Shayne Cramp gets trainers license suspended for 6 months for a driving offence???

[little fish]

Cramp was only given till midnight to get everything organised for 30-odd horses - he was told this at 10.30pm when he was at Swan Hill which is 3 hours away from home (Mildura).

Animal welfare question - who is supposed to exercise/feed/drink the horses the following morning? Most of Australia is asleep at 10.30pm at night how the hell is a guy supposed to make all necessary arrangements when everyone is asleep.

In the general interests of owners and horses shouldn't the stewards maybe give the guy 24 hours to make arrangements?

And just wondering - didn't Glen Douglas pull Shayne Cramp out of a sulky not too long ago after a race and only got a 5k fine and 6 months driving suspension?

Lets be straight here - Glen Douglas hardly drives. He is first and foremost a trainer, THE trainer, suspending his driving license HA HA what a joke.

KEY POINT OF DIFFERENCE - Douglas charged with rule 231 which relates to harass/threaten etc. Cramp charged with rule 168 which is foul driving, putting people/horses safety in danger etc.

I suppose pulling a driver out of a sulky isn't a dangerous act? Driver had no chance of falling in the wrong manner and breaking his neck?

Thoughts??

[aussiebreno]

Cramp was only given till midnight to get everything organised for 30-odd horses - he was told this at 10.30pm when he was at Swan Hill which is 3 hours away from home (Mildura).

Animal welfare question - who is supposed to exercise/feed/drink the horses the following morning? Most of Australia is asleep at 10.30pm at night how the hell is a guy supposed to make all necessary arrangements when everyone is asleep.

In the general interests of owners and horses shouldn't the stewards maybe give the guy 24 hours to make arrangements?

And just wondering - didn't Glen Douglas pull Shayne Cramp out of a sulky not too long ago after a race and only got a 5k fine and 6 months driving suspension?

Lets be straight here - the bloke hardly drives. He is first and foremost a trainer, THE trainer, suspending his driving license HA HA what a joke.

KEY POINT OF DIFFERENCE - Douglas charged with rule 231 which relates to harass/threaten etc. Cramp charged with rule 168 which is foul driving, putting people/horses safety in danger etc.

I suppose pulling a driver out of a sulky isn't a dangerous act? Driver had no chance of falling in the wrong manner and breaking his neck?

Thoughts??Thats woeful if true.

At the time of Douglas drivers suspension I was on here whinging it didn't directly relate to race driving and should have been tougher. Now Cramps has a bit more to do with race driving and his suspension is tougher. Making Douglas' driving suspension look more and more like a joke!

[little fish]

The offence relates to this race:
http://media.harness.org.au/vic/MLC12021303.wmv
(for windows)

Incident happened as they crossed the finish line.

If Shayne Cramp had a brain fade and simply snapped then he deserves his drivers at least to be rubbed out - no arguments there.

However I believe Cramp has told stewards that he got the reins crossed and it was an accident. If you look at the replay it is hard to tell - certainly not conclusive enough evidence that you go straight to rubbing the guys out for 6 months and give him 90 minutes to make alternative arrangements for your horses.

I understand the stewards job and support them 100% in making it a cleaner more professional industry.

But there were 5 seperate witnesses to prove Douglas physically pulled Cramp out of his sulky - not just some grainy footage from sky that to be honest seems inconclusive.

Any other forces at play here that people can enlighten us about?

[little fish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20091

"Stewards tonight concluded their inquiry into an incident that occurred after the winning post after the running of race 7 the Chloe Pace at the Mildura Harness Racing meeting on Tuesday, 12 February 2013.
After considering further evidence tendered by drivers Shayne Cramp (Imtheguy), Nigel Milne (Maria Caterina), starter Doug Gretgrix, the official race replay and the Stewards’ own observations, driver Shayne Cramp was charged under AR 168(1) which reads: A person shall not before, during or after a race drive in a manner which in the opinion of the Stewards is careless, reckless, incompetent, intimidatory, improper, foul or likely to endanger persons or horses.
The particulars of the charge being that after passing the winning post at the finish of the race Mr Cramp directed his drive Imtheguy inwards into the line of Maria Caterina (Nigel Milne) resulting in that horse being severely checked. The driving was alleged to be foul or likely to endanger persons or horses.
Driver Cramp was found guilty as charged and after considering the matter of penalty he was disqualified for a period of six months. In determining penalty the Stewards took into account submissions of Mr Cramp and also the very serious nature of the charge."

[clumsy]

We cannot have this sort of behaviour being carried out by anyone without a strong penalty being given. It was Shayne Cramps second offence for a similar thing that might have counted against him this time

[little fish]

We cannot have this sort of behaviour being carried out by anyone without a strong penalty being given. It was Shayne Cramps second offence for a similar thing that might have counted against him this time
I don't think anyone could disagree with you there.

With that in mind can I ask what are your thoughts about the Douglas incident/penalty?

[teecee]

According to the stewards report you have posted Cramp has not had his trainer's licence suspended for a driving offence.
He has been disqualified. Disqualification carries much wider and stronger sanctions...e.g.... No driving, training, access to licenced premises such as stables, racecourses etc. Same sanctions as a breach of the prohibited substance rules.

Most trainers who face serious charges usually have prior knowledge of the likely penalty if convicted and are in a position to have the affairs of their business with respect to the horses etc in hand. The stock is usually able to be cared for etc by staff / family.
It is not his first offence under this rule and no doubt the stewards have taken this into account.

Douglas' penalty related to a driving offence for which he was penalised under a different rule and debated here at the time. Chalk and cheese maybe???

[Maorisidol]

We cannot have this sort of behaviour being carried out by anyone without a strong penalty being given. It was Shayne Cramps second offence for a similar thing that might have counted against him this time
Sorry but what a dogs act.
Thats racing Shane, Nigel had every right to post you as he did out there. Its not "give way to the king of Mildura" you know, reminds me of his mate in Perth who belted another driver after the line with his whip cos he wasnt happy about something, birds of a feather!
If that's his second similar offence the penalty was light.

