Penrith Race 4 19/7/12

[aussiebreno]

Well well well.

I'll start with the defence. Alta Onassis was down in grade. He had been racing on pace (although he hadn't drawn back line last 5).

Now I'll go on the attack. How the f did that happen. Leading Lavros. Name says it all, its a leader. Read its form, its a deadset leader, drawn the front 4 times last 5 out, led 3 times and death seat once. The driver didn't go the whip once. I doubt the horse knew it was the home straight and time to get going. Leading Lavros looked good winning in 1.59 3 starts (backed up by quick times last two) but looked ordinary in 2.02 tonight.

Deadset joke.

[mightymo]

and to make matters a lot worse... they were stablemates!!!

[aussiebreno]

and to make matters a lot worse... they were stablemates!!!
Yep.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18348

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/punters-cut-loose-over-controversial-menangle-finish-20110924-1kqjk.html

[broncobrad]

Yep.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18348

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/punters-cut-loose-over-controversial-menangle-finish-20110924-1kqjk.html

That name just keeps popping up doesn't it brenno.
No need to guess which one I backed, suffice to say the bulk of punters saw it the same way as me. Even the astonishment in Freds voice said it all.

[Triple V]

Geeze, more choreography involved there than Harley Medcalf's 'Burn The Floor'.


http://blogs.ucanews.com/give-us-this-day/files/2012/01/dance_steps.jpg
1-2 cha cha cha 1-2 cha cha cha

[mark diegutis]

RACE 4 – OAMPS PACE - 2125 METRES
Pre race blood samples were taken from ALTA ONASSIS NZ.
Driver H James (HACHEM) pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 163(1)(a) for causing interference in the approaching the 2000 metres he commenced to shift his runner in from a two wide position when not clear of AMBUSH PRINCE causing that runner to be checked and raced roughly. In assessing penalty stewards took into account H James’s guilty plea and driving record. H James had his licence to drive in races suspended for a period of 7 days.
SKITZO was held up for clear running until approaching the 100 metres.
NORMS SPIRIT was held up for clear running until passing the 50 metres.
A post race veterinarian examination of LEADING LAVROS NZ did not reveal any abnormalities.
Stewards opened an enquiry into the driving tactics of S Golding (LEADING LAVROS NZ) and M Muscat (ALTA ONASSIS NZ). After taken evidenced from both drives and trainer K Pizzuto the enquiry was adjourned for a time and date to be fixed. Stewards further requested that S Golding, M Muscat and K Pizzuto must supply their phone records and betting account information.
Post race swab samples were taken from ALTA ONASSIS NZ.
Post race blood samples were taken from LEADING LAVROS NZ.


Cheers
Trish

[broncobrad]

It would appear some of us are whistling the same tune that the stewards are playing, whilst some would rather just play their own music because they don't like the sound of ours. You can't keep drowning us out VVV. We've all got eyes and call it how we see it. Guilty or innocent makes no difference to me...atleast the stewards are acting on a suspect race. Can't ask for more than that. Cannot wait for the inevitable Youtube clip to appear.

[Triple V]

????? The old misplaced self-righteousness routine eh? Brad. You're not so quick off the pitch today huh?
Suggest you go look up the meaning of the word Choreography, especially as it applies to that race, BEFORE you open your trap. I was agreeing with you Trooper. It looked awful. Breno's right on the money.

[broncobrad]

????? The old misplaced self-righteousness routine eh? Brad. You're not so quick off the pitch today huh?
Suggest you go look up the meaning of the word Choreography, especially as it applies to that race, BEFORE you open your trap. I was agreeing with you Trooper. It looked awful. Breno's right on the money.

:pWell stop being so bloody cryptic VVV. My bad. The way I read it, it was a crack at the usual suspects (AKA moi and the like) getting onto the usual bandwagon, blowing the whistles and honking the horns when we are getting served up what can only be termed questionable performances. Still, take a freeby at me at my expense but take into account your "Jatz's" welfare were mentioned in my prayers. We are due a Youtube 'Special' :o

[Toohard]

:pWell stop being so bloody cryptic VVV. My bad. The way I read it, it was a crack at the usual suspects (AKA moi and the like) getting onto the usual bandwagon, blowing the whistles and honking the horns when we are getting served up what can only be termed questionable performances. Still, take a freeby at me at my expense but take into account your "Jatz's" welfare were mentioned in my prayers. We are due a Youtube 'Special' :o

