Trial 1 @ Menangle yesterday

[Triple V]

Watch this, in particular from just before they enter the straight all the way through to the line. http://www.trotstv.com.au/?id=5631 The horse that ends up finishing last in the Trial copped somewhere between 30 & 35 whip shots (tried counting them) from around about the entrance to the stretch & the shadows of the post. The stretch is 350m long. Inside the final furlong, unless my eyes deceive me, it wore some well & truly heavy ones and it wore them in rapid succession. Interested to hear what this Forum's resident animal welfare advocates think of that effort.
I'm guessing I'll not hear much because someone opening up on a horse like that in a Trial doesn't have quite the same air of intrigue & skullduggery that their chosen subject of drug cheats and anti-therapeutics does. Yesterday was just a damned Trial. That was shameful, absolutely bloody shameful.

[p plater]

Not a good look from a very experienced driver, surely the stewards must have said something, the horse was gone a long way from home.

[Frano1982]

Yesterday's stewards report has the driver copping a $200 fine for his trouble...

[Triple V]

A $200 fine? For a blatant beat down of a horse? Manifestly inadequate. :mad:

[Greg Hando]

Absolute bloody disgrace should have been double the fine and a holiday.

[mark diegutis]

A guy in Newcastle got 6 mths for flogging his horse like that in a trial, quite some time ago but the same should apply here.
I have sent all the information possible on to the RSPCA & awaiting their reply.
Thanks Jaimie for making us aware of this disgusting event, how would the driver like the same treatment.......
Trish

[Triple V]

G'day Trish,

In a sense that's unfortunate because it could so easily lead to a real mess and another black eye for the Industry. That being said I think it's also reasonable to suggest Mr. Cable had every opportunity to get on the front foot, deal with this on the spot, in house and strongly by of handing out more than that which effectively amounted to a mere slap on the wrist. Not good enough. Not by a long shot.
If nothing else, the public mood/view to which Dot & others have often referred was completely misjudged as far as this sort of thing is concerned. Nobody's going to cop seeing a horse beaten, racehorse or otherwise.
To hark back to part of an earlier topic, the use of registered equine therapeutics and so on will not get the animal welfare lobby marching on State Parliament but this kind of crap however...it will.
If we as an Industry don't look after our own business then we will most certainly have our business looked after for us. It's that simple. We either self regulate or we will be regulated.

[HISGEN65]

Good on ya lads...I HATE THIS SORT OF SHIT !!!..Cruelty & blatant lack of respect for animals that try their best are 2 of the main reasons why Im seriously thinking of hanging up the hopples & dusting off the riding gear

[geoffkel]

Good on ya lads...I HATE THIS SORT OF SHIT !!!..Cruelty & blatant lack of respect for animals that try their best are 2 of the main reasons why Im seriously thinking of hanging up the hopples & dusting off the riding gear

Why send it to the RSPCA, that is just trouble making. Alert the stewards is plenty. They will deal with it.

Did you alert the RSPCA that 3 horses were put down at the olympics cross country, or showpumping, more than likely not!!!!

[mark diegutis]

Why send it to the RSPCA, that is just trouble making. Alert the stewards is plenty. They will deal with it.

Did you alert the RSPCA that 3 horses were put down at the olympics cross country, or showpumping, more than likely not!!!!


I can do as I please Geoff & I have. The RSPCA are the only ones capable of doing something about this sort of abuse & the stewards had their chance & pray tell what did they do ... A $200 fine does not cut it.
The World Horse Welfare Association were present at all olympic equestrian events Geoff, Im sure the horses were treated more humanaly that the thousands that go through the doggers yards every year from the racing industry.
Don't you dare put the morals of the equestrian trainers & riders in the same cateragory as the racing industry. The racing industry does not compare with their standard.
Trish

[HISGEN65]

Why send it to the RSPCA, that is just trouble making. Alert the stewards is plenty. They will deal with it.

Did you alert the RSPCA that 3 horses were put down at the olympics cross country, or showpumping, more than likely not!!!!

Geoff i was thanking the others for bringing this to my attention more than thanking them for alerting the RSPCA ...I accept,however upsetting,that horses die in racing & equestrian pursuits but whipping the crap out of a horse in the public eye is what I was on about..no friggin need for it

[broncobrad]

I too would like to thank VVV for bringing this to all of our attention. He could easily have observed it and decided to ignore it, but he has highlighted it for all to see.

