Sprint Lanes - Albion Park

[HarnessFan]

Every winner on Saturday night was a leader or a sprint lane horse.
This is straight after a fresh track resurface.

Issues:-
1. Reduced number of chances each race (counter intuitive??)
2. Reduced appeal for participants (why be dished out with such an unfair handicap??)
3. Reduced spectacle which is harness racing - the tactical battle, the joy of winning when the driver in front rated the horse perfectly, the honest battle for the lead
4. Stereotyped horse that can earn e.g. runners must have gate speed
5. Adverse impact on breeding (due to point 4 - easier to buy NZ horse that suits perfectly)

This battle is unfortunately impossible to win but I still share my frustration.

[Mighty Atom]

Hi Jeroen,
My opinion is that sprint lanes are unnecessary on big tracks like Albion Park and far too much of an advantage on smaller tracks like Gloucester Park - if it had one.

[Grinder]

Have never seen the need myself.
Do the gallops ever have sprint lanes?

[G-Mac]

Have never seen the need myself.
Do the gallops ever have sprint lanes?

Yes, they have used cutaways in the past.

[broncobrad]

Pretty sure they have cutaways in WA gallops and also at Wyong...please correct me if not. There are plenty of horses trailing leaders at AP that can't take advantage of the sprint lane either Jeroen, because they either just are not good enough or cannot get their momentum up in time. Have you noticed that those horses that do win using the lane are really only asserting their superiority late in their race. There are backers on both sides of the argument. I thought when introduced that it would shut up the knockers of the sport who would bag how easy it was to lock up a horse if they were dead. I think in that regard, more often than not, that the horse that looked to be full of running behind the leader, when presented with the lane has proven not to be the case.

I would be one of the few on this forum that thinks a sprint lane would be an asset to Menangle. A while back when the debate was raging, the club produced some surprising figures in relation to the trailing horses ability to obtain a clear run and have an opportunity to improve its position. From memory, over the period they sampled they said something like only 4 horses did not get an opportunity. I was astounded. The ones that stick in my mind are when the trailer goes for the half a run and gets chopped down or where the leader drifts all over the shop in an attempt to hold the advantage. Don't matter what I say, there will never be a sprint lane there.

Look at Melton where there is a struck match between all the M1 -M2 horses, they go around like a herd of sheep trying to stay warm, the sprint lane presents and they go over the line so close together you would think there was a lion waiting to pounce on the one that strayed from the herd.

Like Rod said about Gloucester, a sprint lane would be too much of an advantage. They don't have one and the three wide line kicks in early and ensures there is genuine tempo and some pretty exciting racing like it used to be...a war of attrition.

That old sprintlane chestnut just keeps popping up though...

[HISGEN65]

Purely from the hobbyist point of view I would be a fan of sprint lanes if there was a better & fairer barrier draw system..!!!

[Chariots]

And that barrier draw system would be.

[HISGEN65]

Surely in this day & age with todays technology there is a better system than the RBD

[Chariots]

My observation is that when any state tries to handicap through barrier draws the participants don't like it.

[Danno]

With all due respect Ray, handicaping through barrier draws has been going on since Adam was a boy ( I think that's when we started pandering to the commercial breeders a little too much).
in other words, shortly after the advent of majority mobile starts, I think that would be around mid eighties...some brainwave came up with the idea of "handicapping through barrier draws" in mobile starts as they had been previously able to do so via distance in stands.

there remains an inherent problem which I think many participants would agree with, the current ( NSW anyway) PBD system assumes 1 is the best draw and 10 is the worst regardless of which track you are on and which distance you are racing over, which is VERY far from actuals in many cases.

Some ( thats probably many) are gunna groan when I say ,once again,.......the fairest sytem we had for handicapping was standing start racing with distance based handicaps, the move to mostly mobile racing has proven an abject failure in my opinion....when the naysayers come out in the droves to defend mobile racing, take note of who they are,what shape their involvement is in this game and how long they've been around.

Mostly mobile racing has been ONE of the factors which has made our racing product more difficult to sell.

Cheers,
Dan

[aussiebreno]

With all due respect Ray, handicaping through barrier draws has been going on since Adam was a boy ( I think that's when we started pandering to the commercial breeders a little too much).
in other words, shortly after the advent of majority mobile starts, I think that would be around mid eighties...some brainwave came up with the idea of "handicapping through barrier draws" in mobile starts as they had been previously able to do so via distance in stands.

there remains an inherent problem which I think many participants would agree with, the current ( NSW anyway) PBD system assumes 1 is the best draw and 10 is the worst regardless of which track you are on and which distance you are racing over, which is VERY far from actuals in many cases.