[Triple V]

The default for these situations should always be 'old school'. The parties concerned agree to step out behind the stable block after the last & square up all accounts there or otherwise pick a paddock on the way home, stand toe to toe & swing away. Do it when there's nobody else around that can see it or that might get hurt, man or horse. Racing is already dangerous enough as it is without adding to it.

[silky smooth]

The offence relates to this race:
http://media.harness.org.au/vic/MLC12021303.wmv
(for windows)

Incident happened as they crossed the finish line.

If Shayne Cramp had a brain fade and simply snapped then he deserves his drivers at least to be rubbed out - no arguments there.

However I believe Cramp has told stewards that he got the reins crossed and it was an accident. If you look at the replay it is hard to tell - certainly not conclusive enough evidence that you go straight to rubbing the guys out for 6 months and give him 90 minutes to make alternative arrangements for your horses.

I understand the stewards job and support them 100% in making it a cleaner more professional industry.

But there were 5 seperate witnesses to prove Douglas physically pulled Cramp out of his sulky - not just some grainy footage from sky that to be honest seems inconclusive.

Any other forces at play here that people can enlighten us about?
Cramp was not given till midnight to sort his affairs out he has 48 hours to appeal or have horses sent elsewhere he was given his time straight after the last and correct me if I'm wrong that was not after 10 o'clock if I'm wrong I'm sorry

[Maorisidol]

Barry did you see the immediate left hand turn he did as soon as they crossed the line?
Have you ever seen that before by any other driver? So blatant.
If you owned the horse he purposely drove into would you be happy if ANY driver did that to you? I doubt it!
That was a dogs act Barry, 40 years i have been watching trots, havent seen everything in the game, but have seen a lot, but havent seen anyone do that, a great image for the game!, but Barry do you reckon that was ok?
I am not commenting on the Douglas/ Cramp scenario, only the left hand turn into the other horse, woof!

[silky smooth]

Just a couple of small questions if someone could please explain.
Was Maria Caterina injured in the incident?
Were the 5 so called separate witnesses from one camp?
Did the Douglas/Cramp incident happen in front of a steward?
please dont whinge about the two camps cause i dont care just after some facts
thanks SS

[teecee]

If you want factual info suggest you research what you're after.
You can start at www.hra.org.au/stewards (http://www.hra.org.au/stewards) wrap

[clumsy]

I don't think anyone could disagree with you there.

With that in mind can I ask what are your thoughts about the Douglas incident/penalty?

The Douglas penalty was a different charge and can't be compared with the latest Cramp incident.

[Toohard]

Just a couple of small questions if someone could please explain.
Was Maria Caterina injured in the incident?
Were the 5 so called separate witnesses from one camp?
Did the Douglas/Cramp incident happen in front of a steward?
please dont whinge about the two camps cause i dont care just after some facts
thanks SS

Gday Pete
I found this in original stewards report here http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=ML120213

Maria Caterina underwent a veterinary examination immediately after the race. Club veterinary surgeon Dr Neville Japp reported that Maria Caterina had abrasions on both hind legs and its right fore leg as well as skin deep wounds. Maria Caterina was stood down from racing due to its injuries for a period of 7 days on veterinary advice.

Can't help with other two though.

[little fish]

The Douglas penalty was a different charge and can't be compared with the latest Cramp incident.
Cmon mate I think that is splitting hairs. Yes it was a different charge but the incidents in my opinion are quite comparable. One person cracks the shits being posted 3 wide and yanks someone out of a cart after the race (could've broken person's neck, horse could've flipped out bolted got hurt etc), the other person cracks the shits being posted 3 wide and steers his horse into another horse after the race (same, could've injured person and horse).

Yet charges were very different. 1st person gets charged with harassment and threatening behaviour, and loses only their driving license for 6 months (bloke hardly drives though, training is his main role). Person 2 gets charged with foul driving and loses driving AND training license for 6 months.

Sound fair?

If person 1 was not charged with a driving offence then why lose driving license for 6 months?

If person 1 did get charged with a driving offence, would it have been rule 168 the same as person 2 was charged with?

Lots of head scratching here - I'm sure had person 1 copped a similar whack as person 2 the uproar would be far less intense

As it stands I know for fact that a lot of people are suggesting favouritism and that they are out to get person 2

That suggests lack of integrity, transparency, and possible corruption (??) - not that I am suggesting that mind you, I am sure stewards are acting appropriately and honestly - however given the perceived double standards that is what some people have suggested - just telling you what I have heard

Another issue - why didn't stewards wait until results of the stay application tomorrow before scratching Jamie's Boy and The Ragpickers Dream from Charlton on sunday? Doesn't seem fair on the owners does it?

[little fish]

Barry did you see the immediate left hand turn he did as soon as they crossed the line?
Have you ever seen that before by any other driver? So blatant.
If you owned the horse he purposely drove into would you be happy if ANY driver did that to you? I doubt it!
That was a dogs act Barry, 40 years i have been watching trots, havent seen everything in the game, but have seen a lot, but havent seen anyone do that, a great image for the game!, but Barry do you reckon that was ok?
I am not commenting on the Douglas/ Cramp scenario, only the left hand turn into the other horse, woof!
I'd be ropable if anyone did that to one of my horses! :)

I'm not trying to be a Cramp apologist - if he had a brain snap and did it intentionally it was very immature and stupid and he deserves a solid whack.

However in the context of my post above I think it is not that simple.

Lets keep in mind he has never had barely a bad word to anyone in his 13 years in the industry. His record is pretty clean. He is not like as gruff and abrasive as his old man. Shayne is honest and hard working and tries his best to get along with everyone and never has a bad word to say about anyone. If the kid had a brain snap do you really go and take away his entire living for 6 months? Drivers license sure, but trainers license too? Harsh very harsh in my opinion.

[aussiebreno]

And you think I'm in love with Quinny :p

Douglas charged and found guilty of a 'general' offence as defined by the rule book. Penalty wasn't general but was for driving. Cramps penalty type is correct (I reckon too severe but moot point) whereas Douglas penalty type was incorrect. I commented on that at the time of Douglas penalty. The penalty makers got that one wrong.

