More Positives

[clumsy]

Trainers Mr John Lew & Mr Bernie Kelly – Positive Swabs
Trainer Mr John Lew – Positive Swab
Harness Racing NSW will inquire into a report received from the Australian Racing Forensic Laboratory (ARFL) that capsaicin has been detected in the post race urine sample taken from FRANKELPICK after it raced and won Race 7, the Total Fire Solutions Pace (2,030 metres) at Dubbo on 3 November 2012.
This finding has been confirmed by the Racing Analytical Services Limited (RASL) in Melbourne.
The inquiry will be conducted on Tuesday 29 January 2013 at 3.30pm at the Stewards Room, Bathurst Racecourse.
Under the provisions of AHRR 183A, FRANKELPICK will not be permitted to be nominated or compete in any race until the conclusion of the inquiry or as otherwise directed by the Stewards.

Trainer Bernie Kelly - Positive Swab
Harness Racing NSW will inquire into a report received from the Australian Racing Forensic Laboratory (ARFL) that dexamethasone has been detected in the post race urine sample taken from MISTER BUBBLES after it raced and won Race 6, the Errol Stocton Family Griffith Cup(2,150 metres) at Griffith on 18 November 2012.
This finding has been confirmed by the Racing Analytical Services Limited (RASL) in Melbourne.
The inquiry will be conducted on Wednesday 6 February 2013 at 4pm at the Stewards Room, Wagga Racecourse.
View as PDF

[Greg Hando]

What is capsaicin and what is it used for ? And also is dexamethasone a steroid or similar ?

[clumsy]

What is capsaicin and what is it used for ? And also is dexamethasone a steroid or similar ?

Dexamethasone is a steroid, I use it to treat some of the side effects of cancer. You also take it before and a couple of days after chemotherapy.

[Triple V]

G'day Greg,


What is capsaicin and what is it used for ?

[VVV] An injection or topical application of it can essentially/for want of a better description 'overwhelm localised area nerve receptors' and so by default it has a relatively short acting analgesic/pain killing effect. If a recently treated horse goes on to smell like a Taco or a Burrito or not is yet to be proven. :p


And also is dexamethasone a steroid or similar ?

[VVV] It's just a cortico-steroidal anti-inflamatory as opposed to a non-steroidal anti-inflamatory (Bute etc)



VVV

[Greg Hando]

Thank you Jamie.

[clumsy]

Congratulations to the HRNSW stewards! The more positives that are found then the easier it is going to be for those honest trainers still left in the game to make a living from the sport.

[eliteblood]

Congratulations to the HRNSW stewards! The more positives that are found then the easier it is going to be for those honest trainers still left in the game to make a living from the sport.

Another one announced today. This time David Thorn from retesting of a frozen sample.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20033

[barney]

The latest may worry some people as they must have frozen samples and will be able to test for other drugs etc as time goes on.

[clumsy]

Another one announced today. This time David Thorn from restesting of a frozen sample.
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20033

It did not stop there, Jarrod Alchin and Michael Carroll were both charged with using the same drug

[Triple V]

All of a sudden everyone's going for a row for capsaicin eh?
Short memories some have. Remember the shitfight HRNZ kicked off when they sent all those samples to HK and they all started coming back positive for Arsenic?

Sing along now...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjSWZQNXLU

[eliteblood]

All of a sudden everyone's going for a row for capsaicin eh?
Short memories some have. Remember the shitfight HRNZ kicked off when they sent all those samples to HK and they all started coming back positive for Arsenic?

Sing along now...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAjSWZQNXLU

So what are you suggesting Jaimie ?

[Triple V]

In a verging on religious zeal to bring those it believes to be wrongdoers to justice and backed by a mob who tend to have even less of an understanding of the subject at hand than our intrepid Industry leaders and protectors periodically display, I am concerned the Regulatory aircraft has overshot the runway & is in serious danger of ending up nose first in Botany Bay. HRNZ found that out in spades and the only thing missing in their full reverse was the beeping sound made by large vehicles. I wonder how long before Trainers start to get positives for Blue Spray or Stockholm Tar? If you weigh more than a Duck perhaps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

[mightymo]

Found this on the net. Even says it wont swab positive!

http://www.horsewell.co.nz/products/capsaicin.pdf

[mightymo]

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8603929

[mightymo]

and David Farrugia. That makes 5 . Sounds like this has been widely used. There could be 10's of positives...