This one??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf670orHKcA

[Triple V]

:pWell stop being so bloody cryptic VVV. My bad. The way I read it, it was a crack at the usual suspects (AKA moi and the like) getting onto the usual bandwagon, blowing the whistles and honking the horns when we are getting served up what can only be termed questionable performances. Still, take a freeby at me at my expense but take into account your "Jatz's" welfare were mentioned in my prayers. We are due a Youtube 'Special' :o

[VVV] Hahahahaha. That's a fair call.
If it's any consolation I get that from Mrs. Triple too sometimes. I reference useless stuff I think everyone remembers only to find I'm the only one who remembers it. :(
I was very disappointed too because for the younger set here I specifically tossed in a more recent reference by way of 'Burn The Floor' too. My initial thought was to go with an Arthur Murray Dance School floor chart. :rolleyes:
In all seriousness though, today's Punters are a very bloodly mild old lot as compared to days gone by. These days, and even if they all get handled like the taps in public dunny you'll rarely if ever even hear a verbal from the crowd. Back when I was a kid they'd burned the Grandstand down. I wasn't at Penrith on Thursday night but years ago I reckon that would have been worth at least a couple of hot pies launched over the fence.

[Danno]

[VVV] Hahahahaha. That's a fair call.
If it's any consolation I get that from Mrs. Triple too sometimes. I reference useless stuff I think everyone remembers only to find I'm the only one who remembers it. :(
I was very disappointed too because for the younger set here I specifically tossed in a more recent reference by way of 'Burn The Floor' too. My initial thought was to go with an Arthur Murray Dance School floor chart. :rolleyes:
In all seriousness though, today's Punters are a very bloodly mild old lot as compared to days gone by. These days, and even if they all get handled like the taps in public dunny you'll rarely if ever even hear a verbal from the crowd. Back when I was a kid they'd burned the Grandstand down. I wasn't at Penrith on Thursday night but years ago I reckon that would have been worth at least a couple of hot pies launched over the fence.

Back in "the good old days" every time you got beat on a "shortie" ( in those days a shortie was 10/9 , thats $2.20 folks), the mugs in the bleachers, that being the ledger at HP or any other designated "pisspot spot" at any track anywhere, you got a serve off the 50 cents each way experts, pure human theatre...I always got a cackle out of it, nowadays they'd chuck the poor silly buggers out before anyone gets a laugh out of it....so nobody is "offended"...it offends me that this spontaneous interaction is no longer possible due the way our world is going, in those days you worked out "how to get a laugh" rather than "how to get offended".
I was often called a "deigo" by one silly bugger at Newcastle, with a surname of Gibson, I'm sure that was the first thing that sprang into his tiny mind, but he still called me a "deigo bastard" every chance he got... Ive never really asked a lot of others about their favourite hecklers, maybe I should, could be a book in it I reckon.!

[Triple V]

I remember the throng of the needy and greedy who'd assemble every Friday Night on 'The Steps Of Knowledge' at HP used to yell out "Coma!" to Dave Aiken when he was racing a big team there. One pretty big guy I recall also ran with a weekly & ultimately as regular as clockwork expression of his dislike for Andrew Peace. This he did by way of shouting "%$#! off back down the Hume you &%$#ing Mexican" as he went by in a prelim.
On the flipside, I recall Colgate Chris attracted a group of half arse wanna be gangsters & assorted feux hard case supporters who'd take it personally if someone went down to the rails and gave their pin-up boy a serve. I had a real go at him one night after they tag teamed Sabilize with Luck And Laughing & Exceptionally Smooth. Disgraceful. A number of them began to yell out and walk in my direction so I aimed up on them as well, pointing out what I felt were the many & varied faults in their paternal & maternal pedigrees & those of their associates.
It's pretty funny looking back but it wasn't at the time. IMO that was by far & away the worst, the most blatant & subsequently the worst ever to go unpunished team drive in the history of Harness Racing in Australia. Trevor would definitely recall that race. If ever there was a reason for an on-course riot. As I said, by and large today's Punters are a very meek & mild.

[broncobrad]

Steven Golding gets 28 days for what is now called an unacceptable drive...seems his unblemished NZ record may have been taken into account. Reckon he should buy himself a lottery ticket after that performance

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99478

The race 4 result is here http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=PE190712&ms=nsw complete with vision.

