Standing Start V Mobile Barrier

[broncobrad]

On last weeks In The Gig they raised the topic of the standing start and in essence is it past its used by date.

In the first at Menangle today, a T0/T1 mobile over a mile, the $2.20 fav got left 50m at the start, just scoring up too slowly and the $2.60 2nd fav went off stride as the gate swung away. Both horses chances were gone at that point, mind you Who Elses run was a big pointer for the future. Nothing untoward suggested here either.

Just saying that there is no such thing as a certainty in racing, in this case the mobile was there to protect the interests of punters and connections alike yet things can still go awry even with the best of intentions. No matter how much you do to sure up runners chances, shit just happens. By the way Lenny, you made a good point with your tweet on that show. How indeed in 2012 do the strands still not release properly?:p

[2minuteman]

Way,way back,before the mobile was a twinkle in a mechanics eye,there were horses, both square gaiters and pacers who couldn't leave the barrier cleanly.However they were few and far between because the education of the horse included quite intense practice at the barrier.I can remember a horse that Norm Gath (Adelaide) had that would not leave the barrier,full stop.Mobile introduced in Melbourne,horse (name escapes me) goes north and becomes a cups/FFA runner.
So,horses for courses? Maybe.My opinion,for what it's worth, is that barrier practice is a forgotten art and the consequences of bad barrier behaviour are not so tough.
N.Z. has the right idea,break in the score-up,cause interference, and outside of the back row you go.
Another reason for horses breaking,especially square gaiters,is poor shoeing.A good farrier is worth as much as a good vet to a professional stable.
Having said that, the cynic in me asks that when a clean gaited horse inexplicably breaks or gallops at the barrier (or a TB misses the start) is it a result of poor education
or ?????

[teecee]

[QUOTE=2minuteman;23265]
N.Z. has the right idea,break in the score-up,cause interference, and outside of the back row you go.

Sorry Ron.. At the annual conference of clubs in NZ a remit was voted for that NZ follow Aust in regards to horses breaking behind the arm during the score up... One of many rules that are being changed to allign with Australia to protect the punter interest.
Personally I have horses who have impeccable standing start manners from practice but clubs persist in programming mobiles.

[eliteblood]

An outstanding field has come together for the standing start Avon City Ford Cup at Addington this Friday night.
It will be Sushi Sushi's first attempt at a standing start as he aims up on the New Zealand Cup in early November.
Also in the race are Auckland Reactor, Terror To Love, Gold Ace, Highview Tommy, Franco Emirate, Mah Sish and Sleepy Trip.

[broncobrad]

Teecee, I reckon thats a bit ordinary that your industry has voted to align your rules to suit the Australian punting product, can only summise it is dollar driven to cash in on extra revenue produced from Aussie tote pools? From what I see from Sky broadcasts, your standing start races on the whole generally produce rock solid starts from some pretty well-drilled horses. Will bet my patootie that the European SB clubs are not going to change any of their rules to suit the Aussie punter, for example if your horse gallops during running over there, well thats it, pull it up because it is DQ'ed, no second chances. Notice also when your horses are purchased by Aussies and they are having their first start over here, they are often very short in the market, usually faultless and invariably win first up. Are we just cashing in on the effort you guys are putting into your horses to get them to race with better manners?

[broncobrad]

An outstanding field has come together for the standing start Avon City Ford Cup at Addington this Friday night.
It will be Sushi Sushi's first attempt at a standing start as he aims up on the New Zealand Cup in early November.
Also in the race are Auckland Reactor, Terror To Love, Gold Ace, Highview Tommy, Franco Emirate, Mah Sish and Sleepy Trip.

Thats a race to salivate over Trevor, will be interesting to see what Mark has done with Sushi and how well schooled he is for the stand. See Natalie is in the bike and Mark will drive the Reactor.

[Triple V]

As far as Standing Stars go & the invariably well & truly in excess of 1 Mile distances that come with them, I've long thought it is pretty bloody ridiculous that Australian & NZ Breeders patronise US/CAN shuttle & imported sires that are essentially high speed stayers, bred to rip out of a mobile start & go as hard as they can all the way over 1 Mile, then ask the resulting progeny to start from a stand and race over distances up to a Mile & 7/8th's.

Further to that I've never really understood why Standardbred Breeders in the Southern Hemipshere try to breed a Jack Of All Trades type of horse.

I don't know why we don't deliniate the breed somewhat, perhaps not to the extent that the TB's do...from Golden Slipper type to Melbourne Cup type...but at the very least something along those lines?.

There are definitely families within the Breed that go fast & early & don't tend to improve much beyond what they do at 2 & 3 and there are others that are maybe not so good at producing juveniles but that race on and on as aged horses.

At the very least I don't know why we do not acknowledge and even celebrate those varying genetic aspects ala the way the TB's do, rather than maintaining this ridiculous mindest that our horses have to be all things to all people, thinking that a given horse or sire came up short if it or ots progeny did not race on beyond 3yrs or that it or ots progeny came up short because it/they didn't race as a juvenile and instead came on as older horses.