Some ( thats probably many) are gunna groan when I say ,once again,.......the fairest sytem we had for handicapping was standing start racing with distance based handicaps, the move to mostly mobile racing has proven an abject failure in my opinion....when the naysayers come out in the droves to defend mobile racing, take note of who they are,what shape their involvement is in this game and how long they've been around.

Mostly mobile racing has been ONE of the factors which has made our racing product more difficult to sell.

Cheers,
Dan
Without knowing it you provided a very good case for mobile starts! You inferred the younger industry participants like thr mobile start. This is exactly why it is a better alternative than ss. Because the younger generations is what will keep the sport going in the future so its best to keep with the times!

[Danno]

Gotta good laugh there Brendan,
please explain???? ( hate to give her any air) BUT!!!,

where did I "infer" the younger industry participants preferred mobiles?

oops! sorry!! "when Adam was a boy"

Cheers, Dan,
still cacking my guts out

[aussiebreno]

Gotta good laugh there Brendan,
please explain???? ( hate to give her any air) BUT!!!,

where did I "infer" the younger industry participants preferred mobiles?

oops! sorry!! "when Adam was a boy"

Cheers, Dan,
still cacking my guts out

Take not of...how long theyve been around.

[Danno]

I suppose it could well be taken that way Brenno, however the intention in the comment was to point out the limited experience with Standing Starts as spectators,punters,participants etc.

The people who are still around that grew up with SS will,I believe, tell you SS racing had better handicapping, less odds on pops, around about the same % of horses missing "the kick" as does mobile racing these days.

It was nothing like the shambles you witness most of the time now because the horses,trainers and drivers were doing it all the time and were hence better trained and practiced.

Totally agree that the younger folk will be those taking the game into the future, my hope is there will still be some substance left in the game for them.

cheers,
Dan

[Danno]

Any opinions on the make up of the Tamworth fields and the barrier draws?

The aim is to make racing more competitive (less odds on favs) and to give many horses in every race the chance of earning money, due to racing against like horses regardless of a class achieved over time.

http://www.harness.org.au/fields.cfm?mc=TA260413

The proof will be in the eating I guess Adam, let's wait and see what happens, at the very least it's another angle to even up fields, the make up and barrier draws of race five in particular will make for interesting betting and racing.

Cheers,
Dan

[Danno]

Four favorites home and 4 "roughies", I think it's worth noting 2 of the beaten fav's were driven in a style unfamiliar to the Brian Hancock's of the world.

How did the races hold turnover wise Adam?

[moncalier]

Jeroen,

The following week again all winners sat on the pegs and in 5 races all placegetters sat 1,2,3 on the pegs. There is definitely a problem. I don't think it can all be blamed on the passing lane as the design of the track is also a contributing factor. Horses which race wide on the top bend lose ground. If you watch a replay of the 4 year old mares Triad final you will note that the second favourite Suki Suki, a noted brilliant finisher, sat in last position one off the pegs then pulled 4 and 5 wide at the 350 metre mark to finish well and come 4th. The horse that raced immediately to its inside, Jazzy Jasper stuck to the pegs and finished 5th, a mere metre behind Suki Suki. Suki Suki is an M1 C9 whilst Jazzy Jasper is a C1! Rocklea may have closed but the racing style lives on at Albion Park. Until something is done to redress this track bias I suggest that owners of promising run on horses send them south to compete at Menangle and Newcastle as they will have more chance. The construction of a new 1000 metre track at Bathurst is another incentive to send these horses to NSW.

[HarnessFan]

Hi John
I am not totally against sprint lanes, I can see that the impact is not so detrimental at Globe Derby (as an example).
Your comments regarding Albion Park are correct and the banking has been inadequate for so long.
I started the thread commenting that Albion Park had just had a track resurface - so the problem must be fundamental to the track design.
I occasionally go to participant meetings (BOTRA) and raise the issue, it is so frustrating to argue the point.
So many really like the concept of waiting for a draw and a chance to win.

[Richard prior]

Hi Dan, I've just read your reply to the Barrier draw situation and yes, the old days when we had the better horses starting off handicaps in standing start races were very fair for all included. I think the way to go would be to give the best horse in a field the worst possible draw. If you have a field of 12 starters, you could have rankings for the horses, ability wise, and rankings for the barrier draws, from worst to best.The better horses could draw the worst barriers in order of ability,say the best horse draws outside the back row, the 2nd best horse draws outside the front row and so on. I'm sure that I will cop a bit of flak over this, but it would certainly make the racing more interesting and fairer for all included. It would really make the betting a lot more interesting and as they say, the cream will still rise to the surface, the better horse can still win, but all the horse have a fairer chance. Nothing worse than seeing an odds on pop just roll around in an exercise gallop, after drawing say 1 to 4, and bolt in and pay $1.20 and money back, this is not a spectacle and a spectacle is what we need to create.