In a race, an improper use of the whip charge is also $200. In the heat of the moment and with bucks in the balance it is easy enough to see why a driver would CHOOSE to flout the rules. The horse wins, the expected fine is already paid for. Put simply, if whip standards are to be observed, much tougher penaltys should apply in the first place. And Geoff, really, if that was your horse getting the shit kicked out of it for ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE GOOD REASON how would you feel? If the RSPCA saw fit to pursue the offender, he would get no sympathy from me. If the industry was to get a black eye from such behaviour, they have brought it upon themselves by not enforcing strictly enough or having strong enough deterrents in place, in regard to the scant disregard of the over zealous or improper whipping action which we read about in almost every stewards report.

Its an area the industry could easily improve. IMO a horse will pick up the pace a bit by being tapped up. What are we asking of them when they are fair dinkum under the bat and are well and truly beaten?

[Triple V]

As an Industry we are largely the masters of our own destiny.
The easiest and by far the best way for Harness Racing to avoid ever having outside forces deciding what is right or wrong for us...is for us to decide what is right or wrong and not only act accordingly but be seen to have acted accordingly. Regulatory have dropped the ball here.

[clumsy]

I can do as I please Geoff & I have. The RSPCA are the only ones capable of doing something about this sort of abuse & the stewards had their chance & pray tell what did they do ... A $200 fine does not cut it.
The World Horse Welfare Association were present at all olympic equestrian events Geoff, Im sure the horses were treated more humanaly that the thousands that go through the doggers yards every year from the racing industry.
Don't you dare put the morals of the equestrian trainers & riders in the same cateragory as the racing industry. The racing industry does not compare with their standard.
Trish
You have made a big statement here Trish, Why would you think that the equestrian trainers & riders have better morals or care more about their horses than those in the racing industry.Spend a little time at pony club on the weekend and watch how the little darlings ride their horses using their spurs and whips.

[mark diegutis]

You have made a big statement here Trish, Why would you think that the equestrian trainers & riders have better morals or care more about their horses than those in the racing industry.Spend a little time at pony club on the weekend and watch how the little darlings ride their horses using their spurs and whips.

Pony clubs and other equestrian groups operate by a very strict code of conduct . They do not tolerate cruelty . Little darlings with spurs and whips are not committing acts of cruelty . Their pony's have such good lives , they wouldn't move without them .
The act of hitting a horse with a whip is not what I have a beef about . You couldn't hit them harder than they hit each other . I think the cruelty occurs when the horse has hit the wall and the driver keeps flogging them causing them to "bust" themselves . More dammage is done internally than externally and the worst thing is there is no reason whatsoever to do it . I watched a driver hit his horse 67 times from the 400 at Albion Park and the stewards report said they cautioned him . Unbeleivable
Mark always said that when he first came into Harness racing , the greatest difference between it and eventing was that in 20 years eventing never once did he witness an act of cruelty , but in harness racing you can see it at every track every day of the week . Big statement ---NO just the truth

[clumsy]

Pony clubs and other equestrian groups operate by a very strict code of conduct . They do not tolerate cruelty . Little darlings with spurs and whips are not committing acts of cruelty . Their pony's have such good lives , they wouldn't move without them .
The act of hitting a horse with a whip is not what I have a beef about . You couldn't hit them harder than they hit each other . I think the cruelty occurs when the horse has hit the wall and the driver keeps flogging them causing them to "bust" themselves . More dammage is done internally than externally and the worst thing is there is no reason whatsoever to do it . I watched a driver hit his horse 67 times from the 400 at Albion Park and the stewards report said they cautioned him . Unbeleivable
Mark always said that when he first came into Harness racing , the greatest difference between it and eventing was that in 20 years eventing never once did he witness an act of cruelty , but in harness racing you can see it at every track every day of the week . Big statement ---NO just the truth

I do not know of any horse racing group that tolerates cruelty,we all have a different use for our horses and one sport cannot say that they treat their horses any better than the other. It might surprise you but we all love our horses even though we have different uses for them. Remember these same animals have helped build our country by ploughing our land and helping to fight our wars. The pleasure horse of today entertains us in many different ways and as such should be appreciated by all of us no matter what discipline we follow.
I am now watching the jumping at the olympic games and enjoying it, lighten up Trish and enjoy the great sport of harness racing. The few that cheat and be cruel to their horses will get what they deserve. The stewards have erred on this one

[strong persuader]

Cannot agree with Trish here, every horse discipline will have an element of people who shouldn't be allowed to keep a pet rock let alone be entrusted with the care of a live animal.

One of the recent discussions is about a technique called rollkur, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c This is where the horse is tied in such a position as to enforce hyperflexion of the neck to achieve what the rider/owner deems to be a desired look.