[little fish]

And you think I'm in love with Quinny :p

Douglas charged and found guilty of a 'general' offence as defined by the rule book. Penalty wasn't general but was for driving. Cramps penalty type is correct (I reckon too severe but moot point) whereas Douglas penalty type was incorrect. I commented on that at the time of Douglas penalty. The penalty makers got that one wrong.

This is exactly where I am coming from.

Maorisidol I have not made any ridiculous assertions that he should be let off or as you put it, "Just because u have the Defence " I'm a good bloke, but I just belted you! Sorry I had a brain snap", I'm not gonna let u off..."

That is clearly not what I or anyone else has said.

If he is a good bloke and had a brain snap I agree that is not a reason to be let off however it IS something to be taken into consideration when deciding an appropriate penalty. As in the legal system your priors and any relevent patterns of behaviour should always be taken into consideration. Cramp's record is pretty clean and he is generally very fair and well liked - can you provide evidence to suggest otherwise?

This is not a situation where a person has schemed and systematically rorted and cheated this is someone losing his cool in the heat of the moment. Still deserves a harsh penalty however as I've stated multiple times it needs to be in line with any set precedents.

[Maorisidol]

We cannot have this sort of behaviour being carried out by anyone without a strong penalty being given. It was Shayne Cramps second offence for a similar thing that might have counted against him this time

Barry this may have something to do with it...second offence?
To be honest i have no idea of his first "similar offence"
I wonder if Clumsy could let us know what he knows?...or anyone else?

[little fish]

Maorisidol I don't know of any relevent priors, as far as I know Shayne is pretty clean but I stand to be corrected if clumsy can prove otherwise?

For the record Maria Caterina raced this Tuesday just gone, she had a bit of skin off from the incident 2 weeks earlier.

On Tuesday there were 7 races, 4 horses were swabbed, you guessed it only the Cramp horses swabbed. The other 3 non-Cramp trained winners were not swabbed.

When Shayne Cramp came back from WA he worked damn hard networking to bring new owners to the stable and bring in better class horses from NZ, from the yearling sales, and also claims in town (eg Ragpickers Dream). They also invested heavily in a deep sand track and their UFO sulky.

The guy works as hard as anyone. Last week he drove down to Melton (6-7 hours drive), after the races he loaded his horses back on the float and drove all the way back to Mildura, then was up at 6am to work horses.

If anyone scratches their head wondering why the Cramp stable is firing they need only to look at these facts and realise they have got better horses that are fitter and are using better equipment.

Also helps that the horses they are racing against are the same old tired horses going around up there week after week, the type of horses that Cramp would sack.

[Toohard]

Maybe reason for difference in penalties is because a horse got injured the second time?

[teecee]

This matter is now under appeal

[clumsy]

Little Fish
You are quite right I have mistaken the fact that Cramp was involved but he did not receive any penalty,sorry.

[little fish]

Little Fish
You are quite right I have mistaken the fact that Cramp was involved but he did not receive any penalty,sorry.

Actually I think what you've done is you have clumsily outed yourself as someone who for whatever reason doesn't like shayne cramp.

[clumsy]

Actually I think what you've done is you have clumsily outed yourself as someone who for whatever reason doesn't like shayne cramp.
Little Fish
I do not know Shayne Cramp and I do have great respect for his training ability.This was a genuine mistake on my behalf. all Ican do I apologise.

[little fish]

Little Fish
I do not know Shayne Cramp and I do have great respect for his training ability.This was a genuine mistake on my behalf. all Ican do I apologise.

No worries clumsy.

Heard earlier the stay has been granted so he is back until the appeal hearing. Haven't set a date yet.

[Diablo]

My opinion is that Cramp deliberately turned his horse into Maria Caterina. At no point after the incident did Cramp turn his back to either offer an apology or see if all was ok with MC. Cramp simply didn't like having anyone stick it to him.

[Lenem]

After unfairly having my earlier post removed,I quote the following:

22 September 2010 Harness Media Release

RWWA Stewards today concluded an inquiry into the actions of Gary Hall Jnr (Spirit of Shard NZ) shortly after the finish of Race 4 the Centurion Claiming Pace (2536M) at Gloucester Park on Friday 17th September 2010.

At today’s resumption, further evidence was taken from Gary Hall Jnr and Nathan Turvey (Parasite NZ). In addition enhanced vision of the incident was viewed.

Mr Hall was found guilty to a charge of having driven in an improper manner issued under the provisions of Harness Rule 168(1) in that he attempted to strike Mr Turvey with the whip shortly after passing the Winning Post.

His driver’s licence was suspended for a period of 6 weeks from midnight 22nd September 2010.

In determining penalty Stewards took into consideration the seriousness of the offence, Mr Hall’s good record and his personal circumstances.

Stewards also inquired into the actions of Mr Turvey racing towards the front straight on the final occasion. Whilst they had some reservations regarding his actions they did not consider the evidence sufficient to proceed with the matter.

WILLIAM J DELANEY
Chief Steward - Harness


My point being that Hall & Cramp (best of mates) are undoubtedly talented but have a lot of maturing to do.

[Danno]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20324

[2minuteman]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20324
Richly deserved.

[Maorisidol]

Richly deserved.
Totally agree Ron, "foul" behaviour like this is not to be tolerated, hopefully a lesson learnt, its just not acceptable.

[broncobrad]

It would be helpful to we on the sidelines to be privy to the same DVD footage that has been digitally enhanced by the Vic Police and used by the Appeals Board in assessing the case and penalty but alas we are not. I would subscribe that the gentlemen involved are qualified and experienced enough to arrive at a decision that fits the crime. In any sporting arena there is always the danger that appeal decisions will be varied and in this case I believe they have got it right. He CAN continue training. The $5,000 fine increased to $10,000 is also appropriate. Big message to all drivers...you may well have a brain snap and you may well lose your head in the heat of the moment, but the moment you step out of the sulky you can expect to be facing the music BIG TIME. No other driver should be exposed to the risks from drivers who DELIBERATELY intend to cause physical harm to other drivers/horses. FULLSTOP. Hypothetically speaking, where could this whole incident have ended up if Maria Caterina had gone down, broken her neck, put Milne over the running rail and incurring severe injuries through a deliberate act, whether it be in the heat of the moment or not. It would be in the courts for years.