[trish]

In a verging on religious zeal to bring those it believes to be wrongdoers to justice and backed by a mob who tend to have even less of an understanding of the subject at hand than our intrepid Industry leaders and protectors periodically display, I am concerned the Regulatory aircraft has overshot the runway & is in serious danger of ending up nose first in Botany Bay. HRNZ found that out in spades and the only thing missing in their full reverse was the beeping sound made by large vehicles. I wonder how long before Trainers start to get positives for Blue Spray or Stockholm Tar? If you weigh more than a Duck perhaps? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g


Hi Jaimie its Mark.
You surprised me Jaimie, I thought you would suggest they all get 12 mths for EVERY offence.

Capsaicin is a VERY effective pain killer .
Lack of pain increases stamina & thus gives an unfair advantage . Much like bi carb .
The grape vine tells me this is used in a drench, so if thats true, and its very strong, then that is an offence in itself .
The same vine tells me that they are being supplied by a disqualified person . So thats another offence .
They really are scum bags!

So what part of BANNED substance don't you get Jaimie?

Capsaicin is a banned substance in equestrian sports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrianism) because of its hypersensitizing and pain relieving properties. At the show jumping events of the 2008 Summer Olympics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics), four horses tested positive for the substance, which resulted in disqualification.[45 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#cite_note-45)

Capsaicin is also the key ingredient in the experimental drug Adlea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_and_development_of_TRPV1_antagonists#Cur rent_status), which is in Phase 2 trials as a long-acting analgesic to treat post-surgical and osteoarthritis pain for weeks to months after a single injection to the site of pain. Now thats amazing !!

[teecee]

Some interesting points made. Some need clarification.
Jaimie... the issues in NZ whereby the RIU chose not to charge persons with drug related offences is far from a closed door nor a backdown by the authorities. It remains the intention of the RIU to seek the disqualification of the horses involved. This saga is ongoing.

The issue of the drug not swabbing. In NZ and almost certainly elsewhere as we have mutual arrangements globally on this issue The drug CAPAISIN has a withholding period of 2 days (24 hours). It is considered to be a Class 1 category drug with its "nerve numbing" properties. This means it has the capability of completely numbing pain whilst inflammation and trauma remain. The use of this drug may well be as much an animal welfare issue as an agent to affect speed, stamina, etc etc...The basis of the prohibited substance rules.

Harvey, your posted article is very interesting for IMO and others in the industry I have spoken to it is really the basic cause of any number of these positive samples. there is a plethora of so called therapeutic and herbal remedies on the open market now and for sale over the counter / mail order. Their marketing says everything and anything for a sale..the most popular is of course non swabbable. Very few of them say what is really inside and even fewer understand their ingredients' pharmacological properties. From personal experience trainers are clearly targeted in the marketing of these products. I can proudly say that I have never purchased one single such product.
Add to this scenario a trainer who has a horse displaying pain, inflammation or similar.
the issue is "not bad enough to get the vet and they cost too much" so what other opportunities exist. As above there are plenty of products on the market. Harmless, herbal remedies non swabbable. We've all heard about the wonderful healing properties of herbal remedies. They get rammed down our throats daily in the infomercial markets.
IMO trainers are seeking out these remedies more and more. Most trainers don't have either the time to research nor the capability to adequately investigate what they are really putting in or on their horse to make it feel better. The only real outlet for that info in mostly an understandable way is their vet. But not involving the vet is why they have sought such a remedy in the first place.
I remember a time shortly after getting my trainer's licence making a trip to HRNZ HQ..(fortunately it was in the same city as I) to enquire about the use of certain Herbal remedies and whether the ingredients were on the prohibited substance list. The stipe I spoke to said that I should talk to my vet. The list was the domain of the Equine Veterinary Assn (EVA). For some years the EVA has held the list very close to their heart for fear of compromising their members. After the Arsenic saga of which Jaimie and I have alluded above thus compromising the EVA members in Auckland/ Waikato region the EV have released the withholding times and dosages of drugs on the prohibited substances list thus placing the onus of responsibility much more clearly than previously on trainers. That's not to say trainers always had the full 100% responsibility under the absolute liabaility provisions in the rules.

So in short IMO trainers are going to continue to be caught out with routine and more retro testing of samples finding ever smaller traces of prohibited substances emanating for the ignorant administration of herbal based supplements where the true capabilities of the true ingredients are unknown to the trainer through a lack of research / asking or not falsely disclosed by manufacturers / marketing of these products. Batches of positive swabs together of one particular product indicates to me what I have always believed from my knowledge of the testing process...Retro testing of batches of samples for specific drugs...Expect more such events IMO

[Mighty Atom]

The latest may worry some people as they must have frozen samples and will be able to test for other drugs etc as time goes on.

