Smoken Up---Hunter Cup

[p plater]

Can anyone tell me why Smoken Up is not in the betting for the Hunter Cup.
I thought he was nominated

[p plater]

The conditions of the race state that you have to start in a Standing Start race in the preceeding 12 months.

He, nor Im Themightyquinn have not and are therefore ineligible.

* Horses must be qualified to race from a Standing Start by Noon on Sunday 20 January 2013. * A horse must have contested and began safely in a minimum of one standing start race in the 12 months prior. * The winner of the following races will be exempt from ballot for this race - 2012 Kilmore Pacing Cup, 2012 New Zealand Cup and 2013 Shepparton Gold Cup. * This race is a leg of the Pacers Grand Circuit. * Acceptance Fee - $2, 000.
NO CONCESSION CLAIMS

Adam thanks for that but what an utter disgrace that the 2 top Grand Circuit performers and million $ earners last season, not to mention proven standing start horses at the top level can fall foul to such a race condition.
So much for seeing the Best race the Best.

[Maorisidol]

Adam thanks for that but what an utter disgrace that the 2 top Grand Circuit performers and million $ earners last season, not to mention proven standing start horses at the top level can fall foul to such a race condition.
So much for seeing the Best race the Best.

It's up to owners to qualify their horse for a standing start race, however both horses would more than likely cop a 30m handicap in the Hunter Cup so I guess this is why they didn't nominate, however Blackie and Elsu did it I believe from 30....?

[p plater]

It's up to owners to qualify their horse for a standing start race, however both horses would more than likely cop a 30m handicap in the Hunter Cup so I guess this is why they didn't nominate, however Blackie and Elsu did it I believe from 30....?

Ash, interesting comment that "Owners to qualify their horse".
Smoken Up does appear in the nominations and that raises a point for discussion; What handicap would they get. Is the handicapping based on recent results to even up the field or is their performances from years past the basis and as you say cop 30 mtrs, which would almost make it impossible based on recent results.

[broncobrad]

NZ horses certainly get the best opportunity to qualify under the standing start clause with so many SS programmed year round on all sorts of surfaces and conditions. In all fairness if Australian connections really had targeted the Hunter Cup they had 12 months to find just one suitable SS event, hardly a huge hurdle to overcome. And the clause of having atleast one SS in 12 months does to a small extent go towards the protection of punters pinning their faith on a horse stepping when tapes are released.

Will be lambasted for this but to me the Hunter Cup has been a traditional landmark for toughness and quality almost year in year out. This years edition is B+ grade. I would expect it to be ultra-competitive all the same.

[broncobrad]

Ten metre max handicap for Hunter Cup

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=103289

[Toohard]

NZ horses certainly get the best opportunity to qualify under the standing start clause with so many SS programmed year round on all sorts of surfaces and conditions. In all fairness if Australian connections really had targeted the Hunter Cup they had 12 months to find just one suitable SS event, hardly a huge hurdle to overcome. And the clause of having atleast one SS in 12 months does to a small extent go towards the protection of punters pinning their faith on a horse stepping when tapes are released.

Will be lambasted for this but to me the Hunter Cup has been a traditional landmark for toughness and quality almost year in year out. This years edition is B+ grade. I would expect it to be ultra-competitive all the same.

Would that condition have been published 12 months ago? They only publish races 3 months out from now?

Auckland Reactor and Our Blackbird both ODS but still eligible.

Using ITMQ as example only. Looked WA stands next 3 months and assuming typical of all throughout year. M0 or better. He cops 40m+ handicap in stand over there? So no point competing (I'm using as example only and not bagging him!!!!).

So has to run around in one anyway to be eligible for biggest handicap in Aust?

Like saying So You Think has to lump 70kg in a 2 mile race to be eligible for Melbourne Cup?

[p plater]

Would that condition have been published 12 months ago? They only publish races 3 months out from now?

Auckland Reactor and Our Blackbird both ODS but still eligible.