In the context of the race, Milne drove a great race, keeping his biggest danger posted and he did nothing wrong whatsoever and did not deserve to be on the brunt of a foul act.

Its a long way from a C2 at Mildura racing for a $3,400 winners cheque and the Golden Slipper of 1996, but even back then a $50,000 fine wasn't going to stop one G Hall from knocking over the field. I think a $10,000 fine may make Cramp think twice next time.

I see he is now considering further appeals through VCAT, so its not all over yet.

[Bandito]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=20324

Whatever happened with this? I was at Charlton a week or so ago and saw SC drive/train 2/2. Looked him up and was amazed at his phenomenal %'s. I see he trained 4/6 on a 7 race card at Mildura yesterday but did not drive any of them

[broncobrad]

This was handed down from VCAT on 1 August 2013

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=21303

[Bandito]

Thanks Brad. SC would have made the $10k in the last couple of weeks
Edit: Just had a look at that meeting - had horses in 7/8 races for 5 winners, 4 seconds & 4 thirds and yet he was still full of angry pills

[broncobrad]

There is no doubting his ability to train a horse.

[Bandito]

Mildura tomorrow Craig Rail selects SC to win 6 of the 8 with Nathan Jack his number one driver

[Pena]

Barry you must be kidding

I think he should have got 6 months.

I am sure he would not have shifted up the track if Nigel Milne on Maria Caterina was behind the leader.

[little fish]

Barry you must be kidding

I think he should have got 6 months.

I am sure he would not have shifted up the track if Nigel Milne on Maria Caterina was behind the leader.

Ha ha 6 months surely not me who is kidding

Your bias is too obvious

Show the race to someone who doesn't know the bitter history between all parties nor who trains any of the horses and I can say from experience - I did it twice with this very incident - and they will look at you puzzled like is there a grudge behind the scenes that I don't know about.

6 months jeez mate ha ha seldom a sillier/more vindictive thing said on here surely!

[Bandito]

Ha ha 6 months surely not me who is kidding

Your bias is too obvious

Show the race to someone who doesn't know the bitter history between all parties nor who trains any of the horses and I can say from experience - I did it twice with this very incident - and they will look at you puzzled like is there a grudge behind the scenes that I don't know about.

6 months jeez mate ha ha seldom a sillier/more vindictive thing said on here surely!

I hope the 2 parties you showed it to do NOT have car licences! I did not know the history (until you just posted there was) and I can assure you that it is not only those who train any of the horses that are horrified. Any follower of the game knows you do not want to be posted 3W and when you see it happen to a horse/driver and then see that horse/driver do a 90 degree turn into the horse that posted him as soon as they crossed the line - well jeez mate ha ha seldom a sillier defence has ever be said on here surely!
ps Showed it to the wife, who does not follow the game and she was astounded that SC had no thought for the welfare of even his own horse

[Triple V]

Haven't seen the race in question and I don't know the parties involved nor their apparent history.
One thing I don't understand though.
If two fellas get to disliking each other that much that something's ultimately got to give then why not just pick a time & place and both of them get out in the middle of a paddock somewhere well away from other drivers, horses & the viewing public and set about belting buggery out of each other out there? I'm sure very few people would ever have any problem with that.

[little fish]

Jeez so who was the moderator who deleted my post about Greg Cramp getting suspended for 4 weeks for his drive last friday week? Your actions have stuffed up this conversation.

Sorry Bandito/TripleV my reply to Pena was not about Shayne's suspension it was about the latest suspension given to Greg.

I am on record earlier in this discussion as saying if Shayne had a brain fade on Imtheguy then he probably deserved a hefty driving suspension but not the training suspension, which VCAT agreed with me on.

The 'history' I was referring to was between GC and the stewards up there. Not Milne/SC.

[teecee]

I did and I make no apology for it.
Posts on this forum will be moderated and deleted when they are in breach of the forum's rules. The post you refer to is IMO way beyond what is acceptable in this media. The fact that its deletion has in your opinion stuffed up the conversation is irrelevant as content of your post should not have appeared here.
We have been down this track before eh.


Jeez so who was the moderator who deleted my post about Greg Cramp getting suspended for 4 weeks for his drive last friday week? Your actions have stuffed up this conversation.

Sorry Bandito/TripleV my reply to Pena was not about Shayne's suspension it was about the latest suspension given to Greg.

I am on record earlier in this discussion as saying if Shayne had a brain fade on Imtheguy then he probably deserved a hefty driving suspension but not the training suspension, which VCAT agreed with me on.

The 'history' I was referring to was between GC and the stewards up there. Not Milne/SC.

[Bandito]

Why don't you try again little fish and dress it up in your Sunday School best language so that you do not offend my ears for the Lord knows this forum needs every post it can get of late. I have now looked at the race you were talking about and it certainly is interesting when a stable has first and second favourites. Two different stables and you would say you had seen it a hundred times at the Showgrounds - nothing to see BUT I guess the magnifying glasses come out when you have a bit of form on the board.

[Messenger]

Suspension is not hurting him. Wednesday night at Mildura: 12 starters in 7 of the races for 4 wins, 3 seconds and 1 third

[barney]

He sure is some sort of trainer one he had which won Wednesday had had 23 starts prior yet started odds on and won at its first start for stable.Had never won prior to this

[Danno]

He sure is some sort of trainer one he had which won Wednesday had had 23 starts prior yet started odds on and won at its first start for stable.Had never won prior to this

Probably the fact it was having it's first start at Mildura that made the difference hey Brian?:D

[Messenger]

He sure is some sort of trainer one he had which won Wednesday had had 23 starts prior yet started odds on and won at its first start for stable.Had never won prior to this
To be fair on that one Brian, it was first up for 4.5 months (a lot can happen in that time), it was a C0, it had shown something in its last campaign - including running a similar time when 3rd over a short trip and all he had to beat ie 2nd fav - was a stablemate. I am all ears for a good rumour but this win seems fair enough

[Messenger]

Yeah, I am a bit obsessed with the Cramp stable. Tonight Craig Rail's analysis selects the stable to win every race bar one (selected for 2nd)

[Messenger]

Well Mr C won S I X out of 8!! Every race in which he had a short Fav: $2, $1.50, $1.40, $1.30, $1.30, $1.30

[gutwagon]

I have noticed the fields getting smaller and smaller at Mildura. People aren't interested in making the long trip when they can only run 2nd or 3rd.
You could say he's killing them at Mildura !
Just hope the local club and industry can survive . It's never good to have one person dominating the sport , no matter where it is !