There is nothing in the article to suggest any further inquiries are proceeding.

[Triple V]

That's a manifestly light on senetnce for a stunt that, for me at least, was right up there with Evil Knievel jumping Snake River Canyon in a rocket.
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/105189.jpg

Notably, where's Mark and Dot and Dan and Lee and their individual and collective outrage?
For some reason they're not having much to say about this one, in fact their silence is thus far...deafening.
Ground Control to Major Tom? Can ya hear me Major Tom?

[Danno]

I reckon you slotted that one in just before going "ni ni's" Jamie, probably on a bit of a loose rein too, if my guess is correct.
you really shouldn't categorise people mate just because they don't happen to agree with you, there has been a fair bit said on another thtread about another subject, but to put a few of us in an "outrage" basket, simply because we have had similar views quite different to your own is, IMO getting a bit personal.
Just for the record, no, I don't think in this particular case, the penalty appears to fit the situation, but I wasn't privvy to the details of the enquiry, were you? The trainer's evidence in this case would have been critical to the charge laid and obviously so would the evidence put forward by both the drivers, did you sit through that?
On face value, the incident looked quite suss and at least an enquiry was held, charges laid and a penalty imposed. All without hard evidence like a positive swab, the like of which you have been defending, so if there are any inconsistencies here Triple they are yours by my reckoning.

Cheers,
Dan

[aussiebreno]

As I said on another forum, it just stinks team driving is such a hard thing to prove. So in that situation stewards are probably better off trying to find a betting account, but alas that is also easy to hide.

He got given an unsatisfactory drive, so 28 days I guess is the upper end of a sentence for that charge.

How about not giving horse every chance to win? Lead and won in 2 or 3 recent starts at the track seemed to be a winning tactic?
Failure to indicate a change of tactics? (Whether you agree with that rule or not).

[Thevoiceofreason]

As a matter of interest all...... the last one of this type of charge in NSW with very similar particulars, was at HP a couple of years back on two Michael Russo trained runners the driver who surrendered on a last start winner got I think six weeks.

Lost on appeal the judge said the decision was made too early in the race to be unacceptable at the time it was made.

So as Brendan said knowing and proving are unfortunately two very different things.

[Triple V]

I reckon you slotted that one in just before going "ni ni's" Jamie, probably on a bit of a loose rein too, if my guess is correct.
you really shouldn't categorise people mate just because they don't happen to agree with you, there has been a fair bit said on another thtread about another subject, but to put a few of us in an "outrage" basket, simply because we have had similar views quite different to your own is, IMO getting a bit personal.
Just for the record, no, I don't think in this particular case, the penalty appears to fit the situation, but I wasn't privvy to the details of the enquiry, were you? The trainer's evidence in this case would have been critical to the charge laid and obviously so would the evidence put forward by both the drivers, did you sit through that?
On face value, the incident looked quite suss and at least an enquiry was held, charges laid and a penalty imposed. All without hard evidence like a positive swab, the like of which you have been defending, so if there are any inconsistencies here Triple they are yours by my reckoning.

Cheers,
Dan


[VVV] The point I was trying to make was that sort of crap is a far bigger threat to the future of Harness Racing as a wagering medium than any old mate with a syringe will ever be.
Yet the drug related thread got Christ knows how many replies of outrage and this one appears to have comparitively scored 4/5ths of sweet FA. That's what I was getting at Dan.
Again I'll ask...where's your outrage and where's that of your compatriots for that which is the real threat to wagering/punter confidence? Any Punter worth his salt would have thrown his form guide in the bin and gone home.

[Lethal]

Jamie,
The last time Mark & I checked our website it does seem to have a lot of hits from one entity, wonder who?
It would seem that your crusade may be likened to that of 'Richard the Lionheart against the infidels' (bought that off ourselves, another $1 wasted)
because this thread seems to becoming off topic. Of course this issue is one of extreme importance, however it is a specific industry regulatory one. Drug abuse is more a governance problem which encompasses ALL sporting controlling bodies.

[Danno]

[VVV] The point I was trying to make was that sort of crap is a far bigger threat to the future of Harness Racing as a wagering medium than any old mate with a syringe will ever be.
Yet the drug related thread got Christ knows how many replies of outrage and this one appears to have comparitively scored 4/5ths of sweet FA. That's what I was getting at Dan.
Again I'll ask...where's your outrage and where's that of your compatriots for that which is the real threat to wagering/punter confidence? Any Punter worth his salt would have thrown his form guide in the bin and gone home.