Using ITMQ as example only. Looked WA stands next 3 months and assuming typical of all throughout year. M0 or better. He cops 40m+ handicap in stand over there? So no point competing (I'm using as example only and not bagging him!!!!).

So has to run around in one anyway to be eligible for biggest handicap in Aust?

Like saying So You Think has to lump 70kg in a 2 mile race to be eligible for Melbourne Cup?

Only difference is Paul the thoroughbreds don't shoot themselves in the foot like the HRV has here. They want the best horses and the bigger turnover.

Lucky for us, they couldn't think of some stupid race rule to stuff up the Victoria Cup which was a great race to watch.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Only difference is Paul the thoroughbreds don't shoot themselves in the foot like the HRV has here. They want the best horses and the bigger turnover.

Lucky for us, they couldn't think of some stupid race rule to stuff up the Victoria Cup which was a great race to watch.
Bailey, the HRV should not have to spoon feed owners/trainers the conditions of a race. The onus is on the connections, in this instance.

[Toohard]

Totally right Leigh. We don't want the best horses running around in the best race.

Next year Albury, Port Pirie, anywhere close to Vic border, putting on a 800m, stand. Don't have to win it, just bowl around and be eligible for Hunter Cup.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Totally right Leigh. We don't want the best horses running around in the best race.

Next year Albury, Port Pirie, anywhere close to Vic border, putting on a 800m, stand. Don't have to win it, just bowl around and be eligible for Hunter Cup.

I notice there were at least 18 other horses who's connections bothered to read the conditions Paul. Or are there a couple of owners/trainers who are above that?

[p plater]

Totally right Leigh. We don't want the best horses running around in the best race.

Next year Albury, Port Pirie, anywhere close to Vic border, putting on a 800m, stand. Don't have to win it, just bowl around and be eligible for Hunter Cup.

Paul you forgot to mention stand manners, ODS is fine

[Toohard]

I notice there were at least 18 other horses who's connections bothered to read the conditions Paul. Or are there a couple of owners/trainers who are above that?

Not disputing that Leigh. Just all seems a little absurd. Our 'showcase' with no room for the best horses?

[p plater]

In Aust, Caribbean Blaster had 1 standing start in Sept 12 being the Gammalite, starting off 10m......heres the interesting part, in the same race off 30m were Melpark Major and Jaccka Clive

What handicap would ITMQ or SU have got. I'm sure at that stage these horses were not preparing for the Hunter Cup qualifying clause.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Not disputing that Leigh. Just all seems a little absurd. Our 'showcase' with no room for the best horses?
I'm almost certain there are owners who are wetting themselves, Australias 2 best horses are not running Paul!

[stevesox]

these trainers know the rules and regulations. I believe the main reason for smoken up and I'm the mighty quinn not being in the hunter cup is because they'll be off 20 or 30m and they have no chance of winning. They are no Blacks of fake!!!!!

[Toohard]

I'm almost certain there are owners who are wetting themselves, Australias 2 best horses are not running Paul!

Yeh ya right. The 2 best should be running but they ain't. Going to have lots of interstate visitors with the sale on the day after and just a shame I reckon. That's a really stupid rule (not even a rule!!). We've been (read my son has been) talking him (Smoken Up) up to all and sundry and had a few 'unattached' people said they'd come along for a look to see what all the fuss was about. Not going to happen now. Industry's loss.

[Maorisidol]

At this level of horse I reckon unless they have NOT run in a standing start then the qualifying race could apply, however if a horse has stepped away in a SS race and not galloped, even if it was a year ago, they should be eligible.
Additionally i believe a maximum handicap of maybe 15m should apply to any horse from now on.
The Hunter Cup should have the very best from Oz/NZ in it and OBVIOUSLY these two factors are restricting a great race from attracting the best.
Would be a shame to see this great race reduce its quality over the next few years...