This is no better than a trainer whacking on a barbed wire rein to stop a horse lugging, yes I have seen it done!

This is one case where the Stewards would have been quite right to come down heavy with a large fine and perhaps even some form of disqualification, as suspension still allows the mug to drive in trials.

The plight of the industry is in our own hands, the authorities need to get on board with the majority of people who are in the sport because they love the animal and stop aligning themselves with those that are just looking to make a dollar out of the game.

[Triple V]

Mark always said that when he first came into Harness racing , the greatest difference between it and eventing was that in 20 years eventing never once did he witness an act of cruelty , but in harness racing you can see it at every track every day of the week . Big statement ---NO just the truth

[VVV] Every track, every week? Trish, that's an extremely innacurate characterisation.
I've been involved in Harness Racing in one way or another since back when I was too short to even see over the outside fence and instead had to watch proceedings through the mesh, which is I guess some 39 years or so. In all of that time the number of times I have seen or have been reliably told about someone being straight up cruel to a horse is very small indeed. Instances are memorable no doubt...but by no means commonplace.
Harness, TB's, Jumps, Eventing, Pony Club, Polo, Endurance, you name it.......there's no equine persuit that is a paragon of virtue & none that have a mortgage on bad behaviour.
Unfortunately there will always be someone who loses their shit & lines one up or there will be someone who thinks the way to get one to go straight is to, as Phil noted, use a bit of barbed wire on a line or whatever.
When that happens there's no better pressure that can be brought to bear in any and all such instances than peer pressure, hence the reason for this thread. If that doesn't happen then the next step is suffering the morally anointed, batik sarong wearing, forelock tugging outrage of the Free The Battery Hens Collective & their associated minions...and that, as an Industry, we do not need.

[geoffkel]

Look I agree that it is not the right thing to be doing in a trial and yes the driver deserves a large fine.
As for the arguement about equestrian treating horses better than the racing industry what a joke, some of the things I have seen at past equestrian events would definitely open your eyes to the real world.
World Horse Welfare Association what a joke. Run mostly by members of the eventing fraternity no doubt!!!

[Triple V]

I was at a cross country event in VIC once where a horse was ridden so hard for so far that it charged down a hill, ploughed into a pretty deep water obstacle with a big splash, went under and never re-surfaced. The rider was left floundering around in the water. I reckon the horse had a heart attack.

[Toohard]

Not related to the thread but a bit of 'trivia' regarding that horse in the trial.

It was one of the horses that won one of those 37 races listed regarding the swabbing scandal.

Race 6 Menangle 18/10/2010.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Have a quick look at the clip of Race 2 from the the link I have just added yes it is from 2008 and prior to the whip rules changing but I do not recall any moral outrage from either Mark or Trish when this particular horse won under pretty vigorous whip use ...

Apparently Moral outrage is a dish best served cold.

Reporting the trial incident from this week to the RSPCA was over reaction in its highest form, the stewards dealt with the matter and imposed a penalty under the guidelines as they now stand, I am sure you will no doubt recall the penalties were much harsher when the whip rules first changed but it was the industry participants themselves that lobbied hard to have them reduced.... Talk about having your cake and eating it.

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=NR250908&ms=nsw

[eliteblood]

Absolutely chalk and cheese Bill, both in the extent of the whip usage and in the circumstances (one being driven out to win a race vs the other being flogged to run last in a trial)

[Thevoiceofreason]

Absolutely chalk and cheese Bill, both in the extent of the whip usage and in the circumstances (one being driven out to win a race vs the other being flogged to run last in a trial)

Do not get me wrong I am not in anyway condoning the actions in the trial, I am am however saying reporting this incident to the RSPCA is as over the top in reaction to the whip use is its self.

It may have been different if the incident went either unpunished or even worse unnoticed but it did not.

[strong persuader]

Just as an aside, this is where I think we are a bit backwards in our thinking regarding the whip. We encourage/allow drivers to drive a horse out in a tight finish, yet condemn anyone giving one that is dropping out a few good cracks..........Isn't this punishing the horse for getting close to the front end of the field and rewarding them for tailing off in a race!

I personally recall a horse that Dad raced many years ago, Tolaser. In his third win, I tailed him pretty good in a tight finish and got the bickies by a small margin. That horse never tried ever again, he would even begin lugging in the score up, after having been a fairly good beginner, just so he would race in the back half of the field and never ever tried to get in the finish.

I actually chastised Cynthia after Charlie Cullen's win for her efforts with the whip, as I felt she was trying to hit him too hard, and this horse has been pretty well punished in prior runs. I said that she only needs to keep tapping away at him, as like most horses, they are usually trying their best for you without needing to punish them with the whip. In my years, we have only had one horse that you had to hit to keep him trying, but even then, you didn't need to punish him, just keep giving him light smacks.