Jamie,Jamie,jamie....,
I am deeply shocked by for your form reversal, I have been a keen participant of this forum for close to twelve months and not ONCE, NOT ONCE, have I witnessed you railing against team driving....another incidence of form reversal Jamie....now I COULD be crude and ask why? why? are you asking for the answers?? could it be an awakening?, or could it be a diversion? Last week the game was under threat from very sneaky drug exposure lobbyists, just trying to find one pour unsuspecting trainer who is currently getting 200% improvement out of every horse entering his yard.........BUT!!!!! now it's a bunch of honest people who are sick of having to compete with CONVICTED CHEATS!! that are causing you problems! geeze mate I do definitley NOT feel sorry for you or anyone else taken in by the crap these people spruke in order to placate the queries.

I for one feel sorrry for the people who have been seduced by these people, but some people believe a sucker's born every minute don't they Jamie??

Cheers,
Dan

[Triple V]

Jamie,Jamie,jamie....,
I am deeply shocked by for your form reversal, I have been a keen participant of this forum for close to twelve months and not ONCE, NOT ONCE, have I witnessed you railing against team driving....another incidence of form reversal Jamie....now I COULD be crude and ask why? why? are you asking for the answers?? could it be an awakening?, or could it be a diversion? Last week the game was under threat from very sneaky drug exposure lobbyists, just trying to find one pour unsuspecting trainer who is currently getting 200% improvement out of every horse entering his yard.........BUT!!!!! now it's a bunch of honest people who are sick of having to compete with CONVICTED CHEATS!! that are causing you problems! geeze mate I do definitley NOT feel sorry for you or anyone else taken in by the crap these people spruke in order to placate the queries.

I for one feel sorrry for the people who have been seduced by these people, but some people believe a sucker's born every minute don't they Jamie??

Cheers,
Dan

[VVV] Ahuh. Hmmmm. Interesting. Not once eh?
You know Dan, our esteemed Local, State & Federal Politicians count on that same short memory in order to get by. For a start, if you will, please go back to around June/July 2011 and have a good look through the thread involving the drive @ Menangle by the now sidelined Ben Sarina aboard the now banished to the whops Beef City Beau. But please, by all means, if it makes you feel better, shoot the messenger for merely holding up a mirror.

Thread title is Race 3 at Menangle, I kicked it off on June 11th, 2011. HRNSW re-opened the Inquiry on June 17th.

[Triple V]

Jamie,
The last time Mark & I checked our website it does seem to have a lot of hits from one entity, wonder who?
It would seem that your crusade may be likened to that of 'Richard the Lionheart against the infidels' (bought that off ourselves, another $1 wasted)
because this thread seems to becoming off topic. Of course this issue is one of extreme importance, however it is a specific industry regulatory one. Drug abuse is more a governance problem which encompasses ALL sporting controlling bodies.

[VVV] ???????????? Website?

[Danno]

[VVV] Ahuh. Hmmmm. Interesting. Not once eh?
You know Dan, our esteemed Local, State & Federal Politicians count on that same short memory in order to get by. For a start, if you will, please go back to around June/July 2011 and have a good look through the thread involving the drive @ Menangle by the now sidelined Ben Sarina aboard the now banished to the whops Beef City Beau. But please, by all means, if it makes you feel better, shoot the messenger for merely holding up a mirror.

Thread title is Race 3 at Menangle, I kicked it off on June 11th, 2011. HRNSW re-opened the Inquiry on June 17th.

Jamie,
I have been a member of this forum for 9 months..just checked 24/11/2011...so my statement that I have not witnessed you commenting about team driving is totally true and accurate, unlike some of the stuff you stand your ground on. ( has Dot been paid yet?) I do not suffer with short memory and I take that remark as a personal affront.
Whilst I know people get can banned for personal attacks, I have noticed in this time, that some people, yourself included seem to able to do so without suffering similar consequences, I honestly don't know why, maybe you've got your tongue in a dark place?? who knows? who cares?

[Thevoiceofreason]

Jamie,
I have been a member of this forum for 9 months..just checked 24/11/2011...so my statement that I have not witnessed you commenting about team driving is totally true and accurate, unlike some of the stuff you stand your ground on. ( has Dot been paid yet?) I do not suffer with short memory and I take that remark as a personal affront.
Whilst I know people get can banned for personal attacks, I have noticed in this time, that some people, yourself included seem to able to do so without suffering similar consequences, I honestly don't know why, maybe you've got your tongue in a dark place?? who knows? who cares?