[p plater]

these trainers know the rules and regulations. I believe the main reason for smoken up and I'm the mighty quinn not being in the hunter cup is because they'll be off 20 or 30m and they have no chance of winning. They are no Blacks of fake!!!!!

There is 19 horses nominated for the Hunter Cup.......2 are not eligible Smoken Up and Our Better dream (no handicaps issued)
That leaves 17 .......but 18 handicaps issued.......who does not appear in the noms but has a handicap listing on the official HRV media release ????????

[clumsy]

Hunter Cup field falling away with the scratchings of Sushi Sushi and Melpark Major.

[p plater]

It was Melpark Major who did not appear in the noms when handicaps announced

[littlelenny]

I dont think enough is done to try and attract the top liners to race in the Hunter Cup. Quinny and Smoken Up are two of the major drawcards to a succesful carnival and they are the Grand Circuit Champs for the previous two seasons, and yet neither will be there to contest this major Grand Circuit event. Thats poor marketing in my opinion.

I would like to know where they expected them to get a start in a SS without getting 30,40 or even 50 metres. The NZ Cup was the only real chance they had and unfortunately Quinny had the setback which interupted his campaign and Smoken Up didnt go over this year. Yes Smoken Up could of went in the Pure Steel but then he would have to sacrifice a start in the Ballarat Cup which is a Group 1 event.

In my opinion have more suitable races put into the calender or change the rules, after all the Grand Circuit has now cut back on its races. Just look at the Vic Cup what a race thats the quality field you should be attracting.

It has become a race for the up and coming stars the established stars even if they managed a SS they seem to be handicapped out of it with 20 and 30 metres. 10 metre max is enough. I bet quinny would of been here if 10 metres was the max.

JUST MY OPINION

[Triple V]

I only ever attened one Hunter Cup. It was the night at MV where Saab skipped away, made a right hand turn & absolutely poleaxed Christian Cullen. I was never a big fan of Standing Starts but that night turned me off them forever.

[Toohard]

Hunter Cup field falling away with the scratchings of Sushi Sushi and Melpark Major.

So Sushi out of ID too? Will need to go to NZ heat if not in Hunter Cup? Assume injured? Thats a bugger if so. Last 2 runs huge and just gettimg back to his best.

[Greg Hando]

Isn't Fred Taiba training Sushi now ?

[teecee]

Isn't Fred Taiba training Sushi now ?
Yes that is true but he was trained in NZ when noms for the ID closed so he needs to go to the NZ heat unless he contests the Hunter Cup from where he MAY contest the supplementary NSW heat.

[Danno]

I only ever attened one Hunter Cup. It was the night at MV where Saab skipped away, made a right hand turn & absolutely poleaxed Christian Cullen. I was never a big fan of Standing Starts but that night turned me off them forever.

Good to see you don't hold a grudge for long Jamie!:D

[clumsy]

Sushi has a cold

[HaroldParker]

So Four Starzzz Flash will get a start by default ? I suspect he was running for a spot in the Hunter Cup on Friday and should of been out at the 500m. I didn't have a bet at Ballarat on Friday but I did watch the replay of that race with a view to the Hunter Cup and if I had my way, on behalf of the punters who got stiffed at the shorts, I wouldn't put him in it. If you're not good enough to pull out of the 1-1 at the Odds On in a Pure Steel, you don't belong in the Hunter Cup.

& BTW, why weren't the stewards all over that one ? I think they got him for dropping anchor and if they didn't question him about what occurred a little later, those stewards should be at Centrelink tomorrow.

[Toohard]

Yes that is true but he was trained in NZ when noms for the ID closed so he needs to go to the NZ heat unless he contests the Hunter Cup from where he MAY contest the supplementary NSW heat.

Those conditions on the website must be incomplete or out of date Tony. He is eligible for NSW heat. In this case commonsense prevails.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=19818

[aussiebreno]

Those conditions on the website must be incomplete or out of date Tony. He is eligible for NSW heat. In this case commonsense prevails.