[little fish]

Did anyone see last race at Mildura last week? Greg Cramp drove The Chaplain was fav and sat death, the leader (which was 2nd fav) drifts out on the home turn and completely knocks the fav over, nearly fell, which then knocks over a couple of others including 3rd fav, and the leader goes on to win the race.

Horse on leaders back was 55-1 so no worries about getting run down there.

Driver of winner is cautioned for lack of control. Nothing more.

6 weeks ago Greg Cramp got 4 weeks for drifting out 1/2 a horse from the death on a horse that was under pressure. Never knocked anything over, no horses or humans lives in danger.

As a significant owner in the industry I am finding it difficult not to think it is different rules for different people.

By the way if this post gets deleted by a moderator I will delete my account and never return.

[Messenger]

I just watched it for you. I do not think it was intentional ( what was on his back then irrelevant) as he seemed to lack control throughout. He did not 'completely knock over' even the death horse but seriously checked it and should have got a couple of weeks or more if he had priors.
I could joke that the stewards may have been happy that the Cramps did not win a 7th for the night but I do not think you would find it funny.
PS The mods would only laugh at your final threat - I know, trust me.

[broncobrad]

Well Barry, I watched that race on Friday and at the time thought "now the Cramps know how it feels to be on the receiving end of dirty driving" but fully expected the 8th V 1st protest to carry some weight and some justice prevail with Bretaca being relegated. Protest dismissed, didn't give it another thought.

Until now, after just watching the incident on the home turn on the replay several times, not only am I convinced that Devcic allowed Bretaca to shift out into The Chaplains rightful path, Devcic gave the best right shoulder into the outside horse (his only biggest danger at the stage) that I have ever seen, successfully unbalancing that horse and disrupting the other Cramp horse Pental Cracker which was just building up momentum. The offending driver got a caution only.

In my mind that is just crap stewarding because it looked plain and simple foul driving.

The replay is here on the results page Race 8...make up your own minds.

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=ML060913&ms=vic

[little fish]

Well Barry, I watched that race on Friday and at the time thought "now the Cramps know how it feels to be on the receiving end of dirty driving" but fully expected the 8th V 1st protest to carry some weight and some justice prevail with Bretaca being relegated. Protest dismissed, didn't give it another thought.

Until now, after just watching the incident on the home turn on the replay several times, not only am I convinced that Devcic allowed Bretaca to shift out into The Chaplains rightful path, Devcic gave the best right shoulder into the outside horse (his only biggest danger at the stage) that I have ever seen, successfully unbalancing that horse and disrupting the other Cramp horse Pental Cracker which was just building up momentum. The offending driver got a caution only.

In my mind that is just crap stewarding because it looked plain and simple foul driving.

The replay is here on the results page Race 8...make up your own minds.

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=ML060913&ms=vic

Hooray someone else saw the driver of the leader lean out of his sulky and give Cramp's horse a right shoulder as his horse was only 'severely checking' it.

Messenger you must be blind.

Stewards = in my opinion pathetic job on this occasion.

Me as an owner = struggling big time to not think they have it in for Cramps.

The thing that really annoys me is GC got 4 weeks not long ago for something not half as bad as what happened in this race.

I think I might ring the head steward involved in this meeting and voice to him my queries, as an owner I believe I am entitled to do that.

[Danno]

Hey guys I don't want to seem as if I'm completely defending the drive, but the stipes got one thing right by dismissing the protest, the horse protesting was never going to beat the leader, he was gone turning for home.
Secondly I know the "shoulder" looked crook, actually LOOKED very crook, however, the action was a defensive action rather than foul or agressive, if the driver on the leader/winner didn't shoulder off the other horse one of two things were about to happen
a) the chaplain gets dropped on the deck or
b) the driver of the leader gets tipped out.

so having said that am I sure the driver of the winner got what he deserved?

dunno for sure but if that was my horse he was driving I'd give him a pat on the back for his actions during that incident and a kick up the bum for use of the whip after that!

cheers,
Dan

[gutwagon]

The Mildura trots have been like a roller derby for years now ! Must be the heat up there !

[little fish]

Hey guys I don't want to seem as if I'm completely defending the drive, but the stipes got one thing right by dismissing the protest, the horse protesting was never going to beat the leader, he was gone turning for home.
Secondly I know the "shoulder" looked crook, actually LOOKED very crook, however, the action was a defensive action rather than foul or agressive, if the driver on the leader/winner didn't shoulder off the other horse one of two things were about to happen
a) the chaplain gets dropped on the deck or
b) the driver of the leader gets tipped out.

so having said that am I sure the driver of the winner got what he deserved?

dunno for sure but if that was my horse he was driving I'd give him a pat on the back for his actions during that incident and a kick up the bum for use of the whip after that!

cheers,
Dan

I don't think you can say The Chaplain was definitely gone. Shayne gets his horses rock hard fit so you can't be 100% certain it would not have found something extra down the straight.

Re the winning driver getting what he deserved, he got to keep the win and only a simple caution for the drive. Do you think that is getting 'what he deserved'?

I keep going back to Greg Cramp drifting out a horse on the same bend not long ago, no interference to any other horses, and he got 4 weeks.

It bothers me this troubling perception I have of double standards, it started with the foul driving penalty for Shayne compared to Douglas's for pulling him out of the sulky, then the 4 weeks GC got for drifting out on the home turn at mildura, and now this incident.

