted twice it became so serious that it was reported any further positive swabs to Etorphine would see the perpetrator doing jail time. It was also suggested harness racing was not without fault either.

Remember the outrage in the US of rattlesnake venom being used a few years back. Here, in Australia: Racing stewards have received intelligence that a form of sea snail venom has been imported into Australia and used to manage pain in horses suspected to have raced in the thoroughbred and harness codes this was in 2019.

It's just naive to think horse trainers and their vets are not looking for that winning edge but as I said if it is detrimental to a horse's wellbeing then that is criminal. Whenever one of these drugs and the drug cheat is exposed it brings nothing but suspicion and shame to whatever code of racing.