Testing frozen samples is the best way to keep racing clean providing all samples are analysed and not randomly tested.

[aussiebreno]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/17/article-2280215-17A54D92000005DC-138_634x788.jpg

[aussiebreno]

The way I see it is trainers think they have found something that is non-swabbable and been going for their life. I will wait for the hearings to pass judgement as you never know what might have happened.
At the end of the day it's a banned substance (whether you think it should be banned or not) and using it is cheating and getting an unfair advantage on rivals.

[eliteblood]

http://wwos.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8603929

Harvey,
The last sentence in this article is of particular interest

"He (Murrihy) said there were also anecdotal reports of capsaicin arising from the administration of non-proprietary drenches that have been touted for pre-race use in horses."

[Triple V]

really. That's terrible to think that hrnsw may have got it wrong and, due to an administration error, innocent trainers are coming up with positives to capsicain and are being suspended for the use of a performance enhancing drug.
Or could it be that it is you who has spun off the runway and that the trainers are in fact the ones who have made administration errors, ie. Administering a drug that they thought would go undetected in an attempt to gain an unfair advantage over the ever diminishing group of honest people left in the sport.
[vvv] depends on your point of view i guess. I think it's a symptom of a bigger problem, one that could be addressed and should be addressed and would be largely if not completely solved if the motivation were there to do so.
if we had a list of therapeutics in place and thresholds for same then we wouldn't be having this debate...but we don't and we should and whatsmore we all know we should, even most if not all of the stewards will agree with that...it would make their job 10x easier for starters.

i think you should be praising reid sanders and hrnsw for their efforts to bring things back to a level playing field rather than trying to discredit everything they do.
[vvv] i am not discrediting everything they do trevor...however what has boiled over here is my frustration at their continued innaction insofar as the establishment of thresholds for a therapeutic substances list.
imo if reid & the rest of the regulatory crew there at hrnsw really want to do something lasting and of benefit, something which will see the industry get out of the dark ages in his area and progress then they need to find deep within themselves the motivation required to drag the issue of the establishment of a therapeutic thresholds out of the too hard basket...the place where successive administrations both state & national have left it lay.
they then need to work on it & keep working on it until such time as it is ready to be instituted. I would dearly love to see nsw take the national lead in this area, we should get on the front foot & do something about it. i'd be there to cheer it in from the rooftops.

with regard to the vast majority of positives recorded there's no question they are therapeutic overages in nature.
while under the current state of play that does not serve as a defence, the fact we currently do not have a therapeutic thresholds list in place effectively forces many a trainer's hand insofar as them seeking to maintain their stock in good racing order.
these are performance horses being asked to tough, fast miles week in week out and they need to be viewed as such they need to be able to be treated accordingly. Week to week, month to month, year in year out economics when combined with the basic animal welfare issues will otherwise ultimately prove to be insurmountable unless the industry seeks out & finds a better way.
a classic example is eiph.
i would hazzard a guess and say that people in the industry largely do not realise that it is the single biggest animal welfare issue horse racing faces...however because it for obvious reasons largely hidden then regulatory on a state and national basis have never felt the need to address it. Perversely, i was recently told that internationally the very substance that geoff small got hung for, amicar, is fast firming as the best practice choice above and beyond lasix. How slowly the wheels turn eh?
instead of getting ahead of the wave ala the whip rule changes (which were excellent & welcome btw) must we instead wait until such time as some batik sarong wearing, sandle clad, tofu eating peta subscribing tree hugger gets their head around the implications of it & all of a sudden our hand is being publicly forced. Presto...there'll be all sorts of moves made to investigate the use of/allowable thresholds for anti-bleeder meds & so on. Masters of our own destiny, be.

a further to the above aspect and at the very least as equally important is that rules covering this area as written effectively work in direct opposition to that which the harness racing industry so desperately needs to offer up as a product in order to sruvive...genuine, reliable handicappable form for the punters to bet on.



vvv

[Triple V]