Now Now boys play nice.

[Triple V]

Jamie,
I have been a member of this forum for 9 months..just checked 24/11/2011...so my statement that I have not witnessed you commenting about team driving is totally true and accurate, unlike some of the stuff you stand your ground on. ( has Dot been paid yet?) I do not suffer with short memory and I take that remark as a personal affront.
Whilst I know people get can banned for personal attacks, I have noticed in this time, that some people, yourself included seem to able to do so without suffering similar consequences, I honestly don't know why, maybe you've got your tongue in a dark place?? who knows? who cares?

[VVV] So it's ok for you to have a dig...but get it back and you go all Hot House Flower? Is that how you roll?

[Triple V]

Now Now boys play nice.

[VVV] It's Ok Bill. The Tape Recorder & Diamond Des are safe. ;)

[Lethal]

Jamie, you sure have a short memory, you know the website, the one where you purchase your 'Conspiracy Theories Online' with the link to 'Convoluted words combined' Hey and they are still cheap at $1. We traced the IP address guess who?

[dizzy]

VVV given that I don't punt, rarely look at the form and am working most of the time so rarely see a race, and this thread is about a specific race that I know nothing about the form for and haven't seen just how is it you expect me to be outraged? I defer here to Brad and Brenno who both obvioulsy are keener observers then me, if they though it suss then so be it. Just a question though, wasn't the price a bit long on the winner if there was definately something suss going on? Of course there is plenty of betting that is not revealed in the price listed in the results.

As a generalisation of course team driving or the perception of team driving is a threat to turn over but VVV you must have rocks in your head if you think team driving is worse for the future of the sport then doping. Team driving and other on track indiscretions will turn punters off the sport and reduce our income but doping and horse abuse will galvanise public opinion against us. I cant see the disgruntled punters ever marching on Maquarie St because of team driving but I sure as heck can see the animal rights people doing it because of animal abuse.

[Triple V]

Jamie, you sure have a short memory, you know the website, the one where you purchase your 'Conspiracy Theories Online' with the link to 'Convoluted words combined' Hey and they are still cheap at $1. We traced the IP address guess who?

[VVV] Lee, please...clue me in. What in blue blazes are you talking about????? Are you in need of a new script for your daily medication?

[Triple V]

G'day Dot,
I am saying right here, right now, straight up, carved in stone then gold paint applied to the lettering, for all the world to see...that in terms of Harness Racing Punters having confidence and faith that the form for our wagering product is of a consistent, valid, handicappable nature, performance enhancing drugs are most definitely of a secondary concern. Not to me, not to you, no doubt not to most if not all Industry Participants but in the big scheme of things it is not us that drives the bus. The battle against performance enhancing drugs is almost entirely a participant driven one.
By & large the Punters could not give a fat rats arse if each and every horse went out onto the track in a full sweat with their eyes rolling in the heads and tuned up like an F1 car, just so long as they did so each and every time and they raced accordingly, as in they raced the same way, each and every time.
Why do you think that TCO2 testing was instituted?
Despite what Officialdom generally might like the Industry Participants to believe, in reality it was NOT and never had anything whatsoever to do with any performance enhancing aspects.
Rather it was wholly and solely to do with the press button ability to manipulate form a box of good old Arm & Hammer affords someone who might choose to take a walk down that road and that ability to manipulate form threatened the integrity of the wagering product and that in turn threatened turnover and that in turn threatened the rivers of gold flowing into State Government coffers as a result of wagering taxation.
Don't drench for weeks on end then Bi-carb one week and down the road we go at 30/1, then don't do so the next and the arse falls back out of them again. The core reason for TCO2 testing is no more noble than that. The level playing field aspect of it is a convenient and no doubt a welcome by-product but it was always PUNT driven.

[aussiebreno]

Just a question though, wasn't the price a bit long on the winner if there was definately something suss going on? Of course there is plenty of betting that is not revealed in the price listed in the results.

.
Absolutely. Mind is blown at that part. Even so, imo, there is no way either Muscat or Golding would have driven like that if there was only one in the field.