Everyone talks about needing more owners, well how can you expect me to stay keen to be putting big bucks in when I have nagging doubt in the back of my mind about these sorts of events. If they rub out the winning driver for 4 weeks I'd think yep level playing field, no bias. But nup he gets a caution, excuse me but ha ha what a joke

[Lethal]

I'm not sure that our opinions regarding the merit of the drive have any relevance other than to promote robust discussion.BUT it might be considered that the drive contravened the rules of Harness Racing: that being rule 163 (1) (a) A driver shall not cause or contribute to any crossing, jostling or interference. AND rule 170 (2) A driver shall not drive in a race with part of the drivers body protruding beyond the sulky.
My memory may be better than some, but many topline drivers have been suspended under these rules.
Different rules for different people?

[Danno]

Barry,
I have had many an occasion to wonder about double standards in my 40 + years in this game, and I might add almost 40 years as a licenced trainer and driver,hobby breeder,owner and administrator so I feel fairly comfortable making the comments I do on this forum, particularly around race driving and training.

you have made no attempt to hide your affection for the Cramp team, and that's entirely up to you mate, but I have no connection/affiliation to anyone down there and I am starting to get the impression you may be pushing some sort of barrow, once again, I will confirm that I am not.

The race we are discussing on this thread, was, as i could see it, set up for the "swoopers" with the leader clearly under pressure from more than one other runner after the blue light went on.......................I don't want to draw conclusions with little or no evidence other than an observation, but I would suggest some people watch the race again from a completely neutral perspective ( as I have) and see if your opinions are still the same.

Cheers,
Dan

[little fish]

Barry,
I have had many an occasion to wonder about double standards in my 40 + years in this game, and I might add almost 40 years as a licenced trainer and driver,hobby breeder,owner and administrator so I feel fairly comfortable making the comments I do on this forum, particularly around race driving and training.

you have made no attempt to hide your affection for the Cramp team, and that's entirely up to you mate, but I have no connection/affiliation to anyone down there and I am starting to get the impression you may be pushing some sort of barrow, once again, I will confirm that I am not.

The race we are discussing on this thread, was, as i could see it, set up for the "swoopers" with the leader clearly under pressure from more than one other runner after the blue light went on.......................I don't want to draw conclusions with little or no evidence other than an observation, but I would suggest some people watch the race again from a completely neutral perspective ( as I have) and see if your opinions are still the same.

Cheers,
Dan
Correct since day one I have been up front outing myself as a Cramp supporter. I would hope that does not lessen the validity of my discussions here though. If there is an genuine issue then it should not matter who is the defender of justice only that justice is the end point to which we are all working towards.

I'm stumped what relevence the tactics of the race has, or whether the race was set up for swoopers or not. To then follow those comments with a suggestion that we all look at the race from a 'completely neutral perspective as you have' ?? Where are you coming/going with that?

Sorry mate but if anyone spoke to me like that across a negotiating table in business I'd have alarm bells ringing in my head all over the place.

I'm still staggered that he did not cop a suspension when you consider what Greg Cramp got not so long ago. In my opinion it was the right shoulder bump by the winning driver that unbalanced Cramp's horse the most and which then cost it any chance of balancing up into the straight. Even you said it looked VERY CROOK.

But you'd give him a pat on the back for it if you were the owner of that horse?

Cripes I hope mine don't come up against your team too often in a charge to the line!

[Danno]

Correct since day one I have been up front outing myself as a Cramp supporter. I would hope that does not lessen the validity of my discussions here though. If there is an genuine issue then it should not matter who is the defender of justice only that justice is the end point to which we are all working towards.



I'm stumped what relevence the tactics of the race has, or whether the race was set up for swoopers or not. To then follow those comments with a suggestion that we all look at the race from a 'completely neutral perspective as you have' ?? Where are you coming/going with that?

Sorry mate but if anyone spoke to me like that across a negotiating table in business I'd have alarm bells ringing in my head all over the place.

I'm still staggered that he did not cop a suspension when you consider what Greg Cramp got not so long ago. In my opinion it was the right shoulder bump by the winning driver that unbalanced Cramp's horse the most and which then cost it any chance of balancing up into the straight.
Even you said it looked VERY CROOK.


But you'd give him a pat on the back for it if you were the owner of that horse?

Cripes I hope mine don't come up against your team too often in a charge to the line!


Barry, perhaps I have not explained myself very well,

I'm stumped what relevence the tactics of the race has, or whether the race was set up for swoopers or not. To then follow those comments with a suggestion that we all look at the race from a 'completely neutral perspective as you have' ?? Where are you coming/going with that?

If you are stumped as to the relevance of that statement, then sorry mate I can't say anything more, other than " look at it from a completely neutral perpective". Again.

Even you said it looked VERY CROOK.

"even you" smacks of some sort of biased viewpoint, which I made quite clear I have no association whatsoever with any of the players in this incident.
The rest of that statement was correct, I said it LOOKED VERY CROOK, I also preceded that with my observations as an experienced driver that the action was not foul or aggressive, but in fact had avoided a far worse outcome no matter who's side you are sitting on, and YES if someone driving for me did that to avoid a dangerous situation in the home straight OF COURSE I would give him at pat on the back.

I don't like judging people without knowing them, but I'm a little offended that you have selected what you want from my post and perhaps tried to make it sound anti CRAMP CAMP, I made comments on what I saw based around my knowledge as a trainer and driver, I am beginning to think you are making your comments based around your pocket.

But of course I could be wrong, and so could you Barry, and if I was a punting man ( and I'm not) I wouldn't back you mate.

Cheers,
Dan

[little fish]

Barry, perhaps I have not explained myself very well,

I'm stumped what relevence the tactics of the race has, or whether the race was set up for swoopers or not. To then follow those comments with a suggestion that we all look at the race from a 'completely neutral perspective as you have' ?? Where are you coming/going with that?

If you are stumped as to the relevance of that statement, then sorry mate I can't say anything more, other than " look at it from a completely neutral perpective". Again.

Not explained yourself very well? Mate you did not explain that comment at all.

You can't say anything more? Yes you can say more, you can answer the question and detail exactly why it is relevant.



Even you said it looked VERY CROOK.

"even you" smacks of some sort of biased viewpoint, which I made quite clear I have no association whatsoever with any of the players in this incident.
The rest of that statement was correct, I said it LOOKED VERY CROOK, I also preceded that with my observations as an experienced driver that the action was not foul or aggressive, but in fact had avoided a far worse outcome no matter who's side you are sitting on, and YES if someone driving for me did that to avoid a dangerous situation in the home straight OF COURSE I would give him at pat on the back.