[Danno]

Nothing worse than seeing an odds on pop just roll around in an exercise gallop, after drawing say 1 to 4, and bolt in and pay $1.20 and money back, this is not a spectacle and a spectacle is what we need to create.


Thanks for your thoughts Richard, we are getting a fair way off the original point of this thread ( thanks in part to yours truly)however it is good to hear from someone who understands that standing start racing was and can be a fairer handicapping system whilst delivering a better wagering product, so few of the people contributing to this forum actually understand this as so few were actively involved before mostly mobile racing became entrenched.

The preferential barrier system in place currently does assist with handicapping however, it does at the very least, require significant adjustment for a couple of reasons.

1) Barriers 10 through to 1 in that order are not necessarily worst to best.....it depends on the track you are racing on and the starting point for the distance you are racing over.

2) Conditions for races are allowing better horses to very lightly handicapped when the barrier draw is the only handicapping tool. eg. C2 to C4 PDC. in many cases there are as many C4 horse as C2 and some of the C4 horse are starting in better barrier positions on the front line than the C2's.

I think most people want to see open racing where there are many chances in each race not just a small handful , so I think it's more about getting people to agree on how that is delivered in an era where there is a perception that our industry locally should try to mirror what happens in North American ( when frankly in my opinion they have had the bull by the tail since the days of Dan Patch and Star Pointer).

I think we should take the best of what's available everywhere to enhance our sport and not copy anything but use our local strengths, knock the edges off with some new thinking and protect our image/brand ( which REALLY needs to rebuilt)

Cheers,
Dan

[2minuteman]

I think we should take the best of what's available everywhere to enhance our sport and not copy anything but use our local strengths, knock the edges off with some new thinking and protect our image/brand ( which REALLY needs to rebuilt)
Cheers,
Dan
Hi Dan,agree but this would require some original and forward thinking and the chances of that would be???

[Danno]

Yeah Ron,
no doubt it is a hard ask to "come up with" original/forward thinking, but don't you think of all games this is the one that has proven itself time and time again to be creative?

think about it...the various wierd shoeing to overcome gait issues, the bits of harness we take for granted these days, like spreaders, go straights,knee boots and suspenders,scapling boots,various widths of sulkies, pull down blinds, hopple shorteners........etc,etc, can someone please tell me why the new thinking cannot come from within....Harness trainers and people who have involved themselves in this game are amoung the most innovative thinkers on this planet, they just need some incentive to air their thoughts and some filters to channel the thinking into actionable, digestible, plans.

Cheers,
Dan

[broncobrad]

Can only describe last Saturday nights experience at Albion Park as less than stimulating. As the thread alludes to, the style of racing is at best boring and predictable. If you are not on the pace or trailing your chances are almost nought. Bar the Claimer and the last race (where they went too quick early) every other race was taken out by a horse at the pointy end. How frustrating it must be to owners with horses not gifted with any early brilliance who are at a distinct disadvantage, when as someone else said, it is Rocklea all over again but at a metropolitan track.

Whilst it was a run of the mill meeting at AP with the winter carnival just around the corner, I would like to know if the committee members are happy with the way these meetings are run. Since the appointment of the CEO Ross Dowd, from a SPECTATORS VIEW only I haven't seen one innovation to make the experience more enjoyable for the punter. Nothing that makes me want to run back for more. No bookmaker. A small make shift betting and viewing area that becomes a bottle neck for committee members and punters alike. Seriously, it is a disgrace and only makes the choice easier to stay at home or go to a club or pub that has a better set up. This is YOUR product and this is how you treat YOUR own customer? Someone is not earning their money. As I said earlier it was only an ordinary meeting but what incentives are in place to get even the hardiest of fans to come to the track. The staff do a great job and the tuckers okay. But there are only a handful of people in the scattered in the stand...and its a metropolitan track, with the atmosphere of a cemetery. On the other hand, tiny little Peak Hill (population around 1,000) in central NSW would have had more people on track for their Sunday meeting...and the racing was a lot more exciting, wouldn't you say so Greg.

Its a different time and I know AP is trying to claw back lost ground from the previous racing regime, the grandstand issue is a huge problem, there is a lot more rivalry for the entertainment dollar but what are you doing to get some arses back on seats? As bad as the situation is, you can still work with what you already have to improve things in the interim.

Found a couple of clips from back in the late nineties of a younger Peter V'Landys who was starting to make a name for himself. You have got to admire his drive and attention to detail and his attitude to succeed. Hopefully someone gets the message. If not, then enjoy the nostalgia of Harold Park. The Gamblers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30C1j610NI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCLW1KjZJjI

[HISGEN65]

& to add insult into injury Brad,in regards to making going to the trots attractive,we are losing arguably QLD's best harness racing facility the Gold Coast..