[aussiebreno]

G'day Dot,
I am saying right here, right now, straight up, carved in stone then gold paint applied to the lettering, for all the world to see...that in terms of Harness Racing Punters having confidence and faith that the form for our wagering product is of a consistent, valid, handicappable nature, performance enhancing drugs are most definitely of a secondary concern. Not to me, not to you, no doubt not to most if not all Industry Participants but in the big scheme of things it is not us that drives the bus. The battle against performance enhancing drugs is almost entirely a participant driven one.
By & large the Punters could not give a fat rats arse if each and every horse went out onto the track in a full sweat with their eyes rolling in the heads and tuned up like an F1 car, just so long as they did so each and every time and they raced accordingly, as in they raced the same way, each and every time.
Why do you think that TCO2 testing was instituted?
Despite what Officialdom generally might like the Industry Participants to believe, in reality it was NOT and never had anything whatsoever to do with any performance enhancing aspects.
Rather it was wholly and solely to do with the press button ability to manipulate form a box of good old Arm & Hammer affords someone who might choose to take a walk down that road and that ability to manipulate form threatened the integrity of the wagering product and that in turn threatened turnover and that in turn threatened the rivers of gold flowing into State Government coffers as a result of wagering taxation.
Don't drench for weeks on end then Bi-carb one week and down the road we go at 30/1, then don't do so the next and the arse falls back out of them again. The core reason for TCO2 testing is no more noble than that. The level playing field aspect of it is a convenient and no doubt a welcome by-product but it was always PUNT driven.
Pretty much agree with this post.

[dizzy]

VVV I've no doubt that punters want a consistent wagering product and without it they will stray, but if you think it is acceptable to produce "consistency" through all parties using performance enhancing drugs then think again. The public will not accept us training off the end of a needle, the end result being that those very politicians in the government into which our declining river of wagering gold flows will gladly cast us asunder in order to save their own jobs. There are far far more votes in animal welfare then there ever will be in harness racing.

[Thevoiceofreason]

VVV given that I don't punt, rarely look at the form and am working most of the time so rarely see a race, and this thread is about a specific race that I know nothing about the form for and haven't seen just how is it you expect me to be outraged? I defer here to Brad and Brenno who both obvioulsy are keener observers then me, if they though it suss then so be it. Just a question though, wasn't the price a bit long on the winner if there was definately something suss going on? Of course there is plenty of betting that is not revealed in the price listed in the results.

As a generalisation of course team driving or the perception of team driving is a threat to turn over but VVV you must have rocks in your head if you think team driving is worse for the future of the sport then doping. Team driving and other on track indiscretions will turn punters off the sport and reduce our income but doping and horse abuse will galvanise public opinion against us. I cant see the disgruntled punters ever marching on Maquarie St because of team driving but I sure as heck can see the animal rights people doing it because of animal abuse.

Actually Dot

Jamie like it or not is 100% right team driving will do more to harm the sport long term than any positive swab inquiries.

I say this because there are no drugs being used in Harness Racing that are not also being used in the gallops if you doubt me check the RacingNSW website and check out their penalties for their Trainers it will list the same substances.

As you know both codes are funded by betting turnover, turnover is driven by customer confidence, in racings case that means punter confidence.

Now the names Red Hots, Cheats On Seats, Jokes On Spokes ect that all Harness People rightly detest did not come about or continue in popular vernacular because of positive swab cases they all came about and continue to be used in reference to racetrack indiscretions as you put it.

As I have said and continue to shout loudly the fast majority of positive swabs in both this code and the gallops with the exception of TCO 2 are therapeutic administrations gone wrong .... There will be no march to any politician because a vet recommends the use of a registered therapeutic substance.

EPO is being looked for and people using it will be punished just as they have been in Victoria in both codes.

Apparently the gallops in the UK tried the ban steroids completely idea I am told on good authority with Zero success.

There is no indication there is widespread misuse in either code of Illicit drugs and when someone is found to be using same such as EPO they are punished...now you are a little older than me I think and I am not sure how I will collect but I am happy to take evens there will be no animal rights people marching down Maquarie street on this issue in your or my lifetime..... on the other hand we have already witnessed a huge march away from the TAB windows in relation to betting on trotting.

Its time to get real, unless the overall image improves in relation to the competitiveness of Harness races its all over... it will kill the game quicker than positive swabs.

[dizzy]

Actually Dot

Jamie like it or not is 100% right team driving will do more to harm the sport long term than any positive swab inquiries.