[mango]

[QUOTE=eliteblood;23270]An outstanding field has come together for the standing start Avon City Ford Cup at Addington this Friday night.
It will be Sushi Sushi's first attempt at a standing start as he aims up on the New Zealand Cup in early November.
Also in the race are Auckland Reactor, Terror To Love, Gold Ace, Highview Tommy, Franco Emirate, Mah Sish and Sleepy Trip.[/QUOT

Sushi Sushi scratched

[eliteblood]

Sushi scratched again !
That's disappointing Mango.

[teecee]

Sushi scratched again !
That's disappointing Mango.
Minor blood disorder. Taking no chances but he is not the only one in the stable with the same problem.

[teecee]

http://www.hrnz.co.nz/images/Pdfs/Circulars/Circular1222.pdf

Brad what you say is 100%.
I have been unable to take out and paste the particular remit from the list and post it here but the conference remits link I have posted makes interesting reading.the specific remit discussed here is remit 17. The background info for each if you find spare time for reading shows how many remits went through for the purpose of alligning our rules with yours. I have yet to see your rules being alligned to ours!!!

Your comment about Aussies buying our horses is probably true also. I fear that may soon come to an end even though our industry is in the doldrums. From a time not too many years ago when we could afford milion dollar NZ Cups etc to stakes struggling to make 10k.
I have just returned to Nevele R night foaling shift after 2yrs sabbatical. In the 5 years I previously did this we averaged 400 foals born on farm. This year we have a roster of 149 mares to foal. Although it is still early days and this figure may increase it already includes major regular clients like franco and bromac.
If this is to continue breeders not breeding then our racing industry will dry up and your import market will follow.
Another interesting point...NZ harness racing last season failed to meet contract with our TAB and thus your TABs under the international race supply contract. We were unable to program the required number of races. Although weather conditions did play a part in this poor nominations lead to dropped races and abandoned meetings were a significant factor.

[DBL]

Standing start races as far as I am concerned are a thing of the past and have no place in modern harness racing.
I will not bet on any SS pacers races and not any Trotters events either SS or mobile.

[barney]

I must admit agree with David re stands and trotters, in younger days loved the trotter and no bigger thrill than to sit behind one that can really trot.Was told very early on the last thing you do when working a horse is to make it stand and go away from a stand.This was in the days before mobiles were the everyday thing.
Nowdays refuse to bet on a stand or Trotters just too hard to predict.

[teecee]

[QUOTE=barney;23442]I must admit agree with David re stands and trotters, in younger days loved the trotter and no bigger thrill than to sit behind one that can really trot.Was told very early on the last thing you do when working a horse is to make it stand and go away from a stand.This was in the days before mobiles were the everyday thing.
Why do you think that is or what reason were you given for such thinking. Where I come from it is part of the breaking in process teaching the horse to stand and relax prior to the race, being able to move off on the right leg etc. It seems that maybe it's just too hard to teach a horse to stand, relax and then move away at speed eh??.

[Greg Hando]

I'm with you teecee every horse should be made stand and walk, pace or trot away from the stand i thought it was called education. A lot of horse's you see now will not stand at all without being held even for gear adjustment's.

[Danno]

Some people are gunna yawn when they read this but......if we had a higher percentage standing starts than we do now, say 50% of races,the horses, trainers, drivers and administrators would be more adept at the method and punters would be better informed about the prospects of the horses, trainers and drivers competing, because they'd have form would they not?

The position we are in currently is the stand is being bagged by all and sundry because we do not run them often enough.

One thing that has annoyed me for years is we, the trotting mob, keep changing things that don't need changing...

have the dogs changed they're starting procedures? NO!
have they changed anything to stop the inevitable wipe out at the first corner? NO!

Have the gallopers changed their ridiculous starting stalls that prevent a a fair start for some? NO!
Have they changed the distance and handicapping methods of they're big races? NO!

Sure, times change and we need to adapt to them, but the answer was never in all mobile racing and making the majority of our big races FFA's and I think any reasonably open minded person could see that.

Our game is still going down the funnel quicker than our market competitors! Time to wake up and look at ourselves from an outsiders perspective!

Cheers,
Dan

[barney]

I think going back in time more standing starts than mobiles so was imperative that a horse could step away or unless they were real good wouldnt go on.Now most races are mobiles a lot of horses wouldnt have a standing start race in there career.
Someone on insiderail mentioned how good Chris Alford is in getting horses away from the stand guess has been around horses all his life and would have had it drummed into him patience is probably the key in educating them.

[2minuteman]

I think going back in time more standing starts than mobiles so was imperative that a horse could step away or unless they were real good wouldnt go on.Now most races are mobiles a lot of horses wouldnt have a standing start race in there career.
Someone on insiderail mentioned how good Chris Alford is in getting horses away from the stand guess has been around horses all his life and would have had it drummed into him patience is probably the key in educating them.
Wot 'e said.

[Messenger]

Interesting to see combined 2yo and 3yo trots from the stand eg Cranbourne tomorrow night
The concept could create some interest in the pacers too if Stands still existed, mind you some of the flying 2yo's would not need 30m start

I have resurrected this thread, instead of making a new one, as it is an interesting read nearly 8yrs on