G'day Trevor,
Perhaps I didn't make what I am getting at clear enough. When I stated..."if we had a list of therapeutics in place and thresholds for same then we wouldn't be having this debate..." ...I meant that if we in fact had such a list in place then our Trainers would have little or no need to be thinking 'outside the square'/outside of the rules to this degree. They would aleady have on hand a list of acknowledged/accepted/widely used Veterinary therapeutics and with it the accompanying thresholds for same, thus removing the fear that...for example...they will get a Bute positive some 96hrs+ post administration despite the fact it stops having any appreciably pain killing effect 12hrs post administration. For years and years we've had all manner of cure-alls offered up...herbs, magnets, magic crystals, voodoo dolls, accupuncture, God only knows...you name it, someone's tried it.
Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to cut to the chase, to chop through all the bollocks and acknowledge then work with the one inescapable truth?
These are Performance horses and like it or not they need to be medicated/treated...call it what you will....in order to give of and maintain their best form.
Creating a situation where horses are racing in peak physical health, pain free & giving of and maintaining their best form posssible is a win/win/win. The Owner, The Trainer, The Punter...everyone benefits. Am I the only one who can see this? I strongly suspect that is not the case.

[trish]

Hi Jaimie , Mark again . We do have a list of acceptable therapeutic substances for any good horseman to work with . Its anything thats not on the banned substance list . Bloody easy . Problem is that most of these guys and gals don't know how to trian effectively without them . There are performance horses and they don't need drugs to keep them on the track , unless you want an unfair advantage . These people DON'T use them to as therapeutics , they use them to win . Like ive said a thousand times , if a horse really needs them then he's too sick to race .
Looks like the grape vine was correct about the drenching .

[teecee]

The topic of this thread relates to a continuing spate of positive threads. It is not about Jaimie Varcoe..aka Triple V. Jaimie has a point of view on the topic and is free to offer his viewpoint as he does. Other posters are entitled to debate his viewpoint in the affirmative (agreed) or opposed stance but their views should be related to the issue rather than the person. If you have offered up your opinion and have more to offer then again feel free. Jaimies' opinion is just that...his opinion. If you support his view on the ISSUE / TOPIC feel free to say so. If not okay put your alternative view or say why you think someone else's (e.g. Jaimie's view of the ISSUE is wrong or needs to be modified but posts that offer no comment on the issue but instead comment on the person will be deleted from the thread. This is not restricted to this thread but all threads.
Please remember when posting.. You are offering comment on ISSUES not PERSONALITIES nor PEOPLE.

[clumsy]

The topic of this thread relates to a continuing spate of positive threads. It is not about Jaimie Varcoe..aka Triple V. Jaimie has a point of view on the topic and is free to offer his viewpoint as he does. Other posters are entitled to debate his viewpoint in the affirmative (agreed) or opposed stance but their views should be related to the issue rather than the person. If you have offered up your opinion and have more to offer then again feel free. Jaimies' opinion is just that...his opinion. If you support his view on the ISSUE / TOPIC feel free to say so. If not okay put your alternative view or say why you think someone else's (e.g. Jaimie's view of the ISSUE is wrong or needs to be modified but posts that offer no comment on the issue but instead comment on the person will be deleted from the thread. This is not restricted to this thread but all threads.
Please remember when posting.. You are offering comment on ISSUES not PERSONALITIES nor PEOPLE.

Thanks teecee I now know why all my threads that mention a particular name have been deleated. I must apologise for the misuse of the thread.

[barney]

My belief is if Any Trainer not matter who how big or small tests positive for a banned substance no matter how minute the reading they should be banned for a period .If then they are CAUGHT again then a lifetime ban is warranted and would serve as a lesson for all.In gallops there are repeat offenders get 6 months transfer horses to a rellie then come back and do the same again.

[clumsy]

My belief is if Any Trainer not matter who how big or small tests positive for a banned substance no matter how minute the reading they should be banned for a period .If then they are CAUGHT again then a lifetime ban is warranted and would serve as a lesson for all.In gallops there are repeat offenders get 6 months transfer horses to a rellie then come back and do the same again.

Barney
This is also my opinion of anyone who tests positive and the charge is proven.

[barney]

Barney
This is also my opinion of anyone who tests positive and the charge is proven.

Im afraid it is not the opinion of all on here as has been argued that beacuse it was only a trace shouldnt have been suspended,I can rember in another topic someone arguerd that because it was a leading trainer was ok to cheat

[Toni]

I highly doubt anyone would have said if you are a leading trainer, then it is ok to cheat. That would have been taken out of context or not read in the manner it was intended. That is a lot of whats wrong with online forums today - people read what they want to read in order to create drama and an argument.