I confess to having come from the old school days when head down and whacking as hard as you could seemed to be the best way to drive one out. As a matter of fact, I even had one leading driver remark amongst a group that I was one of the few drivers he had seen that could turn a horse around when I hit them! But experience has taught me that this isn't the best way.

[dizzy]

I was at a cross country event in VIC once where a horse was ridden so hard for so far that it charged down a hill, ploughed into a pretty deep water obstacle with a big splash, went under and never re-surfaced. The rider was left floundering around in the water. I reckon the horse had a heart attack.

Wow I participated and/or followed eventing for 35 years now VVV and I never heard or read about a horse never resurfacing at the water jump so thats amazing VVV that you were there when it happened. You know the depth of the water in the water obstacle is covered in the rules, as is the footing, so they really cant be "pretty deep".

Only a few months ago I did hear about a standardbred yearling being long reined that dissappeared into a dam in all its gear, sadly between the reeds and the hopples he didn't make it out again. I'm sure you know enough people to check it out VVV if you don't believe me, it was on the south coast.

But event horses certainly do have heart attacks, 2 at the last British selection trial before the games even, a very sad occurrence, and event horses do run a reasonably high risk of catastrophic breakdowns and in a much rarer occurence the individual showjumping gold medal winner from Bejing died leaving the ring at a show in Verona Italy late last year from a ruptured aorta. But these are much rarer occurences in sports horses then they are in race horses.

You are right though VVV in that no horse sport has a mortage on cruel acts, they do occur in all horse pursuits, some intentional, some unwitting and on some occasions perfectly reasonable people manage to replace their head with a pumpkin, which is not an excuse for what they do.

Trish I'd have to say if Mark went eventing for 20 years and never saw a cruel act then perhaps he needed to look a little closer because I have no doubt they would have occurred but I do agree the prevelance in harness racing is greater. Phil "rolkur" has been banned for a number of years now and any rider caught using it will be santioned by either their national federation or the FEI. Of course it would be naive to think it doesn't still occur, afterall Anky Van Grunsven won literally a dozen gold medals using it, and like harness racing stewards equestrian officials cannot be all places at once.

Geoff despite what VVV thinks I have owned and looked after the vast majority of my own horses for 35 years and each has got the same standard of care, its only in the last 10 years that they have been standardbreds and I have repeatedly been told I spoil them. The phrase "cut its head off" is not in common usage in equestrian sport.

As to the original point of the topic, the drivers whip use was way out of line, and I think the penalty from the stewards should have been more significant. But my question to you VVV is if we do not need the "outrage of the free the battery hens collective and associated minions" why did you raise this on a public forum, where no doubt many a search engine can find it, instead of raising it directly with the stewards and/or the CEO to ensure it was dealt with appropriately? Afterall we know you have the number.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Dot the stewards have already dealt with it .... end of ... ring them all day every day and they can not rehear the case without fresh evidence so not much point ringing them.. later today I will watch the NRL and in every game a player or captain will argue with the reff about decisions.... have a guess what, not one will be changed, not one.

[dizzy]

Dot the stewards have already dealt with it .... end of ... ring them all day every day and they can not rehear the case without fresh evidence so not much point ringing them.. later today I will watch the NRL and in every game a player or captain will argue with the reff about decisions.... have a guess what, not one will be changed, not one.

Bill if you return to page 1 of this thread it is clearly evident that VVV started it without knowing what, if any action, the stewards took. My point is if you are truely concerned about the welfare of the horse and the image of the industry then shouldn't your first point of call be within our own industry, not a public forum. Decisions in a game may not be changed by lobbying the enforcers or makers of the rules, but the rules may be changed by doing so

[Triple V]

That is quite true Dot. I started this thread fully expecting that, because it was a trial, it had been completely ignored by Regulatory.
As odd as it may sound, you know I probably would have coped with that scenario (it having been completely ignored) a fair bit better than subsequently finding out that it was indeed seen but all it scored was a $200 slap on the wrist.
The Grapevine tells me that henceforth such behaviour will never be dealt on such a lenient basis, so at least something good has come from it all.

[Frano1982]

Not going over old ground again, but have a look at the replay of Race 7 at Newcastle yesterday...
I believe this was worse than what happened in that trial and the driver of the third horse only got a reprimand???