[HarnessFan]

Thanks Brad, I can remember going to Rocklea every Saturday afternoon.
Rocklea delivered a tremendous experience to the punter and offered participants with excitement and atmosphere that enticed involvement in this wonderful industry.

I think the Albion Park experience, does not go close to replicating the old Rocklea entertainment.

I realise that there are legislation issues regarding multiple metro venue concurrently, but if Albion Park metro was held on Sky Channel 2 on a Saturday afternoon, they would triple the attendance and the turnover.

[Toohard]

& to add insult into injury Brad,in regards to making going to the trots attractive,we are losing arguably QLD's best harness racing facility the Gold Coast..

Gold Coast is a great facility. Son and I went twice when on holidays up there recently. Sit behind the glass and have a feed and watch the races. Great grandstand (with roof) and the racing was terrific.

Where we were staying was about 2 mile from the track and the people there didn't know it existed! Two of them didn't know what harness racing was!

Guess one the reasons for the 'attendance'. Check out the crowd in the betting ring.
183

[Danno]

Found a couple of clips from back in the late nineties of a younger Peter V'Landys who was starting to make a name for himself. You have got to admire his drive and attention to detail and his attitude to succeed. Hopefully someone gets the message. If not, then enjoy the nostalgia of Harold Park. The Gamblers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30C1j610NI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCLW1KjZJjI

Thanks for that Brad, it's unfortunate that we lost Peter to the thorougbreds, they could see the talent and bought it, gotta say his office looked too much like mine!

disappointing report about AP,someone needs to take charge before the game disappears up there, I have no idea about their deeper problems, but it hasn't looked good for a long time, one of our former posters thought that the change of state government would fix things up there, but maybe they sacked too many public servants to create the necessary change!

cheers,
Dan

[broncobrad]

G'day James, whats the timeframe and plan for the GC track? Tweed Heads gone, Rocklea gone, give me some hope James.

[HISGEN65]

Time for a "Packer" type intervention...."World Series Harness Racing"..Build it & they will come...seriously mate who knows,I am to the stage where I am happy just to have a place to race each week where ever it is.
I trialed one at the GC yesterday & thought man this place is awesome...one of the best nights Ive ever had at a race meeting EVER was ID at the Gold Coast..its a crying shame.I tell ya one thing Brad,alot of hobbyists like myself never underestimated the damage the demise of Rocklea was going to cause to harness racing QLD...it was the entry level vehicle that has been sadly missed...so many new owners,drivers,trainers started at Rocklea..I know I did..if it wasnt for Rocklea I would be doing something else..IMHO it's no co-incidence that the slow decline of the sport in QLD started around that time.

[HISGEN65]

I might add that breeding in QLD declined,IMHO,because of the demise of Rocklea & the demise of true weekend racing for the hobbyist..the local QLD based stallions at the time were serving their fair share of mares because breeders knew if their offspring werent stars they had a good chance of going around week in week out at places like Rocklea..as is it is now if your off spring cant run sub 2 min as a 2yo they have no-where to go..hence why less breeding in QLD to "value" QLD based stallions..

[HarnessFan]

Hi James,

A "Packer" type intervention would involve common sense innovations like :-

a) Dividend bonuses for people that attend racetracks (e.g. equivalent to 10% takeout not 18%)
b) Single national tote
c) Industry owned broadcasting channel dedicated to Harness
d) Ability to race on Saturday afternoons independent of other codes
e) National streamlined administration where one entity controls basics such as registrations and prizemoney distribution
f) Attain critical mass of attendance where bookies can once again operate
g) Good food and people paying to get in
h) Participants getting a decent return

Alas, I have almost given up hope - it appears the HRA and the states have one priority and that is to protect their turf. The statewide legislation mess is just too hard to untangle.

[broncobrad]

& to add insult into injury Brad,in regards to making going to the trots attractive,we are losing arguably QLD's best harness racing facility the Gold Coast..

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=107123

Tell me this is not a rerun of an old Yes Minister episode. Doesn't this teflon treatment of the Gold Coast club put you in mind of Sir Humphrey advising PM Jim as to how to pass the buck in regard to where the responsibility for the GC's impending demise will lay. Give 'em hell Barry Grimsey, I hope this does not become another injustice dished out to the barely existing presence of harness racing in Queensland. Make as much noise as you can.

[HISGEN65]

Surely in this day & age with todays technology there is a better system than the RBD
Gate 1 two features in a row for the $1.00 fav...RBD working fairly?

[aussiebreno]

Gate 1 two features in a row for the $1.00 fav...RBD working fairly?
The new Divisive!

In No Mans Land drawn Race 1 No 1 twice in a row as well.