I say this because there are no drugs being used in Harness Racing that are not also being used in the gallops if you doubt me check the RacingNSW website and check out their penalties for their Trainers it will list the same substances.

As you know both codes are funded by betting turnover, turnover is driven by customer confidence, in racings case that means punter confidence.

Now the names Red Hots, Cheats On Seats, Jokes On Spokes ect that all Harness People rightly detest did not come about or continue in popular vernacular because of positive swab cases they all came about and continue to be used in reference to racetrack indiscretions as you put it.

As I have said and continue to shout loudly the fast majority of positive swabs in both this code and the gallops with the exception of TCO 2 are therapeutic administrations gone wrong .... There will be no march to any politician because a vet recommends the use of a registered therapeutic substance.

EPO is being looked for and people using it will be punished just as they have been in Victoria in both codes.

Apparently the gallops in the UK tried the ban steroids completely idea I am told on good authority with Zero success.

There is no indication there is widespread misuse in either code of Illicit drugs and when someone is found to be using same such as EPO they are punished...now you are a little older than me I think and I am not sure how I will collect but I am happy to take evens there will be no animal rights people marching down Maquarie street on this issue in your or my lifetime..... on the other hand we have already witnessed a huge march away from the TAB windows in relation to betting on trotting.

Its time to get real, unless the overall image improves in relation to the competitiveness of Harness races its all over... it will kill the game quicker than positive swabs.

Bill you make some good points and really its a bit like asking what will kill a drug abuser with cancer sooner. But I wouldn't discount the power of the animal welfare lobby, that one VVV is the one that really is in growth mode not the drug testers. And they did make both codes change the whip rules though VVV probably has a theory that that was the TAB too.

We may race the same species Bill but apart from that its like comparing a chihuahua with a rotweiller in terms of income and public support. As Mark said its not that the TB"s arent up to any shenanigans its that they are big enough to survive the fallout. At about the time I went on the odd foxhunt I was also riding trackwork, many a gallops trainer then, and I doubt that its changed now, would have gladly dispensed with harness racing in order to expand gallops racing, taking both our time slots and punters. Though actually back then I don't think they would have been interested in Friday nights. Interesting how that wheel has turned, we have abandoned our inner city friday night under lights time slot in favour of a big track in the back blocks whilst the ATC works frantically towards having friday night racing under lights at Randwick.

Bill they obviously don't teach it in Manager school but it is taught in ATC-never assume. You have continually stated the majority of positives are to therapeutic drugs, and thats true but you haven't established that these have been obtained and administered legally. Lets take Boldonone for example (though it is a moot point if its a therapeutic or performance enhancing drug) When Gai Waterhouse was fined for a positive swab to boldonone the administration was traced back to a vet on a spelling farm, a legal administration. Yet when Mr's Lew and McCarthy had horses return positive post race swabs to Boldonone both claimed that they didn't even know what the drug was. How do you reconcile that with a legal therapeutic adminstration?

I don't know if they tried to ban anabolic steroids in the UK or not, but I do know that harness racing in the UK is a hobby only, and I do think that most people know the state of UK wagering and purses on gallops racing, they are miniscule in comparison with ours. But in Sweden, where harness racing is the big deal in town as far as racing goes the Swedish Administration banned a trainer for eight years for giving steroids to three of his horses. This was not in conjuction with racing but for an out of competition test. Perhaps Tee Cee can help out here -Harnesslink carried the story, I think it was december last year.

Speaking of things Swedish you may be interested to know that Sharon Lang after returning from the Elitlopp this year told me that Swedish citizens can and do sue drivers in civil court if they have been "offended" by the manner in which a driver used the whip in a race.

You have me at a disadavantage on the age thing Bill as I don't know you at all but lets say if you are who a number of people in the past have speculated on who you are then you are correct, I am a little older then you but I'm sure I don't look it!! I don't share your certainty on the future actions of the animal welfare exponents but given that I doubt that my life span has that much longer to run-high stress job, bad genes, bad eating habbits, high risk hobbies-I will decline to bet.

I've no doubt that our contribution to turnover is in serious decline but aren't you and VVV neglecting the agreement that guarantees our share, you know the one the greyhound people are currently rallying against? So wouldn't that make the real issue for harness racing with regard to both the use of performance enhancing drugs and on track collusion not the driving away of the punter but the driving away of the participant? At least in the short term because doesn't that agreement have the better part of 99 years to run?