[Greg Hando]

You must be seeing something i can't see anything wrong

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

We all talk about the blokes who like to flog a horse. But check out this little princess. I lost count at 25. Stewards got her though!
http://www.harness.org.au/images/video-wmv.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/GUC18111204.wmv)

[broncobrad]

We all talk about the blokes who like to flog a horse. But check out this little princess. I lost count at 25. Stewards got her though!
http://www.harness.org.au/images/video-wmv.gif (http://www.harness.org.au/video/vic/GUC18111204.wmv)

My two PET HATES. One, they ping her for slow sectionals $100 fine for doing everything she can do to give her drive every possible chance to have something left in its legs. They should be fining every other driver for allowing her to do it. The stupidest rule in harness, contradictory at every level. Get rid of the rule.

Two, she gets fined $200 for excessive whip action. The original issue in the thread was a horse getting bashed when it could do no more and rightfully was highlighted as a blight. On this occassion Laura was using her persuasive ways on a horse that was responding to her urgings. Also well outside the guidelines, even though there are two different outcomes for both horses (ie one horse responding the other horse not). The problem lies in the fact that the industry is not FAIR DINKUM in taking this option away from drivers who, with so much riding on a successful result, will openly flout these rules. If they wanted to improve the image of harness, the fine should reflect community standards on animal welfare issues, not this little tap on the wrist and an"off you go Johnny, now be a good buy next time" Pigs arse!!! The next time they are in a scrap, that shillelagh will be flashing just as wildly as last time. See if the amount of excessive whip use charges drops dramatically if they start hitting them with $1,000 fines.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Brad, without getting into all the nitty gritty of sectional fines etc. I think a far more equitable out come would have been a double barrel from the said horse, half way up the home straight.

[broncobrad]

Boom, boom!!! An equitable deliverance of justice and I am sure the horse would agree whole-heartedly.

[Thevoiceofreason]

At the risk of upsetting most of you the penalties handed out to harness drivers for whip infringements are already pretty tough compared to their thoroughbred equivalent.

The average fine in the gallops for a whip infringement is around $300 that is or about 178% of the riding fee the jockey was paid for riding the horse.

The average fine in harness is as we all know about $200 that is about that is about 300% of the fee the driver got for driving the horse.

Penalties in the $1000's are a joke if they are a regular offender take the whip off them that shortens then up.

[aussiebreno]

At the risk of upsetting most of you the penalties handed out to harness drivers for whip infringements are already pretty tough compared to their thoroughbred equivalent.

The average fine in the gallops for a whip infringement is around $300 that is or about 178% of the riding fee the jockey was paid for riding the horse.

The average fine in harness is as we all know about $200 that is about that is about 300% of the fee the driver got for driving the horse.

Penalties in the $1000's are a joke if they are a regular offender take the whip off them that shortens then up.
And thats fair because it leaves future connections of horses and punters at a disadvantage....

[Thevoiceofreason]

And thats fair because it leaves future connections of horses and punters at a disadvantage....

I understand what you are saying but connections would know before the driver in engaged that he can not carry a whip, the reality is with a deterrent effect like that less and less drivers would take the risk.

There was a junior driver in the Hunter who lost the whip for a few weeks a few years back..... amazing how he tidied up his act after that.

[broncobrad]

So in essence Bill, you must agree that the industry (thoroughbreds included) are NOT FAIR DINKUM in their efforts to stamp out this practice...these penaltys are in fact window dressing to appease the animal liberationists. The industry can say, "Well we do have safe guards in place for the welfare of these animals and we do apply these penaltys when drivers/riders step over the line" and animal welfare organisations could easily take their cause further, BECAUSE IN REALITY A SOFT STANCE HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY THE INDUSTRY in addressing these issues.

Removal of the whip by offenders is wonderful idea, but I think there is a place for it when applied responsibly.

[Thevoiceofreason]

So in essence Bill, you must agree that the industry (thoroughbreds included) are NOT FAIR DINKUM in their efforts to stamp out this practice...these penaltys are in fact window dressing to appease the animal liberationists. The industry can say, "Well we do have safe guards in place for the welfare of these animals and we do apply these penaltys when drivers/riders step over the line" and animal welfare organisations could easily take their cause further, BECAUSE IN REALITY A SOFT STANCE HAS BEEN ADOPTED BY THE INDUSTRY in addressing these issues.

Removal of the whip by offenders is wonderful idea, but I think there is a place for it when applied responsibly.

Personally I do not see a great need for any further change my I think both industries have done a poor job of explaining how much softer the current whips are on horses in both codes.

I am not sure if you have ever had a close look at the whips used today but compared to the older style ones they are like chalk and cheese.

I think the style of the whip is actually much more important the the manner in which it is applied.