[barney]

I highly doubt anyone would have said if you are a leading trainer, then it is ok to cheat. That would have been taken out of context or not read in the manner it was intended. That is a lot of whats wrong with online forums today - people read what they want to read in order to create drama and an argument.
Toni can assure you it was said on here cant be bothered or have the time to go back and find the quote

[Triple V]

A few questions...

-Can they/do they quantify the actual amount of Capsaicin detected?

-If not, then how can it be conclusively proven that it did not come as a result of some anti-Crib preparation?...so many of which clearly contain Capsaicin.

This aspect has recently been mentioned on another Harness Racing Forum I'm part of and for the sake of the debate, I thought it worth repeating here.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20200

[Triple V]

A few questions...

-Can they/do they quantify the actual amount of Capsaicin detected?

-If not, then how can it be conclusively proven that it did not come as a result of some anti-Crib preparation?...so many of which clearly contain Capsaicin.

This aspect has recently been mentioned on another Harness Racing Forum I'm part of and for the sake of the debate, I thought it worth repeating here.


[VVV] Geeze, a week has passed and nothing. You guys are losing your Mojo. Dot would have been all over that post like a Seagull on an errantly dropped hot chip. :p

[eliteblood]

What's become of Dot? There's been no word from her for a few weeks now.

[Triple V]

Alien Abduction?

[Danno]

A few questions...

-Can they/do they quantify the actual amount of Capsaicin detected?

-If not, then how can it be conclusively proven that it did not come as a result of some anti-Crib preparation?...so many of which clearly contain Capsaicin.

This aspect has recently been mentioned on another Harness Racing Forum I'm part of and for the sake of the debate, I thought it worth repeating here.

Geeze didn't see that earlier triple....now that you explain the real reason for all these capsiacin positives it makes sense doesn't it....."there are fairies at the bottom of the garden"

[clumsy]

Too much talk about it being used as a drench for a pain killer

[barney]

Was only wondering today why Nsw has had so many positives Wa a few but other states basicaly nil.Has to be a reason and wondering is it the increased prizemoney or just desperation to compete with leading stable.
Not wishing to cast a doubt on the McCarthys but must be frustrating to other trainers that hey seem to be so dominate.
Does this force others to break the rules to compete, what do you people think.

[broncobrad]

2 More :(

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=104277

[aussiebreno]

Is it time to open the makers mark?

[broncobrad]

Is it time to open the makers mark?

Is there ever a wrong time?

[Danno]

It will be interesting to see who becomes the new trainer(s) of these bloke's former charges.
I hope they are carefull with the anti cribbing treatment!

[Greg Hando]

I wish in these swab inquiries they would put the amounts of the drug detected just so people know the exact amounts found.

[broncobrad]

I wish in these swab inquiries they would put the amounts of the drug detected just so people know the exact amounts found.

If trainers kept a tonic book like old Harry Telford did back in the day, it would make everybodys job a little bit easier. Amazing reading. Some of the ingredients included (and I am quoting part of attached document) are arsenic, strychnine, belladonna, cocaine and caffeine. Phar Lap truly was a wonderful horse but just what was going around in his veins at any given time is a matter for conjecture only. You have to remember that some of these substances were in common use back in the 30's. Atleast Harry used to record how much of each ingredient to use.

http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/1373916/tonic-book-harry-telford-phar-lap-1930s

Heaven forbid,I have absolutely no intention of re-opening the debate of thresholds for another rehashing but in 2013 if some infringements can draw out exceedences such as TCO2, why on Earth cannot amounts of other illegal substances not be published. In any Emergency Department you will find an I-Stat machine that can within 5 minutes of testing blood give a detailed and fairly accurate reading of blood chemistry (although narrow and is used as a first point blood test and does require more formal testing). The stuff coming back from Hong Kong is tested with super sensitive equipment. Surely a smidgin of what is being isolated could be published. I think anyone who is charged with the latest 'drug of choice?' capsaicin, is entitled to know just how much of the substance has been detected in the horses system.

[Danno]

I think anyone who is charged with the latest 'drug of choice?' capsaicin, is entitled to know just how much of the substance has been detected in the horses system.

Brad, whilst I agree that it appears only right that levels be released, the information/scuttlebut around the traps is that all the people that have been busted for capsaicin were getting it in a pre-mix drench which was being sold by someone who is currently disqualified, so there is nothing to be gained from releasing the levels except to provide usefull information to the makers and distributers of the drench?

cheers,
Dan