[Triple V]

VVV I've no doubt that punters want a consistent wagering product and without it they will stray, but if you think it is acceptable to produce "consistency" through all parties using performance enhancing drugs then think again. The public will not accept us training off the end of a needle, the end result being that those very politicians in the government into which our declining river of wagering gold flows will gladly cast us asunder in order to save their own jobs. There are far far more votes in animal welfare then there ever will be in harness racing.

[VVV] Although we said exactly the same thing, Bill has said it all far more eloquently than I ever could Dot so I'll leave it there.
You'll have to excuse me now if you don't mind. I'm heading off on a 4 week trip to the Arctic Ice Shelf in order to club some Fur Seal pups & harpoon a few Whales, outlaw animal hater that I am. Taking a 12-guage and hoping to blast a few Penguins as well if weather permits.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Dot

I like VVV am about to bow out of this argument but a few final corrections to what you have said,

Boldenone is naturally occurring in male horses unlike the Gai Waterhouse case you rely on which was a filly and therefore no Boldenone as a naturally occurring substance in other words it had to be administered.

The Uk turnover on racing on a per race basis oustrips the Aussie turnover, if you doubt me go to the IFHA for the stats we run approxomatly 4 times more races which is the only reason we hold more and by the way we do not hold even twice as much its the funding model that is floored there no the actual amount that is bet.

If you think that the 99 year agreement known as the Intercode Agreement will stand up for 99 years, you are kidding yourself we as an industry are guaranteed a certain percentage return today that is true but the gallops and the dogs are as you know are lobbying government to have it reviewed and make no bones it will happen sooner than later, whilst it is clear you care about the sport it is its racetrack image that is driving people away from betting not positive swabs.

I doubt your a punter and to be honest I doubt if you know any professional punters to source there actual views be assured I do and have.

[dizzy]

Dot

I like VVV am about to bow out of this argument but a few final corrections to what you have said,

Boldenone is naturally occurring in male horses unlike the Gai Waterhouse case you rely on which was a filly and therefore no Boldenone as a naturally occurring substance in other words it had to be administered.

The Uk turnover on racing on a per race basis oustrips the Aussie turnover, if you doubt me go to the IFHA for the stats we run approxomatly 4 times more races which is the only reason we hold more and by the way we do not hold even twice as much its the funding model that is floored there no the actual amount that is bet.

If you think that the 99 year agreement known as the Intercode Agreement will stand up for 99 years, you are kidding yourself we as an industry are guaranteed a certain percentage return today that is true but the gallops and the dogs are as you know are lobbying government to have it reviewed and make no bones it will happen sooner than later, whilst it is clear you care about the sport it is its racetrack image that is driving people away from betting not positive swabs.

I doubt your a punter and to be honest I doubt if you know any professional punters to source there actual views be assured I do and have.

Bill I fear you are confused or being deliberately confusing.

Yes Gai's horse was a filly and like geldings has a zero threshold for boldonone, so it must be administered to cause a positive swab. And it was by a vet which made it a legal therapeutic administration. Yes you can give steroids to a filly, its administered exactly the same as in a male horse but perhaps with more hesitation as a result of the possible impact on future reproduction, not something someone worries about with a gelding.

Entires have naturally occuring boldonone so they have a different threshold to fillies and geldings, and guess what its set a level that the experts determined that only a deliberate administration would result in a positive swab. So yes that means for an entire such as Mach Wiper or Karloo Kix it had to been administered and in order to be therapeutic and legal had to be prescribed by a vet. Without a prescription anabolic steroids are no more legal the cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine. The Poisons and Therapeutic Goods Act provides for up to 2 years in gaol for possession of anabolic steroids without a prescription, The Customs Act up to 5 years in gaol for unauthorised importation.

No comment on the swedish trainer banned for eight years for using anabolic steroids then Bill? His name is Nils Enqvist, the swedes wanted to give him life.

Of course I don't think the agreement will last which is why I said in the short term, IMO everything needs to be done to increase the participation level firstly. Afterall its much harder to team drive with a full field all from different stables.

Your right Bill I'm not a punter but you should be gratefull I didn't accept your bet as afterall it was actually a sure thing. There was nothing in your terms that prevented me from say organising Mark, Trish, Lee, Jett, Danno, and a rent a crowd of uni students and a few PETA radicals from face book to protest at parliment house before enjoying a little hospitality somewhere at your expense!