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=19818
I just read a HRNSW release (via facebook so no link sorry) that Sushi Sushi has been given a special exemption because it was their intention to start.

Now I'm all for Sushi starting to get the best possible field.

But for this situation to occur shows it's just another muck up for the new format they want to call the Interdom. Just give up on this idea please.

[Toohard]

I just read a HRNSW release (via facebook so no link sorry) that Sushi Sushi has been given a special exemption because it was their intention to start.

Now I'm all for Sushi starting to get the best possible field.

But for this situation to occur shows it's just another muck up for the new format they want to call the Interdom. Just give up on this idea please.

Common sense prevails. Great job HRNSW!!!

[Triple V]

I'll sencond that Paul. Common sense a winner. Nice work HRNSW.

[dizzy]

It maybe common sense but lets hope the "special exemption" is within the letter of the rules, which I freely confess I don't know in this case. Wouldn't want it to end up in court.

[Triple V]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

[Toohard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

:D:D

[teecee]

It maybe common sense but lets hope the "special exemption" is within the letter of the rules, which I freely confess I don't know in this case. Wouldn't want it to end up in court..
No matter how many times I read the series conditions I can find nothing concerning special exemptions. A wildcard entry is available determined by NSWHRC for a place in the final but the conditions relating to the heats are quite clear and no such exemption from the heats exists.
My previous comment is from an update from NSWHRC to HRNZ with regards to the eligibility of horses who have changed stables and states since nominations closed..specifically Sushi Sushi and those horses trained by Tim Butt now based in Victoria. the update memorandum states that these horses are...quote.
"eligible to compete in the NZ ht and possibly the NSW qualifying heat via the Hunter Cup...unquote...

My understanding of that statement is contest the NZ qualifier or contest the Hunter Cup for a chance to get into the NSW supplementary heat. From the series conditions this heat is held open for entries from Queensland, SA and Tas where no home heats are being held. That ht will then be filled by those horses who contest the Hunter Cup....If Sushi doesn't contest the Hunter Cup he is at the mercy of those above in the order of entry. By not contesting the Hunter Cup he is effectively at the bottom of the list. s I say I can find nothing to meet any exemption from the ht conditions but feel free to point me to it. None of the links I have seen posted here point me there either.

[p plater]

Tony you are correct as it stands but NSWHRC usually leaves a door open for themselves to change race conditions......happens all the time. Usually this gives them the chance to have the best compete in any race. Could be Wildcard or Directors invite etc. etc.

Can't wait to see the official special exemption notice as Brendan posted. Then they will use rankings to get him in.

Lucky that Sushi raced in NZ for a period or he may not have had a standing start in Vic and then there would be a problem.

[Toohard]

Tony you are correct as it stands but NSWHRC usually leaves a door open for themselves to change race conditions......happens all the time. Usually this gives them the chance to have the best compete in any race. Could be Wildcard or Directors invite etc. etc.

Can't wait to see the official special exemption notice as Brendan posted. Then they will use rankings to get him in.

Lucky that Sushi raced in NZ for a period or he may not have had a standing start in Vic and then there would be a problem.

Said the intention of supplementary heat was to save NZ, Qld, WA horses not having to travel home if wanted to run in Hunter Cup. Not the horses or owners or trainers fault it got a cold when they wanted to run in Hunter Cup. Whats their alternative? Put the horse in Hunter Cup crook? HRNSW have applied the rule as per its intention I reckon. No dotting i's or crossing t's. Great job them.

Interview about it here:

http://www.trotstv.com.au/?id=7687

HRNSW doing their bit to make sure the ID doesn't detract from the quality of the Hunter Cup field.

[p plater]

Sad to hear Sushi has injury.....horses of his grade and ability try so hard each start....a shame

[2minuteman]

Hunter winner,new ID fav?

[terror]

terror to love well stay fav with mah bein second fav now.