I don't like judging people without knowing them, but I'm a little offended that you have selected what you want from my post and perhaps tried to make it sound anti CRAMP CAMP, I made comments on what I saw based around my knowledge as a trainer and driver, I am beginning to think you are making your comments based around your pocket.

But of course I could be wrong, and so could you Barry, and if I was a punting man ( and I'm not) I wouldn't back you mate.

Cheers,
DanDanno,

I didn't say you were anti-Cramp. To be honest I think you are doing a better job at suggesting that by getting so defensive...jumping at shadows....

You have gone to great lengths to stress your impartiality, and then gone on to subtley take the side opposing the Cramps, whether that be stewards or opposing drivers. I have been up front in declaring my loyalties but have tried to discuss from an objective perspective.

Early in this thread I said if Shayne had a brainfade on Imtheguy he deserves a good kick in the arse. And he got one. 6 months driving is fair if you ask me for a serious driving offence like that.

However any kick in the arse needs to be in line with past penalties for similar offences. And his initial penalty was not.

Incidentally I am not a blind supporter of anything....trainers, friends, footy teams, or even family.

Like I said I am finding it hard to not think they are being treated differently. I am not accusing the stewards of anything improper I am sure most of them try their best to maintain composure and impartiality - but they are only human - and when you look at these specific examples of 'similar' incidents where the Cramps have been hit harder than the other offenders it sure does make a guy like me think about it a bit, if you know what I mean.

[Danno]

Done trying to explain it to you Barry,
Cheers,
Dan

[little fish]

Done trying to explain it to you Barry,
Cheers,
Dan
This is just grandstanding rubbish now Danno, you haven't really tried to explain your comment at all.

[Richard prior]

Get a translator then.

[aussiebreno]

This thread is a bit of a yawn.

I haven't been this bored since a full card of mile and a half SS conditioned racing.

[Toohard]

this thread is a bit of a yawn.

I haven't been this bored since a full card of mile and a half ss conditioned racing.

:D:D:D:D
With 45 minutes between races!

[Messenger]

Runners (often multiple) in 8 of the 9 races at Mildura tonight and went home with 4 wins and 4 seconds (including a quinella). Have we ever seen such domination of a track?

[Messenger]

The domination turned to near perfection at Mildura tonight - lucky for other trainers he only had 7 runners in 4 races tonight. He won all 4 races, got the Trifecta in his 3 horse race and the Quinella in his 2 horse race. Unbelievable. He now has 46 winners for the season and I would hazard a guess that 40 of them have been at Mildura. I guess you are going to be happy staying in a small pond when the eating is so good

[Messenger]

Bad night for the stable at Mildura tonight - only won 3 of the 4 races they contested

[Messenger]

Shayne first winner since back driving - Copthewrath LOL

[barney]

Suspended again .Have taken Mildura off my punting list owing to his domination not good for the sport

[brent_L]

Suspended again .Have taken Mildura off my punting list owing to his domination not good for the sport

I don't quite understand this Brian.....u are talking about punting and the stable is dominating, then surely there is $$ to be had??
While I'm at it, I've never really got my head around 'most' posts on this thread. What's Cramp supposed to do in relation to his 'dominance'??........go four back the pegs into a pocket & share the riches, I think/hope not. I'm just a punter/lover of the sport and if I'm missing something here I'd love someone to point it out to me. Cheers

[barney]

Mate horses start short priced which is not for me.When he has more than one horse in a race team driving possibility makes me wary.I like races which are open i also dont bet anywhere that the McCarthys are for same reasons and im not alone in that.
Good luck to him for building the team to be so strong in that area but as i say it is not good for sport.

[brent_L]

Respect your opinion Brian, especially not punting with multiple trained runners in a race......I preach this to anyone who'll listen. I just don't understand how it's no good for the sport, but I'm not an owner or trainer.

[barney]

Why its not good for the sport Brent is the average punter wont bet on a race where there is an odds on pop and Cramps horses are usualy odds on.The industry has a high occurence of this.And like it or not the sport has always been known as the redhots or cheating chariots.

I have no idea what can be done

[aussiebreno]

I don't quite understand this Brian.....u are talking about punting and the stable is dominating, then surely there is $$ to be had??
While I'm at it, I've never really got my head around 'most' posts on this thread. What's Cramp supposed to do in relation to his 'dominance'??........go four back the pegs into a pocket & share the riches, I think/hope not. I'm just a punter/lover of the sport and if I'm missing something here I'd love someone to point it out to me. Cheers
I never quite understand the fallacy of not betting because of a shorty. Just because there is a shorty the markets are still framed to the same %. Same amount of value to be found. Meanwhile sports betting just keeps on increasing market share even though you have faves in the red every single time.

[brent_L]

Agree with u Brendan. A man much smarter than I (Dominic Beirne) once told me that there was definitely $$ in betting the really short ones. That said, I definitely get white knuckle fever when I do, Black Caviar aside......it's very painful when they get beat.
Since betfair has come along I've always wondered how the math would turn out if one was to bet (or lay) every runner (all 3 codes) that started at 1/4 or shorter. Someone out there might know.

[barney]

Unortunately guys the average punter who is not a rusted on Harness supporter has other options to laying odds on.
Was told when i was a youngster (a long time ago ) 2 things to never do in life
1 lay odds on
2 Run up stairs.
Have followed those rules all my life to old to change now.

[Messenger]

Agree with u Brendan. A man much smarter than I (Dominic Beirne) once told me that there was definitely $$ in betting the really short ones. That said, I definitely get white knuckle fever when I do, Black Caviar aside......it's very painful when they get beat.
Since betfair has come along I've always wondered how the math would turn out if one was to bet (or lay) every runner (all 3 codes) that started at 1/4 or shorter. Someone out there might know.

I have commented on this before - I would not fancy doing it for the trots as long odds on are often beaten (when not Cramp horses) and nobody bats an eyelid. Would not know about the dogs but at the races it rarely happens - it is the main racing story in the next day's newspaper if it does.

[Richard prior]

There was a guy in Sydney years ago known as The Fireman. He would take the shorts on the gallopers every week, But had some serious cash to back him up. It was not uncommon for him to have 100k on an odds on shot and he made a pretty fair living out of it. Not much value backing the short priced favourites, But if your clever enough, There's value in the exotics.

[Messenger]

No doubt the usual treble or better for SJC at Mildura tonight

[Messenger]

4 Winners tonight to now be 58 for the most winners in Vic this season ( to Emma Stewart's 57 ). I know he made the drivers invitational viable tonight but is he scaring other trainers off? With these races being non penalty you would not expect one trainer to have 3 out of 9 runners in one heat and 4 out of 6 in another (he also had 3 of 6 runners in another race).

[2minuteman]

There was a guy in Sydney years ago known as The Fireman. He would take the shorts on the gallopers every week, But had some serious cash to back him up. It was not uncommon for him to have 100k on an odds on shot and he made a pretty fair living out of it. Not much value backing the short priced favourites, But if your clever enough, There's value in the exotics.

Name was Eddie Birchley and he went broke pretty quick.

[Richard prior]

Think he was around for a while Ron, but as you say, he went broke pretty quick. I guess could say, nothing's really a certainty no matter how short the odds.

[barney]

Again never even looked at Mildura for reasons explained in this thread.If i a died in the wool harness fan gives it a miss imagine what the not so keen do avoid it like a plague.

[aussiebreno]

Shayne first winner since back driving - Copthewrath LOL
Adding to irony by driving Copthewrath, its granddam Southern Sugar (a sire stakes winning mare) is by Popular Alm. Messenger would probably say not since V Knight at Kilmore has anybody dominated a track like Cramp at Mildura!
Possibly the best performed line descending from the great Popular Alm?

[Messenger]

I don't remember Vinny getting a treble every meeting Brendan - another treble tonight (including a first four) to bring up 62 Vic winners for SJC so far this season - I reckon about 50 of them would be at home. Could a trainer ever win 100 races at the one track in a season ?!

[Richard prior]

Hi Kev, I reckon it's a distinct possibility that S.Cramp will win 100 races on his home track this season or run very close. He just seems to be in a league of his own at Mildura and there's still plenty of time left in the season.

[Messenger]

Form analysis for tonight at you know where sees Gareth Hall tipping 6 winners for SJC. He only has runners in 7 of the 8 races but we are probably looking at a minimum of 4 winners

[Messenger]

Last night was the night to bet against the man. There were two training doubles in the first four races but SJC did not notch his only winner until the 6th and had 4 favs beaten including 3 odds on.

[BenScadden]

Form analysis for tonight at you know where sees Gareth Hall tipping 6 winners for SJC. He only has runners in 7 of the 8 races but we are probably looking at a minimum of 4 winnersI'm not sure Gareth is the best person to offer an unbiased view of Shayne's runners ...

[Messenger]

'the way Restrepo does not like to race' got another treble tonight at a track 553km from Melbourne :D

[Messenger]

Only 4 tonight but I discovered SJC trained 112 winners at Mildura last season so I am no longer excited at the thought of him notching 100 there this season. (:D Brenno)

Checking out the 5 or more wins chronicles your realize 2013 had to be a bloody miracle season for SJC as he trained either 5 or 6 winners on NINE occasions (all Mildura of course). Now up to 11 bags spread over 18mths, he is the greatest of all time.

Julie Weidemann notched up 10 bags over 8yrs while Steve Turnbull came again last year with 2 bags to take his tally to 9 bags over 25yrs. Nobody else is even close to SJC despite illustrious careers.

[Greg Hando]

Gary Hall jnr has 13 so far

[Messenger]

Gary Hall jnr has 13 so far

You are on the wrong page Greg - I am talking Trainers, Gary Hall jnr has 0

[Messenger]

Maastricht brought up a treble for SJC at Mildura tonight. Hard to believe she paid $6.60 when she won a Gp3 race in 1.55.3 at Melton last start and also broke the Swan Hill track record recently AND this is an SJC horse at MILDURA!

Mind you it was his least fancied runner in the 5th, Wongalea Bingo that started his treble - paying $21.60
It is pretty handy having 3 in the race so that you can burn the favourite and still fill the quinella
http://media.harness.org.au/vic/MLC25031402.wmv

[broncobrad]

The obligatory QDT beside Mr Cramps name in the abbreviated Stewards Report. Does Queen Mab usually race in that manner?

[Messenger]

FIVE! at Mildura yesterday. It almost seems absurd when you consider that there are only 15 trainers who have trained 20 or more Vic winners in the first 7 months of this season

[Richard prior]

Astonishing effort. Hey Kev, Go to the bottom of the main page and read Downtime by Admin, You get a mention for your good work in getting the site up and going again. Well done mate.

[Messenger]

Astonishing effort. Hey Kev, Go to the bottom of the main page and read Downtime by Admin, You get a mention for your good work in getting the site up and going again. Well done mate.
and to think I was nearly banned last week! :D ha ha

[Danno]

and to think i was nearly banned last week! :d ha ha

sssssshhhhhh!!!!!!! Lol

[Messenger]

May 1 and he has trained over 100 wins for the season

[Messenger]

I hear Mr Cramp has a sure fire winner in transit to his stables right now. If he has never had a champion as good as Richard Henry prior to this, then it is about to happen soon ;)

[HaroldParker]

No disrespect to Shayne Cramp's skill in the sulky but he'll get a few more winners if Nathan Jack does the bulk of the driving.

[Messenger]

Race 6 at Mildura today should have been renamed the SJC Benefit
He had 5/7 acceptors after scratchings he has 4/5 runners!
Ridiculous

[aussiebreno]

Race 6 at Mildura today should have been renamed the SJC Benefit
He had 5/7 acceptors after scratchings he has 4/5 runners!
Ridiculous
Qld races during week Manzellman had 14/14 noms 9/9 acceptances and 8/8 runners in a race.

[doncht]

Race 6 at Mildura today should have been renamed the SJC Benefit

Good one, they lived up to their expectation. https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/smile4.png

[Messenger]

Nah he missed out on $142 by getting 5th not 4th :D